0:00

You and Me Both is a production of

0:02

I Heart Radio. I'm

0:06

Hillary Clinton, and this is You and Me Both.

0:09

Today, I am speaking with Secretary

0:11

of State Tony B. Lincoln about the

0:14

incredible challenges and opportunities

0:16

that he is facing as our new Secretary

0:19

of State. It's

0:22

a thrill to see this

0:24

serious, thoughtful diplomat

0:27

assume this responsibility and

0:29

bring all of the experiences of a whole

0:31

lifetime, but especially his adult

0:33

working life, to the State Department

0:36

on behalf of our country. So Secretary,

0:38

blink and welcome. I

0:41

cannot express how pleased

0:43

I am to have this chance to talk

0:45

with you. Thank you. I could not be

0:47

happier to be able to spend some time with you. I've

0:49

had the good fortune to have spent a lot

0:51

of time in these halls with you in the

0:53

past, the White House, over many years,

0:56

but it's particularly fun to be connected via the

0:58

podcast. Oh I agree. So

1:00

let me ask you what of your first few

1:02

weeks as Secretary of State look

1:05

like and felt like to you? Well,

1:07

you know this better than anyone. It's a little bit like jumping

1:10

onto a treadmill that's already moving in ten miles an

1:12

hour, And partly it's just trying to

1:14

hold on. But you know, we've obviously

1:16

because of COVID, it's been a challenge,

1:18

and there's a little bit of frustration that comes

1:20

with that. I remember so well when

1:22

you became secretary, you were off almost

1:25

immediately on that airplane, visiting

1:28

with working with engaging

1:30

with our allies and partners and others around

1:33

the world. I wish I could do the same

1:35

thing, but we're grounded now. The good news is I've

1:37

been burning up the phone lines. I've been saying

1:40

that it's a good thing the departments on the family plan. Otherwise

1:42

I put bankrupted the budget. So

1:44

there's that. But of course, you know as

1:47

well as anyone better than anyone, it's just not not

1:49

the same thing. So I'm really looking forward to being able to get out there.

1:51

But what's been so gratifying is,

1:54

you know, because I've been doing this for for a while. I

1:56

started working for President Clinton,

2:00

uh and my first job was here at the State Department, working

2:02

in the front office of the European Affairs Bureau,

2:05

And so I've known the men and women of

2:07

the Department for a long time. And the

2:09

greatest pleasure I've had since I'm back is

2:11

just reconnecting with people that you

2:13

and I know so well. Well, I can

2:16

imagine what that's like for them as

2:18

well, Secretary, because

2:20

it's been a tough four years for

2:23

our Foreign service officers and

2:25

our civil service officials, and

2:28

it's important to do what you're doing, which

2:30

is spending time with them, talking

2:32

with them, listening to them. I read

2:34

where you said you felt confident

2:37

and humble, and I thought that was a really

2:39

good combination. As you embark on

2:42

this important job. You

2:44

run a department with tens

2:47

of thousands of Foreign Service

2:49

officers, as I say, civil servant

2:51

officials, and national employees

2:54

out around the world, and

2:57

you've got to figure out how you're going to make

2:59

all of that work, especially since

3:02

I think it's fair to say you're facing

3:04

a deficit, a deficit of trust and a

3:06

deficit of you know, leadership

3:08

that the prior administration

3:11

left you. So how are you trying to prioritize

3:14

the myriad of challenges and

3:17

opportunities that you're looking at. Well,

3:19

you know, you're exactly right that, in a sense, the first

3:21

challenge is actually the building the institution,

3:24

the men and women of the department, the Foreign Service officers,

3:26

the civil servants, and as you rightly point out,

3:28

what we call locally employed staff, the thousands,

3:31

the tens of thousands of extraordinary

3:33

men and women from the countries that are hosting us

3:35

who work with us and work force, and

3:38

so one of the things that's been so important

3:40

in this early going is to make it

3:42

very clear to all of our colleagues that

3:44

we're going to be relying and depending on them

3:47

their expertise, their experience, their

3:49

professionalism. And so I

3:51

think one of the things we're gonna show and people

3:54

will see in the weeks ahead as some of the senior

3:56

appointments are made, we're going to be

3:58

relying heavily on career

4:00

professionals. They bring so much to the

4:02

table, and it would be really to

4:05

operate with our hands tied behind our backs

4:07

if we didn't rely on that and use

4:09

that. The other piece, when it comes

4:12

to the institution itself, is, and

4:14

this is something I feel very strongly about,

4:17

we have to have a foreign service, we

4:19

have to have career professionals, We

4:21

have to have a state department that looks like the

4:23

country it represents, and that's

4:25

been a real deficiency for a long long

4:28

time. So I'm about to appoint

4:31

the very first Chief Diversity

4:33

and Inclusion Officer will report directly

4:35

of the Secretary of State. We're going to focus

4:37

on making sure we're recruiting effectively, we're

4:39

retaining people, and that there's actual

4:41

accountability for making progress. If

4:44

we get the human resource piece

4:46

of this right, then we're going to be so

4:48

much more effective around the world and representing

4:50

the country and in carrying out the president's foreign policy.

4:53

Well, starting with the work you've begun,

4:56

I was fascinated about how both

4:58

you and President Biden started

5:00

close to home, reached out to our

5:03

Canadian friends and our Mexican friends,

5:05

And that's so important because establishing

5:08

that strong relationship, especially during

5:10

a time of COVID and obviously what

5:12

we have going on our southern border,

5:15

makes a lot of sense. But you and

5:17

the President have both reached out to

5:19

Europe. How are our

5:21

friends and allies feeling with

5:23

the new administration. Can you give us any

5:26

early updates on that? Well, I

5:28

think it's it's fair to say that there's

5:31

been a very warm welcome for President Biden

5:34

and for all of us who've who

5:36

come along with him, and and you know, quite

5:39

honestly, a a thirst almost

5:42

palpable for American

5:44

engagement, and this is what I've heard

5:46

in conversation after conversation. That

5:48

doesn't mean we don't have differences. We want to have problems

5:50

with one of challenges, but I

5:52

think there's a recognition that in fact they're

5:55

better off when we're engaged, and

5:57

of course we're better off what we're thinking

5:59

about the world that we're facing in confronting.

6:01

I think two things really stand out, and this

6:04

is what animates the President's thinking and

6:06

as a result animates are farm policy. The

6:08

first is, you know, whether we like it

6:10

or not, the world tends not to organize itself.

6:13

And when we're engaged in leading,

6:16

we can help advance our own interests in values.

6:18

But when we're not, then one or two things

6:21

is likely to happen. Either some other country

6:23

is going to try to take our place, but probably

6:25

not in a way that advances the

6:27

interesting values of the American people, or maybe

6:29

just as bad no one does. And

6:32

then you've got a vacuum, and

6:34

it's usually filled by bad things before it's filled by

6:36

good things. So that premium

6:38

on American engagement is really

6:40

there. But the related, maybe flip

6:42

side of that is and again

6:44

I know this animated you so strongly

6:46

as Secretary. When we look at the things

6:49

that are really going to have an impact on our

6:51

fellow citizens lives, whether it's it's climate

6:53

change, whether it's this pandemic, whether

6:55

it's the spread of a lethal, really

6:57

dangerous weapon of mass destruction, we

7:00

know that not a single one of those challenges

7:02

can be effectively dealt with by any

7:04

one country acting one, even the United States.

7:07

And also that there really is no lall high enough

7:09

or wide enough to guard against those problems.

7:11

So the other premium we find is

7:14

on cooperation and finding

7:16

new ways to get countries to work with

7:18

us and to work with them, And that's kind of where

7:20

the State Department comes in. That's our job. The job

7:23

of diplomats is to try to build

7:25

that cooperation among countries to deal

7:27

with the challenges that are actually going

7:29

to have an impact on the lives of our fellow citizens.

7:32

Well, that is exactly the

7:34

definition of the job. And I

7:37

hope that during your service

7:40

that you, working with the President and others

7:42

in the administration, can make that case

7:44

more effectively, because it's

7:47

always a challenge to talk

7:49

to the American people about what it is diplomats

7:51

do, what development means,

7:54

why it makes a difference. People get the Pentagon,

7:56

they get the Defense Department, but

7:58

they're not quite sure about what the

8:00

other stuff is. And to that

8:03

point, I know that there are so

8:05

many crises and conflicts

8:08

that you are going to be facing,

8:10

from Afghanistan to Ethiopia,

8:13

Syria, Venezuela, and

8:15

then some long term challenges posed

8:18

by Russia and most particularly

8:20

China. And I was interested in

8:22

some of what you and the President have been

8:24

saying about Russia and how

8:27

you're going to try to really

8:29

send a clear message to Vladimir

8:32

Putin that you know, the

8:34

former president has gone, we're going to be,

8:36

you know, imposing costs and consequences

8:39

for behavior that is

8:42

really out of bounds. Well,

8:44

unfortunately, we've seen that in so many

8:46

different areas. And the bottom line is if

8:49

we're not standing up strongly when

8:51

our interests are being challenged or when our values

8:53

are being challenged, that creates a

8:55

feeling of impunity, and then

8:57

the bad conduct continues and gets worse.

9:00

But in any of these things, it's it's vitally

9:02

important that we do it with our partners

9:04

and allies. But just on Russia,

9:08

we are in the midst of reviewing

9:11

a series of egregious actions that they've

9:13

taken. Whether it is this solar winds

9:15

cyber attack that's been been written

9:17

about, whether it is what they've

9:19

done to one of Mr. Putin's leading political

9:22

opponents, Alessia Navalni, using

9:24

a chemical weapon to try to kill him,

9:26

whether it is these reports of

9:29

the Russians putting bounties on our troops

9:31

in Afghanistan, whether it's

9:33

something you are all too familiar with, interference

9:36

in our elections. We are looking

9:38

at all of this, and I can tell

9:40

you with some confidence that we will take the

9:42

appropriate actions as we see fit

9:45

to make very clear that this kind of conduct

9:47

is unacceptable for US, and we'll do it with our

9:49

allies and partners. At the same time,

9:51

you know, we have other important stakes,

9:54

including with Russia. One of those

9:56

is what we call in the business strategic stability,

9:59

making sure that with our still

10:01

significant arsenals, particularly of nuclear

10:03

weapons, that we don't do things that actually make

10:05

conflict and god forbid of nuclear exchange

10:08

more likely. And so one of the very first things is, you

10:10

know, the President Biden did is he extended

10:13

the soul remaining but very important agreement

10:15

between the United States and Russia the so

10:17

called news Start agreement that puts significant

10:20

limitations on our strategic nuclear

10:22

arsenals, and that's a very good thing for both countries, and

10:24

we'll look for opportunities to do more. But I

10:27

think we have to be able to walk and chew gum at the same time

10:29

stand up strongly against Russian

10:31

aggression. Ukraine continues to be a

10:33

huge problem given Russia's intervention

10:35

there, but also look for opportunities

10:38

if they present themselves to advance

10:40

our security on things like nuclear

10:42

weapons. We're

10:45

taking a quick break, stay with us. It

10:56

would also be really worth

10:58

trying to get China for the first time

11:01

into arms control agreements.

11:03

How is the administration looking

11:06

at China? Because again, we have to cooperate

11:08

where we can on climate

11:11

change, on global health, but

11:13

then there's all the rest that we have to

11:15

take some strong stands over. How are you

11:17

thinking about China, Secretary?

11:20

So as you know so well, it

11:22

is both one of the most complicated relationships

11:25

in the world and arguably one of the most, if

11:27

not the most consequential, and

11:29

I think it's important for people

11:31

to see that there are different aspects

11:33

to it. There's an adversarial aspect,

11:36

increasingly because China has been acting more

11:38

aggressively beyond its borders and unfortunately

11:41

more repressively within its borders.

11:43

There's certainly a competitive aspect

11:46

to it, but there's also a cooperative one

11:48

because on some big issues, including climate change,

11:50

we both have an interest in finding ways to work

11:53

together. But here's the common denominator.

11:55

Whether it's the adversarial piece, whether it's the competitive

11:57

piece, whether it's the cooper pies. We to

12:00

be approaching China from a position of strength. And

12:02

what I think that means is a few things. It

12:05

means with our partners and allies,

12:07

not without those alliances. Those

12:09

partnerships are a source of strength in

12:12

dealing with China. When we bring the collective weight

12:15

of our partnerships and alliances to bear, it's

12:17

a lot harder for China to ignore. Also,

12:19

as we as we were talking about just a few minutes ago,

12:22

being engaged and leaning in as

12:24

opposed to abdicating our responsibilities and

12:26

pulling out of all of these international organizations

12:28

that are actually shaping the rules

12:30

that we all have to live by. When we pull back,

12:33

China fills in. When we're engaged and

12:35

leading, that's a source of strength. Third

12:37

is a source of strength for us to actually stand up for

12:39

the values we believe in. So when we see

12:42

in chinging weaker as being

12:44

put into concentration camps, when we see

12:46

democracy being trampled in Hong Kong, it's

12:48

important that we stand up and point that out,

12:50

that we don't ignore it, and that we get others

12:52

to join us. And then, finally, and maybe

12:55

maybe most importantly, we have to be

12:57

investing in ourselves, in our own people,

12:59

in our own workers, in our own companies, in

13:01

our own competitiveness. Because if we

13:03

do that, and if we get

13:06

a reasonably fair and level playing field,

13:08

we're going to do just fine in the competition.

13:10

I have tremendous confidence. But if

13:13

we don't do it, that's going to allow China

13:15

to be acting from position strength and not the United States.

13:18

Oh and there's a last thing too that I think it is so important.

13:20

We also have to be strong and resilient

13:22

in terms of our own democracy, because

13:25

when we're questioning our own

13:27

institutions, when we're attacking

13:29

each other, that is the surest

13:31

way to undermine the strength that we need

13:33

to bring to this strategic competition

13:36

with China. So I hope, particularly

13:38

because this really is in many ways of bipartisan

13:41

challenge. I hope that we can come together

13:43

so we can do this smartly, effectively

13:46

and advance the interests of the country. Well,

13:48

it needs to be bipartisan,

13:50

even nonpartisan, because how

13:53

we structure our relationship

13:55

with China going forward will have such

13:57

serious implications. And

14:00

you have several times stressed the importance

14:03

of our alliances, working with

14:05

our partners, and the significance

14:07

of international agreements. And I was

14:10

really delighted to see that

14:12

the administration quickly went back

14:14

into the Paris Accord on climate

14:17

change, and I know you'll be working very

14:20

hard on that, and you're also working

14:22

to see if we can somehow reconstitute

14:25

the Iran Agreement that you know, put

14:28

a lid on Iran's efforts

14:30

to get a nuclear arsenal. And

14:32

just to go to that point you made about working

14:34

with others, you know, when I was in the Senate

14:37

for eight years, I voted for every

14:39

sanction against Iran that was

14:41

ever put up for a vote, and you were there working

14:44

with Senator Biden at that time, and

14:46

we did everything we could to try to

14:49

limit their options, to put pressure

14:51

on them, but without the world it

14:54

didn't matter. And so As Secretary,

14:56

I started working to put together international

14:59

sanction, which then the U N. Security

15:01

Council passed in June, and we

15:04

began negotiations which were then

15:06

completed in the second term of

15:08

President Obama. And

15:11

what people who pop up

15:13

and talk about international agreements

15:15

often really do an injustice

15:18

to our understanding, is to

15:20

act as though there's a perfect agreement

15:22

somewhere and all we have to do is, you know, pick up

15:24

a rock and find it. You know, negotiations

15:28

are difficult, they are

15:30

time consuming, and oftentimes

15:32

you don't get a PC, but you get

15:35

as much as you can. And with the Iran Agreement,

15:37

I think we got a long way towards

15:39

stopping Iran from getting a nuclear

15:42

weapon, all of which was then thrown

15:44

out the window by the Trump administration.

15:47

So do you look to see

15:49

how you're going to be able to bring

15:51

that alliance back together, which included

15:54

China and Russia by the way, UH

15:56

to try to prevent Iran from getting a

15:58

nuclear weapon resolutely. And

16:00

and to your point, I think it really is

16:03

important to understand that by

16:05

definition, negotiations are always going to be imperfect.

16:08

No one gets of what they want.

16:10

But as President Biden likes to say, don't

16:12

compare me to to the almighty compared to the alternative, and

16:15

that's really important. So the foundation

16:18

that you set first in the Senate but then

16:20

as a Secretary of State is what allowed

16:22

us to get the agreement that we reached,

16:25

and I feel very strongly that

16:27

that was the right thing to do, because,

16:30

as we both know, before the agreement,

16:32

Iran was speeding toward the day

16:34

when it would have the ability to produce

16:37

enough to all material for a nuclear weapon on very

16:39

short order time we reached

16:42

the agreement, it was getting down towards weeks, and

16:44

that would have given us a very very

16:46

hard choice to face either between allowing

16:49

that to happen and Iran having

16:51

a nuclear weapon or being on the threshold of having

16:53

one and thus feeling it connect with even

16:55

greater impunity, or maybe

16:58

having to take military action with all of the possible

17:00

unintended consequences that flow from that, to

17:03

deal with it. And so I think the best answer

17:05

that we came up with was the agreement that that

17:07

was reached that put the nuclear program in

17:09

a box and that cut off its pathways

17:12

to being able to produce the material it would

17:14

need for a weapon, and push that so

17:16

called breakout time past one year,

17:19

so that if they did start back in that direction, we've got plenty

17:21

of time to organize the world

17:23

and to do something about it. We had very strong

17:26

sanctions that were poised to snap

17:28

back if Iran violated the agreement,

17:30

and maybe most important, the most

17:32

intrusive monitoring an inspections

17:34

regime that we've ever had for any

17:37

arms control agreement, and our

17:39

own intelligence folks said that Iran was respecting

17:42

its commitments, even it's doing a lot of other things that

17:44

we don't like. So now after

17:47

we got out of the deal, Rand felt, well,

17:49

we can go ahead and no longer comply with

17:51

the obligations that we undertook, and it is

17:53

now getting back to that point where

17:56

it could produce the seal material for a weapon on

17:58

very short order. So I think we have an interest

18:00

in putting that back in a box and

18:03

then seeing if we can actually build something even

18:05

longer and stronger in terms of the duration

18:08

of the agreement, and also dealing

18:10

with some of the other actions that around takes

18:12

that we have a real problem with ballistic

18:15

missiles, the actions that takes in its neighborhood.

18:17

The good news is because we've

18:20

made a clear commitment that we're prepared

18:22

to re engage in diplomacy. The very

18:24

allies and partners we need and who are alienated

18:27

from us because we got out of the diplomacy

18:29

business are now back with us,

18:32

and that means they're also prepared

18:34

to join us in taking strong action

18:36

is necessary against some of the other things Around does

18:38

that that we don't like. So we'll

18:40

see, we're a long way from getting

18:42

back to where we were. We we don't know

18:44

what around will do or won't do, but

18:47

I think that it offers at least the possibility

18:50

of dealing with the nuclear

18:52

problem, uh and then hopefully dealing

18:54

with some of the other problems. When I look

18:56

around the world and I think about

18:59

everything on your plate and all

19:01

that you are going to be addressing

19:04

as Secretary of State, it's these

19:06

transnational, global problems

19:08

that you cannot imagine dealing

19:11

with unless you have the kind

19:13

of attitude you've just expressed, Mr Secretary.

19:16

You know, I worry a lot about

19:18

the flow of migration, which we know

19:21

is going to be exacerbated by climate

19:23

change, and we need to bring the

19:25

world together to do something we

19:27

we used to do, you know, decades ago

19:30

kind of look ahead somewhat, you know,

19:33

convene some international efforts

19:36

on several fronts. One, obviously,

19:39

what do we do about refugee flow? How

19:41

do we try to deal with the

19:43

problems in the host country. In our hemisphere,

19:46

it's primarily now Central America,

19:48

even more than Mexico, that is

19:51

unfortunately seeing people

19:53

flee for a better life moving north

19:55

toward our border. In Europe,

19:57

it's you know, Syria, it's North Africa.

20:00

Uh, it's Afghanistan. Can

20:02

you think about some of the big areas

20:04

that maybe on a longer time frame,

20:07

US Secretary, working with your counterparts

20:10

around the world, could begin a process

20:13

of trying to figure out what do we do about refugees,

20:16

What do we do about rebuilding

20:18

the w h O, getting better prepared

20:20

for the next pandemic? What do

20:23

we do to defend democracy? Those are

20:25

three big kind of cross cutting issues.

20:28

Yeah. Absolutely, And it really

20:30

does go back to what we started talking about, which

20:32

is both having a sense of humility and confidence

20:34

at the same time. I think they're flip sides at the same point.

20:37

Humility because we certainly don't get

20:39

everything right ourselves, and a lot of

20:41

these problems are also not in the first

20:43

instance, necessarily about us, even as they affect

20:45

us, and we can't just flip a switch and

20:47

expect to solve them. But but confidence,

20:50

because I still believe profoundly as I know you

20:52

did, that when the United States

20:54

is acting at its best, we still have a greater

20:56

ability than any country on Earth to mobilize others

20:59

in collective action, to bring other countries

21:01

together to try to solve problems. And

21:04

the big ones you just outlined are

21:06

actually having a real effect on the lives

21:08

of our fellow citizens, so we have an interest in in

21:10

doing something about them. The refugee situation,

21:13

we have more people on the move around the

21:15

planet than at any time since World War Two,

21:18

about seventy million who have been

21:20

felt compelled to leave their homes in

21:22

one place or another. That's the magnitude

21:25

of the problem, and by definition, no

21:27

one country can tackle it alone. To

21:30

your point, I think there's a lot that we can do

21:32

collectively. For example, First of all, we

21:34

want to try to do what we can with other

21:37

countries to prevent and if necessary,

21:39

end conflicts that are in many

21:41

places forcing people to flee.

21:44

Second, these countries that take them in remarkable

21:47

generosity. If you you mentioned Syrian refugees.

21:50

As you know, if you go to Turkey, to

21:52

Lebanon to Jordan's you see

21:55

populations that are in some cases a quarter

21:57

of the population is a Syrian refugee.

21:59

That puts huge strain on local

22:02

economies, on local resources.

22:04

So I think collectively we have an interest

22:06

in helping these countries the first refuge be

22:08

able to care for the refugees who they have, because

22:10

on average, once someone's refugee,

22:12

they tend to stay that way for well over a decade.

22:15

So we have to help these countries, and then

22:17

we have to put in place the support. The financing

22:19

in the United States has to do it's part as well. We

22:22

have long been a beacon for refugees

22:24

around the world. That's something that

22:26

I know the President is committed to restoring. But

22:29

we also have to be very mindful of our own

22:31

orders, our own security, and we're

22:33

very focused on that. Northern Triangle countries Guatemala,

22:36

Salvador, Honduras, as

22:38

you said, are increasingly the source

22:40

of forced migration here, and

22:43

what's the answer there. The main answer

22:45

is really trying to deal with some of the so called

22:47

root causes. You know, it's always

22:50

amazed me. Some people seem to think in

22:52

Washington, for example, that someone

22:54

gets up in the morning and says, Gee, wouldn't this

22:56

be a great day to leave everything I

22:58

know behind? To leave my language, my

23:00

culture, my friends, my family, my

23:03

city, put myself on the hands of traffickers,

23:06

you know, take this incredibly hazardous journey, and

23:08

then maybe go someplace where I don't know anyone

23:11

and maybe I'm not so wanted. It

23:13

takes something extraordinary to compel

23:16

people to feel that that's the only choice

23:18

they have. So if you can help

23:20

the countries in question deal with some

23:23

of those drivers, deal with the corruption,

23:25

deal with the crime uh and insecurity,

23:28

deal with the lack of opportunity, and give

23:30

people a reason to stay home and help build

23:32

the future of their own country, that ultimately

23:35

is how you get to the bottom this. But it takes

23:37

time. It takes sustained effort, and

23:39

that's something I know President Biden's committed to doing.

23:45

We'll be right back. Well,

23:56

I know, um, you're gonna have to get

23:58

onto the important business of state.

24:00

But something that people don't know about

24:03

you, although it's recently broken in

24:05

the press, is that you have your own

24:08

Spotify channel where

24:10

you post music you've recorded,

24:13

So I have to ask, are you gonna be able to keep

24:15

this going as Secretary of State and

24:17

and maybe jam with, you know, other

24:20

foreign ministers around the world, and even

24:22

have a public performance

24:24

on the eighth floor of the State Department, where

24:27

we do all of the entertaining. And it's

24:29

hard to think of anything that would do more damage

24:31

to our foreign policy or diplomacy

24:33

than me doing that, you know. Uh So

24:37

I wouldn't inflick that on my colleagues here

24:39

or or or anyone abroad. It's

24:41

been a lifelong passion something I'd taken immense

24:43

enjoyment out of, you know. If I had a chance

24:45

to actually do that as a career, I

24:48

would have done it. And it turned out there was only one missing

24:50

ingredient, which was talent. It

24:52

turns out also that the

24:55

only people who seem to like or

24:57

tolerate my music are

24:59

extremely young children who haven't yet to golop critical

25:01

factory. That's that's that's

25:04

my demographical I'll play for my kids,

25:06

but maybe not for anyone else. Well, keep

25:09

playing for your kids. I used to sing to my

25:11

daughter when she was a baby until she

25:13

learned to talk, and it was a memorable

25:16

tragic evening when I'm singing

25:18

away to her, rocking her before I

25:20

put her to bed, and she reaches up and puts

25:22

her little finger on my mouth and says, no

25:25

sing, Mommy, no sing. So keep

25:27

singing until you're told otherwise.

25:30

And finally, what's the best advice

25:32

you've gotten since you've

25:34

started this amazing important

25:36

job? You know, it's it's it's funny.

25:38

I was thinking back, and actually

25:41

it's really advice that I got when I first started

25:43

working for President Clinton and first

25:45

set foot actually in the White House

25:48

way back in And

25:51

that's the advice that stayed with me, and it still animates

25:53

what I think about this job, which is, make

25:56

sure you have reverence and

25:58

appreciation or the institution

26:01

that you're working in and helping the lead and

26:03

that extraordinary responsibility

26:06

opportunity of doing a job with the American

26:08

flag behind you every day. But also

26:10

never lose your sense of humor and

26:13

never lose your sense of where you actually fit

26:15

in to that larger scheme

26:17

and larger sleep of history. And as long as

26:19

you keep your eyes focused on both, you'll

26:22

do okay. Well, that really resonates

26:24

with me because the late Great

26:27

George Schultz, who served in the positions

26:29

that you hold and that I was honored to hold,

26:32

came to see me one day in the Ceremonial

26:35

office on the seventh floor, and

26:37

he brought with him a teddy bear, and

26:41

he said, you're gonna face a lot of serious

26:43

issues. You're gonna have a lot of problems.

26:45

It's not always going to go our way in

26:47

the United States, so just do

26:50

the best you can. But then remember,

26:53

and he punched the little paw of the teddy

26:55

bear, and the teddy bear started to sing,

26:58

don't worry, be happy.

27:02

That is, if

27:04

I can find another one, Tony, I'll send

27:07

it to you. I will look for I'm looking

27:09

for it right now. And I

27:11

can't resist because you mentioned George Schultz,

27:13

who I revered also. And

27:15

uh, you know. The other wonderful story about

27:18

Secretary Schultz was before one

27:20

of our new ambassadors was sent off to

27:22

post to represent the United States, he

27:25

is Secretary would call them into that office, and

27:27

you may remember he had a very large globe

27:30

and he would ask them to point to their country

27:33

on the globe. And so our new ambassador would

27:35

try to find South Africa or

27:38

or Poland, and he would gently

27:40

correct them and put their finger on

27:42

the United States. And maybe

27:45

that's the other most important piece of advice

27:47

that I've gotten, and it's from the President of the United

27:49

States, Joe Biden, which is ultimately

27:52

our job is to be here on behalf

27:54

of the American people and to make sure that everything

27:57

we're doing has them

27:59

in mind. Anything we're doing around the

28:01

world, is it going in some way, maybe even

28:03

some small way, going to make their life

28:05

a little bit better, a little bit safer, a little

28:08

bit more prosperous, a little bit more hopeful. And

28:11

if we keep that in mind, we'll have a

28:13

good north star and be pretty grounded in what we do.

28:15

Wow, that's a great way to end our conversation.

28:18

I am so delighted

28:20

to have this chance to talk with you, but I'm even

28:23

more thrilled that you are serving

28:25

in this capacity, Secretary B. Lincoln,

28:28

and I join every well

28:30

meaning American and wishing you the very

28:32

best as you tackle these problems on our

28:34

behalf. Thank you so much, Thank

28:37

you, madam, Secretary. Wonderful to be with you.

28:45

I really hope that people will

28:48

follow what the President, the

28:50

Vice President and Secretary B.

28:52

Lincoln are doing for our country because

28:55

we talk about it as though it's foreign policy.

28:57

But I think it's really important

29:00

to stress that a lot of

29:02

what happens in the world, like a pandemic,

29:04

like climate change, like refugees

29:07

fleeing their own countries,

29:09

has a direct impact on our

29:12

own country, our prosperity,

29:14

our security. So I

29:16

hope listeners will not think

29:19

of foreign policy as being foreign,

29:21

but being part of how we

29:24

act in the world and how we try

29:26

to make life better for Americans

29:29

right here at home. On

29:33

a slightly different note, I'm excited

29:35

to share some news about an upcoming project,

29:37

and it has to do with a secretary

29:40

of state. You know, I was a big fan

29:42

of the mystery writer Louise Penny before

29:44

she and I became good friends, and

29:47

now we are teaming up as co authors

29:49

to write a political thriller

29:52

about a secretary of state,

29:54

well a fictional secretary of state anyway,

29:57

but obviously it draws on

30:00

my experiences and the experiences

30:02

of others to tell a really

30:04

exciting story. The book

30:06

is called State of Terror, and it comes

30:08

out on October twelfth of this year,

30:11

and you can preorder it now. In

30:13

the meantime, you can listen to my

30:15

interview with Louise from season

30:17

one. The episode is called Books.

30:21

Thanks so much for joining us this week.

30:23

We'd love to hear from you with your thoughts

30:25

on season two, your ideas for future

30:28

episodes, or really anything else

30:30

is on your mind. Just send an email

30:32

to You and Me Both pod

30:35

at gmail dot com.

30:40

You and Me Both is brought to you by my Heart

30:42

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30:44

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30:47

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30:49

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30:54

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30:57

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31:04

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