0:01

I'm Hillary Clinton, and this is

0:03

you and me, both for

0:06

this season finale. I'm

0:09

coming to you from my home in New

0:11

York, place called Chappaquah,

0:14

not far from the city, and

0:16

joining me is a special guest who

0:18

really needs no introduction, the

0:20

forty second President and

0:23

my husband, Bill Clinton.

0:25

So welcome to the show.

0:26

Bill and I think this is kind

0:29

of an interesting first

0:31

in a way because we've been having

0:34

conversations big and small

0:36

about literally everything for

0:38

over fifty years, but we've

0:40

never done this before where

0:43

we have sat down to record

0:45

a conversation just the two

0:47

of us.

0:48

So people might be wondering what

0:50

we've been saying for fa few years.

0:51

Well, this will give them a little glimpse

0:54

into our never ended

0:56

conversation. There's so much

0:58

to talk about. Let's start

1:01

with some global issues that

1:03

we've been thinking and talking a

1:06

lot about lately. Bill,

1:08

I would really like for you to share

1:10

with our listeners a brief

1:12

window into the work that you

1:14

did as president to bring

1:17

the Israelis and Palestinians

1:19

together to

1:22

create a state for the

1:24

Palestinians. You

1:26

started at the very beginning of

1:28

your presidency with the Oslo

1:31

Accords, and we're literally working

1:33

on this at the historic Camp

1:36

David Summit toward the end of your

1:38

term.

1:39

Give our listeners some.

1:40

Insight into what you saw

1:43

and did during your eight years as president

1:46

to deal with this very challenging

1:49

situation.

1:51

Well, I'll try to do it in a way that is still relevant

1:53

to what is going on today. And I

1:56

have been utterly stunned

2:00

the lack of knowledge of

2:02

what happened before all

2:04

this mess occurred that we're living through now.

2:08

So first, shortly

2:10

after I was elected, we were numbified

2:14

that the Israelis and the Palestinians

2:17

were talking in Oslo, Norway,

2:20

and that they might come up with a

2:23

plan for a peace process. But if they

2:25

did, they wanted America to kind of oversee

2:27

it. Both sides sort of trusted

2:30

America back then, so

2:33

we started. And then shortly

2:35

after I became president, in

2:38

my first year anyway, in September, we had the

2:40

signing of the so called Olo Accords

2:44

on the south lawn of the White House,

2:46

and it was a very hopeful time. Yasa

2:49

Arafat was there, obviously,

2:51

Shimone Perez was there as the Foreign

2:53

Minister to Prime Minister. It's

2:55

Acrabine and lots of other people

2:58

who became a part of our almost

3:00

everyday life. You remember the eight years I

3:02

was in the White House. We worked

3:05

for eight solid years. So

3:08

it's very important that people understand

3:11

where this was then, because

3:14

there was an enormous hunger

3:17

in Israel to have a piece deal

3:19

that would give the Palestinians their state. We

3:23

had a prime minister first in

3:25

Rabin, who literally

3:27

gave his life. He was

3:29

murdered because he was trying to get this two

3:31

state solution. It

3:33

broke my heart. I loved him as much as any man

3:36

I've ever known, and we but it's

3:38

hard to explain now that you

3:40

know, we were all working together all the

3:42

time. We were talking a shorthand to each other,

3:44

including the Palestinian leaders

3:46

in the Israelis and me personally.

3:49

So Rabine was.

3:51

Killed and that was what nineteen ninety

3:53

five, late.

3:54

Nineteen ninety five November, Okay,

3:56

So after Rabin was killed, Paris

3:59

was Prime minister for wild and Nettanil

4:03

who got in. Then in nineteen ninety

4:05

eight, something truly remarkable happened. We had

4:07

the only year at

4:09

that time, the first year in the history of Israel,

4:12

when not a single solitary person

4:14

was killed by a terrorist incident, and

4:18

it was stunning. We finally

4:20

had a year when it all worked,

4:22

and it's impossible to believe

4:25

now, but I mean, you had the Israeli

4:27

intelligence fausting intelligence

4:29

and the American CIA

4:31

working hand in glove with others

4:34

trying to keep people alive. Was fascinating.

4:37

Okay. So then in nineteen

4:39

ninety eight there was an election in

4:42

which the people of Israel said,

4:44

let's try again for peace, and

4:46

that's how Ahudbarok, who was the most decorative

4:49

soldier in Israeli history, became

4:51

Prime Minister. And this

4:53

is the important thing for people to know. Now, this is

4:56

not all that long ago, twenty five

4:58

years ago. We all

5:00

we're working together, and

5:02

we kept turning over more land to the Palestinians

5:05

and kept, you know, moving forward on

5:07

all these other issues. And finally

5:10

at the end of my term, near

5:12

the end, we decided to meet at Camp David

5:15

because the Palestinians had still

5:17

never actually said what

5:19

they would accept. So

5:22

we met at Camp David, and I never thought

5:24

we'd get an agreement there. All the stuff

5:27

you read today, almost one hundred percent

5:29

of it is just hooey for people who either

5:31

weren't there or have bad memories,

5:34

and I was personally involved in this.

5:36

This wasn't some handed over to my aids.

5:40

So what we wanted to know what Camp David is

5:42

how much will the traffic bear here? Where? Is there

5:44

going to be a deal that the Palestinians

5:47

will have a state, It will be sustainable

5:49

economically and politically and

5:52

supportable, and it will lead to a

5:54

total end of the conflict and a

5:57

new era of partnership. There

6:00

were people who didn't like that, including

6:03

Hamas. Hamas never

6:05

signed on to this. Their goal was

6:07

always to get rid of Israel.

6:09

They've always been for the elimination

6:11

of Israel.

6:12

The elimination they wanted to.

6:13

Doubt in their actions,

6:16

their their documents, or anything.

6:18

Else they always wanted to make. Used

6:20

to talk about making Israel unlivable

6:22

so all the people would just leave.

6:26

So here we go. We go to Camp

6:28

David, and after that I had a pretty good

6:30

idea of what they would and wouldn't take as

6:32

a state.

6:33

And what Israel would and wouldn't give

6:36

exactly.

6:37

So we worked for

6:40

a little while after Camp David, and both sides

6:42

then asked me to offer a final

6:44

proposal where they would basically

6:47

fill in the blanks. And

6:49

this is what our listeners need to know. This

6:51

is what was offered, what

6:54

Israel agreed to. I

6:56

recommended that there'd

6:59

be two states, that

7:02

Israel is within the sixty

7:04

seven borders as the UN resolutions

7:06

called for, with some land adjustments

7:09

to cover eighty plus percent

7:11

of the settlers on the West Bank, which

7:14

were then under one hundred thousand,

7:16

far fewer than now, And

7:19

that the Palestinians get

7:22

the West Bank called for in the

7:24

Oslo courts, plus Gaza,

7:26

of course, plus four percent

7:28

of Israel to make up for the four

7:31

percent necessary to include

7:33

the settlers. And that

7:35

the West Bank and Gaza be connected by

7:38

overhead highways that were

7:40

subject to no checks,

7:43

total free movement, and that there

7:46

be you know, agreed upon prison releases

7:48

and all that so that we could settle the populations

7:50

as much as possible. The

7:52

Palestinians would get a capital in East Jerusalem.

7:55

That was a big known onn Israeli politics

7:57

for years. You can never agree to divide Jerusalem

8:00

a hood. Barack's cabinet supported

8:03

a capital in East Jerusalem for

8:05

the Palacinians. It

8:07

was a pretty good deal. I mean it's unthinkable

8:10

today, that's how close we

8:12

were. There were listening

8:14

posts in the West Bank which

8:17

Israel had, which they said at

8:19

the time they were right. They said, we can't

8:21

dismantle these now because of Saddam

8:24

Hussein and because we don't have a peace agreement

8:26

with Syria with Osat, so

8:30

we will let the Palacinians have equal

8:32

access and effect. Every time we're up fair,

8:34

they can be up there, because we

8:37

all understood that if we had a peace

8:39

agreement with a new state, the

8:42

enemies of peace would try to kill

8:44

the leaders of both sides for

8:47

at least three or four years.

8:49

Remember, they killed unwar Sadad Yep

8:51

after Egypt made peace.

8:52

Who killed Saddad an Egyptian

8:55

who thought he was a bad Muslim and a bad Egyptian

8:57

for making peace? Who Robine

9:01

and Israeli who came from a

9:03

radical settler group who thought he had betrayed

9:06

his faith in his nation by making

9:08

peace with his neighbors and

9:10

trying to give the Palestinians estate, who

9:13

destroyed a hood Barocks government, the

9:15

settlers who didn't want him to give

9:17

the Palestinians estate. Now,

9:20

you can't live in the past, but let's

9:22

look at what happened after that. After I left

9:24

office.

9:25

Well, I think it's important though, before you go there. You

9:28

made the offer that you've just described. Yeah,

9:30

I did, and the Israelis accepted it.

9:32

And the Israelis accepted it, and

9:35

Palistinians wanted a few more

9:37

blocks for Christian churches in the

9:39

Old City. They wanted a clear

9:42

say, which we gave

9:44

them on what countries would

9:46

be in an international security force that

9:48

we would put on the eastern flank of the Palestinian

9:51

state. We're owning over

9:53

a few blocks of the Old City of Jerusalem.

9:56

So I laid all this out there.

10:00

Six weeks before I left office,

10:02

Yah Sir Arafat was in town.

10:05

He came by the Seami and I wanted

10:08

to see him alone. And keep in mind,

10:10

the United Nations had designated Arafat

10:13

to represent the Palestinians. So

10:17

I asked him, I said, are we

10:19

going to do this peace deal? He

10:22

said sure. I said no, no, No. I said,

10:24

this is serious because

10:26

I have a chance to go to North Korea and

10:28

make an agreement with them that could end their nuclear

10:30

program and their missile program and

10:33

take a dark cloud off the future of North

10:35

Asia. But American president

10:38

can't just drop down on North Korea for the

10:40

first time since the end of the Korean War. I have to

10:42

go to South Korea. I have to go to Japan,

10:44

which still had prisoners in North Korea.

10:48

I have to go to Russia and China,

10:50

which were the co sponsors of the peace.

10:54

He said, well, how long will it take? I said about twelve

10:57

days if I don't sleep, and

10:59

he said, oh, you can't do that. It's

11:02

the only time I was ever with their fat where

11:04

I saw tears in his eyes. He

11:07

said, you can't do that. I said,

11:09

why, because you're going

11:11

to sign this deal when we get it done, and

11:13

it needs to look like I'm putting heavy pressure

11:15

on you. He said, sure, yes, you

11:18

can't go away. I

11:20

said, okay, but you just owe me the truth. If you're

11:22

not going to do this, you have to tell me. He

11:25

said, my god, if we don't do it while you're here,

11:27

it may be ten years, twenty years, maybe

11:29

forever. We have to

11:31

do it now. He had never

11:33

ever lied to me. He was hard to get a commitment

11:36

out of, but he never lied,

11:39

and so he

11:42

just it never happened.

11:45

I don't know whether he was afraid

11:47

he would be killed immediately, but

11:49

he certainly wasn't afraid. He spent the night in

11:51

a different place for twenty years

11:54

every night. In other words, people were

11:56

trying to kill him too. All this time, everybody

11:58

acts like, all this is a free run, you know. It's

12:01

if you try to make peace between people who've

12:03

been fighting, the people who have an

12:05

interest in the fighting will try to stop you.

12:09

So anyway, the date

12:11

came and the date went, and

12:15

I have now listened for over twenty years

12:17

to people tell me why Camp

12:19

David was a failure. It wasn't. It was never

12:21

designed to get a final agreement. No one

12:23

in their right mind who'd been

12:26

dealing with this believed that we could

12:28

get an agreement. To Camp David, what we could get

12:30

is a Pelsinians to tell us exactly

12:33

where a deal might be, and

12:35

then we pushed like crazy to get it. And

12:39

even after I left, we had

12:41

one more month in

12:43

which they were working, and I

12:46

was wearing air fat out by then. I said,

12:48

why aren't you doing this deal? Don't you understand?

12:50

He said, well, the Israelis are two week to

12:52

make the deal. Now, Barack's going to lose the election.

12:55

I say, he's going to lose the election because you let

12:58

him get way out on his ledge, and you haven't taking

13:00

this deal, and instead you started

13:02

the second Intifado. I

13:05

said, but I still have a seventy four

13:07

percent approval riating in Israel, and

13:09

we're going to ratify this deal or

13:11

defeat it in an election. And

13:15

he never said yes, he never said no,

13:17

and he just I mean, that's basically

13:20

what happened, and we're living

13:22

with this that we could have had twenty five years.

13:24

Imagine this of a Palaesinian.

13:27

State, or twenty three years.

13:29

That'd be twenty three years of Palasinian

13:31

state on the West Bank and Gaza

13:34

with no checkpoints, no stops,

13:36

no nothing. And

13:38

look what happened afterward. Ariel

13:40

Sharon defeated net

13:43

Nyahu for Prime Minister, and then

13:45

the only question was which

13:47

hardliner would win, because the

13:49

Israeli voters by then said, oh my god,

13:51

if they won't take what Barak

13:54

and his cabinet offered, they're

13:56

not going to take anything. Well, this elect

13:58

the toughest guy we can.

14:04

We'll be back right after this quick break

14:14

before we move on to something else that's

14:16

not quite as you know, terrible

14:18

as war. We are still

14:21

in the midst of trying to help Ukraine

14:23

against the savage invasion

14:25

by Russia. And Congress is

14:27

currently debating the terms of a foreign aid

14:30

package which is necessary

14:32

to provide further funding and support to Ukraine.

14:35

And you're seeing the opposition

14:37

to helping Ukraine primarily but not

14:39

exclusively in the Republican Party.

14:42

So you think we're.

14:43

Going to get aid to help Ukraine, which

14:46

is you know, in a very difficult

14:48

position because obviously it

14:51

doesn't have the population that Russia does. Russia's

14:53

emptied its jails, for heaven's sakes to

14:55

put people on the front line as literally

14:57

cannon fodder. Russia

15:00

has much more resources than Ukraine

15:02

to keep putting advanced

15:04

weaponry. How

15:07

do you see that current conflict because

15:09

there are people in our country. You don't understand

15:11

that if Putin gets away with this in Ukraine,

15:14

watch out, because he's not going to stop. Oh.

15:17

I think this is one of the most momentous

15:19

decisions we have to make that will

15:21

affect the next twenty or thirty years. The

15:24

United States cannot walk away from

15:26

Ukraine. I think

15:28

there are two things going on. The

15:30

Republicans in the Congress are

15:33

using this to try to force

15:35

the Democrats and the White House to agree

15:38

to more restrictions along the border,

15:41

because that feeds into their narrative

15:43

that this is a big parble problem and

15:45

it's the end of the world is at the hand if

15:48

one more immigrant gets into the country.

15:51

That's part of it. But it's

15:53

also true that there is a

15:55

core in our Congress

15:58

that seems to turn to do

16:01

whatever Vladimir Putin wants

16:03

because he works so hard to help them

16:06

get the White House in twenty sixteen.

16:08

And you know, this is

16:10

not a game. It's not just what's

16:13

in the best interests of one political

16:15

party or another. What they

16:17

really want the Russians is

16:20

the metals and precious earths

16:22

in eastern Ukraine, and Ukraine

16:24

and Russia together have thirty percent of

16:26

the world's wheat production. So

16:30

I don't know if there's any non

16:32

violent endo this, but I know that

16:34

there will be no non violent into

16:37

it unless we stay with Ukraine.

16:40

Look, they haven't asked a single American

16:42

to die for them. They haven't asked anybody

16:44

else to fight and die for them. All

16:46

they've asked us to do is to deal

16:49

with Putin and his allies, giving

16:52

him an almost insurmountable economic

16:55

and military advantage and I

16:57

think if we walk away from them, we will

16:59

be paying for it thirty years from now. I

17:01

think you have no idea. No

17:04

one will trust the United States anymore

17:06

as a partner. No one will believe

17:08

we really care about freedom anymore. They

17:10

will think this is everything's just the deal. What

17:13

helps me today, what helps me tomorrow. We

17:15

have no permanent values and convictions.

17:17

I think it'll be a terrible mistake, but we

17:20

may have to make a deal with the Republicans. I

17:22

think, you know, there's some things that could

17:25

be done along the border that wouldn't be

17:27

so bad, because we are

17:29

dealing with volumes of people

17:31

coming in far greater than

17:34

we've had in my lifetime.

17:37

And it's not just America. It's happening everywhere.

17:39

There's this huge upheaval

17:42

in the world. So I think

17:44

they ought to get together and try to work that out. But

17:47

it is true that there is a cadre on

17:49

the right that believes that Putin

17:51

ought to win, and they're just wrong. They

17:54

can't imagine unless

17:56

you don't care about democracy and don't care if

17:58

we prevail, that this is this is a

18:01

big, big deal, and yes it

18:03

costs some money. But they haven't

18:05

asked us to die for them. They've asked us to

18:07

give them a chance to live, and

18:09

we ought to do it. Well.

18:11

You know, you mentioned migration, and one

18:14

of the increasing reasons

18:16

for migration is the impact of

18:18

climate change that is

18:20

affecting, you know, people's

18:22

ability to actually make a living, to

18:25

be farmers in many parts, you

18:27

know, they deal with drought and

18:30

wildfires and flooding

18:32

and erosion, landslides, all of

18:34

that. And I just came back from

18:37

the Climate Conference COP twenty eight

18:39

in Dubai, which was both

18:41

energizing because there are so many people trying

18:44

so hard to deal with you

18:46

know, the two halfs of the you

18:48

know, the puzzle to try to

18:51

mitigate the rising temperatures

18:53

before it is too late, and try to help

18:55

people adapt to the rising temperatures

18:57

that are actually with us right now. And

19:00

you've worked on climate change issues all

19:02

over the world, particularly through

19:04

the Clinton Global Initiative and all

19:07

of its many commitments and partnerships.

19:10

So what gives you hope in this fight

19:12

against climate change?

19:14

First of all, I think there continues

19:17

to be a passion among young

19:19

people to do something about this, an

19:22

awareness and acceptance, a refusal

19:25

to live in denial, and

19:28

I think that's very hopeful. Secondly,

19:31

every year, practically every

19:33

month unveils new opportunities

19:36

to generate more energy

19:38

with fewer emissions, or

19:40

to be more efficient in doing

19:43

work around the world. They're all these opportunities.

19:47

So the real challenges

19:49

in getting leaders in place in every

19:51

country from the national

19:54

level down, who will hammer

19:56

out the practical answers of this. This is

19:58

you know, this is not a partiticularly ideological

20:01

issue. This is a if you do

20:03

one, two, three things, you'll get four or five

20:05

six results. And I think we're it's

20:08

an important thing that we're there. We

20:10

don't have many open denihilists anymore.

20:12

And that's the thing that gives me hope. That and the kids.

20:15

I think that young people, if they just keep pushing,

20:18

there's still an enormous amount

20:21

that we could do. For example,

20:23

in this country, that would actually

20:25

be job creators, that will add

20:27

more jobs to the economy, that will brighten

20:30

the future and reduce the

20:32

emissions.

20:33

Well, Bill, you know, you've had some

20:36

really interesting chances to travel

20:38

this year and met

20:41

some remarkable people. And I don't want to go

20:43

through a travelogue, but maybe you could

20:45

just quickly describe one of

20:47

your most recent trips to

20:50

Albania. You know, I think as we

20:52

are in the holiday season, people

20:54

want to hear about some hope. They want to

20:56

hear that progress is possible. They want

20:58

to feel that people, you know, can

21:00

come together. And you saw an experience.

21:03

I did that. I think there are

21:05

lots of reasons to be hopeful looking around the

21:07

world. I mean, we also went to

21:09

Northern Ireland to celebrate the twenty five years

21:12

of the peace process. And even

21:14

though they're fighting over the government,

21:16

nobody wants to go back to the conflict,

21:20

and the Irish keep voting for more inclusive

21:23

candidates, policies, futures.

21:25

So then you know, I went to Albania,

21:28

which is the Albania was

21:30

just thirty years ago the

21:33

last closed Stalinist

21:35

dictatorship, and

21:37

their dictator committed suicide and

21:41

they opened the country and they decided

21:43

to go in a total opposite direction.

21:46

And at the same time

21:48

when I got involved with them a little

21:50

later, Kosovo, which is part

21:53

was part of Serbia at the time, but

21:56

basically it was over ninety something

21:58

percent in Albanian was for

22:00

its existence against Melosovich and

22:02

Serbia, and so Hillary

22:05

and I became very involved. We're

22:08

living here in Chapqua, New York, and New York

22:10

has the largest Albanian population

22:12

outside Albania, and a lot of

22:14

it's concentrated along where we live. Down

22:17

this block from where I'm talking, we

22:20

have two coast of our Albanian

22:22

families. So I went

22:24

there. I'd never been to Albania before,

22:27

and Edi Rama, the Prime Minister, met

22:29

me. He's a former

22:32

mayor of Toronto, but he's also

22:35

a gifted artist and a former

22:37

basketball player. He is about six foot six and

22:40

I stayed in what was the official

22:42

Communist guest house in Stalinus

22:45

days and it's

22:47

a picture of how the world

22:49

can move from close to open, how

22:52

the world can move from war to peace.

22:56

The new cabinet is about forty

22:58

percent female, the

23:00

new Parliament is about the same.

23:03

It's as one of the most the youngest,

23:05

most vigorous, and most gender balanced

23:08

governments in Europe. So I wish

23:10

the whole world could go

23:12

to Albania for a day or two. I mean,

23:14

it's just such a beautiful place,

23:17

and they know what it's like to lose all their freedom.

23:20

They're not having these debates that we're having

23:22

in America. All they wanted

23:24

to talk about was the future?

23:26

You know, you told me one of the most moving

23:29

parts of your experience is that they

23:31

brought together all these children who

23:34

their parents had named for you, and you

23:36

got to meet dozens of children

23:38

who were named Bill or William or

23:40

Clinton.

23:42

Yeah, it was amazing, but it was optimistic.

23:45

It was the thing I think is important.

23:47

I wish every American could have seen it, not because

23:49

of me, but because that's what

23:51

people think of America. It's what people think we

23:54

ought to be doing, saving lives,

23:56

lifting people together, recognizing

23:58

people's right to be and chart

24:01

their own course. It was so touching.

24:09

We'll be right back.

24:18

Well, we're about to go into

24:20

another election year, and I

24:23

think the stakes could not be higher.

24:25

What is your assessment of the

24:28

stakes of this election in a

24:30

way that our listeners can really

24:33

take to heart and think about as we move forward.

24:36

Well, first, I think we should be under

24:38

no illusion there are

24:41

a lot of Republicans who are just good

24:43

Americans who disagree with Democrats

24:45

like you and me. That's fine, But there

24:47

is a hardcore now out there who

24:49

believe so strongly that there are

24:52

dominance of the cultural issues

24:55

and the political issues is essential,

24:58

and that they're willing to basically say

25:00

goodbye to our democracy, and

25:03

I don't want to say good about our democracy. I

25:05

kind of like it here. I like

25:07

all these arguments, and I like uncertainties,

25:10

and I like fights, you know,

25:13

in a good sense.

25:14

And even finding common ground to compromise

25:16

to find solutions for problems.

25:19

You know, I talk to people all the time who were

25:22

even people who were big opponents

25:24

of mine when I was president, who say,

25:26

you know, we're actually on the verge of using

25:28

our democracy. Liz

25:30

Cheney wrote this new book you know about it.

25:33

I understand how a lot of people don't

25:35

believe that or can't believe that, and

25:38

they have so much to do every

25:40

week to pay their bills, keep body

25:42

and soul together, think about the things their

25:44

kids needs. I understand that. But

25:47

we literally have a chance to

25:50

lose the democratic wealth life

25:52

we have been trying to perfect

25:55

over two hundred years. And it's

25:57

not just majority rule, it's also minority

25:59

rights, rule of law, individual rights,

26:02

restraints on what government can

26:04

and can't do, And so I

26:06

think that's important. I

26:09

agree there are imminent challenges

26:11

that we have to address, but it's

26:13

interesting almost every problem we've got, let's

26:15

take immigration. This

26:17

is actually a huge opportunity if

26:20

we did like Canada does, for

26:22

example, if people had to

26:25

sponsor immigrants, not take

26:27

financial responsibility for them, but you

26:30

know, set up centers where they could work.

26:32

What happens is only the places

26:34

in Canada where people want immigrants

26:37

get immigrants, and they're filling

26:40

labor holes all the time that need to be filled.

26:43

I mean, look at America has got

26:45

a negative birth rate. There

26:47

are places in this country that have huge

26:50

shortages of workers, and

26:53

most of these folks are just asking for a chance

26:55

to work. I mean that's just one example.

26:58

So if we were tactical

27:00

instead of ideological, if

27:03

we were just sitting down from opposite

27:05

points of view to solve problems, I think

27:07

most of this stuff could be a lot better. You

27:10

know, George Bush and I do this

27:12

leadership program together and it's

27:14

about half Republican, half Democrat. We

27:16

get together and meet with them

27:18

and they try to solve problems

27:21

together.

27:21

These are mid career people.

27:22

Yeah, they're mid career people basically from twenty

27:25

eight to forty two more or less.

27:28

And the only requirement for getting in our program

27:30

is you have to have something to do that

27:32

you do besides your day job, you have to have some interest

27:34

in something else. And it's been

27:37

a joy because they go to his library

27:39

in mine and we meet with them, and they go to

27:41

the LBJ library and his father's

27:44

library, and they learn

27:46

how other people dealt with problems,

27:48

and then they agree to work on

27:50

certain problems. Once they

27:52

agree to work on a problem, more

27:55

than seventy percent of the time they reach

27:57

a consensus about what to do about it.

28:00

It's fascinating. So he and I

28:02

have had a good time, but we have about decided

28:04

we're troglodites were the We

28:07

are the dinosaurs of the current age.

28:09

Maybe because everything

28:11

now is supposed to be a continuous fight and

28:14

it's highly lucrative for the media, but

28:16

it's a lousy way to.

28:17

Run a railroad, you know.

28:19

As I said, we have carried

28:21

on a conversation now for more than fifty

28:23

years, and you know, part

28:25

of I think the

28:27

real core of our relationships,

28:30

our marriage has been we started a

28:32

conversation and we never stopped, through

28:35

good times and hard times, through happy

28:38

times and sad times. It doesn't

28:40

mean we don't get frustrated and upset with the

28:42

other, because that's human nature, but we

28:45

always kept talking. You know, I'm not

28:47

giving relationship advice. Everybody

28:50

has to find their own way. But I think

28:52

our ability to keep talking is

28:54

one of the reasons why we're still sitting here together.

28:57

Yeah, I did too, I think you

28:59

know, we've just came home

29:01

from going to that cop and

29:03

she got a little sick on the trip. She

29:05

hadn't been home two minutes before.

29:07

I knew what was wrong,

29:09

what was right after she was feeling. That

29:12

happens if you invest time in somebody

29:16

over a long time, and

29:19

we can talk a lot about how people have to talk about

29:21

everything. I think one of the gifts

29:23

you get from investing time in somebody

29:25

over a long time is what

29:28

you don't have to say what

29:30

you see and know without

29:32

anybody saying something.

29:35

You know.

29:36

There is no perfect handbook

29:39

for life. You have to figure it out

29:41

as you go along. And you've

29:43

always got to decide whether

29:46

whatever commitment you make in whatever

29:48

way or fulfilling

29:52

that the bonds of love and the benefits

29:54

of love outweigh the

29:56

burdens and the frustrations. And

29:58

that's a decision nobody can make for you. But

30:02

we do know that people in general

30:05

are social animals. That's why

30:07

I think all this hate based politics

30:09

they so bad for us. So you

30:12

know, the idea that our differences

30:14

are so much more important than what we have in common.

30:17

And you know, I may sound Pollyanna, but I've

30:19

lived for this for a long time and buy this.

30:22

And I have always

30:25

believed that we should keep trying

30:27

to understand one another and keep reaching

30:29

out to each other. And I

30:31

believe that whether it starts with Hillary

30:33

and me or anybody else's

30:35

family, or the children or grandchildren

30:37

we have, it's a gift to be alive.

30:40

It carries burdens, it carries challenges,

30:44

but I think just remembering that is

30:46

important. We should just never

30:48

take it for granted, never take it for granted.

30:51

And I'm actually pretty optimistic,

30:53

I always have been, but I have

30:56

been very worried at this moment

30:58

in history that our capacity city

31:00

to grow and cooperation

31:03

and understanding is a

31:06

little bit under out.

31:08

I want to end Bill by telling our

31:10

listeners that you, I believe are

31:13

Santa's Chief Elf. I

31:15

have never met anybody

31:19

who loves Christmas as much

31:21

as you do. Literally,

31:23

from the moment we started dating,

31:26

I realized you were totally

31:29

consumed by Christmas. By the

31:32

decorating, the gift giving,

31:35

the tree trimming, the church

31:38

services, everything about

31:40

Christmas. And I know that,

31:43

you know, while I was in Dubai at the Climate

31:45

conference, you were putting ornaments on the tree

31:47

and you know, starting to decorate the

31:49

house, which I thank you for very

31:51

much. You know, but I think of your

31:54

fundamentally optimistic and

31:56

hopeful spirit as really reaching

31:59

a christ Shindo every year around

32:01

Christmas. And you know we

32:04

now have our three grandchildren who

32:07

make you know, Christmas so

32:10

meaningful to us. And what

32:12

are some of your favorite things

32:14

to do during Christmas and your

32:17

you know love of this season and what

32:19

it represents.

32:21

Well, it is true I am the ultimate Christmas

32:23

Elf. Even

32:25

when I was in the White House, I wrapped my own Christmas

32:28

present, and I didn't

32:30

do it for brownie points. I did it because I like

32:32

it and because I think it put me in the right

32:35

humor. The whole idea of

32:37

the fundamental gifts of life

32:40

and making new beginning and

32:42

thinking of other people and

32:44

loving them as yourselves and trying

32:46

to do that that's always

32:49

been important to me. Last night

32:51

I put the ornaments on our Christmas

32:53

tree, and I admit the

32:55

older I get the fewer I put out used

32:58

to be the tree was about to

33:00

teeth over every time, because I mean,

33:02

we've been married a long time and I have a couple of

33:04

ornaments to go back to before we got married.

33:06

So and you always know if we didn't bring

33:08

all the boxes up, because you always

33:11

say to me, well, where was that ornament, you know, the one

33:13

that we got when Chelsea was born or whatever

33:15

the you know, the provenance might be.

33:17

But anyway, I think

33:19

it's a good thing for people to

33:22

be grateful for their blessings and to

33:25

count them and to recognize

33:27

that most people, no matter how

33:30

difficult life is for them, can

33:32

always think of somebody who's worse off

33:34

and in greater need, and therefore

33:37

we should try to lift them up. I

33:39

also love being with our grandchildren

33:41

Christmas time. I love going to their Christmas

33:44

pageants. I love going to the

33:46

church pageants. I love going

33:48

to see the rockets

33:51

at Radio City, and

33:54

I guess we'll go to the train show with the Botanical

33:57

Garden. For it's all over being

33:59

a great parent at Christmas. If

34:02

you live in and around New York, it's pretty fun

34:04

because there's so many things for your grandchildren

34:06

to go gaga over.

34:07

I love them well.

34:10

We want to wish everyone a really

34:12

really happy holiday season. Happy

34:15

Hanukkah to everyone

34:17

out there who is lighting candles

34:19

trying to bring some light into the dark. Merry

34:21

Christmas to everyone out there who is getting

34:23

ready to celebrate Christmas,

34:26

and particularly a happy, healthy

34:29

and peaceful New

34:31

Year.

34:32

I still believe in a place

34:34

called hope.

34:35

Yes for the monotheist

34:38

there is where I think somehow the

34:41

Muslims and the Christians and the

34:43

Jews can, will,

34:45

and must be reconciled. This

34:47

is a dumb way to live life, killing

34:50

other people and stopping

34:52

young people from reaching their potential. But

34:55

we can't get through it without

34:57

understanding where we've been and what's going on

35:00

here. So I appreciate

35:02

your show and what you're trying to do to

35:05

tell people what's going on here.

35:07

That's our goal.

35:08

Happy to your folks.

35:15

That's it for this season.

35:16

I'll be back soon, but in the meantime,

35:19

check out our archive of episodes

35:22

and here's to health, happiness,

35:25

and peace in twenty twenty

35:27

four. You

35:29

and Me Both is brought to you by

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35:34

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35:36

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help from Huma Abadeen, Oscar

35:41

Flores, Lindsay Hoffman, Sarah

35:44

Horowitz, Laura Olin, Lona

35:47

Valmorro, and Lily Weber.

35:50

Our engineer is Zach McNeice,

35:53

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35:55

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