0:03

For those not already familiar with the story

0:05

of Marty tank Cliffe, his case began

0:07

on the night of September six, when

0:10

Marty was just about to start his senior

0:13

year of high school in an affluent

0:15

area of Long Island, New York. Marty's

0:17

father was an entrepreneur and investor

0:19

who was playing poker with some friends and business

0:22

associates in the house. That night, Marty

0:25

awoke to two absolutely

0:27

gruesome scenes in which both

0:29

of his loving parents had been brutally beaten

0:32

and stabbed. His mother was dead,

0:34

his father was dying. When authorities arrived,

0:36

they kept him separate from any

0:39

of the adults in his life as

0:41

they focused their investigations solely

0:43

on Marty instead of Marty's

0:45

father's business partner, Jerry Stearman,

0:48

who all signs pointed to

0:50

being the obvious suspect in

0:52

this awful crime. In

0:54

our original two thousand seventeen release

0:57

of Marty's story, we touched on many

0:59

of these details, but at that time,

1:02

with ongoing civil litigation, we

1:04

were not at liberty to delve more deeply

1:07

into the details of the reinvestigation

1:09

of Marty's case that ultimately led to his

1:11

exoneration. In this episode.

1:13

You'll hear excerpts of that original interview,

1:15

which included both Marty and false confession

1:18

experts Paul Cassine, to set the stage

1:20

for not only the evidence and witnesses

1:22

that made Marty's freedom possible, as

1:24

well as all the amazing things

1:26

Marty has been able to accomplish since winning his freedom,

1:29

but also what Marty intends

1:31

to do to bring closure to this harrowing

1:34

tragedy. This is

1:37

Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flom.

1:48

Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction with Jason

1:50

Flam. Especially

1:53

excited today because I have two people

1:55

who I consider to be well, let's

1:57

just call it what it is. They're heroes of mine, but

2:00

for very different sets of reasons. Marty

2:02

Tankleff is here today. Marty is an

2:04

exonoree who was wrongfully

2:07

convicted of murdering his parents, UM,

2:09

which I get the chills just hearing myself

2:12

say that. UM. And he's

2:14

going to share his remarkable

2:16

story of going through

2:18

what could be considered one of the most traumatic

2:21

experiences that any human being could

2:23

ever endure and his subsequent

2:26

triumph post exoneration. You

2:28

will be amazed at at what he's

2:30

been able to accomplish and overcome. We

2:32

also have today Saw Casson. Saw

2:35

pioneered in the eighties the scientific study

2:37

of false confessions by introducing

2:39

a taxonomy that distinguished between three

2:41

types of false confessions, voluntary,

2:44

compliant, and internalized that is universally

2:46

accepted today. He has

2:48

recently studied forensic confirmation

2:50

biases and the impact that confessions

2:53

have on judges, juries, lay witnesses,

2:55

forensic science examiners, and the plea bargaining

2:57

process. He is widely considered

3:00

the foremost expert

3:01

on false confession. So welcome both

3:04

of you. Thanks for coming in and joining us

3:06

today. Thank you for having us. Marty,

3:08

Let's start with you, So let's go back

3:11

to you grew up in Long Island. I

3:13

grew up in an affluent area called Belta, New

3:15

York, which is a little hamlet in Portrepson,

3:18

New York, north Shore, Suffolk

3:20

County. I went to Portrefs

3:22

in high school, where the norm was

3:25

we drove nice cars, we went on boats.

3:28

And what happened to me was not something

3:30

myself or anyone in my neighborhood could

3:32

have ever imagined. No, no one could

3:35

imagine it. Um. You had a happy childhood,

3:38

nuclear family, right, you and your sister. Your

3:40

parents idyllic a little bit more idyllic

3:42

because I was adopted, so

3:45

my parents were older. So a

3:47

lot of what we did growing up, my father

3:49

lived vicariously through me because

3:51

he didn't have a very good childhood. So

3:54

you know, we had the boats, the a t v s, We

3:56

traveled a lot. People used to joke

3:58

that I was a spoiled kid, and I was, but

4:01

my father instill amazing work

4:03

values in me. I was working since I was probably eleven

4:06

or twelve years old, and he was the bagel king, right.

4:08

My father was an entrepreneur who

4:11

invested with Jerry Stewarman,

4:13

who was then known as the bagel King of Long

4:16

Island. My father had invested

4:18

over a half a million dollars with Jerry and his bagel

4:21

stores and horses, and

4:23

in the summer of night, their

4:25

relationship significantly deteriorated.

4:27

What I later learned was that we believe

4:30

my father learned that the bagel businesses

4:32

may have been a money wandering operation

4:35

for Jerry's son, Todd's drug dealing business.

4:37

We're talking hard drugs. Todd

4:40

was arrested, went to prison

4:42

for possession of cocaine, marijuana

4:45

and other drugs, and he served time

4:47

in New York State prisons. UM,

4:49

but my father was a tough older

4:52

man. Nothing would stop him. And

4:54

one of the things that he was involved with was

4:57

is there was a weekly poker game, and

5:00

in September six was his night to

5:02

hold the weekly poker game, and

5:04

one of the members at that game was Jerry Struman.

5:06

My father was the type of man it didn't matter,

5:09

you know, how much threatening Jerry

5:11

Struman did. And there were threats. We

5:14

later learned about two weeks before

5:16

September six, Jerry Struman

5:18

threatened to cut my father's tongue out, and it

5:20

got so bad that my father was even looking

5:23

into buying a shotgun because he was fearful.

5:26

Now we've set the stage. There's the poker

5:28

game right, There's obviously it's a tense

5:30

environment right with the two of him in the room. But you

5:32

went to sleep. I went to sleep because

5:34

September seven, who was the first day of my

5:36

high school year, I was gonna be a senior. And

5:38

I woke up and my life was never

5:41

the same again. The lights were on

5:43

in my house, the house wasn't locked up.

5:46

UM walked through the house and we're upstairs.

5:48

It's a ranch house. It's a very long ranch

5:50

house. Where the bedrooms were in one end

5:52

of the house. Um, where the card

5:55

game was was in the complete opposite end

5:57

of the house, right, So you wouldn't have heard anything, would

5:59

have heard anything. And I discovered

6:01

my father who was still sitting in his office

6:03

chair. Um. And he was alive.

6:06

Um. And he was bleeding. And

6:08

what did you do? I called nine one one

6:11

and I followed their instructions, right. They

6:13

told you to wrap them as best you could,

6:15

gave you some medical tips whatever, try to stop

6:17

the bleeding, that kind of stuff, right. Um.

6:19

And within a short period of time,

6:21

law enforcement showed up at the house. Where's

6:24

your mom? My mother was actually

6:26

in her bedroom. Cops come and

6:28

immediately they removed me from the

6:30

house. And what I

6:33

kind of can say now is that the process of

6:35

questioning me, trying to find out what happened

6:37

started almost immediately. Even when

6:40

I had family members show up that morning, there

6:42

was this immediate separation. When

6:44

my brother in law showed up, he was ripped away.

6:46

When my godfather, who was also

6:49

the family attorney, showed up, I

6:51

saw him. He never saw me.

6:53

But McCready who was the lead detective.

6:55

His name is Kay James McCready was the lead detective on

6:58

the case. Ran two

7:00

him and basically told him I was already

7:02

on the way to the hospital. I wasn't at

7:04

the house. Even though I was at the house, I was

7:07

told consistently I was being taken to the hospital.

7:10

Unfortunately I was never taken to the hospital.

7:12

I ended up being taken to police headquarters.

7:15

At this point, were you aware that your mom

7:17

had been killed? Um? So

7:20

you're in a state of total shock,

7:23

panic. Words can't describe it. Your parents

7:25

were beaten to death? Is that right? There

7:28

was a bludgeon instrument

7:31

uh and a knife uh, And to

7:33

this day neither one has been discovered.

7:35

And there was some forensic evidence which I can

7:37

talk about. There was glove prints,

7:40

so whoever did do this, we're wearing gloves.

7:43

Um that they still haven't found the gloves. So,

7:45

I mean there's all these little things that actually

7:48

the jury was aware of, but they

7:50

chose just to ignore. So they

7:52

took you to police headquarters because

7:54

and obviously this whole sort of pattern

7:56

is emerging right where they wanted to. They

7:59

had an agenda. Yeah, I mean, you

8:01

know, at that day. I didn't know that. I

8:03

was seventeen years old. My father

8:05

was the police commissioner of our little

8:07

community. I was raised to trust

8:10

law enforcement, believe in them. Law

8:12

enforcement wouldn't lie to you, they wouldn't deceive

8:14

you. Unfortunately, that's everything

8:16

that they did that morning. Right, And you're in an extremely

8:18

fragile state, and you need help, right, you need someone to

8:20

help you. You're seventeen years old, right, we know

8:23

that they have misled, is

8:25

it not probably nice way to put it? His family

8:27

guardian at this point, right, your godfather, who was

8:30

also the only lawyer that was available

8:32

to you at this time. They kind of mislike

8:34

everybody though. I mean I had other cousins and aunts

8:36

and uncles who were at the hospitals, and they were lied to

8:38

too. They were told Marty's on the way to the hospital,

8:40

Mars on the way to the hospital. Right. So they're basically

8:43

doing everything they can to prevent you from

8:45

having any responsible

8:47

guardian or legal representative

8:49

that might be able to stand in the way of them getting

8:52

the conviction that they wanted. Regardless

8:54

of truth. Yes, there was no truth seeking

8:56

here. I mean, you have a man who

8:58

was business partners with my father half

9:01

a million dollars involved was there

9:03

the night before. My father

9:05

also had in the weeks prior, had demanded

9:08

he had two notes fifty dollars. Back in

9:11

the days after the murders, Jerry Steuerman

9:14

cleaned out a joint bank account. He

9:16

faked his death. He fled

9:18

to California. He

9:21

had a hair weave back then, and

9:23

he went to a club that he wasn't a member. Full

9:25

of um. He had five

9:27

or six different aliases at that moment

9:31

um. But law enforcement never considered

9:33

a suspect. And every time I tell people, you

9:35

know, the average person would say, well, how is he not

9:37

a suspect? I mean, you could have stopped that. He

9:40

faked his own death. So let's get to

9:42

the interrogation and

9:44

the false confession in prison and

9:46

the whole Saturday. So let's I mean,

9:48

you're obviously very familiar with Marty's case. You've known Marty

9:50

since all right, he started writing

9:52

letters to me from prison. So

9:55

here's Marty in a state of panic

9:57

and shock and grief. And

10:00

as we discussed, he's still a child. And his

10:02

confession is different than any of the other

10:04

ones I've studied, right, because it may

10:06

or may not have ever even actually happened,

10:09

right, Usually they actually get somebody to

10:11

say something on video, or they'll get a

10:13

written statement or something. But

10:16

in Marty's case, it's much more highly nuance,

10:18

isn't it. Yes? Yes, And in Martie's

10:20

cases, you've got to ask yourself the first question,

10:22

why did Marty, seventeen

10:25

year old, without a criminal record, without a history

10:27

of violence, with good parents and

10:29

good relationships, in an affluent community,

10:31

why would Marty kill his parents? And

10:34

in a brutal way, in a brutal in the in the

10:36

most brutal of ways. And you have to ask yourself

10:38

the question, how in God's name did he become their suspect?

10:40

You know, most people said, well, you know, he did it for the money,

10:43

because they thought my parents were affluent. The way

10:45

the wills were structured, I would have gotten everything. And

10:48

we later learned that law enforcement

10:51

never really understood the way the wills and never

10:53

looked into the way the wills were structured. I

10:55

wasn't going to benefit financial until I was twenty

10:57

five, and I was seventeen,

11:00

and so, you know, as one of my aunts said, what was he supposed

11:02

to do? From seven? Live on the

11:04

streets so there he is in the interrogation

11:07

room, alone, alone,

11:09

seventeen, not street wise, never

11:11

been in trouble before, never had to worry about

11:13

how do you behave when you get picked up by police. He

11:15

had done nothing wrong. And the

11:17

funny thing about innocent people is even

11:20

if they had read him as miranda rights, he would

11:22

have waived those rights. So miranda

11:24

becomes not a safeguard that's particularly effective

11:27

at this point. Keep in mind, they've

11:29

got him in police headquarters. The whole

11:31

family is with his father, who is

11:33

dying but still alive in the hospital. That's

11:36

where Marty wants to be. So he's

11:38

already in a state where he's motivated to

11:40

cooperate. And they started asking him

11:42

questions about what he saw, how he

11:44

saw it, what had happened, and he gives them answers,

11:47

and the answers are consistent. They don't

11:49

believe him, They tell him they don't believe him. They asked

11:51

for the story to be told again, and they're searching

11:53

for inconsistencies and they're calling him

11:55

a liar, and they're not believing the

11:57

story that he keeps telling over and over again. But

12:00

then they shift gears and they shift gears

12:02

towards a procedure now where

12:04

they start to lie about the evidence. Now,

12:07

the average American doesn't realize

12:09

that in the United States police

12:11

are allowed to bring in a suspect and lie

12:13

about the evidence. They're allowed to say to the suspect,

12:16

we have your fingerprints on the murder weapon,

12:18

even if that's not true. What

12:21

happened in Marty's case is they

12:23

bring him in they say, well, you know, it appears that your

12:25

mother was in a struggle and there's

12:28

hair in her grasp and it turns out it's

12:30

your hair. We did the analysis, that's your hair, and

12:33

that confused Marty wasn't true, but

12:35

he got confused as to how that was possible. And

12:38

then because it was such a bloody scene,

12:40

it was too bloody scenes. There just

12:42

wasn't enough blood on Marty to account

12:44

for that. They suggested to him that he had showered

12:46

before calling. He said, no, I didn't

12:49

use the shower. They came back and said, well,

12:51

we did a humidity test in your

12:53

bathroom and we found that the shower had been used

12:55

that morning. A humidity test.

12:57

I don't believe even on c side, they've given us humidity

13:00

test um. Now they have delivered

13:02

two lies, and then the detective

13:04

delivers the ultimate lie. He leaves

13:07

the room. There are two detectives and they're the lead detective.

13:09

McCready leaves the room, stages

13:12

a phone call, and comes back

13:14

to deliver the news to Marty. Marty, I've got

13:16

good news and I got bad news. I just

13:18

spoke to the folks at the hospital. The good

13:20

news is your father has come out of his coma.

13:22

He's regained consciousness. The

13:24

bad news is he said you did it. Now,

13:29

think about this for a month. Insane.

13:32

You've got a seventeen year old and you're now

13:34

delivering one lie after another,

13:37

culminating in a lie that to Marty,

13:39

the person he trusts most in his life

13:42

has just said he committed

13:44

this crime. And not only

13:46

did Marty of course, had no choice

13:49

but to believe that that evidence,

13:51

because he doesn't believe police would lie to him.

13:53

Certainly, not like that. Even

13:55

McCready's partner believed that presentation.

13:58

So what choice is Marty have now

14:01

but to wonder, how is it possible

14:03

that they have this kind of objective

14:05

evidence. My father doesn't lie, he said.

14:08

Marty has almost no cognitive

14:10

choice but to accept that information.

14:13

Because he's got two things right. His father

14:15

doesn't lie and the cops don't lie.

14:17

Right, these are the two things that he believes

14:19

exactly. So those things lead to one conclusion,

14:22

one conclusion, I must have done it. And

14:24

the conversation turns to memory consciousness,

14:27

the possibility of sleepwalking and doing

14:30

it without awareness, and generate theories

14:32

from Marty to explain how come you don't

14:34

remember doing this. So

14:36

we know that that was the nature of the conversation.

14:39

We know that for some degree of transient

14:42

time, Marty became confused

14:44

about even his own innocence. His

14:46

confession was a handwritten statement,

14:49

handwritten by the detective, that

14:51

is inaccurate as a description of the

14:53

crime. It doesn't complete

14:56

itself, it's actually ends in mid sense,

14:58

and it is un signed. This

15:01

confession, the so called confession, was

15:03

written by the detective and not signed

15:05

by Marty. And yet that allegation

15:08

of that confession is the one

15:11

and only piece of evidence that was used

15:13

to convict him. You're at trial,

15:16

You still believe that justice is going to be

15:18

at trial? Still believe it? I mean, this is

15:20

what the lawyers are telling me. The system works. Um,

15:23

I was innocent. I testified in my own

15:25

behalf. The prosecution have tried

15:27

me with intentional murder and depraved in

15:29

difference murder. So when

15:32

we got called back in the

15:34

first verdict that was read was not

15:36

guilty, and then all

15:38

of a sudden, the second one was guilty. The

15:40

one thing I vividly remember

15:43

is the walk after they read the guilty

15:46

verdicts over to the county jails. They have these tunnel

15:48

systems, and I remember

15:50

just I felt like I was being led

15:52

like a dog because I was

15:54

just listening. And I remember getting

15:56

to the property room and I remember the

15:59

property and most saying what are you doing here, Marty?

16:01

And I go, why else would I be here? And

16:04

been everything else went blank for about the next six or seven

16:06

days. But now you're thrown into this environment. You're

16:08

in maximum security prison, is that right?

16:11

Yeah? I was. Basically every

16:13

day it's a fight for your life because you never know

16:16

in maximum security facilities what could happen, whether

16:19

it be the gang's going to war with each other,

16:21

the alcers taking you know, their aggression

16:23

out on you, or just the random

16:25

attacks that occur just for no reason whatsoever.

16:28

Right, I mean, we know that people are being killed

16:30

every day in prisons in America, UM, sometimes

16:33

by guards, even absolutely

16:36

for me. My case was very high profile,

16:38

so prisoners knew about the case. Guards knew about

16:40

the case. UM And I had a guy

16:42

come up to me and he solicity. He goes, if you

16:45

want to survive, he says, don't

16:47

do drugs, don't get involid drugs, don't get

16:49

involved homosexuality, don't get involved

16:51

in gambling gangs, he said.

16:53

And work your way into the college program or the

16:55

library. He said. One of the hardest

16:57

things is once you're innocent, is getting out,

17:00

he said. But you'll figure out a way to do it. My

17:02

lawyers said, okay, what's never been done here

17:05

before? And we said a full

17:07

investigation. And that's when I started

17:09

looking for private investigators and end

17:11

up hiring Jason Peter. And one

17:13

of the things that Jay said to me was, if you're innocent,

17:16

hire me. If you're guilty, don't. I said, I'm

17:18

innocent, I'll hire you. I just find

17:20

the truth, giant. And it took

17:22

years. You ended up serving six

17:25

thousand, three and thirty eight days, which is about

17:27

seventeen and a half years now

17:44

that we're up to speed from our two thousand seventeen

17:46

release, and with party's civil litigation

17:49

out of the way, he was finally able to

17:51

tell us about the mountain of exculpatory

17:53

evidence that they built, how his freedom

17:56

came to pass, all of the amazing

17:58

things he's been able to accomplish,

18:01

and of course his plans to finally

18:03

bring the people who conspired to murder

18:06

his parents to justice. Witness

18:08

is an evidence slowly emerged over the years

18:10

pointing towards a conspiracy involving

18:13

at least Peter Kent, Joseph

18:16

Creeden, Glenn Harris, and of course

18:18

the Stewarman's and more continues

18:20

to come to light to this day. But the

18:23

process started back in the early nineties

18:25

when a woman named Carlene Kovaks

18:28

went to a party. In

18:30

the early nineties nineties,

18:33

Joseph Creeden, who was an enforcer

18:35

for Todd Steuerman, was at

18:37

a party where he

18:39

admitted his involvement in the murders

18:41

to Carlin Kovacs. So

18:44

the idea that Todd Strum

18:46

and Jerry Schuhman were responsible

18:48

for this not only from day one,

18:50

but every year subsequent to

18:52

my conviction investigation, more

18:55

and more evidence would come forward, continuously

18:58

pointing back towards the Stearman's

19:00

and it was around three

19:05

when we presented the D's office

19:07

with that information. And as

19:09

the years would go on, throughout the

19:12

nineteen nineties and the two thousands,

19:14

the court system failed me. It

19:17

feels to me like the tides started

19:19

to turn around two thousand

19:22

three when you hired j Sawpeter. Jay

19:24

started from the very beginning was

19:26

kind of like who been intited financially and

19:29

let's just start branching out from there.

19:32

The criminal ties around

19:34

the Stewardmans. It was pretty

19:37

well known when Jay took on this case

19:39

of investigating it, and he

19:41

just started looking at Todd Storman

19:44

and Jerry Stewarman and started branching

19:46

out, and eventually they found

19:49

Glenn Harris. Glenn Harris said something

19:51

to the effect that I've been waiting

19:53

for this day for twelve or thirteen years.

19:56

Glenn Harris gave us one statement saying

19:59

that he had been high fired by Stewartman

20:01

to drive the two hitman Joe

20:03

Creeden and Peter Kent to and

20:06

from the Tank Cliff House where

20:08

you lived on the night of decline, and

20:11

that just kind of started the snowball effect.

20:13

We assembled a body of evidence of

20:16

witnesses, and in

20:18

two thousand five we

20:22

presented everything to the Suffolk County

20:24

d A with the hopes

20:26

that with their subpoena

20:28

power and wire top power, that

20:31

they would actually take a

20:33

real serious look at this case. And

20:35

we said, you know, if you don't do anything after

20:37

forty five days, we will file a post

20:40

conviction most in New York, and

20:42

we learned that it wasn't until the forty four

20:45

day that they actually went out and went

20:47

to interview the first witness, and

20:50

we thereafter filed a post conviction

20:52

motion. Judge Braslow

20:56

granted a hearing, and throughout

20:58

the hearing of very his technical

21:00

issues came up, and more witnesses

21:02

came forward. Throughout the hearing, carly

21:05

and Kovac's claimed that Joe Creten

21:07

told her about how he and another man hid

21:09

in the bushes outside the tankleff House, evaded

21:12

capture and got rid of the bloody clothes. And

21:14

then there was more. There were family members

21:16

of the killers, right, there were murder weapons

21:18

that were actually had been hidden

21:21

that were found. Am I wrong about that? Mighty? So

21:23

the culminating witness at the

21:25

hearing was Joseph Creeding's

21:28

son, who said that

21:30

his father confessed to

21:32

him of his involvement. There

21:35

was a pipe that was discovered

21:38

on a piece of property that Glenn Harris

21:40

said, I pipe was thrown.

21:43

Nobody knows if the pipe was actually

21:45

used, but what are the chances that somebody

21:48

could know or say, look, go search

21:50

on this piece of property. We threw

21:52

something there eighteen years ago, seventeen

21:54

years ago and it was found. The

21:57

actual murder weapons, the non

22:00

have never been found. By now

22:02

we're talking about two thousand five, two

22:04

thousand six. The defense your team

22:06

had assembled twenty witnesses

22:09

who all painted collectively a picture

22:11

of how Storman had orchestrated these

22:13

murders. Two of the witnesses had

22:15

seen McCready with Storman just before

22:18

the murders. Hello. There

22:20

was also the matter of the murder weapon not

22:22

having been found. There was a bloody stain

22:24

of what appeared to be a knife imprinted

22:27

on one of our lead tank cliffs sheets, but no

22:29

match was found, suggesting that someone

22:31

had taken it. But justice

22:34

was right around the corner, right so March

22:36

seventeenth, two thousand six, the

22:38

petition for the new trial was denied, but then

22:41

December two thousand seven, tell

22:44

us about that. Well, in New York State,

22:46

after you fill a post conviction motion, you

22:49

have to seek permission to appeal the case. Thankfully,

22:52

the Appel Division that

22:54

had denied me relief in three

22:58

had granted me permission to

23:00

hear my case and my lawyers

23:03

argued before four amazing

23:05

judges in September

23:07

of two thousand seven, and

23:10

I remember it was December

23:13

that I was calling home, calling

23:15

the lawyers every single day,

23:18

trying to find out how the decision come

23:20

down. And I had four different

23:23

appeals in the Appel Division,

23:25

including one for a new trial,

23:28

one for DNA testing. So

23:30

I was finally able to get through to one of

23:32

my lawyer's offices and the

23:35

receptionists said to me, She's

23:37

like, don't tell Bruce, I told you, But

23:39

we won the big one. And

23:42

my legs started to shake a little bit, and I kind

23:44

of almost didn't believe it because

23:47

it was kind of that moment when you

23:50

or just waiting for that day for day after

23:52

day, year after year. And

23:55

when I finally spoke to Bruce Barquette,

23:58

I'll never forget his words. He said, act

24:00

your ship. You're coming home, and

24:02

you'll never see the inside of a jail cell again.

24:05

And at that very moment. Don't ask me why

24:07

I said this, but I was kind of sarcastic, and I said,

24:09

Bruce, and I said, I've been studying a little long enough. I

24:12

said, it's an oral agreement and I'm going to hold

24:14

you to it. And

24:16

he kept his word. I

24:19

was brought down to the Subvin County

24:21

jail December twenty six, the day after

24:23

Christmas, and on December

24:25

twenty seven, I was freed

24:29

and I have never returned

24:31

to a jail cell since. So Bruce

24:33

Bork kept his word. In the book A

24:35

Criminal Injustice, which is I

24:38

recommend so highly that reads

24:40

like a Grisham novel, but

24:42

it's true and you lived it. And in

24:45

that book, one of the things that sticks out so

24:47

much and about your story is that Suffolk

24:50

County was like a criminal enterprise.

24:52

And I'm talking about the justice system. Can you

24:54

describe it well? I think it was best described.

24:57

I think it was William Hellerstein

25:00

described it as the wild wild

25:02

West of law enforcement

25:05

and the court system. Um

25:07

And essentially he said, is that in Subfolk

25:09

County, they do whatever the hell they

25:11

want to do, whatever they want to

25:13

do it because they

25:16

are almighty

25:18

um. And I think that almighty attitude can

25:20

be traced back to the homicide division

25:23

where in the eighties they used to wear these shirts

25:25

that said and

25:28

that referred to their confession and

25:30

conviction rates for homicide cases and they were

25:32

proud of it. And Suboc County

25:34

has a long history of turmoil

25:37

and corruption. When the Attorney

25:39

General reinvestigated the case during

25:41

some of the post conviction proceedings, they

25:44

uncovered forensics that

25:47

were in the possession of Subbok County

25:49

the entire time, and they

25:51

proved to be exculpatory nature. You

25:53

know, it just goes to the depths

25:55

of how sinister and evil

25:59

the criminals injustice system was

26:01

in Suffolk County back then, even

26:03

up to recently where

26:05

the district attorney that was in office

26:08

during my post conviction litigation, Tom

26:10

Spota, was recently

26:12

criminally charged while he was

26:14

a district attorney. When Tom

26:17

Spota was in private practice, he

26:19

and his firm had represented Todd

26:21

Stearman and Jerry Steuerman and

26:24

the chief of Police William Burke,

26:26

was also criminally charged and he went to prison.

26:29

It's unbelievable. And this gets

26:31

deeper and deeper because the creedy.

26:34

The detective was under investigation

26:36

for perjury, and let's not forget the

26:39

creedy wanted to business with your sister,

26:41

who became the heir to the

26:43

family fortune. Shortly

26:46

after my conviction, my half sister

26:49

through a celebratory party

26:51

at a country club for family

26:53

and friends, and right

26:55

around the same time, went

26:58

into business with money

27:00

she received from my parents

27:02

estate with the lead detective who

27:05

put me in prison, and they

27:07

opened up a bar restaurant Diggaro Dells

27:09

and the Riverhead, New York. Yeah,

27:14

I didn't want to go down in history

27:16

as being known as the person who was

27:18

convicted of murdering my parents because

27:20

I didn't do it, and

27:23

nobody stands criminally

27:25

charged or convicted of those murders

27:28

as of today. I knew that I wanted

27:30

to continue fighting until the truth

27:32

came out, and we continue

27:34

to explore every

27:37

lead, and even to this day,

27:40

we've had new witnesses who have come forward

27:42

and the only reason why they've come forward was

27:45

because Peter Kennon Joseph Cream have died.

27:48

They've come forward with exculpatory

27:50

evidence that no one has ever heard before

27:52

that I'm hoping by the end

27:54

of the year it will get out there. Are you

27:56

still hoping for the

27:58

authorities to do what they should have done decades

28:01

ago and prosecute the people

28:03

responsible for this tragedy.

28:05

There is a new district attorney

28:08

who ran on a line

28:10

of exposing injustice. He

28:13

set up a conviction integrity unit. He

28:16

has clearly stated time and time

28:18

again that he owes no allegiance

28:21

to the prior administration. And

28:23

I'm currently working on putting

28:25

a package together. I'm

28:28

confident that any fair minded

28:30

prosecutor, if they

28:32

look at the body of evidence that we

28:34

have now, someone

28:36

should be criminally charged. And

28:39

I'm going to be asking the SUBFLK County

28:41

District Attorney's office to reopen

28:44

the case. July

28:55

eight the charges were dismissed, and

28:58

your life began again or

29:00

a new I mean, you hit the ground

29:02

running. And there's so much

29:04

to talk about still, because there's

29:07

the federal civil suit against New

29:09

York State in the Suffolk County Police Department,

29:11

and this was not a frivolous

29:13

suit. In fact that July two thousand fourteen, New

29:16

York State settled for three point three

29:18

seven five million, and in two

29:20

thousand eighteen, Suffolk County settled

29:22

for another ten. They

29:24

didn't do that willingly. They did that because

29:26

they had no way out. I mean, you had them

29:29

literally dead to rights. And

29:31

then you go and graduate

29:33

from law school. Now, I mean seriously, Marty,

29:36

like, are you trying to make the rest of us look? It's

29:38

unbelievable. I was just

29:40

gonna say that, you know, when you when you say get

29:42

up and start running. It was three weeks

29:44

effort. I was out of prison,

29:47

I started producing on my Bachelor Glory

29:49

at Hatstraw, and I

29:52

knew that, you know, what I went

29:54

through, no one should go through. And

29:56

if there was somebody that could help make

29:59

a difference, it would be me. I

30:01

am out Now I'm a lawyer um

30:04

also an adjunct professor at Georgetown

30:07

University and Atoral Law School.

30:09

There's very hard to miss message of

30:12

what the rest of us have as an excuse not to live

30:14

out our dreams. I mean, you, that's an unbelievable

30:17

transformation, and I am

30:19

so so proud of you. So

30:21

you're now the head of the Prisoner

30:23

in Civil Rights litigation group at Metcalf

30:25

and Metcalf. You're living your best life.

30:28

And they say living well is the best revenge.

30:30

I mean, I think you can attest to that, but we can't

30:33

leave alone. The other

30:35

thing that you're doing now, which I'm

30:37

gonna I'm gonna guess is probably the most rewarding

30:40

thing other than your family of everything,

30:42

which is of course, be making an axotari

30:45

program. You're, of course,

30:47

as we talked about, an adjunct professor at Georgetown.

30:51

Let's just say that again, you're a professor

30:53

at Georgetown, like, what the hell anyway,

30:55

and you're working with your childhood friend and

30:58

my dear friend, Mark Howard co teaching

31:00

a class called making an Axonoree.

31:02

And one of the students from that class was on

31:05

this show in our episode of

31:07

the Awful Awful Case of Terrell Barrows,

31:10

and she said, and I think any of the

31:12

students would say that her life has been forever changed

31:14

by this experience. So please, anyone

31:16

go back and listen to the Terrell Barrows episode.

31:19

Terrell really needs and deserves our

31:21

help. Listen and you'll get some ideas of how

31:23

you may be able to make a difference in his life.

31:26

He's just as innocent as Marty was

31:28

and is so tell us about

31:30

some of the people that you've helped Wherever you want

31:32

to go with this just to get people a little background

31:35

and making fun a lot more on our website,

31:37

making an asoni dot com. Mark

31:39

and I have been friends since we were

31:41

three years old going to Love a w preschool,

31:44

and every I got out, Mark would

31:46

invite me to come down to his class

31:49

and speak to him about my experience about the criminal

31:51

justice system. And as the

31:54

years went on, we start talking

31:56

about the idea about teaching a class

31:58

together, and the

32:01

idea of making exon are kind

32:03

of came together one day, just us

32:06

talking taking undergraduate

32:08

students and having

32:10

them reinvestigate real

32:12

cases of men and women in prison, try

32:15

to track down new witnesses and

32:17

try to develop a body of evidence that

32:20

could help get them exonerated. And

32:22

their final project was to create

32:24

short documentaries. And we started

32:27

the class in ten and

32:30

one of our cases was Valentin at

32:32

Dixon, and our students

32:35

were able to uncover enough evidence

32:38

that we share with Valentino's lawyer

32:40

and he was exonerated in September

32:42

of that year. And each year

32:45

our students have done this

32:47

amazing work, and

32:51

there's not a single student who's taken

32:53

our class that hasn't

32:55

walked away and said that the

32:58

opportunity to try to

33:00

impact someone's life is life

33:02

altering for them. Our students

33:05

become friends with the individuals who incarcerated

33:08

tragically. John Moss, who

33:10

was from our first semester, our

33:12

students and covered evidence that convinced

33:15

the Innocence Project to represent him

33:17

tragically. He passed away in Martin Luther

33:20

King Jr. Day this year, but

33:22

the students became so close to him

33:24

and his family they went to his funeral.

33:27

I mean, it's kind of unheard of

33:29

that students can develop a bond like

33:32

that. Every one of the

33:34

student groups, even after

33:36

they've graduated, continue

33:38

to work on any of the cases that

33:40

they were connected with, and

33:43

if they're in a position where they can't work, they want

33:45

to know what's going on. Because

33:47

in Valentino and Dixon's case, when he

33:50

walked free in September, of Ellie

33:53

and Julie, who were to the young women

33:55

that worked on his case, flew

33:57

back from France and England to

33:59

be there when he walked out of prison. And

34:02

I think it's something that they will never

34:05

forget their entire life. And Valentino

34:08

has said time and time again that they

34:10

have lifelong friends and if

34:12

they ever need anything, he would be there for them. The

34:15

relationship you developed with these

34:18

men and women is just different.

34:21

You know. We walk in and we tell our students

34:23

that there's no guarantees

34:25

here other than you're putting a thousand percent in,

34:28

and they do more than that. Our

34:31

students can sometimes work thirty

34:33

hours a week outside of class.

34:36

They travel around the country, They track down

34:38

witnesses, they confront

34:40

former prosecutors. In

34:43

one case, they confronted a currently

34:45

sitting judge who was a former prosecutor. There

34:48

really is no fear

34:50

that our students have, and

34:53

it's just, to me an amazing

34:55

experience having the opportunity to work

34:57

with them, and it really hasn't

34:59

does even feel like work. From times, it feels like

35:02

such an honor and pleasure to work

35:04

with students that want

35:06

to come to class, want to work.

35:09

I want to sacrifice their time. And

35:11

I remember this year when the idea

35:14

of spring break, are going

35:16

to see somebody in a maximum security

35:18

prison during spring break. Our

35:20

students said, who cares about spring

35:22

break, Let's go to prison. Who

35:25

cares about spring break, Let's

35:27

go to prison. Wow, that

35:30

really does say it all. And the fact is that those of us who

35:32

work in this area now that the first

35:34

time you get to be a part

35:37

I don't care how small the part is of

35:40

helping somebody out

35:42

of this Kafka esque nightmare.

35:45

It is unlike anything

35:47

else that I've ever experienced, and

35:50

it makes me feel useful. You know, you

35:52

now get to live that to the tense

35:54

power or to the nth degree what you want

35:56

to call it, because you're doing it again and again, and you're

35:59

doing it from a place that the rest of us can't

36:01

possibly understand, and doing it for all

36:03

the right reasons. So it's wonderful

36:05

to see. And people can go

36:07

to making an exonoree dot com

36:10

and see these eight minute videos

36:12

which are so powerful, and

36:14

I know that every one of those students is going to be forever

36:16

changed by this experience and they're gonna become freedom

36:19

fighters in their own right. And so there

36:21

there goes the Marty tank

36:23

Cliff force multiplier effect.

36:26

Marty, you've been on the show before,

36:29

you know how it works. At

36:31

this point, we turned to my

36:34

favorite part of the show. It's

36:36

the part of the show we call closing arguments, where

36:38

first of all, I thank you for being

36:41

here, sharing your story and

36:44

just being this sort of beacon of

36:47

hope and light that you are and

36:49

then I turn off my microphone

36:52

leave yours on for what we

36:54

call closing arguments. I

36:57

remember when I talked about becoming a lawyer, I said,

36:59

you know, I said, I don't think I can ever reach

37:01

the pinnacle of exonerations of Barry

37:03

Scheck or Steve Drisen

37:06

or anybody like that. But I know if I'm

37:09

instrumental in helping one innocent

37:11

person walk free, you

37:13

know, I kind of joke I've done my job, um,

37:16

And I was there the day Valentino walked

37:18

out, but I'm far from over.

37:21

You know, it is so rewarding. And I know, Jason,

37:24

you've had the opportunity to be there when people

37:26

have walked free and been involved

37:28

in exonerations. Its

37:31

impacts your life in a way

37:33

that I think nothing else does. Um.

37:35

And I know one of my lawyers said, you know, those

37:38

who do this work are doing God's work.

37:41

And he explained it was simply

37:43

that, you know, when you fight to get

37:46

somebody who's innocent out of prison, you

37:48

were almost giving them an opportunity

37:50

of new life. So it's almost like a rebirth

37:52

for them because some of them have

37:54

been locked up longer than

37:57

they were free, and now all of a

37:59

sudden you help them gain their

38:01

freedom back. It really is

38:04

probably some of the most rewarding work. And

38:07

you know, Mark is somebody who

38:09

is just amazing because you

38:12

know, Mark was a tenured professor

38:14

of government and it was because

38:16

his involvement in his choice to go to law

38:19

school to join my defense team to

38:21

fight to get me out of prison, that his career

38:24

essentially changed. Where

38:26

he teaches prisons and justice. He

38:29

goes into prisons and teaches

38:31

college credit courses. He's

38:34

established the Frederick Douglas Project,

38:37

and Mark and I have made a decision

38:39

that we will teach this class

38:42

every year going forward,

38:45

just because so many innocent people

38:49

don't have the ability to have their voices

38:51

told. You know, after

38:53

Just Mercy came out, I

38:56

told our students that you have to watch the

38:58

scene where Jamie Boxes

39:00

talking to his lawyer after the evidentiary

39:02

hearing and he

39:04

says something to the fact that even if

39:07

I don't get out of prison, I'm

39:09

good because the truth

39:11

came out. And that's what we

39:13

empower our students to do. Get

39:16

the truth out there, because

39:18

those who are incarcerated, that's what they want.

39:21

We can't control the criminal

39:24

justice system, but we can control

39:27

investigating these cases and telling the stories

39:29

and having those who are incarcerated

39:32

have their stories told through our voices.

39:35

I think anybody who walks away and watch

39:37

the videos, we'll just find

39:40

that our system is is so flawed

39:43

on so many levels. And

39:47

everyone across America can do something,

39:50

because that's a question. I'm sure you get asked all the

39:52

time, what can we do? And

39:55

we tell people, you know, find

39:57

something you're good at and just offered

39:59

a help, you know, whether it be writing

40:02

a letter to somebody who's in prison, social

40:04

media development sharing, passing

40:07

along petitions, if there are fundraising

40:09

efforts, do fundraising because

40:13

so often people sit back and

40:15

say, I'm not a lawyer, I know nothing

40:17

about the system. And when I

40:19

tell people that the system is about humanity

40:22

at its core, because our

40:24

system succeeds and fails

40:26

based on humans on so many levels that

40:29

if we go deep into our hearts,

40:32

we can find something that we can do to

40:35

make a difference. Don't

40:42

forget to give us a fantastic review. Wherever

40:44

you get your podcasts, it really helps.

40:46

And I'm a proud donor to the Innocence

40:49

Project and I really hope you'll join me in

40:51

supporting this very important cause

40:53

and helping to prevent future wrongful

40:55

convictions. Go to Innocence Project dot

40:58

org to learn how to donate and get an involved.

41:00

I'd like to thank our production team, Connor

41:02

Hall and Kevin Wardis. The music

41:04

in the show is by three time OSCAR nominated

41:07

composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to

41:09

follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction

41:11

and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction

41:14

Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason

41:16

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41:18

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