0:00

You and Me Both is a production of

0:02

I Heart Radio. I'm

0:06

Hillary Clinton and this is You and Me

0:08

Both, where I get to talk to people

0:10

I admire about topics that are

0:12

important to us. And today

0:15

we're talking about books.

0:18

You know, books have been a part of my life

0:20

for as long as I can

0:22

remember. I adore

0:25

reading. It's truly one of my favorite

0:27

things to do. I do it every chance

0:29

I get. All kinds of books

0:31

have kept me company, of educated

0:33

and inspired me. And I thought,

0:36

as we're moving in toward the holidays,

0:38

we should all be thinking about how

0:40

we're going to slow down and read

0:43

books that will transport us

0:45

out of where we are from our quarantine

0:48

situations. So today

0:50

I'll be talking to Marley Dias.

0:53

Marley, when she was just ten years old,

0:55

started one thousand Black

0:57

Girl Books. That was her campaign

1:00

to collect and donate children's

1:02

books that featured black girls

1:05

because she just wasn't seeing books like

1:07

that in her classes or

1:10

in her school library. I will also

1:12

be talking to Stacy Abrams.

1:14

Now you've heard from Stacy before

1:17

on this podcast, but this time

1:19

we're talking about something very different

1:22

than politics. We're going to talk about

1:24

the romance novels she writes

1:26

under her pen name Selena

1:29

Montgomery. But first

1:32

I'm talking with award

1:34

winning crime novelist Louise

1:36

Penny. Louise has

1:38

written sixteen books

1:40

in her Inspector Gamash

1:43

series. They're set in the

1:45

fictional town of Three Pines,

1:48

which is a place that she invented

1:50

across the border from Vermont

1:52

in eastern Quebec, and

1:54

she has populated it with some of the most

1:57

interesting characters in action.

2:00

I love her books. I've read every

2:03

single one of them. And if

2:06

you haven't read any of Louise Penny's

2:08

books, or you haven't heard Louise, Wow,

2:10

you have a real treat coming. I

2:13

want to start by saying that

2:15

I knew of Louise's work before

2:18

I knew Louise, and the reason

2:21

I knew about her and started

2:23

reading her with the very first book

2:26

in her series years ago, is

2:28

because my dear dear friend

2:31

Betsy Evelyn, was a big

2:33

fan. And one of

2:35

the things that Betsy and I did throughout

2:38

all the decades of our friendship was

2:40

to exchange ideas about books

2:42

to read and books that could just literally

2:45

lift you out of the day to day.

2:47

So Louise is one

2:50

of those writers who we both

2:53

mutually fell in love with and then,

2:55

as fate would have it, Betsy

2:58

got to meet Louise in summer of

3:00

sixteen, and then I got

3:03

to meet Louise, and then we got to

3:05

be great friends. So I

3:07

just can't tell you how pleased I am to

3:09

be talking with you today, Louise,

3:12

And are you Hillary? This is fantastic

3:15

home know, well, today we want

3:17

to talk about and explore the idea

3:20

of escaping through what we

3:22

read. And I think that's particularly

3:24

important right now given what's happening

3:27

around the world. And so let me start

3:29

by asking you, Louise, when

3:31

did you fall in love with mysteries?

3:35

Well, I didn't start reading mysteries

3:37

until I was probably in my

3:41

early teens because I never

3:43

read Nancy Drew. I don't know how I missed

3:46

Nancy Drew, but you fell told you

3:48

that's how you started. Absolutely yes,

3:50

and and the Hardy Boys, but they were, you know, a distant

3:52

second to Nancy Drew. Right,

3:55

exactly how I could have missed Nancy

3:57

Drew. I was reading and Green Gables and

4:00

all of the Oh

4:02

yes, But I remember clearly the

4:04

first time because I was a voracious

4:06

reader as a child, but never crime

4:08

novels. And I remember coming up

4:11

the stairs. We had a cottage north

4:13

of Montreal in the Laurentians, and

4:15

we were there for the summer, and I came upstairs and

4:17

my mother came out of the bedroom and

4:19

it was mid afternoon or so, and she was holding

4:22

a book and she said, you know, I just

4:24

finished this book, and I

4:27

think you'd like it. And she handed

4:29

it to me and it was still warm from

4:31

her hands, and it was an Agatha Christie

4:34

and it was the first time that

4:36

my mother and I shared a book.

4:39

It's become magic since then, and I've had such

4:41

a soft spot for Christie since

4:43

then as well, and and for crime novels.

4:46

One of the questions I'd love to find out from you

4:48

is how did you come to Nancy Drew.

4:50

I think Nancy Drew was recommended

4:54

by the librarian in my public

4:56

library. And I used to go with my mother

4:58

when I was too young to go by myself,

5:01

to our local, very small

5:03

public library, and the librarian

5:05

said, oh, I think you'd like this. It's about a

5:08

girl who has adventures and solves mysteries.

5:10

So that's how I started reading Nancy Drew.

5:12

And it was a kind of absurd story

5:14

that the sixteen year old girl her father

5:16

was a widower and she literally could go anywhere

5:19

and drive her own roadster. Uh out

5:21

to solve mysteries, but it just

5:24

took me. And then I discovered Agatha

5:26

Christie like you did, and fell in love

5:28

with how economic

5:31

her stories were and

5:33

how clever they were.

5:35

But I want to get back to you because

5:38

you're the one who's actually producing these

5:40

extraordinary stories that give me a

5:42

lot of delight and escapism.

5:45

So tell us how you got started

5:47

writing mysteries. I

5:50

wasn't actually going to write a mystery.

5:52

I was a journalist at the CBC and

5:55

I was tired, and I'd

5:57

covered one too many Quebec sovereignty referendum.

6:00

Quebec has quite stressful politics,

6:04

and I had frankly burned out. It

6:06

is a little embarrassing to say to you, Hillary

6:09

Clinton, that I burned out on Canadian politics.

6:14

But I I Michael, my husband. I came

6:16

home one day and he said, look, I know you've always wanted

6:18

to write. If if you want to quit

6:20

work in order to write your

6:22

book, I will support you. So

6:25

I quit work and then suffered

6:28

five years of writer's block. I

6:30

got to the stage, Hillary, where Michael,

6:32

You're going to work every day? By bye, honey, good Luck

6:34

had come home and he stopped asking

6:37

how the book was going. It was right up there

6:39

with when I turned thirty five and my mother stopped

6:41

asking if I'd met any nice man lately. And

6:44

then I moved Michael and I moved

6:47

out of Montreal down south, quite

6:49

close to the Vermont border, and

6:52

I fell in with a group of women, all of whom were

6:54

creative, and they taught

6:56

me something that should have been self evident, but

6:59

I realized is that I was just riddled

7:01

with fear and insecurity and something

7:04

that has been um a challenge

7:06

for me most of my life, and that is the

7:08

need for the approval of others, or the really

7:11

more the fear of disapproval. So

7:13

what would happen if I tried and failed and

7:15

they taught me? And I saw it in

7:18

what they did and their courage to create

7:20

and put it out there, was that the trying

7:22

and the failing and the judgment of others

7:25

wouldn't kill me. What was killing

7:27

me, quietly was the not

7:29

trying. So I decided I would

7:31

write a crime novel, and I would write it

7:33

just for myself, just write it for

7:35

the joy of it. This happened actually

7:37

shortly after nine eleven. I realized

7:40

that no place is safe, that anything

7:43

can happen at any time, and there's no no

7:45

safety, physical safety. So

7:48

I started writing. I wrote for two or three

7:50

years, and then I finally I'd finished

7:52

the book. And do you want

7:55

me to go on? Because I feel like I'm just doing a monologue

7:57

here, Ghilary. I hate to, but your eyes

7:59

are still open. My eyes are open,

8:02

My ears are, you know, very open,

8:04

despite having headphones on. I

8:06

think this is such a it's

8:08

it's not only a great story about

8:11

what you did overcoming fear

8:14

of failure, overcoming the perfectionist

8:16

gene that unfortunately afflicts a lot

8:18

of women, being willing

8:20

to do something for yourself that, as

8:23

you say, gave joy to you. And

8:26

then you finished. You know, I

8:29

love the characters that you have

8:31

created, and I've often

8:33

heard you say that you created characters

8:36

that you would want to spend time with. Take

8:38

us inside your process,

8:40

because it's really the characters that I think

8:43

drive your plot and drive the success

8:46

of your series, because people

8:48

want to know what's happening to them. Yeah,

8:51

there was conscious partly because I didn't think the

8:53

books would be published, so I had to enjoy

8:55

the process that might be the only reward

8:57

I would get. But that whole

9:00

sense of the village was done

9:02

deliberately because of again nine

9:04

eleven, and that understanding

9:08

and profound appreciation that anything

9:10

can happen at any time, and that

9:12

our as I said before, our physical

9:14

bodies are never going to be safe. There's no way.

9:17

Eventually we'll all die and we

9:19

don't know how, we don't know when there's there's no

9:21

guarantee of physical safety. There

9:23

is, however, a way to guarantee emotional

9:25

and spiritual safety. And the

9:27

way to do that and the only way I can figure

9:29

out to do that is through a sense of belonging

9:32

of community. And that's

9:35

what I wanted Three Pines to be, was

9:37

that safe place for our

9:39

souls, for our emotions.

9:42

Where there are flawed people, there

9:44

are kind people. There are people who are occasionally

9:47

cruel, but there is beyond

9:49

all else acceptance, where

9:52

people are genuinely friends, where

9:55

goodness exists. The books are about

9:57

terror, but at the end of the day, they're an

9:59

l get to goodness and that goodness

10:02

exists and will triumph I

10:04

believe that I've seen it in my life,

10:06

and it's something I cling to in

10:08

these days, that goodness will triumph.

10:12

We're taking a quick break. Stay with us.

10:16

But of course, just as in life, there

10:19

is no such thing as absolute

10:21

safety, and so the community

10:24

keeps being interrupted by murder. For

10:28

a very small little place, you

10:30

know, kind of north of the Vermont

10:33

border and east turn back, there

10:35

are a lot of dead bodies that are

10:40

there. And how

10:42

the different characters, of course

10:45

react to that and what they know

10:48

or what they shouldn't know but don't

10:50

realize they do, And and it truly

10:52

is a joy to read because

10:55

you're discovering as you go

10:58

this underlying tension between

11:00

good and evil, between cruelty

11:03

and kindness. And I

11:05

want to sort of circle back to why

11:08

people read for escape, especially

11:10

mysteries. Why is it that the

11:13

mystery, the crime story

11:15

has just sustained itself.

11:17

I guess from probably the Greeks to the Romans?

11:20

Right, do you know, Hillary? I

11:22

wish I knew. I think a lot of people

11:25

like puzzles, and mysteries are often puzzles,

11:27

and so you can escape into who did it? And

11:29

where the clues and so you can leave your

11:31

own troubles behind. I

11:34

think with crime novels mysteries,

11:36

often you know it's going to be solved,

11:39

that there will be an end

11:41

and an answer, and in this life

11:44

so rarely are there actually clear answers

11:46

to all of our troubles. I think

11:48

for my books there's

11:51

also, as you put your finger on, there's

11:53

also the sense of community and belonging

11:55

that I think also adds a layer of comfort

11:57

that the books, while clearly and happily novels,

12:00

are actually about other

12:02

things. What do you think, like,

12:04

why do you read crime novels? Well,

12:06

I will tell you I read a certain kind

12:09

of crime novel because

12:12

a lot of what's called crime or thriller

12:15

novels to me are so formulaic

12:18

and filled with

12:20

bloody violence and

12:23

without much depth of character

12:25

development, and so I don't

12:27

particularly respond to those.

12:29

I find them like just an

12:32

anvil hitting me in the head as

12:34

one more horrible dismemberment

12:37

of some young woman happens. So

12:39

I'm interested in character development

12:43

along with the

12:45

mystery, and we need a setting

12:47

that is different. You know. One

12:50

of the things I love about your books and why

12:52

I find that escape in them,

12:54

is yes, you may be in the same

12:57

place in Eastern Quebec, in Three

12:59

Pine, in Montreal, you know, in Quebec

13:01

City. Those are the places that you

13:03

have populated. But you

13:06

feel as though you're learning something,

13:09

You're expanding your understanding of

13:11

a place, like for example, I personally

13:13

did not know that people loyal to the

13:15

British crown helped to settle eastern

13:17

Quebec until I started reading

13:20

your books. So little

13:22

things like that, which are you know, worth

13:24

noting to, you know, larger questions

13:27

about corruption inside police forces,

13:29

something that you know we're clearly dealing

13:32

with right now in our own country. So I

13:35

read for plot

13:37

and character and place

13:40

and learning something. And

13:42

yes, I also like the

13:44

outcomes of mysteries because

13:47

in the vast majority of the ones that I

13:49

like, the bad guy gets has come

13:51

up. And you know, so I read

13:53

and I learn, and I escape,

13:56

and I can go deeper and I can

13:58

feel a connection to your

14:00

characters. That's what

14:02

keeps me, you know, coming back time

14:05

and again. And I guess I want to ask

14:07

in reverse, do you think

14:09

you started writing and continue

14:12

writing as a form of escape.

14:16

I've never been asked that before. I

14:18

didn't realize I did until

14:21

Michael got sick, as you know, with

14:23

dementia, particularly near the end,

14:25

and I thought I wouldn't be able to write through it,

14:28

but it turned out to be the opposite. So

14:30

I would look after Michael and get into bed,

14:33

and then I'd come out and I would be able to escape

14:35

into this world

14:38

I had created oddly enough so that other

14:40

people could be comforted. Never

14:42

occurred to me that I would be the

14:44

main beneficiary, not only

14:46

because I could control it, and I think there was part of

14:48

that, but it was so

14:50

comfortable being with these friends, and

14:52

I could write and write and write, and I

14:55

could feel all my fear,

14:57

all the terror slipping

14:59

a way. So yeah, yeah, you're right,

15:02

I do and through this the pandemic. For

15:04

the first little while, I was so distracted

15:07

and kind of distraught, I found it difficult

15:09

to focus. But after

15:11

that I found it such a comfort

15:14

to be able to right and

15:16

write what it is I write. I don't write about

15:18

a world that's worse than the one I actually live

15:21

in. You know that is so meaningful to

15:23

me to hear you say that. I

15:25

think what you have given as

15:27

a gift to your millions and millions

15:29

of readers is that

15:32

ability to breathe, to

15:34

just exhale, to

15:37

find that moment of

15:39

release and some

15:42

separation of the day

15:44

to day pressures and

15:46

stresses and craziness

15:49

that we are living through. So

15:51

for a million reasons, I am grateful

15:54

for you and the characters you have created.

15:57

And I just can't wait to see

16:00

where these characters of yours take

16:02

us next time, because there's always

16:05

going to be a huge need

16:07

for escape. Well

16:09

what you just said, I mean, I can feel

16:11

my eyes burning. Thank you. Louise's

16:18

latest book, All the Devils Are Here,

16:21

is on shelves now and it's terrific.

16:24

In it, she takes Inspector Gamash

16:27

and his family out of Quebec for

16:29

the first time and transports

16:31

them to Paris. You will feel like

16:33

you're right in Paris,

16:36

as yes, crimes are committed

16:38

and Gamash has to once

16:40

again come to the forefront. Look

16:43

for it now at your local bookstore.

16:47

Our next guest needs no introduction.

16:50

I know you've heard of Stacy Abrahams,

16:52

and I hope you've heard her speaking on this podcast

16:56

about her work protecting the vote

16:58

in Georgia and across our country.

17:01

But you might not know that Stacy

17:03

also writes romantic suspense

17:06

novels under the pen name Selena

17:09

Montgomery. Selena has

17:11

written eight books, including two

17:13

parts of a trilogy that got put

17:15

on hold after Stacy was elected

17:18

to the Georgia House of Representatives

17:20

in two thousand and seven. I'm

17:22

delighted to be talking to Stacy

17:25

Abrahams again. I

17:27

am going to start

17:30

by asking Stacy,

17:32

this extraordinary person

17:34

whom I have come to not only admire

17:36

but have great affection for, how

17:39

in the world did

17:42

you ever start writing

17:45

romance novels set the stage for us?

17:47

Where were you, what were you doing? And

17:50

why? So? I have

17:52

always loved romance novels. My mom

17:55

and my great aunt Jeanette

17:57

actually collected them. My mom was librarian

18:00

who kept every book she ever had, and my

18:02

great aunt Janette loved them, and so my

18:04

sisters and I really grew up loving romance

18:06

novels. We graduated from Barbara Cartland

18:08

to Harlequin and finally into the Silhouette

18:11

universe, which was spicier. We

18:13

also watched soap operas religiously,

18:15

so we watched ABC, so you know Bryant's

18:18

Hope all my children, but General Hospital

18:20

was where it was at. I was an

18:22

angst written teenager who was not allowed to date till

18:24

I was sixteen. So I wrote my first romance

18:26

novel, which I think was all of like fifteen

18:28

pages, when I was in junior

18:31

high school. But it was in law school

18:33

actually at our mutual alma mater,

18:36

when I decided to

18:38

write a novel. It actually wanted to write

18:40

a spye novel. My plan was to write

18:42

this espionage novel based on my ex

18:44

boyfriends dissertation. He

18:46

was a chemical physicist and he

18:49

did his dissertation on this thing called micro zeolite

18:51

technology. It was an interesting dissertation,

18:54

but the concepts were amazing,

18:56

and so I'm calling him, having been

18:59

one of five people to read his dissertation, saying,

19:01

oh my god, you could do these things with it. And he was like, you

19:03

can't do any of that, Like this is why we broke

19:05

up. You have no imagination. So

19:08

I got ready to write the book. Talked to a

19:10

few friends who were in law school who've

19:12

been publishing, and they said, you're

19:14

never going to sell a spy novel. It's and

19:18

they said, look, publishers don't buy spine

19:20

novels by or about women. They

19:22

said, are you planning for your characters? To look

19:25

like you and like, well yeah, and they said,

19:27

well, then then you're definitely not going to sell it because at

19:29

that point, African American main

19:32

characters in suspense just

19:34

didn't really exist. And so I thought

19:36

about it and being a problem solver, I

19:38

decided, like, I know, I've read

19:41

novels about women spies, not

19:44

anyone black, but I've I've seen it before and I was like,

19:46

wait, it was romance. And so I

19:48

killed the same number of people. I wrote the exact same story.

19:50

I just made my spies fall in up. So

19:54

you decide you're going to do this,

19:56

and when you started thinking about

19:58

it, you knew you wanted your

20:01

character's, particularly your lead

20:03

character, to be an African American

20:05

woman. Absolutely, And is that because you

20:07

had not really seen very

20:10

many characters who look like you in these

20:12

books that you love to read growing up. That

20:15

was a huge part of it, particularly in the romance

20:17

space. I think by

20:21

when I was really working on it, there

20:23

had been perhaps two

20:26

to five women. So Beverly Jenkins,

20:28

who's sort of the godmother of black

20:30

romance, Brenda Jackson, had

20:32

broken through, but most

20:35

black women who were writing in romantic

20:38

veins were either relegated to

20:41

historical fiction, which is what Beverly just

20:43

does so extraordinarily well. And

20:46

then you had on the other side what was

20:48

called urban fiction. And what I

20:50

wanted to do was I wanted to write about a chemical

20:52

physicist. I at one point

20:54

thought I would be a physicist. I

20:56

was, you know, very sad that the CIA never recruited

20:59

me to be a spat And so

21:01

for me, it was as much about

21:04

writing stories that I

21:06

was never given to read, but

21:09

it was also I wanted to write a story

21:11

where I could live out my alternate universe

21:13

fantasy. And it was a multi

21:16

racial coalition of spies

21:18

and my boyfriend is still languishing in prison in the

21:21

in the novel, it

21:23

was a bad came back for lack of imagining.

21:25

It did, and you know, we we we didn't have the

21:28

nicest breakup at the time. We got over it,

21:30

but it was it was it was about situating

21:33

myself and situating my

21:35

community in this space

21:37

that we were able to tell, you

21:39

know, a range of stories, and I

21:41

wanted to be able to see

21:44

myself, see my siblings, see our our

21:46

world included in this broader

21:48

narrative about what it meant to be in fiction.

21:51

I think that first book was that Rules

21:53

of Engagement was at your first one? That was it?

21:55

And so when did you finish that? So

21:57

I finished it during law school. I was

22:00

on an intensive semester, which is this program

22:02

at Yale where you get to go anywhere

22:05

and study. I in contrast

22:07

to my very exotic selection of books,

22:10

I went home to Mississippi to write about the charity

22:12

tax credit that had been passed

22:15

under the Clinton administration. And I

22:17

really want to think about how the charity tax credit worked

22:19

for religious organizations. And

22:21

my parents were both ministers, so I was examining

22:24

that. So I'm writing this very detailed

22:26

treatise on tax policy at the exact

22:28

same time I started writing my novel. And

22:31

one of the moments that I remember

22:33

so clearly, I had sent off

22:35

the first three chapters. Because if you read all the publishers

22:38

weekly tropes about how to sell

22:40

a novel, I sent the first three chapters off and

22:42

it said you you'll expect a response in

22:45

twelve to twenty four weeks.

22:48

I got a response back in six I

22:50

did not have a book, and so I'm

22:53

in the car with my mom and I

22:55

hand her the letter because I'm driving, and she reads

22:57

it to me, and then she says, and there are

23:00

looking forward to receiving the whole novel. And I nearly

23:02

crashed the car on the highway because

23:04

I'm like, oh god, there is no book. So

23:07

I learned I'm a very fast writer. You

23:09

had to be. I did. So. I finished the book

23:12

in about seven weeks that was

23:14

published. And how did because

23:16

I know what you've published? What seven? Is

23:18

that? Right? Eight? One thing

23:20

that strikes me about your novels

23:22

and about the reasons why you do it, I mean

23:24

romance and as you rightly said, thrillers

23:27

spine novels have been historically

23:31

very white, so you're

23:33

venturing into this genre.

23:36

Do you have any idea of the

23:38

tens of thousands of your books that you've sold,

23:41

you know, do you have white readers? Have

23:43

you met people who say, Hey, I

23:45

love your character, or I really

23:47

related to it, or I didn't know what to expect, but I'm

23:50

glad I picked it up. I do. I

23:52

I have two sets of readers that I

23:54

think we're contrary to what was

23:56

expected, because part of the way romance

23:59

sells is the covers exactly and the

24:01

minute a black person, a person

24:03

of colors on the cover, You're

24:05

not only pulled out of the

24:08

romance genre and put on your own special shelf.

24:10

That shelf is usually out of the way. You've got to go look

24:12

for black romance. You have to go look for

24:15

Latino romance or A A p

24:17

I. And so by

24:19

declaring my character race,

24:22

I was removed from the general

24:24

space where I could sell my books. What

24:26

benefited me actually was two

24:29

sets of readers, so white women who would

24:31

write me and tell me I don't usually

24:33

read black romance. And I'm like, there's no

24:35

such thing as black romance. There's romance, and

24:37

the characters happened to be black. Look,

24:40

I mean, the romance in your books is kind of steamy,

24:43

that kinds across every possible

24:45

category. Although I acknowledge

24:47

that for those who were thinking they were going to get steamy your

24:50

My parents are ministers and my mom's church

24:52

used to read my books, so you know, in the

24:54

current universe of steamy, I am tea

24:57

kettle, I am not volcano. So

25:02

but the second group that read my book there was a

25:05

I got this amazing letter, this

25:07

guy who called himself that he was

25:09

the head of the paper bag gang, and I'm

25:11

like, what is this? And This is this white construction

25:14

worker who was

25:16

sick and his wife

25:18

gave him a copy of my book and he was

25:20

like, I don't read this stuff. And

25:22

he was like, she's like, just shut up and read the book.

25:25

And he liked it so much he took

25:27

it with him, but he wanted to rip off the

25:29

cover and his wife was like, no, he's

25:31

hot, you can't take the cover off. And

25:34

so he put it in a brown paper bag and

25:37

he took it to work and he shared it with his

25:39

friends at the construction site and they started

25:42

reading my books. And so I

25:44

know I have cut across you know, demographics

25:47

with my writing. That's

25:49

so great. And you know, part

25:52

of what I've read that you know you've said is

25:54

that you you wanted to show that black

25:56

women were just as adventurous,

25:59

uh and a active as

26:01

any white woman. And the same

26:03

for the men. I mean, you know, the men

26:05

you write about are equally compelling

26:09

and sexy and interesting and

26:11

all the rest. And I want to be clear,

26:13

I do not intend to diminish

26:16

culturally specific writing at all. I

26:18

think it is important, it is relevant,

26:21

it is necessary, but it

26:23

should be the choice of the author, not

26:26

the assumption of the publisher or

26:29

of the bookstore and bookseller

26:31

to say that the only people who would read

26:33

this are people who share your phenotype,

26:37

because I've read everything. I read

26:39

James Joyce, and I read Nora Roberts,

26:42

and i read Walter Mosley and Beverly

26:44

Jenkins, and there is no expectation

26:47

in my mind that I'm not permitted to read

26:49

James Joyce because I'm not a white

26:51

Irish guy. Exactly why would there be

26:54

the presumption that you could not read my books

26:56

simply because I described the characters

26:58

with mocha and chocolates in as

27:00

opposed to pale ivory. Exactly

27:03

how did you come up with your pen name?

27:06

Is there a story behind Montgomery?

27:08

So? As I said, I started writing in

27:11

law school, and as you know, there are two papers you have

27:13

to write. My second paper was

27:15

on the operational dissonance of the unrelated

27:17

business income tax exemption. I

27:20

finished that paper during the

27:22

end of law school. I submitted

27:24

it to the Yale Law and Policy Review

27:27

and they they picked it up. So I was going

27:29

to be published my my first

27:31

publication and tax policy at the

27:33

exact same time that my romance novel

27:36

was going to come to the marketplace. And

27:38

this is all at the time that Google

27:40

was having its debut. If

27:42

Google was going to be this real thing, if

27:45

you looked up my name trying to buy

27:47

my romance novel, you would likely pick

27:49

up my tax policy. And

27:52

I didn't think anyone was interested in reading Romance

27:54

by Alan Greenspan, and so I

27:57

like, well, I'll come up in the new name. I was watching an A

27:59

and E biography of Elizabeth Montgomery,

28:01

who played Samantha on Bewitched, and

28:04

I was like, I like Montgomery, and I thought

28:06

about her her evil cousin,

28:08

Serena, and I was like, I don't like Serena, but

28:10

Selena. And so I became Selena Montgomery.

28:13

It was about two thirty in the morning, so the story was

28:15

much more interesting at night than it is in the daytime.

28:17

But that's how I became Selena Montgomery. And

28:20

I assumed Google has figured that out,

28:22

so people now google

28:25

you. Stacy Abrahams saw her

28:27

on TV. Love what she said, Selena

28:30

may pop up. So there's a little cognitive dissonance

28:32

going on there. But I was never ashamed

28:35

of it because part of the reason I

28:37

loved writing these stories is that there's

28:40

a humanity to romance. There's a humanity

28:43

to talking about as you said, you know, flawed,

28:46

intelligent, interesting people.

28:49

And in the process of writing, I was

28:51

connected even more deeply to

28:53

the people I wanted to serve, to the people I

28:56

lived with and around, and

28:58

for me was ever a moment

29:00

of shame. I mean, it's fantastic

29:03

writing, but think about it. I mean, when

29:05

you strip it all away, people's

29:07

relationships, obviously their love

29:09

relationships, but also their family relationships.

29:13

You have a great character in Reckless

29:15

Um who's a criminal defense lawyer

29:17

who had been orphaned, her relationship

29:20

with the woman who took her in.

29:22

I mean, building relationships

29:24

and then centering the love interest

29:27

in the broader relational

29:30

situation. I mean, that's how

29:32

we live, that's who we are.

29:35

But your last Selena Montgomery

29:38

novel came out in two thousand and nine.

29:41

So for all those readers out there,

29:43

for the paperbag guys, for

29:45

everybody else, have you

29:47

retired from writing romantic

29:51

novels or should we expect to come back?

29:53

So here's what happened. The next

29:55

novel, the third in the trilogy,

29:58

was going to be written in but that was

30:00

the year I got elected as Leader of the House

30:02

Democrats. I started a new financial

30:04

services company, and I

30:07

kind of ran out a little bit of time because

30:09

they wanted me not just to commit to that book

30:12

until multi year contract or

30:14

multi book contract, and I try

30:16

to be thoughtful. What I

30:18

did that was thoughtless was that I did not

30:21

tell the story of the final character in the trilogy.

30:23

So I promise I'll get it done. And so Selina

30:25

will make her final bow sometime

30:28

soon, as soon as I find some time to get it done. But

30:30

Stacy will be writing under her multiple

30:33

personalities for as long as I

30:35

have breath. Sounds like a plan to

30:37

me, my friend. Thank you so

30:39

much, Stacy, and keep going,

30:42

stay well. It has been a delight. Thank you so

30:44

much to Madame Secretary.

30:50

You can find Stacy's romance novels

30:52

under her pen name Selina Montgomery,

30:55

and they make great holiday gifts

30:57

and I love this. She reads

31:00

only joined a group of her fellow

31:02

romance novelists in fundraising

31:04

for Georgia Democrats.

31:06

The effort is called Romancing

31:09

the Runoff. My

31:13

last guest today is only fifteen years

31:15

old, but boy has she accomplished

31:17

a lot in those fifteen years.

31:20

Right after graduating from fifth

31:22

grade, Marley Das pointed

31:24

out to her parents that none of

31:27

the characters and the books that she read

31:29

at school looked like her,

31:32

so she started the one Thousand Black

31:34

Girl Books campaign to fill

31:36

school libraries and curriculums

31:39

with children's books that feature black

31:41

girls as the lead protagonists.

31:45

Since then, she's written her own book called

31:47

Marley Days, Gets It Done and

31:49

so can You. And in

31:52

addition to all of that, she

31:54

has a fantastic show on Netflix

31:57

called book Marks that's all about

31:59

books and reading. And

32:01

I also loved seeing her featured

32:04

at the Democratic National Convention

32:06

this summer, Marley, I

32:08

could not be happier to talk with

32:11

you again. I loved seeing

32:13

you featured at the Democratic

32:16

Convention. That was really fun to

32:18

watch. I hope it was fun for you. It

32:20

was. I was definitely nervous and I was

32:22

apprehensive about it, but it was so cool

32:24

to see that like I represented New Jersey,

32:27

I represented young people, and I represented

32:29

girls, So it was a lot of fun. That is

32:31

so great. Well, I want to

32:33

talk with you about a lot of different

32:35

things, but I'm going to start with

32:38

one of my favorite subjects and yours, and

32:40

that is reading. And I

32:43

love that. Ever since you were a little

32:45

girl, reading has been important

32:48

to you. Do you remember

32:50

the first character in a book

32:52

that you saw yourself in? So

32:55

I had a lot of opportunities as a little kid

32:57

to see myself, and I think for me, presentation

33:00

was never an issue in my home, but it was an issue

33:02

in my school. So whenever

33:04

I would go to my local bookstore, my parents,

33:07

whatever age I was, I would get that many

33:09

books. So when I was too they would buy two

33:11

books. But I remember that I kind of started to get

33:13

hooked when my dad would only take me because

33:15

it was at ten, and my mom was like, I'm not paying

33:17

for ten books now, I'm not doing that.

33:20

So I think I always had a love for reading,

33:22

and my parents had really like fostered that within

33:25

me by you know, making it a gift rather than

33:27

a punishment. Um. But then when I got to

33:29

school, everything was assigned. We didn't

33:31

have a say. I couldn't choose how many

33:33

or when I wanted to read. I just had to

33:35

do it when I was told to. And that can definitely

33:38

stifle and limit some students, especially

33:40

if their parents can't afford or don't

33:42

have access to books in their home. So

33:44

for me, it was like then when I had the opportunity

33:46

to kind of have those rigid lines and rules,

33:49

they didn't allow for me to see myself. I felt

33:51

like the rules were kind of misrepresenting

33:53

the student body, who I was and what I believed

33:56

in. Well, and then you decided to do something

33:58

about it. Yeah, Well, my mom and pushed me to

34:01

which is what I really admired

34:04

and how I first heard about you. What

34:06

started your campaign that led to

34:09

one thousand you know, black girl books,

34:11

hashtag and program and and

34:13

and books and everything else that you've

34:15

been doing. Yeah, the campaign has evolved

34:17

so much from the beginning, but it was essentially

34:19

that, you know, I had to go to school. Reading

34:22

became a heavy push, especially towards

34:24

the endevelopmentary school. But the books never

34:26

had black girls as the main character. And

34:29

if I wanted to change my library, my parents

34:31

could do that easily. But when I complained to

34:33

my mom, she kind of explained to me that this

34:35

issue can affect you, but also think about

34:37

the kids that don't have that access, and

34:39

she encouraged me to do something about it because she

34:41

doesn't like to hear me complain. It's just

34:43

a simple parent wanting to solve a problem.

34:45

That she was tired of me complaining, so

34:48

we thought about it more. We did research, and we

34:50

learned that both with the publishing houses,

34:52

curriculums that are made and teachers,

34:55

books are not being pushed that have diverse

34:57

characters, and we need to push all types of

34:59

stories, not stories of black girls. So

35:01

I wanted to collect one thousand books where black

35:03

girls were the main characters to solve the issue

35:05

in my school, but then also to help kids

35:08

in Jamaica and then all across the world and

35:10

the country to see themselves and to see

35:12

people that are not like them. We'll

35:14

be right back, we'll

35:17

explain exactly what you

35:19

have accomplished. So one thousand black girl

35:21

books has now kind of stemmed off into so many

35:24

other things. But first the first goal

35:26

is to collect and donate books where black girls in

35:28

the main characters. Then we extended

35:30

which we as me and my mom because she helps me

35:32

do everything and I don't know everything. Then

35:34

she helped me with coming up with the resource guide

35:37

that has a list of a thousand books that

35:39

we have collected, so the titles, the author,

35:41

the age level, so that teachers and educators

35:44

can find these books and they don't have the excuse

35:46

that there are none out there, because you know, through

35:48

my work, I realized there are a ton out there, they're

35:51

just not in schools. And now it's kind

35:53

of transformed into me writing my own book, which

35:55

was to encourage people my age to believe

35:57

that they like to play basketball, they like to saying

36:00

if they like to draw all these interests

36:02

and my love of reading can be used to

36:04

help other people, and they're not limited

36:06

to. Social activism is completely separate

36:08

from liking things and having fun things to do

36:11

in your hobbies and activities. That's

36:13

a really important point Marley, that

36:16

you know sometimes people feel like, well,

36:19

social activism, you know, civic

36:21

change, political campaigns,

36:23

everything that goes on somewhere else is

36:26

not really relevant to your life. But

36:28

in fact, whatever you care about,

36:31

you can find a way

36:33

of expressing that and helping

36:36

other people to care as well. I

36:38

think that's part of what you have proved with your campaign.

36:41

In fact, I need to congratulate you because

36:43

you're the host of a new show on Netflix.

36:46

Yes, I have a big deal called

36:49

Bookmarks. Tell us about that. Where

36:51

did the idea come from? And who are some

36:53

of the cool interesting

36:55

people that you've got to meet through this. So

36:58

it's been a crazy experience because I've

37:00

always had opportunities and sometimes, you

37:02

know, I get stuff on my my emails are

37:04

like, oh, we want you to be an actor and a model,

37:06

and I'm like, I don't do those things. This is not

37:09

what Riley dies tres me yourself.

37:11

But I like being a host and I

37:13

like bringing other ideas to the table, and that's

37:16

kind of what I've had to do over the past couple of

37:18

years. So when it came for an opportunity to

37:20

do something with Netflix, I knew it had

37:22

to be surrounded by books. I knew it had

37:24

to be there. Either had to be about social

37:26

change or books. And a book show

37:28

came onto our desk, and it was really important

37:30

for me to focus on making sure that we had

37:33

black celebrities reading books about

37:35

black kids two families all

37:37

over the world, and some of the books talk

37:39

specifically about being anti racist

37:41

and the civil rights movement, but other books

37:44

are about loving who you are and appreciating

37:46

all of your imperfections. So um, they're

37:48

experiences that can relate to everybody, and experiences

37:51

that can inform you know, young kids and are

37:53

three to eight and with really fun pictures

37:55

and animations and funky outfits

37:58

and music. Another cool thing

38:00

about it is that we also have the episodes

38:02

available on YouTube, so that teachers

38:04

don't have to use their personal Netflix accounts to

38:06

show it to their students. So I pushed,

38:09

you know, I have an executive producer credit as well,

38:11

and I wanted to make sure that it was accessible to

38:13

all the kids out there. That is terrific.

38:16

Well, you know, one of the reasons that I wanted

38:18

to talk with you is because we're all socially

38:20

distancing. There's a lot of remote learning

38:22

going on, and I think

38:25

not only I, but our listeners would really

38:27

like some book recommendations. So what

38:29

have you been reading these days and what

38:31

would you recommend to not only

38:33

the adults listening, but younger people and even

38:36

kids. So to all the parents listening.

38:38

The first picture book that I want to recommend,

38:40

Grace for President by Katie de Puccio,

38:43

is such a good book. It's about a young girl who's

38:45

running for president in her class and can hopefully

38:47

encourage, you know, talk about leadership, talk

38:50

about education. So I love

38:52

that book for young kids, and I know you're a grandma,

38:54

so it's a great, great

38:56

book. Well, I'm definitely getting that

38:58

one. That's a subject of very near and dear

39:00

to uh to my heart.

39:04

Give me some other recommendations for

39:07

you know, older kids, teenagers, adults,

39:09

and particularly in light of everything

39:11

going on right now in the world. There's so

39:14

many challenges from obviously

39:16

the pandemic, to the you know, the

39:18

racial reckoning that we've got

39:21

to finally as a country be willing

39:23

to address and deal with, to

39:25

the economic crisis that has you

39:28

know, ripped away a lot of people's jobs and livelihoods.

39:30

Do you have any recommendations for books that

39:33

you think are particularly of this moment

39:35

for different age readers. So I think

39:37

a book that for me is of this moment

39:39

because my mom she made me read it a couple

39:41

of months ago, and I think it helped me a

39:43

lot is the Autobiography of Malcolm

39:46

X. It's not a black girl book, but it

39:48

is a book about a black man, and it's as told

39:50

to by Alex Haley, and I think it does two

39:52

things for me personally. It took a really

39:54

close look at how lonely leadership can

39:56

be, and I think it took into consideration

39:59

how some of us sometimes have to make tough

40:01

decisions under a lot of pressure and

40:03

are judged heavily for who we are and how

40:05

we deal with that and the pains

40:07

of sometimes and we don't even think about the people

40:09

that you know lead our world in small ways,

40:12

you know, our church group leader, our best friends,

40:14

the people that we look up to, um, how

40:16

they suffer a lot and trying to give

40:18

back to others. Um. And it also takes a

40:20

look at how, in many eyes Malcolm

40:23

X was seen as a radical, but you know, the public

40:25

perception versus reality, and who he

40:27

was as a sensitive man who cared

40:29

for his wife and was scared for his children

40:32

and their protection. So I

40:34

love that book because I think even though I

40:36

couldn't relate to Malcolm X's struggles,

40:38

I felt like I understood the point

40:40

of where leadership can really take a toll on the

40:42

body and and make time

40:44

feel like it's longer than it is so for

40:46

teenagers and adults and basically

40:49

all kids, but not little kids. Well,

40:52

but look, I am a big reader of biography

40:55

because I do find a

40:57

lot of lessons in how

41:00

other people have faced challenges,

41:03

setbacks, disappointments, all

41:05

the you know, really difficult moments

41:07

in life. You know, Nelson Mandela

41:09

is somebody who I was privileged to

41:11

meet and learn a great deal from

41:14

his long walk to freedom. Uh,

41:17

you know as a book that you know talks about how

41:19

this little kid grew

41:21

up to have the capacity,

41:23

the strength, the principles

41:26

to withstand, you

41:28

know, all those years in jail and then

41:30

to lead what was indeed

41:32

a peaceful revolution. So there's lots

41:35

of that, and I think you're

41:37

right to say, look, what can we learn about

41:39

the struggles that individuals

41:42

go through, black, white, every background,

41:45

but particularly as you understood

41:47

at a very young age, you know, you

41:49

can't be which you can't see, and so

41:52

representation in the

41:54

arts, in obviously books,

41:56

but way beyond books is so critical.

42:00

You know. In your book, in your introduction,

42:02

which I really love you

42:04

basically as an author, say what

42:06

you need to read this book is,

42:09

and then you list any dream worth

42:11

following, a strong belief

42:14

in something, preferably yourself

42:16

and your community, a right sized

42:19

ego, no room for divas

42:21

when it comes to activism, patience,

42:24

curiosity, people who

42:26

love you, and trusted adults

42:29

who want to help you succeed. I

42:31

thought that was a pretty good summary

42:33

for not just activism

42:36

but for life, how did you pull all

42:38

that together? So I have all

42:40

these kind of checklists in my mind about things

42:42

that I need and you know, same thing you read out

42:45

of the door, you're like while it keys phone for me.

42:47

My mom always tries to prepare me with you know, calm,

42:49

confident, you know, you know what you're talking about. She

42:52

never leaves me in a space where I'm unprepared,

42:54

and I think, you know, although I'm not a parent,

42:56

I feel like one thing I could do and I tried to do

42:58

throughout the whole book, is to equip kids

43:01

with tools. I think my favorite one in there

43:03

is is about the ego and the right side to ego,

43:05

because I have to believe in myself,

43:07

and you really do have to you know, know what

43:09

you're talking about and feel like it's not

43:12

not just an inflation of self. Rather you're filling

43:14

yourself up with what you need to succeed. So

43:16

I never give myself too much credit, and sometimes

43:18

I don't give myself enough credit, but I

43:21

try my best to always know that, especially

43:23

in faces of someone where they you can tell that they're

43:25

not as confident in what I'm saying, They're not necessarily

43:28

as interested that I'm interested and I

43:30

know what I want to say, so it's enough

43:32

for me to continue forward. Well,

43:34

I can only say amen to that, Marley,

43:36

and I just love the

43:38

chance to talk to you again. And I want to

43:41

not only encourage all of our listeners

43:43

to tune into Netflix or YouTube

43:46

to see bookmarks and understand you

43:48

know what you're trying to do, to give

43:50

a platform for books

43:52

that you know really are not

43:55

just representative or diverse,

43:57

but good books, good books with great

43:59

stories and great characters that

44:01

can change lives. And I want

44:03

to commend you for this book. Marley

44:06

Das gets it done, and so can

44:08

you. If you have young people in your life,

44:10

please find out about the one

44:12

Thousand Black Girls books, and

44:15

also about Marley's commitment,

44:17

her mission to try to really

44:20

lift up reading and the joy

44:23

the experience in in life

44:25

that you can get through reading, that you don't

44:27

have to necessarily go off and do yourself, because

44:29

you can live it through somebody else. So

44:32

I just can't thank you enough for talking to me today,

44:34

Marley. Thank you so much. Well,

44:40

thanks for joining me and listening to

44:42

my conversations with these three

44:44

amazing writers. I

44:47

hope that you're reading something that is

44:50

occupying your time and entertaining

44:52

and informing you. I have a

44:54

whole nightstand filled

44:56

with books that I'm trying to get through during

44:59

the this winter when we're still

45:02

all inside trying to avoid

45:04

the virus. I know that I've

45:06

really read probably more

45:09

this past eight months than I

45:11

have in the prior eight years,

45:13

because I had the time, and

45:15

I hope you two will have

45:18

the time to read, and if

45:20

you've got little kids around, read

45:22

to them. I've done a lot of reading with my

45:24

grandchildren, kind of pulling every

45:27

children's book off of my shelf.

45:29

Because it's gonna be a long winter. And

45:32

this is the last episode of

45:34

our first season of our podcast,

45:36

You and Me Both. We'll be back

45:38

though. We're kicking off season

45:41

two on February sixteen with

45:43

more inspiring guests, no

45:45

holds barred conversations, and

45:47

yes, even a few surprises.

45:50

Until then, I hope that you

45:52

stay safe and healthy, catch up

45:54

on any of the podcast episodes

45:57

you missed, and of course,

45:59

you know, lose yourself in a book or

46:01

two. You

46:04

and Me Both is brought to you by I Heart

46:06

Radio. We're produced by

46:08

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46:11

with help from Juma Aberdeen, Nikki

46:14

e Tour, Oscar Flores, Brianna

46:17

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46:19

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46:21

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46:24

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46:26

music is by Forest Gray.

46:29

If you like you and me both, share it with

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46:33

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46:36

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46:38

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46:40

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46:43

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46:45

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46:48

and we would love to hear from you. Send

46:50

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46:52

recommendations to you and me both

46:55

pod at gmail dot com.

46:57

I loved getting your emails and was

46:59

a sp actually moved by the stories

47:02

that so many listeners shared after

47:04

our episode on mental health. Thanks

47:07

for listening, See you next year.