0:00

You and Me Both is a production of

0:02

I Heart Radio. I'm

0:06

Hillary Clinton and this is You and

0:08

Me Both. Today, I'm

0:10

talking to people with firsthand

0:12

experience doing hard things. And

0:15

you know what, maybe the hardest thing

0:17

that any of us has to do is being

0:20

true to ourselves. People

0:23

tell you that, but boy, when

0:25

it comes down to it, making decisions

0:28

about who you are, how you

0:30

think about your life, what you want to

0:32

stand up for, these are really

0:34

hard decisions. And I thought

0:36

it would be great to talk to a couple of people

0:39

who have lived through that. I'll

0:44

be talking with one of my

0:46

favorite couples, Abby Wombach

0:49

and Glennon Doyle and wait

0:52

till you hear their story. It's

0:54

so multidimensional, it's got so

0:57

many hard things in

0:59

it, and I just love

1:01

hearing from both of them. But first,

1:04

I'm talking to Bobby Burke.

1:07

You may know him as the interior

1:09

design expert on the Netflix

1:11

series queer Ie, and if you've

1:13

ever watched the show, you know Bobby

1:16

can do hard things because

1:18

in a matter of days, he transforms

1:21

important spaces in people's lives

1:24

into places that are both beautiful

1:26

and functional. But what you

1:28

may not know is that long before

1:31

queer. I Bobby transformed

1:33

his own life. I'm

1:36

so excited to be welcoming

1:38

you to the show, Bobby. And first of all,

1:40

how are you doing? Where are you that

1:42

we're still in the I hope

1:44

tail end, but still in the pandemic.

1:47

I'm actually home in l A. You know, people

1:49

ask if my life has changed a lot during the pandemic,

1:51

and obviously it has because I'm traveling wait less for work.

1:54

But normally when I'm home, like, I don't

1:56

weave the house. I'm like, what, I'm home, It's it's

1:58

pretty much the same for me. I don't go out

2:00

much. Well,

2:02

you are well acquainted with doing

2:05

hard things. You had to become an

2:07

expert on that early

2:09

on. You left home at a very

2:11

young age, I think, right, can

2:14

you describe what led you to make that really

2:16

hard decision. I

2:18

mean, there were a lot of reasons. Um.

2:21

The main reason though, was knowing

2:23

that I was gay, knowing that coming

2:26

out in my home, coming

2:28

out in this very small religious

2:30

community that I was a part of, wasn't

2:32

an option. But I also knew

2:34

that staying in the closet and wearing that mask

2:37

every single day of not one person

2:39

in the world knowing who I was, it was very lonely.

2:41

So was either come out and

2:44

risk somebody else to be

2:46

frank probably killing me. You know. Somebody

2:48

came out in my high school and some guys

2:50

ran him off the road one night. So for me,

2:52

it was come out at home and

2:55

Lord knows what I go through, or stay

2:58

in the closet and you know, think

3:00

about doing bad things to myself, you know.

3:02

And I think that's why there's such a high rate of suicide

3:05

and the LGBTQ youth in America

3:07

is because you are programmed

3:10

to believe your entire life that you are

3:12

something bad. And then finally, one day

3:15

at fifteen, you know, through meeting

3:17

some people online who helped me accept

3:20

who I was and that I wasn't a bad

3:22

person, I decided to leave Um.

3:25

It was a catalyst. My my parents and I really were getting

3:27

along at that time. You know, I was. I was an

3:29

angry team, which happens

3:32

when you put on that mask every single day

3:34

and you pretend to be somebody else that society

3:36

tells you that you should be. So I

3:38

got an argue with my parents one night, and

3:41

their line was always, if you don't like our rules,

3:43

there at the door, and so that

3:46

night I took the door and I

3:48

never went back. And where did you go

3:51

that night? I I You know, I landed on a

3:53

friend sofa, which I stayed on

3:55

for a few months. And then I ended up in Springfield,

3:57

Missouri, UM, the big city of two

4:00

people. Oh I've been there. Yeah, I'm sure you

4:03

have. You're from not too far from there, that's

4:05

right. So I ended up there. I enrolled

4:07

myself in high school, but I quickly realized

4:10

that I was not able to pay the

4:12

bills and put a roof over my head and

4:14

stay in school. So I actually dropped out of school

4:16

at sixteen, and I started

4:18

selling long distance at m C I. So you

4:20

might have gotten a call from me back then to try to switch

4:22

your long distance service. Well,

4:26

I can't remember whether I did or not. You

4:30

know, you found your way finally to

4:32

New York, right, you know, if you can make it there,

4:35

you can make it anywhere. It's funny you should

4:37

say that, because then fast forward.

4:40

You know, I moved to New York with a hundred bucks in a suitcase,

4:43

and I built my own brand, my own company,

4:45

and my own retail stores. And I remember I

4:48

was on my way to the airport and

4:50

a car service. And you know again that that's

4:52

a huge thing for me back then, because when

4:54

I first moved to New York, I had to walk around the city

4:57

to look for a job because I couldn't eat them for the subway.

4:59

So I was in a car on my way to the

5:01

airport to fly to l A for the opening

5:03

of my Los Angeles store, and

5:05

Alicia Keys came on that New

5:08

York song and I just start

5:10

bawling in the car, and I just think

5:12

of the song and the poor drivers, like, oh my

5:14

god, you know what's going on with this guy. But

5:17

it was just such a moment for me

5:20

to hear that song and realize,

5:22

you know, if you can make it in New York, you can make it

5:24

anywhere. That story and not that

5:26

you know you've got it to go to New York to make it anywhere,

5:28

but it definitely making it New York

5:31

makes it a little easier other places.

5:33

Well, did you ever reconcile with your family?

5:36

Um? A few years after I left, my

5:38

parents called me and they're like, you know, we're sorry,

5:40

We're sorry, we were bad parents, were sorry,

5:43

we didn't know how to deal with you.

5:45

Um, And we reconciled and now we're very

5:48

very close. And my parents have come such a

5:50

long way. You know, my parents

5:52

have come from being very anti

5:55

it's okay, and homophobic. So now,

5:57

like my dad, anytime I'm on the phone with

6:00

with FaceTime, my husband's name is Dewey.

6:02

My dad called him do Do and he's like, where's

6:04

do? Do you know? He does? He loves my

6:06

husband, I think almost more than

6:08

me. They've come so far both

6:12

you know, religiously and politically. Um.

6:14

You know, they're in a very very red

6:17

state and I know unfortunately

6:20

who they voted for back in But

6:23

a phone call a few weeks ago, my eighty

6:25

year old cowboy dad said, I

6:28

want you to know I didn't vote

6:30

for him, just for you, just

6:33

you, I didn't vote for him. He's like, I didn't

6:35

vote for the other guy either, but I didn't vote

6:37

for him. And I'm like, well, you know what that

6:39

is a start. You know a lot of people

6:42

say you have the hardest job

6:44

on Queer. I. You know, you have to go into

6:46

people's homes, you have to completely

6:48

gut and redo an

6:51

incredibly short time. Well, other

6:53

members of the Fab five or you

6:55

know, giving haircuts, Um, do you

6:58

get fair to say that, know,

7:00

what you have to do is the

7:02

hardest of the jobs. And have you ever

7:04

felt totally overwhelmed by what you're facing?

7:07

You know, I, I might have the most

7:09

time consuming job on the show,

7:12

but I wouldn't say it's the hardest job. And

7:14

I knew what I was getting into going into it. You know,

7:16

I I have a design business. This is actually

7:18

what I do for a living, So I knew

7:21

it wasn't gonna be easy. I knew it was going to be the

7:23

most time consuming and I'd be working, you

7:25

know, quote unquote physically working more than

7:27

them, but every

7:29

single one of us. If we didn't do what we

7:31

did, the show wouldn't be what it was. And

7:34

you know, often I would say Karamo's

7:36

job is the hardest. He's the one that really has to crack

7:38

them emotionally when these people have up

7:41

walls. I mean, that's the reason why they're on this

7:43

show, is where you're to help them emotionally,

7:45

Like I'm just using a tear design

7:47

to trick them into opening up about stuff.

7:50

You know, his his sometimes is

7:52

the real I would say hardest. Have

7:55

you always had an eye for design? Is that

7:57

something that you knew about yourself

7:59

as as a child or a young man, you

8:02

know. When I was little, I still remember,

8:04

I don't know if you remember Ben Franklin's. I don't

8:06

know if you had those in Arkansas. We did.

8:09

We would go into Ben Franklin all the time because

8:11

my mom was a big sewer and she made a lot of our clothes,

8:14

and she even made I don't know if you remember back

8:16

in the day with cabbage Patch kids were so popular,

8:19

but we couldn't afford a real cabbage Patch kids.

8:21

So you could buy and Ben Franklin you could buy the

8:23

heads and then my mom would make the bodies.

8:26

And so we were always in Ben Franklin and she

8:28

was buying fabric to make his clothes. And

8:30

I remember I would go through there and then in the decor

8:32

section and I would always love that. And

8:34

I was probably five years old

8:36

the first time that I wanted to redo

8:38

my room. I found a poster in Ben Franklin

8:41

and it was this dinosaur poster

8:43

kind of cartoon is Trying. And I

8:45

talked to my mom and say getting that. I think I

8:47

used birthday money to buy it, and

8:50

I I coordinated everything in

8:52

the room from bedspreads and pillows, to curtains,

8:55

to the colors in that dinosaur

8:57

poster. And I, you know, growing

8:59

up up in you know, it was a small farming

9:02

town in Missouri, design

9:04

wasn't a thing. You know, there was home

9:06

interior parties that my mom would

9:09

have, but it wasn't really

9:11

something I thought of as a career. The d of the only

9:13

designers I saw were designing women, you

9:15

know on television that show, you know,

9:17

Delta Burke. Uh. You

9:20

know, there were no interior designers

9:22

in Mount Vernon, Missouri. And

9:24

it wasn't until my

9:27

early teens when I walked

9:29

into Target and I saw their

9:31

very first design collaboration, which was

9:33

with Michael Graves. And that book behind me that

9:35

you can see is the and of the

9:38

twentieth anniversary collection

9:40

of Targets Collaborations with designers.

9:44

And the reason why I bring that up is because

9:46

that collaboration is what inspired me to be

9:48

a designer. That collaboration was the first

9:50

time I looked at a spoon

9:53

and I thought, Huh, spoons aren't

9:55

just utilitarian. Spoons can actually

9:58

spark joy. Spoons can look

10:00

cool, a toaster can look cool. And

10:02

so that moment twenty

10:04

two years ago now inspired me to be a designer

10:07

and I'm in this book. Oh

10:10

that's so touching. Such a full

10:12

circle moment of that collaboration

10:15

and that architect and target really

10:18

going out on a limb to try to be different

10:20

and democratized design is what inspired

10:22

me. And then to be full circle to be able

10:25

to be a part of that book was just mind

10:27

blowing. It sounds like you've

10:29

really thought hard about

10:31

who you are, what you do, how

10:34

you interact with people. And I want to

10:36

just go back to the point

10:38

you made earlier about how

10:41

difficult the church that

10:43

you were part of when you were a young boy

10:46

made it for you becoming who

10:48

you were, accepting who you were. You

10:50

know, if God doesn't make mistakes, then you

10:52

know, guess what. God doesn't make mistakes,

10:54

and it shouldn't be you know, conditioned

10:57

by somebody, that's

11:00

right, So you know, one of the hardest things

11:03

you had to do, I've read, is to you

11:06

know, navigate your relationship

11:08

often challenging, sometimes hurtful

11:11

to religion. And in

11:13

the course of your work, though I've

11:15

noticed on Queer I you found

11:18

yourself working with deeply religious

11:20

people and even redesigning

11:22

churches so how did you come

11:24

to do that and what did it make

11:27

you feel as you went through that. You

11:29

know, the first episode that we did in a church

11:32

was Mama Tammy, and that

11:34

episode was sprung on us the week

11:37

before, and normally we

11:39

know what's going on a few weeks out, but

11:42

there was somebody who was supposed to be in that episode

11:45

and they had a health emergency,

11:47

and so our executive producers

11:49

had to very quickly try to recast,

11:53

and Mama Tammy got cast, and

11:55

I mean, I'm so glad she did. But

11:58

I had told Netflix because

12:00

I had total executive producers in the very

12:02

beginning, when we had our very first lunch after I

12:04

got casts, and I'm like, I'll do anything

12:06

you guys want. I'll go into any situation.

12:09

My one non negotiable

12:12

is do not ask me to go

12:14

into a church. And

12:16

they did very good of steering clear

12:18

of religion until this last episode.

12:22

And I was told you're gonna

12:24

be redoing a community center,

12:26

and my you know, design producer

12:29

leans over and he's like, don't believe it.

12:31

It's a church. It's not a community

12:33

center. You know. Producers

12:35

were then like, yeah, you know, it's a community center.

12:38

Next to a church, and

12:40

I'm like, girl, I grew up in a church.

12:42

I know that that's just the fellowship hall. Don't

12:45

try to tell me it's a community center.

12:47

So I refused to do the episode. And

12:50

I'm like, I I told you guys, this was my

12:52

one non negotiable. I have been through

12:54

an emotional roller coaster doing the show

12:56

the last year, and I

12:58

know what I need to stay

13:00

no to for my own mental health. I'm like, this

13:02

is going to break me. And

13:05

you know, there was a lot of back and forth,

13:08

and I got called by one

13:10

of the guys, Joel at the

13:13

at Scout Productions, the creators of

13:15

the show, and he went

13:17

through a lot of the same emotional

13:19

trauma that I went through in a church, you

13:21

know, growing up your entire life being

13:24

taught to hate yourself,

13:28

being taught to know

13:30

that when you die you're gonna burn in hell, and

13:34

begging and pleading for God to change

13:36

you, but he's not, and

13:39

so you just you hate yourself

13:41

and you hate yourself, and to be honest, you never

13:44

get over that. You can come

13:46

to terms with it a bit, but you never get

13:48

over it. And so he called me and

13:50

he's like, I get it. You

13:53

know, I fully understand why you would

13:55

never want to walk into that church, why you would never want to

13:57

help the people who damaged

14:00

you, who are probably damaging kids

14:02

in their church right now. But that is exactly

14:04

why you need to do it. You

14:06

need to do it for all the little Bobbies

14:09

and the little Joels still sitting

14:11

in churches being taught to

14:13

hate themselves. And so

14:15

reluctantly I did it. And I don't know if

14:17

you've seen that episode, but in the beginning of

14:19

the episode, you know, the guy,

14:21

the construction guy, was like, oh, come on into the church.

14:24

I want to show you all the other

14:26

boys went in and I refused.

14:28

And it wasn't in a dramatic way. It was

14:30

just like I stood outside the front door

14:32

and I'm like, I'm good, thank you, and he was

14:34

like, well, no, you know, come on in. I was like, I'm

14:36

good, thank you. And to be honest, I I came

14:39

under some some angry

14:41

flak from some some people

14:43

high ups not at Netflix that were

14:46

quite angry with me for offensively

14:48

not walking in that church. And

14:52

at the end of the day I was so and at

14:54

the end of the day they were glad. Actually I didn't as

14:56

well, because it it really proved

14:58

a point to people, and it showed that

15:02

you can without

15:04

anger and without strife

15:06

and fighting, just stay

15:08

true to yourself and know the things

15:11

that will break you and your mental

15:13

health. And I think it showed a lot of people that

15:15

it is okay to

15:17

have a different point of view, but to

15:19

coexist. It's okay. You know what, I'm gonna

15:21

go in and I'm gonna help this church, but I'm going

15:24

to know where the line is for me, you

15:26

know. And at the end of the day,

15:29

the amount of d m

15:31

s and emails and letters that I

15:33

have received from people and pastors,

15:36

pastors who have messaged me and have said

15:39

my entire life in church, I

15:41

grew up being taught and believing that

15:44

gays weren't abomination, that you were evil,

15:46

that you chose to be

15:48

gay, And I, in turn,

15:50

have preached that same hate in

15:53

my church. And I am now

15:55

devastated with myself for the damage

15:58

that I have done two kids. And

16:00

I will never again preach that in my church

16:02

again. You know, it was, honestly,

16:06

it was emotional trauma doing

16:08

that. And you know, because

16:12

you were so honest in the beginning,

16:14

you know, the viewer could follow not

16:17

just the experience of the

16:19

episode, but the arc of your

16:22

you know, reactions and how you

16:24

dealt with it. And isn't it the case

16:26

that Mama Tammy's

16:29

son is gay. Yes. So

16:31

one of the reasons why Mama Tammy

16:34

was chosen is because Miles

16:36

had come out a few years before that and

16:39

she didn't disown him, but it didn't

16:42

go well. You know, he left home,

16:44

he went off to school. He

16:46

was also one of those kids who grew up

16:48

in church every single day

16:50

and when he came out, he was shunned.

16:53

So one of the reasons why they

16:55

were chosen is because we wanted to help

16:57

Mama Tammy except Miles,

16:59

and we also wanted to help Miles kind

17:02

of deal with the pain that he went through

17:04

of having a group of people who were supposed

17:06

to love you one conditionally and you devoted your entire

17:09

life to all of a sudden turn their back on you

17:11

the moment they find out who you are. Um

17:14

So, through a lot of talk with Loma Tammy,

17:16

who is a lovely, wonderful person, she

17:19

realized where she failed him,

17:22

and that final scene of that episode

17:24

where she stands up and witnesses

17:26

in her church and she's like, you cannot

17:29

claim to love Jesus and

17:32

not love gay people. You cannot be

17:34

a Christian and not love

17:37

gay people. Was such

17:39

an amazing moment. We're

17:43

taking a quick break. Stay with us. You

17:55

know, people change, they

17:57

grow, they absorb, they

18:00

evolve. However we want to talk about

18:02

it. I certainly have, everybody I know

18:05

has, But that requires an open

18:07

mind and a willingness to move on

18:09

from where you were. And

18:11

for the church to be close

18:13

to that is incredibly profoundly

18:16

sad to me because the church is

18:18

in many ways a place of refuge

18:21

for people, but so are people's homes.

18:24

And you spend your life

18:26

which is really a calling, Bobby. It's

18:28

a calling to help people make

18:31

their homes places of security,

18:33

comfort and beauty. But during

18:35

this pandemic, where people

18:38

have been at home so

18:40

much, how have you talked

18:42

to them? How have you even thought about it that

18:45

you could help people kind of

18:47

make their homes places they want

18:49

to be after having been in them

18:51

under such really difficult circumstances.

18:55

I would say start with something small.

18:57

Organization is the best thing. Don't worry about

18:59

the sign. You don't have to stress yourself out of Oh

19:02

I don't know how to place things. Just start

19:04

by organizing things. Start with that junk

19:06

drawer in the kitchen. We all have that drunk tour

19:08

that collects everything. Go through

19:11

that, get rid of the things you don't need, and

19:13

that will be a sense of accomplishment and you'll

19:16

realize, oh, I can do this, and then

19:18

I'm going to move on to the rest of the cabinet. So no, I'm

19:20

gonna move onto that hall closet, or

19:22

I'm going to move on to that guest bedroom

19:24

that's been the catch all of all these things that

19:26

I thought I needed to hang on too. But they've

19:29

been sitting in this room for an entire

19:31

year and I've been home and I still haven't

19:33

done anything. So you know what, it's

19:35

time to donate them and let

19:37

them spark joy for somebody else. So

19:40

start with organizing, and organizing

19:43

is going to turn into design.

19:46

Organizing is designing. I love that phrase.

19:49

You know your life has turned out so

19:51

differently than you could have ever

19:53

thought possible when you were a kid. If

19:56

you could tell your

19:58

fifteen year old self what

20:01

his life was going to be like. And

20:04

I think it's really great to

20:06

hear you do that,

20:08

because I think there are a lot of fifteen year

20:10

old sixty seventeen

20:12

year old there's a lot of people out

20:15

there who will find comfort

20:17

and confidence from what you have

20:20

to say. I mean, my biggest

20:22

advice would be, don't let

20:24

anyone tell you who you

20:26

are. Don't let anyone tell you

20:28

what you can or cannot be. And

20:30

you know, even as adults, we struggle

20:33

with this. I'm sure you struggle with this. People

20:35

try to find you, they try to

20:37

tell you who you are, and they're just

20:40

random strangers. Even so,

20:42

my advice for fifteen year olds or fifty

20:45

year olds or ninety year olds is, don't

20:47

let anyone tell

20:50

you who you are. Don't let anyone define

20:52

you. Only you can define

20:55

who you are, and don't let anyone

20:57

else's definition of who you are hold

20:59

you back to your greatest potential. Oh

21:01

I love that. And it's a lifelong

21:03

journey and process, isn't it. I

21:06

still struggle with it. Everybody does well,

21:09

Bobby Burke, I'm thrilled to talk with you.

21:11

You are everything that I thought you would be,

21:14

and I am so grateful

21:17

that you're willing to tell your story because

21:20

it's going to land on different ears

21:23

in different ways. And there are still so

21:25

many people who need to hear

21:27

that you can do hard things and

21:30

you can make a life

21:32

that you're proud of and that you want to share

21:34

with the rest of us. So thank you so very

21:36

much, thank you, thank you so much for having me Madam

21:39

Secretary, and this has been an honor. If

21:45

you'd like to learn more about Bobby's design

21:47

company, go to Bobby

21:49

Burke dot com. And if

21:51

you've enjoyed today's conversation with

21:53

Bobby, you can also check out my interview

21:56

with Tan France, another member of

21:58

the Fab Five, and that

22:00

interview is from season one of this

22:02

podcast, in our episode on

22:04

the American Dreams, So go give it

22:06

a listen. I

22:11

could not have been more excited to talk

22:13

with two people that I knew of

22:15

separately, but boy,

22:18

they are a true powerhouse

22:21

together. And I think you'll understand

22:24

why I say that after you listen to

22:27

this conversation with Abby Wamback

22:29

and Glenn and Doyle. I first

22:32

learned about Abby Wamback in

22:34

connection with women's soccer. You

22:36

know, a hundred years ago, when I was in junior high

22:38

school, I actually played soccer

22:41

and it wasn't very common. I had

22:43

a physical education teacher who

22:46

loved the game. Not very many

22:48

people even knew about it, but I always

22:50

was interested in soccer. You

22:53

know, from that experience going forward,

22:56

and you know, Abby's a two time

22:58

Olympic gold medalists. She has

23:01

the most amazing record

23:03

with the Women's World Cup, winning

23:05

it for the USA. In she

23:08

wrote a fantastic memoir

23:11

called Forward and another

23:13

book called Wolfpack, How

23:15

to come together on leash our power

23:18

and Change the Game. So I

23:20

have followed her from afar, both

23:22

based on her athletic prowess

23:25

and what she has to say which is really

23:27

worth hearing. I first

23:29

encountered Glennan when she

23:32

was gaining a lot of

23:34

attention as a blogger about

23:37

being a wife and a mom and a Christian,

23:40

and she amassed this very

23:42

large following because she was so

23:45

willing to be vulnerable and

23:47

talking about all the challenges in her own

23:49

life. Some listeners

23:52

know that she has authored to

23:54

New York Times bestsellers, Love

23:57

Warrior and her latest book

23:59

on Tame Aimed, and her rallying

24:01

cry is we can do hard

24:04

things. But honestly, I had

24:06

no idea until maybe

24:09

the last year or two that Glennon

24:11

Doyle and Abby Lombach

24:14

had not just gotten together

24:16

but gotten married, and I went, lo,

24:19

I have to talk to them.

24:21

I cannot tell you how excited

24:24

I have to talk to you both. So

24:26

when I came across and I don't

24:28

even remember how I stumbled into this, because

24:31

it was before I read Untamed,

24:33

of course, and I realized you two

24:36

had gotten together and gotten married. I was like,

24:38

oh my god, the universe, the

24:41

stars, the Cosmo Sissi

24:43

in alignment, how

24:46

did this happen? And

24:48

so Glenn and you've written about

24:50

it, I want you to start, and then I want Abby

24:53

to give us her view of it. Okay,

24:56

So we were at a book event.

24:58

Okay, it was a librarians mentioned super

25:01

sexy, super sexy library.

25:06

Um. I was at a table full of writers

25:09

and we were trying to make small talk with each other,

25:12

which is just a nightmare. And

25:14

the woman I was talking to, she was a children's book

25:16

book writer, and I noticed that she

25:18

stopped talking and she looked turned

25:20

towards the door, and so

25:23

all of a sudden, the room got quiet. So I turned

25:25

towards the door and there

25:27

was this woman standing

25:29

in the doorway, and she was

25:32

like thirty ft tall and had

25:35

this like shaved side head

25:37

and platinum hair, and she's wearing this trench

25:40

coat. And she just had this presence

25:42

that was very cool but also very warm,

25:45

and she looked like a man and a woman

25:47

and beyond both and and and

25:49

hello me. This was like, this is a table

25:51

full of writers like we the level

25:54

of cool that had entered the room, we didn't

25:56

understand. It was like the mocking Jay had landed

25:58

at a nerdy book part right. And

26:02

I it is well known in my family that

26:04

my spiritual gift is

26:07

whatever awkwardness is

26:09

in a room, I am able always to make

26:11

it more awkward. Okay, that's what I

26:13

do for the world. And so something

26:16

happened to me in that moment I

26:19

looked at her. I

26:21

understood that I was having some kind

26:23

of reunion. It didn't feel like I was meeting her. It

26:25

felt like I was reuniting with her.

26:28

But then, unfortunately I lost control of my body,

26:31

and so I

26:34

stood up out of my chair and

26:36

threw my arms open toward her

26:38

at the door. Okay, so

26:41

I don't know this is happening until I come to consciousness

26:43

and realize that everyone's now staring at me. So

26:46

now I have to figure out how I'm going to get from

26:48

this position back to my chair. Did

26:50

you know who she was? Um? I knew

26:53

she was. I'm not a fan

26:55

of the sports, but I

26:57

did understand something about World

27:00

Cups, something about the soccer um,

27:03

and so I

27:06

I bowed. This

27:08

is a family joke now, and people do it all the

27:10

time when someone walks into a room, because I

27:12

thought maybe I can just play it off like I'm a weird writer

27:14

who bows when people walk appropriate,

27:18

right, right, So I bound and sat down. That was

27:20

the moment we saw each other for the first

27:22

time. I'm sure your moment was just

27:24

as magical. It was a little different. Oh

27:26

good, I want to hear the Abbey version

27:29

of this. Yeah. So I walk into the

27:31

room and for whatever reason, I'm like running a little

27:33

late, which is so unlike

27:35

me. And I get into the room

27:37

and they're they're all they're sitting down eating

27:39

dinner, and this person across the way

27:42

stands up and puts her arms

27:44

stretched out, And so now

27:46

I'm in the awkward position that

27:48

I have to go unite with her

27:51

because she has body

27:53

language told me we are going to embrace,

27:57

So I have to like side stuff because you

27:59

know, this is a small room and

28:01

the chairs are kind of close to the wall, so I've got a sidestep

28:04

all the way around to Glennon

28:07

and I finally get to her, and

28:09

at this point she has since sat

28:12

back down and

28:14

she just says, can I hug you?

28:16

I was like, well, like that was even an option. You

28:21

have energetically forced me around

28:23

this whole table, So we hug.

28:25

And I had done a little bit of research on all

28:28

the authors that would be there, and

28:30

she was the one author that I was like, Oh, I want

28:32

to talk to her, okay, why you

28:34

know? The Love Wayar and the premise

28:36

of Love Waar was was kind of in

28:38

the little research that I had, and

28:41

in it it said that she was sober, and I had just

28:44

recently gotten sober, like a month ago,

28:47

so I was very interested and

28:49

curious about how somebody does sobriety

28:53

period right so um, and

28:55

and that she was so fearless

28:58

in telling her truth. It was something

29:00

I was very big time struggling with because

29:02

I hadn't actually finished the book that I was there

29:04

to publicize, because there was a part of

29:06

it the d u I that I got at the end of my career

29:09

walking straight into my retirement. I

29:11

didn't know if I wanted to include it. And

29:13

she just said, you know, real

29:16

people in the real world want

29:18

the truth, and that is

29:20

what you should give people. And

29:22

I just thought, oh, that's amazing.

29:25

And then she said, I also have a rap sheet

29:27

as long as your arms, so I don't even worry about it. Of

29:31

course, you know, you got up from the dinner

29:33

and you went your separate ways. So what happened

29:35

next? How did that moment, that

29:37

electric moment, evolve

29:40

into a marriage with three kids

29:43

and a house? I mean, you know, a real all

29:45

American love story. What

29:48

happened? Well, it got even

29:50

weirderer or

29:53

not. I was in a

29:55

very broken marriage to a good man. That's

29:57

a tricky place to because we're supposed to be dis grateful

30:00

for what we have and other people have it worse.

30:02

And yeah, yeah right, So,

30:04

um, I really did have to decide whether I was just gonna

30:06

shut down whatever had just happened to me in

30:09

that room and go back to my broken

30:11

marriage, or whether I was going to

30:13

be open to it and pursue it. And and

30:15

and what I try to explain to Abby is it didn't

30:17

feel like a love decision. At the

30:19

time, it felt like, am I going to

30:22

honor this self that I have just met

30:25

again? Like that was buried

30:27

clearly, you know, this person that announced

30:29

itself in that room. Am I going to abandon

30:32

her again and just go back to good enough? Or

30:34

am I going to honor that? Like it kind of felt

30:36

like spiritually life and death.

30:39

And so what happened is that

30:41

we started emailing each other. I

30:44

found her email address from her assistant

30:46

that was at the event, and

30:49

I wrote to her, you know, just

30:51

as like a good person does, just offering

30:54

my best spiritual advice. You

30:56

know, I just felt motive

31:00

reaching out into the world. No, I just

31:02

really felt like I wanted to do the right thing,

31:04

And so I wrote to her,

31:07

and we started writing back and forth, and we

31:09

overtime fell in love through letters.

31:13

We didn't see each other again in person

31:15

until we had both completely dismantled our

31:17

lives. I mean, well,

31:20

yeah, we didn't see each other until months and months later,

31:23

and when I had already sat down

31:25

with Craig and told him I'm leaving

31:27

I'm in love with Abby. We had

31:29

talked to the children we had start

31:32

and she had done the same thing. So

31:34

we fell in love through letters. Oh that makes it

31:36

even more romantic. But Abby,

31:38

here you were. You were at the beginning of

31:40

your sobriety journey. You

31:43

had encountered this spirit

31:46

in this you know woman at the dinner, and

31:49

all of a sudden you start emailing how

31:52

did you come to the realization

31:54

that you you needed to continue

31:57

with sobriety, but everything else in your life

31:59

had to change. When you're early

32:01

in your sobriety life, you're

32:03

so concerned with how do we rebuild

32:06

a life? And at the time, so much of

32:08

my life was revolved around going

32:10

out and partying, and those were the friends

32:13

that I had, and I knew that

32:15

I had to have a completely different

32:17

experience to stay

32:19

sober. And the way that Glennon and I like

32:21

to define that word is just peace. So

32:24

Glennon gave me the understanding

32:27

that it is possible. Right so early

32:29

on. She was married and I'm like,

32:31

I was getting a divorce and I was like, you know what, I

32:34

just want to be close to this person because she's

32:36

giving me confidence in this piece that

32:38

I'm in search of. And then

32:40

I think that, you know, not that she was a sponsor

32:43

for me in any way. Um, but I

32:45

think that having people like that

32:47

to help you on that sobriety journey,

32:49

I know that it has completely saved my life. But at

32:52

the end of the day too, when you throw love

32:54

into the mix and then deciding to build a whole

32:56

life together, I can't even

32:59

remember the time that I

33:01

wasn't sober or I didn't have

33:03

you, you know, so I just I'm

33:06

so grateful for so many reasons. Glennon.

33:08

By that time, how long had you been sober?

33:10

I guess Ober the day I found out I was pregnant with

33:13

my son, Chase, And now he is eighteen,

33:16

so back then it would have been fifteen

33:19

years. You know. One

33:22

thing that I have thought a lot about,

33:24

Glennon is because you you really came to

33:26

public awareness. I first became aware

33:28

of you because of your writing and

33:31

you're speaking, your Ted talk and

33:33

all of that, and you had a really

33:35

large Christian following. How

33:39

has that been affected

33:41

by, you know, your divorce, by

33:44

your falling in love with and marrying

33:46

Abby. For your very open

33:48

description of what your life is like now.

33:51

Yeah, one of the interesting things

33:53

about when I announced online

33:56

that Abby and I were going to be together the

33:59

night before that happened my team.

34:03

I remember someone saying, well, tomorrow's

34:05

the blood bath. That's what

34:07

I went to bed thinking, Oh,

34:10

tomorrow's the blood bath. Right that

34:13

morning, I wrote a short

34:15

something. It was very important to me to

34:17

tell but not to explain. I felt

34:19

very I thought it was important to

34:21

tell the truth but not be responsible for anyone's

34:24

reaction to it, right, And

34:26

so I wrote a paragraph.

34:28

I put a picture of Abby and me on Facebook

34:31

or Instagram or something, and then I walked away. I shut the

34:33

computer and walked away. My sister,

34:35

who was my protector in all

34:37

things, she was going to monitor

34:40

the world as she tries to do.

34:42

Just fix the world for me, real quick, right, so

34:45

um. A few hours later, she called me crying.

34:48

My sister does not cry. She

34:51

called me crying. She said, Glenn, and I need you to get

34:53

on your social media.

34:55

I need you to get on and I need you to read how

34:58

your community, how your people are

35:01

reacting to this news. And

35:04

I was expecting a blood bath. And it felt like

35:06

a baptism. It was so

35:09

beautiful, and it wasn't just beautiful in that

35:11

people who you know understood it and

35:13

celebrated it. And we're super progressive. They

35:16

were celebratory. Even the people who

35:18

were confused as all

35:21

right, who were like, um

35:23

okay, love winds um

35:27

like they've got that, Like

35:29

they didn't have any clue, but

35:31

they were trying. You know,

35:34

It's just wow. You know, I have

35:36

to ask both of you as you were talking about

35:38

and I loved what you told

35:40

Abby and what Abby just told us. You had said

35:42

about real people want the truth? Why

35:45

do we do at this point in our country

35:48

where it does seem like a lot of real

35:50

people want anything but the

35:52

truth. And I've

35:54

thought about the two of you in this

35:56

context, because I

35:58

mean, you've really been and on the forefront

36:01

of making change. You know, whether

36:04

you knew it or not, you have been and

36:06

for that, I am certainly grateful,

36:09

and you've gone through a lot. And I

36:11

am just wondering if you have any thoughts

36:13

about how we began reaching

36:16

other people. I mean, we're not all going

36:18

to agree, fine, but to help

36:21

create more of a community like the

36:23

community that received your truths

36:25

both of you, the larger

36:28

community is so divided

36:30

and it's a dangerous divide. Any

36:32

thoughts on that. The

36:35

time that I spent with the national team,

36:37

it was so special because

36:40

there was this little ecosystem

36:42

of women who all could

36:44

agree on one thing, and

36:47

that was winning. Now,

36:49

we sat around a ton of meal

36:51

tables for hundreds and hundreds

36:53

and thousands of hours. So you

36:55

sit around the table after you've eaten, and you talk

36:59

and we discussed. We disagreed.

37:02

There were Republicans, there were democrats,

37:04

there were straight there were evangelicals,

37:06

there were every kind

37:09

of person. Yet

37:11

we were still able to accomplish

37:14

this thing at winning. And

37:17

I think about this all the time because I understand

37:19

that this is a super complex issue as

37:21

it relates to the nation where we're at right now.

37:24

But I think about this and it does give me hope.

37:27

I wasn't best friends with every single one

37:29

of my teammates, but I respected

37:32

the hell out of every single

37:34

one of those women because guess what, every

37:36

single one of us, I'm like giving myself the

37:38

children's cellarius. Every

37:40

single one of us would show up,

37:43

would sacrifice the same amount, and

37:45

we would give it all because we bought into

37:47

this idea not only the

37:49

relentless pursuit of excellence, but to win.

37:52

So, yes, we disagreed, but

37:55

we were able to still function. And by

37:57

the way, when you know this

37:59

whole year of the team

38:02

that I now am thinking based on what

38:04

you just said that you know, there's another idea.

38:07

There's another book in you Abby

38:09

about the American team. It's not

38:11

just the women who play soccer.

38:13

It is all of us. And we used to think

38:15

we were on the same team. I mean, even if we disagreed

38:18

with each other, even if we've found each other, you

38:20

know, totally ridiculous. We

38:23

always thought we were on the same team.

38:25

And we've had leaders recently

38:28

who have divided us and

38:30

said, no, you know, only one

38:32

team is worth being on the team. I'm on

38:34

the team. I lead the team that believes

38:37

in me, which is so dangerous

38:40

and destructive. But this idea of

38:42

the American team, maybe we can

38:44

figure out how to explain that

38:47

and in effect put it out into the world

38:49

again. Thank you. I will send you some royalties

38:51

for this book. I will

38:53

take that little nugget and I'm going to run with it. I

38:56

wish you would, you know, I love to

38:58

behind Glennon is her Matra.

39:02

We can do hard things, and

39:04

you've really seated that in the world.

39:06

Glennon, how does it feel to see

39:09

more and more people coming around

39:11

to this idea that you first really

39:13

understood when you were a third grade teacher

39:16

and another teacher put that up on

39:18

the wall of her classroom. Well,

39:20

it's I mean, I think that the idea we

39:22

can do hard things is sort of a

39:25

declaration of hope, right, but

39:28

it's hope based in reality.

39:30

It's not like this is easy,

39:34

just wake up in the morning and do it and

39:37

come on. No, it's like

39:39

this time. It's resonating

39:41

right now so much because we're

39:44

all facing the hard stuff. You know. We talk

39:46

a lot about how this metaphor where

39:48

it's like we're all snow globes. I

39:50

had the snow globe when I was little, and I loved it, but I hated

39:53

it because it was so beautiful that the

39:55

snow in it, But there was this terrifying dragon

39:57

at the center of it, and I thought it was so scary. So

39:59

I keep it shaken up all the time so I never

40:01

had to see that scary red dragon. And

40:04

that reminds me of myself, right, just

40:06

constantly keeping myself shaken

40:09

up with whatever it is business,

40:11

um, snark, shopping,

40:14

food, what it used to be, boot, whatever

40:16

it is, you know, so that

40:18

I don't have to see the dragon at the center

40:21

of things, and I think that's what you know,

40:23

COVID has been this forced settling of

40:25

the collective snow globe, and we are looking

40:27

at the dragons of our lives and our relationships

40:30

and our nation, you know, and

40:32

that's hard, Like looking

40:34

at the truth of things is the hardest thing.

40:36

That's beginning of sobriety. It's the

40:38

beginning of any healing of a relationship.

40:41

I think it's it's the beginning of the possibility

40:43

for hope, for healing for our nation. But

40:46

we avoid that part because

40:48

the truth is so scary. But

40:51

the reason why it's hopeful is because you can't slay

40:53

any dragon without first looking

40:55

at it. Yeah, accepting it. It's

40:57

there, It's in your nation, right, I'm

41:00

anything we think about, you know, the

41:02

racial reckoning that we've had um

41:04

and that we're having, and then it's just beginning, I think.

41:07

And you think about how that started sort

41:09

of during COVID and the George Floyd murder,

41:11

and it's like, but what was different about that time? We've

41:13

been looking at this happening over and over again,

41:16

but what was different is that we couldn't look

41:18

away from it. We were in our homes. We didn't

41:20

have anywhere to go. We couldn't just caret

41:23

we couldn't shake the snow globe up again. And

41:25

so I think that we can do hard things

41:27

is just a way of saying, oh my god,

41:30

we are seeing all of our dragons right now.

41:33

Good good, We'll

41:37

be right back. I

41:48

want to switch gears a minute, because one

41:51

of the areas that I think about when I think

41:53

of you, Abby is your outspoken

41:55

fight for equal pay

41:58

and benefits for American

42:00

women in sports. And it's

42:03

a disgrace where

42:05

we are across the board, but in particular

42:08

in soccer. When I think about everything

42:10

you gave for the sport, you know, one

42:13

image that sticks in my mind is you know

42:15

that qualifying World

42:17

Cup game against Mexico where literally

42:21

you smashed your head. Blood

42:23

is gushing from your head, and

42:25

instead of walking off the field and getting

42:28

a substitute, you stood there and had

42:30

your head stapled

42:32

closed. I mean, honest to God,

42:34

I think about that and I go, oh,

42:37

I don't know what is the equivalent in my life. When

42:39

did I, you know, go back in with my metaphoric,

42:42

you know, Staples. I think

42:44

about that because then I remember

42:47

how you were honored

42:49

as you well should have been. And as I

42:51

write about you in the book of Gutsy

42:53

Women that I wrote with my daughter, I think

42:55

the record still is you have scored more goals

42:58

in international competition than any

43:00

woman or man in the history of

43:03

you know, international soccer, which obviously

43:05

is huge. And ESPN

43:07

honored you along with Kobe

43:10

Bryant and Peyton Manning, and

43:12

I was thrilled that you know you were going

43:14

to be given this incredible

43:17

recognition, But explain

43:19

how you felt at

43:21

that moment, because I think listeners

43:24

need to understand that behind

43:26

the glory and the celebration,

43:29

there was a harsh reality. Well, so

43:31

I just want to circle back two things.

43:33

One, God really loves Glennon,

43:36

because God brought

43:38

Glennon into my life after my career,

43:40

so that head stabling incident would

43:42

not have flown very well

43:45

with her. She would have have passed out on the

43:47

grounds to carry

43:50

um. And then secondly, and this is so

43:53

great, Christine Sinclair, a

43:55

woman who plays for the team Canada, has

43:57

since broken the record that I

43:59

took over from Mia, and something

44:02

so good needs to be shared and other

44:04

women need to experience what it feels like

44:06

to have worked relentlessly

44:09

for decades to accrue that many

44:11

goals. So I'm happy our

44:13

children are like what do I say now, Like

44:16

my mom is like number two in the

44:18

world

44:20

for at least a week. Um, But

44:23

then, you know, to finish the story. In terms

44:26

of Khobe and Peyton, I

44:28

felt so glad that they

44:30

thought of me, you know. And

44:32

I remember being on that stage and I was a

44:34

little bit nervous because I had some lines to say

44:37

and it was nationally televised, and I

44:39

nailed the lines. Hillary, you know I did. I

44:41

nailed go girl. I

44:44

just remember feeling on stage. I

44:46

felt so grateful, right

44:49

often the only emotion women

44:51

are allowed. So when the

44:53

lights turned off and the three of us turned

44:55

to walk off stage, something

44:58

else happened inside of my body. I

45:00

started to get a kind of rage that

45:03

I had never experienced before. A guilt,

45:06

a fear, and anger, a rage.

45:09

I felt sick. I felt sick to

45:11

my stomach that I didn't do enough

45:14

when I was in it because this was my

45:16

exit right. And here's

45:18

the thing, you know, Kobe and Peyton's biggest

45:20

concerns at this point in their retirement

45:22

was where they were going to invest their hundreds of millions

45:24

of dollars that they collectively earned. And

45:27

my biggest concern, and this is a true story,

45:30

is how I was going to find

45:32

a job to pay my mortgage,

45:35

how I was going to earn any money. And

45:39

in the hotel room that night, I promised myself two

45:41

things. Number One, Crystal Dunn, who's

45:43

a current national team player, Alex Morgan, who's

45:45

a current national team player in Megan Rapino, these

45:47

women would never share this experience with me.

45:50

I will do whatever it takes to make sure that

45:52

their experience is different. And

45:54

then number two, most importantly, if

45:57

this was happening to me, I

46:00

understood deeply that this was happening to

46:02

every woman, because on some weird

46:04

level, when you get invited

46:07

into certain rooms and you are given certain

46:09

seats at certain tables where decisions are made,

46:11

you have a sense that maybe I am not a victim

46:14

to this inequality right,

46:18

But that night I understood that I was.

46:21

I understood that we all are. And

46:23

I have dedicated since then

46:26

my whole life, my mission, my purpose

46:28

on this planet is to make sure that we

46:31

do everything possible

46:33

to fix the inequalities that are

46:36

rampant through every industry.

46:38

In every city and every state, in every country

46:40

of this world. Women they retire

46:43

with less, they have to

46:45

work longer, which is just freedom.

46:47

And I I believe that people deserve

46:50

to be treated equally. I literally

46:52

could talk to the two of you all day.

46:55

So let me and with this question

46:57

each of you. Hopefully in the

46:59

next few months, enough of us are

47:01

going to get vaccinated and we're

47:04

gonna see the beginning of

47:06

a return to the semblance

47:08

of a normal life, whatever that

47:11

means anymore. So what is each

47:13

of you looking forward to? Most? And

47:15

Glenn? And you've already gotten your hair done, so you can't

47:18

you know, you can't say that, right. I mean, I know

47:20

in the in the beginning of the pandemic it

47:22

was I'll follow you on Instagram and there

47:25

was lots of talk about hair.

47:28

And as someone who has both talked about and

47:30

Ben talked about a lot regarding hair,

47:32

I think we've covered that. So what besides

47:35

that, what are you both looking forward to?

47:37

I mean, the most honest answer that I can

47:39

think of for that is, I just desperately

47:41

want to hug my mom. Oh

47:44

where does she live? She lives in Virginia.

47:47

I'm gonna um,

47:50

I have not seen them since March, and

47:53

um, you know, they haven't seen our

47:55

kids, and they It's just

47:57

I cannot wait to

48:00

just hug my mom and

48:03

hug my dad. And I hope that I don't

48:05

forget that. I hope that I

48:08

remember what it's like to not be able

48:10

to and that I um

48:12

value that more in the after Abby.

48:16

What about you? This is a

48:18

tough question for me to answer because I spend

48:20

my life basically on the road

48:23

doing speaking events and

48:26

whatever it is, whatever the heck else I

48:28

do for my work and to earn money.

48:30

I'm a hustler. Um,

48:34

this time has been so interesting, and

48:36

I bet you you probably would agree

48:38

Hillary that this is the

48:41

first time my central nervous system has

48:43

comed itself down to

48:45

a ground at zero because I haven't been

48:47

able to travel. And so as

48:50

hard as this has been in so many ways, this

48:53

has been in some ways one of the greatest

48:55

gifts that I have ever been handed,

48:57

and I have been I've promised myself

48:59

to out of this whole situation

49:02

better. Right, So, how can I be more

49:04

fit? How can I get more organized?

49:06

How can I And my wife helps because

49:08

she starts to clean out the garage and then I have

49:10

to finish the cleaning of the garage. Starting

49:13

finishing. It's hard for me. But

49:16

I think that having said all that, what

49:18

I would say is, I'm excited

49:20

to go on vacation. I'm

49:24

with you, girl, I'm with you. Where

49:27

do you want to go? Give any any big dreams?

49:29

I mean, we live in Naples, but I want to go somewhere

49:31

warm and on a beach and

49:34

somebody to deliver me cold water.

49:36

Maybe without the kids, no kids,

49:39

kids on vacation, on dogs,

49:42

no kids, no people. Okay, So

49:44

DM me when you find the perfect place.

49:47

Because I'm more in the go

49:49

on vacation mode, I find myself

49:51

obsessing over you

49:53

know, vacation pictures, pictures

49:55

of the most beautiful destination is

49:58

a little crazy. Last January

50:00

went to Mirror Val in Tucson, Arizona.

50:02

It's getaway destination

50:05

place and we were setting intentions

50:07

for we were going to crush

50:09

it. We didn't know that this would

50:11

be the last vacation we ever took. Go

50:14

and be with God. Folks,

50:19

Amen, Mad, Sister Abbey,

50:21

Hey Mad. To

50:27

keep up with Abby and Glennon, follow

50:30

them on social media and check

50:32

out their websites. For Glennon,

50:34

that's mamas Terry dot

50:36

com, m O M A S

50:39

T E r y dot

50:41

com and you can find Abbey's website

50:44

at Abbey Wampach w

50:46

A M B A c h dot

50:48

com. I've

50:50

thought a lot about doing hard things

50:53

over the last year. My constant

50:55

hard thing is to uh get up

50:57

and keep going every day and the mets

51:00

of this pandemic, which I'm

51:02

really getting tired of. My friends, you

51:04

know, I want to travel again. I want

51:06

to eat in a restaurant again,

51:09

and I'm determined that I'm not going to do that until

51:12

it's absolutely safe to get out

51:14

there. But boy, it's hard. And then,

51:16

of course there were really hard things

51:19

like standing up to continuing

51:23

racial inequity and waging

51:26

an election during a pandemic and

51:28

then protecting the outcome of that election.

51:32

So to me, it's even more

51:34

important that we try to do hard things

51:36

and don't confuse the hard things

51:39

like standing up to racism, standing

51:41

up for democracy from

51:43

things that are necessary but frankly

51:45

not that hard, like putting on a mask in

51:48

the middle of a pandemic. I

51:50

would love to hear stories from our listeners

51:53

about how you do hard things or

51:55

people you know who have done hard things

51:58

and if you want to share a st ory,

52:00

please send an email to You

52:02

and Me Both pod at gmail

52:05

dot com.

52:08

You and Me Both is brought to you by I

52:10

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52:15

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