0:01

Hey folks, it's Oscar time and if

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you're signed up for the full Maron,

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you'll get two bonus Oscar talk episodes

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this week. I thought Anatomy of a

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Follow was great. Something happened this year

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that hasn't happened in a long time.

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That's a brilliant performance and he deserves

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it. I'd love to see him

0:18

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Sign up by clicking on the link right there in the

0:29

episode description. Okay,

0:43

how's it going folks? What's happening?

0:45

You want me to do the whole thing? Is

0:48

this, but this is a special episode. Let's do this.

0:51

How are you? Everybody all right? Special

0:54

episode. So, we did

0:56

one of these last year and people liked

0:58

it so we're doing it again. It's

1:01

basically Oscar centric, but by

1:03

way of the history of this show,

1:07

as usual, a lot of the year's Oscar nominees

1:09

have been on the show for long talks about

1:12

their lives and careers and stuff. 14

1:16

of this year's nominees have been WTF guests

1:18

in the past. This is

1:20

one of those exciting things where I don't

1:22

even realize because I'm

1:24

just in the day. I'm moving

1:27

forward. I don't, sometimes

1:29

I don't even remember the people we've had

1:31

on, but this is amazing. We're going to

1:33

kick it off here with Paul Giamatti, who

1:36

was nominated for Best Actor for the Holdovers.

1:39

This was a talk that was so good

1:41

we made it our 1500th episode. You

1:44

have any of your movies that you like look at and

1:46

you're like, oh my God, what was that? Probably.

1:50

I don't know. I

1:52

don't watch a whole lot of them. Like

1:54

weird, some of the weird, yeah,

1:57

I mean I did this kids movie that's

1:59

probably the weirdest. weirdest thing. Really? Yeah,

2:01

I did this movie called Big Fat

2:04

Liar. Yeah. That's

2:06

like kids, generations of people

2:08

have seen this thing. It's just bizarre.

2:10

Yeah. I mean, it's really strange. Yeah,

2:12

well maybe that's gonna be one of those movies when these

2:14

kids grow up like, I had no idea what that was

2:16

about. Oh no. Totally. That

2:19

would be amazing. If that was their fucking,

2:21

if that was their Paris section. Their

2:24

blue velvet. Yeah, their blue velvet.

2:26

Oh yeah. Oh, I'd love

2:28

that actually. That would be great. I've never even

2:30

thought that that's going into people's

2:32

kids' heads and it might be the same thing. I

2:35

never thought about that. That is fucking

2:37

some bizarre thing that's gonna haunt a kid. Of course

2:39

it is. Yeah. I know, but I

2:41

never really think of that. I was recently exploring

2:43

the fact that my grandparents accidentally

2:45

took me and my brother when they

2:47

were visiting us in New Mexico to

2:50

see deliverance, not knowing what it was. Like

2:52

when it came out. Sure. And the weird

2:54

thing about that though, Paul, like

2:56

I remember the rape scene,

2:59

but all I remember, because all

3:01

I remember was there was a man in

3:03

his underwear. You know, they're

3:05

making noises. Yeah, right. That's all I remember.

3:07

And then I watched it again recently. I'm

3:09

like, holy fuck. Holy shit. They really raped

3:12

that guy. That movie's terrifying. But my

3:14

child brain didn't register it. No, you didn't get it. Yeah,

3:16

exactly. No, you just didn't get it. This is the same

3:18

with the velvet. My mother did that. My

3:22

mother did that stuff, took us through like

3:24

wildly inappropriate things like that. I'm glad

3:27

because it went in, you know what I mean?

3:29

Like I absorbed it and that's cool

3:31

because something went in there in an interesting way,

3:33

but I didn't know what the fuck was going

3:35

on. I remember seeing the

3:37

conversation. Yeah, I'd say it was hard-wearing. And it

3:39

was terrifying to me. It was just scary.

3:41

I was like, I don't know what's going on. I

3:43

have no idea what's going on. But that guy should

3:46

have taken apart his entire house. I don't know what's

3:48

going on, but it terrified me. Because

3:50

I absorbed the menace of it. Because of the obsession of it. I

3:52

got the menace of it. Nothing else.

3:54

And that's a very like mental menace.

3:56

Yeah, yeah. You feel the menace of

3:58

it even as a little kid. So you

4:02

decide you go to Yale undergrad? Yeah, and you

4:04

study what I studied English I

4:07

ended up studying you did you take your dad's

4:09

class? No, he was not there anymore Oh, he

4:11

wasn't now. No, he'd left he'd left by then.

4:13

Where'd he go? He sort

4:15

of didn't do anything for a little while. He was

4:17

that a weird time probably for

4:19

him. It was yeah Were your parents together?

4:21

Yes, they were yes. Yes I

4:25

guess I don't know. Sometimes I'm like probably

4:27

would have been better not to yeah. Yeah

4:31

But yeah, he took like I

4:33

took a couple he maybe a year or

4:35

two before he Yeah

4:37

became the baseball commissioner. Before he went into baseball.

4:39

But he was the president of Yale. He was. For

4:42

years? No, not for that

4:44

long. I think most of those guys stay

4:46

in that job for years. Yeah, I don't

4:48

think he liked doing it It's hard to

4:50

be a bureaucrat in academia. Yeah Not

4:53

fun, I don't. He's a writer. He's a

4:55

teacher at Columbia and he's a brilliant guy.

4:57

Yeah, Sam Lipsite. Yeah and But

5:00

like when you hear about what it takes to

5:02

be like a tenured guy and just to deal

5:04

with That is a shark tank

5:06

and it's like I don't think he I think

5:09

I think he thought that was gonna be maybe

5:11

more enjoyable Than it was and it wasn't. Yeah,

5:13

because you're a manager. You're a manager. That's the

5:15

best Yeah, it's like you're just a money you're

5:17

raising money the whole time. So when you did

5:20

undergrad, did you learn anything? Um,

5:23

what was your focus? I

5:25

guess like Americans of the 19th century

5:27

American stuff like like po and Melville

5:29

Oh really? Which was stuff I like

5:31

to read so that was easier. I

5:33

was a romantic literature

5:37

It was my focus undergrad, but both year for

5:39

the both semesters of the focus. It was at

5:42

9 in the morning Yeah, it was tough

5:44

going dude. So you mean like like reading

5:46

like like Shelley Byron and Byron? Yeah, I

5:49

can't read poetry. It makes no sense. And

5:51

I was cramming it and I'm not I

5:53

think I might still have an incomplete I'm

5:57

pretty sure I probably do I'm pretty sure

5:59

I probably It was I think was a

6:01

paper on Blake. Oh, yeah. Well, yeah, well that

6:03

stuff actually I can read that sort of some

6:06

of that Yeah, but yeah, we had very simple

6:08

language, but then they're in the drawings and then

6:10

there's you know You know just some books upon

6:12

books of analysis and I'm like, what are they

6:14

seeing? I know why are you? Well, that's a

6:16

whole other thing is the clinical shit. I couldn't

6:19

read no So it was good

6:21

because I was reading like Edgar Allan pump. I'm really horror

6:23

stories. Yeah, that was good Yeah, yeah, yeah, but then you

6:25

get it you get done with that and you decide like

6:27

I don't want to teach But

6:29

because what I think the thing that I did I

6:33

Don't know that I'd learned much about it,

6:35

but I did a lot of extracurricular theater

6:37

right graduate Yeah, that's really what I and

6:39

so like that the non Theatre

6:41

school theater company. Yeah, so

6:44

that's what so yeah, but what did you

6:46

do whatever you would do? I

6:49

did Indian wants a bronch that kind of thing

6:51

a lot like people did Hurley Burley stuff like

6:53

that I didn't do story. We did a story.

6:55

We did Glengarry Glen raw. That's bull Yeah, that

6:57

was bull because I think they didn't have the

6:59

rights to it. All right when we did it

7:01

So I nothing like a bunch of 19. Yeah

7:05

So like sitting around in trench coats trying

7:07

to be like old old Jews

7:09

from Chicago Now totally powder

7:12

the white powder Fantastic

7:21

Everyone's parents loved it Who

7:24

knows maybe it was good. Yeah, maybe it

7:26

was people maybe But

7:31

stuff like that, yeah, and so yeah, whatever

7:33

just you talk to it you're like, well, yeah,

7:35

I really enjoyed doing that Yeah, I think probably

7:37

if I I don't know if I learned anything,

7:39

but that's what I did. Yeah, that was episode

7:41

1500 with Paul Giamatti Another

7:44

best actor nominee was on last year when

7:46

he was making the rounds for Oppenheimer I

7:49

didn't know like a lot of

7:51

times with actors. I'm not even sure they can talk But

7:53

this was great. Here's me and

7:55

Killian Murphy. So the

7:58

relationship with with Nolan is six

8:00

movies long now. Yep. I

8:02

mean, what have you learned from that guy? How does

8:04

he work? I think he's kind of like, I think

8:07

he might be the perfect director. You know, he's got

8:09

all of the facets that you need

8:11

in the perfect director. Yeah. Amazing

8:14

with actors. He's incredibly brilliant

8:17

visually. He writes the

8:19

things himself and they're made

8:21

for the theaters. You know, they are like event

8:24

movies, but they challenge you. You know, I

8:26

love the way he presupposes

8:28

a level of intelligence

8:30

in the audience. Yeah. Doesn't

8:32

happen often. No. And he

8:34

knows the audience aren't dummies and he knows the audience can

8:37

keep up and he knows the audience doesn't

8:39

want to be provoked and challenged. I love

8:41

working with him and he really pushes it.

8:44

He expects the best from you and he's

8:47

rigorous at everything and demanding.

8:51

The sets are huge too. I mean, it's just huge. But

8:53

here's the weird thing. The sets are huge, but it feels

8:55

like being on an independent movie. There's just Chris and the

8:57

camera man, one camera always, unless there's

9:00

some huge, huge set piece and

9:02

the boom up and that's it.

9:05

And there's no video village, there's no monitors, there's nothing.

9:07

Oh really? Yeah. He

9:09

doesn't use any of that? None of that.

9:11

I mean, he's a very kind of analog

9:14

filmmaker. Interesting. You know? Even on Dunkirk?

9:16

Mm-hmm. Man. Yeah.

9:19

And I didn't see a frame of this movie until I

9:21

saw the first teaser. Of Oppenheimer? Yeah. I

9:23

mean, I've never seen anything on Chris's films until

9:26

I see the trailer or the

9:28

finished thing. Really? Yeah.

9:31

And he rarely does ADR. I've done six movies with him. I

9:33

think I've done like four lines of ADR. No shit. Yeah,

9:35

because he records sound really well and

9:38

he believes in production, you

9:40

know, production sound and

9:42

he creates an environment for the actors. There's

9:44

no green screen. There's no, none

9:46

of that. I found

9:48

it to be so like

9:50

the guy, there was, you know, it was a press press.

9:53

It wasn't a screen. So it wasn't

9:55

packed. It wasn't a premiere or anything. Yeah. But whoever

9:57

was running it was like, all right, this is a

9:59

70 million. millimeter print on film the

10:01

way Chris wanted you to see it.

10:07

I felt like it does make a difference. I think

10:09

it's highly aware of it for some reason in that

10:11

movie. I know there's other movies that are shot like

10:13

that. I mean Tarantino shoots like that. But because you're

10:15

in IMAX, you know, it's

10:18

like, you know, it's different. The effect is different.

10:20

I mean Chris says it's kind of like 3D

10:22

without being 3D. I guess,

10:24

to me it just reminds me of like movies

10:26

theaters when I was a kid. It's a big

10:29

old screen. You know where you feel like

10:31

you're really at an event. Yeah. But

10:33

like the opportunity and like for me

10:35

like as look I did one scene

10:37

with De Niro in passing in Joker.

10:41

You know, and you know, and I'm sure he has

10:43

no recollection of me. It didn't matter. I said, you

10:45

know, you know, just whatever it was. But you know,

10:47

there is that awareness and I imagine even

10:49

though you've done, you know, dozens of movies

10:51

at this point. There's awareness. Yeah,

10:54

these are just people and certainly, you know that

10:56

actors are painfully people. Yes, I do. But

10:59

you're aware that sort of like, all right, you

11:02

know game on. I'm sitting here

11:04

with Casey Affleck. Hmm. And we got to

11:06

do this thing. Yeah. And

11:08

like I always like seeing that guy. Yeah, man.

11:10

He's so good in the movie. That was great. That was

11:12

a that was a big scene. Yeah.

11:15

Yeah, and he came in and he was ready

11:17

to go and it was again like it again

11:19

all these stupid kind of analogies. Yeah. It does

11:21

raise your game. It does make you better when

11:23

you're working with the best actors. It does it

11:25

does do that. It's

11:28

true and this is a perfect

11:30

case in points like you have these some of my

11:32

favorite actors in the world. Yeah. Because they all want

11:34

to work with Chris. Yeah. So they all come in

11:36

and they play these parts and the other thing about

11:38

the movie I think is because you got a lot

11:40

of movie stars in it, but every time every character

11:43

they play they're very significant characters. So it doesn't feel

11:45

like cameos, if you

11:47

know what I mean, because they're all playing these

11:49

real-life characters who had a big impact on

11:52

the world. And also I didn't feel the

11:54

movie starness of anybody. Yeah. And

11:56

that's sort of a miracle, but it's just so

11:58

interesting that you had to carry this movie. in

12:01

this character that operates at a level,

12:04

right? Like, you definitely have,

12:06

you're holding on to this stuff that

12:08

you're talking about, and his affectation is

12:10

what it is. Which doesn't, you

12:12

know, he is who he is all the way

12:14

through. And then you just, all of a sudden

12:17

these other actors, like, you gotta deal with Downey,

12:19

he steps into this thing. And I

12:21

just, I imagine that you're just holding on to

12:25

the character you've built in certain

12:27

moments, you have to be aware of that.

12:30

Like, you're sort of like, alright, just

12:32

stay focused. Yeah,

12:35

of course. But it was a joy, man.

12:37

It was a joy working with these actors.

12:40

Like, I really felt, I'll probably never get

12:42

a chance to work with an ensemble of

12:45

actors like that again. It'll probably never happen.

12:47

So, I just, I

12:49

enjoyed every minute of it. And again, you know, we talked

12:51

about, like, learning. You look at

12:53

all those amazing actors, you work with all those amazing actors,

12:55

you're always learning, you're always figuring stuff out and

12:58

this was like, just

13:01

special. That's Killian Murphy from episode

13:03

1453. Now,

13:06

okay, so best actor nominee Jeffrey

13:08

Wright was on the show back

13:10

when we were still doing remote interviews because of

13:12

the pandemic. But it

13:14

was still great. This is from episode 1126. Jeffrey

13:18

is nominated for his performance in

13:20

American fiction. It's interesting, because I'll

13:22

ask actors about processing, you know,

13:24

how the, ultimately everyone's gonna put

13:26

together their own, you know, set

13:28

of tools or however they're gonna do it. You know

13:30

what I mean? There's no way to say like, well,

13:32

you do this, you do this, you do this, because

13:34

everyone's gonna do it their way. But, you know, from

13:36

taking from all these different people, you know, and adding

13:38

it to, you know, your natural ability, I

13:40

mean, what do you remember every time that

13:42

you go into a role, you know, how

13:44

do you start and, you know, where did

13:47

you get that information? Like, do

13:49

you look back at the people that guided you

13:51

early on? Is there any bit of information that,

13:53

you know, really stands out as like, that was

13:55

it? Well,

13:58

I mean, I think you put it in the chat. it all

14:01

in your pocket and you pull out as

14:04

needed and it all kind of merges together. So

14:07

many great influences and also other actors that

14:09

you work with. For example, you talk about

14:11

Shakespeare. One guy

14:13

who taught me perhaps

14:16

more than any other one

14:18

individual about performing Shakespeare is

14:20

someone you probably wouldn't expect

14:23

and that's Chris Walken. Yeah.

14:27

Yeah. Again, this

14:30

guy Joe Dowling gave

14:32

me a gig, you know,

14:35

Shakespeare in the Park, I think I

14:37

was 23 years old, whatever it was,

14:40

and Chris Walken

14:42

played Yago to Raul

14:45

Julia's a fellow. And

14:47

I talk about this with like

14:49

if I talk to young actors

14:53

now, you know, sometimes I'll go and

14:56

talk to a class and

14:58

I'll talk about Walken particularly

15:01

relative to Shakespeare because Walken's

15:03

from Queens, right? You know?

15:06

Yeah. Yeah. And

15:08

Chris... I saw the dance man. He was

15:10

like, yeah, badass. But when he does

15:14

Shakespeare, he's

15:16

not interested in any affectation, you

15:18

know. It's Chris Walken.

15:20

Zwaz, but you're not yummy. I mean,

15:22

you know, and

15:25

he personalizes that

15:28

language and just

15:31

kind of destroys any

15:33

unnecessary reverence for it,

15:35

which is particularly important,

15:37

I think, for an

15:39

American actor to claim

15:41

it in his own

15:43

voice and in his own rhythms and his

15:45

own tones. Right. And

15:48

he's one of, if not the smartest

15:50

actor I've ever had the

15:53

privilege of working with. And yeah,

15:56

you know, because there's nothing more annoying than seeing

15:58

an American actor do some kind of... of faux

16:01

fake ass British weird

16:04

half British accent when doing Shakespeare.

16:06

Sure. I mean, it's just

16:08

so unnatural and weird. People

16:12

we all know that we should be

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16:16

which is why I was excited when

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Please see the show notes for all

17:05

legal disclaimers. Back

17:09

in 2016, we had

17:11

Annette Bening on the show. That's

17:13

episode 769, and she's nominated this

17:15

year for Best Actress for her

17:18

performance in Nyad. You've been

17:20

nominated many times, and

17:24

I think you should win. Oh, really? Yeah.

17:27

Okay, get on the phone. No, that

17:29

would be wrong. I can't imagine. I can't.

17:32

Like, when I watch the, if and

17:34

when I watch the Oscars, just that

17:36

horrible feeling of like waiting to hear. I

17:38

can't imagine that. Yeah, it's a funny

17:40

feeling. And then you got to be happy for them. Like,

17:45

yeah, that's what, you know, it's always what

17:47

I'm watching. It's like that moment. We all

17:49

do. Yeah, that moment. Because that's the human

17:51

experience that's the most interesting. But I've never

17:53

seen anyone go like, oh, fuck. Actually,

17:56

I think there was an actor many years ago

17:58

who did like stand up and. throw his hat

18:01

on the ground and say shit when he lost. So

18:05

yeah, you see little glimmers of that.

18:07

I remember the first time I was

18:09

nominated, I was nominated in the supporting

18:12

actors category with a bunch of amazing

18:14

women. And at that- From

18:16

which movie? The Grifters. Oh yeah, yeah.

18:18

And the other actresses, we all got together

18:21

before the show was on the air, because

18:23

in those days actually they didn't turn the

18:25

cameras on, so everyone's talking and chatting. Right.

18:27

Again, the privacy thing. In a little group

18:29

and we're like, okay, whoever

18:31

wins next week takes all of

18:34

us out to dinner and they pay. Yeah.

18:36

So Whoopi Goldberg won. The

18:39

next, just like a day or two

18:41

later, I got a big bouquet of flowers with a card.

18:43

It said, meet at such and such

18:45

a restaurant at such and such a time. We

18:48

show up, one of us

18:50

couldn't be there, but we were all there

18:52

together. Whoopi brings out gardenias for

18:54

each of us on a tray and

18:57

chocolate Oscars. I'm

19:00

not kidding. And we all had dinner and it was

19:03

the most- Who else was there?

19:05

Do you remember? Beautiful Lorraine Brocko,

19:07

Diane Ladd, Mary McDonald.

19:09

Oh. Mary McDonald,

19:12

me, Whoopi. Lorraine

19:15

couldn't come to the

19:17

dinner, but Mary was there, Diane Ladd was

19:19

there, me and Whoopi. It was

19:21

amazing. That's sweet. It was. It

19:24

was like one of those moments of wow. Well, that's so nice

19:26

because that was like, again, it relates to the kind

19:29

of never ending appetite of the media that,

19:33

you know, everything that happens before and everything

19:35

like everybody just you had a privacy moment.

19:37

You had a private moment. We had a

19:39

private moment. If you and the other actresses-

19:41

Exactly. It was so meaningful. My parents

19:44

were with me at the awards show

19:46

and I remember it never occurred to

19:48

me. I didn't even think about it until

19:50

the very last minute. Oh, they could actually

19:52

call my name. Yeah. But

19:54

then they didn't and it was really quick. It was like,

19:56

no, they didn't. And also

19:59

that was like one of the first. Awards of the night.

20:01

So then it was over really quickly. And

20:03

I'm like, okay, well, who cares? I'm still

20:05

here. It's fun. What the hell?

20:07

In the supporting categories, we've had a bunch of this

20:09

year's nominees on the show, one of them from back

20:11

in 2021. This

20:14

was actually an amazing talk. It's

20:17

with Jodie Foster. It was during COVID. She was

20:19

at home. I don't know. It was just one

20:21

of those things that seemed to be

20:24

something that would never happen again in this

20:26

way in terms of conversationally. She's

20:29

nominated for Best Supporting Actress for NYAD.

20:31

I mean, the whole point of having

20:33

a production company was

20:36

to protect people, was to protect filmmakers,

20:39

to protect the process and to

20:41

protect the product. That's

20:44

why I called it Egg, that idea of

20:46

sort of your production company. Yeah. Yeah.

20:49

And then we made some, I don't think I'm the

20:51

greatest producer in the world, but we made some movies that I'm

20:54

really proud of. I mean,

20:56

it wasn't any film that we made that I'm not proud of, and yet at the same

20:58

time, it was clear when I finished

21:00

the 12 years of producing that, like, yes,

21:02

it was done. It was enough

21:05

of that. I thought Nell was a pretty

21:08

gutsy movie. It's really like

21:11

to do that role. I mean, your ability

21:14

or your willingness to

21:16

explore certain types of vulnerability

21:18

is pretty amazing. I mean,

21:21

like, it's

21:23

pretty terrifying for me

21:25

to even think about, really, all of them,

21:27

like the accused or Clarice or Nell

21:29

specifically, who was basic. I

21:32

mean, I know he felt a little insecure

21:34

about the accused

21:36

for these reasons, but did you feel

21:39

uncomfortable with the vulnerability in

21:41

retrospective Nell? I

21:44

think that I was, I

21:47

mean, obviously I was drawn to Nell

21:49

because I developed a play and, you

21:51

know, got

21:54

it off the ground and did all the years of work

21:56

that I did to get that on screen, but

21:59

I was scared. Heard of it. She

22:01

is the most unlike me have any

22:03

thing that ever played. And I didn't know that

22:05

I would have would it said? I think. That I was

22:07

scared of vulnerability and scared of. Being.

22:10

Somebody like that. Like I thought that if I. Was.

22:13

Like that I would just explode into a

22:15

pieces like paradise couldn't imagine with everybody round

22:18

am. I didn't really know how to create

22:20

a character. I was just so so confused

22:22

about how to create that character. And I'm

22:25

so the really. Was the greatest acting lesson

22:27

of my life. Where. I realized like. Oh

22:29

all I have to do is drink coffee

22:31

and show up. And it will

22:34

com because it's inside harm. There

22:36

wasn't any books and read sickly.

22:38

Or research like to do like I

22:40

had to just trust. That. When.

22:43

Somebody said action that I would be able to

22:45

be there and you had to let go of

22:47

a lot of who you. Are a

22:50

lot of the law? I am? the

22:52

construction of you? Yeah. I mean if you

22:54

don't I didn't mean that I didn't like

22:56

go into a transferring. Things: Breasts

22:58

sober, you exercise, you

23:00

exercise. Be unafraid. Alevis

23:02

of The Afraid and I. I really. Think

23:06

that. I.

23:08

Allowed myself to believe in crawls,

23:11

Swear and I'm You

23:13

have to believe in

23:15

trolls sometimes. And. It are

23:17

really matter whether real. Or not, it's because

23:20

the police's you know that's the Leblanc.

23:22

Nice. You know, when you're shepherding an

23:24

audience through an experience like that, you

23:26

have to be one hundred percent authentic

23:28

or the movie doesn't work. So there's.

23:31

There's. A lot of pressure that comes with that, but

23:33

there's also a lot of. Power.

23:36

See the fact that it's all writing

23:38

and your performance. And if it's real

23:41

a works and is not real, their

23:43

homework. And you can

23:45

see parts of like I like. I haven't done

23:47

a lot of movies, but I I imagine that's

23:50

as somebody who's on a lot of movies When

23:52

you look back at the ones where you can

23:54

say like or enough I was there. I don't

23:56

love their performance, you just you just let it

23:58

go right. And Munich. You

24:00

can get hung up on his yeah you too Well

24:02

you can get hung up. The

24:05

lot of years getting. Hung up at now? I don't. I mean, that's

24:07

something I learned. His child. Yeah, that as an

24:09

actor I just don't have control of it.

24:11

Enhances Go and their rituals to do that.

24:14

I feel like there's always a ritual about

24:16

that. You know I'm reading. Go When I'm

24:18

when I'm hanging out the window on my

24:20

way the airport after the wrap party Via

24:22

and Via. We wrapped at six am and

24:24

I like a small my shit my saying

24:27

and then there I am and out the

24:29

window and had undo the windows and I

24:31

realized. Half

24:33

of me just finish this massive

24:35

same right I can just finished

24:37

climbing Mount Everest? Yeah, So.

24:39

I'm like and then the other half is

24:42

like not quite back in the real life

24:44

of who I am and there's a little

24:46

fear about that. that's the most delicious moment

24:48

and that sites I feel like that's a

24:50

ritual of for me register. Like okay

24:52

yeah ya esta yeah. know that

24:55

that weird be in between the

24:57

release of being in between worlds.

24:59

Yeah where you don't have the anxiety of

25:01

like do a measure of you know can

25:03

I do it. Is

25:06

that? Does on in his two minutes

25:08

later on we do you plan on

25:10

the other some delays and need be

25:12

like to. Switch

25:15

anxiety that you don't measure up. You

25:17

know, like. That. Was

25:19

Jodie Foster from episode twelve a

25:22

one. A. Few weeks

25:24

ago we had another holdovers nominee

25:26

on the show day bind, Joy

25:28

Randolph. Was episode fifteen

25:30

twelve. That was fun. Like when you

25:32

got this part because I lived in

25:35

Boston for years old. Oh yeah it

25:37

was a is okay this yeah. Summer

25:40

school is a promise. Are easier to stomach

25:43

flu there for three months for you to

25:45

have more but as you have to go.

25:48

Burn. It. mostyn okay so

25:50

i guess they wanted us to live

25:52

like around where we were filming i'm

25:54

from the city so like i'm born

25:56

and raised in philadelphia lives in new

25:58

york now i'm here And I'm like,

26:00

I am a city girl. So

26:03

like too much quiet really freaks me

26:05

out. And it's actually not good for

26:08

like. For your brain? Yeah, it's too

26:10

quiet. Like I remember the

26:12

suburbs the first time of like

26:15

spending the night over like a friend's house. When

26:17

you were a kid? Yeah, and I

26:19

was like, what is that sound? And they

26:21

were like, it's quiet. It freaked

26:23

me out. It's scarier than noise. Yes.

26:26

Like when I, if I'm driving across country or something

26:28

and you just see a house set

26:30

back a little ways on its own. What are they

26:32

doing? Exactly. Can't be good. No.

26:35

Those spots always freak me out. Yeah.

26:38

There's probably just people sitting in there,

26:40

but the idea of it. Ugh, literally

26:42

makes me nervous. Yeah, so the silence

26:44

just fucked your head up. I was

26:46

like, nope, this is an intense movie.

26:49

We're filming it the same

26:52

time of year. Cold.

26:55

And this movie's taking place. Yeah. Possible

26:57

blizzards winter. So it was like, I

27:00

need to be in the city. Yeah,

27:02

because it's something about the isolation. Yeah,

27:04

it was already, I mean, you're already

27:07

shooting a three-hander in an abandoned building.

27:09

Yeah. It felt like

27:11

a very well done independence

27:14

to the film. Yeah, but

27:16

it was freezing in the buildings? Freezing because we couldn't

27:19

have the heat on, right? Because

27:21

the radiators were like, ding, ding, ding, making

27:23

all this noise. Another level of the pretending.

27:25

Woo! Yeah, yeah. But

27:28

did you get around Boston? Did you, like,

27:30

how did you learn? Yeah, because I lived,

27:32

that's where I stayed. In the city. In

27:34

the city. What part? I was

27:36

like on the first street or second street. I

27:38

could see the water or whatever their harbor

27:40

was. I don't know exactly. The Charles River

27:42

or whatever. Yeah, and like, I

27:45

found out like, in our

27:47

last five days, you know like when you're on location, you don't

27:49

know the area. And then it's like

27:51

that last week is like the most awesome week.

27:53

Because now you found the restaurant. Sure, yeah, yeah,

27:56

yeah, finally. I can wait here. Yeah, sorry, but

27:58

you know, I, yeah, so. It

28:01

was tricky for me because they

28:05

are speaking contemporary Boston

28:07

dialect. I

28:10

needed to both be around them and then also

28:12

be like, you know what I mean? My

28:15

dialect that I'm doing in the movie is

28:18

similar but also very different due to time

28:20

period. Yes. How

28:23

did you figure that out? With a dialect coach?

28:25

A dialect coach. She said that like 19, what was

28:27

it, 70? Yeah, so it was like late

28:29

1960s. We

28:31

went for late 19. The movie literally

28:33

takes place on like December 69 until

28:35

January 70. Oh

28:39

my God. And so it was

28:41

the biggest. So we did YouTube

28:43

videos of like interviews and looking

28:45

at like little clips of like,

28:48

yeah, the best thing is, I call it

28:50

YouTube University, but truly the best thing is

28:52

finding like news

28:56

reporters interviewing people. So

28:58

we was down there and they were talking about, you know what

29:00

I mean? That's a great, I lived down

29:03

there summer. Boston? Boston.

29:06

Come on. Hardcore. Really?

29:09

Hardcore Boston. So I'm looking at like

29:11

her Johnny Carson interviews. Wow. And that

29:13

was like my go-to gal.

29:16

And then the realtor who helped

29:18

me find the place, she was

29:20

just so lovely, hospitable, and

29:22

was like little Ms. Boston. And

29:25

I would just listen to her

29:27

all the time. And there were certain things that I

29:29

was like, can I just record you say this word

29:31

and this word? Because she was

29:33

older. So she had, she was a little bit closer

29:35

to me than like me going to Dunkin Donuts. And

29:37

I'm like, ah. Yeah. Yeah. Does

29:40

it get more intense as time goes on?

29:42

Is it fave like that? Like

29:45

what's the difference? The biggest

29:47

difference is that pacing. Yeah.

29:53

Because like

29:55

the rhythm and the K-D-O and the position, so you get

29:57

it. Like it's more so like the lilts and the rhythm

29:59

and the. the cadence. I lived there for

30:01

years. Yeah and I think it depends

30:04

when Bostonians are

30:07

upset, things get

30:09

like exaggerated, really bright, like five and

30:11

you're like really? Wow. You don't want

30:13

to stop it? You still go? I

30:16

used to live in an apartment in

30:18

Somerville and you know across

30:20

the street there was a drama all

30:22

the time, drugs or whatever. Of course.

30:24

And there was always like it seemed

30:26

like every other night there was a

30:28

girl on the street yelling and her

30:30

friend up says yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You

30:32

know like yeah. Yeah. I don't know.

30:34

Yeah. Yeah. I was this

30:38

dialect coach. Tom Jones. So

30:40

he's done like he's known to work

30:42

with Nicole Kim and on almost everything.

30:44

Really? Yeah. Did he make you that

30:47

like phonetic? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So

30:49

I'm a classically trained opera singer. So I

30:51

know IPA you know so in

30:54

a way of helping IPA. I

30:56

think it's called the international

30:58

phonetic alphabet. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like

31:00

the dip song. Yeah. From opera.

31:05

Well yeah and then when I went

31:07

to Yale they made us learn

31:09

it and my speech and dialect

31:12

coach was very frustrated with me because I'm

31:14

a musician first. Right. My ear is sharp.

31:16

Right. So I could speak

31:18

and she was like no write it down. Yeah. It's

31:21

like music theory. You know what I mean? Like. Theory's

31:23

the worst. I could do it all day but write

31:25

it down. The worst. I don't know what you're talking

31:27

about. Yeah. So they really but yeah no so he's

31:29

great. I met him on the set

31:31

of doing Billie Holiday because he worked with

31:34

Andrew Day for Billie Holiday and so

31:36

I was always like if ever it

31:39

could work out I would love to work with that

31:41

man. Yeah. And it was perfect because I did that

31:43

and then right after that worked with him on Rustin

31:45

to do Mahalia Jackson. So he's great

31:48

because he's so music based. Well you've

31:50

done a lot of time traveling. I

31:52

like time traveling. That's the best. Right.

31:54

Especially you know because some of those

31:56

things like the Billie Holiday movie and

31:58

Rustin is just so loaded with with

32:01

the tension and evolution of people.

32:04

Yes, yes, yes. One

32:06

more best supporting actress nominee, America Ferrara,

32:08

who was nominated for Barbie. She was

32:10

just on. That was episode 15-14. But

32:13

with the monologue, which is like literally

32:16

a page of dialogue, I

32:20

was like, okay, okay. We

32:23

didn't really rehearse it that way. We talked

32:25

about it a lot, but we

32:27

didn't rehearse it. What was the conversations about

32:30

mostly themes or like what

32:32

finding it? It

32:36

was a lot about we shared a lot back

32:38

and forth between like poetry

32:40

and songs and episodes of TV

32:42

shows and articles and op-eds, like

32:45

everything that kind of felt like related

32:48

to the monologue, we spent months

32:50

kind of sharing to kind of

32:52

have a common language around what

32:56

is the essence of what's happening here. And

33:00

then I remember closer to shooting, we had a

33:02

rehearsal at her house that she was staying at

33:04

in London and we sat on

33:06

her couch and like that felt

33:08

more like it was making

33:13

it incredibly personal,

33:16

which I don't know how to do it any other

33:18

way as an actress, but to make it deeply personal.

33:21

And that was about kind of us

33:24

relating it to us. She

33:27

and I and like how this plays in

33:29

our life. And

33:32

then on the day, I was like, what

33:36

is this supposed to sound like? It's

33:39

like, is this supposed to

33:41

be funny or is it just

33:43

trauma or is it fat? You

33:46

want me to keep it up? Like, is this supposed to

33:48

sound like everything else in Barbie Land? And

33:51

she really just like, was the only time

33:53

that looked at me and was like, I

33:55

just want you to find it. And

33:59

she gave me so much. much freedom. And

34:02

there were takes

34:04

that had hysterical laughing, there

34:06

were takes that had hysterical tears,

34:08

there were incredibly angry takes. And

34:10

you know, and like that, it

34:13

went so many different places. And then I

34:15

did it so many different times. And

34:18

I had no idea. I'm like, I'm

34:21

given, I'm literally like, and not because

34:23

I was like looking for, it

34:26

was just like, okay, I'll just drop into it and

34:28

see where it goes this time. It

34:30

wasn't like, no, I'll do a funny take. It

34:32

was just like, each time it

34:34

was just find a thread, pull

34:37

it and follow the thread. And they were all

34:39

subtly different. Very different.

34:41

And so when it was done,

34:43

I was like, she's

34:45

gonna have to decide and she's gonna

34:48

have to find it. And, and,

34:50

and I was, you know, very confident

34:52

that that she would and that it

34:54

was in there that it was, I think

34:57

the other question was like,

34:59

how does this like, how

35:02

does this fit into the rest of the

35:04

movie? Right? Well, I mean,

35:06

it seems to me like now before I

35:08

say that, but did you add stuff on

35:10

the day? We didn't

35:12

add stuff on the day. No, there was no

35:15

improv. We had talked

35:17

about certain, so you built it out,

35:19

we built some things in, we tweaked

35:21

and right, but it seems like from

35:23

months before she knew it was like

35:25

going to define the third act, if

35:27

not be the centerpiece of the movie.

35:29

Yes. When she first sent me the

35:31

script, she said, I

35:33

wrote this thing

35:35

that I'm calling Gloria's Aria. And

35:39

it's the moment that and

35:43

changes everything. So from the beginning,

35:45

she was like, so she

35:47

knew there's this thing and I want

35:49

it to be you. And it was just

35:51

felt like a, it just

35:54

felt like a dream. Like it's just

35:56

something I never expected. What's what's your responsibility

35:58

in the movie? is

36:00

kind of, I'm just thinking out loud now,

36:03

I mean, you are the human. Yes. Really?

36:06

Yeah. The only human. Yeah. And

36:09

your daughter. And my daughter, yeah, Ariana. Because

36:11

the corporate guys aren't human. No, they're like,

36:13

yeah. It's, that's, so

36:17

the whole movie hinges on your humanity in

36:19

a way. Yeah. I

36:22

mean, it, yeah, yeah, you're

36:24

welcome. You're welcome for representing all of

36:26

humanity. I,

36:30

it was challenging. You know what

36:32

was challenging was how hard

36:35

it was to not give in to the

36:37

energy of Barbie land. Like everyone's like dancing

36:39

and singing and Barbie land and everything heightened.

36:41

And I'm like, I don't want to do

36:43

that. And it's like, oh, I'm not here

36:45

to do that. I'm here to be the

36:47

human, warts and all. And

36:50

so yeah, there was, the harder, not

36:53

the harder, but the thing

36:56

I had to unlock for myself in

36:59

playing the character was here

37:01

is a woman who is a, has

37:05

a childlike imagination

37:07

and desire and a, and

37:10

a, and a, and a need

37:12

to play and suspend disbelief and

37:14

like believe that Barbie's coming for

37:17

her and taking her into the

37:19

real world. Like there's a childlike

37:22

yearning there. And she's

37:25

deeply, deeply human,

37:28

frustrated. She's a

37:30

real woman. She knows

37:32

the disappointment of life.

37:34

Challenges. Challenges. And

37:37

also, you know, her, her teen daughter

37:39

is like pulling away from

37:41

her and making her feel kind

37:43

of rejected. So, so it,

37:45

you know, all these very real human

37:48

feelings coupled with the

37:50

fantastical energy of a

37:52

child in one woman's

37:54

body. And When I

37:56

started out, that seemed like, how am I going

37:59

to play that? Yeah. And and

38:01

so he would. I realized this. The

38:04

I am That and

38:06

and. We're

38:08

just so not used to seeing

38:10

women get to be all those

38:12

things. Like that she

38:14

gets to be taken serious and

38:16

seriously and be real and n

38:19

be considered deep and smart and

38:21

all the things and get to

38:23

see. Play.

38:25

And childlike. Wonder

38:28

And and so it was

38:30

sort of like in a

38:32

way through. the process is

38:34

being Gloria finding from giving

38:36

myself America the permission. To

38:39

be more of what I am.

38:41

Yeah. That's. Great! So it was

38:44

a really. Deep.

38:47

Cerny. By changing. The.

38:49

Pilot or yeah, of course. And

38:53

finally to round out the supporting

38:55

actors, here's some of my talk

38:57

with Mark Ruff Hello from Episode

39:00

fifteen Thirteen has nominated for his

39:02

performance in Poor Things I think

39:04

what you respond to an end

39:06

don't know something can be played

39:09

a straight across the board pretty

39:11

much that were Lg the Guy

39:13

importance yeah yeah and ah to

39:15

drop down into into that really

39:17

drop down into his sort of

39:20

insecure young and and is is

39:22

he becomes empathetic. Sure how the

39:24

others a couple of the marble

39:26

narcissist was that's why swears because

39:28

you do feel empathy form know

39:30

why have done just realized a

39:33

bipolar must out with a hoax

39:35

would of his buddies doubling keep

39:37

showing of the my life all

39:39

the time. I mean I am

39:41

always playing these lights duel people

39:43

that have one side and in

39:45

another side and and the hulk

39:47

is like the it you know

39:49

that the absolute clear manifestation of

39:52

ah yes yes. And any of

39:54

process, he was humanness. Yes, we

39:56

had I, the. arena

39:58

so we hold onto In films,

40:01

you know, I mean you can you don't could do a

40:03

bit for so long Yeah, I

40:05

mean bits are fun and just pure comedy

40:07

sure it works really well Yeah, but um,

40:09

I mean I was looking for that a

40:11

little bit deeper cut. Have you have you

40:13

hosted SNL? No, wait Why not?

40:16

I'm scared They've offered it

40:19

to you. Yeah, I'll never be aspect. No.

40:21

Well, I don't think Lauren Michaels likes when

40:23

you say no Well, yeah, well,

40:25

I guess not but no I What

40:27

so what about that? I mean you've done theaters

40:30

just scared scared the living shit. I don't know.

40:32

Huh? I don't know It was uh,

40:35

it's not the live thing. Is it I

40:37

think it was it's a live thing

40:39

like reading off a cue card That's

40:42

hard. It scares me. Yeah, I'm a

40:44

little I'm dyslexic. I mean not gonna

40:46

lie. Yeah, you don't lie in the

40:48

show Yeah, so I'm really dyslexic like

40:50

how dyslexic like I'll just get I'll

40:53

lose where I'm at. I'm right page, right? Yeah,

40:55

and and you know, I'm

40:57

just when I hear about how that show

41:00

works I'm changing things at the last second

41:02

note. Yeah, so and I want to be

41:04

good on it, man I've been watching that

41:06

my whole life Like

41:08

I don't want to be the guy who's

41:10

the host who sucks on Saturday live, you

41:12

know No, like I owe Warren Michaels more

41:14

than that. Yeah, you know Well,

41:16

are you one of those people that you can

41:18

memorize this shit like pretty much quick? No, that's

41:21

the other thing Yeah, like I have the

41:23

double whammy like like I'm dyslexic and

41:25

I have a hard time memorizing stuff

41:27

Like I have to start so early

41:30

with any scripts. Yeah. Oh my

41:32

god But but that's not part of

41:34

the dyslexia. That's just you Right.

41:37

It's just me. That's one of those things

41:39

that you're talking about. You can't do anything

41:41

about the memory No, what am I gonna

41:43

do? Yeah, Ginkgo, you know now it's wasabi.

41:45

I chase all the memory shit. You try

41:48

I try everything Yeah, I've tried everything Across

41:51

the board, but so so what

41:53

happens but you how

41:55

do you do you read how many times you read the

41:57

script? Well,

42:00

you know, the most important readings like that

42:02

first one is and just and just like

42:04

a mercy the way I read Yeah,

42:07

I lit it for a one hour of

42:09

you know, 60 page script. Yeah 90 page,

42:11

right? It takes me like four hours to

42:13

read it Right. Okay. Well,

42:15

so that's interesting because your dyslexia enables you

42:17

a type of concentration Yes that other people

42:20

don't have yes and I fall in I

42:22

have to admit I have to envision Every

42:25

single scene like I have to

42:27

like see it. Yeah. Yeah to

42:29

understand where I'm at Yeah, right. So it

42:31

takes me it takes me longer than the movie

42:33

if you were sat down and watch the movie

42:36

to read Read it. It's a blessing, you know,

42:38

it's like all these things are blessings and their

42:40

curses That's wild because so that means in order

42:42

just to process the the the words, you

42:44

know You've got to attach the feelings and it takes

42:47

it. It's like a full

42:49

immersive experience. Totally I'm living in it if

42:51

I'm reading a book. Yeah, I can't like

42:53

read a script at the same time Otherwise,

42:55

I start mixing up the world, you know

43:00

Yeah, I can you have to see yourself in everything

43:02

I guess Kind of I

43:04

mean, you know that first read

43:06

is so essential because it's the first

43:09

time it's coming to you Sophie. Yeah,

43:11

right Yeah, yeah, yeah, and and and

43:13

if you can and you end

43:15

up like playing that first read I mean

43:18

in a lot of ways all the information

43:20

all of the spontaneity of that first read

43:22

all of your like the Imagination.

43:24

Yeah, yeah off all these connections

43:26

that ends up being the most

43:29

informative Read of the

43:31

entire thing. Yeah. Yeah, and then and then would you

43:33

just kind of then go scene to scene and lock

43:35

in? Yeah, yeah, if you do the read you got

43:37

it in your head. Yes, then I'll go back and

43:40

I'll do scene to scene See some sometimes, you know,

43:42

you want to know where where you came from and

43:44

where you're going in a scene You know, that

43:46

is the hardest thing about shooting. Yes. It's

43:48

like alright, so this is nine days before You

43:52

were bleeding. Yeah, and you like and

43:54

then you ran away from the

43:56

explosion and you run into this

43:58

room You know you're

44:00

it's just you really have to keep a

44:03

hand I think that's the only reason you

44:05

need a director or a script supervisor is

44:07

because you like what where are we? Where

44:10

where where was this? Okay, wait, wait,

44:12

wait, right, right, right? Okay. Okay. Oh

44:14

my god Yeah, cuz it but

44:16

do you ever watch yourself and go like I

44:19

know all the time. I Can't

44:22

I mean literally I'm watching myself and I'm

44:24

just sinking down in a chair. No one

44:26

knows but you hope

44:28

so I Going

44:30

back to an episode from several years ago

44:32

best director nominee your ghost Lanthamos was on

44:35

back in 2019 He's nominated

44:37

this year for poor things and also

44:39

has a best picture nomination for that

44:41

film as one of its producers What

44:43

was the first kind of mind-blowing moment

44:46

when you were watching a film and you're like, oh this

44:48

is I guess You

44:51

know Tarkovsky was one of the you

44:53

know first Filmmakers that I

44:56

got to learn through film school that I

44:58

didn't know anything about so I was in

45:00

a film history class yeah, so we learned

45:02

about it and then there's There's

45:06

some nice, you know during summer in Greece,

45:08

there's a lot of open air cinemas, I

45:10

mean, they're not as many anymore. Yeah But

45:14

they're beautiful open air cinemas in various

45:16

neighborhoods where you can you know, they

45:18

have a little table and you eat

45:20

something Yeah, you're outside. Yeah around it

45:22

by apartment buildings Yeah, and you watch

45:24

films so they would do like

45:27

retrospectives, so I would watch his

45:29

films and then John

45:32

Casavares was what was it about

45:34

Tarkovsky specifically that that you found

45:36

sort of engaging Well,

45:39

it was just for the first time

45:41

seeing like a different it was

45:43

like a different completed different medium

45:46

You know discovering like something new a

45:48

vision like how you know How can

45:50

images affect you in a different way

45:53

right doesn't have to be a fast

45:56

narrative and you know how poetic it

45:58

can be and how you

46:00

can lose yourself in it and

46:04

engage. But with your

46:06

own personality, there's a lot of

46:08

openness to it. Like you can

46:10

bring your own stuff into it

46:12

and see things and understand

46:16

things maybe in a different way to

46:19

how the person next to you is

46:21

experiencing the same thing at the same

46:23

time. Right. Now everything is not explained.

46:26

Yeah, exactly. And yeah,

46:29

the use of sound and image, it was

46:31

very different for me. And

46:34

then, you know, like watching right

46:36

after that, a John Cassavetes film,

46:38

which is very different style, for

46:41

me, in a weird

46:44

way, it has a very similar

46:46

effect, but through a different route.

46:50

Yeah, it's more

46:53

a human driven

46:55

space. Yeah. You know,

46:57

I mean, the few Tarkovsky

46:59

movies I've seen, it's

47:02

a lot of cinematic space, but with Cassavetes, there's

47:05

something heightened, but it's very engaged

47:08

with people. Yeah. But the

47:10

fact that it's so heightened also takes you

47:12

to a different level. Yeah, yeah. And although

47:14

it feels kind of more

47:16

realistic, it kind of transcends that, and

47:19

then you enter a different space again.

47:21

Yeah, and there's also that feeling like

47:23

these people are talking and the context

47:26

seems familiar to me, but

47:28

I don't know what the fuck is happening. What's

47:33

going on with these people? Yeah. I

47:36

think that's a good feeling, I guess. Again,

47:40

I enjoy, you know, watching films

47:42

like that. I guess what I'm trying to do

47:44

is create films like the ones

47:46

that I'd like to see. Because you watch

47:48

movies constantly? I

47:50

watch a lot of movies. I'm

47:53

not like an obsessed film buff

47:55

or anything, but I do, I

47:58

kind of tend to watch films. the

48:00

same films over and over again. Like which

48:02

ones? Like I feel safe. Yeah, yeah. Oh

48:05

yeah, they're familiar, they're like friends. Yeah, so and yeah,

48:08

I'd rather watch something that I really like

48:10

than, you know. Which ones have you

48:12

watched over and over? Like every time

48:14

it's like, like sometimes I'll just be watching TV or

48:16

cable and one will come on and I'm like, I'm

48:18

in. It doesn't even matter where it starts. I just

48:20

watched Casino again the other day. I don't even know

48:22

why. Because I have to. I've

48:24

seen that like quite a few times. Isn't that

48:26

great? Yeah, it's a great film. I watch how,

48:28

like I found that as I get older I'm

48:30

not able to watch the head and the vice

48:32

scene as much as I do. Like

48:36

I used to be able to watch it. You're more sensitive?

48:38

A little bit. Yeah? Yeah, it's

48:40

weird. I

48:42

know what's going to happen here. The weird thing

48:44

with me is like how

48:47

much affect it can get by those kind

48:50

of things being so

48:52

much you know on the inside and seeing

48:54

how these things are created. Even though you

48:56

know how it works. Yeah, you know how

48:58

it works. The difficult thing is

49:00

for me to be affected by this thing. And

49:02

that's when I know that a film

49:04

really grabs me because I forget about

49:06

the way it's made. You're

49:09

not sitting there going, oh I know how they do

49:11

that. I understand that shot. I understand that effect. Exactly.

49:14

When you're able to do that and

49:16

be someone that is actually making film,

49:18

then that's like very strong. Right. Oh

49:21

yeah. That's Yorgos Lanthimos from episode 992. So

49:25

okay, Barbie, which I

49:27

loved, is nominated for Best Adapted Screenplay

49:29

and both writers have been on the

49:31

show. Noah Bomback was on episode 388

49:35

and after him you'll hear Greta

49:37

Gerwig's most recent appearance from episode

49:39

1502. I'm sort

49:41

of fascinated with people that grow up in New

49:43

York. Like you're a real New York kid and

49:46

your parents were part of that sort of what

49:48

is I would say the mid 70s intelligentsia. I

49:50

mean you grew up in the thick of it

49:52

when Brooklyn was still just for those

49:54

kind of writers and not for punks and

49:56

kids. When

50:00

you were just, how old are you now? So

50:03

your mother was a New York Village voice writer

50:06

who I remember reading. She was

50:08

a voice, but she started writing for

50:10

the voice when I was more late

50:13

high school college so I didn't grow

50:15

up. Sometimes

50:18

people say, oh you grew up with a critic, but I

50:20

didn't really feel like, she kind of started doing it a

50:22

little later so it was more like, oh cool, we get

50:24

to see movies for free. Right. What

50:27

was she doing before that? She was a teacher,

50:29

she had written some short stories,

50:31

she was figuring

50:33

it out. A mom. Yeah, figuring it out,

50:35

right. She had two kids and she's like,

50:38

where's my life? Yeah. And

50:40

your old man was a writer. Yes. Did

50:42

you get along with him? I do get

50:44

along with him very well. But

50:48

yeah, he was a novelist and teacher.

50:50

Right. Also big film.

50:52

He wrote sometimes about film. But in the 70s

50:54

there was that thing where there was almost no

50:56

delineation between critic and writer, you were kind of

50:58

doing it all. Sure. Personality

51:01

driven in a way. Yeah. You

51:03

wanted to be known for that, you're that guy

51:05

that can write on everything. A general critic of

51:07

course. But

51:09

yeah, because I made this movie The Squid

51:11

and the Whale, which was kind of, had

51:15

some connection to my

51:17

childhood, at least in the very straightforward way. So

51:19

people sometimes assume I don't get along with my

51:21

parents, but I am

51:23

close to my parents. Was there a reaction to The

51:25

Squid and the Whale? I mean I had to refresh

51:27

myself because I'd seen it probably twice when it came

51:29

out. And I went to

51:32

the Wikipedia page of The Squid and the Whale and

51:34

just reading the plot line, I

51:36

kind of choked up at the end. I don't

51:39

know what the fuck is wrong with me this morning. This

51:41

is not the, like I don't do interviews this

51:43

early sometimes, I think I'm still a little raw.

51:45

That's wet. That would

51:47

be a... Well the way

51:49

they... I love the idea of like the Wikipedia

51:52

page will make you cry. It did.

51:54

Yeah. Because I'd forgotten how

51:56

the actual that exhibit at the Museum of Natural

51:58

History, how it was contextualized. in the movie. So

52:00

being reminded by it and the way they sort

52:02

of framed it, you know, that this was this

52:04

moment that your mother comforted you in front of

52:06

this horrible thing, which I remember seeing as a

52:08

kid. And it is horrible because it's kind of

52:10

dark and you can always see the... And

52:12

then you go back to it and I

52:14

choked up. That's all. That's great. I'm

52:17

thrilled to... We don't even need the

52:19

DVD anymore. You can just read the

52:21

page. Just read the plot line. Well, my

52:24

experience with the movie was

52:26

the first time I saw it, I was overwhelmed emotionally.

52:30

Like I have a thing about musicals and

52:32

I don't know if this is... Would you

52:35

call it a musical? But it's framed like

52:37

a musical. It could have been a musical.

52:39

I mean, easily. Yeah. It's almost like it's

52:41

half a musical. It wants to be a musical. Yeah.

52:45

And sort of the unity of everything and

52:47

the sort of the very specific

52:50

vision of it. But I don't know what

52:52

it is with me in terms

52:55

of how emotional I got in a

52:57

good way about just

53:00

the way the

53:03

women were talking. And

53:06

I can't even... Because it speaks to a

53:09

very odd thing and a very sad

53:12

thing about movies in general is

53:14

that you realize that in

53:16

mainstream movies that there's not a lot of women talking

53:18

in general. Right. And

53:21

so, but just the fact that there was

53:23

this conceit that enabled them to talk plainly

53:26

and curtly but

53:28

in a very emotional and

53:30

intellectual way was kind of

53:32

amazing. It felt amazing

53:35

on the set. I have to

53:37

say, this is like small things that felt amazing. When

53:40

we did even the scene with Margot

53:42

and Ryan and he said, asked to stay over

53:44

and she says, oh, but I don't want you here.

53:46

And she just said it so

53:49

like she's not being mean. She's

53:52

just saying exactly what she feels.

53:55

And it was sort of amazing. But

53:58

because it undermines the whole... expectation because there

54:01

is no sexuality in

54:03

a way because we all know that and you

54:05

make reference to it maybe twice that they don't

54:08

have genitals. No. But

54:10

so that interaction which is

54:12

naturally loaded with all

54:14

the baggage that anyone's going to bring to

54:17

it is able to have this honesty that's

54:19

devoid of sexual expectation or manipulation. Also

54:21

devoid of her needing

54:24

to placate any ego. That there's

54:26

no, it wouldn't even occur to

54:29

her. To

54:31

placate his ego. Like the whole

54:33

no, it doesn't enter it at

54:35

all. But that's

54:37

interesting because in those scenes the

54:40

male ego more so is intact.

54:43

Yes, yes, yes. Yeah, right.

54:46

So he, you know, she doesn't

54:48

acknowledge it or recognize it but

54:50

that's all they have. Yes, yes,

54:52

yes, yes, yes. The

54:54

Ken's are, I

54:56

say it's funny like actually this

54:58

is Ryan from

55:01

the very beginning, no one I, you know,

55:03

wrote the part for him but we didn't

55:05

know him and it was getting him the

55:07

script and then saying like, no, no, we

55:09

really wrote it for you. Like we wrote this for

55:11

you. Really didn't believe it? Well, no, I think

55:13

he did once he started reading it because his

55:15

name is all over the script. I mean because

55:17

we'd say Ken Ryan Gosling.

55:20

But it's so funny because he's so

55:22

like those guys, there's something about those

55:25

Canadians sometimes. They're very

55:27

funny. Oh, they're so funny. In

55:29

a very specific way. It's a

55:31

non-neurotic kind of presence. That's

55:33

true. And they're

55:35

very good at just isolating the

55:37

funny and locking in. Ryan Reynolds

55:39

the same way. Yeah. You

55:42

know, and it's not, there's no

55:44

kind of like, though

55:47

Ken had to struggle with self-awareness, the

55:50

comedic element of it is just

55:52

pure. It's pure and it's also based

55:55

in, I think he takes

55:57

it seriously which is part of what made

55:59

it... funny, which I had an instinct

56:01

that he'd do and then he did it so

56:03

completely. And he said, I think the first time

56:05

we talked on the phone,

56:08

he said he found his daughter's had

56:10

Barbies and then he said to himself, I think they

56:12

have a Ken somewhere. And then he found it like

56:14

face down in the mud next to a squished lemon.

56:19

And he's like, this is Ken. No

56:22

one cares about him. And

56:25

I was like, it was just instantly like, yes,

56:27

that's exactly right. So

56:30

he got the emotional universe right

56:32

away. There's

56:35

no point in fighting it. People, I'm

56:37

getting older and look, it would be nice

56:39

to turn back the clock, but we all

56:41

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word to get 20% off. Okay,

57:37

look now for our nominees from Killers

57:39

of the Flower Moon. First,

57:41

a great unique talk with director

57:43

of photography, Rodrigo Prieto, who's nominated

57:46

for best cinematography for that film.

57:49

This was from our recent episode, 1515. When

57:51

we got back into pre-production, I already

57:54

had all these notions and started

57:56

showing Scorsese images and then

57:59

shooting text. and you

58:01

know, seeing what he liked. And he was at the

58:03

moment so involved in the script and all that, that

58:06

he kind of was letting me run free for a little

58:08

bit with all these ideas

58:11

and stuff. And then he started getting inspired

58:13

too and throwing ideas as well. And we

58:15

tested all sorts of things from pinhole photography,

58:17

infrared, all sorts of things. Well it seems

58:19

like, yeah, it seems like, especially with the

58:22

Native Americans, that there was something about composition

58:26

that was reminiscent of

58:28

those documentary photographs of

58:31

the era. Yeah. You know,

58:33

that were sort of trying to

58:36

show examples of the pride

58:38

of Native Americans. I mean, I don't know what

58:40

you drew from in terms of still photography, but

58:43

did you? Oh yes, definitely. It's

58:45

interesting, you mentioned that because that really became

58:47

the basis of the look of

58:49

the film, not only in composition, but

58:52

I thought, okay, this movie

58:54

is a representation of the story of

58:56

the Osage and the FBI. At the same

58:58

time, we see in the film these newsreel

59:00

images, for example. And towards the end, we

59:02

see a radio show telling

59:04

that story. And stories

59:07

are also told with still photography. So I

59:09

thought that basing the

59:11

look on still photography

59:13

was a way of showing that we're

59:15

also telling a story that's being remembered.

59:18

So I decided to, this

59:20

is where we ended up, looking

59:22

at the beginnings of color photography. I

59:25

got deep into autochrome, which is a

59:27

technique to create color that the Lumiere

59:29

brothers invented in Paris, I think it

59:31

was around 1917. And

59:35

so I started testing

59:37

digitally, we shot on film, but digitally, emulating

59:40

the look of autochrome colors. It's

59:44

a system of creating kind of

59:46

transparencies on glass plate with

59:49

potato starch and dyes and all sorts of-

59:51

You were doing that? No, I

59:53

was emulating that. But I studied many

59:56

autochrome photographs. Yeah. Understand

59:58

what the color, what was happening. to the

1:00:00

colors, how grass looks, how an

1:00:02

apple looks, how sky looks. So

1:00:06

we created what's called the lookup table, LUT,

1:00:09

to emulate autochrome because it's also an

1:00:11

import from Europe, just like the white

1:00:13

people are imported from Europe, the descendants

1:00:16

of the settlers. So

1:00:18

everything that has to do with Ernest and

1:00:20

Hale and the white folk, I

1:00:23

use this LUT of autochrome. And

1:00:26

the Osage, the scenes that are

1:00:28

just Osage, we shot completely naturalistic in

1:00:30

terms of color. So

1:00:33

green is green and all the foliage

1:00:35

is the actual color and the

1:00:37

sky, you know, so it's naturalistic.

1:00:39

The Europeans are autochrome.

1:00:43

And so then, so I showed these

1:00:45

ideas to Scorsese. He liked it. I

1:00:48

shot tests. He loved it. And then

1:00:50

he said, so then what? How does the look evolve? So

1:00:53

I said, how about we pick a

1:00:55

moment in the movie where things shift

1:00:57

and we change to something

1:01:00

else? Okay, what would it be? And so I

1:01:02

thought, well, a technique we used actually in the

1:01:05

Irishman before was E&R, which is

1:01:07

a technique of printing film, motion picture

1:01:09

film, that adds contrast and

1:01:12

takes away color. And it's pretty

1:01:14

dramatic. So

1:01:17

we decided that once the Molly sister's

1:01:19

house explodes, Rita's house and

1:01:21

Hale breaks loose. Now, from

1:01:24

then on, we don't differentiate between the white people

1:01:26

and Osage. Everybody is

1:01:28

seen through E&R, high

1:01:30

contrast. It's harsher. The

1:01:33

image is harder. So

1:01:37

let's say the last third of the movie has that

1:01:39

look to it. And also the

1:01:41

lighting, I evolved into something sometimes

1:01:43

uncomfortable. Like Ernest, we see him several

1:01:46

times in hot light, either

1:01:48

from a light bulb or on the cells or

1:01:50

in the interrogation. He has this ugly

1:01:52

light coming from above or in

1:01:54

the courtroom. He's giving his deposition,

1:01:57

whatever you call it. direct

1:02:00

sun on his face, which is a movie light,

1:02:02

but it feels uncomfortable. It feels hot.

1:02:04

You know, it's like when you're in a place and

1:02:06

the sun's hitting your face, you're not comfortable. So

1:02:09

I tried to do that with his character.

1:02:11

Was the turn, it seems like around the

1:02:13

time of the fires too, that De Niro

1:02:15

set. Yeah, that's part of that too.

1:02:19

That whole sequence. And

1:02:21

also, precisely around there, things get, we

1:02:23

allowed ourselves to be a tiny bit

1:02:25

surrealistic, because it's kind of hell now.

1:02:28

Yeah, it looks like it. Developing everybody,

1:02:30

you know. How'd you shoot that? Was

1:02:32

that all intentional? Kind of, yes

1:02:34

and no. It was one of those things

1:02:36

where you design something and something else happens

1:02:38

that you didn't expect. In the case of

1:02:40

the fire scenes, we had two

1:02:42

cameras. One was shooting a wide shot with a

1:02:44

house and the fires and the people moving around,

1:02:46

just a wide shot. And then we had another

1:02:48

camera with a very long lens. So

1:02:51

it's like a, you know, like

1:02:53

a telephoto, like a telescope, let's

1:02:55

say, shooting just some of the

1:02:57

people through at the distance. So

1:02:59

I had fires, special effects fires with

1:03:02

pipe and gas and stuff, way

1:03:04

in the distance to create silhouettes of the people. And

1:03:07

then we had another layer between the camera and

1:03:09

those people that have another layer of fire through

1:03:11

pipes. And then I had close to the lens

1:03:14

off camera, just a pipe to

1:03:17

create heat waves. So

1:03:19

I knew that with these heat waves, there'd be a

1:03:21

distortion to the image. What I didn't

1:03:24

count on was that the second layer of

1:03:26

fire created a much stronger distortion to the

1:03:28

image. So we're actually

1:03:30

seeing through the heat waves and it

1:03:32

created this. First

1:03:36

of all, we couldn't get focus on the actors

1:03:38

in the distance. Then I asked the focus poll,

1:03:40

okay, pull to the distortion. So

1:03:43

move the focus closer and then suddenly it came

1:03:45

alive. So we were

1:03:47

actually putting focus on the heat

1:03:49

waves themselves. And that's what created

1:03:51

those weird silhouettes. Yeah, wild. Yeah.

1:03:53

The hell. It was, yeah.

1:03:55

And I remember when we were shooting, we

1:03:57

all were surprised and Scurces was loving it so much

1:04:00

that he kept shooting it and asking

1:04:02

the choreographer to move them this way

1:04:04

or that way and it was just

1:04:06

mesmerizing. Oh wow. And

1:04:08

he's got a very specific way of

1:04:10

choreographing violence. Yes. Right?

1:04:12

Yes. In fact, on The

1:04:15

Irishman, he purposely violence, he wanted to

1:04:17

shoot it and show it in

1:04:19

the same thing, similar thing actually on this film,

1:04:22

in a very dry manner

1:04:24

where it's maybe on a wide

1:04:26

shot. It's not

1:04:29

dramatic in your face and

1:04:32

sexy. The opposite.

1:04:34

It's ugly and

1:04:37

boom, it just happens in a second. Done.

1:04:41

So we see some of the murders of the

1:04:43

Osage in that manner where they're simple.

1:04:45

We don't do it close up, dramatic close up

1:04:47

of the guy in the gun, close to the

1:04:50

lens and the focus pulls to the trigger. None

1:04:53

of that. The sweat, none of that. It

1:04:57

makes it more disturbing in a way. Exactly.

1:04:59

From the distance. I feel so. Yeah.

1:05:03

Just last week, we have Lily Gladstone on.

1:05:05

She's nominated for Best Actress for her performance

1:05:07

in Killers of the Flower Moon. On one

1:05:09

hand, maybe rewatches the film

1:05:11

and people commit to the little

1:05:14

nuances in it, which kind

1:05:16

of bowl over you the first watch, which

1:05:19

honestly is kind of what most people

1:05:21

give any film is one watch. There

1:05:25

was this whole guardianship program set

1:05:27

up. Osage is being deemed incompetent

1:05:29

of handling their own money. Literally,

1:05:32

incompetent Osage is the title that was

1:05:34

on your paperwork. You had

1:05:36

to have a white person appointed to be your

1:05:38

guardian of your money. It

1:05:40

was of benefit to a lot of people to be married

1:05:43

to their guardian because they may like

1:05:45

just say, hey, honey, write a check for me to

1:05:47

do this. And Osage

1:05:49

women, they own everything. Oh,

1:05:52

that's so funny. It's sort of like musicians

1:05:54

today. Yeah, what

1:05:56

do you call a musician

1:05:58

without a girl? girlfriend. Broke.

1:06:01

Homeless. But yeah. But

1:06:05

your character, you know, as it evolves in

1:06:07

the movie, are acutely

1:06:10

aware of this. Yeah.

1:06:14

Acutely aware of some elements of

1:06:16

it. The thing that was a

1:06:18

big, like, clue

1:06:20

when that came from, I

1:06:23

was so grateful in my language

1:06:25

lessons to be given this story

1:06:27

by Christopher Cote. It's a

1:06:30

trickster story. Show me Gossi Coyote.

1:06:32

Yeah. Is one of their trickster figures. And

1:06:35

Coyote is the, like, hedonistic,

1:06:37

self-serving, like, fop. And

1:06:41

immediately, you know, asked

1:06:43

around the community and got permission to use

1:06:45

that analogy. And everybody's like,

1:06:47

oh yeah, absolutely, that makes sense. For who? For

1:06:50

Leo? For Leo. Yeah, I

1:06:52

was like, okay, Molly sees him as this coyote. She sees him as

1:06:54

this trickster. So that first scene,

1:06:56

calling him out for that, that was something that was

1:06:58

added in later. But it's kind of like, all right,

1:07:00

I got your number. I know how this story ends.

1:07:03

Right. Like, so

1:07:05

Molly, you know, finding this man who self-, you

1:07:08

know, he admits it, you know, I like to make

1:07:10

a party at night and sleep all day. I sure

1:07:12

do love money. I sure do love whiskey. Yeah. All

1:07:15

right, good. Yeah. Easy. Yeah,

1:07:17

I get you. Yep, I get you. I've got your

1:07:19

number. I can handle you. You'll enjoy

1:07:22

money, but you'll also write my checks for me.

1:07:24

Right. And now you look good.

1:07:26

So this works for me. Right. So

1:07:28

on both elements, there was like

1:07:30

definitely a chemistry and a playfulness,

1:07:33

but there was definitely a mutual benefit. And

1:07:36

then eventually there became real love there. And

1:07:40

you know, the elements. With the kids.

1:07:42

Yeah, that's a huge part of it, is you see

1:07:44

a man that is so committed and so much loves

1:07:46

his kids, there's no way you're going to suspect that

1:07:48

he would do anything to hurt them or you. Even

1:07:52

if you do suspect it, you know how easy

1:07:54

it is. And I think a lot of people

1:07:56

who are in relationships that are maybe not this

1:07:58

abusive to the point of being poor. poison to

1:08:00

death, but you know, these dynamics. That's

1:08:02

a very specific, that's a systemic

1:08:06

gaslighting. Yeah, absolutely. But that as

1:08:08

a metaphor is what it is.

1:08:12

Yep, absolutely. And as a

1:08:14

larger metaphor, committing to this love story

1:08:16

was a way of looking at it

1:08:18

as an analogy for the broken trust

1:08:20

that colonization, the United States government has

1:08:22

had with indigenous peoples. It's

1:08:25

been nothing but entering into trust relationships

1:08:27

that are supposed to be mutually beneficial

1:08:29

and then just the continual erosion of

1:08:31

our sovereignty, which is what you're seeing

1:08:33

happen in Mali. And

1:08:35

you know, we work within the systems that

1:08:37

we can. We maintain like our own communities

1:08:39

as much as we can. When

1:08:41

you're crippled by these situations of, you

1:08:44

know, guardianship or being wards of

1:08:46

the US government, of not having

1:08:48

true sovereignty, then there's

1:08:51

not a lot of option. There's not a lot of

1:08:53

other way out. You have to be very creative. You

1:08:55

have to be very subversive. You have to be very

1:08:58

together. And ultimately, you know,

1:09:01

where we're at now, though,

1:09:03

I think

1:09:06

contextualized differently, is

1:09:08

still directly related to that.

1:09:10

Yeah. And we're still

1:09:13

continually entering into trust relationships in

1:09:15

good faith. Yeah. You

1:09:18

know, it's like,

1:09:20

so this, yeah, on a microcosm, this relationship

1:09:22

felt like a good way to have this

1:09:24

conversation for what the film's really about. And

1:09:29

with Marty, Marty had seen

1:09:33

certain women? Is that what you... Apparently, yeah.

1:09:35

Yeah. Amazing. I'm not sure

1:09:37

at what point in the process he saw it, but I know that when he

1:09:40

did, he saw what he needed

1:09:42

for Mali. Because

1:09:44

somebody like Kelly made

1:09:46

a film the way she makes films. Right. You

1:09:49

know, I remember one of the films that I

1:09:51

studied and loved, still one of my favorite movies

1:09:53

to this day, is Adaptation. Oh, yeah. That's great.

1:09:56

Yeah. So good. I

1:09:58

watched that recently. Yeah. Oh, and

1:10:00

it still holds up. Every performance, every

1:10:02

character, the writing, like the meta qualities

1:10:04

in the writing that are so funny.

1:10:07

Like I just, I studied, I've seen

1:10:10

that film so many times and I would just

1:10:12

study, study, study it. And

1:10:14

I remember Nicholas Cage as,

1:10:17

you know, Charlie, talking about, you

1:10:19

know, why can't a story just be about flowers? And

1:10:21

I remember thinking that when I was watching, I

1:10:24

was like, yeah, I'd watch that movie. Then years

1:10:26

later, here's Kelly Reichert, I was like, oh, this

1:10:28

movie is kind of just really about

1:10:30

horses, kind of really just about ranching. Yeah,

1:10:32

yeah, yeah. But it's saying everything.

1:10:35

Right. I think

1:10:37

like maybe the neuroses that, of

1:10:40

a writer that Kaufman was kind of

1:10:42

tongue in cheek handling in

1:10:44

that film is what gets in

1:10:46

the way of just the observational quality a

1:10:48

lens has. And just the trust that your

1:10:51

audience, if they've sought out this kind of

1:10:53

film, they're gonna make those connections themselves. Yeah,

1:10:56

and Nicholas Cage's relationship with that tape

1:10:58

recorder. Okay, okay. Hunched

1:11:00

over. Dawn of time, we're starting here. The

1:11:05

way that he was able to

1:11:07

sustain this comedic timing with himself,

1:11:09

that's just like, every actor's

1:11:11

dream is to play their own twin, I

1:11:13

think. Yeah, he's kind of an awesome character

1:11:17

in real life, I imagine, as well. I

1:11:20

have not, but I love watching his

1:11:22

interviews. Like when Unbearable Weight of Massive

1:11:24

Talent came out at South by, I

1:11:26

remember he was, just went on and

1:11:28

on in one of his

1:11:31

interviews about, yeah, I'm wearing

1:11:33

this because I wanted to look like shortbread, because

1:11:35

now I just really want to eat shortbread. He's

1:11:40

a, I'd say. Sorry, you're a work of art.

1:11:42

Yeah, an authentic weirdo. Yep. Yeah.

1:11:45

That was Lily Gladstone, episode 15-16. And

1:11:48

finally, folks, a talk with a nominee who

1:11:50

sadly won't be at the award show this

1:11:52

year. Robbie Robertson has nominated posthumously for Best

1:11:54

Score for Killers of the Flower Moon. And

1:11:56

I had the chance to talk to him

1:11:58

back in 27. episode

1:12:00

781. This is the repository

1:12:03

of all my life shit. It's just nice

1:12:05

to take it all in. Yeah. And

1:12:08

you know it either

1:12:10

all starts out in a garage or

1:12:13

ends up in a garage. Yeah

1:12:15

mine ended up in a garage. That could

1:12:17

go either way too, the ending in a

1:12:19

garage. That could either be a good thing.

1:12:22

But you didn't start in

1:12:24

a garage. Well there was garages

1:12:26

you know and this

1:12:28

house that the band found

1:12:31

up by Woodstock. The pink house.

1:12:33

The pink house. Big pink we

1:12:35

called it. Yeah. And in the

1:12:38

basement. Yeah. Which I've I

1:12:40

don't even know that I've ever said this before. Yeah.

1:12:43

But when you went down into the basement

1:12:46

it wasn't just the basement it was

1:12:48

a garage too. Oh really? Yeah cuz

1:12:51

it was a big door that could

1:12:53

open and you could drive a car

1:12:55

in. Okay. But we never did because

1:12:57

we wanted to use that space. Right.

1:12:59

Making music instead. It's funny that that I

1:13:02

think that environment that and I was thinking about

1:13:04

this and we'll go back in time in a

1:13:07

minute but like it seems to me that

1:13:10

whatever happened in that house you know with

1:13:12

Dylan and with you guys seemed to set

1:13:14

the standard for how

1:13:16

to make that kind of music. For it

1:13:18

to how to make connected sort of earthy

1:13:21

you know music that evolves you know as

1:13:23

a group. I mean it seems like now

1:13:26

there's a whole resurgence of people aspiring to

1:13:28

be what you guys were. You

1:13:30

know at the time when

1:13:33

we did the basement tape.

1:13:35

Yeah. And this idea of making

1:13:38

music in your home. Right.

1:13:42

And and that that

1:13:44

was special because I'd had no real

1:13:46

expectations to it so

1:13:48

it had such a relaxed atmosphere.

1:13:51

Yeah. And it even was like

1:13:53

nobody was supposed to hear this.

1:13:55

Right. And wasn't Dylan it's sort

1:13:57

of like he was sort of

1:14:00

kind of considering his mortality after an

1:14:02

accident and just kind of hanging out at

1:14:04

the time. You

1:14:07

know, he had had this accident

1:14:09

and he'd hurt himself pretty bad.

1:14:11

He had to wear like

1:14:13

a neck brace for quite a while.

1:14:16

But after that, and when

1:14:18

we found this house, it

1:14:20

became like the clubhouse,

1:14:23

you know, where guys would go

1:14:25

every day and hang out. Like

1:14:27

who? Like a street

1:14:29

gang. You guys. But were there

1:14:31

other people, hangers on, people around? No, not

1:14:33

some, but not too much. And

1:14:36

it was a place to go every day,

1:14:38

like a workshop or something. It

1:14:41

turned into this. And this had been a dream

1:14:43

of mine. If we could

1:14:46

only have the clubhouse where

1:14:48

we would go every day and we

1:14:51

could lock ourselves away from the world

1:14:53

and create something that

1:14:56

we are meant to do. We

1:14:59

are on a mission to do. And

1:15:01

when I took Bob out

1:15:03

there to see it, at

1:15:05

first, you know, because he'd only made

1:15:08

music really in recording

1:15:10

studios and things. And

1:15:12

when I took him out and showed him

1:15:14

this, all of a sudden

1:15:16

I could see a light went off over his

1:15:18

head. And he was

1:15:21

like, can you really make music

1:15:23

in here? And can you put it

1:15:25

down on tape? All

1:15:27

of this was a revelation. And

1:15:30

at that time, nobody was doing

1:15:33

this. It was really

1:15:35

unusual. And it was something

1:15:37

that I had in the back of my

1:15:39

mind that I thought Les Paul did. Oh

1:15:42

really? Les Paul. When he was screwing

1:15:44

around with the electronics. Right. He

1:15:47

had a house. Right. And he

1:15:49

had like an echo chamber in the side of a

1:15:51

cliff or something. I thought,

1:15:53

that's the way you do it. And

1:15:56

when I heard his records, the records

1:15:59

they... he made with Mary

1:16:01

Ford, they didn't sound like

1:16:03

anything else. That how

1:16:05

do you make a record that

1:16:08

doesn't sound like anything else and

1:16:10

it's in your own environment? Whoa.

1:16:14

So, anyway, I'd been talking to the other

1:16:16

guys in the band and to

1:16:18

Bob about this for a long time. And

1:16:21

when we found that place, it

1:16:23

was like, this is it. This

1:16:26

is Valhalla. This is where

1:16:28

we can go, hang out,

1:16:31

and create and do something that has

1:16:33

nothing to do with the rest of

1:16:35

the world. That's the late

1:16:37

Robbie Robertson on episode 781. If

1:16:40

you want to hear any of these full

1:16:42

episodes, ad free and also get more Oscar

1:16:45

talk from the two bonus episodes we're doing

1:16:47

this week, subscribe to the Full Merit. Just

1:16:49

click on the link in the episode description

1:16:51

or go to wtfpod.com and click on WTF+.

1:16:55

Tomorrow's a regular episode with comedian

1:16:57

Rory Scovel. All right? Okay.

1:17:01

I'll talk to you later. Bye.