0:00

Hey folks, it's your chance to discover

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what's now playing in Los Angeles. LA

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is home to the best food in the country,

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from taco trucks to Michelin stars. You'll find your

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new favorite dish in LA. Go

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take in some art or some music

0:14

or live comedy. I bet you didn't

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know Los Angeles has more museums and

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theaters than New York. For real. There

0:20

are world famous attractions just waiting for

0:22

you. From the Hollywood Walk of Fame

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to the Santa Monica Pier to my

0:26

home away from home, the Comedy Store.

0:29

Your favorite day in LA

0:31

is waiting for you. Start

0:33

here at discoverla.com. Alright,

0:45

let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers,

0:48

what the fuck buddies, what the fuck Knicks? What's

0:50

happening? I'm Mark Maron. This

0:53

is my podcast. Welcome to it. Nice

0:55

to have you. How's everything going with

0:58

you? Did you all

1:00

have a nice Super Bowl

1:02

Sunday? Did you cook the

1:05

things? Did you have the people over?

1:08

Did you make the dip? Did you

1:10

get shit-faced? Did anybody

1:12

throw up? Were there big

1:14

problems? I am recording

1:16

this as literally, I

1:18

guess, the Super Bowl

1:20

is underway as I record this. And

1:24

I will actually tell you, and this

1:26

is not coming from any position of

1:28

condescension or judgment, but

1:32

I've never watched a Super Bowl in

1:34

my life. And

1:36

again, I'm not being judgmental. If

1:39

that's the way you want to spend your Sunday

1:41

on that once a

1:43

year, you know, have fun. It seems

1:46

like people enjoy it. I know that

1:48

people get excited about the commercials. I think

1:51

that's once that started, I realized

1:53

I'm happy I'm out. I have

1:57

nothing against sports. Just know that. I

2:00

really don't. Some sports I don't

2:02

understand, some sports are more interesting than others, but I

2:05

don't know, maybe that's what I'm lacking. God knows

2:07

I've talked about that a lot. So listen, today

2:11

on the show, Ed Zwick is

2:13

here. He's the director

2:15

of Glory, the movie, great movie, watched

2:17

it again. Legends of the Fall, one of

2:19

my favorites actually.

2:22

The Last Samurai, fun movie. I

2:24

don't know if people call it fun, but it's a good movie. The

2:26

Siege, many other movies he directed. He's

2:29

the co-creator of the television series

2:31

30-Something. And once and

2:34

again, 30-Something. That was a big deal.

2:36

That almost single-handedly defined

2:40

boomer culture post a big chill on its

2:42

own. So he's got

2:44

this new memoir out. It's called Hits,

2:46

Flops, and Other Illusions, My 40-Something Years

2:49

in Hollywood. And it's kind of a

2:51

how-to. There's a lot of practical

2:54

advice for people who want to

2:56

be in motion pictures in this book,

2:58

but there's some good stories too. I enjoy talking

3:00

to the guy. Tour

3:02

dates, Portland, Maine. I'm at the State Theater on

3:04

Thursday, March 7th. Medford, Massachusetts

3:07

at the Chevalier Theater on

3:09

Friday, March 8th. Providence,

3:11

Rhode Island at the Strand Theater on Saturday,

3:13

March 9th. Perrytown, New York

3:15

at the Terrytown Music Hall on Sunday,

3:17

March 10th. Atlanta, Georgia, I'm at the

3:19

Buckhead Theater on Friday, March 22nd. Boise,

3:23

Idaho, just added I'm at the Egyptian

3:25

Theater on Saturday, March 23rd as part

3:27

of the Comedy Fort at Treefort Music

3:29

Fest 2024. That

3:32

would be this year. I guess I didn't have to say that part.

3:35

Madison, Wisconsin at the Barrymore Theater on

3:37

Wednesday, April 3rd. Milwaukee, Wisconsin at the

3:39

Turner Hall Ballroom on Thursday, April 4th.

3:42

Chicago at the Vic Theater on Friday, April 5th. Minneapolis

3:46

at the Pantages Theater on Saturday, April 6th.

3:49

Austin, Texas at the Paramount Theater on

3:51

Thursday, April 18th as part of the

3:53

Moon Tower Comedy Festival. Go

3:56

to wtfpod.com-tour for tickets.

4:00

It's coming up all the dates.

4:02

I was fortunate that I did the

4:04

two dates then I conveniently broke my

4:07

foot Well, I was actually the

4:10

day of the San Diego shows, but now I've you

4:12

know I don't really start the tour in earnest till

4:15

March 7th So hopefully

4:17

it'll be all better by then. Are

4:19

you totally stuck in the past when it

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offer code WTF to save 10% off

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5:28

Pow look out Just

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shit my pants just coffee.co

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up. That's a

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classic classic ad That

5:37

sometimes follows the

5:39

swerve, which I didn't intend to it.

5:42

It was almost reflex. Anyway, look you guys

5:45

sad news now we've

5:48

had many former guests

5:52

pass away and It

5:56

used to be before we before so many of

5:58

the episodes were Available, we

6:00

repost episodes if they were behind the paywall

6:02

out of respect for the dead.

6:06

But here's a guy who

6:10

died last week at

6:13

age 66, which

6:15

is not old, Mojo Nixon.

6:19

Mojo Nixon. Apparently

6:22

he had what they're calling a cardiac event

6:24

in his sleep while on an outlaw country

6:26

cruise docked in

6:28

San Juan, Mojo Nixon. His

6:32

real name was Neil McMillan, but he went by

6:34

Mojo Nixon because, as he said, they were

6:37

two words that shouldn't

6:39

go together. Now, he was

6:41

on a live WTF back

6:44

in 2011. Now

6:46

the thing about Mojo Nixon, Mojo

6:49

Nixon and Skid Roper did a few records.

6:51

That was his partner. And

6:55

I saw them once at the Paradise

6:57

Theater in Boston. And

7:00

I got such a fucking kick out of this guy's energy.

7:02

It was crazy. It

7:04

was sort of a blues, country,

7:07

novelty acting. He played guitar, and

7:09

I think Skid played a washboard.

7:12

At some point, you know, Mojo

7:14

was playing a water bottle. And

7:17

they did a bunch of silly songs,

7:19

certainly. Many of them were silly. Some

7:22

of them were silly. He did Elvis's Everywhere.

7:26

He did a song called Ain't Gonna Piss in

7:28

No Jar. One of my favorites, I'm

7:31

going to dig up Howlin' Wolf, Great,

7:34

Great Song, Dark, but,

7:36

you know, satire. Dirty.

7:38

He was crass. He

7:41

did The Amazing Bigfoot Diet.

7:44

There were so many Burn

7:46

Down the Malls, Jesus

7:48

at McDonald's. Okay, so

7:51

this guy was really a novelty

7:53

act in a way. But I liked the

7:55

way he played guitar. And I liked the way

7:57

he sang. And I liked his energy. And

8:00

I remember when we got him on, it was

8:03

a live WTF. I

8:05

was so fucking excited. I couldn't believe that I got

8:07

Mojo Nixon on my show. It

8:10

was live. It

8:12

was taped at the Steve Allen Theater in Los Angeles,

8:14

as I said, in October, 2011. He

8:18

was on the show with Jonah Ray, Steve

8:20

Mazin, Maronzo Vance,

8:23

Jim Earl, and Eddie

8:25

Peppaton. We released that as

8:27

episode 241. And

8:30

out of respect,

8:33

and in memoriam, I

8:36

want to play for you the segment I

8:38

did with Mojo Nixon, real

8:41

name Neil McMillan, on

8:43

this live WTF. So rest

8:46

in peace, Mojo. Rest

8:49

in peace, Neil. I

8:51

really gotta kick out of you, buddy. Here

8:54

we go. How you doing, man? I'm

8:57

good, Mark, how you? I'm fucking great.

8:59

I'm thrilled that you're here. I saw

9:01

you in Paradise in Boston, and you

9:03

were pounding on water jugs. I

9:05

was the Sonic Love Jugs, and we were

9:08

talking about psychedelic mushrooms. You weren't high, were

9:10

you? Oh yeah, I was. Back

9:12

when you was high. Yeah, I was really high.

9:15

And it was like speaking to me, all the

9:17

noise. So, and now, what

9:19

happened to Skid? Skid

9:21

Roper's currently serving time in Louisiana. We can't

9:23

talk about that right here. Nah,

9:26

I'm fucking lying. I'm

9:29

a musician, I'm full of shit. What's

9:31

more full of shit than a comedian? A

9:33

musician? A musician? Where

9:36

you been, man? Well, I've been down in San

9:38

Diego, I've been working on the radio. I'm on

9:40

Sirius Satellite Radio. In fact, I have a political

9:42

talk show, it's called, Liar

9:45

Cocksuckers. Yeah. Because

9:49

that's what politicians are. Absolutely. In fact,

9:51

you were talking about Bush earlier. I

9:53

started it because Bush invaded Iraq, he had nothing

9:55

to do with 9-11, and nobody would say

9:57

anything about it. So I got, I was. I

10:00

would go on like 27 minute rants, you

10:02

know, that had a lot of, and another

10:04

thing! I'd just be recording these things and

10:06

beat, and I'd see my face in the

10:08

mirror, I looked like Hitler giving one of

10:10

them dance. My hair's all

10:12

gone, I'm sweating, I'd have a

10:15

headache afterwards. And the

10:17

mustache it had didn't help at all. No, no,

10:19

no. So, how you feeling now?

10:21

What's it, what? You know, I'm pretty much done

10:23

with music. I've been

10:25

doing, I host this show Outlaw

10:27

Country every weekday afternoon. I've got

10:30

Steve Earle or Cynda Williams, you know,

10:32

Rednecks hopped up on goofballs. Sure, how

10:35

about the originals, George Jones, Murray Rosen,

10:37

and all the way back to Jimmy

10:39

Rogers, all three Hanks, and we

10:41

play all that music. Hank Three's a fucking trip,

10:43

man. Shelton is a motherfucker.

10:46

Yeah, you can put it that way. So

10:48

I do that, and I also

10:50

have a NASCAR talk show. I'm

10:53

from Danville, Virginia. I love NASCAR.

10:55

I have a NASCAR talk show

10:57

called, Manifold Destiny. And you

10:59

have to say

11:01

it like that every time. Just fucking

11:03

exhausting. I

11:05

did the show last night, I did the

11:07

show last night, and I know it's a

11:09

good show when somebody goes, hey, Manifold, they

11:12

start calling me, it's supposed to be Manifold,

11:14

Mojo Nixon's Manifold Destiny. They start calling me,

11:16

hey, Manifold man, tell me about that race.

11:18

Woo! No,

11:21

that's sort of like, it's weird because most of

11:23

us, sort of a northern-minded

11:25

liberal Fox think that NASCAR is

11:27

just for morons. No, no, no,

11:29

no, no, no, no. All

11:31

sports is stupid. NASCAR, right,

11:34

you're chasing a ball, right? All sports

11:36

is stupid. NASCAR is just our stupid

11:38

sport. Here's the thing,

11:41

NASCAR starts with guys running moonshine. Running

11:43

moonshine, they got these hopped up cars

11:45

to get away from the revenuers. Some

11:48

genius goes, why don't we put those

11:50

cars in a circle, we'll sell beer

11:52

and fried chicken, and maybe we'll have

11:54

a bluegrass band and we'll start butt

11:56

dancing. Yeah. And then all through the

11:58

hills of Southern Virginia and North Carolina, you know, You can hear that. Whoo!

12:02

Scaring the living shit out of you, Yankee. Yeah.

12:06

So that's really how it started. I

12:09

did. Yes.

12:16

But where'd you grow up? I grew up in

12:19

Danville, Virginia, which is right on just north of

12:21

Chapel Hill. Grew up in a small town. You

12:24

know, I went to college in Ohio. I didn't know

12:26

I was a hillbilly. Yeah. I

12:28

raised my hand in class and said,

12:30

sir, that's the epitome. When's

12:35

anybody going to say epitome in Danville,

12:37

Virginia? I could read. Do

12:41

you really come from hill people? No.

12:44

You know, my parents are from small towns in

12:46

North Carolina, and they were desperate, you know, to

12:48

be middle class. Yeah. Because they grew

12:50

up during the Depression, and they were dirt poor. Yeah. But

12:53

they were hillbillies. They didn't have chickens in New York,

12:55

but their parents did. Yeah. So

12:58

you grew up with like that whole diet? Yeah.

13:01

Oh, yeah. And you know, all

13:03

I did, my mother used to have

13:05

a can, a coffee can full

13:08

of bacon grease back behind the stove. Yeah.

13:10

Oh, is she just reaching there? Oh, she's

13:12

like, get the good stuff. That's

13:15

why I'm in the shape I'm

13:17

in today. I

13:20

ain't going to be going jogging. You

13:23

hurt your hand walking. I

13:25

hurt my hand. Yeah. I

13:27

was so fat and so old, I ran my hand into

13:29

a door jam and it swelled up. It looked like a

13:32

tick was on there. It was like,

13:34

this is all a tick. A lot of ticks around

13:36

here. I

13:41

need some water. I can't, my mouth doesn't got all

13:43

dry. I asked. Like I was going to drink

13:45

before the show. Yeah. I got to drive back

13:47

to San Diego. Yeah. Look, I can drunk

13:50

drive, but 110 miles is my limit. Yeah. Yeah.

13:53

I'm getting old. I'm getting old. I'm getting

13:55

old. I'm getting older. Yeah.

13:58

You got to slow down. I swear

14:00

we used to play like club lingerie, we'd play

14:02

club lingerie, we drank through the whole show, we

14:05

drank on the way home, then I'd snort a

14:07

big line of speed off the back of my

14:09

hand, make it through

14:11

Camp Pendleton. Yeah! Back to San Diego!

14:15

My wife say, I had to show them, oh good

14:17

baby, shut up, bye! Speed,

14:21

that was a good one, huh? Oh yeah, somebody

14:23

gave me an Adderall. Yeah, oh. They

14:25

gave me seven. You really need Adderall. They

14:27

gave me seven Adderall. I'd

14:30

been awake for two days, so I took one, well

14:32

that was good. Yeah. So I took

14:34

two more. Pretty soon, within a half hour, I was taking

14:36

all seven. That was on Sunday

14:38

morning, I didn't go to sleep till Wednesday

14:40

night. And I

14:42

just want to say, I might have touched

14:44

myself more than a hundred times. That's why

14:46

I got these short pants on, just you

14:49

know. Easy access, huh?

14:51

Well, here's the legs off, taking them

14:53

off a little bit. They

14:55

were full pants before you started taking the drugs.

14:58

Sometimes when you're that jacked up, it's really...

15:00

Is it too much information? No, fuck no

15:02

man. I one time took mezcalin, and

15:05

I didn't think it was going to hit, so I

15:07

waited four hours, I left the party, I got home and it hit,

15:09

and I didn't know what else to do but jerk off. And

15:12

I sat there and jerked off like three or

15:14

four times, and every time I came, it was

15:16

like Aztec pinball machine. It

15:19

was like, I was on a different planet, and I

15:21

thought everything was great. But as soon as I got

15:24

done with that, I was like, should I go to

15:26

the emergency room? That

15:30

was the half and half drug experience. I

15:33

was once on a bunch of speed, it

15:35

got really wasted, and then I was done cleaning

15:37

my apartment, and I was drunk enough to go

15:40

to my neighbor's apartment and ask if I can

15:42

clean theirs. Yeah, I can't do this. It's a

15:44

very spiritual matter. Just

15:46

let me clean up your back. I'm

15:49

not weird, man, just high. You

15:52

see me in the hall, man, it's okay, right? I'm

15:55

not the only one. Oh, it's common.

16:00

When you call the music you play

16:02

country or psychobilly? Well, you know, some

16:04

people call it psychobilly. You

16:06

know, I always thought what I did was

16:08

get a little hillbilly, you know, little rockabilly

16:10

thing going, then I start ranting and raving

16:12

over. I tried to be David Bowie. That

16:15

didn't work out. Did you, were you in band? Oh,

16:17

I was in band and I tried to be Mick

16:19

Jagger and that didn't work out. I just do what

16:21

I do best, which, you know, I'd sit down and

16:24

I'd get a little hillbilly boogie woogie going, then I'd

16:26

start telling the story. Well, actually I started lying. Yeah,

16:28

yeah, yeah. Extimperaneous pontification

16:30

is what I call it. You got some

16:33

fucking great songs, man. We're the hits, Elvis

16:35

is Everywhere. Elvis is Everywhere was the biggest

16:37

hit and Debbie, Stuff and Martha's Muffin about

16:39

old Martha Quinn. Martha Quinn, yeah. She still

16:42

won't talk to me. Don

16:45

Henley Must Die. Now, did

16:47

something weird happen with Don Henley? Don Henley got

16:49

on stage in a place smaller than this and

16:51

sang Don Henley Must Die with us and

16:54

shut me the fuck up. You

16:57

know, I'm talking all shit, you know, and everything and

16:59

he gets up there and belts it out. For

17:02

once I shut up. Oh fuck, do

17:04

you guys still talk? Fuck Don Henley. Fuck.

17:09

The Eagles are nothing but the country monkeys of the

17:11

70s. Oh shit. Who's

17:18

your guys though? Who are your guys? I

17:21

like Elvis, I like Bruce. Yeah.

17:25

I like, you know, look, I'm a hate-filled psycho.

17:27

Yeah. A tiny bit of

17:29

me that believe Bruce is romantic with the big

17:31

R and I want to believe that rock and

17:33

roll can save my life. Yeah. Because

17:35

ain't nothing else. Politics ain't gonna save my life.

17:37

Yeah. Pussy ain't gonna save my life. No. Booze

17:40

and drugs. Apparently he's really jacking off that or all ain't

17:42

gonna save my life. No, but it'll get

17:44

you through. Yeah, yeah, yeah, a rough spot. Yeah.

17:50

But rock and roll will save your life. Rock

17:52

and roll, and I'm a believer in rock and

17:54

roll. I'm a believer in the power of music.

17:56

I moved to England in 19. 1979

18:00

my plan was to join this join the clash.

18:03

Yeah, I lived in a squat in Brixton. I

18:05

you know and Did

18:07

they know you were there now later though later? I

18:09

met Joe strummer through the pugs. He goes. Oh,

18:11

yeah He said mate. You weren't the only one Yeah,

18:15

so I've you know and my parents wanted me

18:17

to like to be a lawyer Yeah, cuz I

18:19

was full of guys bullshit art. Yeah, I want

18:21

to use my bullshit for good. Yeah In

18:25

fact, I wrote a song destroy all lawyers got a good line

18:28

in it They got their own bar

18:30

where they drink pints agreed. Let's stay in new

18:32

to them so they can't breathe You

18:36

want to do a couple zone sure all right, let's set up a

18:38

mic Mojo

18:51

Nixon I

18:59

was gonna do a song called I got

19:01

fired from my job today But

19:06

I thought of a better title Wall

19:09

Street can't suck my dick Wall

19:12

Street can't suck my dick lick

19:15

my long and hairy prick Wall

19:19

Street can't Leave

19:22

some help out there I

19:28

don't like banks. I

19:32

don't like brokers. I Don't

19:35

like the Federal Reserve I

19:39

don't like jokers Somebody

19:42

needs to bail me out

19:44

cuz I've been fucked over

19:46

royally Somebody needs

19:48

to bail me out Somebody

19:51

needs to give me some grease. You know, give

19:53

me a hand job or reach around a little

19:55

grease I mean you gonna fuck mojo in your

19:57

ass. God damn it, man. Let me tell you

20:00

something wall street can suck

20:02

my dick wall street can

20:04

suck my dick say wall

20:06

street can suck my dick

20:09

say it wall street

20:11

can suck my dick suck

20:29

it in the morning suck it

20:31

in the evening suck it at

20:33

supper time suck

20:35

it in the morning suck it

20:38

in the evening suck it at

20:40

supper time now

20:45

you might think well mojo's just stalling because he's

20:48

making this shit up as he goes along I'm

20:58

all for occupying wall street I'm

21:01

all for sticking it to the

21:03

man but I'm not sure that

21:06

camping is going to scare millionaires

21:08

and billionaires a bunch

21:10

of dudes high on mushrooms camping beating on

21:13

drums may not get it done you know

21:15

what we need to do we need to

21:17

get all them wall street bankers and get

21:20

them lined up in a big ass line

21:22

so they can wall street can suck my

21:24

dick wall street can

21:26

lick my dick wall

21:29

street can suck my

21:31

dick wall street can suck

21:34

my dick wall street

21:39

can suck my dick wall

21:42

street can suck my dick oh

21:46

yeah Oh

22:00

Listen to some Mojo Nixon and Skidroper,

22:02

if you so desire, it's not everybody's

22:05

thing. I

22:07

enjoyed that guy. Sad

22:09

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BetterHelp, help.com/WTF. So

23:22

look, Ed Zwick. Now I

23:25

got to be honest with you, I knew he had

23:27

the book out and he got pitched to me, and

23:29

I don't know that I knew all the movies that

23:31

he directed, and it was quite amazing

23:34

to watch Glory again. What

23:37

a fucking movie, man. So he

23:40

wrote this book, Hits, Flops, and Other Illusions, My

23:43

40-Somethin' Years in Hollywood, comes

23:46

out tomorrow, and here is Ed

23:48

and myself having a conversation.

23:53

Thanks for watching. Ed,

24:02

I'm Mark. Hey, Mark. Nice to

24:04

meet you. Right

24:06

away, I've had other directors

24:09

in here. Not many of you

24:11

guys are kind of hard to get because when you do

24:13

work, it's for months on end. And

24:17

right out of the gate, you seem like a human person, pleasant

24:19

guy. I like to think of myself in those

24:22

terms. You exude some warmth. There's not a lot

24:24

of swagger that I'm sensing. There's

24:26

not a lot of... You have

24:28

nothing to prove to me. And

24:31

that's pleasant because I never know.

24:34

And your book is very good. And

24:36

I'm not just blowing smoke up your ass because I

24:38

don't always read memoirs because

24:41

I'd rather talk and have it unfold. If I

24:43

read too much of a memoir, then I'm like,

24:45

well, in the book. But

24:48

I was reading parts of it and I would have

24:50

finished it had I not had to watch Glory again.

24:53

All right. So that's a good reason. Right?

24:58

Because the chapter, I'm reading the chapter, I'm like, oh shit,

25:00

I didn't know. Oh my God, really? And then you got

25:02

to watch it again. And I

25:04

imagine that's going to happen with most of the movies. Well,

25:06

I said I'm hoping. I mean, I haven't watched...

25:09

I've had

25:11

some shame about it, but not for any real reason, just

25:13

because I don't know a lot of people that speak as

25:15

highly of it as I do. I find

25:17

Legends of the Fall to be...

25:19

It's like a guilty pleasure of mine. I'll watch it

25:22

whenever it's on and I'll go out of my way to

25:24

watch it every couple of years, because I love it. I

25:27

don't talk to a lot of hipsters or guys

25:29

my age, how about that Legends of the Fall?

25:33

But it's a big movie. It was

25:35

a big movie. Yeah. Right? Yeah.

25:38

It has a place in my heart too. Yeah. Yeah.

25:41

I mean, you made it. Yeah. Yeah.

25:44

Yeah. But the thing I like about the book is

25:46

also that you're clearly writing

25:48

it in relation to how you were

25:50

mentored. There is a mentoring element to

25:52

this book. Absolutely. That's the

25:54

intention. Yeah. And so you

25:56

weave the memoir part of it is good because

25:59

you don't... You're not playing a

26:02

victim in any way. You're not looking at

26:04

your past as traumatic necessarily in

26:06

a way that that's what the book is

26:09

about. But you fold in the stuff about

26:11

your dad and about your mom and about

26:13

stuff, but it's not the

26:15

thrust of it. It's

26:17

a very well-balanced

26:19

memoir between work,

26:21

how you got to where you are, and also

26:23

reflecting on your family. Well, that's sort

26:25

of the story of what it is to try to

26:27

be an artist now, is to

26:30

somehow reconcile those two

26:32

demands. And they're often

26:34

in opposition. Which two exactly? Work

26:38

and family. Sure. Right.

26:40

Well, I mean, it doesn't seem like anybody

26:42

who gets a bit of

26:44

momentum really does that balance

26:47

quite right. Exactly right. Exactly.

26:50

There's a couple points in the book where you're like, I

26:52

know I got a baby. But I

26:54

got a... Yeah. Right?

26:57

Yep. But the kids turned out okay. They're both

27:00

okay, actually. They're kind of great. Oh,

27:02

yeah? Yeah. Well,

27:04

that's good. It's funny. Sometimes they'll

27:06

manage. If you love them, even if you don't

27:08

have the right amount of time with them, they'll

27:10

manage. They'll be all right. Yeah. I

27:12

mean, I do credit my wife a little bit with having really

27:15

set a certain course. And it

27:18

became pretty clear that if we really wanted to have a

27:20

marriage, that I was going to

27:23

be around whenever I could.

27:25

Yeah. And that sort of

27:27

became the rhythm. Yeah. But it was a

27:29

little bit like the man who goes to sea for six months and

27:31

then comes home and has to sort of

27:33

reorient and reintegrate. But

27:37

different than that, your

27:39

wife's not worrying that the ship will

27:41

be lost. Fair enough. In form of

27:43

a death, but perhaps a starlet of

27:45

some kind. A kind

27:47

of a death. Yeah, sure. Well, I mean,

27:50

that's the other thing that I've been sort of

27:52

realizing lately. Because every time I

27:54

read a book like this and during awards seasons,

27:57

no matter how many things I've accomplished in my life,

27:59

I really... I'm not really in show business.

28:01

I mean I am but not to the

28:03

level that you're operating and The

28:07

way you characterize movie stars some of them. Mm-hmm

28:10

And I've talked to a lot of them and I

28:12

know a few now kind of but I'm not too close.

28:14

You don't get too close But

28:17

not great They're

28:19

there. They're you seem to Compartmentalize

28:21

it by saying well, they are of a

28:23

kind. It's a rare breed and there are

28:25

certain things you're gonna have to tolerate Yeah,

28:29

but you you know you you give something to

28:31

get something I mean, it's a it's transactional in

28:34

that regard, you know, I have I have something

28:36

that I want to accomplish Yeah And

28:39

what do I do in order to

28:41

accomplish it and part of that has

28:43

to do with assuming different roles? Yeah

28:45

and some of it is intimacy and

28:47

some of it is authority and some of it is Manipulation

28:49

and right some of it is genuine

28:51

fellow feeling and it really

28:53

shimmers Yeah from one person to the next and sometimes

28:56

even from one moment to the next Now

28:59

where did you you grew up where? Winnetka,

29:02

Illinois, how far is that from Chicago about

29:04

12 miles north?

29:06

So Chicago? Yeah, definitely Chicago all about Chicago about

29:09

the music scene all about the theater scene there

29:11

and all of that So when you're growing up,

29:13

you know, when were you born? Wait, I think

29:15

you're like 10 years old to me. How was

29:17

he too? Yeah, okay. Yeah, I'm 63. So you're

29:20

you know kind of mid

29:22

to late boomer. Yeah, right

29:24

Yeah, so you're coming up

29:26

in primetime You're

29:28

catching the tail end of the 60s. Yeah, I

29:30

mean, you know, I was in Chicago during the

29:34

riots downtown I saw I sat 68

29:36

68 16

29:39

over. Oh, so you were in it sat in

29:41

the Chicago sat in the trial. Yeah courtroom for

29:43

the Chicago 7 trial you did Yeah, I got

29:45

yes waited outside to do it. Yeah, and what?

29:47

Yeah, how'd you get into there? I had

29:50

this amazing Teacher actually,

29:52

it was a kind of revisionist

29:54

historian You

29:57

know sort of brought us wanted

30:00

this group of absolutely,

30:04

totally ignorant and live

30:07

teenagers and said, I'm going to show you

30:09

the world. And he took

30:11

us downtown and he, you

30:13

know, it was, it began, I

30:15

met him as our homeroom advisor in about

30:17

1960. African American guy.

30:19

Six African American guy. And the only

30:22

African American teacher in an all white

30:24

privileged school. Now you grew up

30:26

in a Jewish neighborhood? I did. Well, actually, no, it's

30:28

the neighborhood was actually a wasp neighborhood and

30:30

we were, you know, a Jewish family

30:32

in there with others, but it was not

30:35

that. Okay. So this guy kind

30:37

of changed, you need one

30:39

of those. He changed your life. Yeah. And

30:42

your mind. He challenged me and he challenged me in a lot

30:44

of ways. I mean, probably the most significant

30:46

ways we challenged me was to go out

30:48

for a wrestling team. Yeah. Which

30:51

I was utterly unprepared for. Yeah. I

30:53

was this, you know, well behaved, so overly

30:55

socialized kid. Yeah. And

30:58

he taught me to get down and to find some

31:00

thing in myself that I didn't know I necessarily

31:02

had. Oh, yeah. And what do

31:04

you think that was? Well, I remember, I mean, I lost

31:07

every match because I'd never done it before. And it's kind

31:09

of against these kids who were great. But

31:11

I remember it was toward the last tournament

31:13

and he took me aside. He said, listen, here's the

31:15

deal. These kids here,

31:18

they're not afraid of hurting you and

31:20

you're afraid of hurting them. Yeah.

31:23

And I sort of let go in that last

31:25

match. We drew. And that

31:27

was kind of a rocky moment. Yeah.

31:30

Yeah. But a victory. Oh,

31:33

definitely a victory. Over myself. Yeah. You learned

31:35

to not be so

31:39

innately codependent in

31:42

worrying about other people's feelings. Yeah.

31:44

And that there's a relevance to

31:46

that, to going into this business.

31:48

But also healthy competition.

31:52

Yeah. But when you were younger,

31:54

I mean, you know, you talk about your

31:56

dad who's a familiar character to me, the

31:58

sort of narcissistic. Jewish ne'er do

32:00

well. I have one of those as a father,

32:03

you know, not criminal My dad

32:05

was not criminal, but certainly selfish. Yeah, but

32:07

it sounds like your dad, you know teeter

32:09

it on the edge of criminality I

32:12

I mean when he died Yeah,

32:14

we found a couple of bank

32:17

boxes and security sort of placed here and

32:19

there with the hundreds in them Yeah, he

32:21

uh at the end of his life.

32:23

He had a video store sure, but he sold

32:25

porn under the table Oh, yeah, well, that's not

32:27

too bad. Well, no, but yeah didn't report it

32:29

the IRS either But was he making

32:31

hundreds of thousands of dollars? No, no, he was

32:34

getting by. Yeah Yeah, but by the time you

32:36

you know, he was able to live long enough

32:38

to see your success He was he

32:40

was but I guess the relationship was not at

32:42

a place where you could carry him No,

32:45

no, no, but nobody's one of those

32:47

moments. Yeah, no I um, oh God,

32:50

he went bankrupt when I was in college Yeah,

32:52

and that was you know, you know an issue

32:55

and and then later when I went abroad. Um,

32:57

I uh, He

32:59

needed a car and I loaned him my

33:01

car. Yeah came back from from

33:04

France. I found out he'd sold it But

33:07

at the end of toward the end of I

33:10

did loan him about $15,000.

33:13

Yeah with which he began this video store

33:15

Okay, and then ran out the string for

33:17

15 more years till the end

33:19

of his life. So it carried him carried him

33:21

Did all right. Yeah, he did good. You have

33:23

to give him any more money. No Wow. Yeah,

33:25

that's pretty good And what

33:27

about your mom in all this? She

33:30

was that mom that you want

33:32

were they together? They were together until about

33:34

the end of high school Okay. All right,

33:37

but she was that person who when I

33:40

Evidenced any interest in anything I would

33:43

then find a book on my dresser

33:45

the next day. Oh, yeah. She was

33:47

invested You know, she

33:49

had been the assistant director to

33:51

a high school play She'd

33:54

gone to dropped out of college to

33:56

marry the Mary my father and had

33:58

three kids within a married

34:00

and charismatic lunatic. Exactly right. But

34:03

um no I even I talk about this

34:06

in the book which is that when I was about though

34:08

14 or 15 I somehow convinced

34:11

her to take me to

34:13

the battlefields of the Civil War

34:15

and tromp up and down because

34:17

I was interested in those histories.

34:20

What, to a reenactment? Well no not

34:22

even reenactments. Just to like a Vicksburg

34:24

and stuff? Yeah Gettysburg and I just

34:26

have this image of her with

34:28

this you know ridiculously avid 14 or

34:31

15 year old narrating the stories of these

34:33

battles as she's just tromping

34:35

in you know 90 degree heat down

34:38

the hills. Yeah. That's a

34:40

pretty epitomizing you know

34:42

sort of description of who she was. Sure

34:44

and that it became a through line to

34:47

you know to the your first big movie.

34:49

Well and it had all these other kind

34:51

of weird coincidences because when I went to

34:53

college I would walk through the public

34:56

garden of in Boston and

34:59

I saw this monument and you I know that

35:01

monument. Of course and you walk past it the

35:03

way you do every monument without looking at it.

35:05

Yeah. They sort of this dead history. Yeah. And

35:07

the first thing you notice is this you know

35:10

this guy and this horse and you pay no

35:12

attention and it is until you look closer that

35:14

you then see that the men marching with him

35:16

are African-American. Yes. So yeah it

35:18

all came together in these odd ways.

35:21

Robert Lowell wrote a poem about that

35:23

monument that became about the about prayer

35:25

for the Union dead. Yes. Right.

35:27

Yep. Did that one get you? You

35:30

bet. So but early on though

35:32

you you know outside of

35:34

an interest in the Civil War were you uh what were

35:36

you doing

35:38

in terms of show not show business. No I

35:41

was a theater kid. You were a theater. I

35:43

was that theater kid in high school doing all

35:45

the musicals. Your song and dance man. Absolutely. I

35:48

could show you a little bit. Yeah. We

35:50

all were but um it

35:53

was uh wasn't actually I mean that had was

35:56

going to be my course. I went

35:58

to a theater and I went abroad as ostensibly

36:00

to observe experimental theater

36:02

companies. I had a fellowship and I was gonna,

36:04

I watched Peter Brook at the Bouff du Nord

36:07

and I watched George Australia. And I did that

36:09

for at least three weeks. I was supposed to

36:11

do it for a year. But

36:13

Paris turns out to be the best place to

36:15

watch movies in the world. There

36:17

was the cinema tech. The

36:20

dollar was really strong. So for a dollar. Was it

36:22

early 70s now? Yeah, or

36:24

mid. And for a dollar you

36:27

could go to the cinema tech and see three movies.

36:29

Six and eight and 10. And it was,

36:32

you know, it was Fosbinder one night and it

36:34

was John Ford the next. There

36:36

were these little revival houses. And then I got

36:38

very, very lucky because I ended

36:41

up with a gig working as an assistant to

36:43

a director in France because I spoke

36:45

a little bit of French and was

36:47

able to see what that was really

36:50

all about. And I had been, I think

36:53

inhibited about that. I directed a lot

36:55

of plays, but I didn't know

36:57

anything about exposure. And I hadn't, you know, I wasn't

36:59

that kid. That was Setworks. I wasn't that kid with

37:01

a bollocks either. Sure. And then

37:04

I saw- So you had no sense of movies.

37:06

No, and I mean, I loved them. Adored them,

37:09

but didn't, felt they were somehow, you

37:11

know, beyond me. But you did know

37:13

that, you know, there is, from theater

37:15

to film, there's a connection obviously. Yeah,

37:19

but- Construction. Yeah, but

37:21

the funny thing is there was this kind of weird hierarchy

37:25

about those who considered

37:27

themselves filmmakers and

37:30

I somehow hadn't learned that thing. Well,

37:33

you were young. Yeah, but there I was

37:35

on the set and I saw this director,

37:37

he was also a writer, having

37:39

surrounded himself with really gifted people

37:42

who could execute what he had

37:44

in mind. And as

37:48

long as he had a vision, as long as he could articulate-

37:50

You could say the guy's name. Oh no, it was Woody Allen.

37:52

Yeah. No. And you

37:54

were working on Love and Death. Yeah, Love and Death.

37:56

And it was one of those- informative

38:00

moments because he was

38:02

very generous. What if it was

38:04

a fluke into this? Absolute fluke.

38:06

Because that's like something you like there are

38:08

certain stories that people have where

38:11

it seemed like you kept sort of a You

38:14

know, your trajectory is guided by these moments.

38:16

Yeah. Yeah, you know, it's fortunate But

38:18

I mean still it's not like you were blessed

38:21

but it could have gone either way Yeah, but

38:23

you know when you got the opportunity it just

38:25

was fortuitous Well, the thing is it

38:27

was an opportunity that was actually about an internal

38:30

Understanding of what the process was it wasn't like

38:32

an opportunity that led to led led to a

38:34

job Sure, but what it did and particularly when

38:36

he when I saw a very early draft of

38:39

Annie Hall Yeah, which at that time was going

38:41

to show it to you. Well, I got to

38:43

know him Oh, so he got he sort of

38:45

like this kid wants to do this. Yeah,

38:48

and and I was the only one there who

38:50

spoke English He was lonely. Okay Nobody

38:52

else to talk to ya, but but also

38:55

I had observed His

38:58

relationship with Diane Keaton. Yeah, and she

39:00

was lovely too But they

39:02

were no longer together and I knew that

39:05

and then I see this script

39:07

that's describing a relationship That

39:10

has been important and ended And

39:13

I you know, I'm looking at that and

39:15

I'm looking at them Yeah, and I realized

39:17

that here's somebody taking the you know The

39:20

the dross of of life and turning spinning

39:22

it into the gold of art Right

39:25

and that became very important to me later on.

39:27

I think when we did 30 something sure So

39:30

you're able to to make

39:32

that leap for yourself Yeah But what I did

39:34

having had this experience rather than go back to

39:36

New York and I've been offered a job in

39:38

theater I went no I'm gonna go

39:40

to California and I'm gonna reinvent myself the way

39:43

that everybody always has through history and I came

39:45

here not knowing anybody What year was that? 75

39:49

or 6 Wow, what and you're like 22. Yeah 23. Yeah.

39:51

Yeah That's

39:54

that's a ballsy move can get pretty lonely

39:56

out here. Yeah, I bleak. Yeah, and I

39:58

applied and I got accepted to the

40:01

American Film Institute, which at that time

40:03

was a lot easier to get into.

40:05

Then like UCLA or something? Yeah.

40:08

What's the big one? USC. Yeah. So

40:10

the American Film Institute, but not a

40:12

slouchy... Oh no, it was fantastic.

40:15

In fact, it was run by these

40:17

really gifted people and it was a

40:19

small conservatory where you arrive

40:21

there on day two you're shooting.

40:23

Yeah, you talk about in the book

40:25

it was kind

40:29

of harrowing. You

40:31

took some hits, you're living in a crappy

40:33

apartment, and you're doing the

40:35

LA thing. Yeah, and I was unaccustomed to being

40:37

that sort of slow kid in the class. Yeah.

40:40

And I was the least talented among all of

40:42

them. Do you think that was it or you just didn't

40:45

know how to manifest your talent? I

40:47

think both. Yeah, I don't think I...

40:50

I hadn't really... the penny hadn't dropped.

40:52

I didn't really understand what

40:55

this technology... what the

40:57

nomenclature was. Yeah. I was, you

40:59

know, still very green

41:01

and very inhibited about

41:04

myself. I was imitating other people.

41:07

I was... I was... felt

41:09

this critical voice on my shoulder. None of

41:11

it came from the inside

41:14

as it needs to. The

41:16

critical voice on your shoulder

41:18

being who? You? No, you know, me certainly

41:22

my ambition, but you

41:25

know, Harvard University and...

41:28

You went there? Yeah, I did.

41:31

Underground? Undergrad. What did you major

41:33

in? Literature. Yeah. Yeah. And and

41:36

the idea was to do what?

41:41

I don't know. I guess I think

41:43

probably a certain moment and this pertains even to the

41:45

book. I think at a certain moment I wanted to

41:47

be George Orwell. I wanted to be an essayist

41:49

or I wanted to write... A righteous essayist? Yeah,

41:52

I... you know, and I wrote for some magazines.

41:54

I worked for the New Republic for a while

41:56

and I wrote for Rolling Stone. I thought that

41:58

was going to be a a court. Right. But

42:01

it wasn't. And

42:03

parental expectations?

42:06

That's a good one. No, when I

42:11

was graduating and my father had gone bankrupt,

42:15

because I was a middle-class Jewish

42:18

kid who felt I had to somehow cover

42:20

my ass, I applied to the law school.

42:22

Yeah. And I was accepted and

42:26

decided not to go. And on the day that

42:28

I decided not to go,

42:31

my father basically, you know, said that I

42:33

was ruining my life. And I said, well,

42:35

fine, because you've already ruined yours. And we

42:37

didn't speak for about two

42:39

more years. And I came

42:42

to LA. And, you know, as

42:44

I was here struggling, and I did struggle and

42:46

butchered off my girlfriend and read scripts and anything

42:48

I could, a lot

42:50

of these guys who had graduated with

42:52

me were taking jobs already. Yeah. White

42:55

shoe law firms in DC and clerking.

42:58

Merrick Garland was in my class. Yeah. You

43:00

know, watch that trajectory. Sure. He took a

43:02

hit though. He's doing he.

43:04

I think he's doing all right now. You in touch

43:06

with him? Yeah, actually.

43:08

Really? Yeah. How

43:10

you doing, Merrick? Well, you know,

43:13

there's certain Chinese firewalls about what

43:15

you can talk about and what

43:17

you can't. Oh, sure. Sure. Yeah.

43:19

Be careful what you text. Exactly.

43:21

Attorney General. But it is interesting,

43:23

I think, because the thrust of the book is

43:26

educational to some degree in terms of

43:29

pursuing a life in show business that a

43:32

lot of people started as script readers. Oh,

43:34

yeah. And it was it's just this

43:36

weird, horrible job. Yeah. But,

43:38

you know, what you do is it's like those

43:40

little signs when they say no smoking. There's a

43:43

cigarette in a red line through a circle saying

43:45

don't do this. Right. It's a lot

43:47

of learning by negative example. Right. Or

43:51

just becoming somehow fluent

43:54

in the different structures

43:56

and the expectations of

43:58

genre or. Oh, in terms

44:00

of reading. Yeah. And you

44:02

kind of. The form. Yes. And

44:05

so you read a lot of bad scripts. Yep. But

44:07

when does the opportunity start? It

44:11

was one of those things where I

44:14

thought it would never start. What

44:16

were you doing though? Were you thinking about

44:18

leaving? You

44:20

know, were you writing things? What

44:23

were you writing? Yeah, I mean, it's funny. Marshall

44:26

Herskovits and I had met in film school. He's

44:28

your production partner? Yeah. And has

44:31

been writing partner and all that and more. Best

44:33

friend probably forever. Yeah. And

44:36

we graduated and I

44:39

eventually got. From AFI. From AFI.

44:42

And I got, nobody wanted to see my student film. What

44:44

was it about? Oh, it was, gee, a

44:46

father-son story. Isn't that surprising? What happened? Did

44:49

you kill him? So

44:52

anyhow, we

44:55

started writing a few things together but I got

44:58

a job based on

45:01

the script to that student film. It got

45:03

to a producer of another television show that

45:05

was folding. Which one was that?

45:07

It was called James of Fifteen. I can't remember that

45:09

one. You do? Yeah, it wasn't on

45:11

that long. It's like after school special vibes to it. Exactly. He

45:14

was a guy named Richard Kramer, talented writer who

45:16

had been brought out from New York. He'd written

45:18

a short story in The New Yorker. Who was

45:21

the actor in that? I remember that kid. Kerwin,

45:23

something Kerwin? Lance Kerwin? Ryan Kerwin? Someone Kerwin, yeah.

45:26

In any case, he was good enough to

45:28

send my script to these producers of

45:30

another television show and they

45:32

liked it. And so they asked

45:35

me to come meet. I did. And,

45:38

you know. Were you 25? Even

45:41

younger, probably 24, 25. 25, yeah. And

45:45

I wrote something for them and they liked it and they invited

45:47

me to go on the show to be

45:49

on, in fact, a story editor of the

45:51

show. And days were

45:53

different. There was nobody, it wasn't a staff. There

45:56

was this lovely woman named Carol McKeon who was

45:58

the producer of writer and her

46:00

husband and me. So

46:03

that they were doing 22 episodes a year. Wow.

46:07

And I was literally deep into the

46:09

pool. I mean, I wrote day

46:11

and night. She rewrote every word I wrote.

46:13

In the writer's room? Nothing. Didn't exist.

46:15

Huh. 22 episodes. Think about

46:17

it. The three. Three of us.

46:19

And only two of us really writing. We

46:21

had writers, freelance writers come in whom we

46:23

would rewrite. And she would rewrite

46:25

every word I wrote. Yeah. But

46:29

it was an extraordinary kind of

46:32

discipline. Which I didn't have any

46:34

right before that point. Yeah. And I learned it in a

46:36

hurry. Wow. And you

46:38

wrote on that for how many seasons? Two. And

46:41

actually the second season they decided that they were

46:43

gonna go do their own thing. And they left.

46:45

And I was left to produce the show at

46:47

25 years old. So you're

46:49

making a lot of coin. All of

46:51

a sudden I went from zero to

46:53

60 in about 3.6 seconds. Yeah. And

46:56

so that changes everything. Now you're a TV writer.

46:58

I'm a TV writer and my work is terrible.

47:01

Why do you think that? Because again, I

47:03

was just imitating. I was doing what they had done.

47:06

You were churning out what needed to be done. You

47:08

were doing the job, right? I was doing the job

47:10

but I would look at my work when it was

47:12

done. And I was ashamed. It was just not

47:15

to the level that I had hoped my

47:17

work would ever be. Right. Well that's an

47:19

artistic intuition or judgment but you were servicing

47:21

the vehicle that you were hired to do.

47:24

Yeah. Yes. But I had had my head

47:26

turned by going to a film school where

47:28

they would talk about, you know, John

47:31

Ford and Fellini and that I thought I

47:33

was gonna come out of there. And by

47:35

the way, you have to remember

47:37

the moment. Yeah. This is the moment when

47:40

Coppola is doing Apocalypse Now. This

47:42

is the moment. It's after all those guys broke through.

47:45

Middle way through. And so that's what I'm seeing. Yes.

47:47

When I'm going to the movies at night

47:49

and instead I'm writing stuff that I

47:52

wouldn't watch. Yeah. You're writing the, you know,

47:54

you are a sellout.

47:57

Yeah. Already at 25. Beating

48:00

yourself up, watching Apocalypse Now

48:03

and being there. All of it. I

48:06

mean, you look at what the movies were in 1979, for instance.

48:11

Oh my God. It's all those

48:13

guys really coming into themselves. Some of them

48:15

actually passed their creative genius,

48:17

oddly. But yeah,

48:19

all the guys from the early 70s

48:22

really delivering the goods. And

48:24

there you were, writing TV. Exactly.

48:27

But okay, so that's a lot of pressure. You're

48:30

writing a show called Family. And

48:32

this is what you're up against. This is your dream,

48:34

that list. And you're sitting there in

48:36

an office, now running the show. Well and then the

48:38

show ends. Was it a popular

48:40

show? It was critically popular.

48:43

What network? ABC. Okay.

48:46

But, you know, what

48:48

happens is that I

48:50

have made a classic mistake, which

48:52

is I took some of the money and I bought a

48:54

little house. And then

48:56

I couldn't afford to pay for the mortgage.

48:59

And so I had to maybe get another job of that

49:01

sort and try to find a way to... You bought in!

49:04

I did, I absolutely... Did you have a kid already?

49:06

No, not yet. Did you have a wife? Not yet.

49:09

You bought a house without either of those? Absolutely.

49:12

And then you were stuck. And then I'm stuck. And

49:15

so I'm scrambling. And

49:18

Marshall is scrambling. We're

49:21

getting work, but he's in the same predicament. He's writing

49:23

for seven brides for seven

49:25

brothers. He's writing for chips. And

49:28

we're both slowly dying. You're

49:31

film directors! Exactly. And

49:33

so what do we do? We get together every

49:36

day and we just whine and moan and,

49:38

you know, contemplate our fate. And

49:40

then one

49:42

day I have

49:45

this terrible anxiety dream.

49:48

And the dream is about nuclear proliferation. And

49:51

Marshall and I are talking

49:54

and he says, well, that's a movie. And

49:56

I said, what the fuck are you talking about? And

49:59

he said, no. And

50:02

we start talking about how one could

50:04

do television that

50:06

wasn't television. In other words, let

50:08

me, I

50:10

was thinking of something like the Battle of El

50:12

Cheers, about docudrama.

50:14

Right. And could we tell

50:17

a story that somehow

50:19

was in the same

50:21

vernacular as watching something happen

50:23

on television and only seeing

50:25

what you would see while on television? And

50:29

we go in and we pitch this and

50:32

we happen to find a seam in the universe. We

50:34

go to NBC when

50:37

they are in the toilet. They

50:39

don't know what else to do. And the

50:41

guy who gives us, hires us to write

50:43

the script is then fired. And

50:46

then the next person to who is supposed to

50:48

improve it is leaving his job. And it slowly

50:50

works its way through the system until

50:53

we get a yes. But

50:56

it's never clear who has given us that yes. It's

50:58

weird because usually they would have scrapped you. So I

51:00

guess the guy at the top wasn't fired yet. Well

51:02

that was Brandon Tardikoff. And

51:04

the script gets to Brandon Tardikoff. And

51:07

he reads it and he says, well,

51:10

I have no idea what to do with

51:12

this, but I like this. And

51:14

all... What was the pitch? It was

51:16

just the pitch, what I just said to you.

51:18

You are watching... It's a little vague. Well, no.

51:21

Think of War of the Worlds. Okay. Think

51:23

of what that was like when you turn on

51:26

the radio and it was as if it was really

51:28

happening. That was about a

51:30

Martian invasion. This is about nuclear terrorism. And

51:34

they say yes. Brandon

51:37

is friends at that time with a guy named

51:39

Don Olmeyer. Sure. He was a sports guy. Yep.

51:42

He had helped sort of create NBC Sports with

51:44

Rune Artledge. And he knew about the technology. And

51:46

the technology was changing. It was about

51:49

remote cameras and it was about all sorts of

51:51

different approaches toward what news should look like. Anyway,

51:56

we get to make this thing. And a lot of

51:58

that was figured out in Munich. Absolutely.

52:01

Because of that terrorist attack. Precisely

52:03

right. So we

52:06

make this and they

52:09

look at it and they like it. What

52:11

was it called? It was called Special Bulletin. And

52:15

so we make it and

52:17

in the penultimate moment

52:19

when it's supposed to go on the air, the

52:22

news division of NBC looks

52:25

at it and says you can't air this.

52:28

People are going to be scared. They're going to be

52:30

terrified. This is going to freak out. And none of

52:32

that but it's going to in some sense work

52:36

against our prestige

52:38

or our credibility of the news

52:40

division. And they want him to cancel it.

52:43

And they want not to air it. And

52:46

under those sort of

52:48

the dictum of rather

52:51

to better ask for an apology

52:54

than to ask for permission, we

52:56

send it to

52:59

Howard Rosenberg and to John O'Connor.

53:01

These guys were the critics of TV at the time.

53:04

And they love it. And they go to

53:06

bat for it. And so by the time

53:08

it goes on the air, it's a sort of

53:10

cause-celeb among the business. And

53:14

it then wins every award. It won. We

53:16

won. It was a one-off? It

53:18

was a one-off. We won all

53:21

the Emmys for writing and directing. We won

53:23

the DGA and the WGA and the Peabody

53:26

and all of a sudden the world changed. For

53:28

you. For me and Marshall too. But I

53:31

get a call, you know, Sidney Pollock who's

53:33

just taken over helping advise them at TriStar.

53:36

Would I like to make movies? Sidney

53:39

Pollock's the best. He was the best. He

53:41

was very important to me. Solid guy. Really

53:46

solid guy. An anxious guy, you know, a

53:49

complex guy. Seems like it. But

53:51

really, you know, someone

53:54

who was a real believer. He'd been in part

53:56

of the actor's studio. Sure. He'd

53:58

come up through television the same way, I think. He

54:00

had some sympathy for where my trajectory

54:02

had been. Great actor, great director? Great

54:04

both, yeah. Yeah. So, okay,

54:07

so you meet him. He pulls me in. He

54:09

pulls me in. Both of you?

54:11

Archerl too? Yeah, yeah. I

54:13

mean, yes, in fact, we both write a script

54:15

together that he just trashes. And

54:17

Sidney does. Sidney does. I've never been

54:19

torn apart more

54:21

ferociously because we were...

54:25

What was the criticism? Well,

54:28

I remember something he said to me that became

54:31

a kind of a watchword. He

54:33

said, I don't think it started

54:35

with schmuck, but it could have been. Don't

54:37

you realize that the... I

54:39

was defending the plot and saying it was so cool.

54:42

And I remember him saying, plot

54:44

is the meat that the burglars

54:47

throw to the dogs when

54:49

they climb over the wall to get the jewels,

54:51

which are the characters. Nice.

54:53

Yeah, you have a little list in here. You do a

54:55

lot of lists throughout the book about the things that you

54:57

learned from Sidney. And

54:59

you guys were friends for a long time. What

55:02

did you ultimately end up making with him? Well,

55:04

I made this movie that was

55:06

based on David Mamet's Sexual

55:09

Perversity in Chicago. And it was called About

55:11

That Night. And that was

55:13

for that studio. For TriStar. For TriStar. And

55:15

then Glory was also for TriStar. And

55:19

then... So the Sexual Perversity in Chicago. The

55:21

thing that interests me about the process of

55:23

being a director of what you were heading

55:25

into is that it requires... I don't know

55:28

whether you

55:30

would frame it that way. It requires a certain patience

55:33

because shit does not work out. And

55:36

things take time. And

55:38

you seem to have a balance with

55:40

that stuff. But for someone like me,

55:42

who's probably undiagnosed to ADHD, insanity,

55:44

I would be screaming and yelling on

55:47

phones and losing my mind. But

55:49

it seems like the amount of patience required

55:52

to let things fall into place if and

55:54

when they're going to is unbearable. Yeah,

55:56

yeah. I mean, I wouldn't say

55:58

patience. I think sometimes... Sometimes it's

56:00

a lot about gaming something where you're not

56:02

doing one thing at a time. There

56:05

would be often two or three things like

56:08

horses that I've been trying to get to the

56:10

gate and then you're waiting to see how

56:12

the stars align. Literally the stars, sometimes the

56:15

movie stars, but if you think of a

56:17

slot machine and it has to be three

56:19

cherries, it has to be the money, it

56:22

has to be the studio and it has

56:24

to be the actor. Right. So if

56:26

you get a few things, a few plates in the air,

56:28

at least you're doing it. You're distracted. Precisely. And then

56:31

you get a call and they're like, you

56:33

know, Julia's ready. And you're on a plane.

56:36

Right. But then you drop the other thing. Well,

56:38

or you hope that they somehow are becalmed and

56:40

they're waiting for you. You're going to alternate when

56:42

you come back. So with

56:45

About Last Night, I mean, what had to fall in place

56:47

for that? Let's

56:50

see. It had been owned

56:52

by Jonathan Demme, these great

56:54

producers in Chicago, Stuart

56:56

Okun and Jason Brett. And then Jonathan

57:00

got distracted by something else or the studio didn't want to

57:02

make it at the time and it became a free ball.

57:06

And I read it and met with them. They wanted

57:08

me to do it. And

57:12

also I think the fact that when Rob Lowe

57:14

wanted to do it, who was a sort of

57:17

kid on the rise that gave it some

57:19

credibility and then I was able to make

57:21

it for very little money at the time.

57:25

And then it did exceedingly well. And

57:28

that puts you on the map. Definitely. But

57:31

then like, you know, when you talk about the

57:33

whole process of pulling

57:36

glory together, you

57:38

know, in terms of a pre-existing

57:41

script, what are you going to

57:43

do with that script? Yeah. You know, how

57:45

does that sort of, you know, where do you take that? How do

57:47

you get the support? I mean, it's a big, a big

57:50

tale. Yeah. I mean, I

57:53

don't know how to say it. I mean, the

57:55

analogy might be being

57:58

an architect and you draw plans. never

58:00

get to build the building. And you do that again

58:02

and again. I've often asked myself, I

58:04

would say that there are probably an equal number of

58:06

those things that I have created.

58:09

That actually happens to you with Shakespeare in Love. Yep. You

58:12

built a building. Yep. And then you

58:15

don't get to live in it. But the story with

58:17

Glory, though, and all the things that had to be

58:19

pulled together, and then, like, for me, one of the

58:21

most impactful

58:23

passages in the book was you

58:26

figuring out how to do a shot you

58:28

couldn't afford. Right. You got to figure out

58:30

of that fort. Yep. And where you

58:32

drew inspiration from, because you realized

58:35

the technique had been applied before by Kurosawa,

58:37

wasn't Kurosawa? Yeah. Yeah, I was Kurosawa. I

58:39

probably looked at Ron about 20 times,

58:41

because he didn't have enough money either.

58:43

Specifically for that fort scene? Specifically for

58:46

that attack. Yeah. Yeah. And

58:48

what he did, because he was a

58:50

genius, and he basically reinvented film vernacular

58:52

with Seven Samurai. He

58:55

filled the frame. He figured out how

58:57

to...that if you had

58:59

enough money for a certain number of big shots,

59:02

and if you were able to shoot them in one

59:04

day or two days, you could then

59:06

go and articulate it in a more micro way,

59:09

and when you would put those shots of

59:11

a smaller scale, intercut with those bigger shots

59:13

in our imaginations, we would see it all

59:16

as being big. Right. And

59:18

that's...it's just a riff on the trick that Eisenstein did.

59:21

I mean, it's just... It's just the

59:23

power of montage applied to a frame. That's

59:26

right. Yeah. But the

59:28

truth is, I don't think I could have done Glory had

59:30

I not done 40 hours of 30-something and

59:34

the TV before it, where you learn the

59:37

meat and potatoes. So in between, about last

59:39

night, and Glory, you did 30-something? Yeah. Yeah.

59:41

And that was your creation? With Marshall. Yeah.

59:44

You guys invented it. Yep.

59:46

So that was a big show. Yeah. It

59:49

was a big sort of like gabfest

59:52

of yuppie gabfest. Right?

59:55

Yeah. So like it became... It

59:58

changed the vernacular of television. It did. I mean,

1:00:00

I think the funny thing about that is that it was, you

1:00:03

know, a group of people who are related

1:00:05

in various ways who are basically just dealing

1:00:07

with each other. And at

1:00:09

the time, it was revolutionary because in television, everybody

1:00:11

else was a doctor or a lawyer or

1:00:14

a fireman or a policeman. And

1:00:16

also half of them were funny. Yes. They're

1:00:19

trying to be funny. No. And

1:00:21

the funny thing now is that's what all of television

1:00:23

is, where everyone, it's all

1:00:25

contriving different ways for these people to be

1:00:28

in relationship to each other without

1:00:30

that franchise. Right. Now,

1:00:32

was that coming off or predating The Big

1:00:35

Chill? Well, that's it. Larry had done The

1:00:37

Big Chill in movies. And John

1:00:39

Sales had done The Trial of the Suckawka Seven. And

1:00:42

so that existed. It just

1:00:44

hadn't existed in television. But

1:00:47

that was the generation. That was when they

1:00:49

were still called Yuppies. Now somehow they're just

1:00:51

boomers. Now it's a broader swath. Right. I

1:00:54

think Yuppie was pejorative and I think Boomer tends

1:00:56

to be a little bit more broad. It's

1:00:58

pejorative to the following generation.

1:01:00

Exactly. Okay, Boomer. Yeah,

1:01:02

yeah. Well, interesting.

1:01:05

So that was a

1:01:07

lesson in working

1:01:09

with actors, working in structure, working

1:01:11

with budgets that required attention in

1:01:14

terms of making something. How

1:01:17

to extend a dollar. Yeah.

1:01:20

How to literally spend the smart money rather than

1:01:22

stupid money. But then all that stuff in the

1:01:24

story about glory, about dealing with stars,

1:01:27

dealing with Roderick, Matthew

1:01:29

Roderick, dealing with his mother. That

1:01:32

the patience of that, because

1:01:34

I have found lately that

1:01:37

my sense, and I think you have it, you

1:01:39

love movie stars. Yeah,

1:01:42

I guess that's true. And

1:01:45

learning to work with them obviously is part of your

1:01:48

job. But for me, it's not part

1:01:50

of my job and I am always amazed at a

1:01:52

certain amount of natural talent that they

1:01:55

have, but also just their presence is

1:01:57

somewhat miraculous.

1:02:00

It is real. I know. Yeah,

1:02:03

that's what I mean. Yeah. But

1:02:05

also, I think that they are absolutely every

1:02:07

bit as smart as we are. They just

1:02:10

don't necessarily have the same language. And

1:02:12

I think we mistake that. As we are

1:02:14

regular people? Well, we

1:02:17

who approach it from a more

1:02:19

intellectual way, rather than that very

1:02:21

visceral, very intuitive way. They have

1:02:23

stomach brains. They know what they

1:02:25

can do and can't do. You diminish

1:02:27

them at your own expense, at your own

1:02:30

peril, in terms of what they can

1:02:32

bring because they are... Their

1:02:34

job. Yes. Yes.

1:02:37

Exactly. Yeah, it's interesting. I

1:02:41

was trying to over-determine things. Yeah. And

1:02:44

that I think was beginning to...often limiting

1:02:46

what I could then get from someone

1:02:48

who's a genuine artist. Well, I mean...

1:02:50

And I'm right. And this is a challenging movie. I

1:02:52

don't want to linger on too long. You have a lot of movies,

1:02:54

but we don't have to go through everything. With

1:02:57

Glory, I mean, there's a lot in the

1:02:59

balance there. There's representation of

1:03:01

African Americans. There's

1:03:04

the white savior problem. There's

1:03:07

just the notion that now, whether or not you could

1:03:09

even direct that movie. But

1:03:12

ultimately, I think it's an honest and

1:03:14

balanced movie. I think so. In

1:03:17

relation to the story and to race.

1:03:20

I think, I mean, it has the

1:03:22

advantage of being true and

1:03:24

documented. Yes. So,

1:03:27

to have denied either part of

1:03:29

the movie would have

1:03:31

been bolderizing the history. But

1:03:34

you also...you had to learn on

1:03:36

set about the

1:03:38

community of African Americans that evolved

1:03:41

during the shooting. Absolutely. And then

1:03:43

you also had to make choices

1:03:45

about this kind of imposed

1:03:47

righteousness of Matthew's

1:03:49

mom in terms of

1:03:51

abolitionists and representing them in two

1:03:56

leadest away would have undermined the

1:03:58

effort. And in fact, it was... I

1:04:00

mean, I think that there

1:04:02

was something that I was seeing that was

1:04:05

undeniable. It was just happening in front

1:04:07

of me that Denzel and

1:04:09

Morgan and Jimmy and Andre, that they were

1:04:12

in a kind of rapture. They

1:04:14

were, they heard something. They were...

1:04:17

Their history. It was their history. And

1:04:20

in fact, I initially may

1:04:22

have been timid or hesitant to

1:04:26

take advantage of that until I thought about

1:04:28

my own grandfather and how easily it would

1:04:30

have been for me to lapse into that

1:04:32

sort of shtetl dialect. Because it

1:04:34

was available to me in the same way this is all available to

1:04:36

them. It comes down to the generation. It's

1:04:38

right there. And

1:04:41

so what I did, and this

1:04:45

is something I'm proud of in the movie, which is

1:04:47

I resisted these impulses to

1:04:50

turn it into that white savior narrative. Because

1:04:52

there were pressures on all sides to do

1:04:54

something like that. And

1:04:56

I did not. In fact, I did the opposite.

1:04:59

It's an amazing story because ultimately the

1:05:01

lesson of it has nothing to do

1:05:03

with the battle because it was lost.

1:05:06

Exactly. I mean, the war was won. But

1:05:08

even the battle that was supposed

1:05:10

to, they were servicing, knowing they were

1:05:12

going to sacrifice themselves

1:05:14

failed. Yeah. And

1:05:17

that's a heavy ending. But

1:05:20

it is the history of the struggle.

1:05:22

Exactly. And in

1:05:24

fact, I had a great professor

1:05:27

in college who was talking

1:05:29

about Shakespeare. He said the thing about tragedy

1:05:31

is it's the most restful. Is

1:05:33

it conforms to something we understand about life. And

1:05:37

that in some sense, that these men were

1:05:39

doomed. And there's something beautiful

1:05:42

in their sacrifice. And also

1:05:44

you were able to, there's a nice turn in the

1:05:46

book bringing that teacher of yours from

1:05:48

high school. Yeah. That it was

1:05:50

important to you. Yeah, it was. Like that

1:05:52

was my own moment for that

1:05:55

movie was when then he saw that movie. Yeah.

1:05:57

And you didn't know if he had and then he saw

1:05:59

him. Good moment. Yeah one of

1:06:01

those moments. Yeah better than an Oscar

1:06:05

Yeah, I think so sure. I mean You

1:06:08

know, yeah, pretty cut because he planted

1:06:10

the seed right? Yeah. Yeah, it's rare

1:06:12

You get any kind of closure in

1:06:14

that kind of relationship? That's

1:06:17

true where you can say

1:06:19

look and especially when you have you know

1:06:21

a fucked up dad So

1:06:23

you're not gonna get what you need from him. Oh, you

1:06:26

notice that yeah But but but

1:06:28

you just like you know The struggle is

1:06:30

is to let go of the idea that

1:06:32

that dad is going to give you what

1:06:34

you need Right and then you have these

1:06:36

other people in your life because you find

1:06:38

them in order to put yourself together That's

1:06:40

right. And one of them shows up. Who

1:06:43

did you have? I had a

1:06:45

few. Yeah. Yeah I mean either

1:06:47

I think that when you have selfish

1:06:50

Ratic fathers you have

1:06:53

a series of mentors. It seems like you did as well, you

1:06:55

know, whether You know, it's

1:06:57

Sydney or this guy or whatever. I had

1:06:59

a guy who owned a bookstore file And

1:07:01

you know, I've had some bad mentors sure,

1:07:03

you know when I was younger as a

1:07:05

comic, you know And but but they they

1:07:08

they keep coming. Mm-hmm, you know, sometimes

1:07:10

I guess I'm old now But but

1:07:13

yeah, you rely on them, you know, or else you have

1:07:15

no have you been mentor ills to other younger ones? I

1:07:18

Guess so, you know, the show is fairly

1:07:20

relevant to a lot of people sure So

1:07:23

that happens twice a week and you know,

1:07:25

I try to give reasonably honest advice which

1:07:28

is you know Get out It's

1:07:34

a long shot man, yeah, if you're not

1:07:36

cut out for it figure it out Right.

1:07:39

Yep. I mean what else are you

1:07:42

gonna say? I mean even this lovely book you

1:07:44

wrote with all these practical advice to directing movies

1:07:46

I mean, you know that can all

1:07:48

make sense to somebody but then you got to

1:07:50

get in I mean you got to get in

1:07:52

yeah, and but but

1:07:54

to the benefit is that anybody can put

1:07:56

something out you bet You know

1:07:58

you you you can do that. Yeah,

1:08:01

it sort of reverses the old sort

1:08:03

of the Marxist dictate,

1:08:05

which it used to be that they

1:08:07

controlled the means of production. Now the

1:08:10

means of production are available, but now

1:08:12

it's about the means of distribution. Sure.

1:08:14

Well, that's interesting. But eventually, you know,

1:08:17

when a lot of times they

1:08:20

will control the means of production. Yes.

1:08:23

Either you're lucky

1:08:25

enough to sell it

1:08:27

yourself and make your own

1:08:30

little world a show business, or the

1:08:32

means of production will take your thing.

1:08:34

That's true. And do it. Yep. But

1:08:37

yeah, but the other thing is definitely available

1:08:39

and you can

1:08:41

keep pushing. Yeah. But

1:08:43

throughout the career, you talk

1:08:46

about the failure of leaving normal.

1:08:49

That was a timing thing and you had

1:08:51

other struggles with actresses and what was going

1:08:53

to happen. The other story in here is

1:08:55

producing Shakespeare in Love, which was that was

1:08:57

crazy. That whole thing was crazy. You

1:09:00

were going to direct it falls apart. There's

1:09:02

a battle with Weinstein, the monster. There's all that

1:09:04

stuff. That's all in there. Yep. That's all there.

1:09:06

And you didn't end up getting to direct it.

1:09:09

That must have hurt after all

1:09:11

that work with Stoppard and everything else killed me, killed

1:09:13

me. And I couldn't imagine, you know, but there's, it's

1:09:18

never a question of if you're going to get knocked

1:09:20

down in this business. It's just about when. But you

1:09:22

state this and what do you do? What do you

1:09:24

do? Are you going to get up or not? What's

1:09:26

your choice? But over the year, how many, like from

1:09:29

the beginning, from when you took that on, when you

1:09:31

got that script and you convinced Tom Stoppard

1:09:33

to fix it and then, you know,

1:09:35

you get going. What I

1:09:37

was trying to tell you is I become

1:09:40

less tolerant of movie stars. The more I

1:09:42

read books like yours or the more I

1:09:44

hear stories, I heard VIM vendors the other

1:09:46

night talking about Harry Dean Stanton not understanding

1:09:48

why there couldn't be a happy ending to

1:09:50

Paris, Texas. And I was like, oh my

1:09:52

God, was that guy a moron? So, but

1:09:56

that's not what they're hired for. They're hired to

1:09:58

act. They're not hired to understand necessarily. early? Right?

1:10:01

Yeah, I guess. It's just, it's not

1:10:03

as simple as that. It's not, they

1:10:05

are. I know. They're out there, you

1:10:08

know. I love them. They're some

1:10:10

great movie stars. You're out there, you're in

1:10:12

the space, in the capsule, they're on a

1:10:14

spacewalk untethered with

1:10:17

zero G and they're

1:10:19

floating in some sense and you're there with

1:10:22

a cup of coffee and, you know, presuming

1:10:24

to... I guess so. I understand that, but

1:10:26

sometimes, like, you know, I had dinner with

1:10:28

James Gray last night. It's

1:10:30

just that there's sometimes, like, you know,

1:10:32

when you're not leaving the trailer, this,

1:10:34

you know, the fights and stuff, there's

1:10:37

some part of me because, you know,

1:10:39

I think I'm more probably like a

1:10:41

little more codependent and maybe somewhat like

1:10:43

you where you're like, what are they

1:10:46

doing? What kind of bullshit is?

1:10:48

Grow the fuck up. You

1:10:51

know, it's, a lot of that

1:10:53

is fear and a lot of it, I mean,

1:10:55

fear leads people to behave badly and

1:10:58

a lot of that is fear. I guess there's a lot

1:11:00

in the balance, there's a lot to carry a movie. I

1:11:02

mean, you talk about making Legends of the Fall and working

1:11:04

with Brad. Yeah, but like, for instance, even I,

1:11:07

this is the first time in this book

1:11:09

I've had the privilege of writing things in

1:11:12

the mouths and putting them in the mouths of pretty

1:11:14

people well-lit over there on the stage. This

1:11:16

is the first time I've written in the

1:11:18

first person. And I

1:11:21

feel a vulnerability that's utterly different than

1:11:23

I might have had when

1:11:25

I was sort of protected and

1:11:28

guarded. They're unguarded. And in

1:11:30

fact, if I get sent to movie

1:11:32

jail, which I have been before. For

1:11:36

leaving Norm. Yeah, but I can write my way out

1:11:38

of it or I carry it all with me. And

1:11:40

an actor is out there, in some

1:11:43

sense dependent on that

1:11:45

thing. They feel that they're going to be

1:11:47

succeed or fail at this point

1:11:49

and may never be able to understand how they got

1:11:51

to that point again. Okay,

1:11:54

I understand that. I'm like, I'm not judging.

1:11:56

I'm just having a human experience with

1:11:58

their behavior. experience with their

1:12:00

behavior is something you have to be

1:12:03

empathetic with. But also it's

1:12:06

not that that bothers me, it's

1:12:09

ingratitude. When you

1:12:11

encounter that and you see someone taking

1:12:14

something for granted that is a privilege,

1:12:17

that's the thing that makes me crazy.

1:12:20

In an actor or in

1:12:22

anybody? Anybody, particularly in an

1:12:24

actor. Yeah, it's a hell of

1:12:27

a balance and you've worked with the biggest actors. I

1:12:29

mean the story with Brad who was young, you

1:12:32

forget these guys were young, Legends

1:12:34

of the Fall which he did a great job in but

1:12:36

ultimately was not an easy shoot in a lot of ways.

1:12:38

But as the arc kind

1:12:41

of continues and after all is said and done,

1:12:43

you had a moment with him. Yep, yep.

1:12:47

And look, we're

1:12:49

all really in some

1:12:51

sense reactive, passionate,

1:12:54

triggered people by very

1:12:57

intense situations. Sure. And

1:13:00

that sometimes yields

1:13:02

behavior that is extreme

1:13:04

and it really

1:13:06

depends how you address that.

1:13:09

Look, and he talked about Sydney, Sydney and Redford.

1:13:11

I'm very interested in all these directors

1:13:14

and actors who have made multiple movies together

1:13:16

because you create a shorthand but

1:13:18

it doesn't mean that it's easy. I've made

1:13:20

three movies with Denzel, right?

1:13:23

And the relationship will

1:13:25

ebb and flow and be sometimes

1:13:28

day to day. What

1:13:30

was the third one? It's called The Siege.

1:13:33

Oh, Courage Under Fire? Yeah. And The

1:13:35

Siege? Yeah. Well, that guy's

1:13:38

unbelievable. He's the best. There's

1:13:40

nobody better that I could point to as

1:13:43

a career. But

1:13:45

just like, I

1:13:47

had Ethan Hawken here once and I'll never forget it.

1:13:50

When he was preparing for Training Day,

1:13:52

he watched Denzel movies like they were

1:13:54

game films. So

1:13:57

he would be able to hold his own. Yeah. in

1:14:01

frame with him. And I've talked even about this too.

1:14:03

I mean, I think at

1:14:05

least a third of what Denzel does in that

1:14:07

movie is improvised. It's

1:14:09

big, man. He really let

1:14:11

it loose. He did. Right? Yeah.

1:14:14

Yeah, it's remarkable. And you saw him at

1:14:16

the beginning in glory. Yeah. And it was there

1:14:18

then. I mean, there was a guy who, the

1:14:20

man who produced the movie was a guy named

1:14:22

Freddy Fields, famous scoundrel, legendary

1:14:25

agent. And the minute we looked

1:14:27

at Denzel on

1:14:29

the screen, I remember him sitting in the

1:14:31

back of the room saying, Jesus

1:14:34

Christ, the kid carries his own lights. You're

1:14:38

in a scene with a group of five other people and he's the

1:14:40

only person you could look at. Yeah. Yeah.

1:14:42

I mean, I'll go, like I'm not a huge

1:14:44

action movie guy, but lately I have been. Yes,

1:14:47

he'll go see the equalizers. I do. I'll go

1:14:49

see him do that. It's pretty great. Even now

1:14:51

he's old too and he's still doing it. Look

1:14:53

at that watch. You know

1:14:55

what I mean? But it's

1:14:57

still satisfying, right? Yep. Yep. And

1:15:00

then like with Tom Cruise too, I mean, it took

1:15:02

you a while to work with him, right?

1:15:06

And you did. Well, I mean, this

1:15:08

is important to say. I mean, there's

1:15:10

nobody easier to work with than Tom

1:15:12

Cruise. Yeah. I

1:15:14

mean, his willingness

1:15:16

to jump in and. Right.

1:15:19

And he's not going to be a difficult

1:15:21

movie star. Oh no, not at all. No.

1:15:23

Was it fun to work

1:15:25

with? Yeah. I like that movie. Yeah.

1:15:27

Last Samurai. Yeah. It was fun.

1:15:29

It was one of those experiences that you can

1:15:32

actually make some bold

1:15:34

decisions, you know, directorially and feel a

1:15:36

little bit like David Lean for a

1:15:39

minute or two. Big. Yeah. Expansive. Yeah.

1:15:41

But so is Glory, but you have

1:15:43

more money with Samurai, right? Yeah. So

1:15:45

you have more horses. Exactly. Take

1:15:51

a little more time with the horses. But

1:15:54

at DiCaprio too with Blood Diamond, you work with

1:15:56

that guy. You know, and when

1:15:58

you're starting to talk like about. Tom

1:16:01

or about

1:16:03

DiCaprio, they

1:16:05

are at ease with their

1:16:07

professionalism and their position

1:16:10

and their ability that it

1:16:12

does not become complex. In fact,

1:16:14

DiCaprio is a wonderful

1:16:16

collaborator and he's there to do

1:16:19

the work. And

1:16:21

it was a difficult movie. He

1:16:24

got hurt during it. He

1:16:27

hurt a hamstring and didn't let it show. He

1:16:29

just was a gamer. And

1:16:32

yeah, I think one reason

1:16:34

that I got along with Cruise is that he'd been a wrestler

1:16:36

too. Come on. True.

1:16:39

You're able to use your wrestling bona

1:16:41

fides? I think so. Wow.

1:16:45

But all in all,

1:16:47

with almost any movie,

1:16:50

a lot of things have to

1:16:52

cosmically come together for

1:16:54

it to work. And

1:16:56

there's so many people that are being

1:16:58

part of it, even when you

1:17:00

were talking about Legends

1:17:03

of the Fall, where the wardrobe budget

1:17:05

went crazy because how the hell are

1:17:07

you going to know that? But

1:17:10

when all these things balance out, you

1:17:12

have this collaborative, amazing

1:17:15

piece of work. And

1:17:18

there's no way, all you can do is set the

1:17:20

stage for that to happen. The

1:17:23

process is that you have a script and you

1:17:25

pray that it raises the hair on your

1:17:28

arms, that it feels like a thing itself.

1:17:31

You then deconstruct it. Things

1:17:33

are broken up into their little discrete

1:17:35

parts and spread out all over weeks

1:17:37

and months and years. And

1:17:39

you pray that when you put it together,

1:17:41

that it has the same integrity of a

1:17:44

car that's dissembled and put

1:17:46

together and does it run? Does it have that

1:17:48

same power and speed? That's

1:17:51

why you talk about scripts.

1:17:53

That's why you realize that that is the

1:17:56

money right there. That

1:17:59

is the blue print and it

1:18:01

has to have integrity and it has to be tested

1:18:04

and stress tested and all sorts of things because

1:18:06

at the end of the day that's

1:18:08

what it's going to be. Yes it can be elevated but

1:18:11

it either exists or doesn't exist. That

1:18:13

is the foundation. Yeah

1:18:15

I mean you should be able to you know kick

1:18:18

it and throw it down a flight of stairs and

1:18:20

it would still be itself. Right, right

1:18:23

and the process of hammering that out which

1:18:25

you do again and again you know

1:18:28

with these different projects that

1:18:31

you know that it's not the

1:18:33

most work but you know the

1:18:35

work that has to go into just getting to

1:18:37

the starting point. Yeah it's crazy. Yeah it is

1:18:39

crazy. And is it still like that for

1:18:41

you? Yeah

1:18:44

you know the difference I think is that

1:18:46

is that the business now what

1:18:50

seems to be we can

1:18:53

talk all about you know IP and we

1:18:55

can talk about superheroes and all of that

1:18:57

and we know what effect that's had. Right.

1:18:59

But the decisions to make a thing that

1:19:01

is iconoclastic is more

1:19:03

difficult because the decisions are being made by

1:19:05

groups. Right. In other words I think

1:19:07

it's a legacy of the Silicon Valley where

1:19:10

things are talked about to the

1:19:12

team. Things have to

1:19:14

be acceptable. That wasn't the old school way. You

1:19:16

kind of went up the chain of the studio

1:19:18

and usually one person took on the agency and

1:19:21

they advocated

1:19:23

for that thing and drove it through. Right.

1:19:26

And in each of those things I was able

1:19:28

to do is because finally one person put

1:19:30

them their ass on the line. Right. And

1:19:33

these days when you're trying to talk about a thing that

1:19:35

appeals to everyone, that's

1:19:38

business. That's not art. That's

1:19:41

commerce. Right.

1:19:43

And you know

1:19:46

when things are homogenized they tend

1:19:48

to be less good. Right. And I

1:19:50

think that's one of the differences why there are

1:19:52

any number of economic differences obviously why there aren't

1:19:54

as many of those movies as that list that

1:19:56

you talked about in 1979. The

1:20:00

other reason is that there

1:20:02

is not the willingness

1:20:04

to allow that singularity of

1:20:06

vision to rule

1:20:08

or to lead. Right,

1:20:10

because everyone's afraid about taking the hit, losing

1:20:12

the money. Exactly. Who's going to

1:20:14

get blamed? It's like displacing

1:20:17

blame seems to be the game on

1:20:19

exactly the level. And the protection of

1:20:21

your downside. Right. And

1:20:23

also the algorithm. The

1:20:25

algorithm is not your friend. Of course

1:20:27

not. It's a fucking nightmare. It's making

1:20:29

everybody crazy. That's right. Every

1:20:32

different algorithm. Everyone's being algorithmed into

1:20:34

shallowness or insanity. Right.

1:20:38

But oddly, you look

1:20:40

at this year's movies

1:20:42

in relation to that list again,

1:20:45

there's some pretty singular visions. What

1:20:48

happens is you gain a certain amount of currency

1:20:50

in a career, of capital, as

1:20:54

a director. And then you choose

1:20:56

to spend it. And you get that opportunity. That's what

1:20:58

Greta has. That's what Chris had

1:21:00

with Oppenheimer. Bradley. With Bradley's

1:21:02

hat. Deservedly so. Yeah. If

1:21:04

you screw the pooch with it, you're not going to get

1:21:07

it the second time. Now maybe somebody else will. Right. But

1:21:09

that's happened to me too. I mean, there have been

1:21:12

moments when I've had that capital, I've been able to

1:21:14

spend and enforce that vision upon

1:21:16

a more reluctant

1:21:19

financial universe. Well, I mean, it seems like,

1:21:21

well, I mean, you could sort of see

1:21:24

in the way the filmography plays

1:21:27

out, right? Yep. So the

1:21:30

courage under, you had a really good

1:21:32

run, right? Legends, Courage Under Fire, Siege.

1:21:34

Last Samurai did well, right? Blood Diamond,

1:21:36

okay. Yeah. Yeah. And

1:21:38

then Defiance. Yeah, well, I mean, but there's a pretty

1:21:40

good example. It's a good movie. Yeah, but see, that's

1:21:42

it. I have this capital. I wanted to

1:21:45

make a movie about the Jews. Yeah. Tough

1:21:47

Jews. I wanted to make a movie about a tough Jews. Yeah.

1:21:50

And the answer is, okay, do that. With

1:21:52

Daniel Craig. Do it with James Bond. And

1:21:56

it did okay. Yeah. And It

1:21:58

didn't set the world on fire. You know and

1:22:00

so then use Take a step back and it's it's

1:22:02

just been this. it's it is. If you look at

1:22:05

anybody's I am to be any good directors I am

1:22:07

to be. It's the same story. Yeah. right?

1:22:09

Know But then you go from Mar ah

1:22:11

that to us love and other drugs which

1:22:14

is an entertaining movie or yeah. I.

1:22:16

Buy did it take the I

1:22:18

Did sign define pawn sacrifice. Yeah,

1:22:21

I know that one. but Bobby Fischer.

1:22:24

It Sir Bobby Fischer and Boris Bass on

1:22:26

the an hour. That's a good one as

1:22:28

a good story it's a good movie yeah

1:22:30

but against didn't get the right distribution. Jack

1:22:32

Reacher the Your Back On Pc is set

1:22:34

up and down in a down in the

1:22:36

great was move and will happen as well

1:22:38

as you How Cells or that controversy. I

1:22:40

walked away our I was in the Gobi

1:22:42

desert and I was dealing with a company

1:22:44

that was lying to me and I said

1:22:46

thank you very much the by and they

1:22:48

let them take part of the script and

1:22:50

I'd. Let someone else director. Okay,

1:22:53

Or it's oh so you did. They picked on the

1:22:55

wrong hippie. Oh. Sh

1:22:57

got out, I I got out and I

1:23:00

didn't I didn't see these new ones. Yeah,

1:23:02

I didn't see American Assassin. Yeah, I should

1:23:04

see you. Know. Okay, You.

1:23:07

Are you in direct our know? And I

1:23:09

see trial by Fire. Ah, It's

1:23:11

an interesting movie. yeah again of

1:23:13

his. it's a movie. It's of

1:23:16

the movie but capital Punishment. And

1:23:18

it's have a strong movie okay and all the

1:23:20

ones you to hear you produce to add to

1:23:22

it. I in i don't think I you know

1:23:25

you did or Shakespeare in Love That Noise and.

1:23:27

Tremendous story traffic. Amazing Yeah, that was

1:23:29

it was A That was actually a

1:23:32

great great result. Access To I love

1:23:34

that movie I Am Sam Interesting Vs

1:23:36

on E. S S.

1:23:38

V at the commentary on I Am

1:23:40

Sam in Tropic Thunder is the best

1:23:43

day of I am. I have to

1:23:45

agree with. Us.

1:23:50

At that is the best. but

1:23:53

yeah you keep going man and and

1:23:55

i and i found the book enjoyable

1:23:57

unreadable but also because i'm i'm I'm

1:24:00

right now in the process. I optioned my buddy's

1:24:02

book and we're kind of we're working on

1:24:04

a script I'm planning to direct it.

1:24:07

Okay, so it's actually very helpful to me.

1:24:09

I Nothing

1:24:11

could make me happier is that that that's um, you

1:24:13

know, oh, yeah bit of service it has been and

1:24:15

it was great talking to you man There

1:24:24

you go, Ed's wick the book hits flops

1:24:26

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1:24:29

you get books hang out for a minute people

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1:24:37

no point in fighting it people I'm getting

1:24:39

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1:24:41

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registered broker dealer. Five

1:26:54

years ago, folks, we aired a momentous episode.

1:26:56

In advance of my guest appearance on The

1:26:58

Simpsons, I sat down with cast member Yardley

1:27:01

Smith for a full WTF interview, but I

1:27:03

also got to talk to Krusty the Clown.

1:27:05

Red Fox. Oh boy.

1:27:07

I had stories about he was

1:27:10

so dirty. Funny. Very funny, but

1:27:12

dirty. Yeah. I used to open

1:27:14

for him. But you know, what?

1:27:18

I couldn't say a single joke that he said

1:27:20

on this. It's a podcast. You

1:27:22

can say whatever you want. Let

1:27:25

me whisper it in your ear first. The

1:27:28

other day, I said, what?

1:27:30

Jesus. Now that's in

1:27:35

my head? I'll never get that out of my head.

1:27:38

God, that is filthy. You

1:27:40

know, you ruined donuts for me. You

1:27:43

ruined them. You ruined them for me too. I love

1:27:45

donuts and now never again.

1:27:47

Oh my God, Krusty. You know, I'm

1:27:49

on blintzes now. You've polluted my brain.

1:27:52

Blintzes, how are they? They good? Oh, they're

1:27:54

great. Red Fox got another dirty story about

1:27:56

that. You want to hear? Yeah. And

1:28:00

there's a hive, eh, I'm gonna give it a, give

1:28:03

it a, a muscle. And voila!

1:28:06

Oh my God! I

1:28:08

didn't even eat that many blintzes! Now I'm sorry for

1:28:10

the ones I did eat! Do you want me to

1:28:12

ruin any other food for you? Oh, with a Red

1:28:14

Fox joke? It's a great diet. That's episode 994 with

1:28:18

Yardley Smith and Krusty the Clown. You

1:28:20

can listen to that right now on

1:28:22

all podcast platforms. To get every episode

1:28:24

of WTF ad-free, sign up

1:28:26

for WTF Plus. Just click on the link in

1:28:28

the episode description or go to wtfpod.com

1:28:31

and click on WTF

1:28:33

Plus. And before we go, this show

1:28:36

is sponsored by BetterHelp. Remember, friendships and

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more at betterhelp.com.

1:29:03

That's betterhelp.com/WTF. Here's

1:29:06

a lick that I think I've done 90 variations

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of before.

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betterhelp.com Boomer

1:30:26

lives, monkey and lafonda

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cat angels everywhere. All

1:30:31

right.