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right. All right.

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Let's do the show.

0:57

All right, let's do this. How are you? What

0:59

the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck,

1:02

Nick? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron.

1:04

This is my podcast. Welcome to it. It's

1:06

been going on a while. It has been going

1:09

on a while.

1:10

You've never been here.

1:12

Welcome. If you have been here, how are you? What's going

1:14

on? You all right? I hope the weather

1:17

is not totally catastrophic where

1:19

you are. I am in L.A.

1:21

and I got to be honest with you. The last

1:24

few days, the weather has been perfect.

1:26

If you're in California

1:29

for the California experience,

1:32

the weather has been perfect. A

1:34

little hot, but not like, oh my God,

1:36

I'm going to die. Not

1:38

that hot, which is good. If you're

1:40

out there, you know, in front

1:44

of studios with signs

1:47

holding the line, I want to

1:50

show my support, give my support, speak

1:52

my support to my union brothers and

1:54

sisters. I am

1:56

a dues-paying member of the WGA.

1:59

and SAG-AFTRA, but

2:02

the truth is their demands are not being met, their

2:04

reasonable demands are not being met to

2:06

earn a wage that would entitle

2:08

them to make a decent,

2:11

okay living

2:12

for the profession they've chosen with the protections

2:15

they deserve in the new media landscape.

2:18

It's important, it does affect the art

2:21

and the business

2:22

of movies and television. And

2:25

well, let's just break it down a little bit because

2:27

I had to learn myself and

2:29

there are some things we can and can't do on this show

2:32

now in support of the strike. So

2:35

SAG-AFTRA, the actors struck

2:37

because the actors were not offered

2:39

a fair contract by the Alliance of Motion Picture

2:42

and Television Producers. That's the trade

2:44

association that represents the major movie

2:46

studios, the broadcast television networks, the streaming

2:49

services and some cable TV

2:51

networks. And it's just, look, there was also

2:53

talk

2:54

a week or so ago, it was a fact

2:58

that these entities, these

3:00

movie studios, broadcast television

3:02

networks, streaming services, some cable

3:05

networks, we're gonna try to starve the writers

3:07

out. So the timing is

3:09

good, it's supportive, it's a big day and

3:12

a big week and a big action for

3:14

unions in general in this business. Now,

3:17

here are the key issues. Compensation

3:20

has been eroded with the rise of streaming, obviously,

3:23

rules need to be changed for both upfront pay

3:25

and residual payments. They kind of

3:27

got away with some stuff for a lot of years here now

3:30

with no backend for the writers

3:32

and actors. As artificial intelligence

3:35

is used more in productions, a contract needs to

3:37

protect the identities and the

3:39

work of union members going forward,

3:42

obviously.

3:43

Like I don't, look, I'm not at the

3:45

table, but I don't know why this stuff isn't just declared

3:48

out and out animation, but

3:50

maybe that's a conversation. Now, the

3:52

deal is SAG-AFTRA was not offered a fair agreement

3:55

that addresses all the terms I just mentioned. While

3:57

the union is on strike here at

3:59

WTF.

3:59

We will not be booking anyone to promote

4:02

anything that's the product of

4:04

the companies in the trade association

4:06

The union guidelines do say

4:09

that any pre-banked press appearance that was

4:11

agreed upon and completed Before

4:13

the strike date of Thursday, July 13th

4:16

is permitted to air or be published

4:19

We have a few interviews that are are banked

4:21

from before the strike and we will still air those interviews

4:24

to discuss the guests life

4:26

and work

4:27

Like for instance today's interview with Killian

4:29

Murphy was recorded on

4:32

June 27th Now, you

4:34

know, this is a big deal Because

4:36

I don't I don't guess with people's

4:39

perception of what we do out

4:41

here in in Hollywood Or

4:44

you know just to say or what we do in show

4:46

business, you know Just how many people are involved

4:49

and what it means

4:51

to be paid fairly I mean whatever your job

4:53

may be and however much you

4:55

make The unions are there

4:58

to protect you Somehow or another

5:00

over the last 50 years or so the even the

5:02

unions have have been demonized and broken down but

5:04

these unions out here are pretty fucking

5:07

strong and They're not

5:09

asking for anything but a a

5:11

fair

5:13

deal, I Mean,

5:15

it doesn't matter what you think of how much money

5:18

actors make or how much money writers make There's

5:20

a lot of actors and writers that that make little

5:23

that don't make much that are working to get

5:25

by Background actors for instance could get

5:27

screwed entirely

5:29

if they're not Represented properly

5:31

by the Union by a deal. They

5:34

could just be made up they

5:36

can just they're Almost any actor

5:38

just take their face and their body and you

5:41

know Throw it into the magic machine and you can

5:43

produce the zombie version.

5:45

I mean, that's a big deal I I don't know much

5:47

about it. I know it's frightening

5:49

and I know that on some level parts

5:51

of it are inevitable

5:53

But the deal is the deal needs to be fair

5:56

and it needs to represent this stuff and I have

5:58

hoped that it will So I

6:01

struggle sometimes for many years

6:04

to maintain my health insurance.

6:06

You know, obviously when I, for years when

6:08

I wasn't working in the union, I had

6:10

to go to Cobra, I had to go to Kaiser. I

6:12

had, you know, there is something

6:15

about being represented by a union

6:17

that does feel

6:20

like you have a voice, like you're protected

6:23

and it's definitely the only

6:25

way with some professions

6:27

that you have any traction against

6:30

corporate bloodsuckers and exploiters.

6:33

Now granted, in this particular

6:36

instance, the exploiters are entertaining

6:38

you. Well, we'd like to think

6:41

as actors, writers and creators who are represented

6:44

in this union, that we are necessary.

6:47

We are a necessary part of that and

6:49

that we deserve compensation that is relative

6:52

to the insane greedy cash

6:54

grab

6:55

that streaming companies and their parent companies are

6:59

getting. It's

7:01

really kind of an amazing thing to see

7:04

union action and to see it still alive. There's,

7:06

I think there's a bit of momentum

7:09

on behalf of a lot of unions post-COVID.

7:11

If we can get back to that, if

7:14

we can get back to just, you

7:16

know, trying to get people a fair wage and get some health

7:18

coverage in a reasonable way, in

7:20

a safe way, it's

7:23

really the way it should be. But there are

7:25

forces within certain political factions

7:29

and business factions that will

7:31

do anything not to do that. Child

7:34

labor laws are being broken

7:37

down in some states. Yeah,

7:40

that's where it goes.

7:42

God forbid corporations compensate their

7:44

workers properly who are grownups trying to raise

7:46

kids. Why not just get the kids into

7:49

the factory at the machines?

7:52

Yeah, 11, 12, why not? They have hands.

7:55

Why not lose them? So

7:59

maybe that's a little But that's what's going on.

8:02

So that's the deal I'll

8:06

be a dynasty typewriter tomorrow. That's

8:08

Tuesday, July 18th and also next

8:11

Tuesday, July 25th Then I'm back at Largo

8:13

on Thursday, July 27th I'll

8:16

be at the Salt Lake City wise guys on

8:18

August 11th and 12th for four

8:20

shows Then I'm at the Las Vegas wise

8:22

guys on September 22nd and 23rd also

8:24

four shows and in October I'm

8:27

at helium in Portland, Oregon on October

8:29

20th through 22nd You can

8:31

go to WTF pod comm for tickets

8:33

to all these shows and if I add shows I'll let you know

8:36

these club shows are primarily

8:38

to To work out

8:40

whatever the hell I'm working on. I

8:42

mean, that's that's what's happening

8:44

That's I guess I'm just gonna keep

8:47

doing it

8:48

This episode is sponsored by better help There

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9:47

so I Was in New Mexico.

9:49

I don't know if I really talked to you about that.

9:51

But if I did I'll say it again My

9:53

dad is is hanging in there.

9:56

He hasn't changed much since the last time I saw him a

9:59

few months ago still tethered

10:01

to the reality, still able

10:03

to remember things and engage, had him laughing a

10:05

lot, I remember I told you that. But there's a story I forgot

10:08

to tell you, which I think is

10:10

something

10:11

that has some kind of broader relevance,

10:15

is that before my dad

10:17

got ill years ago, he was

10:20

in trouble. And

10:23

it was one of those things where I couldn't really wrap my

10:25

brain around what was happening

10:28

or what was going on with him. But

10:30

years ago,

10:32

he was the prescribing doc

10:34

at a pain management clinic

10:36

that got busted.

10:38

There was a big crackdown on pain management in general

10:41

with the opioid epidemic. And

10:43

the one my father worked at was busted by

10:45

the feds.

10:47

And

10:51

he was accused of

10:54

overprescribing. And

10:57

it never sat right with me.

10:59

My dad was just not that guy.

11:02

And I had told him even years

11:04

ago when he was going to get into the business as

11:07

a prescribing doc, I

11:09

said, you're going to be dealing with drug addicts and you

11:11

should really know what drug addicts are because they're

11:13

going to be around and they're going to be worming you.

11:17

But pain management was this weird, vague

11:20

thing that was the gateway to

11:22

the opioid epidemic. But

11:25

my dad was working in earnest. I

11:27

can't speak for his partner, but when

11:30

they cracked down, my dad

11:31

got dragged through the mud for

11:34

overprescribing. And these numbers were ridiculous.

11:37

They were completely ridiculous. So

11:40

my dad kind of went broke

11:42

with legal defenses against civil lawsuits and

11:44

whatnot. He

11:50

always said he was guilty of nothing.

11:54

And he just wasn't that guy.

11:58

So it turns out, and this is part

12:00

of the story. They wrote an article on my old man

12:02

in the goddamn paper and dragged him through the mud

12:05

and made an example of him in his hometown, caused

12:07

him tremendous stress, had to give

12:10

up his license, had to go bankrupt.

12:13

He was publicly shamed.

12:16

And then it turns out his wife, they told

12:19

me the story the last time I was there, but I heard it again

12:21

and I think it has broader implications,

12:24

is that my dad's

12:26

wife reached out to the FBI

12:28

and

12:29

he had been vindicated, totally

12:31

vindicated, like a couple of years ago. They

12:34

never informed my dad's wife

12:36

or my dad that after

12:39

a full investigation, he'd

12:42

been totally vindicated because

12:44

somebody had stole the script pads.

12:47

Now, I don't know if his partner colluded or

12:49

not. I can't make any accusations,

12:52

but it was not my dad. Somebody

12:55

either sold all the script pads or

12:57

just writing phony scripts. And the FBI

13:01

said he was entirely not guilty. But

13:04

was there an article in the newspaper about that? No.

13:06

Was there any conversation about it? No.

13:09

Not as interesting a story, is it?

13:11

And I imagine that happens a lot. I

13:14

imagine people just fade back

13:16

into the background and

13:19

there's no real traction. To

13:22

vindication. And

13:25

it's just sort of heartbreaking that this was the

13:27

sort of last kind of massive

13:30

event of his life revolved around

13:32

this horrible situation.

13:36

And now, his memory of it is fading.

13:41

And I guess if there is any

13:43

silver lining to

13:47

dementia, it's that the

13:49

good things fade along with the bad things

13:52

and along with all things. But

13:55

I thought I should tell that story because

13:58

no one else is going to tell it. And

14:00

I know that my father and

14:02

his wife listened to this show. And

14:05

I just think it's important to

14:08

know that side of the story. I don't

14:10

know why the Albuquerque Journal

14:13

didn't follow up after making

14:16

my dad's life a

14:18

walking hell and the legal. I don't know why

14:20

the FBI didn't reach out in a more

14:24

quick fashion or to make sure

14:26

that they knew that given that he was in

14:28

the position he was in. But I'll do it.

14:32

I'll do it right here on my podcast.

14:34

My father, Barry

14:37

Maron was totally vindicated from

14:39

all the charges against him by

14:42

the FBI. All

14:46

right, it's kind of touching

14:48

somehow. Fucking

14:50

sad stories sometimes life, right?

14:53

All right, look, this

14:57

Killian Murphy interview that

15:00

you're about to hear was again, it was

15:02

recorded on

15:04

June 27th. And

15:09

we're gonna talk. Here

15:11

we go.

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["Turo's

15:51

Guitar Yeah.

16:00

Yeah, like what

16:02

you call a sunburst. Oh, like

16:04

a tobacco sunburst? Yeah. Oh,

16:06

that's a good one. When did you get that? Like what

16:08

year? Oh, it was, I was like 18

16:11

or 19. I was working in like

16:14

washing dishes in a restaurant and I knew

16:16

the guitar. Yeah. So I got them to keep

16:18

it for me and then I worked, I worked

16:21

like a year. To get the guitar. Yeah. Did

16:23

it have the white binding on it? Like around

16:26

the edge that tobacco sunburst with the

16:28

white? No, it doesn't have the white. No, it

16:30

doesn't have the white. But it's old fender, new

16:32

fender? I guess it's

16:34

my bottom. So it's like 30 years old. You

16:37

still got it. Yeah, man. My son

16:39

plays it now. Yeah? Yeah. Is

16:41

that the only guitar you got? No, I have a,

16:43

I have an SG. I have like

16:46

a black SG. That's good, like a newer

16:48

one? That's about 20 years old

16:50

as well. That's a good one. Yeah, and

16:52

I have one of those old, I can't remember what it's called.

16:54

There are these like kit guitars you buy in the 50s. Yeah.

16:58

Like a Silvertone or something?

16:59

Yeah, that's what it is. A Silvertone.

17:02

Yeah. Come with the amp. Yeah. Yeah,

17:05

that's good. They're a nice sound of those. Yeah.

17:08

And I like the way they look. Yeah, they're great. They're

17:10

great looking. So, but the music thing obviously

17:13

was a dream at some

17:15

point. It totally was, yeah. Yeah.

17:19

And then it just died. But

17:21

it's like, it's a nice jump to go to something

17:23

equally as potentially

17:27

un-lucrative.

17:29

It worked out for you. I

17:32

think in the long run to succeed as

17:34

an actor in general is even

17:36

better than succeeding as a magician. A

17:38

magician. Well, that's a tough racket. A magician,

17:41

but as a musician, you know, a musician's

17:43

like, yeah,

17:44

they do all right for a while. I know. But

17:47

you really got to land that big money take. It's

17:49

a young man's game too, isn't it? Yeah, but

17:51

if you're a young man and you lock in with enough people

17:53

with a certain sound, you can certainly run that thing

17:55

into a ground for like 30 years. Well, certain

17:58

acts. Yeah.

17:59

But it's weird, man, I don't know. Lately,

18:02

I've been going back and listening

18:05

to things and watching things that

18:07

I saw as a younger man and thought

18:10

I understood. And then I watched

18:12

him years later and I'm like, I

18:14

didn't even fucking get any of this. Do

18:16

you ever do that? Totally, yeah. I did that with you

18:18

too, oddly. It's not that I didn't

18:21

get them,

18:22

but you get so overwhelmed

18:24

with you two as a modern rock band. But

18:27

if you listen to those first two albums, they

18:29

just sound like some guys playing.

18:31

And then that goes away, man. Did

18:34

you grow up with them in there? Yeah, totally. But for

18:36

me, it kind of started around Joshua

18:38

Tree. That was my era. Right, well, that's when

18:40

they're bigger than life. I

18:43

mean, I think that's a perfect album. I

18:45

think it's absolutely perfect.

18:47

And it's actually when you listen back to it, it's

18:49

a gospel record. Sure, yeah, sure. It's

18:52

all about the Jesus. It

18:54

turns out that a lot of their stuff's about the Jesus. Yeah,

18:57

but this one, I think, is... A

18:59

little vague. It's vague. It's less

19:01

on the nose. I adore that record. I put

19:03

it on

19:04

regularly, like on the drive. It's

19:06

just a magnificent record. Sure it is. I

19:09

remember when it came out, it was one of those records that you could not

19:11

avoid. It was

19:13

like it just became like oxygen

19:16

for about six months. Do you remember

19:18

them

19:19

from when you were a kid? That was the

19:21

introduction. I remember I had that on cassette. But

19:24

they weren't around in Ireland. Oh, they

19:26

were huge in Ireland. Of course. They were like

19:28

the biggest thing. Yeah, but they were over here. They were

19:30

over here being famous and playing

19:32

stadiums. Doesn't he go out and busk occasionally?

19:35

Bono? Yeah, he does, every Christmas. Yeah,

19:38

on the Grafner Street. Sure does. I

19:40

went to see him do his one-man show. I hear it's

19:42

amazing. It's good. He's good. He's

19:46

talking about his dad. But the music's

19:48

really amazing because it's

19:49

all stripped down. He does a handful of songs,

19:51

but it's only like a cello player and

19:54

like a keyboard person and him.

19:57

And that voice. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

20:00

He's something. He really is. I

20:02

read the book. I loved it. Oh,

20:04

you did? Yeah, I did. I read most

20:06

of it. I thought

20:07

we were going to interview him. Yeah, I'm surprised you didn't.

20:09

I don't know, man. You know what I mean? I'm

20:11

not magic. It feels like

20:13

you get everyone else. Yeah, but they got

20:15

to come around. You know, there's some people. Like, I ran

20:17

into you. I had no idea you knew the show. And

20:20

I saw you on it. Were you coming or going to New

20:22

Mexico? Is that what it was? We were.

20:24

I was

20:25

flying with Chris. We

20:27

had shot in LA, and we were about to start shooting in New

20:29

Mexico. That's when I saw you, and I didn't even

20:31

know Chris or introduce myself or

20:33

know enough to say anything. You're unbelievably

20:36

cool, yeah. We recognized

20:39

you straight away. I didn't even put

20:41

it together. Did I put it together that that was Chris

20:43

Nolan? I'm like, I'm a fucking idiot,

20:45

dude. I don't know who's who

20:47

or what's what or why. We were sitting directly across

20:49

from you. I don't know. And then afterwards, we

20:51

talked a little bit, and then you said that, you

20:54

said that, no,

20:55

Chris said that he admired

20:57

your boots, and he also admired

20:59

your bag. Oh, yeah. Did I tell him where I got

21:01

them all? You did. Oh, that's right. I

21:04

told them Philson. They were probably Philson. That's

21:06

right. Or something. Yeah,

21:08

yeah. We had a little conversation about that. Yeah.

21:12

Yeah. And then we, and that was it. I

21:14

went to... That's so funny that, like, I didn't

21:15

even... I'm not sure that... I knew who you were

21:18

because at some point you scared me. So

21:20

like, I was able to... They're like,

21:23

I know that guy. He's the scary guy. And

21:26

then, like, I didn't even register Chris Nolan. I didn't

21:28

know that you were going out there to do Oppenheimer. Like

21:31

theoretically, you assume that people in Hollywood, they're up

21:33

to speed. But I'm like, who's this Chris

21:36

guy? Oh, my God. He's

21:38

made a few movies here. Big movies. I

21:41

saw Oppenheimer yesterday.

21:43

Oh. Did you see it in IMAX?

21:46

Yeah, I saw it in the whole thing on film. 70 millimeter

21:48

film, IMAX experience. I haven't seen

21:51

it like that yet. You haven't? No.

21:54

You could have gone. Do what you couldn't get on the list. There

21:56

was nobody there. Jordan

21:59

Peele was there and John

21:59

and Elvis Mitchell and

22:02

a few other reviewers. It was like 12 people

22:04

in the room. That's pretty cool. But yeah, those

22:06

guys went. They got to go see the

22:08

master's work. But the

22:10

movie's great and you were great in it. Okay. It's

22:13

quite a process, man. Yeah,

22:15

yeah, I mean, I haven't seen it since

22:17

January and it was a little overwhelming

22:19

when I did see it. So

22:21

I don't know, my recall or kind of response

22:23

to it is probably not really accurate.

22:26

Overwhelming, it's an overwhelming movie. That's

22:29

all that guy makes. I know. But

22:31

this was like, it's so funny because there's

22:33

only a second real biopic, this

22:35

focus that I've seen in the last year. And the

22:38

other one was with Butler

22:40

as Elvis. Oh yeah. And

22:43

it's so funny that the process, like

22:45

he couldn't shake Elvis. I talked to him months

22:48

after the thing and he still had an hard time

22:50

shaking Elvis. But it seems

22:52

like you've gotten rid of Oppenheim. Well, yeah,

22:54

I feel like I'm pretty much back to myself. It was intense,

22:57

like it was intense. Yeah.

22:59

And I don't know, you're

23:01

gonna have to ask me a question. Oh, about it?

23:04

Yeah. How about that moment where you just go

23:06

up the scaffolding and go face to face with

23:08

the first bomb. Oh yeah. And

23:10

you just stand there looking at the

23:12

bomb. Yeah. It's very

23:15

quick, that piece, it's only about 15

23:17

seconds. But I imagine that was a big day. Yeah.

23:20

In terms of what you were thinking.

23:21

Yeah, I mean, it

23:24

was huge. A lot of the things about this film though,

23:27

it's thematically so huge.

23:30

Oh yeah. And all the questions that pose all these

23:32

huge kind of ethical, moral

23:35

kind of

23:36

paradoxes. It's kind of massive and

23:39

it's very hard to kind of give sound bites

23:41

about it. You try

23:44

and, you know, you try and do it as truthfully and

23:46

as honestly as you can and as respectfully

23:48

as you can. The performance you mean? Yeah,

23:51

and try to get yourself into that headspace. It

23:55

was a tough one, this one. It was very, very

23:57

complex. You know, the way a normal, you're playing a normal.

24:00

the protagonist, it goes from

24:02

A to B, and there's a curve, and there's an arc, and then

24:04

you end up somewhere else. With him, it was so

24:07

tricky, like he was kind of all over

24:09

the graph in terms of his journey

24:11

and his arc and how he changed and went

24:13

backwards and how he dealt with

24:17

whatever he was dealing with in his head. Well,

24:19

yeah, I noticed that. I noticed that when you talk

24:21

about, or you have talked about

24:24

the

24:25

seagull, like Chekhov, so

24:29

that there is something about, and this is something I learned relatively

24:31

late in my life about the way drama is

24:34

structured, that that character has to transform.

24:37

And I imagine that makes it very engaging

24:39

as an actor, but Oppenheimer,

24:41

give or take,

24:42

was struggling with things or perhaps

24:45

weighing things, and he fluctuated,

24:48

but I didn't get the sense that he necessarily

24:51

transformed, but the world profoundly

24:54

transformed because of him. Yes, because

24:56

of his actions. Right. And it's sort of

24:58

a different game. Yeah, that's why

25:00

it makes him kind of an unusual protagonist,

25:03

for sure. And then trying to,

25:06

because his position,

25:07

myself and Chris always talked about it, like

25:10

that he was dancing between the raindrops morally.

25:13

That's one way, that was very useful to me.

25:15

That's interesting. We were shooting it, you know? Yeah,

25:17

yeah, yeah. Because there's the, up to the point

25:20

of the Trinity test,

25:21

it's kind of, it's clear enough, because there's Germany,

25:24

they're the bad guys who need to get a bomb, but

25:26

then it gets very muddy when Germany surrender,

25:28

and

25:29

then... Yeah, what do we do? Do we keep

25:31

doing it? We're still making it, yeah. Yeah, we're in the

25:33

middle of this thing. Yeah, we're almost there. Yeah.

25:36

And that's when it gets very interesting dramatically.

25:38

Well, I think that you played it well in that

25:41

this thing that you talk about him going back and forth

25:43

is really like, what he's weighing

25:46

is something that no mortal had to weigh ever.

25:50

And then on top of that, it's sort of like, how

25:53

much is a rationalization, and how much

25:55

was it a belief? Right? Because

25:58

all these nerds just want to see if... what

26:00

they think is correct. Yeah. Right?

26:03

Well, it's theoretical physics, yeah. Right. Yeah. So

26:05

it was like, you know, that's

26:07

sort of what goes through the movie and what, you know, he gets

26:09

sort of prosecuted or crucified

26:12

for is his moral compass. But,

26:15

you know, he had to somehow

26:17

weigh in his head that, well, if we don't do it, they're

26:19

gonna do it. Yeah. And it's going

26:21

to exist whether we do it or not. Yeah.

26:24

So let's do it. Yeah. Yeah.

26:27

So it's totally,

26:28

and again, that, like, you know, there's all

26:30

sorts of ways, I imagine, they manage

26:32

to rationalize it or live with it. Yeah,

26:35

of course. Some of them, but I thought Chris was

26:37

pretty smart in those moments. Like,

26:39

after, you

26:40

know, the moment where you speak briefly

26:43

after the bombings. Yeah. And

26:46

you're walking through that crowd that, you know, you have, like,

26:48

it's very weird as an audience member to see everybody cheering

26:50

because you're like, they don't know what's, this

26:53

is a disaster. You know, you can get

26:55

it, but there's actually, as an audience member, there's

26:57

sort of a moral turpitude within

26:59

you watching that. But as

27:02

you walk through the crowd as Oppenheimer, clearly

27:05

there's some people in the crowd that were not handling it

27:07

well. Yeah. Well, I think that was very

27:09

deftly handled by Chris himself in terms of how

27:11

do you kind of, it's, again,

27:14

these themes and the

27:15

reality and the horror and the fucking

27:17

genocide and all this stuff that happened. How do you kind of put

27:20

that into a film? And

27:22

he did it in this way that is so

27:24

subtle, I think, and

27:27

beautifully handled in the immediate

27:29

aftermath because it's this kind

27:32

of, this paradox or juxtaposition of like

27:34

celebration and horror at

27:37

the same time. Kind of amazing. Yeah. And how do

27:39

you do that? I thought he did it brilliantly.

27:40

Yeah. I mean, it's like, and

27:43

also to make him empathetic if possible. Yeah.

27:46

But the bottom line is, though, whether it's a big movie or not, me

27:48

as an American guy, as a guy who grew up in New Mexico.

27:50

Yeah, of course. I didn't know any of that shit.

27:53

Really? Yeah. You know, I didn't

27:55

read the book. You know, I knew Oppenheimer. They'd done

27:58

something out there. So did you know about Los Alamos and all that?

27:59

Sure, but I grew up knowing there was a lab

28:02

there and I knew of course we knew that

28:04

the missile tests are there and there's A museum over there.

28:06

Did you go over there? Yeah, the atomic museum was a

28:08

Kirkland Air Force Base. Is it there? Oh actually, maybe

28:10

I didn't go to that one where they actually have models of

28:13

the two bombs. Okay. No, I didn't go to yeah Yeah,

28:15

they I mean we went there when I was in school and

28:17

stuff Sure, and I went to White

28:19

Sands, but that was not he didn't have anything

28:21

to do with that No, but I didn't

28:23

know that they built the fucking town. Yeah

28:26

for him

28:28

Like I had no idea that history and I grew up there made

28:30

me feel stupid But I miss a lot of things. I shouldn't

28:32

beat myself up I don't know anything but uh, but

28:34

so for me to learn the story

28:37

and I certainly didn't know the story afterwards I didn't even

28:39

know he was a Jew and I'm a Jew and I like knowing

28:41

when people are Jews But

28:45

I didn't even know that right, you know, it is

28:47

a fairly thorough telling of

28:49

that guy's story Yeah, I

28:52

think so. Did you read the book? I

28:54

did. Yeah, I did you had to I didn't

28:56

have to You know like,

28:58

you know The thing about like

29:00

playing a real-life character, which I hadn't

29:02

really done before certainly not an iconic

29:05

Yeah figure like up

29:07

on her. Yeah, there's there's there's a wealth

29:09

of archival stuff You

29:12

know, you can spend months and months and months and you can

29:14

see him talking exactly but but that

29:16

was also

29:17

could be slightly unhelpful

29:20

because You know when he's giving

29:22

those lectures and I'm sure that's quite performative.

29:24

I don't think that's him like right

29:26

Kind of in a candid setting. Yeah

29:28

talking to his buddy So we I use them but

29:31

but what I'm trying to say is that there's so much there

29:33

that you can't if you spent all your Time

29:35

trying to absorb it. You're just losing, you know

29:37

I think what you have to go after is the kind of humanity

29:39

and the person right and then Ultimately

29:42

the script is your main resource, right, you know,

29:44

Chris's version of events is what we're telling. Yeah

29:47

so I that became the thing that

29:49

I studied most of all and then Again,

29:52

you know, you know when you're in the scene all the all the research

29:55

and everything that you've done

29:56

You kind of just abandon it and you're in the moment

29:58

with your actor and it's all about what's happening

30:00

right there in the moment. Sure. And

30:04

you're trying to

30:06

be as human as possible in that. And

30:08

so that's not... Once you've done all the preparation. Exactly.

30:11

So what I'm trying to say is that it's not an intellectual process at that point. It's a purely

30:13

instinctual, emotional one. Right. But

30:16

like, you know, like for me, like in... and also like

30:18

talking about Austin, you know,

30:20

Butler and Elvis, that these

30:22

are two characters. Like it's interesting that these

30:24

are going to be the huge biopics for the last couple

30:27

years. You know, they're fairly

30:29

explosive, if you don't mind the, you

30:32

know, different types of explosions, but nonetheless

30:35

impactful. Right? And,

30:38

you know, he kind of had to submerge himself

30:40

in, you know, this

30:43

being him. Now like for

30:45

somebody like Oppenheimer, I imagine there is some

30:48

sort of

30:48

key that you found to his humanity,

30:51

like, you know, like going into it. Because

30:53

like, even when I go into these conversations,

30:56

like I have to find like some

30:58

place to start. Yeah. Like,

31:00

you know, where did you start with that guy

31:03

in terms of like, who is this guy? Do

31:05

you think that way? I do. Of

31:08

course, at the beginning, it

31:11

was quite superficial. Uh-huh.

31:14

Because I wanted to get the silhouette

31:17

and the physicality right. Okay.

31:19

Right. Sure. He

31:22

had such a distinctive frame.

31:25

Yeah. And he was so

31:27

slim and so kind

31:29

of like underweight all of his life. Yeah.

31:32

And he just existed on like cigarettes and martinis.

31:35

Yeah. So, we spent an awful

31:37

lot of time with the,

31:38

you know, costume. So

31:41

I got the script like six months before we started shooting.

31:44

So, while I was reading all this stuff, I

31:46

was flying out here and we were doing camera tests

31:48

and makeup tests and costume tests. Right.

31:51

So, I really wanted to get that right

31:54

first. And sometimes, not always, that's

31:56

a way into the interior. So,

31:59

for me this time.

31:59

in

32:00

this particular character, the silhouette

32:03

and the look and the physicality was a

32:05

good way in. And then the voice, and

32:07

then reading a lot about his kind of

32:09

childhood and

32:12

particularly his adolescent years. Yeah.

32:14

Was quite... Helpful? Yeah.

32:17

And you just kind of put that into your brain? Yeah,

32:20

you know, that's what you... Yeah, yeah. I

32:22

don't, like, I don't trust it, but I imagine for

32:24

me, you know, as myself in

32:26

that, you know, like, I think I'm doing that,

32:29

but I haven't done enough acting to be convinced

32:31

that I'm doing it. Yeah.

32:34

I really struggle talking about

32:37

acting. Sure. Talking about the process,

32:39

talking about what it is. And there's all these, like,

32:42

stupid cliches, like it's alchemy and it's,

32:45

you know, but it kind of is. It

32:47

kind of don't know what happens. You do all

32:49

the work and I love

32:50

research and I do it all, but ultimately

32:52

when you get on the floor

32:53

between you and your partner and the director,

32:56

that's where it happens. Right. And

32:58

that's why I don't love rehearsal because that's

33:00

where it happens. And I really, really

33:02

rely on instinct. Yeah.

33:04

Well, that's, you have to. It's clear because that's

33:06

where the moments happen. Yeah. But like,

33:10

I don't know how much you know about me or the

33:12

show, but I mean, I have sort of an obsession

33:15

with Ireland. Yeah, I know you've been there recently

33:17

as well. I was there recently, but also, like,

33:19

you know, there was a period there where I'm like, I'm going to move there.

33:22

But lately,

33:23

it's shifted because, like,

33:26

I realize it's too far away. I'm not

33:28

Irish. It's not like they're just going to embrace

33:31

me. And now I'm doing a whole comedy bit about being

33:33

the, you know, just the guy in the

33:35

sort of, in the county where I'm just the

33:37

Jew who bought the farm and how

33:41

locals are just watching me try to shear sheep

33:43

and I'm chasing after them. They're going, it looked easy on

33:45

the video. So,

33:49

so like I've shifted a bit, but I'm still sort

33:51

of fascinated with how

33:54

down to earth the culture

33:55

is. And, and the last trip I took,

33:57

I went to the theater impulsively.

33:59

And I don't do that a lot. You know,

34:02

I wish I went more. It's not part of my life But

34:04

for some reason I was in Ireland I was in Dublin

34:07

and there was something at the Abbey Theatre. I'm like well fuck it

34:09

what just go watch it It sounds interesting and

34:12

it struck me differently than my experience

34:14

with American theatre because it felt like it

34:16

was something that People did in

34:19

Ireland that theater was vital somehow

34:21

am I am I misreading that? No, I

34:24

think you're right It definitely

34:26

is very vital. Yeah, I saw the the

34:28

solar bones. Oh, yeah That's

34:30

an adaptation of a novel. Yes, yeah, Mike

34:32

McCormack novel and the guy was Stanley Townsend

34:35

Do you know that great actor? Yeah, great

34:37

great actor and it's like it basically a one-man show cool

34:40

And it was it was that story the guy's dead,

34:42

you

34:42

know Yeah, yeah, and it's

34:45

an hour and a half of him sort of is it kind of a monologue

34:47

Yeah, it's all it's it's all him Excellent

34:49

and and it seemed interesting and then I wanted to read

34:51

the book and then I bought the book and then I'm like Yeah,

34:53

maybe I should move to Ireland. It's all ties together

34:56

But the experience of going to the Abbey

34:59

Theatre there. Yeah and looking at the

35:01

people that went it wasn't like, you know these

35:04

That kind of audience you see at American Theatre Even

35:07

like subscription kind of right? Yeah, it

35:09

seemed like people who were like, well, this is something

35:11

we need to do Yeah,

35:13

I think it does exist. I think it you

35:15

know, it can always be better, but

35:18

I think there's great when

35:20

there's a great tradition of theater in Ireland, you know and

35:24

There's

35:24

a great festival in Galway

35:27

where I've done a lot of theater work. Yeah, we're Arts Festival

35:30

And there's you know, there's the the gay

35:32

theater and there's obviously the Abbey that you're

35:34

at. Yeah, so there's great theater

35:36

makers there

35:39

So yeah, and and and there's the Dublin

35:41

Theatre Festival and young people do go along

35:43

if that's what you mean Like yeah, not

35:45

just it's not just gray hair you see in the

35:48

audience Well, what did you like you don't come from

35:50

a family that you're not you're not from a family of artists

35:53

No teachers

35:55

Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's supportive In

35:58

what way? I mean if you always

35:59

I feel like teachers are not going to be sort

36:02

of like, what are you doing with your life? Depends

36:05

on the teacher, I suppose. I

36:07

guess that's true. I

36:10

guess I always think of them as relatively progressive.

36:14

Yeah. Well, my

36:16

mom and dad, they're retired now,

36:18

they're both teachers, and then my grandfather was

36:21

like a headmaster. Oh, that's different. It's

36:23

their job to go, what are you doing with your life? And

36:26

then all my aunties and uncles, the majority of

36:28

them are teachers.

36:29

Where'd you grow up in Ireland? In Cork. Yeah,

36:32

see that's the one place I haven't been. Oh, man. That's

36:34

the place?

36:35

That's the best county. Really? I

36:38

have to say that. No, it's beautiful. Cork

36:40

and Kerry are my kind of favorite

36:42

parts of Ireland. I was in Dublin, and I drove

36:44

over to Galway, and then we were up in Donegal. Oh,

36:47

yeah, beautiful. That's where we spend most

36:49

of the time. That's stunning up there. Not

36:51

much up there. No, which is kind of what

36:53

makes it attractive. But when you drive into

36:56

towns, you're like, what happened here? But

37:01

I don't know if that's the right response, but

37:04

it did seem a little isolated

37:05

in some places. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

37:08

But so

37:10

how does it go? Like, do you have

37:12

brothers and sisters? I'm the eldest

37:14

of four. Four? Yes. And are

37:16

any of them artists? No,

37:20

not professionally. My brother is an excellent

37:22

pianist, jazz

37:23

pianist. Oh, yeah? He can do

37:25

it. He can do it. He's really, really good.

37:28

Yeah. And he used to play in the band with me when

37:30

we were kids. What was that band's called? We

37:33

were called

37:34

The Sons of Mr. Greenjaws. Oh, there you go. Yeah. Could

37:36

you play Zappa?

37:38

Man, it's hard to play Zappa. Yeah, I'll say.

37:41

No, we were fans. Yeah. None

37:43

of the totally avant-avant guard

37:45

stuff, more of the kind of hot rats

37:48

and stuff. The fun stuff. Yeah, that stuff.

37:50

Yeah, yeah.

37:52

So he's stuck with it? No,

37:55

he's now a product designer. Oh, but he can

37:57

play piano. Yeah, he's really, really good at the piano.

37:59

books around, there was, you know,

38:03

we would go to a lot of music, like traditional

38:05

Irish music. Oh yeah. A lot of sessions

38:07

in pubs, that kind of thing. Those would seem exciting.

38:09

I don't know a lot about them other than the the

38:12

the the banshees of an issue.

38:14

Was it? In a share. In a share.

38:17

Like that seemed to capture something about that

38:19

pub playing business. Yeah,

38:21

yeah, that it wouldn't be the sort

38:23

of session that I would have gone to as a kid. That's a

38:25

very idealized, stylized,

38:27

beautiful. Sure. That's a small

38:30

pub version. Like there's 12 people in the

38:32

town. Exactly. You know, the sort of

38:34

sessions I would go to would be a pub in the city

38:36

and you'd fall asleep under the

38:39

bench, you know, and then you'd be taken. But

38:41

there were great great great music. So,

38:45

but in terms of like

38:46

creativity, if that's what you're

38:48

asking, it was around.

38:51

And I was always from a from

38:53

a young age, I was interested in story.

38:55

I was interested in

38:57

music and I was interested

38:59

later on in film. Yeah. But

39:01

so it starts with with story. Yeah,

39:04

I love I love stories. Yeah, like

39:06

like what? Your big reader? Yeah, I

39:08

love to read novels mostly. Yeah,

39:10

like Irish ones?

39:12

From anywhere. But do you remember like which

39:14

one was sort of like, holy shit, this is fucking

39:16

amazing. In terms of Irish

39:18

novels. What just in terms of any novel that might have blown

39:20

your mind? There's a few like there's a writer in Ireland

39:23

called John McGaurin. Yeah. He's a stunning

39:25

writer and there's a writer called John

39:28

Banffell. There's a writer called Claire

39:30

Keegan. These are like, you

39:32

know, stories that I

39:34

discovered. And I've always just been fascinated

39:37

by story. What do you think it is

39:39

about? Well, I mean, story is one thing, but

39:42

there's something like, you know, maybe I'm romanticizing

39:44

it. Maybe I'm reading into it, but there seems to be something

39:47

obviously heavy hearted about

39:49

Irish, the Irish arts, other than the music kind

39:51

of, but the stories and the plays.

39:53

And there's just something about, I don't

39:56

know, man, I just get this feeling that it's

39:58

not darkness, but it's.

39:59

sort of like a melancholy.

40:02

Yeah, or an acceptance of the darkness.

40:05

Yeah. Is that

40:07

sort of the type of books those were?

40:09

Perhaps, yeah. That's always the stuff that

40:11

I've been interested in. That's always

40:13

the kind of story I've been interested in,

40:15

is that kind of naughty, Gordian,

40:18

weird,

40:19

kind of

40:21

like fucked up part of

40:23

our human psyche. That's always the stuff

40:25

I've been interested in. Yeah. It

40:28

kind of builds your brain. I think that's

40:30

the most, it's the stuff that's ripe

40:32

for drama. You know, a good man's life is

40:35

probably quite boring, whereas the

40:37

other, you know, it's not the most interesting

40:40

story. If it even exists. Well, for sure,

40:42

yeah. I think a lot of those stories start

40:44

out with a good man's life, and then we

40:46

find out, oh, that

40:49

guy's not so good. Now it's interesting.

40:51

Yeah, exactly. So, but

40:53

do you start, were you like writing?

40:56

Was the idea like what kind of, did you,

40:59

you grew up Catholic? Yeah, yeah.

41:01

But not too hardcore? No, and then

41:03

kind of abandoned this one as soon as I could,

41:05

you know. Yeah, a lot of people do. Yeah.

41:08

Was it, what was your moment

41:11

where you're like, I don't really

41:14

know. Yeah, it was slow. It

41:16

was gradual. Yeah, I mean, it was just

41:19

everywhere in Ireland. You know, you just,

41:21

you went to mass, and you got to your communion, you

41:23

got your confirmation, you did all of that. You went

41:25

to, I was taught by brothers, it was just everywhere.

41:28

Yeah. But then, you know, as you start

41:30

to examine things a bit more

41:33

closely, you begin to question things. Yeah,

41:36

and I imagine the stories helped with

41:38

that. For sure, yeah. Yeah, that's

41:40

always the good part about

41:43

being a sort of sensitive, interested

41:46

young person is that you start to realize like, no,

41:48

this is bullshit. Yeah, well that's one

41:50

of the great things about adolescence,

41:52

isn't it? Yeah, kind of. Yeah, that's when

41:55

the fuck you eventually sort

41:57

of starts to settle in. Yeah,

41:59

yeah.

41:59

Did you have that in you? Fuck

42:02

you. Yeah,

42:04

but like I was in school, I would get

42:06

thrown out of class, but it was never malicious.

42:09

So it was just kind of like a... You

42:11

weren't an outlaw. No, not

42:13

really, no. But I was always interested

42:16

in kind of... I was always curious about artists.

42:19

Because I never encountered them, you know? I

42:21

never met any... And the idea

42:23

of somebody making a living

42:25

from making art of whatever form

42:27

I thought was incredibly romantic. Yeah.

42:31

And they seemed very alien to me. And

42:33

I grew up in the 80s in Ireland, so you two were doing it, right? Sure. It

42:38

was like Jim Sheridan and Neil Jordan. But generally,

42:41

it

42:41

was hard to make a living. You

42:44

talk about the theatre scene now in Ireland, and it's

42:46

vibrant. But back in the 80s and stuff like

42:48

that, it was very hard. It was good stuff. Was

42:52

Tommy Tierney around? Tommy Tierney

42:54

has been around. I heard your podcast

42:56

with Tommy. That was excellent. You guys

42:59

had a good old chinwag. Yeah, well, you know,

43:01

comics. But you remember him from

43:03

when you were a kid? Yeah. He

43:07

was famously on the Late Late Show. He

43:10

was full of the fuck you. That was his brand for a

43:11

while. But now he's sort

43:14

of the wise old man. It's very thoughtful. Yeah,

43:16

yeah, yeah. It's

43:19

interesting to see somebody evolve like that. Yeah, he's a good

43:21

actor too. He is a good actor, yeah. So

43:24

you start to realize, well, some

43:27

people make a living, but not most. Exactly.

43:30

Or else you just go away.

43:32

You know, like people like Liam

43:34

Neeson or Gabriel Byrne. You

43:37

just go away. Yeah.

43:40

And then it works out. There

43:42

was a part of your brain that's like, I have to leave for this

43:45

to work out. That's a kind of very common

43:47

Irish narrative. Oh, yeah? I

43:49

went to London for 14 years and

43:51

then come back. And, you know, that seems

43:53

to be very common to go away and then

43:56

to come home.

43:59

I guess that's the nature of it.

43:59

of a small country in a small scene is

44:02

that you have a choice. Like, are you going to roll

44:04

the dice and become part of the big

44:06

scene? Yeah. Try to? Or are you just going

44:08

to settle for your place that

44:11

you've worked for in the small scene? Yeah, and

44:13

I guess that's a universal thing in small

44:15

towns. Sure. Yeah. Small cities, yeah. Yeah,

44:18

so... So when did you start acting

44:20

officially? When I was 20.

44:23

Yeah. What do you mark as the beginning,

44:26

when you got paid or when you got a real role? I mean, did you

44:28

do it when you were a kid? I did

44:29

a year of a law

44:32

degree, which was a terrible decision,

44:34

and I failed spectacularly.

44:36

What made you want to do that? What made you think you wanted to do that?

44:38

It was kind of parental, fresh.

44:41

Sure. Yeah, and just me

44:43

not quite figuring out

44:45

my path or whatever. Right. But

44:48

so, and then I did a few plays in college,

44:50

like amateur drama

44:53

stuff. And then

44:55

there was this theater company that were in Cork

44:57

City at the time. And they did a production

45:00

of Clockwork Orange in this nightclub in Cork

45:02

City, and it was fucking unbelievable.

45:04

It was promenade,

45:07

and it was techno music

45:09

and all the actors had Mohawks, and all

45:12

the droogs were... It

45:16

was fucking... Blew my mind. Right. Absolutely

45:19

blew my mind. So I then used to... I

45:21

knew the guys around the theater company, and I used to kind of

45:23

see them around in pubs and cork, and I would

45:25

pass to them. And eventually, I got

45:28

an audition for a play, and

45:30

I did the audition,

45:31

and I got the part, and that was a play called

45:34

Disco Pigs. Yeah. And that...

45:36

So we toured that

45:37

for a long time, and then eventually they

45:39

made that into a movie. So that's how it started. So,

45:42

coming at it though, that's when you

45:44

were what, 19 or something? Yeah, I was like 19, 20, yeah. So

45:48

was it a huge production or just a weird local

45:51

production? No, it was tiny. It was only two of us. It was

45:53

me and Eileen Walsh,

45:55

my good pal, and it was directed by Pak Hernan. It was written

45:58

by Enda Walsh, who's still on the show.

45:59

I'm still working with. Oh, this is Disco Pigs. Correct,

46:02

yeah. But the Clockwork Orange thing was this one. Oh, that one.

46:04

That was,

46:06

it was just, it was like site-specific,

46:09

so they only put it on in that nightclub. So it was kind

46:11

of this avant-garde kind of thing. Yeah. And

46:14

it was like a happening, like

46:16

an event. Totally, and it was fucking dangerous,

46:18

you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was dangerous and sexy,

46:21

and I was just knocked out. It looks like never being

46:23

to the

46:24

traditional theater. Sure. But what

46:26

a great experience to have. Like I

46:28

saw a production of Sam Shepard's Tooth of

46:30

Crime that was put on by a guy

46:32

that I worked at the restaurant with in high school, and

46:34

it was crazy. Yeah. Like I didn't

46:37

even know what the fuck I was watching. And you're like, oh my

46:39

God, I don't know if I understand this,

46:41

but I want to be part of this somehow.

46:44

Yeah, exactly, that's exactly what I felt. Yeah, and

46:47

so Disco Pigs, that was also a small production.

46:49

You knew the- It started as a very small production,

46:52

and then it toured, we brought it to

46:54

like the Dublin Theater Festival, and then we brought it to

46:56

the Edinburgh Festival in London. What's that about?

46:59

The play? Yeah. It's about

47:01

these two teenagers that are like

47:04

not related,

47:05

but

47:09

brought up side by side, and they developed this kind of

47:11

patois, this language together that

47:13

nobody else can understand, and then the relationship

47:15

gets very, very heavy and very intense, and then my

47:17

character wants to

47:19

take it to the next level and make it sexual,

47:21

and this is what the other character does, and it's kind of about

47:24

the fracture of the relationship. Oh yeah. So

47:26

it was very contained, very powerful, brilliantly

47:29

written,

47:30

and it kind of exploded, it ablated.

47:33

What year was that?

47:34

And why do you think it exploded?

47:36

What was it speaking to? I think

47:38

it was the language, it was the writing, and

47:41

it was a brilliant

47:43

production and a great soundtrack.

47:46

And these were all people around your age, the director

47:49

and the writer and your co-star? Yeah.

47:51

So you didn't really study acting?

47:54

No. How,

47:56

but theater for me was- No, no, I'm

47:58

not laughing at you. I

48:00

know. It

48:04

felt to me that like once I

48:06

started on the stage that was university.

48:10

I was learning all the time and you

48:12

know you do a play you do it

48:14

endlessly, relentlessly. We did that play for 18 months

48:17

non-stop and toured it all over the place. So you're being

48:20

directed, you're working with other actors, people

48:22

are chiming in and you're open-minded enough

48:25

to take it

48:26

in. Yeah man, but it felt for

48:28

me it was like a surrogate

48:30

band. You know felt like I was kind of going on tour

48:33

except

48:33

not with the band but with these other piles

48:36

of mine and we were like doing the play

48:38

late at night and going out drinking and having a great

48:40

time in festivals. So if I

48:42

was having the same experience that I would have had in the band

48:44

that had just collapsed. Yeah, except

48:46

you didn't have to be like you know what you missed that

48:49

drum solo. You had to yell

48:51

at your peers about fucked

48:53

up notes. But how

48:55

close with the band did you get to like being

48:57

a band? We were offered a record

49:00

deal but then like

49:01

our various parents intervened. Because

49:04

you were kids? Well I was of age

49:06

but my brother was only 16 or

49:09

something and then a few of the other parents didn't

49:11

approve and it was a shitty deal. It wouldn't have

49:13

worked out. What kind of music was it? It was

49:15

kind of you know we were influenced by

49:17

Zappa kind of yeah kind of like and acid

49:19

jazz. Do you remember that acid jazz? But

49:22

we're a bit late to the scene. But

49:24

it was like long guitar solos and kind

49:26

of you know. You were doing the solo? No,

49:29

I played a rhythm guitar. We

49:31

had an amazing job. It

49:34

wasn't commercial, it didn't also didn't

49:37

record very well. Do you know what I mean? It was

49:39

good live but it didn't work in a studio very

49:41

well. Yeah, yeah. So

49:45

it just kind of broke apart for a lot of different reasons. Exactly.

49:48

Yeah. So okay so you toured Disco

49:50

Pig for what a year? More? Yeah

49:52

around 18 months. And then you're in.

49:54

You're like this is it. This is the life for me. I

49:56

think so yeah and then but then

49:58

I got an age.

49:59

agent, you know, through that. And then, but then I had

50:02

a year like- In Ireland or where? In Ireland. Yeah.

50:04

Then I had a year just on the dole, you know,

50:06

just at home, like making

50:09

sandwiches. And

50:12

after disco pic? Yeah, watching the telly. So

50:14

how did that go for you? What was the reflection? What

50:16

were you being sent out for by your agent in,

50:19

where were you still in Cork? Oh

50:21

man, yeah, but I was the shittest auditioner.

50:24

Like I was so bad. Yeah, that's

50:26

why I never took up acting. But it's awful,

50:28

isn't it? I mean, I can't imagine

50:30

what you were going out for, you know, in,

50:33

locally. Were you being sent for commercials?

50:35

It was, no, I was in Dublin, yeah, commercials

50:36

or like- Oh, you went to Dublin? Yeah. Okay.

50:39

But I was so bad in a

50:41

room, I felt so insecure

50:44

and sort of embarrassed

50:47

by the whole atmosphere.

50:48

Totally. Because you

50:50

walk in, there's 10 guys sort of all

50:53

jacked up, ready to do the exact

50:55

same thing you're going to do. Yeah, yeah.

50:58

And I was just full

51:00

of kind of, I don't know,

51:02

insecurity. So I just, I was terrible.

51:05

But eventually, you get one job. Yeah. And

51:08

what was that?

51:09

It was more theater, just more theater, yeah.

51:11

Oh, so that, but that's good? Yeah. Right?

51:14

Yeah, great. I worked with this company

51:16

in Galway, actually drew a theater company. Yeah. Did

51:19

a few plays with them. And again, was learning, watching

51:21

great actors, watching great directors and- What

51:24

happened to the movie of Disco Pig? We

51:26

did that

51:27

about four years after the play. And

51:30

was that, that wasn't your first movie? No,

51:32

I'd done Little Bits, Little Parts. But that was

51:34

a kind of first big kind of lead, I think. Yeah,

51:37

and how was that experience? Oh, I loved

51:39

it. Yeah, you did. I loved it. Yeah. And

51:41

did the movie get any, did

51:44

it get any traction? It did well, yeah. I went to festivals

51:47

and it was small, but I think it got a good

51:49

response. Was there anything happening to you personally

51:51

in terms of how you were experiencing

51:54

this as an art or that, you know, that

51:58

the things that you were doing? Was it

52:00

transforming you into something as you got

52:03

confident? Did you start to enjoy

52:05

it more in a different way? I loved to be

52:07

I loved being on stage. I've Strangely,

52:09

I've never felt nervous going on stage

52:12

where I felt really nervous

52:14

on film

52:15

I've never I've always why do you think that is

52:17

because in whatever warped logic I

52:20

had in my brain Yeah, was that you go

52:22

on stage and if you don't have a very good

52:24

show, yeah You can just fix it then tomorrow

52:26

next day Yeah, and even if the show isn't going well,

52:28

you can you can help it along and you can you

52:31

know You

52:33

can just you know get it back but yeah, whereas

52:35

if you if you're terrible on film you're terrible

52:38

forever and I was so

52:41

I was found it

52:43

really unnatural and then the you

52:45

know the When

52:46

they would say action and everything would stop.

52:49

Yeah, and like all these electricians

52:51

and construction guys Sure, like everyone just pause

52:53

and stop everything's focused on you. Yeah, so

52:56

when I was young I found that

52:58

Horrifying sure. Yeah,

53:00

but but there's always the option as you get older. You

53:02

realize that some directors like can we do that?

53:04

Yeah And they go sure I Find

53:09

that to be you know, kind of unsatisfying

53:12

what The the

53:14

stopping and starting. Yes with

53:17

film and television, you know, because you

53:19

can't really get a role going You know

53:21

you you realize you're like, oh, this is all

53:23

gonna be put together later. You're shooting at a sequence

53:26

All you can focus on is, you

53:28

know showing up for the moment that you're shooting Yeah,

53:30

and sometimes you do you're literally shooting like, you

53:33

know, three minutes in a day Yeah,

53:35

and it's hard to contextualize it. Yeah, so

53:38

I'm yet to for personally to find it totally

53:40

rewarding Yeah, you know in those moments.

53:43

Yeah, I think

53:43

it I think I

53:45

think it can be but you really have to

53:48

I don't know You have to be really working

53:50

with good people. Sure. I think that's what

53:52

it is People that really

53:54

push push you. Yeah. Yeah, and and I

53:57

find that

53:59

once you kind

53:59

of accept that you're just given the raw materials,

54:03

you're just handing it over, and then

54:05

they're going to make it into something. Yeah. Right.

54:09

You know that. Yeah. Yeah.

54:12

What was this play, The Wind That Shakes the Bar? No, that was a movie. That

54:14

was a movie. Yeah. Well, what was that?

54:17

Because that sounded pretty provocative. I didn't see it. That

54:19

was a film directed by Ken Loach, and

54:22

it was set in Cork. Yeah. And

54:24

it was about the War of Independence and the Civil War

54:26

in Ireland. Right. And this was, was

54:29

that the first time you had to do something that that was that

54:31

connected to

54:32

the history? Yeah.

54:34

And like, but what was that like? Amazing.

54:37

I mean, he's one of my heroes, Ken Loach. Great director.

54:40

Yeah. Unbelievable. In

54:42

fact, making that film kind of profoundly changed the way I approach

54:44

working on film because he shoots everything chronologically.

54:47

Oh, God. Well, that's what a gift that is. Isn't it?

54:50

Yeah. I mean, every film should be made like that. Totally.

54:53

Obviously, we can. last

54:56

scene first because we

54:58

have to for the whatever. And you're like, what? I don't

55:00

even know how this is going to go. Yeah. Or

55:03

I find

55:04

inevitably they shoot the love

55:06

scene on the first day. Oh, my God. It's

55:08

so uncomfortable. It's so awkward. But

55:11

that movie, what was it about Loach other than that

55:14

that changed the way you sort of because

55:16

he and I think I talked about this at the beginning

55:19

because it's not intellectual,

55:21

it's instinctual. So, because there's

55:23

no script, you haven't been poring over it and making

55:25

notes on it and making your pretentious choices.

55:28

You just come in and sometimes

55:30

stuff was happening

55:33

for real

55:34

that I wasn't aware of. And

55:37

so you're just reacting completely spontaneously and

55:39

completely truthfully. And you're not making

55:41

a choice. And

55:43

I love that. Right. But

55:46

you do make choices at some point. At

55:48

some point you do. But when you

55:50

feel that spontaneous,

55:52

just your body reacting to something,

55:55

that's what you want to chase down, I think

55:57

in film. But did it all sort of fall into

55:59

place?

55:59

in the sense that you're talking

56:02

about the history of your

56:04

country, and there's

56:06

still attention. Did it

56:09

connect you to something deeper?

56:11

Yeah, I think so. Yeah, because I

56:14

found out lots of stuff about my family that they had been

56:16

involved in the

56:18

struggle way back that I wasn't aware

56:20

of. Like what?

56:21

Oh, lots of little stories about

56:24

cousins on my mother's side. It had a big

56:28

impact. How

56:31

did you find those stories out? I found them out like years

56:33

later, after I'd done the movie. Oh, so

56:35

people were telling you, like the family was telling you?

56:37

I don't know if you knew this kind of

56:39

stuff? Exactly, yeah. Wow. But

56:41

also, the thing with that movie, civil

56:44

wars are traumatic, and the civil

56:46

war in Ireland,

56:49

the movie came out, I don't know when the movie came out, but up

56:51

until that point, there were still a lot of people

56:53

that didn't talk. It split families, and

56:57

a lot of people went to see that movie. But

57:00

interestingly, it was made by an Englishman, so

57:02

he had a different perspective

57:04

on it. And I'm

57:06

very proud of that movie, actually. Yeah,

57:09

but you'd already been acting a long time by the time you did that.

57:12

I suppose, yeah. Yeah. What

57:14

would you consider your break was? Was it 28 days away?

57:17

I suppose so, yeah.

57:18

Yeah, the non-zombie guy. That

57:23

movie was pretty huge. Yeah, well it kind

57:25

of reinvented the zombie genre,

57:27

didn't it? I didn't realize that.

57:29

I think didn't it introduce us

57:31

to the idea of the fast zombie? Yes.

57:34

Yeah. I think, what's that the first movie where they

57:36

actually ran? Yeah, yeah, it was sort

57:38

of like that made me realize, like,

57:40

all right, now we're dealing with two types of zombies.

57:43

The ones that you cannot run, and

57:44

then the ones that you can kind of poke fun at as you run

57:47

away. Yeah, yeah. And then also,

57:49

it wasn't, it was a rage virus, do you

57:51

remember? That was what was so distinctive about

57:53

it, and quite clever. Yeah. And when

57:55

you decide to do movies, like,

57:57

what are you deciding? Like, how do you decide?

57:59

Just on the script or?

58:02

Oh well, it's a, oh god, I

58:04

don't know, I never know how to answer this question. I'm

58:07

sorry, do you know it's the same question? No,

58:09

but you know, so I was reading somewhere that Robert

58:11

Mitchell looks at it and he goes, location

58:13

and how many days off. Yeah. And

58:16

then, you know, I mean, some people look at it like that, I wish I

58:18

could be like that. No, I wanted to, this

58:20

is the cliche answer, you know, I want to challenge myself

58:22

and work with great people. Sure. But

58:25

that is kind of the truth. It never plays

58:27

into it, it's like, where is it and how long? I

58:29

mean, I wish I could feel like that.

58:32

You know, you're in Malta, you've got two weeks off.

58:35

Well, not even the time off, but sometimes it's sort of like, this

58:37

is going to take a year. Yeah.

58:39

I don't work in movies that take a year. You know?

58:41

I've never worked in a movie that's taken a year. How long did Oppenheimer

58:44

take? We made that movie unbelievably

58:46

quickly. We made it in like 57 days

58:48

or something. Come on. Yeah,

58:51

it was insane. The pace of that was insane. Post

58:53

COVID? Yeah. Yeah.

58:56

So you really knocked it out because like, yeah, I'm trying to remember

58:58

when I saw you on that plane. How

59:00

did you begin? How did your relationship with no one begin? So

59:04

that was like 20 years ago. I

59:07

think he'd seen 28 days later,

59:09

actually. Okay. And then

59:12

we met up here in LA and

59:15

he for some reason wanted me to screen test

59:17

for Batman, which I think I

59:19

knew and he knew I was wrong for, but

59:21

I did the test.

59:23

And then he saw something in that and cast me as the

59:25

scarecrow. And then we continue

59:27

to make him move. You knew

59:30

it was wrong? I don't think I'm quite the physical specimen

59:32

to play Bruce Wayne. Yeah,

59:35

but I mean, but like, you know, like Bale, he's

59:37

no monster. He's no giant. Yeah, but

59:39

man, he transformed

59:42

himself into that role

59:44

and he's done many, many times. I think he defined

59:46

that role as Batman. I

59:48

wonder, you know, like he's

59:51

your Batman. Well, obviously he was your Batman.

59:53

Yeah. But in

59:55

all the Batmans. Who do you like? Oddly,

59:59

there's.

59:59

There's something about the way Michael Keaton

1:00:02

did it that I really liked. Love those moments,

1:00:04

yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Because like there was

1:00:06

something like he was like a bat. You

1:00:08

know, he was doing the sing with his eyes. You know, like

1:00:11

it was something. He made this very

1:00:13

defined choice. Yeah, he did. I love

1:00:15

those movies, yeah. I like the way Val Kilmerwood

1:00:17

looked, but I didn't love his Batman. I actually

1:00:19

tried on the Val Kilmer suit in the test.

1:00:22

Oh really? It was quite roomy. It

1:00:24

was...

1:00:25

It's a fucking operation getting into those things.

1:00:27

So they have all the suits there? Like you were with

1:00:29

Noah and you're like, which Batman

1:00:31

do you want to... I think the Kilmer one was the

1:00:34

one that everyone was trying on. Okay.

1:00:36

Yeah, but they have special guys that are just there.

1:00:39

They're just Batman suit guys? Yes. So

1:00:43

now do you put on the suit and

1:00:46

then look at yourself and be like, what are we doing here?

1:00:48

Exactly, yeah. Like the kid that it just... It doesn't

1:00:50

fit! It doesn't fit. No, it

1:00:52

didn't. It wasn't right. It wasn't

1:00:54

right.

1:00:55

Yeah. But all

1:00:57

I was there, I was just imagine this. I'm

1:01:00

getting to try on a suit, a Batman

1:01:02

suit, on the Warner's lot. Sure. Do

1:01:04

a screen test for Chris Nolan. That's all

1:01:06

my expectations were at that time. And that was your first

1:01:08

experience with him?

1:01:10

Yeah. And then you get

1:01:12

the other role, the bad guy role. The scarecrow,

1:01:14

yeah. And you

1:01:16

kind of owned that thing. That was fun, yeah.

1:01:19

Yeah. And what's it like hanging around

1:01:21

with Bale?

1:01:22

We didn't have that many scenes together.

1:01:24

We didn't cross paths that many times. Is

1:01:26

that weird? People don't realize that on movie sets. It's like

1:01:28

I just did a movie with Jude Law. Didn't see him once.

1:01:32

I never saw the guy. But you can still say that you did

1:01:34

a movie with Jude Law. Yeah, well he was producing it. He's

1:01:36

the main guy. I only had two scenes, but didn't

1:01:39

stop by to say hi. It happens

1:01:41

all the time, isn't it? I know. Yeah, you just... But

1:01:43

Jesus Oppenheimer, that was a huge cast. Oh

1:01:46

man. Everybody's in that

1:01:48

movie. I know. It's an

1:01:50

incredible... I imagine at this point in

1:01:52

your career, after working, wanting to work

1:01:54

with great people, that thing was

1:01:56

like they were all there. I

1:01:58

know. And it was unbelievable.

1:01:59

You had scenes with all of them. And I kind

1:02:02

of forget sometimes when I checked the call sheet, and, shit,

1:02:04

it's Gary Oldman's in tomorrow or Ken

1:02:07

Brana. And, you know, it was... The

1:02:09

role, that's crazy how many people... I

1:02:11

didn't even know Tom Conti was still alive. Tom

1:02:14

Conti is so brilliant in it. Yeah.

1:02:17

So brilliant in it. Downey's great. Good to see

1:02:20

Downey in a role that he could sort of

1:02:22

sink his teeth into. He's electric in that role, I

1:02:24

think. So

1:02:25

the relationship

1:02:26

with Nolan is like six movies long now.

1:02:29

Yep. Yeah. I mean, what have you learned from

1:02:31

that guy? How does he work? I think he's kind

1:02:33

of like... I think he might be the perfect director.

1:02:35

You know, he's got all of the facets that

1:02:38

you need in the perfect director. Yeah. He's

1:02:41

amazing with actors. He's incredibly

1:02:44

brilliant visually. He writes

1:02:46

the things himself. And

1:02:48

they're made for the theaters. You know, they are like

1:02:51

event movies. But they challenge

1:02:53

you. You know, I love the way he presupposes

1:02:56

a level of intelligence in the

1:02:58

audience. Yeah. It doesn't happen often. No.

1:03:01

And he knows the audience aren't dummies. And

1:03:03

he know the audience can keep up. And

1:03:05

he knows the audiences want to be provoked and

1:03:07

challenged. And I love working with

1:03:09

him. And he really pushes it. You know, he

1:03:12

expects the best from you. And he's

1:03:15

rigorous at everything and like demanding.

1:03:18

The sets are huge, too. I mean,

1:03:20

it's... But here's the weird thing. The sets are huge.

1:03:22

But it feels like being on an independent movie. There's just Chris

1:03:25

and the cameraman. One camera, always.

1:03:27

Unless there's some huge, huge set piece. And

1:03:30

the boom up and that's

1:03:32

it. And there's no video village. There's no monitors.

1:03:34

There's nothing. Oh, really? Yeah. He doesn't use

1:03:36

any of that? None of that. I mean, he's a very kind

1:03:38

of analog filmmaker. Interesting.

1:03:41

You know? Even on Dunkirk?

1:03:43

Mm-hmm.

1:03:44

Man. Yeah. And I didn't see a frame of this

1:03:46

movie until I saw the first teaser. Of

1:03:49

Oppenheim? Yeah. And I've never seen anything

1:03:51

on Chris's films

1:03:53

until I see the trailer or the finished

1:03:55

thing. Really? Yeah. And he rarely does

1:03:58

ADR. I've done six movies with him.

1:03:59

I've done like

1:04:01

four lines of ADR. No shit. Yeah,

1:04:03

because he records sound really well, and

1:04:06

he believes in production,

1:04:08

you know, production sound. And he

1:04:10

creates an environment for the actors. There's no

1:04:12

green screen. There's none of that.

1:04:16

I found it to be so like

1:04:18

the guy, there was, you know, it was a press

1:04:21

screening, so it wasn't packed. It wasn't a premiere

1:04:23

or anything. But whoever

1:04:25

was running it was like, all right, this is a 70 millimeter

1:04:28

print on film the way Chris wanted

1:04:30

you to

1:04:31

see it. Exactly. And

1:04:34

I felt like it does make a difference. I think

1:04:37

it does. And I was highly aware of it for some reason in

1:04:39

that movie. I know there's other movies that are shot

1:04:41

like that. I mean, Tarantino's shit's like that. But because

1:04:43

you're in IMAX,

1:04:44

you know, it's like, you know, it's different.

1:04:47

The effect is different. I mean, Chris says it's

1:04:49

kind of like 3D without being 3D. I

1:04:51

guess. To me, it just reminds me of like movies,

1:04:54

theaters when I was a kid, just a big old screen,

1:04:57

you know, where you feel like you really had an event.

1:05:00

Yeah. But like the opportunity and

1:05:02

like for me, like as look,

1:05:04

I did one scene with De Niro in passing

1:05:07

in Joker, you know, and

1:05:09

I'm sure he has no recollection of me. It didn't

1:05:11

matter. I was just whatever

1:05:14

it was. But,

1:05:14

you know, there is that awareness. And I imagine even

1:05:16

though you've done dozens of movies

1:05:19

at this point, there's awareness. Yeah,

1:05:21

these are just people. And certainly, you know, that actors

1:05:24

are painfully people. Yes, I do. But

1:05:27

you're aware that sort of like, all right, you know, game

1:05:30

on.

1:05:31

I'm sitting here with Casey Affleck. And

1:05:33

we've got to do this thing. Yeah. And

1:05:36

like, I always like seeing that guy. Yeah,

1:05:38

man, he's so good in the movie. That was great.

1:05:40

That was a big scene.

1:05:42

Yeah. Yeah. And he came in and he

1:05:44

was ready to go. And it was, again, like,

1:05:46

again, all these stupid kind of analogies. Yeah.

1:05:49

It does raise your game. It does make you better

1:05:51

when you're working with the best actors. It does do that. And

1:05:55

it's true. And this was a

1:05:57

perfect case in point. Like, you have these some of.

1:05:59

my favorite actors in the world because they

1:06:02

all want to work with Chris. Yeah. So they all come in and

1:06:04

they play these parts. And the other thing about the movie

1:06:06

I think is because you've got a lot of movie stars in it, but

1:06:08

every time, every character they play, they're very significant

1:06:11

characters. So it doesn't feel like a

1:06:13

cameos, if you know what I mean, because they're all playing

1:06:16

these real life characters who had a big

1:06:18

impact on the world. And also

1:06:20

I didn't feel the movie star-ness of anybody. Yeah.

1:06:23

And that's sort of a miracle. But it's just so

1:06:25

interesting that you had to carry this movie in

1:06:28

this character that

1:06:29

operates at a level. You

1:06:33

definitely have, you're holding on

1:06:35

to this stuff that you're talking about and his

1:06:37

affectation is what it is, which

1:06:40

doesn't, he is who he is

1:06:42

all the way through. And then you just, all of a sudden

1:06:44

these other actors, you got to deal with Downey

1:06:46

who steps into this thing. I

1:06:49

imagine that you're just holding on

1:06:51

to the character

1:06:53

you've built in certain moments. You

1:06:56

have to be aware of that. Like

1:06:58

you're sort of like, all right, just stay focused.

1:07:02

Yeah, of course. But

1:07:04

it was a joy, man. It was

1:07:06

a joy working with these actors. I

1:07:08

really felt, I'll probably never get a chance

1:07:11

to work with an ensemble of actors like that again.

1:07:13

It'll probably never happen. So I just,

1:07:16

I enjoyed every minute of it. Again, we

1:07:18

talked about learning. You

1:07:21

look at all those amazing actors, you work with all those amazing

1:07:23

actors, you're always learning. You're always figuring

1:07:25

stuff out as an actor. And this was like,

1:07:28

just special. And how about the Peaky Blinders?

1:07:31

That's been on, that's like a long running show

1:07:33

now. I think, yeah, well, I mean the TV version

1:07:35

is over. Yeah. But what's it like, six seasons?

1:07:38

Six seasons, yeah. Oh, there's a movie happening? There's

1:07:40

talk of a movie, yeah. Yeah, but

1:07:43

that experience has got to be almost like a family.

1:07:45

Yes, it was. Yeah, like a really violent, aggressive

1:07:49

family. But

1:07:52

did you like building a mobster? Yeah.

1:07:55

Well, I've never had a chance to play

1:07:57

a

1:07:58

character an eight.

1:07:59

with a character and so

1:08:02

I played him like I started playing him when I was 35 and

1:08:05

I finished playing when I was 45. Wow this is

1:08:07

kind of nuts. That's crazy. And I mean

1:08:09

the reason why that movie succeeded again I think

1:08:11

our TV shows yeah is because it's just

1:08:14

excellent writing.

1:08:15

Yeah. Excellent writing. There's some good

1:08:17

writing sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. So

1:08:19

what happens now though? Do you immediately start

1:08:22

working again?

1:08:24

I love not working. Well

1:08:26

that's part of the, isn't that part of why you got into it?

1:08:29

Yeah. But I know some actors just have

1:08:31

to work all the time and I really

1:08:33

enjoy. But you've got a family right? I do yeah.

1:08:35

What do you do with a family? Like did they come to New Mexico?

1:08:37

They didn't come to New Mexico. They came to LA

1:08:40

when we were in LA. Yeah. But again you know

1:08:42

when you when you're working like that it's not

1:08:44

a great environment. You're just coming

1:08:46

home you're exhausted you go to bed. You want to stay focused?

1:08:49

You don't want to talk about the work you know what I mean? And it's

1:08:51

not ideal. Yeah. We had some

1:08:53

fun but

1:08:54

no I just

1:08:56

love doing very boring

1:08:59

things you know. Well like. Me too.

1:09:01

I can spend a day just trying to figure out what I'm gonna eat.

1:09:03

Yes. I

1:09:05

love doing that man. Me too. It's the best day.

1:09:08

You get up and you're like I'm gonna go buy some stuff and

1:09:11

I'm gonna see if I can make this thing and then

1:09:13

I'm gonna eat it in 45 seconds. I'm gonna spend the entire

1:09:16

day

1:09:17

making something. I do the exact

1:09:19

same thing and I'll timetable it

1:09:21

so I go right it's gonna take me that long

1:09:23

to get to the shop. By the time I get back then I might

1:09:25

have a bath. Yeah. And then I'll make some

1:09:27

food. For me like a

1:09:30

day

1:09:31

is it's a full day's work

1:09:34

just to enjoy my life. Yeah. But

1:09:36

I like it. Isn't that but that's excellent.

1:09:39

I mean. I think so. I'm trying to

1:09:41

frame it properly. Oh. Like cuz there's

1:09:43

still part of me that's sort of like what are you doing man? You

1:09:46

got nothing to do? I know. Yeah.

1:09:49

And then like if you're not careful you start making

1:09:51

phone calls. Like what we got going. Yeah. You

1:09:53

know. And can you like cuz when I came in here

1:09:55

you were just like sitting outside. Yeah. Well

1:09:57

you weren't on your phone there or anything or just. No.

1:09:59

Oh, well, I just watched a King Crimson

1:10:02

video for some reason. I am

1:10:04

a little, I have a phone problem,

1:10:06

I think. I watched that, do you watch that Black Mirror?

1:10:08

The new season? Yeah. I watched

1:10:10

some of them, yeah. Did you watch that one, the Smitherines one with Andrew Scott?

1:10:13

You know that guy? I watched that, yeah. Do you know

1:10:15

that guy? I've worked with Andrew, I love him, yeah. Holy shit. He's

1:10:17

a good actor, man. Right? Yeah. Well,

1:10:20

you should watch that one. It's gonna make you think about your cell phone differently.

1:10:22

Did you watch that, Lock Henry? Did you

1:10:24

watch that? Yeah. That's good.

1:10:26

Yeah, that was crazy. That scared me. Well, there's

1:10:28

one. Yeah, you never knew

1:10:30

who you're talking to, right? But

1:10:33

the ones that are just horror,

1:10:36

like I don't love horror, but the ones

1:10:38

that are very close to the bone, sci-fi,

1:10:41

where it's sort of like, oh, that's kind of happening. I

1:10:43

can kind of

1:10:44

dig that. The Lock Henry felt like a horror

1:10:47

movie. It did, but I thought it was accidentally

1:10:49

done. Oh, sure. They're all kind of like amazingly

1:10:51

written. But like, so what else did you do to fill your

1:10:54

day? I can tell you how I do mine. Do

1:10:56

you exercise? I do, I like to run, play

1:10:59

the guitar, read books. Yeah, I play

1:11:01

guitar, yeah. I need to read more books.

1:11:04

Yeah. Can you say that? That's the one

1:11:06

thing I have a hard time doing. Oh, the phone has wrecked everything. Man,

1:11:09

the phone has wrecked everything. Sure. I

1:11:11

used to sit down and I would read a book. For

1:11:14

like three hours? Do you know what I did on the way over here

1:11:16

though? I read a full book on the plane on the

1:11:18

way over. What book? I read Sam Neale's

1:11:21

autobiography. Oh, yeah, and you just

1:11:23

work with him, right? Well, I worked with him for years. Yeah, about

1:11:26

years ago. And it's just a gorgeous,

1:11:28

funny, delicious

1:11:30

book. And it's kind of full of gossip and it's

1:11:33

just gorgeous. Yeah, I've talked to him, he's a character.

1:11:35

Was he on the show? Yeah. Oh man, he's

1:11:38

one of my favorite people in the business. Yeah, he's

1:11:40

a riot. Yeah, yeah. Fucking phenomenal

1:11:42

actor too. Yeah, he's just one of those guys, he's like

1:11:44

surprisingly, like has

1:11:47

a wit and kind of like an

1:11:50

endearing cynicism. Yes, he does.

1:11:52

You know, that's almost surprising. Same

1:11:54

with Hugh Grant. I talked to Hugh Grant and I

1:11:57

was like, oh my God, this guy's fucking hilarious.

1:11:59

Have you ever talked to that guy? I've never met him,

1:12:02

no. Oh my God. Like Hugh Grant,

1:12:04

now where he's like zero fuck guy, he's

1:12:06

just so funny. It

1:12:09

must be so liberating. Oh

1:12:11

yeah. I think that if you make it through

1:12:14

all the hoops and you're okay and

1:12:16

you're unscathed and you know where you're at

1:12:18

and you can kind of be like, I'm done with whatever

1:12:21

you're expecting. Yeah. And

1:12:23

you just punch through it all. Sure. Yeah.

1:12:26

Yeah. And he took

1:12:28

some hits. Yeah. You cook too? Yeah,

1:12:30

I do. But like, I mean, I have a limited repertoire,

1:12:33

but I cook. Yeah. What do you cook?

1:12:35

What's the favorite thing? Do you take risks?

1:12:39

Not really, no.

1:12:40

Not really. You know the way if you make one thing well, you

1:12:42

just keep making that. Of course, especially if it's

1:12:44

like healthy and you know, you can eat it all the time.

1:12:46

Yeah, I do that. I've been doing, I've

1:12:49

been vegan lately. So I've been trying the vegan

1:12:51

thing as well. How's that going? I miss

1:12:53

cheese. Oh, cheese is the

1:12:56

one you miss. Terribly. Yeah? I'm

1:12:58

a cheese guy and I'm not finding that I miss meat so much.

1:13:01

And I kind of like the vegan thing because

1:13:03

you need to sort of figure out a bunch of variety.

1:13:06

I think you have a better shot at variety than you would if you were

1:13:08

just eating meat and potatoes.

1:13:10

Yeah, for sure. Because there's all different things you can eat. But

1:13:12

I start to worry, I'm like, am I getting enough of this thing? Yeah.

1:13:15

Am I eating too much of that thing? What about vitamins? I

1:13:18

don't know how our brains got so fucked up about

1:13:21

the food pyramid and the meat paradigm.

1:13:23

You know,

1:13:23

sort of like this idea that we

1:13:25

need the meat, but I'm not missing it.

1:13:28

I don't miss the meat. No, I've been off the meat for

1:13:30

a long time. I did have a kind of a relapse and

1:13:32

I didn't feel any better.

1:13:34

So I'm back off it again. Oh, on meat? Yeah.

1:13:37

What'd you relapse on?

1:13:38

Venison. Oh, yeah? Huh.

1:13:41

Well, at least it was sort of an exotic meat. Yeah,

1:13:43

it was very nice. But, yeah, no, I don't eat

1:13:45

it anymore. Yeah. Ethical

1:13:47

reasons?

1:13:48

Health reasons. Both now. Yeah.

1:13:51

At the beginning, it was just

1:13:53

like, there was loads of mad cow disease

1:13:55

and all that stuff happening. That's some

1:13:57

of the catering. It was all fucking in movement.

1:15:59

generally pretty down to earth

1:16:02

and pretty decent people. I

1:16:04

don't know morally or anything else, but my feeling

1:16:07

for them is that

1:16:09

there's not this menace to them. No,

1:16:13

Irish people are pretty laid back in general. It's so funny

1:16:15

though, because then I've told this, I've made this observation

1:16:17

before, because I spent years in

1:16:19

Boston, doing comedy and

1:16:22

going to school and everything else. And I really had

1:16:24

a, I was very nervous around

1:16:27

the Boston Irish because they were scary. I'm

1:16:30

generalizing, but there was

1:16:32

tough fucking Irish characters in

1:16:35

Boston. And I'm sure as you know,

1:16:38

when they, well, here's

1:16:40

the thing though, the first time I went to Ireland, I

1:16:43

saw all these Irish people and they were kind of the same.

1:16:46

And so I was kind of terrified at first. And

1:16:48

then when they're all like, hey, I'm like, oh my God,

1:16:51

they're totally different. What did America do

1:16:53

to the Irish? Hardened

1:16:55

them up. I don't know. I don't know

1:16:57

the answers. But do you know what I'm saying?

1:16:59

It's interesting. It is interesting. I've never

1:17:01

been to Boston. So I can't offer an opinion.

1:17:04

Yeah, weirdly I've never been. That's right. That

1:17:06

was sort of built by the Irish. Yeah. Yeah.

1:17:09

Huh.

1:17:10

Well, it was great talking to you. Great talking

1:17:12

to you, Mark. You feel good? Yeah, man. Thanks

1:17:15

for coming, man. Of course, it was a pleasure. I love the show.

1:17:17

Thanks. And I'm gonna give you a one

1:17:20

of a kind mug. Oh, man. If it's

1:17:22

gonna make, it'll make it home, because you leave it tomorrow.

1:17:25

All right, man. Thank

1:17:26

you. That

1:17:30

was Killian Murphy in an interview

1:17:30

recorded on June 27th. Hang

1:17:35

out for a minute.

1:17:40

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1:17:42

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1:17:44

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it's better for the planet. So fire

1:18:05

up your grill and start making meat history

1:18:07

today. Just head over to the meat aisle

1:18:10

at your local grocery store, grab

1:18:12

some impossible beef or patties and

1:18:14

get grilling.

1:18:15

All right? So

1:18:17

folks, you'll be hearing a lot from SAG-AFTRA

1:18:19

president Fran Drescher in the coming days

1:18:21

and weeks. But if you're interested in hearing more about

1:18:24

her life becoming the union president, you

1:18:26

can hear my 2020 interview with her right

1:18:28

now in whatever podcast app you're using.

1:18:30

But

1:18:30

I am relishing the fact that I'm finally

1:18:33

at a place in my life where

1:18:35

I'm happy to be alone.

1:18:37

Yeah. I find that

1:18:39

I consider that major growth

1:18:42

on my part. Look, man, if you're

1:18:44

like a person that has had

1:18:47

issues with boundaries or codependency

1:18:49

or overcare giving, it

1:18:52

just becomes like a relief

1:18:54

at some point once you have a certain amount of acceptance

1:18:57

to be like, I don't fucking need

1:19:00

to deal with that. Exactly.

1:19:01

Right. And I knew when I

1:19:04

was getting better, because people would, you

1:19:06

know, I surrounded myself with, you know, basket

1:19:09

cases. I needed to be needed.

1:19:11

Right. You're addicted to people. And

1:19:14

now I don't have that need anymore.

1:19:16

And when people would start telling me the problem, once

1:19:19

I was able to realize that

1:19:22

it was my way of avoiding my own problems

1:19:25

by giving myself a false sense of being

1:19:29

together. Yeah. And

1:19:31

having my shit together. Right. Being

1:19:33

there for other people. Yeah. And once I was able

1:19:35

to finally admit that I'm as fucked up as you

1:19:38

are, I tell people, you know, all

1:19:40

I can tell you is find yourself a really

1:19:42

good shrink and lay on that

1:19:44

couch. Yeah. And, you know.

1:19:46

Sure. Figure it out. Who

1:19:49

are you? Yeah. Go for the jugular. Yeah.

1:19:51

Why are you fucked up? What's happening? That's

1:19:53

episode 1,113 with Fran Drescher from 2020.

1:19:55

We taped that right before...

1:19:59

before COVID shut everything down. And

1:20:02

you can listen to that now for free in all podcast

1:20:04

apps. And before we go, a

1:20:06

reminder that this episode is sponsored by

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BetterHelp.

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Help"] ["Better

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Help"] ["Better

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Help"] Boomer

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lives, monkey in the Fonda,

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cat angels everywhere.