0:00

You and Me Both is a production of

0:02

I Heart Radio. The stand

0:05

up was just another extension of that of Hey,

0:07

Grief, I'm gonna go on stage

0:09

tonight and tell jokes for seven minutes in the

0:11

world that you trapped me, and I'm still gonna go up and do it

0:14

like out of sheer defiance.

0:17

I'm Hillary Clinton and this is

0:20

You and Me Both, where I get into

0:22

some of today's biggest questions

0:24

with people I admire. On today's

0:27

episode, we're talking about

0:29

finding a path forward after

0:31

a terrible loss, moving from

0:34

grief to action. You

0:38

know, when I think about the times I've

0:40

gone through grieving, losing my parents

0:43

and in particular, last year was really

0:46

hard on me. I lost one

0:48

of my very close friends, my

0:51

best friend from literally

0:53

sixth grade, and my younger

0:55

brother. It happened in the space

0:58

of, you know, less than six months.

1:00

It was painful missing

1:02

them and wishing I could talk to them

1:05

practically every day, and

1:07

I often find myself trying

1:09

to figure out how do other people confront

1:12

feelings of sadness and anger,

1:14

disbelief, outrage, How

1:17

do we all summon the strength

1:19

to keep going. So

1:22

I'm talking to two people who have

1:25

really endured very

1:27

tough losses. Later, I'll be talking

1:29

with Sabrina Fulton. She's the

1:32

mother of Trayvon Martin, who was shot

1:34

and killed on his way home

1:36

from a store in twelve.

1:40

You know, Sabrina has become a powerful

1:42

advocate for parents and communities

1:45

harmed by violence. She's

1:47

someone that I've been inspired by

1:49

over the years. But first,

1:52

I will be talking with actor

1:54

and comedian Patent Oswald.

1:58

Now you may have seen him on t V on

2:00

one of his stand up Netflix specials,

2:03

or on The King of Queens, one of the

2:05

great titles for a TV program,

2:08

Or if you're a grandmother like me, you

2:10

might have heard him as the voice of the

2:13

rat Remy in the movie Rata

2:15

Tui. He's known for being funny,

2:17

but he's also been outspoken about

2:19

the grief he's experienced in

2:23

Patton's wife, Michelle, died suddenly

2:26

in her sleep. She was forty

2:28

six years old. Her death was attributed

2:30

to an undiagnosed heart condition

2:33

and complications from medications

2:35

she was taking. Her sudden

2:38

death left Patent and their

2:40

daughter, Alice, who was then

2:42

eight years old, totally

2:45

overcome by loss and grief.

2:48

Now, he since has returned to comedy

2:51

even remarried and is raising

2:53

an incredible kid that I got

2:55

to say hello to before we started,

2:58

and that was great talking with

3:00

Alice. But he did something

3:02

else. He took the project that

3:04

Michelle had dedicated decades

3:07

of her life too and brought it to

3:09

fruition. Because you see, Michelle

3:12

was writing the book on the Golden

3:14

State Killer based on months

3:17

and months of research. Patton

3:20

worked with two collaborators to finish

3:22

this book called I'll Be Gone

3:25

in the Dark. It went on to become

3:27

a New York Times bestseller, and

3:30

then he helped produce the HBO documentary

3:33

series by the same title. So

3:35

I wanted to talk to Patton about

3:37

how he got over and through

3:40

one of the most terrible losses

3:43

you can experience, and

3:45

where he is now. Well,

3:48

I have to say, Patton, I am

3:50

thrilled to meet you

3:53

through this podcast and have a chance

3:55

to talk with you. And I think I should

3:57

start by congratulating you because

4:00

in May, in the middle of COVID, you

4:02

released a new stand up special

4:04

on Netflix called I Love Everything,

4:07

and it got absolute ray reviews

4:09

add me to the list, um, and

4:12

so I'm just so excited

4:14

to have this chance to talk to you. About

4:17

really the ups and the downs of life

4:19

and different ways we

4:22

move from grief to action.

4:25

Yes, and you've been

4:27

very public about your grief.

4:29

When your wife Michelle passed

4:32

away back in it

4:34

was very sudden, left you alone

4:37

a single father, and

4:39

I have so appreciated how

4:42

honest, raw vulnerable

4:44

you've been talking about

4:47

that experience. Yeah.

4:49

Well, I mean I think that keyed off of

4:51

me when it first happened, when

4:53

Michelle first passed, and I was so shell

4:56

shocked and kind of shredded, you know, really I was.

4:58

I was all nerve and viscera.

5:01

That's how I felt. I turned

5:03

to people in the past that had also been

5:06

very, very upfront about chronicling

5:08

their grief, especially as

5:10

a book called A Grief Observed

5:13

by C. S. Lewis, where his

5:15

his wife had just died, probably

5:17

one of the best writers of the twentieth century. And

5:20

this wasn't a book that was written months

5:22

or years, and like he was writing it immediately

5:24

as he was feeling it. And it is one of

5:26

the greatest depictions of grief I've

5:29

ever seen, and I it's the slimmest

5:31

book he's ever written. And it took me so long to read

5:33

it. Because you just need to take a break

5:35

from it. It's one of the heaviest things I've ever read,

5:37

but I came away from it feeling

5:39

so much. You know that feel you get

5:41

after you've had a really, really

5:44

deep cry, and then

5:46

afterwards you're like, oh, I actually sort of

5:48

have some strength right now. I can maybe like

5:50

I needed to wrench that stuff out of me. And

5:53

so once the book ended, it was almost

5:55

like, I need to talk about this in

5:58

a way to like I need to

6:00

recreate that cry constantly, because

6:02

one of the scariest moments in grief is you

6:05

think that you'll have a specific reaction

6:07

to stimulize. So thinking about her

6:09

being gone, and there will be moments when I wouldn't cry,

6:12

But then later on I'm driving along

6:14

and I would see a cloud and I would

6:17

explode into tears.

6:19

And what I realized was my body

6:21

was defending me, going, oh, wait a minute,

6:23

we can't deal with the immediate stimuli,

6:25

it'll be too much. Let's let this come

6:28

out against a random thing so that it's

6:30

not so he can actually kind

6:32

of deal with it. And I remember talking to a lot of

6:35

people who had, you know, survived widowers

6:37

or people that had survived grief friends of mine that had

6:39

also gone to the same thing, like, Yeah, you're gonna

6:41

go through that for a while where you will start the

6:44

stuff you think is gonna make you cry, you will

6:46

have no reaction to, and you'll judge yourself

6:48

very harshly, and then later

6:51

on a day, later, a week later,

6:53

you'll explode over nothing. And it was

6:55

that was really scary, you know,

6:57

And the losses that I've experienced,

7:00

I know what you're talking about. I mean, you

7:02

know when after my father died, or my mother

7:05

died, or my best friend died, something

7:07

will trigger a memory

7:09

that is not even conscious, it's so

7:12

deeply buried, and

7:14

all of a sudden, my eyes are welling up

7:16

and I have to if I'm in

7:18

public, you know, I have to sort

7:20

of sniff a lot. Which,

7:24

Yeah, it's so interesting

7:27

because you were back on the stage

7:29

doing comedy within six months.

7:32

And was that a way for you

7:34

to process what you were going

7:36

through? And I mean, how was it part of your healing

7:38

process? I wish I could say something

7:41

as noble and intelligent as oh, and I

7:43

decided to attack it was when

7:45

the first time I went on stage was in August, and

7:47

I basically it has had nothing

7:50

to do with healing or regaining

7:52

myself. It was I don't know what else to

7:55

do. And it also

7:57

was because for a couple of months after she

7:59

passed, I was like, I don't know

8:01

if I'm alive, Like maybe I'm

8:03

the one who died. And I genuinely wasn't

8:06

sure whether I was alive or not. There

8:08

were those days where I would

8:10

walk around and go, wait, is this did

8:12

Michelle die? Maybe I'm the

8:14

one who And I had some really scary,

8:17

like mental health moments

8:19

when I didn't know if I so it was like, Okay,

8:21

I need to bring and I and I remember

8:23

I flashed back to when I told Alice,

8:26

the principal in her school, said she whatever

8:28

she tells you she needs, you have to you have to let

8:30

her lead for a while. And one of the first things she

8:32

said was because I told her on a Friday,

8:35

and she goes, I want to go to school on Monday, like

8:37

it was the first because I want something

8:39

that feels like normalcy. And then I realized,

8:42

oh, I'm doing the same thing that my daughter did. On

8:44

a weeknight, I would go out and do sets

8:46

because that's what normal life looked like, So that's what I

8:48

started doing, right, So it wasn't a distraction

8:51

so much. No, it was a

8:53

way through, how can I make

8:55

the world feel like the living world

8:57

when I wasn't questioning whether I was a either

9:00

or not, And I had to start actively

9:03

switching the world back to the way that it was

9:05

doing stand up. I remember there

9:07

were a couple of mornings when I just couldn't wake

9:10

up and Alice just didn't go to school

9:12

because I wouldn't wake up till noon, and I'd

9:14

go, I'm so sorry, or I would

9:16

I would forget to like suddenly, oh,

9:18

you have no clean clothes because I haven't done any laundry, because

9:21

I don't know what I'm you know. So then

9:23

I had to start really actively going, I'm getting

9:25

up every morning. I'm gonna make her breakfast.

9:27

She's gonna be right, Like I did that in

9:29

defiance of this grief world I

9:31

was stuck in. So I did that for a few months,

9:33

and then the stand up was just another extension of

9:35

that of Hey, grief, I'm

9:38

gonna go on stage tonight and tell jokes for seven

9:40

minutes in the world that you trapped me, and I'm still

9:42

gonna go up and do it like out of sheer

9:44

defiance. I love that

9:46

word defiance, because you were you were defying

9:50

the tragic reality that you

9:52

were now inhabiting, and you were determined

9:55

that you were going to do everything you could

9:57

at least to reshape it, both for you and

9:59

Alice. You also did something else

10:01

that really mattered, because you

10:04

know, your late wife was an

10:06

extraordinary investigator

10:08

and researcher, and what

10:11

she did was to try

10:13

to, through her writing, her

10:15

online interactions, you

10:17

know, to try to build a community of people who

10:20

were going to help solve crimes, which

10:22

you know, I find fascinating. And

10:25

she was in the middle when Michelle

10:27

died of a year's long research

10:29

project to track down the

10:32

rapist and murderer eventually

10:34

known as the Golden State Killer. Yeah.

10:37

Well that was a thing that she had

10:39

written about on her blog True Crime

10:41

Diary, which led to Los

10:43

Angeles magazine wanting her to write an article

10:45

about it, and the article blew up

10:48

online and that led to HarperCollins

10:51

saying, well, this is a book because it's such a massive,

10:54

decades long unsolved case.

10:56

The Golden State Killer started off as

10:58

a burglar and ray pist in the Sacramento

11:01

area in the early seventies mid seventies,

11:04

he went under the names the Vicelia

11:07

Ransacker. Then he became the

11:09

East Area Rapist or ear E A

11:11

r. Then he bumped

11:13

up to murder. Then he vanished,

11:16

but then reappeared down in Irvine

11:18

and and Goalita and like it was

11:20

just this statewide kind

11:23

of spree. It was the worst uncaught

11:26

killer in California history.

11:28

And he had faded from memory and it

11:30

turned out he was an ex police

11:32

policeman who was kicked

11:34

off the force partially

11:36

for shoplifting, if I'm not mistaken,

11:39

a hammer and dog repellent, spray

11:42

and rope. So that's

11:44

getting on the edge of like dark comedy at that

11:46

point where it's like how much more obvious could

11:48

this guts? But also people keep

11:50

forgetting there was an era coming

11:52

up where you know, that's what guys did, man, you

11:55

used to that's of course you buys a hammer, and

11:57

some wrote that's what guys do, so it didn't

11:59

seem weird or suspicious. So she

12:02

really delves into part of what kept

12:04

him going for so long was the tone

12:06

and uh feeling of the era

12:09

and how it felt about women and how it felt about

12:11

rape victims and stuff like that. So you

12:13

know, it's a whole piece. It's

12:15

it's it's as much a mood piece

12:17

as it is an investigative piece. It's it's just both

12:20

in its extraordinary. We're

12:22

taking a quick break. Stay with us. You

12:26

decided to finish the book she

12:29

was working on, and you know,

12:31

give us a little bit of understanding

12:33

as to how you summon the energy

12:35

and commitment to take on what is a

12:37

huge undertaking. Yeah, well that

12:40

was me. You know again,

12:42

the first there was not an immediate I'm

12:44

gonna see her book through. It was

12:46

just months of you

12:48

know, junk food and crying

12:51

and rewatching the princess bride um

12:54

and just doing like the most embarrassing

12:56

stuff you wish as yeah as you wish you exactly

12:59

um. And then came down to it wasn't even that.

13:01

I just I was like, I'm going to finish book, like

13:03

I am going to beg people

13:06

who knew her who I also know, Billy

13:08

Jensen who's a journalist, Paul Haynes, who

13:10

was her researcher and data minor, and

13:13

this guy Paul Holes who was a homicide

13:15

investigator, Like please please help

13:17

me assemble I can't write at

13:19

her level. I can't fill in

13:22

where she left off sensitives, but we can. We can

13:24

organize this so that it has a narrative

13:26

to it, and please, please, let's get

13:28

this out there. And they all stepped

13:31

up a lot of times when you're grieving.

13:33

That's another part of grieving that people that I think

13:35

gets misrepresented a lot, the stoic

13:39

lone Widower, the you know,

13:41

lone wolf and Cub Samurai with his

13:43

you know baby in the cart in front of him and walking

13:46

through the rain. And I'm gonna do that. No,

13:48

You're gonna have to ask for a lot

13:50

of help and be kind

13:52

of clumsy and embarrassed to do it. But I

13:54

still did it because I wanted that book

13:58

finished, especially because one

14:00

of the things that Michelle embraced

14:02

early on. Most crimes

14:05

are solved not through card

14:07

chases and shootouts. It's a

14:09

cop sitting there sifting

14:12

through data. I remember there was a

14:14

day she got somehow there was a digital

14:17

archive of every year book in

14:19

Sacramento from the time that

14:21

he would have been young, and so

14:24

a couple of witnesses described as being athletic.

14:26

So she went through every track

14:28

team. I mean it was just like it took weeks

14:31

to go through and cross reference and it led

14:33

to nothing. But it

14:36

was the doing that, and and again it was every

14:39

couple days and every couple of weeks, it

14:41

was just the how do I, how do I get up tomorrow

14:43

and do this again? This is going nowhere. It's

14:45

you gotta hammer it every day.

14:47

It's so brutal and and

14:49

I think that's why a lot of the cops

14:51

that she talked to trusted her very early on, because

14:54

they saw, oh, no, she's doing the

14:56

grunt work. She's not trying to do the

14:59

really cool how Hollywood c s

15:01

I sherlock, Oh this

15:04

cigarette ash. It's like, no, I just

15:06

went through like five phone books from

15:09

five different years. You know that kind

15:11

of thing, which is how you that's how you solve crimes.

15:13

But you finished the book I'll Be Gone

15:16

in the Dark. You had the investigators

15:18

and the retired police and everybody

15:21

helping you. Then you turned it into

15:23

an HBO documentary.

15:25

What did it feel like, you know, not only

15:28

finishing the book, but then turning it into

15:30

a documentary, getting it over

15:32

the finished line, so to speak, without

15:34

Michelle being right there by your side. You

15:37

know, again, the cliche word would be bitter sweet,

15:40

especially because the director that I

15:42

got to work with, this woman, Liz Garvis,

15:44

who did the Nina Simone documentary and the

15:47

Angola Prison documentary. The

15:49

way that she was able to tell the story

15:51

and focus on the aspects

15:55

of the story that Michelle

15:57

would have wanted focused on, which is

16:00

the victims, which is the survivors,

16:02

and plays and these women that Michelle

16:04

was always like, I hate serial killer narratives

16:06

that make the serial killer out to be this dark

16:09

anti hero. We're in reality,

16:11

these guys they're they're just worms, you know,

16:13

They're they're just worms. So the

16:15

fact that that's what she also focused on, it

16:18

would have been so good to have Michelle there

16:20

to consult and see that process

16:23

what she focused on her book also than being

16:25

expanded, and also I know

16:27

that Michelle would have wanted to have talked

16:29

to the survivors. You know, if Michelle

16:31

had been alive and he had been caught the way he was, I

16:33

would be home taking care of Alice

16:35

while she was staying in a hotel in Shackman and going

16:37

to every court day, and just nothing

16:40

felt better than when I met the women that had survived

16:42

it. And they were all like, we go to every one of

16:44

his arraignments and we look right

16:46

at him and he can't raise his head, he can't

16:48

look at us. And the smiles on

16:50

their faces seeing this guy

16:52

just reduced to what he was. It was just

16:55

yes, yeah, well,

16:57

and you know, the book was obviously a man

17:00

us of best seller. And

17:02

then on August twenty one,

17:04

just you know, this year, this guy,

17:07

this really terrible guy, horrible

17:09

human being, was convicted

17:11

of murdering I think thirteen

17:14

people and raping over

17:16

fifty in California in

17:18

the seventies and eighties. And then,

17:20

as I understand it from the plea hearing,

17:23

he admitted to things that he hadn't even been charged

17:26

with. Well, one of the you know, one

17:28

of the scenes that I found both powerful

17:30

and hopeful in the documentary was in the

17:32

last episode when many

17:35

of the rape survivors came together.

17:39

They were, in their words,

17:41

a survivor family. And you

17:43

know, once said, even though it was decades

17:46

after the attack, she suffered

17:49

that she was on the road to becoming

17:52

herself again. That must have

17:54

been a really emotional experience

17:56

for you Pat too, to meet these

17:58

women, the survivor family members

18:01

you know what did that mean to you. I

18:03

met them at a book event up in Sacramento,

18:06

and I kept it together when I met them because out

18:09

of it just felt it would have felt, really I

18:11

thought petty and disrespectful if I

18:13

had come apart after what they had gone

18:15

through. And I just listened to them. I just

18:17

listen to them talk about all that, you know, their lives.

18:19

And but then when I got I remember very

18:21

specifically, when I got back to my hotel

18:24

room, I well, I burst into tears

18:26

in the car, and then I had to get myself together

18:28

because I don't want to walk through the lobby like bawling,

18:30

looking nuts. But then I got

18:32

myself together, went back in my room, and when

18:34

I closed it or I started crying again because

18:37

it's just so you feel

18:40

the decades of their lives just unspooling

18:43

on you like that, and and the fact that they

18:45

are walking around in the

18:47

sunshine and going to see friends. There

18:50

is a gorgeous defiance in

18:52

now, you know what, I'm gonna go live my life and yeah,

18:55

and I know what you took from me, and I'm still going

18:57

to go live my life like you're

18:59

just an insect. Because

19:01

of course, the ones who survived,

19:03

and of course the family members

19:05

of those who did not from his murders.

19:09

They had to go through their own grieving process

19:11

and they had to make

19:14

decisions as you did every single day,

19:17

as am I going to be defined by

19:19

destroyed and damaged by what

19:21

this man did to me or did to my you

19:24

know, loved one? Or is there a

19:26

way that I can be defiant?

19:28

And I really like your concept

19:31

there. You know, sometimes you have to be defiant

19:34

in the face of what life throws at

19:36

you. You know. I'm also really

19:38

happy to have had

19:41

a chance before we started talking

19:43

to see your new wife and

19:46

your beautiful daughter, Alice.

19:48

So you have rebuilt

19:50

a life, Pat, I mean, you know, it's not

19:52

that you've you've turned a page that's

19:54

a ridiculous, uh you

19:57

know description, but you've you've

19:59

stayed in the river, so to speak, and it continues

20:02

to flow and you've got new

20:04

love and new life. Talk a

20:06

little bit about that, because I

20:09

want those who are listening who

20:11

are going through grief for whatever happened

20:13

to them, are feeling maybe

20:16

down and depressed, maybe they're

20:18

worried about the world, whatever it is. You

20:20

know, there is this potential

20:22

out there isn't there. Yeah, that's a really interesting

20:24

way that you describe the river. You got back, you stayed

20:27

in the river. The river flows whether

20:29

you go with it or not. It is going

20:31

to flow whether you're in it or not. You

20:34

know that more than anyone. You that the kind of

20:36

like that that river is going to keep going. So I

20:38

either decide to get in and

20:40

see where it goes next, or I sit

20:43

and just glare at it from the shore. You know, you

20:45

you have to go with

20:47

it. And I was, you

20:49

know, it was February. It was almost a year

20:51

after Michelle had passed away, and I was just,

20:54

you know, slowly rebuilding things and getting

20:56

on stage. And Meredith and I had

20:58

a lot of friends in common, but we had ever met.

21:00

And one of our friends in common is this actress

21:03

named Martha Plimpton who likes to have

21:05

these big dinner parties where she invites different

21:07

people together. So she invited a

21:09

bunch of people. I was on the list, so is Meredith.

21:12

And at the last minute I couldn't go to the

21:14

dinner because I was traveling. And

21:16

then the next day Meredith

21:19

sent me a message going, dude, you missed the best

21:21

lasagna last night, just like and

21:23

I went a story of my life. And then we

21:26

just started talking on Facebook.

21:28

We never spoke on the phone. We would just right

21:30

to each other. And it got to the point where I

21:33

was just talking to her because I missed

21:35

having someone to talk to in the dark

21:37

at the end of the day. You just sit there and go,

21:40

oh man, what is going on? And we were talking

21:42

about the election and what was what the

21:44

There was nothing romantic about it. It It was just like I've

21:47

met this incredibly agile,

21:49

multifaceted mind like

21:51

Michelle's that I can just talk to at the end of the day. And we would

21:53

go all right, same time tomorrow, yeah, And then

21:56

every night at nine o'clock and like, all right, Alice is

21:58

asleep, what did you do today? Well? I had this

22:00

audition and that went on for three

22:02

months, just writing, and

22:05

then we over that time we fell in love

22:08

just writing to each other, and then we

22:10

it was but it was so like Victoria, like

22:12

like like one of those epistolary romances.

22:15

It's just the letters back and forth.

22:18

And then finally on May

22:20

we were like, okay we should meet I go where

22:23

should we go? And and she just said really fun. She

22:25

goes let's pick like a restaurant with

22:27

like a beach or something nearby. So

22:29

in case this doesn't go well, we can, like one of us

22:31

can go for a walk where we can. We'll give each other

22:33

a boat hold. We were so worried

22:35

that it wasn't gonna work. And then um

22:38

we we met at the restaurant at shutters and

22:41

we just locked eyes and it was like, oh my god,

22:43

I just you know, and then that and

22:45

then U I propose. In November

22:48

four we were married. It was you

22:50

know, I'm a sucker for a happy

22:53

but I mean, as far as telling the people out

22:55

there, you know, you have to be very

22:58

let yourself get over your grief

23:01

first, but don't

23:03

write off the possibility of love if

23:05

you're not completely done with your grief, like I

23:07

wasn't completely done, And Meredith

23:09

was was more open than I was about because

23:12

I know you still have stuff to

23:14

go through and if you want to wait or

23:16

postpone, you know, I'm not trying to rush you into

23:18

anything. But it was that

23:20

attitude of hers made me go, oh, no, I

23:22

should be with her. This is amazing. That

23:25

so great. And also you get to a certain age, like,

23:27

look, if we've been in our twenties, absolutely

23:29

gone, we should move in together. And I don't

23:31

know. I'm still but once you're in your

23:34

late forties, you're like, I know who I am. I

23:36

know when I've met someone who's not insane, this

23:38

person is awesome. Why would I let this person? You know?

23:40

So that's that's kind of where we were. So that's

23:43

a pretty low bar. I've met someone who's not insane.

23:46

Well, living in living in Los Angeles,

23:48

that's actually arrest like finding a unicorn

23:51

that's not insane. I guess I gotta marry her. It's

23:53

amazing. She's saying,

23:56

sign her roup. Oh

23:58

my gosh, oh pat Now as while I

24:00

have so enjoyed talking

24:02

to you.

24:08

Patton's newest comedy special, I

24:10

Love Everything, is out on Netflix and

24:12

the HBO documentary series I'll

24:15

Be Gone in the Dark is based on the

24:17

best selling book by Michelle McNamara.

24:24

Sabrina Fulton is probably

24:26

best known as Trayvon's mom.

24:29

Trayvon Martin was seventeen years

24:32

old when he was killed while

24:34

walking home from a convenience

24:36

story in the middle of the day through

24:39

a neighborhood in Sanford, Florida.

24:42

Back in Trayvon

24:44

had been on his way home

24:47

after buying skittles and

24:49

a bottle of juice. The

24:52

man, a self styled vigilante,

24:54

who shot him, thought Trayvon

24:57

looked suspicious. Think about

24:59

it, a young black man in

25:01

a hoodie, minding his own business

25:04

coming home from a store, being

25:06

targeted, profiled, and killed

25:09

by a neighborhood vigilante

25:12

makes me just sick and angry

25:14

every time I think about it. I

25:17

got to know Sabrina starting

25:19

in her

25:21

grace, her strength, her

25:24

character was so impressive

25:26

to me. Together with Trayvon's

25:29

dad, Tracy Martin, Sabrina

25:31

created the Trayvon Martin Foundation,

25:34

which has been trying to work with

25:36

families who have lost kids to

25:39

violence, sometimes police violence,

25:41

sometimes random shootings

25:43

like what happened to Trayvon, and unfortunately

25:46

so many others. This past spring,

25:48

after working for twenty five years

25:51

for her county as a public servant,

25:54

Sabrina decided to run for office,

25:56

and when we spoke, she was in the middle

25:58

of her campaign for a seat on the

26:00

Miami Dade County Commission.

26:03

I was so proud of her because

26:05

she had campaigned with me and for

26:08

me in and she really

26:10

was a natural. It is always

26:13

a privilege and delight to talk

26:15

with Sabrina Fulton. Well,

26:20

you know, I want to talk with

26:22

you about something

26:24

that I think will help a lot of people,

26:27

namely how you keep going. You

26:30

know, I have been so grateful

26:33

to know you, to be

26:35

your friend, to see you in action over

26:37

the past several years, and

26:40

I do marvel at you.

26:43

You exemplify the kind

26:45

of grace that can only come from faith

26:47

and the kind of resilience that

26:50

so many people need but

26:52

don't know how to call up and

26:55

so welcome. Let me start

26:57

by asking you how

27:00

you see you know, the last

27:02

several years, ever since twelve

27:05

when Trayvon was murdered, the

27:08

process that you have had to live

27:10

over these years to be

27:13

who you are, so incredibly

27:17

determined and strong and still

27:19

trying to make a difference to help people. But

27:22

one of the things I learned early

27:25

on is it just felt like it was

27:27

so much pressure on me. I

27:29

was in a space that I had never been in, and

27:32

it just felt like everything was just like coming

27:34

down on me. Like every time there

27:36

was a shooting or killing or

27:38

something, people would reach out to me and

27:40

I didn't know how to handle it. I'm like, I'm

27:42

still going through my grief, how

27:45

do I handle helping someone else?

27:47

But that was the key, the key to my

27:49

own healing was the fact that I was

27:52

able to help somebody else. And

27:54

so I learned that early on. I

27:56

reached out to other mothers all over

27:58

the United States, and and that

28:00

was the key for helping me. A

28:03

lot of times we think that, Okay,

28:05

well, I'm in this square by myself.

28:07

Let me just deal with this by myself and my

28:09

own way and my own thing, do my own

28:11

things. But that's so not it.

28:14

It's it's about helping others. And the more

28:16

I reached out and helped up the us, the more

28:19

it took the pressure off of me

28:21

and what I was going through. And so

28:23

I certainly can tell you that I've I've

28:26

been through a lot. I've

28:28

been through a lot, but I just thank God

28:30

that he continued to carry me

28:33

and to move forward, because you

28:35

know, quite frankly, if I would have just

28:37

stayed home and did nothing and just been depressed,

28:39

people would have understood. But I

28:42

wasn't used to being on that street. I

28:44

wasn't used to being sad, and

28:46

just you know, feeling myself being

28:49

helpless and hopeless. I can tell

28:51

you that I live of

28:53

my life in an upbeat

28:56

and happy time, you know. And

28:58

then I found myself looking at here and I

29:00

could do nothing but cry, just look

29:03

in just tears, and I'm like, I didn't

29:05

want to be there. I didn't want to be sad and

29:07

depressed all the time. And so you

29:09

do have to make a decision that that's

29:11

something that that you want to you want

29:13

to come back from. I wanted to be happy again.

29:16

I wanted to smile, and I wanted to be around

29:18

people again, when in my mind

29:20

I felt that I would never get there. I

29:23

saw you with other mothers,

29:25

the mothers of the movement, who had lost

29:28

children to gun violence, as you

29:30

lost your son uh to police

29:32

actions, as others lost their

29:34

children, and I saw

29:37

how you often

29:39

would be the person who would

29:41

immediately pick up on a

29:44

difficult emotional moment for somebody

29:46

else, and you would walk over there

29:48

and stand and be not only

29:50

in witness but in support.

29:53

Were there some specific people

29:55

who helped you along the way to begin

29:58

to make that decision,

30:01

because you're right, it is a decision, but boy,

30:03

it's a hard decision. It's such a painful

30:05

decision to turn the most devastating

30:08

grief and anger about

30:10

what happened into

30:12

a choice to try to live

30:15

your life again, to try to help other people.

30:18

I tell people that I came from a

30:20

long line of strong women. I

30:22

grew up with my great grandmother and

30:25

my grandmother and my mother. My

30:27

brother got in a car accident some years

30:29

ago, and he's a quadriplegic, and

30:32

I watched how my mom was with

30:34

my brother, and I couldn't understand where

30:36

did she get that strength from? You

30:38

know, we would go to the hospital, and then

30:40

when he got a little better, we would go to rehab,

30:43

and I was like, oh my God, Like, if

30:45

something happened to one of my kids, like I

30:47

would probably just be a basket case, and

30:49

I just I just would watch her and

30:52

how strong she was and how how

30:54

she would encourage him. That

30:56

that's where a lot of it came from. A

30:59

lot of it came on. I also

31:01

had pastors that were around me that

31:03

supported me, that pray for me.

31:06

I can certainly say that the negative people

31:08

I kind of got away from um and

31:11

until this day, I kind of stay away

31:13

from the negativity. That's why I talk all

31:15

the time about positive energy

31:17

and positive people. When They're surrounding yourself

31:20

with positive influences

31:22

because that's the only way you're gonna move

31:24

forward. Anybody could tell you, know,

31:27

you can't do it. You don't have enough money, you're

31:29

not smart enough, you you don't have enough

31:31

education, you don't anybody can say that, But

31:33

it takes a real person with

31:36

character to say, yes, you can,

31:38

you can do it. I'm gonna help you. I'm gonna

31:40

inspire you, I'm gonna encourage you.

31:43

You also had another son, you

31:45

know. Javarus was the older brother.

31:47

He was nineteen when

31:50

Trayvon was murdered. How

31:52

did you help him? How

31:55

did you keep it together so

31:57

that you could continue to be the mother

31:59

that he needed, just like your own mom

32:02

when your brother had his accident,

32:04

had to take care of him, but also had to continue

32:07

to take care of you. Uh. For

32:09

Javaris, I always knew he

32:11

was watching, so I would be

32:14

very mindful. I was always

32:16

his role model. I was always trey Vonn's

32:18

role model as well. But I

32:20

knew that he was watching, and I wanted to

32:22

show him an example of how

32:25

to act during adverse

32:28

actions. When bad things happen

32:30

to good people, how do you handle those

32:32

things? How do you justify those

32:34

things? How do you come back from those things?

32:37

And so one of the things that I

32:39

tell him now, just like I tell you

32:42

know, I speak at a lot of colleges and universities,

32:44

and one of the things that I

32:46

tell the young people is stay focused.

32:49

A lot of times we get distracted by

32:51

somebody else's agenda. We have

32:53

to stay focused on our agenda. I

32:56

told him to make sure that he meditates

32:58

and that he praised. I told

33:00

him to make sure that

33:03

when he feels his rainy

33:05

days coming, how to handle

33:07

those rainy days, how to

33:09

embrace those rainy days, how

33:12

to allow himself to have a bad

33:14

day and then know that the sun

33:16

will come out again. A lot of

33:18

times we just go through our bad

33:21

days and we don't understand that the sun

33:23

will certainly come out again. Recognize

33:26

your bad days because you're gonna have them.

33:28

You're gonna have them your whole life. I still

33:30

have my bad days, there's no getting

33:32

around them. But I learned how

33:35

to maneuver through those bad days

33:37

because in the back of my mind, I know that

33:39

the sun will shine again. Amen.

33:42

Amen, We'll be

33:44

back right after this quick break.

33:47

You know, when you formed along with

33:50

Trayvon's father, Tracy, and your

33:52

son, the Trayvon Martin Foundation.

33:55

You had a vision for how

33:58

this foundation could

34:00

make a difference in the struggle

34:03

against gun violence and trying to prevent

34:06

gun violence, but also trying to provide

34:08

a place an opportunity for

34:11

people who had such terrible

34:13

losses to come together, like through the Circle

34:16

of Mothers that I was honored to participate

34:18

in. Can you tell our listeners

34:21

about the foundation, what it

34:23

does and how you hope

34:25

it will continue to play a role in dealing

34:27

with these injustices and problems

34:30

we face. Well, we have things

34:32

in place to ensure that

34:34

even after my life is done

34:36

and the next generation moves on,

34:38

that we have something in place to make sure

34:41

that um families understand

34:43

about what happened with Trayvon and so

34:45

many other Trayvon Martins

34:48

who are killed senselessly and

34:50

nobody is being held accountable. And

34:52

so we have things. Once a year

34:54

on February, we celebrate Trayvon's

34:57

birthday and not his death. And so

34:59

every year we do a peace walk because

35:01

we believe trayvonn had a right to walk

35:04

in peace without being followed.

35:06

Chase pursued profile and murder. We

35:08

also have a sit down dinner which is a

35:10

fundraiser, and they sing Happy

35:13

Birthday to Trayvonne. And every

35:15

year I say, I'm not gonna cry, and every year

35:17

a little tear forms in my eye, but I

35:20

guess that's my mom's side of me um.

35:23

And we do a back to school event

35:26

where we give away five hundred book bags

35:28

and school supplies. Tracy

35:30

does a Circle of Fathers where

35:32

he's bringing men together to strengthen

35:35

the family circle with

35:37

the men and make sure that they're better fathers,

35:40

better husband's brother sons,

35:42

better brothers. Those Circle of Mothers

35:45

is about healing empowerment, and

35:47

we bring moms in from all

35:49

over the United States and and hopes that they

35:51

can heal during a weekend together

35:54

to let them know that they're not alone and

35:57

for them to go through the process

35:59

of just knowing you have someone

36:01

in your corner, you have someone on your side,

36:03

because of course you know, as women,

36:05

we heal a little differently from me and

36:07

and you always believe when you see another

36:10

woman, if she can do what I can. We

36:12

also have a youth event

36:14

where we talk about we bring about kids

36:17

together and we talk about empowering

36:20

our young people like we talk about issues

36:22

with law enforcement. We talk about

36:24

social media and how you

36:27

present yourself on social media.

36:29

We talk about setting goals and themselves.

36:32

We talk about gun violence, We

36:34

talk about all of the subjects that they don't really

36:36

talk about in schools. I let them

36:38

beat up on me a little bit, because um

36:41

I come on as a parent and I let

36:43

them ask me questions about why their mom

36:45

or their dad did whatever, and

36:47

so it's it's really interesting

36:50

to listen to what they have to say, and

36:52

I give them my point of view of

36:54

why I think that they should not go

36:57

to parties with their friends if they're

36:59

with a bad group of friends. And

37:01

so that's usually a busy

37:03

schedule for me um on it

37:06

is, but I would encourage your listeners

37:09

to go to um Trayvon Martin Foundation

37:11

dot org. You know, they're able

37:13

to see some of the things that we do in

37:15

the community and on a national

37:18

level as well. It's so fascinating

37:20

to me because the

37:23

lothers of the movement. Two of you decided

37:25

to run for office. Lucy Macbeth,

37:28

whose son Jordan's was murdered,

37:30

ran for Congress, and you decided

37:32

to run in South Florida

37:35

where you grew up. Talk a little bit

37:37

about that decision, because you

37:39

know that's really putting yourself out there. How

37:41

did that come about? Well, I'm gonna

37:44

certainly say I have two thousand

37:46

and sixteen when I became

37:48

a surrogate for someone named

37:51

Ms. Clinton. Of

37:54

course it helped inspire

37:56

not only Lucy but myself.

37:58

I mean, it gave us like a bird's

38:00

eye view of what to expect. But

38:03

there are a few things that you did not tell

38:05

us because you made it look so easy

38:11

and it was not. You did not tell

38:13

me the struggle with

38:16

being a woman. That is

38:18

a struggle that we need to be aware of,

38:20

and I wasn't. The other thing is

38:23

the schedule, the calendar. Oh

38:25

my god, I knew

38:27

you were busy, but I didn't know you were that

38:29

busy, you know, so

38:33

I can feel every barely help time

38:35

to sleep. Oh I apologize, my

38:37

friend. I apologize, but

38:42

I can I can certainly tell you that I

38:44

was inspired by you know, you

38:46

running for office. And I was inspired

38:48

by Val Dimmons and

38:50

and Frederica Wilson and

38:52

Maxine Waters, Karen Brown,

38:55

Shilla Jackson Lee, like they

38:57

are so passionate about things

38:59

that it I feel the same way.

39:01

I feel I can't complain

39:04

about something unless I give myself

39:06

a chance to make improvements

39:08

in that area. Well, you are a woman after

39:10

my own heart, my dear, and uh

39:12

I so I so connect with

39:14

what you said. But I want to just ask before

39:17

we wrap up, how are you taking care

39:19

of yourself? Because you

39:21

know, you've always been so determined

39:24

and so intense about

39:27

helping other people, even before you ran

39:29

for office in your professional life

39:32

working for the county, following

39:34

the tragic murder of your

39:36

son, helping others, creating

39:39

the foundation. How are you taking

39:41

care of Sabrina. Well,

39:43

I was doing a pretty good job into

39:45

this pandemic came. So

39:48

I'm not only dealing with the

39:50

COVID virus. Is hurricane

39:52

season for us, we have some West

39:55

Nile virus. Is just a lot and stuff

39:57

going on in addition to you

39:59

know, the uh, racial inequality

40:02

that's happening here in the United States, and so

40:04

I'm doing a lot of um speaking

40:06

on those issues as well. But

40:09

for the most part, I take time out

40:11

every now and then when I can, and I

40:13

kind of just be with my family. We

40:16

have we try to have a Sunday dinner

40:18

or we try to watch a movie together, and

40:20

that that's my downturn. That's the time

40:23

where I can actually relax and let

40:25

my hair down. Well, you

40:27

make people proud every single day, Sabrina,

40:30

and whatever the future

40:32

holds for you, You're gonna keep helping, You're

40:34

gonna keep reaching out, You're gonna keep

40:36

making a difference in so many lives

40:38

around you. You've made a difference in my life. I

40:42

am so admiring

40:44

and really inspired by

40:47

your example. As we end,

40:49

how do you want people to

40:52

think about Trayvon because you

40:54

said something that touched me so much that

40:56

you celebrate his birthday. Leave

40:58

us with some thoughts about how you want

41:00

us to remember Kim, or

41:02

a particular memory that you

41:05

think about that helps to ground you. Well,

41:08

I can tell you I'm gonna leave on a happy note.

41:10

How about that. I'm gonna leave on

41:12

the fact that Trayvonn was a

41:15

mama's boy. Trayvon love,

41:18

love, love his family, And

41:21

it didn't matter where I saw him.

41:23

I could be at a park, I could be

41:26

uh, coming down the street in my car.

41:28

He's on the sidewalk jumping up and down,

41:30

like you know. He was very affectionate,

41:33

and so wherever he saw me, he had

41:35

to come and give me a tight hug

41:38

and give me a kiss. And I missed that,

41:40

but I remember it, and so um

41:43

I think about that on my rainy

41:45

days that I mentioned earlier. I think about

41:48

the tight squeezes he used to give me

41:50

in the in the kisses and the

41:52

fact that he used to call me cupcake. Oh

41:58

my gosh, I love that. Oh

42:00

wow, thank you for sharing that that. Really

42:02

I will. I will keep that in my heart

42:05

and think about it. Thank you so much

42:07

for everything that you're doing and continue

42:10

to inspire us, continue to

42:12

show us that even when when

42:14

things are not going right and things are not

42:16

going your way, you just keep it moving. And

42:18

so I see that in you, and

42:21

that's where I get it from. We're gonna keep doing it together.

42:24

Thank you, my friend. Now,

42:30

Sabrina lost her race for county

42:32

commissioner, but you know what, she only

42:35

lost by three hundred and thirty

42:37

one votes, less than one percent.

42:40

It was her first time running

42:42

for office, but I sure hope it won't

42:44

be the last. For more information

42:47

on the incredible work that she and

42:49

Trayvon's dad are doing in memory

42:51

of their Son, visit Trayvon Martin

42:54

Foundation dot org now

42:57

and in other tough times. I hope

42:59

we can all take inspiration from

43:01

Sabrina and Patton to turn our

43:04

grief into action. One

43:06

action you can take is vote,

43:09

Please vote, Make a plan, figure

43:11

out when, where, how you'll get there,

43:13

and then call up three friends or family

43:16

members or neighbors and tell them to

43:18

do the same. It is much better

43:20

than just yelling at the TV. You

43:24

and Me Both is brought to you by I

43:27

Heart Radio. We're produced

43:29

by Julie Subran and Kathleen Russo,

43:31

with help from Kuma Aberdeen, Nikki

43:34

E Tour, Oscar Flores, Rihanna

43:37

Johnson, Nick Merrill, Lauren

43:39

Peterson, Rob Russo, and

43:42

Lona Valmorro. Our engineer

43:44

is Zap McNeice. Original

43:47

music is by Forest Gray

43:49

and a big thanks to Riverside FM.

43:52

Just imagine we needed a recording

43:55

platform that could help us make

43:57

a podcast during a pandemic

43:59

and did they step up. If

44:02

you like You and Me Both, spread the word,

44:04

don't keep it to yourself. You can subscribe

44:07

to You and Me Both on the I Heart Radio

44:09

app, Apple Podcasts or wherever

44:11

you get your podcasts. And while you're

44:13

there, leave us a review. It's a great

44:15

way to help other people discover us,

44:18

and we'd love to hear from you, So send

44:20

us your questions, your comments, your

44:22

ideas or suggestions

44:25

for future shows to you and

44:27

me, both pod at gmail

44:29

dot com. Come back next

44:31

week when we're talking about the promise

44:34

and the limits of the American Dream

44:36

with economist Rod Chetty, long

44:39

time immigration reform advocate

44:41

Lorella pray Lee, and the one

44:44

and only Tan France

44:46

from the Netflix series Queer. I.

44:49

I wanted to be an American system

44:51

pretty much my whole life, and

44:53

so the moment that it happened,

44:56

I was so overcome with emotion. The

44:58

all I could do was donuts because

45:00

that was the most American thing I could think of. I went

45:02

to the donuts shop down the street and

45:05

eight donuts, and that was my version of being a

45:07

true American. Don't miss it, Ye