0:00

Warning, this podcast contains spoilers

0:02

for actually nothing this time, but references

0:06

to a Foundation season

0:08

two airing now on Apple TV Plus.

0:25

Hello.

0:27

My name is Jason Cepcio and I'm Rosie

0:29

Night and welcome to Extra revision

0:31

of the Crooked Media podcast, where we dive

0:33

deep into your favorite

0:35

shows, movies, comics, and pop culture.

0:37

In this episode, Strike

0:40

Watch. Then we're heading to previously

0:42

on for an SDCC scene report

0:45

and a little talk about that Barbenheimer box

0:47

office.

0:48

In the Hive mind as an.

0:49

Interview with writer, producer director David

0:52

Eskoya, and in the Nerd Out, some thoughts

0:54

on Indiana Jones coming

0:56

up.

0:57

Strikewatch the

1:00

historic double Strike continues,

1:04

and some updates here. Dwayne Johnson,

1:08

who we have been tough on on this podcast,

1:13

has has

1:16

come up big. We talked about

1:19

in the previous episode how important

1:21

it is that the most powerful and successful

1:24

members of the WGA and SAG

1:26

have been support have been in this fight to

1:29

support, you know, some of the

1:31

people who are in the lowest rungs of the ladder. And here is

1:33

Dwayn Johnson who has come through with a

1:36

historic seven figure

1:38

donation to the SAG

1:40

Fund per variety during

1:43

the COVID nineteen pandemic. The sag

1:45

after Foundation work to provide

1:47

financial relief to many unions one hundred and

1:49

sixty thousand members via the foundation's

1:51

Emergency Financial Assistance Program, which

1:54

will again be used during

1:56

the strike, and just

1:58

in recent days it has been that Dwayne made

2:01

a truly historic

2:04

donation to the fund.

2:05

Yeah.

2:06

I think like you made a great point when

2:08

we talked about the strike for the first time, which is like, this

2:10

is the thing that makes us love comic books.

2:12

It's like the people who are most powerful, who have the power,

2:15

looking after the people who don't. And in

2:17

this reporting there was something really interesting which

2:19

I think sums up the power of why a union

2:21

like this when it works like this is really

2:23

really great.

2:24

Because it was saying that Courtney b.

2:26

Vance, who's the Sagafro Foundation President

2:29

and executive director Sid Wilson, actually

2:31

wrote a letter to the twenty seven

2:33

hundred of the union's highest earning

2:35

actors being like, look, we need money, Like

2:38

you're rich, give us money, And I'm like, that's

2:40

exactly how it should be. And I love that

2:42

Dwayne was the one who stepped up and was like, well, I'm given

2:45

seven figures, so who else wants to jump in,

2:47

So I'm ready to see more rich

2:49

people giving money to this, because, like you said, this is

2:51

for the workers who are going to be in

2:53

a situation where they're not going to make healthcare this

2:55

year. The twenty six thousand dollars that

2:57

they need to make annually is not going to happen. I

3:00

could even be if they were still working, that might have happened

3:02

anyway, with the way residuals are.

3:03

So it's really great this is happening. I love to see

3:06

it.

3:08

George R. R.

3:09

Martin, who our good friend, George R. Martin,

3:11

has came in on the strike the King.

3:14

In his latest entry on his

3:16

not a Blog blog, he

3:20

has weighed in on the strike, calling it quote

3:22

the most important of my lifetime. He continues,

3:25

no one can be certain where we go from here,

3:27

but I have a bad feeling that this strike will be long

3:29

and bitter. It may get as bad as the infamous nineteen

3:32

eighty five strike.

3:33

Though I hope not now. Of course.

3:35

George has been a

3:37

member of the WGA since the

3:39

mid eighties, and

3:44

he also continues with updates about

3:46

How's the Dragon quote How's

3:48

the Dragon is shot? Mostly in London, a

3:50

little bit in Wales and Spain and various other locations,

3:53

which is why filming is continue. The actors are members

3:55

of the British union Equity, not

3:57

SAG after and though Equity strongly

4:00

supports their American cousins, British

4:02

law forbids them from staging a sympathy

4:04

strike. If they walk, they have no protection

4:07

from being fired, breach of contract or even sued.

4:09

That's terrible, terrible, terrible

4:11

law.

4:12

It's really strange too because England has

4:15

a history like as George actually says in

4:17

this blog, one of the major two parties is called the Labor

4:19

Party, is built on the idea

4:21

of protecting workers, but that has changed as the parties

4:24

moved more centrist. And it's really interesting

4:26

because the subways in England we call it

4:28

the Tube, right, they have an incredibly

4:30

powerful union, the Transport Workers,

4:33

and that the fact that their union

4:35

is so powerful has kind of been used to turn

4:38

union sentiment in the public.

4:40

To be like, oh, well, they're getting it and you're not.

4:42

When the big reminder that we all have about

4:44

unions is if you see someone in

4:46

a job and you see them getting

4:48

good benefits and going on strike to get

4:50

better pay, and they get paid.

4:53

Better than you.

4:53

Don't ask why they're getting that, ask

4:55

why you're not going on strike to.

4:57

Get it, you know.

4:58

So it's kind of that thing. Yeah, I really

5:00

I was actually even shocked. Even though I knew the

5:02

union protections weren't strong, I didn't

5:05

realize they were. You can get fired and

5:07

sued by HBO Max if you walk not

5:09

strong.

5:10

Absolutely absolutely nuts.

5:12

Also, wait, I just want to say as well, because this is a great

5:15

This shows how scared the studios are right

5:17

now.

5:18

George R.

5:19

Martin, his overall

5:21

deal with HBO was suspended. That's right

5:23

June first, which they're doing with a lot of people,

5:25

but you don't expect him to be one of them.

5:28

I think they're doing it, I will say,

5:30

it seems like they're doing it with everybody. They're taking

5:32

the opportunity to not pay people. Now

5:36

there's a there's

5:38

a significant calendar date coming

5:41

up in August sometime, which is

5:43

the I'm

5:45

not sure of the exact day, but

5:48

it will be the point at which contractually

5:51

the studios have the opportunity to cancel some

5:53

overall deals completely wow by

5:56

claiming force majures. This happened

5:58

last time and you would back them

6:00

to do it this time.

6:02

You know. One of the talking points you.

6:03

Hear is, oh, so who actually

6:05

likes this early part of the strike because

6:07

they want to save money, they want to get rid of deals

6:10

that aren't performing.

6:11

I'm sure George will not.

6:12

Be among those who are whose

6:14

deals are canceled. But yeah, I think everybody

6:17

is not. Is everybody

6:19

on an overall is not that cost

6:21

check Claire, and some of them may be

6:24

maybe done away with in the

6:26

coming weeks.

6:28

SAG approval.

6:29

SAG has granted approval for thirty

6:31

nine productions to continue during the strike,

6:33

including two films from the artistic

6:39

Darling studio A twenty four. The

6:42

list includes two projects from A twenty

6:44

four's the independent

6:46

production company. The titles

6:48

are Mother Mary starring Anne Hathaway and

6:51

MICHAELA. Cole, and Death of a Unicorn

6:53

starring Paul Rudd and Jenny Ortega. So

6:56

basically, SAG has

6:58

kind of signaled that indie

7:01

projects that aren't you know they

7:03

were, they're going to like

7:05

forensically look through their accounting.

7:08

But anybody that's not taking

7:10

money from the studios and not is not going

7:12

to be distributed by any of the major players. It's

7:14

truly an indie movie. And as

7:17

in the case with A twenty four, studios

7:20

who agree tacitly

7:22

to the WGA and SAG's

7:24

demands and says we'll go by, we'll go

7:26

by what your proposals are. Now,

7:29

we'll just willingly do that are

7:31

allowed to continue shooting. So if a twenty

7:33

question is if A twenty four can do it, why can't the rest

7:36

of them? Yeah, we'll see where this goes.

7:38

Yeah, what what's have you you been on the picket

7:40

line? Obviously, what's the feeling been on this, because

7:42

I've seen it's been quite controversial. Some people

7:44

are like, yeah, A twenty four are doing it, that's amazing.

7:47

But some people are also like, well, this is giving

7:49

the biggest name actors paid

7:51

work when people are out on strike who

7:54

are kind of the lowest

7:56

rung workers who are really need that money.

7:59

It it's a little bit of a wait and see.

8:02

I think people, I think

8:04

everybody understands the idea, which

8:07

is one, support the independent

8:10

producers out there are truly independent film

8:13

number one, which is just a good thing

8:15

to do, and number two try and create these

8:17

divisions by saying, hey, if

8:20

you if you agree to our proposals,

8:22

we can serve them and right away like who wants

8:24

to who else wants to come in? You know, that's how they

8:27

notably the agency campaign from

8:29

a few years ago, which I won't delve into,

8:32

but part of how that eventually

8:34

resolved is you

8:37

know, the studios one by one saying

8:40

okay, fine, we'll work with you if you

8:42

were working, if we end so, if they can peel off

8:45

some of the members of the AMPTP, that's

8:47

all for the good. That said, I think that there

8:49

is there's

8:52

also some Okay, well, let's see how this goes,

8:54

because I thought the idea was we're not working,

8:57

so we'll see.

8:58

Yeah.

8:59

The ampt released a twenty

9:01

three page document a few days

9:03

ago. We're recording this on July

9:05

twenty fifth. They released

9:08

this document on July twenty first, and it

9:10

had their version of

9:13

the I guess last few negotiation

9:16

rounds with sag AFTRA, their

9:19

proposals and counter proposals. You

9:22

can find that in various places,

9:24

but the Hollywood Reporter had a good write up of it. But

9:27

there's one thing that I wanted to So one

9:29

of the things that of course has been a sticking

9:31

point is the

9:33

the issue of revenue sharing, you

9:37

know, aka residuals, which

9:40

is how many writers and actors

9:44

you know, keep the lights on when they're not you

9:46

know, in the months often you

9:48

know, significant amount of months

9:50

between jobs. And the

9:53

aptp's position is that they

9:55

don't want.

9:56

To pay them exactly.

9:59

They don't want to those anymore. You

10:01

know, they say, well, the business has changed, you

10:05

know, tech has come in Netflix,

10:09

Apple and Amazon, and they have different

10:11

cultures. Their culture is based on secrecy. They don't

10:13

want to give up the streaming numbers. Any

10:15

kind of revenue sharing sharing and

10:17

the success of a project would necessarily

10:21

involve the sharing of the viewership

10:23

numbers, and they don't want

10:25

to do that. So in their

10:28

kind of counter to SAG's

10:31

revenue sharing proposal, the

10:34

AMPTP statement says, quote,

10:37

the union is proposing that performers share in the

10:39

rewards of a successful show without

10:41

bearing any of the risk. The union

10:43

proposes to share in success, but not in

10:45

failure. That is not sharing one.

10:47

This is the way it's been done in the

10:50

yes, of course, like the actors

10:52

are not putting up their own money and

10:54

mortgaging their houses so that like, you

10:56

know, the project can go through that

10:59

said throughout the entire

11:01

history of TV, this is basically

11:03

how it's been done.

11:04

It's been understood.

11:05

Yes, of course the studios are making the capital

11:07

investment, but anything that succeeds

11:10

beyond a certain

11:12

set point, then it's time to share

11:14

in the wealth. And the AMPTPI

11:17

now says, well, that's the old thinking, We're not going

11:19

to do that anymore. I don't think

11:21

that the unions should accept

11:23

that. But number two, this idea that

11:26

because the actors are

11:28

not taking on a

11:30

form of like scaled capital

11:33

risk is actually completely wrongheaded.

11:37

First of all, a

11:39

lot of this is a fight for

11:42

actors and writers to be able to one make

11:44

their year, which has been which is

11:46

something that's gotten harder and harder. Making the year

11:48

essentially means making enough money

11:51

through the guild through guilt

11:53

work to qualify for health insurance.

11:56

Anybody who has struggled to figure

11:58

out, like, where's my health insurance coming

12:00

from? How am I going to get it? Can I keep it?

12:02

What am I going to do?

12:03

Understands that like living

12:06

in a world in which one you're trying to make

12:08

it as either an actor or a writer, and two trying to

12:10

figure out, okay, do I need to get some

12:12

kind of straight job in order to get benefits.

12:15

You're taking a risk in your life just

12:17

going out of the house without health

12:19

insurance and trying to get it one.

12:22

Two the amount of A large

12:24

part of this struggle is about the amount of free

12:26

work that goes on in this industry,

12:29

whether it's actors spending

12:32

their own money and time to send

12:34

in a self tape, which you

12:36

know, part of the complaints that actors

12:38

have is these self tapes are becoming more and

12:41

more intricate with like lighting and

12:43

like scenes, and now it's like not everybody

12:45

has the resources to do this. All

12:48

of which is to say actors and writers take on significant

12:51

risk. It's not capital risk in the same

12:53

way that the studios do, but they

12:55

take on plenty of risk, and they should

12:57

absolutely share in the success of a project when

12:59

it succeeds.

13:01

Yeah, completely. And also I mean that

13:03

you talk about self tapes. I also saw that

13:05

there's been a movement for people to get paid

13:07

for auditions because legally and contractually

13:10

you are supposed to be paid for an audition already,

13:12

but that hasn't been happening for a really

13:14

long time. So even these base protections

13:17

that you would hope these actors

13:20

are getting for this alleged small investment

13:22

of time that they're giving.

13:23

The studios haven't been paying them anyway.

13:26

That's right.

13:28

Well, the strike continues and

13:31

we'll be covering here on Extra Vision up next.

13:34

Previously on.

13:43

It was SDCC just

13:46

gone, our first SDCC

13:48

since Twilight took

13:51

over hall H and invented hall H culture.

13:53

That there hasn't been a major

13:56

studio presence inside

13:59

the convention because I will say, when

14:01

you go to San Diego, they always have activations,

14:04

they have things that people can do without tickets.

14:06

You can sign up online, and there were still a

14:08

few of those. I believe FX turned up. I believe

14:10

Hulu turned up with that kind of stuff. But

14:13

inside there were no major

14:15

hall H panels. There was no DC movies,

14:18

there were no Marvel movies. There

14:21

weren't even any big TV panels aside

14:23

from a couple of little premieres where

14:25

there wasn't any talent apart from maybe a director

14:28

who was able to turn up. But I have to

14:30

say San Diego was bumping. It

14:32

was incredibly busy. Tiffany

14:35

Babb, who's an incredible pop culture journalist

14:38

and comic book journalist at pop Verse

14:40

did a great write up about how she spoke

14:42

to lots of different retailers. Yeah I read

14:44

that, Yeah great, like Silver Sprocket, one of our

14:47

favorite indie publishers. They said they had their biggest

14:49

preview night ever, and preview nights usually a

14:51

pretty quiet night, mostly.

14:53

For industry folks.

14:54

I spoke to multiple different exhibitors

14:56

who said it was the biggest year

14:58

they'd had. Qu Bok was also quoted

15:01

in pop Verse, So basically what happened.

15:03

Funk oh, I believe historic.

15:06

Also the Marvel booth.

15:07

They had like a Marvel merch booth there

15:09

that apparently did really really well. Basically

15:12

what happened was because people were not

15:14

in the whole h Q lines

15:16

and there were not six rounds and people they were.

15:19

They were on the show floor, and

15:21

you know what I have to say, they were also in the panel rooms.

15:24

I did three panels, all

15:26

of which were busier than most panels

15:28

I've ever done, but the one that really stuck out

15:30

to me, and I think this is representative of a lot of

15:32

people's experience. I did a panel with Webtoon

15:34

called a Golden Age for Women in Comics

15:37

and the idea is was to highlight

15:39

that women have always been making comics, but they've just

15:41

been raised from the narrative and now

15:43

thanks to webtoon, thanks to incredible indie publishers

15:46

like Black Jerse Press. The publisher Jimmie

15:48

Larrouser was on the panel, women

15:50

are being recognized for making comics

15:52

even though they've always been here. That is

15:54

the kind of panel I've done at San Diego before

15:56

about like disability or about different aspects of representation.

16:00

You get an eager crowd, but not a

16:02

necessarily packed room, right.

16:04

Those rooms can hold like two three hundred people.

16:08

Our Golden Ajor Women in Comics panel,

16:10

which did feature Rachel Smythe

16:12

who makes Laura Lympus, who is arguably one of the most famous

16:14

cartoonists in the world, so I'm giving her credit for how

16:16

many people came as well. But that was

16:18

a one in, one out panel. It was standing

16:21

room only and they had a Q outside.

16:23

To let people in.

16:24

And I started to hear that other

16:26

people there was a Queer Horror panel and

16:29

that was the same thing where they had a Q outside.

16:31

So what happened with haul h not being

16:33

there is it drove people into the show

16:35

floor. It drove people into the convention center,

16:39

and the coolest thing is people.

16:41

Just were excited. The vibes were great.

16:44

I didn't see anyone who was disappointed

16:46

or who wasn't prepared for the fact this was going

16:48

to be comics focused, and it

16:51

was just a really wonderful experience. Also,

16:53

I will say there was a lot of great strike

16:56

support. There was lots of cosplayers with strike

16:58

signs. Actually,

17:01

like Duncan Crabtree Island

17:03

came on Saturday to speak on

17:05

a panel about AI and voice

17:07

acting and kind of advocate for the

17:10

voice actors, and there were people

17:12

giving I know, Danny Fernandez, one of our friends of the Pods,

17:14

she was giving out a lot of strike pins.

17:16

And one of the coolest things was they had these

17:19

signs that were like SAG signs, and

17:21

they said support the strike, carry

17:23

this sign, and people would just hand them off to each

17:25

other, so you'd see like Deadpool carrying it,

17:27

and you'd see and it really kind of opened

17:29

my eyes to the fact we obviously care about

17:32

this stuff, like deeply, not just because we're involved

17:34

in it, but because it's something.

17:35

That we care about.

17:36

We care about it because we love comics. We care about it because we

17:38

love TV and movies. We want people to get paid. I

17:41

don't think the studios realize

17:44

how widespread that

17:46

mentality is. That you can have a

17:48

kid in a comics accurate Deadpool

17:51

cosplay because there was a lot of comic accurate

17:53

cosplay, because people didn't want to do

17:55

movie cosplay because they felt like

17:58

they were supporting Struck studios. It

18:00

was really heartening, not

18:03

only to see the love for comics, but also to see

18:05

people recognizing that they understood

18:07

why this SDCC was different. It

18:10

was really cool, and I would say if I was in charge

18:12

of SDCC, I'd be having

18:15

very different meetings with the studios next

18:17

year, like how can you help us if you want

18:19

this platform, we don't need it,

18:21

But if you want the platform of being on hall

18:23

Ah, how much are you going

18:25

to invest in the convention? How much can

18:27

we use this your resources

18:30

to make this an even better place for comics,

18:33

for the museum, for artists who can't afford

18:35

an artists Alli table. Because the truth is hall

18:37

H not being there did not impact

18:40

how that show was aside from

18:43

positively for smaller press and artists

18:45

ali people who felt like they

18:48

especially by the end of the weekend. I heard that

18:50

Saturday and Sunday, it was almost

18:52

like on the first two days folks

18:54

were walking around kind of being like, Okay, I've never

18:56

really been on the show floor. What am I going to buy? Like budgeting

18:59

out you kind of do. And apparently

19:01

Saturday and Sunday those sales just went

19:04

absolutely crazy.

19:05

That's great, that's great, and it's

19:07

you know, it's interesting. Now I'm kind of reflecting

19:09

on the fact that certainly in the

19:11

hall H era, I

19:14

have never never once

19:17

heard someone talk about

19:20

the kind of hall Ah culture and

19:22

immense lines and what it takes to

19:24

get in there with any kind of warmth.

19:27

No, you know, it's like I don't want to queue out

19:29

that for two nights.

19:31

Yeah, it is only

19:34

complaints about the slow, whole rigamarole

19:36

of getting through that. And it's

19:38

nice to see that

19:43

there was almost like a turn of the clock back

19:45

moment of uh, this

19:48

the energy and the community is still

19:50

here. It's not going anywhere. And

19:53

to your point, maybe there is a conversation

19:55

about like what the relationship will

19:57

be in the future between the studios

20:00

in comic Con, and hopefully that

20:02

conversation can make the experience

20:04

of comic Con kind of just better.

20:06

Yeah, And you make a great point, because

20:09

I think something that was really special. So Dorian

20:11

Parks is really great who's a host

20:13

and a kind of journalist in the same space to us. He

20:15

moderated the Spider Man two panel,

20:17

which was about the video game, right. But

20:19

what was really interesting was so many it

20:21

was in hallh and so many people who would never

20:23

have got to experience hall Ah got to experience

20:26

it because that wasn't necessarily the.

20:28

Two day wait. So I think there's a lot

20:30

of lessons to be learned.

20:31

And the thing that made me the happiest was my

20:34

worst case scenario was like people won't

20:37

come, or they will come and they'll

20:39

be really mad, and it will affect the people who've

20:41

invested thousands of dollars, who are indy cartoonists,

20:43

who know that this is the time that they can make

20:46

they can make the bag that we can that can

20:48

be the one show you do that really makes you money.

20:50

And it turns out it was the complete opposite. And

20:53

it was just an absolute delight to be

20:55

there. And because people were on the show floor and there weren't

20:57

Hallah lines, San.

20:59

Diego was actually p a chill to walk around.

21:01

So yeah, it was.

21:02

It was overall just wonderful, and I'm hoping

21:04

that we learn a lot of great lessons and kind

21:07

of see them come into play more as

21:09

we go.

21:09

Ahead.

21:10

Up next, let's quickly

21:12

talk about the insane

21:15

Barbenheimer Weekend.

21:16

Wild.

21:19

Okay, so barbon Heimer Weekend

21:22

has come and gone. Barbie

21:25

is currently at one hundred

21:27

and sixty plus million and climbing.

21:31

Oppenheimer as well as around

21:34

eighty million ish and climbing.

21:37

Both movies are handily

21:40

beating their projections, and

21:43

the movies are back.

21:44

Folks.

21:45

Here's my manager,

21:47

Kenny, who you know has been endlessly

21:50

roasting me because I was not able to

21:52

get into eger movie.

21:54

I was not I try, I really tried.

21:57

My Usually my usual move is Friday

21:59

morning or Saturday or Sunday

22:01

morning, I'll take in a Matt nae whatever

22:04

the new nostalgia, nice Matt wonderful

22:06

matinee for whatever the new movie is. I

22:09

tried every movie

22:11

time for both movies, and

22:14

there was like nothing except for

22:16

like the front row seats

22:18

at at Imax, where you're sitting basically.

22:20

You can see one foot of the screen.

22:23

And you're my fucking

22:25

vertebrae will snap in half

22:27

because like my head is completely like looking

22:30

up at the top of the screen, and

22:32

I just couldn't do it.

22:34

But two huge movies obviously

22:37

a marketing bonanza and one of

22:39

those things a counterprogramming

22:43

coup in which both projects

22:46

have been burnished by this

22:49

entire scheme, part of which is just

22:52

like the overall pettiness of Warner

22:54

Brothers. So you know, one of the things that

22:56

has happened in the past that led up to

22:58

this is Christopher Nolan,

23:01

among many filmmakers, was upset with Warner

23:03

Brothers move to take movies

23:06

out of theaters, only

23:09

give them a short run in theaters and then put them

23:11

right on Max.

23:12

Right.

23:12

He's a lover of movies. He wants movies

23:14

to be seen in the movie theater, and evedn't like that, so

23:18

he left his longtime

23:20

home Warner Brothers, and

23:23

as a kind of like pettiness, I guess

23:25

they were like, oh, yeah, well, we're gonna have our

23:28

movie a Barbie

23:31

Open opposite Oppenheimer when

23:33

you do Oppenheimer at your new place.

23:35

And guess what happened. Both movies

23:37

are succeeding through this because the

23:40

Barbenheimer phenomenon has

23:42

become a thing.

23:43

Yeah, I mean it's I read a really interesting

23:46

interview with like the head of global

23:48

marketing from Warner Brothers, and it used sometimes

23:50

I'd never really heard of. So there's like, you know, obviously

23:52

paid advertising, right, which is paid marketing,

23:55

which I have to say, Warner Brothers did an unbelievable

23:57

job of Like they did the weirdest, coolest

23:59

shit, like the they

24:02

did an architectural Digest video

24:05

tour of the Malibu dream.

24:07

Hat like Barbie Dreamhouse, Like they.

24:09

Just did really weird stuff that kind of hit in

24:11

the ship post era of the Internet that we're really

24:13

in. But he also talked about earned

24:16

marketing, and that's essentially what

24:18

Barbenheimer comes under the umbrella of

24:21

which is an organic Internet

24:24

like fun like people getting excited. And

24:26

I mean, this is one of those wild

24:28

moments where like neither of the studios saw this

24:30

coming. Warner Brothers had it Barbie

24:32

tracking, They had Barbie tracking at seventy

24:35

five mil, and Oppenheimer was tracking

24:37

for Universal at.

24:38

Like fifty milt.

24:39

These movies made five hundred million

24:42

dollars globally over this week.

24:44

I was half a billion dollars.

24:45

That doesn't exist without

24:48

all the people online who made

24:50

memes. It doesn't exist with people like without

24:52

people like super Yuky making t shirts

24:54

in the Barbie font that say do you guys ever

24:56

think about dying? It doesn't exist

24:59

without it. Incredible artists who made Barbenheimer

25:02

mash up posters, like one of our Discord

25:07

fans and friends, like Rodrigo. He

25:09

runs this film magazine called Layered Butter,

25:11

and they did a Barbenheimer poster that went totally

25:13

viral and it's now basically used as

25:15

almost as if it was an original official

25:18

piece of art that both the studios made.

25:20

They didn't.

25:21

Neither of them could ever have imagined that

25:23

these two ridiculously juxtaposed

25:25

movies would create this fandom.

25:28

But I also think that that comes from Nolan

25:31

being an auta, Gerwig being an auta.

25:33

Yeah, and this kind of hilarious dichotomy

25:36

between like this serious talkie three

25:38

hour biopic which I always should never

25:40

have been able to make eighty million, that's a superhero

25:43

movie cat truly insane.

25:45

And then Barbie Witz should be.

25:49

A flop that later finds a cult following,

25:51

kind of like you Know Gem and the you Know Gem

25:54

and the Hologram.

25:54

So that has found less of.

25:55

A cult following, but something like Josie and the Pussycats,

25:57

right, like that's kind of where people expected

26:00

Barbie to land. So Barbie is now the

26:02

biggest opening weekend of the year,

26:05

beating Super Mario, which by the way, had a ridiculous

26:07

opening weekend, also beating Guardians

26:09

of the Galaxy one three also now the biggest

26:12

opening weekend ever for a female director,

26:14

beating both Wonder Woman and Captain Marvel,

26:16

so beating two superhero movies. Also

26:19

in the international box office, Barbie

26:21

almost made two hundred million dollars over this

26:23

weekend. And I have

26:25

yet to see Barbie because try seeing that in San

26:28

Diego on SDCC weekend. People were

26:30

not busy at SDCC and today

26:33

obviously bargain day at AMC. Good

26:35

tip there if you want to save some money seven dollars. A team

26:37

of I looked going with friends

26:39

from who work in the OC, and I looked from

26:41

every theater from like Irvine down to la

26:43

and it was almost impossible to find a ticket

26:46

that was not in the front like

26:48

three rows. Like this movie's going to keep

26:50

making money. The drop for

26:52

Barbie from Saturday to Sunday

26:55

was nine percent, which

26:57

is basically unheard of, and Oppenheimer's

26:59

was also really low by my understanding.

27:02

So I think that the Barbenheimer weekend

27:04

is over, but the Barbenheimer summer is

27:07

not over. Like sorry to the Haunted Mansion,

27:09

but you're not touching either of these movies

27:12

this weekend.

27:13

You know, you just know that right now

27:16

there is an entire

27:18

floor of people, yeah, who work

27:21

for like Apple Studios marketing, who

27:23

are trying to figure out who

27:26

Napoleon's Barbie is exactly.

27:29

This is what I'm saying, we too, How

27:31

upset do you think every studio

27:33

is right now that they can't be on the phone to

27:36

like every screenwriter and every

27:38

director being like, so do you want

27:40

to do like Street Sharks?

27:42

Is it like the way?

27:43

Can you think of like an A twenty four take on like

27:45

Street Sharks? Those meetings would

27:47

be happening if the strike was not on, And I know they're

27:49

all sitting there stewing in their juices, writing

27:51

things like Gritty Polly Pocket

27:54

like trying to find ways that

27:56

they can do this. I love that what is Napoleon

28:00

is Barbie?

28:01

We can we Russian

28:03

Indie, Carmen san Diego.

28:09

You know, I feel like those conversations

28:11

are happening, and you know, this is one of those

28:14

things where the real truth is.

28:15

Is there really a lesson here?

28:17

It's hard to know because counter programming has

28:19

always worked.

28:19

This is organic. You can't really replicate it.

28:21

But the lesson that studios are gonna

28:23

learn is like toy movies, but

28:26

with like an auto director and

28:29

also like I guess, biopics can

28:31

make a lot of money now if they're programmed against

28:33

something like that.

28:34

So, yeah, I did see.

28:35

I don't think it was a coincidence that yesterday

28:37

they announced that Ryan Reynolds is rebooting

28:40

Biker Mice from Mars.

28:42

So I think we're gonna see that.

28:44

What we've been seeing as the IP rush for

28:46

comics, I think we're gonna

28:48

see that moving back to toys, which it hasn't

28:51

been for quite a long time.

28:53

So that'll be interesting.

28:54

I'm sure we're gonna get many terrible toy movies,

28:56

but maybe some good ones too. Yeah.

28:58

I made listen. T re Formers is out

29:00

here. G I Joe has been out here,

29:03

Lego has been out here. The

29:07

toy movies have been doing well.

29:09

It'll be interesting, but this

29:11

is the first one that's coming.

29:13

This is a culture. Culture.

29:15

This isn't the top fourth opening weekend of

29:17

all time, only beaten by the

29:19

Force, Awakens, Infinity War and Ending Game.

29:21

So now toys are in that. They're in

29:24

that superhero.

29:25

Movie space and it beat

29:27

Transformers. Dark of the Moon is the biggest movie based

29:29

on a toy. So yeah, toy movies

29:31

are back, baby for.

29:33

Better or for us?

29:35

Up next to our interview with David

29:37

Escort.

29:51

Welcome to the Hive Mind, where we explore topics

29:53

with an expert guest. Today, we're thrilled to welcome

29:56

writer, showrunner, and director David Eskoya

29:58

to discuss his career, creative process,

30:01

and foundation.

30:02

David, thanks for joining us.

30:04

My pleasure. I'm

30:06

I'm a fan and I

30:09

was happy to return the favor because you co

30:11

hosts that other podcast you

30:13

and I did, and

30:15

it is.

30:16

A delight to do it. So

30:18

how is your summer going?

30:20

Well? You

30:24

know, I was

30:26

I was filming something and we

30:29

got shut down because of SAG

30:32

and I was over in Europe and

30:35

we got shut down early Saturday

30:37

morning, and then I booked

30:39

a flight on my phone right there

30:42

and went back to my hotel and packed. Had

30:44

got on a plane about five hours later, and

30:46

then I picketed in

30:48

La yesterday in ninety five degree. But

30:51

I'm look, it's

30:54

that it's a crazy, once

30:56

in a lifetime situation and

30:58

completely justifiable. But

31:02

I'm also you

31:05

know, after spending the bulk of my last

31:07

four years over in Europe, I'm

31:09

really grateful to have this time with my family

31:11

and not during a pandemic. So

31:13

that's this over lining for me.

31:17

Yeah, tell it.

31:18

Could you tell us about that? Obviously,

31:21

this this strike is a is

31:23

another bit of complexity and challenge

31:25

on top of everything that's

31:28

and it impacts everyone industry

31:30

wide.

31:30

But like what the

31:32

show that.

31:33

You were making is so grand

31:37

and complicated. You

31:39

just mentioned that you were in Europe for a lot of the last

31:41

couple of years. Tell us about some of the challenges

31:43

that you went through producing that.

31:46

I mean, it foundations

31:50

the most complicated project

31:53

I've ever worked on. And

31:56

don't we don't film it in sort

31:58

of a volume of VFX box like some

32:00

of the shows out there. We film

32:04

more than half the show on location. In

32:08

season one filmed in six different countries. I

32:10

think season two filmed in five

32:13

different countries. We

32:16

do what we call crossboarding, meeting like the

32:18

schedule gets we don't film

32:20

one episode and then another. Everything gets put in

32:22

a blender. It's incredibly difficult,

32:26

and it would have been difficult

32:28

even without a pandemic

32:32

and multiple strikes. But it's

32:34

it's just we just keep

32:36

you know, we had the initial lockdown

32:39

and then season two lockdown

32:41

wasn't happening. But we actually had

32:44

many more delays because

32:46

of COVID than in season one because in season one

32:49

everyone was in a bubble, so called bubble.

32:51

We would take over hotels and we would charter

32:54

flights and it's

32:58

just like the hits keep coming and coming and coming

33:00

and coming, and it's it's awesome.

33:03

It's crazy because it's the shows

33:05

so weildly ambitious and

33:08

and I'm so grateful to have made the first two

33:10

seasons. But all of the changes,

33:12

the seismic changes that are happening in your industry

33:15

are like, I worry there the very things

33:17

that will make a show like ours not

33:20

possible anymore.

33:21

So who knows, you know, Yeah,

33:24

I mean there's lots of things that

33:27

from basically from the very inception

33:30

of adapting foundation, you're

33:32

in a situation where it's going to be a challenge

33:35

because there's many things over the years that have been

33:37

called unfilmable, but this is probably

33:39

like one of the most unfilmable

33:41

US unfilmable things.

33:44

So like, what was the origin

33:47

of you wanting to adapt

33:50

it or what was your origin with Asmov's

33:52

foundation and kind of how this

33:55

came to become a TV show?

33:57

Okay, I'll answer

33:59

that, but I I should qualify I'm

34:01

speaking to you in the capacity as

34:03

a director, and because

34:07

I've directed episodes two and three of the show,

34:09

and not only am I allowed

34:11

to promote in that capacity, I've been encouraged

34:14

to promote by one of the two

34:16

guilds I'm involved in.

34:18

But what was it like? I mean,

34:20

I was given the book

34:22

by myn'er do well father when he

34:25

was thirteen or I was thirteen, not

34:27

him, he was thirteen. He said, this is the greatest

34:30

science fiction book of all time. You should read

34:32

it, And I didn't

34:34

read it because I was angry at him. And I think I read

34:36

it in my twenty my twenties, and I got

34:38

some of it, didn't understand

34:40

what the big deal was. We read it in my thirties

34:44

and then over the years

34:46

because for the first two decades

34:48

of my career is writing almost exclusively

34:50

features. I was offered the

34:52

opportunity to adapt it a couple of times, once

34:57

with Warner Brothers and once with Sony.

35:00

Even then I just thought, oh, people

35:02

were thinking, oh, we want to do a trilogy of

35:04

films, and I just didn't think it was

35:06

possible to condense

35:10

all of that. It's anthological in nature.

35:12

A lot of the stuff's been strip mined, you

35:15

know, by Star Wars and Dune, and how

35:17

do you make it new again? And so

35:21

I said no a couple of times, and

35:24

over the years, just like everyone, i'd hear, oh,

35:26

this person or that person is trying to adapt

35:28

it. And also I'm

35:30

not sure I was a sophisticated

35:33

enough writer to have adapted it earlier

35:35

on in my career. But then

35:37

maybe I don't know. Five years ago, streaming

35:40

had started and people were suddenly tackling

35:43

these big novelistic projects and saying,

35:45

okay, now you've got at least ten hours or

35:47

twenty or thirty. And then it seemed

35:49

like it might be possible. And I'd

35:52

had enough weighty adaptations

35:55

under my belt to be crazy enough

35:57

to try. But what was crazy was I was

36:00

I was waiting into adapting foundation at

36:02

the same time, I was waiting into adapting

36:04

Sandman, but another famous

36:07

lady,

36:07

and I

36:12

just thought it was just so surreal.

36:14

And I flirted with Sandman for more than

36:16

a decade as well, and it was they both sort

36:19

of came together at the exact same time.

36:21

And then it just was a race. I was meant

36:24

to run either one of them, and it was just a racist

36:26

to which one was going to be Greenland first and

36:28

Foundation was so then after working

36:31

the initial adaptation with

36:33

Neil and then Alan Heimbury, allen Heimberg took

36:35

over that. But I don't know did

36:38

that answer your question? I got lost in my answer,

36:41

by the way. I heard you Rosie

36:44

describe me as a friend of the pod on

36:47

one of your podcasts

36:49

the other day, and I'm I'm

36:52

honored to be considered a friend of the problem, although you

36:54

and I have never spoken prior to this.

36:55

So you know what Jason's friends my

36:57

friends friends.

37:00

Yeah.

37:00

Yeah, you

37:02

mentioned that you didn't think that maybe you were a

37:05

sophisticated enough writer.

37:06

Yeah when you first.

37:08

Some people would argue, I'm still.

37:10

Not, by the way, but

37:12

what do you what what is it about

37:15

your writing evolution that you

37:17

think is it made you able

37:19

to take on that project at that particular

37:22

time.

37:22

What it changed, what you learned?

37:25

I think that you

37:28

know, I guess over my career

37:30

I started to become the sort of

37:32

one of the go to guys to adapt to

37:35

take on like weighty IP or

37:38

complicated IP, and

37:41

and I

37:43

just remember I think one

37:46

of the things that changed was when Kris

37:48

Nolan and I were working on Batman Begins,

37:51

and we

37:53

we had this very methodical approach

37:56

to Batman in which we would

37:58

try to we would just before we came

38:00

up with a story, we spent weeks

38:02

just talking about what makes Batman Batman

38:05

and so writing lists of the things that we felt

38:08

were like essential Batman

38:10

tropes and then things

38:13

that don't make Batman Batman. And then this

38:15

was crazy at the time, but we flew to New

38:18

York and we met with all the editors of DC

38:20

for three days and we asked them the same questions

38:23

and they said, no one in all

38:25

the decades prior to that had ever even

38:27

asked d C what

38:29

made Batman Batman? And we just

38:32

thought it was a no brainer to do it. And so

38:34

so then we before we even

38:36

came up with the story, we just thought, Okay,

38:39

have we identified the core DNA

38:42

of this thing, do we have it right?

38:45

And the editors at d C, you

38:49

know, Paul Levitt and people like that. At the time, even

38:52

Neil Adams, who we talked

38:54

to, felt that we

38:57

had gotten it right, and then we

39:00

started building our story. And so

39:02

what's amazing to me is how many

39:04

people don't do that. And so that is

39:06

an approach that I've just applied and

39:09

everything I've worked on over the last two

39:11

decades is just try to figure

39:13

out, can I, you know, what makes

39:15

this thing unique? And can

39:17

I tell a story that doesn't betray those

39:20

elements? And it sounds

39:22

simple, but it's amazing.

39:26

You know, I've talked about this before,

39:28

but like I had this feeling like

39:30

with a lot of superhero adaptations that

39:33

they'll think about, Okay, what villain are we going to use

39:35

and then build a story around it, as opposed

39:37

to figuring out what makes

39:41

you know, you

39:43

know, superhero X superhero X and then figuring

39:45

out what's the right villain to tell that

39:47

story. So Chris and I did not decide

39:50

we were going to start with rajah Ghul or

39:52

the Scarecrow. We were going to

39:54

tell this story about Batman

39:57

overcoming his fears or bris

39:59

Wa and overcoming us fears and having all these

40:02

daddy issues, and so fear

40:04

led to Scarecrow, and daddy issues led

40:06

to Raja goal was you know, one

40:09

of the only villains. Yeah, that was like

40:12

more parental and so I

40:15

guess the approach was just very holistic

40:18

in that way. And we applied the same things

40:20

to Salman. And in the case of sam Man, we had

40:23

gaming with us and

40:25

and Alan and I said, we spent like

40:27

three or four days just saying, Okay, you

40:29

know what makes sam Man Samman? What do you think?

40:34

And I did something similar with Robin Asmav Isaac's

40:37

daughter on Foundation.

40:41

Yeah, it's I was gonna ask, that's really interesting

40:43

that you brought out because I feel

40:45

like, often as comic book fans, people who

40:47

love this stuff, comics have been seen since you

40:49

know, they first in the eighteen hundreds when it

40:51

was strip comics or whatever, to you know,

40:54

the Worthm Trials, they're seen as like low brow

40:56

and disposable that for kids, you know, that's

40:58

still something people see. So it's

41:01

kind of incredible to you talking about how adapting

41:03

comics taught you how to

41:06

adapt these kind of huge epic

41:08

sci fi stories for prestige.

41:10

Were there any other kind of things that you

41:13

learned from adapting so many

41:15

superho stories and comic books that helped

41:17

you when it came to adapting something like this that takes

41:19

place over thousands of years, the way that

41:21

comics kind of have that modern mythology

41:23

of going over many many centuries.

41:26

Do you think, Yeah, I do think that

41:29

it's funny if you go to

41:31

classic comic book storytelling,

41:33

right, I think comic

41:36

books are the closest to serialized

41:39

TV storytelling is almost any other

41:41

art form, right, because you've got the

41:43

individual episodes which are akin to the individual

41:46

issues, and then you've got these

41:48

arcs which would be akin to like

41:51

the season, and then you've got like the

41:53

super arc, right, you know. Yeah,

41:56

And so because

41:59

I spent so much Si'm reading comics as a kid,

42:01

that's that's just the way structurally,

42:03

I think. So with regards

42:05

to sam Man and Foundation, we definitely think

42:07

about, Okay, this is a serialized

42:10

story, but is each episode? Can each episode

42:12

be a complete meal? And then how does

42:14

it fit within the season, and is there a beginning

42:16

and middle and end to the season, And

42:18

then how does it fit with a superstory,

42:22

and that's definitely something I

42:24

picked up from, you know, Dennie

42:27

O'Neill or Chris Claremont or you know,

42:29

Frank Miller or something like that.

42:34

Can I ask you about the

42:36

there anything, Jason.

42:40

We'll see whether or not.

42:44

Well, since we're on the subject of comics, A few

42:46

years ago a letter that you wrote

42:48

to editor and writer at Marvel,

42:51

Mark Runwald, who's then in charge of the

42:53

Captain America book, emerged

42:55

and it was you basically, uh,

42:58

giving notes on on a particular

43:01

storyline and the challenges the character

43:03

faced in that particular era

43:06

mid eighties, you know, Reagan

43:08

and the White House. Did

43:11

you always take comics that seriously?

43:14

And were you was it in your mind to be a

43:17

writer at that point, because surely,

43:19

I mean it's not very many people write

43:22

a like seven hundred word letter

43:25

to the editor to Marvel Comics.

43:28

Yes, and yes, Tom those

43:30

questions. I mean. I also have a letter in

43:33

the Alan Moore run of swamp Thing American

43:35

Gothic, which y, yeah,

43:39

in which I incorrectly guessed

43:42

at what was behind like all the various

43:44

sub monsters that were growing

43:46

out a swamping. But yeah,

43:49

I've probably got

43:51

about I

43:54

mean, I will say this, every letter I wrote

43:56

up printed, I probably have about seven.

43:58

Wow.

43:59

Wow, that's a solid

44:01

run.

44:02

Yeah. Yeah, but I was I

44:04

was, you know, growing up in Michigan going

44:07

to my local comic book store, and

44:09

and I I,

44:12

you know, I don't know, from the time I was

44:14

about fourth or fifth grade, I

44:17

thought about, you know, right,

44:19

becoming a comic book writer first and foremost.

44:22

And the idea that I would become a screenwriter

44:24

was just crazy. We didn't know anything anyone in

44:26

Hollywood, but comic writer felt like

44:28

attainable possibly, And yeah,

44:31

I revered them. I just thought because

44:34

I was coming up in the you

44:36

know, teen Titans

44:38

when that when that started, and I

44:40

was I was reading you

44:43

know, Burn and

44:45

Claremont's uncunning

44:47

X Men while that art was happening

44:50

like in real time, and it was when it was I

44:52

think it was bi monthly, and

44:56

that was just blowing my mind. That was

44:58

that was one of the first ones that really blew my mid mine was

45:00

what was happening with

45:02

X Men? And I just

45:04

thought it was amazing.

45:05

Yeah. Well, I will say there is a grand

45:08

tradition one of my favorite things. I have a lot of

45:10

back issues and one of my favorite things to do

45:12

is read the letters page, because you actually see

45:14

a lot of letters from people who had gone to write comics.

45:16

For sure, Martin.

45:20

You can go in there and you will find letters from

45:22

like big name people, and you're like.

45:24

Okay, you are the fans.

45:25

So what was it like to then go from being one

45:28

of those fans and then continue that tradition

45:30

of actually getting to write comics.

45:33

Well, the funny thing is I wrote movies

45:35

before I wrote comics. Like a lot of people, yeah

45:38

yeah, and they go. And

45:40

then I was so I had already

45:43

you know, it was making a healthy living. I'd already

45:45

had Blade come out. And

45:49

then randomly

45:53

I was introduced to James Robinson, who was on

45:55

the Starman Run at the time, and

45:58

and we met and we had dinner one night, and

46:01

he confessed to me that he had writer's

46:03

block and he was

46:05

trying to figure out where to go and what to do.

46:08

And I started pitching some ideas

46:10

for him and he

46:13

said, that's a really good idea. Do you mind if I use that? I

46:15

said, no, go ahead, And then we had dinner a couple weeks

46:17

later and he said, you got any more

46:19

ideas? And then he just said, do you want to start co plotting

46:22

it with me? Because I feel

46:24

bad I'm using so many of these ideas. And

46:27

so then I did, and I co

46:30

plotted it with him for a while, and

46:32

then he said, hey, DC

46:35

wants to revive the Justice Society.

46:38

Do you want to just co write it with

46:40

me? And I said, sure, that sounds

46:43

great, and irony there was.

46:46

James bailed in the second issue.

46:49

His name is still on like

46:51

like five more issues, but he

46:53

bailed. He had this sort of crisis of conscience

46:56

and I literally I'd only written like

46:58

two full scripts and these he said,

47:00

well, do you want to keep writing? We like it? And I

47:02

said sure, sure, but I need help.

47:04

And so here's what's really crazy at

47:06

the time was I was also friendly

47:09

with Geoff Johns, who had just written

47:12

I think he was still like Richard Donner's assistant

47:14

and had just written like

47:17

I don't even know if Stargirl had come out, but

47:20

he'd like written a proposal for something. And I

47:22

said, hey, Jeff, do you want to write this

47:25

with me? And DC wouldn't. I had like

47:28

really pressure them to approve him to

47:31

change.

47:34

But Jeff started on

47:37

JSA with me as like the second issue,

47:40

and then obviously he became

47:42

Geoff John's, you know, with a capital

47:44

G and a capital J. But I

47:46

backed into comics and you know, just a really

47:48

weird way, and then, you know, we kept it up

47:51

for about four years and

47:53

and then it became too unwilly for

47:55

me. But that was I loved doing

47:58

it. I would still go back and write comic at

48:00

some point. I really really enjoyed doing

48:02

it. I didn't do the Marvel method though

48:04

we wrote full script.

48:06

Yeah, yeah, bad to

48:08

do it in the full part way.

48:12

So how did you break into screenwriting?

48:14

Then?

48:15

You know, I remember I've told you this story

48:17

before, but in ninety eight

48:19

I worked in a movie theater. So I said, every single

48:21

movie that came out in ninety every single movie

48:24

that came out that year

48:26

I saw in the theaters, including Blade and Dark

48:28

City.

48:29

To which movie.

48:32

Crazy?

48:33

So how did how did that happen?

48:36

I broke in

48:38

two movies. Well, basically, the

48:41

short version is I didn't know anyone

48:43

in Hollywood couldn't figure out how

48:45

to make a path into writing. So I was going

48:47

to become a cop in Michigan.

48:50

I was going to become a homicide

48:52

detective. I was going to get a degree in police administration

48:55

go to Michigan State University. And

48:57

then my high school teachers said,

49:00

oh my god, you can't do that. You got

49:02

to write, which I wanted to, but I

49:04

had a single mom. We didn't have much money,

49:06

and they kind of staged in an intervention. They

49:09

came over to our house for coffee and said you. They

49:12

suggested I applied to USC screenwriting,

49:15

and my mom said we cannot afford

49:17

it, and they said, just we

49:19

think he can get in and just get scholarships

49:22

and whatnot. And so we had enough money

49:24

with financial aid for me to attend one semester.

49:28

Wow, and I got in and

49:31

this was an undergraduate degree. And then every

49:34

semester was sketchy. It's like whether or not I

49:36

could keep going. So I worked two or three

49:38

jobs and I would apply

49:40

for all these grants. But I made

49:43

it and I busted my ass,

49:45

and I in the program.

49:47

You were meant to come out with one screenplay, and

49:49

I had three by the time I was done.

49:52

And in my last semester, I

49:55

thought, oh, I'm going to get an agent. And I

49:58

remember reading about this particular a agent

50:00

who'd become an agent. I

50:02

believe at ICEM at the time, which is one of the Yeah,

50:05

I think they're defunct now right.

50:07

No, no longer with it.

50:08

Yeah, they'd been absorbed by one of the other

50:10

mega agencies. And I

50:12

read about this guy who had

50:16

he'd gone through Berkeley in like two and a half years

50:18

and become an agent at twenty three, and I thought,

50:21

oh, that guy seems like a real, you

50:23

know, firecracker. I'm going to I'm going to have that

50:25

guy be my agent. So I started cold

50:27

calling his office from my dorm

50:30

room and I called I

50:32

think it was forty two business

50:34

days, but I

50:37

would say, hey, this is David Goyer. You

50:39

know he talked to so and

50:41

so. Finally, on like the forty second day, it

50:44

became a joke. I was just but I was in my dorm room.

50:46

I was like, what do I want? Yeah, And

50:49

finally the assistant he

50:51

jumps on the line and says, who

50:54

the fuck are you and why you keep calling me? And

50:57

I realized I forgot like thirty seconds,

50:59

and I said, listen, I'm about to graduate

51:01

USC film School. I'm going to be a giant

51:04

filmmaker one day. You should represent

51:06

me. You're going to kick yourself if you don't. And

51:09

there was this pause and he said, Okay, send

51:11

me your script, but don't fucking

51:14

call me every day. It's going to take me a while. And

51:18

by the way, I had, I had nothing to lose.

51:20

I was in my dorm room in my underwear

51:23

and so and I

51:25

waited two weeks, and then I started calling him again

51:27

and for another couple of weeks.

51:30

Finally he answered, and he said, I'm

51:32

going to sign you. So I got an agent before

51:35

I even graduated. And but

51:37

what was interesting is he said in your script's really

51:39

good. But I decided I was going to sign you

51:41

even before I read it. And I said why,

51:43

And he's because you were so damned tenacious

51:46

that I just thought this kid's going

51:49

to succeed. And

51:51

then I graduated and I got a job

51:53

as a production assistant

51:56

on a studio and it was my job

51:58

to deliver mail ord on the

52:00

lot and also snacks like

52:02

I had like a hand card with,

52:05

you know, And and

52:07

I did that for about four

52:11

months. And at the time

52:13

he said, I thought it was gonna write funny, sort

52:16

of like American Werewolf in London movies,

52:19

And he said, can you write I think Diehard

52:21

had just come out, and he said, can you write an action movie? And

52:23

so I studied some and I wrote

52:26

one, and after

52:28

four months he said, I think I can. I can

52:30

sell this, and

52:33

like two days later he sold it and

52:36

he sold us to MGM, and he sold

52:38

it for more than ten times what I was making

52:41

as my yearly salary as a PA.

52:44

And he sold it to Jean Claude van dam

52:48

And who had just come

52:50

out with Cyborg. And I

52:52

hadn't watched any movies and there I remember that

52:54

this. He called me at work, this before cell

52:56

phones, and

52:59

he said, Jean Claude Vandam wants to buy

53:01

your script. Do you know who?

53:02

No?

53:03

And and I could hear. I could hear him

53:05

like unfolding the newspaper, and he said,

53:08

there's a there's a there's a show at like one

53:10

forty five at the Chinese Theater on Hollywood

53:13

Boulevard. Go see it and meet with him

53:15

at like five o'clock. So I feigned sickness.

53:17

I saw this movie, which is terrible.

53:19

Then then I met with them, and

53:23

I met with him, but he was you

53:25

know, say what you will about him, but he

53:27

was effusive, and he said, you're a great

53:29

writer. And I remember I

53:31

can't do a Belgian accent. But he said, I will protect

53:34

He said, Hollywood will try to destroy you, but I will

53:36

protect you like an eagle. And

53:41

he and they made the moviet like like two

53:43

months later. I was on the set. So I was I

53:45

was twenty two and it was four or five months

53:48

out of school. And then I kicked

53:50

around and did some other Jean Claudi

53:53

movies for a while, and then eventually I

53:56

got the gig to write Blade. And that

53:58

was the first time that I Mike

54:01

Delugo, who is running New Line at the time and now it's

54:03

running Warner Brothers, just let

54:05

me write what I want to write and

54:09

just didn't give me notes. And so you

54:11

know, I guess the proof is in the pudding. With that another

54:15

long answer, Well.

54:16

I was gonna it was a great one, one great answer.

54:18

And I love that gen carelled Vandamn story.

54:20

It makes me very happy as someone who is a huge

54:22

fan of his spincare.

54:25

I mean, that's the most gen cole Van Damn thing I've ever

54:27

heard. He's going to protect you like an eagle.

54:29

Okay, so let's talk about Blade, because a it's

54:31

like a fucking masterpiece and b that

54:34

essentially establishes

54:37

the superhero genre for the next you

54:39

know, still now it's still going

54:42

on.

54:42

But yeah, people cite x Men the

54:44

first one, which was great.

54:45

But Blade, Yeah, but it's Blade

54:47

and Studios. You know, you have this,

54:50

So could you talk a little bit about Blade, Like, was

54:53

that a character you'd come across before? Did

54:55

you go back and read the black and White stuff or was this

54:57

just a story? I mean, it's such a cool concept that you

54:59

were just like, I immediately know what

55:01

this is going to be.

55:02

Well, I was a giant comic book geek

55:05

anyway, so there was almost no Marvel

55:07

ordazy character that I wasn't familiar

55:09

with. So I had read

55:11

all of Too Madracula, and I'd

55:13

read the black and white yeah, sort

55:16

of more mature and magazine stories, and

55:19

I was so I was completely familiar with

55:22

with Blade. And I had heard that

55:24

Newline wanted to make they had had some

55:26

success with House Party and Deep Cover

55:29

like so called urban movies. Uh,

55:31

And I'd heard that they

55:33

wanted to do a black superhero and so

55:37

they were thinking Marvel and at the time

55:39

it was Luke Cage, it was Blade,

55:42

or it was Black Panther, And I thought

55:45

Blade could

55:47

potentially be made for a price

55:49

because it was a horror film, you know, action

55:52

horror film. And I was also

55:55

really I was watching a lot of Hong

55:58

Kong action films at

56:00

the time, you know, way before

56:02

they became in vogue, and so I had this, yeah,

56:04

crazy idea, like movies like

56:06

Bride with White Hair and stuff like that. I

56:09

had this crazy

56:12

idea to fuse like Hong

56:14

Kong action films with

56:17

you know, vampire movies with

56:19

it was just like, I don't know why it

56:21

came up with it, and I pitched it, and I

56:23

and I pitched a trilogy. I remember to

56:25

de Luca and I said, I'm going to pitch you the Star Wars

56:27

of Vampire films and

56:30

he said they and at the time

56:32

they wanted to make it for six to eight million dollars

56:35

and they liked the pitch and he just

56:37

let me write. So the movie that got made is

56:39

largely the one that I wrote. But

56:42

the funny thing is he said six to eight million, and

56:44

my first draft came in and they budgeted

56:47

it and it came in at forty five million

56:50

and it was R rated. And the crazy

56:52

thing is DeLuca who took these huge

56:56

risks at the time, just said screw it,

56:58

We're gonna make it. And then actually the

57:00

budget even escalated fifty five million,

57:03

and people were I

57:05

spawned come out, and people were just making

57:08

fun of the movie before it came out. I remember

57:10

reading early chatter even on like ain't it cool

57:13

way back when?

57:14

You know?

57:15

But I knew what we'd made

57:18

and I knew we had the goods and

57:20

it was amazing being in those first couple

57:23

of audience previews because

57:25

you could just feel the audience like, oh

57:27

my god, this is something. Yeah, yeah, see me

57:30

before it was cool.

57:31

Okay, sorry, I just need Jason, I know, we

57:34

a film about it.

57:35

I need to know about the blood rave because

57:37

it is like one of the most iconic sequences

57:39

ever and is now like constantly spoken

57:42

of it. And also

57:44

it's like, you know the Batman, there's definitely

57:47

like they have the rave sequence there

57:50

and it's like definitely red and very thing that

57:52

could you just talk about that, like, because did

57:54

you know that that was going to become like such an

57:56

iconic moment.

57:58

Well, I mean, look that was in

58:00

my pitch. Was that opening?

58:03

I mean I pitched that scene in the

58:05

old because I was trying to reinvent vampire

58:08

movies in vampire stories,

58:10

and and and I just thought,

58:12

what's the most decadent,

58:16

you know, thing I can possibly

58:18

think of, you know, a kind of vampire

58:20

let them eat cake or something like that. And

58:25

so that was in the first pitch. And then you know, Steve

58:27

Norington did an incredible

58:29

job shooting it. It was it

58:31

was completely miserable. We shot it in Los

58:34

Angeles, and we shot it over the course

58:36

of like I can't remember how many days.

58:38

But it was hot, it was summer, and

58:41

the crew had to wear those sort of like white

58:43

hasmat suits, you know, like breaking bad clean

58:45

suits. Yeah, and it was all this fake

58:48

blood and the floor was really sticky and it smelled

58:51

awful, I mean just

58:54

awful. And you couldn't walk around without

58:56

your like your feet sticking to things, and

58:59

and it was I mean, it was a

59:02

miserable sequence to

59:04

film. But I

59:06

don't know, it's it's like we're talking about something

59:08

that I wrote twenty more

59:10

than twenty twenty seven years ago, Like where

59:13

did I come up with the idea? But I was just trying to

59:15

come up with breaking

59:17

down the conventions. I was trying,

59:19

Look, don't get me wrong. I love Hammer House

59:21

of Horror films, but I was trying to come up

59:23

with like the anti you

59:26

know, Hammer vampire story.

59:29

Yeah, and also tip into black

59:31

exploitation and all of those things. It's it's

59:34

crazy that it worked, yeah,

59:36

you know, because we're sort of fusing

59:39

so many different elements.

59:41

Sarah writer For a number of years increasingly

59:44

successful writer, you become

59:46

the go to guy for adaptation, comic

59:49

adaptation IP stuff. As you noted, how

59:51

do you then make the transition to director

59:54

and showrunner?

59:54

And how hard is that to do?

59:58

Good question? Well, at the time

1:00:01

when I started to do it, it was very

1:00:03

hard because I built

1:00:05

up ahead of steam as a screenwriter back

1:00:08

in the days when one could make a good living

1:00:10

as a screenwriter as opposed to what's happening

1:00:12

right now. And I

1:00:15

was a fast screenwriter, so I could

1:00:17

write four feature scripts a year,

1:00:20

and I was making a really good living, and

1:00:24

I had had the fortunate

1:00:27

well, I would say with Blade

1:00:29

in Dark City, those were the first times I'd

1:00:31

worked with, you know, genuinely

1:00:33

good directors, and I'd worked

1:00:35

with some not so good directors prior to that,

1:00:38

and i'd seen one of the things

1:00:40

that's hard as a screenwriter is

1:00:44

you can have your name on a movie or a teleplay

1:00:47

and up

1:00:49

to thirty percent of it could be rewritten

1:00:51

by other people, but they won't get credit, their

1:00:53

names won't appear, but you get the blame

1:00:56

they massively altered. So

1:01:00

I'd had this experience of just either

1:01:03

being rewritten by people or

1:01:05

worked with some mediocre

1:01:07

or bad directors, and I

1:01:12

wanted to retain more control. So I wanted to

1:01:14

start producing and

1:01:16

then eventually directing, and I

1:01:18

thought, well, I can, I can at least be

1:01:20

a mediocre director. I

1:01:25

mean, you know, maybe at the beginning I was. I think I

1:01:27

got better at it, and

1:01:30

it's it's the whole ten thousand hour thing. But

1:01:33

it's hard because my agents did not

1:01:35

want me to do it, and

1:01:38

we're making money off of me and

1:01:40

Dave.

1:01:40

We got a good thing going yeah and.

1:01:43

So, and people don't want

1:01:45

to give a FIRSTI director a shot. So I

1:01:49

adapted a book called Zigzag that I

1:01:53

had a budget for two point eight million dollars, and

1:01:55

I

1:01:57

Wesley agreed to do a cameo.

1:01:59

He worked on it for six days. He was like

1:02:01

the anchor. And then I got some other people like Oliver

1:02:04

Platten, Natasha Leone and John

1:02:06

Leguizamo and

1:02:08

I worked in that movie for

1:02:11

a year, and I took what's called scale, so

1:02:16

I can't even remember what I made to

1:02:18

write it, something like eighteen thousand dollars and

1:02:20

to direct it forty thousand and fifty

1:02:23

eight thousand seems like a lot, but I

1:02:25

was making far more than that as a writer, and

1:02:27

my agents

1:02:30

were not happy with me making the

1:02:32

shift.

1:02:34

And how much more complicated because obviously

1:02:36

you've been in this business now so long and seen so

1:02:38

many changes, and now you've got productions

1:02:41

on TV slash streaming that

1:02:44

are essentially multi

1:02:46

episode movies. How

1:02:49

did you put you know, it

1:02:52

seems like a very daunting task to try

1:02:54

and put all those tools together and say, now I'm going

1:02:56

to manage a multi episode,

1:02:58

multi season movie

1:03:00

that takes place on you

1:03:03

know, one continent,

1:03:05

but across the continent and multiple time

1:03:07

zones at once.

1:03:10

You know what, what were the things that you.

1:03:12

Encountered that you were like, well, I'm glad that I had been

1:03:14

through these other experiences

1:03:17

to let me know how to do this.

1:03:19

Well, first of all, I mean, it

1:03:21

is daunting. It is really hard.

1:03:23

It's there are times when I

1:03:27

I, you know, wish I could

1:03:29

work on a show

1:03:31

that just took place in one city,

1:03:34

that you know, one time zone, that didn't

1:03:36

have a ton of visual effects or things like

1:03:38

that. But I but

1:03:40

it was also kind of bit by bit by bit

1:03:42

by bit over the course of twenty years.

1:03:45

So it's just building upon what I learned

1:03:47

before. And I had, you

1:03:50

know, the first show that really made

1:03:52

some waves was a show that I

1:03:54

had co created

1:03:56

called flash Forward Way

1:03:59

Back on ABC at the time, and I

1:04:01

directed the first two episodes of that, And then I had

1:04:03

another show on Stars

1:04:06

called Da Vinci's Demons, which was a little more ambitious.

1:04:08

It's sort of each one was successfully a little more

1:04:10

ambitious, and it's it's

1:04:12

just building upon you know, look,

1:04:16

you look at a lot of people, a

1:04:18

lot of filmmakers, and Chris

1:04:22

Nolan started out with you

1:04:24

know, following, which is most people I've

1:04:26

me even seen or heard of, and and

1:04:28

and then why

1:04:32

am I blanking on Momento? Memento?

1:04:35

Yeah, then Memento and then Insomnia and then

1:04:37

you know it just he didn't start He

1:04:39

was incredibly talented, but he didn't start out with

1:04:41

inception.

1:04:42

Yeah.

1:04:43

Yeah, yeah, so with

1:04:45

something that's also like, you talk about ambition,

1:04:48

and you've already set up this kind of huge challenge

1:04:50

for yourself, and then coming

1:04:52

into the second season, you

1:04:54

arguably switch everything up, yeah,

1:04:57

and kind of go one hundred years in the future

1:04:59

and change like one hundred plus and change

1:05:02

like a lot of the major costs. Could you talk about those kind

1:05:04

of choices and challenges and how

1:05:06

that adds to the ambition

1:05:08

and the storytelling.

1:05:11

Well, when I pitched

1:05:13

Foundation to Apple, I said,

1:05:15

this is going to be a crazy hybrid because it's it's

1:05:18

going to be a cross between a serial ie show and

1:05:21

kind of a seasonal anthology. And

1:05:23

so I said, we're going to have, like, you

1:05:26

know, a complete story, and they're going to be a

1:05:28

handful of characters that are going to continue

1:05:30

from season to season that are through

1:05:32

the various trusts of science fiction, they are going to be effectively

1:05:35

immortal. And then

1:05:37

we're going to introduce new characters each

1:05:40

season and they're going to have a complete story

1:05:42

and then you know, either

1:05:45

succeed or die or whatnot, and then they won't

1:05:47

come back. And I just I couldn't

1:05:50

really think of a show

1:05:52

that had pursued that format before,

1:05:55

and I thought it would be an interesting way to

1:05:57

kind of tackle some of the more

1:06:00

theological aspects of

1:06:02

Foundation. And I guess Apple

1:06:05

was crazy enough

1:06:07

to go for it. You know, Normally,

1:06:10

normally, when you pitch something that just like breaks

1:06:12

all the conventional rules of storytelling

1:06:15

or storytelling as it's known on streaming,

1:06:17

you're like, oh, you're crazy. That'll never fly, and

1:06:19

on top of it be hugely expensive.

1:06:22

But there were

1:06:24

some fans at Apple of

1:06:26

Foundation and

1:06:28

and and that helped. And

1:06:31

I, you know, at the time, I created

1:06:33

it with Josh Friedman, who left

1:06:36

after the third episode or so. But

1:06:39

we spent a lot of time on that pitch,

1:06:41

and each of us had, you

1:06:44

know, had a certain body of work that

1:06:46

we worked on prior to that that

1:06:48

I guess they, you

1:06:50

know, bought our crazy pitch, you

1:06:53

know, I think that the in

1:06:55

terms of changing it up, I I

1:06:59

I think, on one

1:07:01

hand, what we did with season two, you

1:07:04

could say you're crazy to

1:07:06

have attempted that, like why not continue

1:07:08

what you know, why

1:07:11

are you just doing a refresh on everything?

1:07:13

But people seem to have really,

1:07:17

you know, gone nuts for

1:07:19

it, And so I just felt

1:07:21

like it would be boring if we

1:07:23

repeated ourselves or boring if we just

1:07:25

I just wanted to try something really

1:07:28

bold and challenging. And I'm

1:07:32

kind of amazed at how well Season

1:07:34

two has been received. I thought more people would be freaked

1:07:37

out by the fact that we're just we're

1:07:39

just jumping forward one hundred and thirty years and

1:07:41

just introducing a whole slew of new characters,

1:07:43

and even many of the characters that you know are

1:07:46

are you

1:07:48

know, we're perceiving them in a different way.

1:07:51

And I love how we just start with the first

1:07:53

episode and we just plunk you in the middle of this

1:07:55

black and white film, you know, with

1:07:57

Harry Seldon, and we just say

1:08:00

you got to catch up. Sorry, you know,

1:08:03

I don't know. That excited me and I

1:08:07

am amazed though that it

1:08:09

didn't throw more people.

1:08:10

I will say that

1:08:12

opening scene where Harry is trying

1:08:15

to knit his mind back together,

1:08:17

Yeah, how much of that was written? How much of that

1:08:19

is Jared just kind of going.

1:08:22

About half So, so

1:08:25

we wrote some stuff. I will say this, It's it's

1:08:27

not all random. Well,

1:08:29

because you've seen this season, like some of some of the

1:08:32

some of the stuff that he says loops back around.

1:08:34

People go, oh, interesting. Jared's

1:08:38

a really smart, shrewd guy, and

1:08:40

we talked about the themes of things

1:08:43

that he could talk about, so he said everything

1:08:45

that was scripted, and then it was just kind

1:08:47

of an open mic letter rip stream

1:08:49

of consciousness. I mean, honestly, I would have gone

1:08:52

on longer. But

1:08:56

those that stuff is also really expensive

1:08:58

because whether it's whether

1:09:00

it's the black and white stuff where we're trying to erase

1:09:03

things, or whether it's the stuff

1:09:05

in the prime ratio in itself where we're

1:09:07

trying to erase crew reflections. It's

1:09:11

but he's we used there were

1:09:13

times when he said a bunch of stuff and he said, oh, you're not

1:09:15

gonna use that. You're not gonna use that. You're not gonna use it. And

1:09:17

we then ended up using a lot of course.

1:09:19

And then you get that juxtaposition with that like

1:09:22

incredible action sequence, Oh

1:09:24

my dealy naked fighting the assassins,

1:09:27

and that's like a very different tone shift too. Could

1:09:29

you talk a little bit about that because the action is so great.

1:09:33

You know, I loved

1:09:35

juxtaposing those two scenes together though,

1:09:37

because there's like one is as heady, kind

1:09:39

of hard filmy, you

1:09:41

know, THHX eleven thirty is you can get

1:09:44

and then the other one is just kind of a Game of

1:09:46

Thrones action sequence. But I

1:09:48

I again, I wanted to

1:09:51

challenge the audience and challenge people's

1:09:53

expectations of what if they'd

1:09:55

seen season one, or even if they hadn't seen season

1:09:57

one and then heard about it, what

1:10:00

kind of scenes we could take

1:10:02

on in the show, because

1:10:04

I think there was some people had

1:10:06

heard about it, but maybe there

1:10:08

was a barrier to entry because they thought it was like too

1:10:11

highbrow or too heady or exactly

1:10:14

exactly, and it is still cerebral, but

1:10:17

I thought it's a big tent and we can

1:10:19

embody a bunch of scenes. And I'm excited with

1:10:23

you know, I don't know when this episode's going

1:10:25

to drop, but episode two will

1:10:27

drop the

1:10:29

twenty first, and

1:10:32

we also start to introduce

1:10:35

some more elements and some more dry humor

1:10:38

as of episode two and particularly with episode

1:10:40

three, and once again, I'm excited

1:10:43

for the audience to you

1:10:46

know, on the surface of it, it feels like it wouldn't

1:10:48

work, but it does work, and you realize

1:10:51

it's such a foundation, is so serious

1:10:54

that it's good to have some characters

1:10:57

that don't take psychohistories

1:11:00

seriously or the Empire. It's

1:11:02

good to have characters like that kind of in your

1:11:04

quiver.

1:11:05

Yeah, well, David,

1:11:08

this has been such a fun conversation. Thank you

1:11:10

so much for joining us.

1:11:11

Yeah, thank you so much.

1:11:12

My pleasure. And if I can do a tiny plug.

1:11:15

Yes, please please.

1:11:16

I've got a little website that i've I've neglected

1:11:19

for a while, but I've also

1:11:21

because of the striking stuff Davidescory

1:11:23

dot com. I'm doing show notes as

1:11:25

episodes drop, and I'm also including

1:11:28

kind of behind the scenes making of photos

1:11:30

and things. And so if people want

1:11:32

to log onto there and I'm going to

1:11:35

put together a mailing list, they can get some

1:11:37

more sort of fun behind the scenes details.

1:11:40

And that's all I got.

1:11:43

Cool, that's awesome. Thanks again, David,

1:11:45

my pleasure. Up next, nerd Out.

1:11:55

In today's not Out way, you tell us what you love

1:11:57

them why, a theory or excited chat or

1:11:59

a quick question we can answer. Matt

1:12:01

offers a thought on Indiana Jones.

1:12:04

Matt begins with some kind words towards us.

1:12:06

Thank you, Matt. I won't make everybody listen to them,

1:12:09

but we appreciate.

1:12:09

You, Matt says, with Indiana

1:12:12

Jones back in the limelight, I wanted to share

1:12:14

a realization I had during the last

1:12:16

time I watched Traders of the Lost Arc throughout

1:12:18

the introductory sequence, walking through

1:12:20

the Peruvian woods, encountering bats,

1:12:22

double crossing aids, outsmarting traps,

1:12:25

shrugging off scary wildlife, even

1:12:27

taking a gorgeous relic and surviving a collapsing

1:12:29

tomb. Many excamation points

1:12:32

there is not so much as a hint of the legendary

1:12:35

John Williams theme. It's only when

1:12:37

Indy grabs the vine to swing into the

1:12:39

water and escape his pursuers that

1:12:41

we hear those trumpets blare out his motif.

1:12:44

That got me reflecting on how the heart of Indy

1:12:46

is truly the escape. He

1:12:48

doesn't get to keep the Arc at the end of Raiders,

1:12:51

or the Shankara stones at the end of Temple of the

1:12:53

Doom, or the grail at the end of the Crusade,

1:12:56

or the skull at the end of Kingdom. I haven't

1:12:58

seen Dile of Destiny yet, but I kind of hope it keeps

1:13:00

to this tradition of Indy getting into something

1:13:02

way over his hat and just making

1:13:04

out by the skin of his teeth, because that's who Indiana

1:13:07

Jones is. The oh I'm up fuck around

1:13:09

him. Find out here. Thank

1:13:12

you for indulging my observation, sending

1:13:14

you all the love in this nutsp map.

1:13:16

Thank you, Matt. I think that's true. I think it's

1:13:18

all about the escape.

1:13:19

I think that's true. It's about the close calls.

1:13:22

It is about that.

1:13:24

I've been thinking about something we talked about during

1:13:26

our conversation about Indy, and that's

1:13:28

how in the final act

1:13:30

of most of

1:13:32

these movies, the

1:13:35

agency goes to a

1:13:38

higher power, God, aliens, whatever,

1:13:40

and it's actually not Indy kind of doing

1:13:43

whatever the big thing is at the very end of the

1:13:45

movie. And I was thinking about it,

1:13:47

and I think, you know, to Matt's

1:13:49

point, not only is it about the escape,

1:13:52

but what makes Indy the hero

1:13:54

in these stories is the fact that he has

1:13:57

he is able to put

1:14:00

uh whatever the object

1:14:02

and the power behind the object is

1:14:04

in the correct framing.

1:14:07

He understands like I'm just a man.

1:14:09

I'm not I don't I'm not going to fuck around

1:14:11

with God, Like I'm not even

1:14:13

gonna interro I'm not gonna mess

1:14:16

with that right like he has that

1:14:18

respect. And all the other villains of

1:14:20

our various pieces, mostly Nazis

1:14:22

never do right. They always want to say, Wow, I want

1:14:24

to seize God's or an

1:14:26

alien's power for myself. Indy never

1:14:28

does that. And number two, uh,

1:14:31

you know, kind of attaching

1:14:33

this observation to Matt's observation. Part

1:14:35

of the reason it's about the escape for Indy is,

1:14:38

think about it. He can only he

1:14:41

can only go for objects

1:14:43

that he can carry out in a medium

1:14:45

sized duffel bag.

1:14:47

That's it.

1:14:51

It's not or it's not happening, folks.

1:14:54

He's got to be able to tuck it into

1:14:56

like a postman's bag and

1:14:58

climb out. So it

1:15:01

is often about the escape because

1:15:04

he was gonna help him carry

1:15:06

the thing out of there. How

1:15:08

is he gonna like, how is he

1:15:10

gonna get the arc like out

1:15:12

of tennis and out of the building, Like I

1:15:15

guess they were gonna have a truck or

1:15:17

something.

1:15:17

But there was come on, there was.

1:15:18

No gonna happen.

1:15:19

No, it was never gonna happen.

1:15:21

Thanks Matt.

1:15:22

If you have theories, passions, or quick questions you

1:15:24

want to share, hit us up at extra at crooked

1:15:27

dot com.

1:15:27

Instructions in the show notes.

1:15:31

A huge thanks to David Eskoyer

1:15:33

for being so generous with his time this

1:15:36

episode, and that's it for us

1:15:38

this episode Rosie and he plugs.

1:15:40

Yes, I'm gonna plug mutual

1:15:43

aid. It's very hot out there. So

1:15:46

on Saturday, when I was leaving San Diego,

1:15:48

I went CVS. I bought twenty

1:15:50

eight dollars of water, which was like six big

1:15:52

cases of water, and I just handed it out to all the folks

1:15:55

who live in San Diego year round. If you were

1:15:57

at San Diego, there are loads of great

1:16:00

mutual aid organizations there that you can

1:16:02

donate to if you weren't able to be there and

1:16:04

help out the folks when you were actually

1:16:06

at the con because you were busy. There's a great one called

1:16:09

we All We Got SD that's their

1:16:11

Instagram handle. Also, if you have

1:16:13

a freezer that is big and you live in America,

1:16:15

maybe because a lot of the freezers here are really

1:16:17

big, put a case of water in your freezer. Then

1:16:19

when you're driving around, if you see anyone just sitting

1:16:22

out in the sun, you just give them.

1:16:23

An icy bottle of water. Cold water saves

1:16:25

people's lives in these heat waves.

1:16:27

And if you can't and

1:16:29

don't have the time, we aren't physically able, there's loads

1:16:32

of great spaces, homymade meals,

1:16:34

community fridges.

1:16:35

There's loads of different places that you can do it.

1:16:36

But right now it's really hot and being outside is really

1:16:38

dangerous, so cold water is a great thing to

1:16:41

having a fridge, or just throw some throw

1:16:43

some crash to one of the mutual aid orcs

1:16:45

in your area.

1:16:46

Well said.

1:16:50

Catch the next episode of x ray Vision Friday,

1:16:52

July twenty eighth for the finale of Secret

1:16:55

Invasion.

1:16:56

We'll be there.

1:16:57

Yeah, Secret Invasion. It's the final finale,

1:17:00

final episode. It's time, It's happened.

1:17:02

Can You can watch full episodes of the

1:17:04

podcast on YouTube and check out our Twitter

1:17:06

at xr V pod and our discord

1:17:09

hang out with all those core fans are always talking.

1:17:11

About five star ratings,

1:17:13

five star reviews. We need and we gotta have them. You

1:17:15

gotta give them to us. Here is five from ash.

1:17:18

It's the only podcast I prioritize

1:17:20

listening to. Wow, if you care about

1:17:22

any nerd stuff at all, this is the podcast for you.

1:17:25

I've been a loyal listener since episode one and I

1:17:27

love the show so much I even joined the discord,

1:17:29

something I'd never done before.

1:17:31

Welcome and yeah, thanks for joining us.

1:17:33

Extra Vision is a Crooked Media production. The show

1:17:35

is produced by Chris Lord and Saul Rumin and executive

1:17:37

produced by me Jason Concepcio and our

1:17:39

editing at sound design is by Facillis Fatopoulos.

1:17:42

Video production by Delon Villanueva

1:17:44

and Rachel guy Eski. Social media by

1:17:47

Awa Oglatti and Caroline Dunfie.

1:17:49

Thank you to Brian Basquez for our theme music.

1:17:52

See you next time.

1:17:52

Bye,