0:00

You and Me Both is a production of

0:02

I Heart Radio Hannah.

0:05

Hannah Gadsby,

0:07

Hello Hillary, Is that what I called you? Or is it Madame

0:10

Secretary? Or Hillary? Is my name?

0:12

Hilly Billy, Hilly Billy. I will

0:15

not call you that, of course, now that

0:17

you have it in your head, you'll never forget it. It's

0:19

true. And no William,

0:21

Oh my god. Well yeah, I've been calling a lot

0:23

worse, as have you. So I'm

0:27

Hillary Clinton and this is you

0:30

and Me Both on today's

0:32

episode. I'm talking to one of

0:34

my favorite comedians. Though in my

0:36

mind, she's much more than a comedian.

0:39

She's also a provocative thinker

0:41

who challenges her audiences

0:43

to do some serious thinking too.

0:46

Like many people, I first discovered

0:48

Hannah Gadsby in eighteen

0:51

when I saw her breakout Netflix

0:54

comedy special Nannette.

0:56

That show was a huge success,

0:58

earning Hannah an Emmy and a Peabody

1:01

Award, which game as a surprise

1:03

to her because, as she puts it,

1:06

Nanette is arguably the

1:08

most deliberately miserable, unfunny

1:10

hour of comedy ever made. If

1:13

you haven't seen it yet, the special begins

1:15

with Hannah's trademark dry humor,

1:18

with self deprecating jokes about

1:20

her appearance and about the sexism

1:23

and gender based violence she

1:25

experienced in her life, particularly

1:28

growing up in Tasmania, the

1:30

very conservative part of Australia

1:33

where she lived then. And this

1:35

is a spoiler, Hannah tells us

1:38

she's quitting comedy because she no longer

1:40

wants to be party to a form of entertainment

1:43

where she introduces audiences to

1:45

her trauma and then re traumatizes

1:48

herself by inviting us

1:51

to laugh about it. As an

1:53

example, she shares the story

1:55

of coming out as gay to her mother because

1:58

the response to me coming out when first told

2:00

her that I was a little bit lesbian byby

2:03

steps, her

2:05

response. Her response was this, She's

2:08

just gone, Oh, Hannah,

2:13

why did you have to tell

2:15

me that

2:17

that's not something I to

2:20

know? I

2:23

mean, what if I told you I

2:26

was a murderer. It

2:30

is pretty funny, but as she

2:32

points out, it's also very

2:35

painful. Luckily

2:37

for us, Hannah did not quit comedy.

2:40

Instead, she found a way of doing

2:42

it that does not require her

2:44

to inflict pain on herself or

2:47

anyone else who's been victimized

2:49

in the ways that she has in

2:53

Hannah released another Netflix

2:55

special called Douglas, which

2:58

touches on a range of topics from

3:00

the patriarchy to anti vax

3:02

ER's, her haters, her own

3:04

diagnosis of autism

3:06

spectrum disorder or a s

3:09

D, which she received in

3:13

and she's got a memoir coming out right

3:15

now called Ten Steps.

3:17

Tune in net, Welcome

3:19

Hannah to the show. I am so happy

3:22

to be talking to you, but first I got to ask you.

3:24

I heard you broke your leg,

3:28

real doozy. I fell

3:30

over walking in Iceland. Yeah,

3:33

well, there's a lot of ice in Iceland. They're

3:35

not lying. It's on the label very

3:38

nice, nice healthcare system

3:40

there. I had emergency surgery and

3:42

they looked after me. Great, have you

3:44

done the physical therapy that you've got to do

3:46

in order to get your strength back? Well, I've got

3:48

to wait for it to heal. So yeah,

3:50

I've just had surgery. Can you get back

3:53

off a bit like I've caught plates and

3:55

screws in? Well? I can? I can move the

3:57

foot? Yeah? I broke my elbow

3:59

about to I don't remember. Two thousand and

4:01

nine a long time ago. And you didn't do the exercise it

4:03

did? Oh? No, I did? I did because

4:05

I was I was scared out of my mind

4:07

that if I didn't, but I have like plates and

4:10

you know all that stuff, and I know, I mean, it takes a

4:12

while, but you've got to do the exercises when they clear

4:14

you to do it. So that's that's my that's my

4:16

physical therapy advice for the day.

4:18

And this is not what I expected, but I

4:21

will take it well. I

4:23

was so excited to talk with you because I

4:26

have been a fan. I

4:28

really appreciate

4:31

how you literally have

4:34

approached not just your comedy,

4:36

but I guess your life in a way that kind

4:38

of shares it with the rest of us. And

4:41

in it seemed to me

4:44

from afar that your life was turned upside

4:46

down because your stand up special,

4:48

and then that was released on Netflix,

4:50

which is where I saw it. People around

4:52

the world like me met you for the first time.

4:55

And since then, you've put out another

4:57

Netflix special called Douglas. You're

5:00

soon get hit the road once your leg

5:02

gets prepared and ready to do

5:04

your new show called Body of Work. You've also

5:06

gotten married, another big life

5:09

event, and you've

5:11

got a memoir coming out. Holy moly, I

5:13

mean, you have been one busy person.

5:16

How has your life changed and how

5:19

if you can describe how

5:22

you feel about all this, because I mean, was

5:24

not that long ago, and so much has happened

5:26

since. Well, yeah, a lot

5:29

happened in my life, and then a lot happened

5:31

globally that has nothing to do with

5:33

me. So it's how to get a measure on

5:35

what has become my life when the whole

5:37

world has been turned upside down. That's

5:40

true. But for that brief

5:42

window where I was the center of the universe,

5:45

it was a bit shocking. I went like, because before

5:47

this Netflix special dropped, I would have classed

5:50

myself as a successful comedian.

5:52

I was earning money. I was a living wage,

5:55

which is not something I've had before comedy

5:58

b C as we like to say. And

6:01

I was regularly touring Australia in

6:03

the UK, so you know, Americans

6:05

would not have heard of me, but that

6:07

does not preclude my existence. So

6:10

the Netflix special just put

6:12

me up into this model of success

6:15

that was not something I was prepared for,

6:18

mostly because you just look out

6:20

there and you just don't see someone like me.

6:22

And I say fair enough as well, like I'm

6:24

not everyone's cup of tea, you

6:26

know, I know, I'm a typical and not

6:30

riddled with enthusiasm, and I

6:32

feel like that's what really gets you some

6:35

success. So I ran the analytics,

6:37

and I didn't think I'd be successful on on a

6:39

global stage, and so I just sat back and sat in my

6:41

lane and did my work, and

6:44

I felt very disorientating to

6:46

be you know, what was the trickiest thing is

6:49

famous people knowing who I was. Like, it's

6:52

one thing for a lot of you know, people who

6:54

I would say, I like me knowing who I

6:56

was, I'm like, well that's weird. But for

7:00

famous people to know who I am, I'm not the

7:02

best person for that because I don't always know who

7:04

people are. So I am just a faux pa

7:06

waiting to happen. I'm Hillary Clinton, and

7:08

I'm really

7:11

and we're so thrilled to heavy on the spot.

7:14

But you know, you grew up in a place

7:17

that I haven't yet visited, but I you

7:19

know, really been fascinated by for

7:21

a very long time called Tasmania.

7:24

Uh what do you know about Tesmania?

7:27

Here's what given I'm gonna

7:29

I'm gonna tell you what I know and then and you can tell me

7:31

how wrong I am. It's a big island

7:33

part of Australia, but off the coast of Australia

7:36

there are things called the Tasmanian Devils. It's

7:40

somewhat sparsely populated.

7:42

It is both agricultural and

7:45

I guess you know, fishing and things like that.

7:48

It's beautiful, but it's also stark,

7:50

and it's somewhat isolating and quite

7:53

conservative. That's what I know about it. You

7:55

did read my book, Yeah, it's

7:58

it's um it's so of like if

8:01

you threw New Zealand into a gothic nightmare.

8:03

Um. I love

8:06

Tasmania. I am from there.

8:08

I grew up there. It's all I knew for a very long

8:10

time. But the

8:12

Tasmania that exists now is different

8:14

to the one that I grew up in. And I think

8:16

that's a really important point to make because

8:19

it, like me, has evolved

8:22

and it's quite easy for a single person

8:25

to mature and grow up, but it's actually quite

8:27

difficult for a culture to

8:29

mature and grow up in a short space of time.

8:31

And what did that was

8:34

the gay law reform

8:37

that took place in the eighties and nineties. It was

8:39

fierce and it reached the global stage. I

8:41

think, you know, we might have made the New York

8:43

Times once. Um

8:46

it was a really intense sort

8:48

of conflation of my own identity

8:50

and my home's identity, because

8:53

at that time it was it was fiercely homophobic

8:55

and proudly so, and it was like, this

8:58

is who we are, and I

9:00

was learning that that's who I was. And so

9:02

I was a debatable citizen in

9:04

the most sort of really vulnerable time of my

9:06

life. And there's

9:09

all sorts of terrible things to talk about

9:11

in that story, but you could

9:13

cut also to the positive headline that Tasmania

9:16

has some of the strongest human

9:18

rights protections in Australian.

9:21

You know, I can't claim the world. It's a big place,

9:23

but I think we learned as

9:25

a as a community that we didn't

9:28

like being divided like that, we

9:30

didn't like being painted as

9:33

an accepting and you

9:36

know this sturely pockets still there, but as

9:38

a as a whole, I feel safe going back home

9:40

where I never did before. Um.

9:43

So it's a long and dark history,

9:45

but there is that at the end of it.

9:48

Well, I really like the way you talk about it

9:50

evolving because I know that

9:52

you know in the net when you talk

9:55

about your childhood and and

9:57

how you first saw what you call your people

9:59

when you watch the Sydney

10:01

Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras,

10:03

and you saw people having a great time

10:06

and partying. And you know, you

10:08

have a great line where you say, well where

10:10

do the quiet gays? God

10:13

always, I've never been to mad

10:15

I just looks a bit much. I'm very proud,

10:18

but well, I just have this

10:20

image of you as as a young girl,

10:22

young woman in Tasmania

10:25

and like so many other lgbt

10:28

Q kids, all of a sudden,

10:30

not feeling alone, even though it

10:33

was just through a TV screen. It's

10:35

one of those It's a student of history. This this golds

10:37

me the most is each generation we have

10:39

to prove that we exist. And I

10:42

am a student of history. I know we've always existed.

10:45

You just have to not have the biases

10:48

that blind you to that existence. And

10:51

right now it's happening to trans

10:53

kids and gender quick kids, and honestly

10:56

that's where I am on the spectrum.

10:58

I have gender queer, but we didn't have the language

11:00

when I was growing up. So the bonus

11:03

of not having languages, you don't have the vitriol

11:05

on the other side of the language, and that's

11:07

what we're going through now. I feel a

11:09

real sense of urgency

11:12

about what I

11:14

can see happening now. I feel very

11:16

also helpless

11:19

because what's happening to trans

11:21

kids, particularly in the US, but also in Australia,

11:23

in the UK IS and

11:25

elsewhere. My sure, but it's

11:29

now a hot topic. It's being it's a

11:31

plaything for people who want to motivate

11:33

hatred in order to generate votes and

11:36

clicks. It's really toxic, and

11:38

it's become you know, they're dividing

11:40

families that you know, even

11:43

running laws that parents and teachers

11:45

who help trans kids

11:48

performing some kind of child abuse. And it's just like,

11:51

we can't solve the riddle of gender, but we can

11:53

be decent to our children.

11:55

You know, doing untold damage

11:57

to trans kids and also

12:00

kids who aren't you know, kids

12:03

who are burgeoning transphobs. We

12:05

are doing damage to them because you

12:07

know, we're teaching kids that it's

12:09

okay to exclude. And really, if

12:12

we're going to get through climate change, we

12:14

need everyone. We're

12:19

taking a quick break. Stay with us now.

12:30

I want to tell you a story about a terrible

12:32

conversation I had at the dog

12:34

park. One this bloke just walks up

12:36

to me. I mean, he had a dog. He wasn't just being creepy.

12:38

Had context, and

12:40

I don't want to tell you this, it's not pertinent to the story,

12:42

but I want you to know his dog had shoes

12:45

on, and

12:47

his dog did not want to have shoes

12:49

on because he's doing that like and

12:52

it was a whippet situation. And they're shaking at

12:55

the best of times. So we don't know why are they cold?

12:57

Are they nervous? We don't know. But it was like just it

12:59

was lot. Now it's not important to the story,

13:01

but it was a lot in my periphery. So I just

13:03

want you to know added

13:06

stress. Now, this was my

13:09

friend's icebreaker. We've never met. This

13:11

was his icebreaker. He said, did you know it

13:14

takes less muscles to smile than

13:17

brown. Now,

13:21

the men in the audience are sitting there going, oh, you've

13:23

experienced an isolated incident. When

13:29

the women are sitting there going oh, the Fox safe

13:33

and non binary folks are like, is that a hard

13:36

day for you? Isn't That's

13:39

a clip from your Netflix special,

13:42

Douglas. The other thing that

13:44

you have talked about as you were

13:47

diagnosed with autism a few years ago,

13:49

and you actually have said

13:52

that the day you were diagnosed was a

13:54

very good day. How would you explain

13:56

that? Uh,

13:59

you know, the process of going from hunch

14:01

to diagnosis was quite exhilarating

14:04

because as I researched it, parts

14:07

of myself just fell into place and it's like, oh,

14:10

oh, I make sense suddenly. Um.

14:13

In fact, coming to terms

14:15

with my atypical thinking was

14:19

even more profound than coming

14:21

to terms with my sexuality, because

14:23

ultimately your sexuality is it's

14:26

not a large part of your day

14:28

to day, whereas the way

14:30

you think is pretty much always there. So

14:34

learning that I was never going to get to the

14:36

starting line of normal I say that in air

14:39

quotes, sort of gave

14:41

me a bit of a breather, Like I've been treading

14:43

water my entire life, just trying

14:45

to work out what was important

14:49

and ignoring what

14:51

was actually important to me, which

14:53

put a lot of stress on my central nervous system.

14:56

But the flip side of that was, after

14:58

that relief came a lot of greed because

15:01

it was almost so simple a click,

15:04

this understanding that oh

15:06

you think differently, and I can just

15:08

deal with that. But I just also feel like, in

15:11

this conversation about autism

15:13

and neuro divergence. There's still a

15:15

lot of shame around it because

15:17

it's not always an easy existence. So are

15:19

you choking to death? I'm

15:22

not choking to death. I'm trying not to cough through

15:24

this incredible description.

15:28

Yeah you did? You did? Yeah? Look, I mean the

15:30

body knows the score. You did? You broken

15:32

up? Sorry? Sorry?

15:35

Um? Where was I? Where was I? Was

15:37

I talking about anything interesting? Oh? Yes, grief?

15:39

Because you know there's

15:42

this shame that is being projected onto

15:44

the names and the labels of a

15:47

s D, and because you know at the end is

15:49

disorder like that is always the

15:52

thing. But you know, if you look at the more

15:54

sort of holistically, how

15:57

can you prove that there is a right way for our

15:59

central nerves the system to operate

16:01

and what you know what sparks up and individual's

16:04

central nervous system. We don't

16:06

have a grip on it. We're still the sciences very

16:09

active. So as individuals,

16:11

we don't get to solve that. All we get to do

16:13

is do the best we can. And we have enough

16:16

information now to know that

16:18

not all kids are the same. Alert

16:21

Let's make sure everybody hears out and

16:24

it's not just the way we look like it's

16:26

just on a very fundamental level,

16:28

information in and information out

16:31

is different, and for too long, particularly

16:33

girls and any other not boys,

16:36

it's seen as character flaws,

16:39

and that compounds the shame

16:41

and the stress of it, because it's like a

16:43

boy not talking, it's like, you

16:45

know, he's a strong, silent type having interesting

16:48

thoughts, whereas a girl that becomes

16:51

sulky, then it's just a simple

16:53

A seed is that and that snowballs.

16:56

But I think the beauty of

16:58

a lot of people on the spectrum, there's lot of trauma

17:01

that we have to exist through because the world

17:03

is not built for us and the world doesn't really accommodate

17:06

our kind of thinking, which

17:08

is is not direct.

17:11

But I'm surrounded by stories

17:15

that prioritize neurotypical

17:18

experiences of the world. So I have

17:20

a great understanding and appreciation for

17:22

neurotypical experience, and it is

17:24

typical for a reason. But

17:27

I think it's time for neurotypical people

17:29

to not pity or

17:33

for fear, but sort

17:35

of try and learn the language. It's about humanizing.

17:38

We're very we're devastatingly simple. People

17:41

Just talk to us about what we're interested in, and

17:45

you're ours forever, like where were your puppy

17:47

dogs? Well, you mentioned

17:49

the word trauma, and you've gone through a lot

17:51

in your life, and now

17:54

you've got a new book coming out, Ten Steps

17:56

to Nanat, a new one. It's

17:58

my only one, it's your own, you one, your first. Also,

18:01

I should just clean something up. Sorry to dropped, but

18:05

um, I to regret that every time I say

18:07

it. But anyway, I can't speak for

18:09

everyone on spectrum, and it's a spectrum for a reason,

18:12

So just totally

18:14

get that. And and I do think it's

18:16

important to emphasize that

18:18

there is diversity on the spectrum,

18:20

just like there is in every other aspect

18:23

of human life and experience. But

18:25

you know, we now know so much more about

18:28

what trauma does to the body.

18:30

You know literally how it affects

18:33

you know how people feel and think

18:35

and almost physically your body

18:37

reacts. So how have you

18:40

figured out a way to process

18:43

trauma? I asked, And really,

18:46

you know you don't expect an answer.

18:49

Well, I do expect some kind of an answer

18:51

because I do think that

18:54

finally people are recognizing

18:56

what trauma does to

18:59

a person. The way out of trauma

19:01

is is a complicated path,

19:04

and it's not ever, the way

19:07

into trauma is is very quick, it

19:11

could be a momentum. The

19:13

way out of trauma is rarely as simple, and

19:16

I think, I think the emphasis

19:18

on the individual to get themselves out of trauma

19:21

is criminal because

19:24

you can't achieve a

19:26

sense of safety without the community

19:29

within which you live. You know, understanding

19:32

that you felt unsafe and have an

19:34

invested interest in your feeling safe. So

19:38

just understanding that you can appreciate

19:40

why there are great numbers

19:43

of communities who are existing in cyclical

19:45

trauma, because time and time

19:47

again, their governments

19:50

let them know that they're not safe.

19:54

I have emerged on the other side of my

19:56

trauma. I took a punt

19:58

with my show a Nette. It

20:00

was a working theory that

20:03

if I shared it honestly and in

20:05

a controlled environment, and I felt

20:07

like I could control the stand up comedy arena,

20:10

you know, three people at a time in

20:12

the same room, I was going to

20:14

force them to sit

20:17

in my all my sort

20:19

of distress, in all

20:22

its all its charm, that

20:24

being you know anger, fear,

20:28

and you know vulnerability,

20:30

if you want to use that old chestnut, and

20:33

I didn't think it would pay

20:36

off. I thought by doing that, I would

20:38

reduce my audience, but reduce it to a number

20:40

that felt safer to me. But what

20:42

actually happened was surprising,

20:44

as my audience got bigger

20:47

and bigger and something and what I was saying that was

20:49

cathartic people having conversations

20:51

after my show, you know, families

20:53

would go in and then you

20:55

know, I got so many notes from people saying

20:58

we had conversation the we

21:00

need to have. You know, that made me feel part

21:02

of a community, and that made me feel safer,

21:04

not the fact that I got this thing off my chest.

21:06

It was not a void. You

21:09

know, we all knew that these things happened

21:11

to people all the time, but we just

21:13

don't talk about it because we get stuck

21:15

on the trauma loop and

21:18

what happens after is

21:21

so much more important. We need to show

21:23

that people can recover from trauma. We

21:25

need to show that it's a battle. We

21:27

need help, But it's not a drain

21:30

worth circling. Terrible things happen

21:32

to people all the time, and

21:34

it's not resilience pawn because it's a

21:36

community effort. I will not stand

21:39

as a person I've nailed this. I don't know

21:41

what it is about what I did that helped me through

21:43

this. They did so many different things,

21:46

but one of the main things is I felt

21:48

connected. You know. That really

21:50

corresponds with everything

21:53

that I know or that

21:55

I've heard about how people

21:58

can work through their trauma

22:01

because they find a safe space

22:03

and they find a community.

22:05

And you mentioned how families

22:08

would have conversations after seeing

22:11

you in your stand

22:13

up routine talking about,

22:15

you know, the disappointments

22:18

and the attacks and the

22:20

physical abuse and everything

22:22

that you experienced. What

22:24

about your own family and particularly

22:27

your mom, because I know you've talked about

22:29

some of the you know, quite hurtful

22:31

things that she

22:34

would say to you when you were younger and when

22:36

you did come out. How

22:38

has that relationship evolved. Well,

22:41

I think it's evolved because I've

22:43

matured and I can see. My mother was

22:46

in an impossible position. She

22:49

was trying to raise children in

22:51

a intolerant place, and

22:55

the active conversation happening

22:57

around her was one of intolerance.

23:00

What do you do like? You

23:03

know? So she did the best she could. Sometimes

23:06

it came out sideways and was painful, but

23:09

ultimately she walked

23:12

of an almost impossible line.

23:14

But she did it, and she's

23:17

ashamed of it. She's not proud of it, and

23:19

I I sometimes

23:21

go, now, you're right, be fine, But

23:24

it's not easy for her for me to be out in the

23:26

world going this is our story. But

23:28

there's so much of what she did do that you

23:31

don't you're not taught to look

23:33

for in the way that we tell stories. We're

23:35

always looking for the good guy, the bad guy.

23:38

You know, in order for me to come out and be full

23:40

of pride, there has to be a bad guy in my

23:43

story. And it's

23:45

just life is so much messier than that. It

23:48

so is what I'm hearing

23:50

you say, and what I you know

23:52

you're making me feel is how

23:56

you came to understand her and

24:00

gave her the grace for

24:02

her to feel. You know, that you

24:05

were opening a door

24:08

that she could then walk through despite how

24:10

she felt ashamed or whatever it

24:12

happened in the past. Well, we did that

24:14

to each other for a while. We just kept knocked down through

24:16

the right doors, and it was a long

24:19

process. And it didn't help that I didn't

24:21

understand that I was autistic. And

24:23

so you've got someone who's near atypical

24:25

trying to communicate with someone who's not. So

24:27

there's that added part of it. But

24:30

she showed me grace for you know,

24:32

not first I had a conversation

24:35

with her, well, the gay marriage debate

24:37

in Australia was was flinging itself around

24:39

in the mid turns,

24:42

and you know, she said something

24:44

that's still to this day staggers me.

24:46

And I said it in and that I say it in my memoi. Say

24:48

it again, she said to me, she said she

24:51

regrets raising me as if I was straight.

24:55

And I just think that that's an

24:57

outlandishly progressive

25:01

thing to say, um, because

25:03

it's not just like it's not a simple apology

25:06

like you know, sorry I said some things.

25:08

It's like, fundamentally I made some

25:10

assumptions that damaged you, and it is

25:12

true. It's not her fault. That's

25:14

the world we live in, um.

25:17

And so there's a lesson to be learned there. There's

25:19

a lot of lessons to be learned

25:21

there. We'll

25:24

be right back. You

25:36

know. Some of what made the

25:39

nets so surprising and really

25:41

so great is the

25:43

way that you dealt

25:46

with self deprecation. And

25:48

I had never thought about it the way that you

25:50

were describing it. You

25:53

actually talk about how

25:56

self deprecation from

25:58

somebody who already exists in the margins.

26:02

Is not humility, it's humiliation.

26:05

You put yourself down in order

26:08

to not only speak, but

26:10

in order to seek permission to speak,

26:13

and you said you just would not do that

26:15

anymore. That's such a profound

26:17

realization. And you

26:19

know, on a totally different level,

26:22

you know, women engage in self

26:24

deprecation all the time to be accepted

26:27

in predominantly male

26:30

settings. Put themselves

26:32

down and humiliate

26:34

themselves. I speak from some experience,

26:36

um in order for people to

26:40

think, oh, she's not threatening, she's

26:42

okay. How did

26:44

you get to that realization? And how

26:47

did it affect the jokes she told and

26:49

how you determined to present

26:51

yourself. The realization came after

26:54

my autism diagnosis, and then

26:56

I began to look at the way that I

26:58

was telling my own story is it's

27:02

it's really wrapped up in my autism. And

27:04

so when I was throughout my career, when I go on

27:06

stage and talk about myself, I was very self deprecating.

27:08

And it was for that reason. It's like, you

27:10

know, I cut a slightly strange figure on stage,

27:13

so I had to address that. You know, I tried not to

27:15

on occasions, and nobody would laugh until I addressed

27:19

the issue that was me. I couldn't just go out

27:21

and talk about pop tarts, you know, So

27:24

that was my on stage persona. But then I

27:26

was also doing art history lectures

27:29

on the side, a little bit of a side hustle festivals,

27:32

I you know, like the Scottish Art

27:34

Gallery in Edinburgh and all the

27:36

National Gallery Victorian during the Melbourne Comedy

27:38

Festival, and I do comedy art lectures,

27:41

and when I got on stage and delivered

27:43

those, I was the captain of the

27:45

room because I didn't have to explain

27:47

myself. But also I was talking about

27:49

my passion and autism circles.

27:52

We call it's the special interest, but I feel

27:54

like passion is actually a better term,

27:57

and so I wasn't thinking about myself. I don't

27:59

care how he's got something to tell you. I've got something

28:01

interesting to say and you'll listen. And they did. But

28:03

I couldn't marry the two. I couldn't

28:05

work out how to be that, and

28:08

until I was diagnosed, I didn't quite

28:10

understand that. And so once I did

28:12

that, I thought the self deprecation for what it was.

28:15

It was an apology, but also trying

28:17

to fit in to other people's expectations

28:20

of you. And I had enough experience

28:23

as a comedian to be able to undo

28:25

that, you know, because I felt more confident

28:28

than I was looking on stage, and

28:31

so I began to pull that apart. And then

28:33

I saw it for what it was, which is like, oh,

28:35

I'm putting myself down. I'm doing the work.

28:38

I thought I was flipping the script on the homophobia,

28:40

on the you know, the fat phobia, on the woman

28:43

phobia, all the queer phobia, all these

28:45

phobias. I thought I was flipping the script. But in order

28:47

to flip the script, first of all, I had

28:49

to remind people of the script. And

28:51

that was a damaging thing. And that's what I did in and it and

28:53

I said, the script is no good. I'm

28:58

changing the script. But I also think

29:00

it's an important tool. I'm not devoid

29:02

of it now, like I'm in a different part of my life

29:04

now, says my self deprecation skills

29:06

are actually coming in handy. I need to have a bit of

29:09

humility about me. I have power where I didn't

29:11

have any. Now people know me, the

29:13

room changes when I walk into it. I

29:15

should be self deprecating. That's interesting.

29:18

But from the new perspective. Yeah,

29:21

but I won't be self deprecating about being queer.

29:23

I won't be self deprecating about being

29:25

autistic white all day.

29:27

I will be self deprecating all day

29:30

about wine. Not a problem. We

29:32

are bad people. We it's

29:35

there is proof, there's

29:37

a lot of evidence backing. We

29:40

wrote it. We kept the notes. Well,

29:43

you said that you know your life had changed, and one

29:45

thing is you got married last year. Congratulations,

29:48

I think you married your producer

29:51

Jenny. Now how did you two get together? And

29:54

um, and how did you

29:56

decide that you're going to take this, you

29:58

know, big step together. We started

30:00

working together. She was my on the ground producer

30:03

for my off Broadway run of Nanette, so it was a pre

30:05

Netflix. We worked together

30:08

great. We liked each other. But I'm not great at

30:10

picking up you know. So

30:12

you know. Just but

30:15

when I was about to do a world tour of

30:17

my new show Douglas, I was

30:20

chatting and she told me she was looking for a new

30:22

thing to do. New. She's incredibly

30:24

intelligent, incredibly good at what she does, but

30:26

was looking for something new. And so I ran my manager

30:28

and said, okay, Because

30:30

the thing about Jenner is that she knew

30:33

I needed things before I did. And

30:35

as someone on the spectrum, that is just so

30:38

nice because sometimes I'll be

30:40

distressed and not know why. And I

30:42

had someone on my team who's just like I think,

30:45

I think you might be thirsty. It's

30:47

as simple as that. So we

30:50

began to work together. We're on it. We did a world

30:52

tour and at some stage that the penny

30:54

drop. Then the pandemic happened.

30:57

So we had a world tour and a pandemic in

30:59

lockdown on in Australia, and if I don't know if you read

31:01

the news, but it was it was brutal. Yeah,

31:04

we we took it seriously. So

31:07

we figured from that, you

31:09

know, that's sickness and health in

31:11

rather extremes that we had this. But

31:14

Jenny is one of the only people I've ever

31:17

met who instantly understood

31:21

my way of communicating. And

31:24

you know, there wasn't a torment of adjustment.

31:27

It was just which

31:30

is really lovely. Well, I'm going to

31:32

end by asking you for advice because

31:34

hill Billy here for you. If

31:37

I need you, I need your girl. So

31:40

you've talked about dealing with online

31:42

trolls, who, as

31:45

we both know, just loved

31:47

to come after people like us

31:50

who don't follow the rules or

31:53

the prescribed roles

31:55

that are set out for us. So, what's your

31:58

strategy for dealing with online

32:00

bigotry and hatred? And you've got any good

32:02

comebacks you want to share for the next time

32:05

I need one, Hillary, my

32:07

advice to you is don't engage, because

32:09

what's coming at you is not sanity

32:13

boy, that's for sure. The thing about

32:15

social media, we have allowed

32:17

a very narrow demographic of people who

32:21

are not famous for their interpersonal

32:23

skills like I speak as they might

32:25

people, and we have allowed

32:27

that small demographic of people to build

32:30

the infrastructure through which we all communicate,

32:33

and it's driving us insane

32:36

as a collective. And so

32:38

just bear that in mind next time you see dramas.

32:41

Just like Zuckerberg,

32:48

Hannah Goutsby, I cannot tell you how much

32:50

I have loved talking with you in

32:52

person. So instead of just admiring

32:54

you from AFAR and following your

32:57

personal evolution, I

32:59

agree got to talk to you and

33:01

I just look forward to whatever comes

33:03

next for you. Thank you very much. Hally

33:05

Billy has been an absolutely create I'm so

33:08

sorry I keep calling you that, but I'm not sorry.

33:13

Thank you so much. Thank you. I

33:19

guess Hannah did do her physical therapy

33:22

exercises because she's back

33:24

on her feet and hitting the road. She'll

33:27

be performing her new show called

33:29

Body of Work across

33:32

the United States this spring and

33:34

summer. For details

33:36

on her tour, go to Hannah Gatsby

33:39

dot com dot AU. And

33:41

before I go a next week's

33:44

episode of You and Me Both,

33:46

I'll be answering your questions with a

33:48

special guest. If you've got

33:50

a last minute question for me, you can

33:53

write to You and Me Both pod

33:55

at gmail dot com,

33:57

or you can leave a voice message at two

33:59

oh to seven eight oh seven

34:02

five one five, and who knows,

34:04

I might just answer your question

34:07

on the show You

34:12

and Me Both is brought to you by I

34:14

Heart Radio. We're produced

34:16

by Julie Subran, Kathleen Russo

34:19

and Rob Russo, with help

34:21

from Huma Aberdeen, Oscar

34:23

Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Brianna

34:26

Johnson, Nick Merrill, Laura

34:29

Olan, Lona Velmorrow, and

34:32

Benita Zaman. Our

34:34

engineer is Zach McNeice

34:36

and original music is by Forest

34:39

Gray. If you like You

34:41

and Me Both, please tell someone else

34:43

about it, And if you're not already a

34:45

subscriber, what are you waiting for?

34:48

You can subscribe to you and me both

34:50

on the I Heart Radio app, Apple

34:53

Podcasts, or wherever you

34:55

get your podcasts. Thanks

34:57

for listening, and we'll be back neck

35:00

next week when I'll be answering

35:02

your questions. Don't miss it.