0:00

You and Me Both is a production of

0:02

I Heart Radio. Do

0:05

I hope that in your spare time

0:07

you hung around in sweats? Yes?

0:09

I do? Well, Yeah

0:12

I am, I am okay, But yeah,

0:14

I thought it was so appropriate

0:17

and you made more of an effort than I've ever seen

0:19

any money necessarily make in those situations,

0:21

and I really appreciated it. I'm

0:24

Hillary Clinton, and this is You and

0:26

Me Both, where I get into some

0:29

of today's biggest questions with people

0:31

I admire. On today's episode,

0:33

we're talking about the American Dream.

0:36

What exactly do we mean when we

0:38

say that? And is it still

0:40

possible to achieve? You

0:42

know, I think the American dream is still

0:44

achievable, but I think we have our eyes

0:47

wide open about how hard it is

0:49

for so many people. There

0:51

are all kinds of obstacles that

0:54

have to be overcommon individual

0:56

lives. And I'm interested not only in that, but

0:58

also what do we need to do to change

1:00

our economy and our society and our

1:03

culture and our mindset to

1:05

make sure more people have a

1:07

chance to fulfill whatever they

1:09

think is their American Dream.

1:12

So I'm talking to three people today.

1:14

Lorella pray Lee is a former

1:17

dreamer. She's an advocate for immigrants

1:19

and low income Americans and

1:21

has an amazing story.

1:24

Raj Chetty is an economist

1:26

who studies opportunity. In

1:28

other words, how do we help more

1:31

people fulfill their dreams?

1:33

What needs to be done to make that happen?

1:36

But first, Tan France

1:43

Now you Know. Tan is the fashion

1:45

expert on Netflix's Queer Eye,

1:48

which was rebooted in Team

1:50

You Know. It's a really fun and heartwarming

1:53

show. In each episode, Tan

1:55

and the rest of the Fab five team

1:58

hit the road to spend time with

2:00

someone who is pursuing their dream or

2:03

just trying to get by, and to give them

2:05

a little boost. This show has

2:07

made Tan a household name. He's

2:10

one of the first openly gay South

2:13

Asian and Muslim men on TV

2:15

in the United States, and as

2:18

you'll hear, he is completely

2:20

charming. He lives in Salt Lake

2:22

City, Utah, with his husband Rob

2:25

and their two kids. He's author

2:27

of the memoir Naturally Tan,

2:30

I love that title. There were so

2:32

many reasons why I wanted to

2:34

talk to him about the American dream.

2:36

He recently became a US citizen,

2:39

and because he spends so much time

2:42

helping people live their own dreams, he

2:44

has some pretty good insight into what

2:46

it takes to, you know, have the American

2:48

dream in the twenty one century.

2:51

You know, let me start by congratulating

2:53

you, because I know you became

2:56

a US citizen this past June. I

2:58

should what did that feel like? You

3:01

know, I don't think I've

3:03

still quite possessed it. I've been

3:05

working on this for so long. I wanted

3:07

to be an American citizen pretty much

3:09

my whole life. Since I was a little boy

3:11

and I was sat there watching American TV. I

3:13

dreamt of this, and so the moment

3:16

that it happened, I was so overcome

3:19

with emotion that all I could do was

3:21

eat donuts because that was the most American thing

3:23

I could think of. I went to the donut shop down

3:25

the street and eight donuts, and that was

3:28

my version of being a true American. Well,

3:31

I think that's a very American response,

3:33

you know, to the emotion of the you

3:36

know, of the minute. Um, Where were you actually

3:39

sworn in in Salt Lake City, Utah,

3:41

which is where I live right now. Well, now, explain

3:43

how you went from New York to Salt Lake What was

3:45

that connection? Well? I never

3:47

heard of Utah, and quite honestly,

3:49

when I tell my friends and family in England, they

3:51

have no idea where it might be on the map. And

3:54

so I was living in New York. I

3:56

had a housemate who was from Salt Lake City, Utah,

3:59

and he suggested that I go and

4:01

visit. And I had no idea what it might

4:03

be like, what it might look like. It sounded

4:06

very country, and I

4:08

was surprised to see that they have a proper city, and

4:10

I fell in love with the city

4:13

pretty much immediately. Within an hour, I

4:15

decided I was going to make this my home.

4:17

Was there something about Salt Lake

4:20

that you felt connected

4:22

to because of your you

4:24

know, growing up in different cultures

4:26

and different countries. You grew up in

4:28

Britain, your parents or immigrants from

4:31

Pakistan, you were raised Muslim.

4:33

How did it come to be that going

4:36

to Salt Lake, well known as a

4:38

beautiful cosmopolitan city

4:41

but also the home of the

4:43

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter

4:45

day Saints, became the magnet

4:47

for you. I don't know how

4:49

honest you would

4:51

like me to be. If it spent to be light hospital, I'm

4:53

going to give you my deep, deep Okay, So my honest,

4:56

honest answer is this, so

4:59

you sin that I was a child of immigrants.

5:01

I am. My parents came from Pakistan

5:04

and Kashmir, India, respectively,

5:07

and I was raised in the UK. And I

5:09

don't know what experience you

5:11

have with the South Asian community in the UK,

5:14

but we are kind of seen

5:16

as second lass citizens in that you

5:18

wouldn't really take us home

5:20

to meet your parents. If you were to date us, it

5:23

wouldn't We would be the undesirable

5:25

dating community. And that was definitely the case

5:27

when I was a kid, and especially

5:29

after nine eleven and I was seven

5:32

team and nine eleven happened. And

5:34

so when I came to Utah,

5:36

the reason why I seven in the first hour is because

5:39

we went to a restaurant. I didn't know

5:41

what it was at the time, but it turned out to be Chili's.

5:43

And within an hour or so, I

5:46

had had so many people just smile

5:48

and ask where I was from, and somebody

5:51

here on me during that time, and I

5:54

had never experienced anything like it

5:56

where my call at the color

5:58

of my skin and my ethnicity seemed to be the

6:00

thing that made people want to get to

6:02

know me as opposed to make people not want

6:04

to talk to me. And that thought so special.

6:06

Oh, that's so interesting, and

6:09

that was like almost immediate immediate.

6:12

I really wanted to ask you.

6:14

You know, this is not our nation's brightest moment.

6:18

We are struggling with,

6:21

you know, so much turmoil and

6:23

so many challenges. What

6:25

do I feel like officially to become an American

6:28

at this pretty messy and divisive time?

6:30

You know? I my husband

6:32

asked me. My husband's name is Rob, and he

6:34

asked me the same question. He said, does it feel

6:37

weird after wanting this your whole

6:39

life to get to the point where

6:42

you are are now an American citizen? And we

6:44

actually do have a lot to be ashamed

6:46

of? And I say that as a true

6:48

patriot. I and I do class myself

6:50

as a patriot. Even though I'm an immigrant. I fought

6:53

my whole life to be able to live here. I

6:55

love this country, truly, I do, and

6:58

it's sad that I became and during

7:00

this time. However, I've always

7:03

been an incredibly optimistic person

7:05

my whole life. The thing that actually drives many

7:07

people crazy is that I always see

7:09

hope, even though sometimes I probably

7:12

isn't very much. However, even now

7:14

I see true hope, and so for me.

7:17

I was excited to be able to vote

7:19

this year. I thought, what better year

7:21

than to get my citizenship when I can finally

7:23

vote and encourage people to vote. And I've been encouraging

7:25

people to vote for quite some time, but it didn't

7:27

really mean enough when I wasn't able

7:30

to vote myself and to say, I mean it with you. And

7:33

so the way I see is, yes, it

7:35

was a very strange year to become a citizen. However,

7:38

I will forever remember it as the first

7:40

time I voted was a time when I desperately

7:42

wanted my vote to be here. Absolutely.

7:45

Well. You know, since um,

7:48

you've had the opportunity to criss

7:50

cross our country. You have been all

7:53

over America. You've met

7:55

Americans. Oh wow, So you

7:58

you really are talking with people

8:00

literally on the ground, and you're having very

8:03

personal conversations. I mean when you,

8:05

you know, hold up somebody's pajamas and say,

8:08

you know, you're not gonna have sex in

8:10

these pajamas, and the stuff that you tell them, Um,

8:13

you know, you're really in their lives

8:15

in a way that most of us never get a chance

8:18

to be. So how has

8:20

that affected your feelings

8:23

about you know, both the country

8:25

and you know your place in it.

8:27

It's been interesting going to places

8:30

I've never been before. Within this country. I had lived

8:32

here for ten years or nine

8:34

years at the time when I got the job, and

8:36

open to that point, i'd probably visited three

8:38

or four states. I felt like I knew that

8:41

you talking men too well enough. The New York I been

8:43

too well enough. But going across the

8:45

country has really opened my eyes, not

8:47

just with where I go to universities

8:50

across the country and do speaking engagements and speak

8:52

with college students who are at

8:54

that impressionable age and talk about

8:57

what they're going through. And it's

8:59

been interest in learning what has happened

9:02

with their lives since two thousand

9:04

eighteen. And it feels like

9:06

so many people have fed up, they feel stuck in what

9:08

they don't feel hid and that has been

9:11

the most common interaction

9:13

we've had with people, is that they don't feel seeing, they

9:15

don't feel loved enough. That

9:17

really resonates with me because

9:20

I think when you sort of strip

9:22

it all down, um,

9:24

loving and being loved is at the core

9:26

of the you know, human experience,

9:29

and you see that with

9:31

the people that you're working with and that you're

9:34

visiting with. Do you get the sense

9:36

that this divisiveness that we see

9:39

in the country can be reconciled and

9:41

healed with different attitudes,

9:43

not just from leaders, but from all of us.

9:46

I would like to believe. So I think that what

9:49

Netflix did super well. And if this

9:51

isn't just a sales pitch for Netflix, that

9:53

believe me. I just truly believe they

9:55

did this very well. They decided that they

9:57

were going to bring back where I

10:00

time when we knew

10:02

that things were going to become more divided

10:04

than they have been in a very long time, and

10:07

so Netflix saw our community

10:09

as the bridge. We get to speak

10:11

with people in a way that most people aren't afforded.

10:14

For example, I can speak with women without

10:16

them feeling bettened at all by me. I can speak with men

10:19

without them worrying that we might

10:21

be trying to get their women or trying to compete for

10:23

their job. We are a community that they're

10:25

not majorly threatened by, and they're willing

10:27

to open up to us, and we use

10:29

our skills, which are very personal,

10:31

as a vehicle to be able to have conversations.

10:34

And so we are in a very fudge

10:36

position where people will open up to

10:38

us. More so than they would most other people.

10:41

When I'm in somebody's closet and I'm seeing

10:43

them in their underwear, they are in their most vulnerable

10:46

state. I can ask them pretty much anything at that point and

10:48

they'll likely answer. I think that

10:50

that timing was crucial. Netflix

10:53

saw us as the bridge between the

10:56

Democrats and Republicans, quite honestly, and

10:58

we went in with the mission we wanted

11:01

to meet as many people who didn't

11:03

sing from our hymn sheet that the people

11:05

who had no interest ordinarily in

11:07

hearing outside of the story. But when you're

11:09

in your underwear, and you're probably more likely to tell

11:11

me what you think because I've got you trapped,

11:14

And that feels very special, and

11:16

we put a face to what

11:18

people may see as a threat. They don't

11:21

understand our community, and the

11:23

five of us represent many communities,

11:26

and so they get a personal interaction

11:30

with a person that they've probably never spoken to before.

11:32

And so I'm able to say to somebody, when

11:34

you vote for somebody like Trump,

11:37

you are voting against me,

11:40

You're voting against my people, you voting

11:42

against everything that we represent. So it's

11:44

not just a blind vote for a Republican.

11:46

And I think that's My biggest concern with

11:49

a lot of Americans who vote, they

11:51

will vote for whoever it is, as long as it's their

11:54

party. And I will never understand

11:56

that. I don't think most Brits vote that way.

11:58

If we don't like somebody, we're not going to vote

12:00

with them, regardless of whether there are patty or

12:02

not. And I wish that we had more of

12:04

that mentality here, and so I

12:06

feel the opportunity that we have with Queer I

12:09

is to have those conversations and say, I

12:11

am the person you're actually voting against.

12:13

Here we're taking a quick break.

12:16

Stay with us. When

12:18

you think about, you know, Queer I and

12:21

being part of it now, it's so

12:23

much more than a

12:25

makeover. It really is about

12:28

meeting people where they are, giving them a boost,

12:31

trying to give them some sense

12:33

of meaning and purpose and

12:35

even a financial boost. And I really

12:38

love what the Fab five does

12:41

for these folks that you meet,

12:43

but it also kind of makes me sad

12:46

that there are so many millions of people

12:48

who will never meet you. Maybe they'll

12:50

get you vicariously by watching

12:53

the program. So have you thought

12:55

about, you know, if you could waive the proverbial

12:58

magic wand what are a couple of things

13:00

that you think could be changed

13:03

that would help more people than you'll ever possibly

13:05

be able to get to. The one thing for me personally

13:08

that I try to communicate as much as possible

13:10

wherever ever I am, whether it be in person,

13:12

on the show or if I'm doing TV,

13:15

and I will always try and

13:17

put this one agenda. All

13:19

the things that we're offering are just as

13:21

I've mentioned, for a vehicle to have a conversation

13:23

and to really encourage a certain kind of self esteem

13:25

in a person and to encourage them to see themselves

13:28

as better than they believe they are.

13:31

And the main thing I want people to

13:33

take away is that we are incredibly

13:35

mean to ourselves when we look in the mirror. The

13:38

things that we think about ourselves are

13:40

seldom things that people are thinking of us.

13:42

And so to look in the mirror and remind

13:44

ourselves and the things that are actually wonderful about

13:46

us, the reason why we have friends and family

13:49

who love us. I want people

13:51

to realize that those things are

13:53

so much more important than the new wardrobe

13:55

I might give them, all the new sofa

13:57

that Bobby might give them. They're just the

14:00

things that make a good TV show

14:03

our show is reminding them that

14:05

they are so much more than they think they are, and

14:07

so we're just kind of holding up a merrit to them

14:09

and saying, look at you. I want

14:11

you to tell me, basically, in a nutshell,

14:14

what you think that everybody else sees

14:16

in you that you clearly don't. Why do

14:18

people love you? There's a reason why. But

14:21

you went through that whole process yourself.

14:23

I mean your memoir, naturally,

14:25

Tan, you know, talks about your

14:27

struggles and your conflicts and your

14:29

doubts, and you know, very personal

14:32

aspects of how you became who

14:34

you are today. I mean, we see you, We

14:37

see the confidence, the optimism,

14:39

the joy in your life. But it wasn't

14:42

always like that, was it. No. I think

14:44

if anybody ever suggests that they

14:46

have always been happy

14:48

and that there's never a time when they've suffered hardship,

14:50

I just wouldn't believe it. I

14:52

think to get to the point where you can be

14:55

as optimistic as I am, you have to have

14:57

seen some bad things and experienced

14:59

a lot. Then you you've overcome it, and

15:01

you've overcome it through great strength.

15:04

It does require great strength. There were times when

15:06

I struggled with my businesses. When I first

15:08

moved to America, I started my business as it was

15:10

the American dream that I was desperate

15:12

to fulfill, and I did. But it didn't

15:14

get to that point without a few

15:16

years of hallacious hard work and

15:19

as a child going through the racism

15:22

that we went through so regularly, and

15:24

just then that there was light of the tunnel. Even though

15:26

somebody may not have liked us for our skin color

15:28

or religion, my sexuality, there

15:30

was still so much more that I liked about

15:33

myself, even if those strangers

15:35

couldn't see it. And so that is the

15:37

message I desperately want to push forward on

15:39

the likes of CERA or any platform I have, is

15:41

that yes, people may throw stones, but the

15:44

one thing I say to everyone, I

15:46

refused to be the reason I'm unhappy. No

15:49

matter what has gone on in my life,

15:51

I refused to be the reason I'm unhappy. They can

15:53

say what they want. I have more control of my

15:55

feelings than they do, and so I

15:57

will find a way to make myself happy.

16:00

Man, and I just have to thank

16:02

you for being naturally

16:04

you and talking

16:06

with me today. I hope we get to meet in

16:09

person at some point whenever

16:11

the pandemic. We

16:13

can I encrupt you. Go right ahead, Dan,

16:17

I know that people, many

16:19

people had their opinions on what you are

16:21

during your campaign. I am not

16:24

just saying this because I've adored you for my

16:26

whole life. You looked wonderful.

16:29

Here's the thing. I will mention this also, it

16:31

didn't matter. It shouldn't matter.

16:34

Trump turned up looking like a joke

16:36

every time, and nobody seem to

16:38

care that much. But you clearly made an

16:41

effort. I love that you did so

16:43

many times the full modoco

16:45

look where you would go for a full blue or a full whatever.

16:48

But I thought you looked

16:50

regal almost. Do I

16:52

hope that in your spare time you

16:55

hung around in sweats? Yes, I do, but

16:59

going okay, but yeah, I

17:01

thought it was so appropriate

17:04

and you made more of an effort that I've ever seen

17:06

any money necessarily make in those situations.

17:08

And I really appreciated it. Thank

17:12

you, Thank you, I love you even more.

17:17

Tan France is the author of Naturally

17:20

Tan, a memoir. Season

17:23

six of Queer Eye, which will be filmed

17:25

in Austin, Texas, one of my favorite

17:27

American cities is on hold

17:30

due to the pandemic. But you can watch

17:32

the most recent season, as well as his

17:34

other show Next in Fashion

17:37

on Netflix. Now,

17:41

I'll be talking to Lorella pray

17:43

Lee. Lorella is a dreamer

17:45

who became a US citizen

17:48

and she's an incredible organizer.

17:50

I can speak from experience. I

17:52

was lucky enough to have her working

17:54

on my twenty sixteen presidential

17:57

campaign and she was everywhere.

18:00

No matter where I went, there

18:02

she was. She just has a

18:05

natural ability to draw

18:07

people to her to the causes

18:09

that she is advocating. She

18:11

was born in Peru. Her parents

18:14

brought her to the United States as

18:16

a very young child for medical

18:18

treatments, and you're going to hear about

18:20

that now. At just thirty

18:23

two years old, she's president of

18:25

Community Change, an organization

18:27

that empowers low income

18:29

Americans to fight for a

18:31

more just future for themselves,

18:34

their children, and generations to

18:36

come. As you're about to hear, Lurella

18:39

is a kind of person who makes you want to

18:42

get up and go out and change

18:44

the world. Hello,

18:47

Corella, how are you? Lorella?

18:50

I am so excited to talk

18:53

with you. It's been way too long. You

18:55

are always on the front lines of trying

18:58

to help people and trying to make change. Ange

19:00

and maybe you could just give our

19:03

listeners a little background of

19:05

you know, how you ended up in the United

19:07

States, and uh, you know

19:09

what your life was like here. Yeah.

19:12

I had a car accident when I was two and a half and

19:15

that resulted in the amputation of my right leg.

19:18

So for many years, we actually did a lot of

19:20

trips between Peru

19:22

and the States. And then my family

19:25

decided to move here when I was ten years old.

19:27

And I grew up in Connecticut, in New Melford,

19:29

Connecticut. Of all the places my parents could have

19:31

picked, that was their choice, you

19:34

know. And then I got here and I

19:36

was a young brown girl

19:39

with one leg um navigating

19:41

the world in a different language. And

19:44

I then found out I was undocumented.

19:47

You know, it didn't come until later. So

19:49

it's been a lot of ups and downs,

19:52

but I would say all of my downs have come

19:54

with a tremendous opportunity to learn.

19:57

Do you remember the moment when you

19:59

learned you were undocumented and

20:01

what that meant to you?

20:04

I think it happened around your desire

20:06

to apply for college, right, I

20:10

mean it was it was devastating.

20:13

I actually think I knew that I was

20:15

undocumented long before I

20:18

internalized what that meant. And

20:20

I had had many conversations with my mother where

20:23

I asked, you know, well, how come I can't

20:25

do this, or how come we can't do this? And

20:27

she would always say, oh, it's you know, you can't get a driver's

20:30

license because you can't drive because

20:32

of your leg I think really

20:35

it was her way of protecting me. And

20:37

when I found out I was undocumented, it

20:40

was devastating. For that moment,

20:42

and I would say for the next several years,

20:45

I carried a lot of shame. I was really

20:47

embarrassed and I was afraid. It

20:50

was almost as if I thought that I was

20:52

walking around and you

20:54

know, I carried a label that said undocumented

20:57

on my forehead. And you know,

20:59

I remember I was driving. Anytime I

21:01

drove and a police

21:03

car showed up behind me, I would

21:05

just my whole body, would

21:08

my whole this whole state and physiology

21:10

of my body would change. And

21:12

I would very nervously begin

21:15

to think about when is when is the earliest turn

21:17

that I could make where the police would not follow

21:19

me? And what about becoming a dreamer?

21:22

Talk about you know, the movement,

21:25

the dream act. You know, I walked

21:27

into a room at a field

21:30

planning meeting that United we Dream,

21:32

the largest immigrant youth let network where

21:34

I spent a good really was my first

21:36

political home in this country.

21:38

And a lot of young people were wearing these shirts

21:40

that said undocumented and unafraid, and

21:43

I was just looking at

21:45

them, like, I don't know what world you're

21:47

living in. I am very much

21:49

undocumented and I am very afraid. And

21:52

I learned there that organizing

21:54

is the art of the possible, and

21:57

to believe that, even though there

21:59

were many people who have been fighting on our behalf

22:01

and telling our stories, that if we

22:03

wanted to change the laws in this country,

22:06

if we wanted to fight for citizenship

22:08

for everyone, then we had to

22:11

step into our full power and

22:13

our full truth, reject the stories

22:15

that had been told about us, and begin

22:17

to paint a different narrative. I

22:19

know that you know, you got

22:21

married in you got

22:24

your green card, You were

22:26

then among the group sworn

22:29

in as American citizens by

22:31

President Obama in during

22:35

this time that you were undocumented,

22:37

and now, of course as an American citizen,

22:40

how have you thought of yourself as

22:42

an American and

22:44

how have you understood

22:46

the American dream? How has it how has it been

22:49

defined for you? And buy you. So

22:52

to me, the most powerful part

22:54

of the American dream is the

22:57

way that it challenges each one

22:59

of us to reshape and

23:01

reimagine what our country can be.

23:04

And so, you know, I think being American

23:07

is realizing that the

23:09

truth that this country holds

23:12

might be self evident, but they

23:14

are not self executing. How

23:17

do we look at America every day

23:19

and say I will not settle for that because

23:21

I know another world is possible. To

23:23

me, that is really the American dream.

23:26

And the fact that I get to do that as

23:28

someone who was not born here but

23:31

who is committed to making

23:33

all of these things real, that

23:35

maybe that is only possible in a place

23:38

like the United States. It's important

23:40

to keep the movement going, to keep

23:42

the organizing going, to make the

23:45

case even if people get discouraged

23:48

or disappointed, to persuade them not

23:50

to give up. So what are you seeing out

23:52

there? Oh man?

23:54

Um? We are living through

23:57

a really hard period right now,

24:00

nearly for intent Black

24:02

and Hispanic households right now

24:06

with children are struggling

24:08

to feed their families, and so

24:10

that is consuming people's minds

24:12

because parents are having to make very

24:14

hard choices about how to make

24:17

sure that they can stay in their apartment,

24:19

how to make sure that they can feed

24:21

their families, And to me,

24:23

all of these things are a policy choice.

24:26

Mass unemployment is a policy choice. Right

24:28

food and security is a policy choice.

24:30

Mass evictions is a policy choice.

24:33

And so I think that people

24:35

are living through and we are going to continue

24:37

to lift through this very hard period.

24:40

And I also feel like there's a tremendous amount

24:42

of hope. You have always

24:44

epitomized that to me, and

24:47

you shared a story in the past

24:50

about how when you lost

24:52

your leg in that accident when you were a two year

24:54

old, your parents told people not

24:56

to help you. My dad Yeah, um,

24:59

your dad said, you know no, she's

25:01

going to stand up on her own. She's going

25:03

to get around on her own. And

25:06

somehow in my head I see this analogy

25:09

because these days, staying strong

25:12

and telling people stay strong

25:14

and keep going and let's try to

25:16

make a big change is

25:19

quite an ask. That Trump administration

25:22

has done so much to insult

25:25

and undermine and demean

25:28

immigrants, separating kids at the border,

25:31

restricting DOCCA, demonizing

25:33

people list obviously goes on and

25:36

on. So how do you personally

25:39

find the strength to get

25:41

back up every day? Keep

25:43

going, keep fighting, and keep

25:46

using your extraordinary

25:49

voice and example to convince

25:51

others to do that with you. I

25:53

mean, part of me believes that some of it

25:55

was my father's training from when I was very

25:58

little, that the you you

26:00

can do this exercise every time

26:02

I fell, and I felt a lot when

26:04

I was learning how to walk with a prosthetic leg, when

26:06

I was moving around with crutches when I was little.

26:09

I remember, in particular, a moment

26:11

when we were at maybe

26:13

it was a carnival, and I fell

26:16

and one of my shoes also fell off,

26:19

and I was I was in a lot of pain, and all

26:21

of these people were rushing towards me, you

26:23

know, to help me up, and he just sort of he

26:25

had this motion, just sort of pushed people

26:27

away just by looking at them

26:30

and moving his hand. And

26:32

I was angry. I was angry that

26:34

he didn't help me up, And you

26:37

know, I think about it now and I'm just grateful,

26:40

you know, I think that it was lessons

26:42

learned for the future, and

26:44

those lessons learned we're about remembering

26:47

that in life, we are going to fall,

26:50

and we're going to get up, and we're going to fall again,

26:52

and you're going to get up again. Um now

26:54

we we can make the getting up

26:56

easier. And that's what gives me

26:58

hope. This believe that

27:01

there's the world as it should be, and then there was the world

27:03

as it is, and we as organizers,

27:06

we as people, if we vote, if

27:09

we make our voices heard, we

27:11

can play a role in closing that gap,

27:14

the gap that exists between the world as

27:16

it should be in the world as it is, and in

27:19

this time in particular, because of all

27:21

that the pandemic has exposed.

27:24

My dream is that we take the pain and

27:27

the fear and the anguish

27:29

that so many people are feeling right

27:31

now, particularly in black,

27:33

brown and immigrant communities, and that

27:36

we use that to create an America

27:38

where people feel seen and heard and

27:40

where everyone can thrive. And

27:43

if we believe that that is possible,

27:46

then we can fight to overturn

27:49

all these structural barriers that have been put

27:51

in place, and we could make it easier

27:54

for people to stand up after

27:56

they fall, because that is a part of life.

27:59

I love that, Lorella. I am

28:01

in your corner. I'm one of your biggest fans

28:03

and admirers, and uh, I

28:06

just can't wait to see what

28:08

you do next. Keep that energy,

28:11

keep that optimism, keep that sense

28:13

of hopefulness in the face of setbacks,

28:17

because it's contagious when people see

28:19

you do it and then they feel like

28:21

I'm going to do it too. So thank you, my friend,

28:23

Thank you for talking to me today. Thank

28:25

you for

28:29

more information on the organization

28:31

that Lorella leads, Community Change,

28:34

and the work they're doing on voter engagement,

28:37

immigrant rights, and affordable childcare.

28:39

Please visit community change dot

28:42

org. Tan

28:46

and Lorella each have their own American Dream

28:48

success stories, but at the same

28:50

time, lots of Americans are struggling

28:53

just to get by. There's food

28:55

insecurity, in other words, people don't

28:57

have enough food. The jobs that have

28:59

been law, many of them haven't come back

29:01

and may not come back. People

29:03

have burned through their savings trying to

29:05

keep themselves afloat. You know,

29:08

for many people, the American Dream

29:10

has never felt more out of reach.

29:13

That's why I wanted to talk with economists

29:16

Roger Chetty. You know, he

29:18

is the expert on this issue.

29:21

Last year, the Atlantic magazine

29:23

ran a profile of him called

29:26

the Economist who Could Fix the

29:28

American Dream. Well, that

29:30

caught my attention, So let's get right

29:33

to it. What

29:35

do we mean, what do you

29:37

mean when we talk about

29:40

the American dream? And what about

29:42

it needs fixing? Yeah,

29:44

So, one way I think about it just

29:47

from a personal perspective, I

29:49

was a kid who grew up in India until I was eight

29:51

years old, uh came to the US

29:53

at that point, and the

29:56

image many people have of America is

29:58

it's a place where, no matter what your background

30:00

is, if you work hard, you

30:02

have a shot of making it that there's kind

30:05

of no ceiling, right, And

30:07

to me, that's at least one key aspect of

30:09

the American dream. And so I

30:11

then think about how do you measure that in the

30:14

data? Are we living up to that aspiration?

30:16

Are we really a land of opportunity where

30:19

anyone can rise up? And one way people

30:21

have thought about measuring the concept

30:23

historically is that America

30:26

is a place where most kids

30:28

can expect to go on to have a higher standard

30:30

of living than their parents did. And

30:33

so we did a study a couple of years

30:35

ago where we tried to measure a

30:37

very simple statistic, what fraction of

30:40

kids go on to earn more

30:42

than their parents did when we

30:44

measure both kids incomes and their parents

30:46

incomes in their mid thirties around when

30:48

they're forty years old. And what we

30:50

found, I think was a really disturbing

30:53

and worrisome pattern, which is back

30:55

in the middle of the last century. If you look at kids

30:58

born, say in the nineteen forties or nineteen fifties,

31:01

of kids went on to earn more than their

31:04

parents did. But if you look at what's happened

31:06

over time, you see a dramatic

31:08

feeding of the American dream. We find that for

31:10

kids who are turning thirty today,

31:13

there's only a fifty fifty shot of

31:15

earning more than your parents did.

31:18

And so it's that sort of trend that

31:20

I think animates my interest

31:22

in figuring out how you can make America land

31:24

of opportunity once again. You

31:27

were part of a team that built something

31:29

called an Opportunity Atlas.

31:31

I just love that title, which

31:34

maps the level of opportunity

31:36

in our country literally down to

31:39

neighborhoods. And part

31:41

of what's so remarkable about

31:44

this Opportunity Atlas is

31:46

that you can see just a few

31:48

streets separate areas where

31:51

a kid is likely to grow up and

31:54

improve his or her economic

31:57

status from areas where a

31:59

kid isn't. What makes

32:02

some neighborhoods economically

32:05

mobile, creating more opportunity

32:08

and other neighborhoods less so, and

32:11

maybe explain how you and

32:13

your team were able to aggregate

32:16

the data that created this opportunity

32:18

ATLAS, Yeah, absolutely so.

32:21

A lot of what we do is using big

32:23

data, and so in this case, we used

32:25

anonymized information from

32:27

Census and Social Security and tax

32:29

data. Information the government has to

32:32

be essentially mapped the lives of

32:34

millions of kids, tracing

32:36

their outcomes in adulthood, their levels

32:39

of income, college attendance

32:41

rates, teenage birth rates, things like that,

32:43

back to the neighborhoods in which they grew up.

32:46

And specifically, what we were able to do analyzing

32:48

data for twenty million families is

32:51

compare kids who grew up in families

32:54

at the same income level, and what we

32:56

calculate is what are the odds

32:58

of rising up for the kids, What are the chances

33:01

they reached the middle class? What are the chances they

33:03

earn you know, more than eighty thousand

33:05

or hundred thousand dollars a year in adulthood? And

33:08

so, as you noted, you find

33:10

incredibly large differences across

33:12

nearby neighborhoods and that

33:15

from a social science perspective,

33:17

is first of all, useful to note in its own

33:20

right, because there's a great deal

33:22

of effort in the federal government to try to reduce

33:24

segregation and help families move

33:27

to higher opportunity areas, and

33:29

this kind of data can be really useful for supporting

33:31

that sort of work. But it can also be

33:33

useful to your question in understanding

33:36

what is it that makes opportunity

33:39

more available in some neighborhoods

33:41

relative to others. And we've looked at a variety of

33:43

different factors and basically

33:45

distill it to three or four things that

33:47

seem like systematic strong patterns.

33:50

So the first is that more

33:52

mixed income areas tend

33:54

to have higher levels of upward mobility.

33:57

Uh second major factor is

34:00

the availability of social capital.

34:02

So social capital is kind of

34:04

a complicated concept that is

34:07

a bit hard to define that the way I think about it

34:09

is just will someone else in your community

34:12

help you out even if you're not doing well.

34:14

So as an example, people often

34:17

talk about Salt Lake City with the Mormon Church

34:19

as an example of a place with a lot

34:21

of social capital, And in our data,

34:23

Salt Lake City looks like a place where low

34:26

income kids have great chances of

34:28

rising up. A third very important

34:30

factor, which is intuitive, is the quality

34:32

of public schools in an area. And

34:34

then a fourth factor, which i'll mention, illustrates.

34:37

I think the complexity of the issues is

34:39

there's a very strong correlation between

34:42

rates of upward mobility and measures

34:44

of family structure. So areas

34:46

with more two parent families tend

34:49

to have higher rates of upward mobility. But in

34:51

understanding this, it's very important to

34:53

note that it's not literally

34:56

about whether your own parents are

34:58

married or not. Even if your

35:00

own parents are married, kids

35:02

who grow up in areas with a larger share

35:04

of single parents tend to be less

35:06

likely to climb the income letter. And

35:09

so the reason I provide that additional

35:11

nuances it shows you that the

35:13

mechanism is not maybe the first thing lots

35:15

of people would think of that it your

35:17

own parents marital structure is the critical thing. It's

35:20

again something about the community that's getting

35:23

picked up. There. We'll be

35:25

right back. You know,

35:27

we're in the midst of this nationwide

35:30

pandemic health crisis. It's revealed

35:33

again more inequities and

35:35

our health care systems, the job

35:37

markets, and even education. What

35:40

do you think the long term effects

35:43

of COVID will be on social

35:45

mobility, especially on the

35:47

communities that you've been studying

35:50

that don't have a lot of opportunity

35:52

to spare. So in

35:54

our team, the way we've been thinking about COVID,

35:57

everyone I think is within how can they contribute

35:59

to this crisis? And so our thought

36:01

was, can we use the big data

36:03

approach again to measure the impacts

36:06

of COVID more rapidly, in a very

36:08

precise way. How is it affecting different people

36:10

and businesses in America? And in

36:12

this case, we found that the best approach

36:15

was not to turn the government data, but actually

36:17

to data from private companies which

36:20

have the best real time information

36:23

on what is happening in our economies. Let me give you an

36:25

example. If you want to see what is

36:27

happening to consumer spending in America,

36:30

get data from companies that process

36:32

credit and debit card transactions. So

36:35

you swipe your credit card, We collect

36:37

all of that information and anonymized way,

36:40

and three or four days later we have

36:42

a sense of what is happening to spending in America.

36:45

And that is incredibly valuable because

36:47

when you look at the sort of data you

36:49

can see the effects of various policy

36:52

changes. So, for instance, when the stimulus

36:54

checks went out literally on April

36:57

sixteen, relative to April fourteen,

37:00

you see a huge uptick in spending, especially

37:02

for low income folks who were really strapped for

37:05

cash. Right. And so with

37:07

that sort of real time data from private

37:09

companies of various types, we have been

37:11

studying what is happening to economic outcomes

37:14

and economic opportunity in the

37:16

COVID crisis, And so, you know, there are

37:18

lots of issues in the short run, how do we get Americans

37:20

back to work, and what is happening

37:22

to businesses and so forth. And I'm happy to talk

37:24

about that, but I want to tie this back to the

37:27

longer term kind of conversation we've been

37:29

having on economic opportunity,

37:31

and I want to share one piece

37:33

of data that to me is very alarming.

37:36

So we've been tracking data on an online

37:39

math learning platform called zern,

37:42

which about a million students in the US use

37:44

in their schools to do math lessons.

37:48

And we basically look at what happened

37:50

when schools shut down to progress

37:52

on this platform. And what we find is

37:55

that for kids in high income families when

37:57

schools went to remote instruction,

38:00

there was a temporary debt in the amount

38:02

of progress they were making, but they very quickly

38:04

rebounded back to the levels that they

38:06

were at when they were in school. For

38:08

kids in low income families, you see

38:10

a sixty percent drop off in

38:13

terms of the progress they're making in math, and

38:15

there's absolutely no recovery basically,

38:17

and that I think is incredibly alarming

38:20

for all of the reasons that we've been talking about earlier

38:23

in the conversation, which is these early

38:25

childhood formational years are incredibly

38:28

important, uh in determining

38:30

kids long term outcomes. And my

38:32

worry is the COVID crisis is bring

38:34

to the forefront many of the inequalities

38:37

that I think have been a little bit hidden to many

38:39

Americans at least, And in a

38:41

sense, we're going to be seeing the impacts

38:43

of this crisis if we don't respond appropriately,

38:47

not just in the coming months, but ten

38:49

twenty years from now, because of

38:51

these impacts. Well, I mean, one of the

38:54

findings that you have shown is

38:56

that you know, a really great

38:58

kindergarten teacher can underrate hundreds

39:00

of thousands of dollars

39:03

in future earnings for students.

39:05

But because of COVID, kids are not in

39:08

school, or if they are, it's

39:10

kind of a sporadic you know, we're

39:12

in, we're out. And it's

39:14

absolutely clear, as you pointed

39:17

out, how this is going to

39:19

have long term impacts on

39:22

low income kids. It will probably

39:25

creep up the income ladder somewhat more

39:27

than you might find at other times

39:30

because families aren't able to

39:32

get back to work, namely, mothers are

39:34

not able to get back to work, so the standard

39:36

of living drops, plus the education

39:39

is not proceeding the way it needs

39:41

to be. I agree with you

39:43

that we we have a lot of long

39:46

term problems we're going to have to unpack

39:48

and then try to address. But but let

39:50

me wrap up by asking you this.

39:53

I'm hoping for a change in

39:55

the November election where

39:57

we might actually get back to making

40:00

policy based on evidence and data

40:02

and facts and reason and lots

40:05

of uh, you know, challenges

40:07

to that in the current administration,

40:10

but we're going to have to really

40:12

have an organized effort to

40:14

move quickly. So, if

40:16

you were asked by an incoming

40:19

administration, Okay,

40:21

what are the three things, professor

40:23

Chetty that we need to do as

40:26

soon as we can to try

40:28

to make up for you

40:30

know, not just historic inequity,

40:33

but the incredibly damaging

40:36

impact of COVID. What would

40:38

be your three most important

40:40

policy suggestions. Yeah,

40:43

so we need to have a solid

40:45

based in the short run to be able to build

40:47

towards long term solutions. And so

40:50

the first set of policy efforts

40:52

that I would focus on our short

40:54

term, targeted supports to

40:56

the people and the places that have

40:58

been hard as to by this crisis

41:00

to help restore employment

41:03

at kind of a basic level. I

41:05

would then push towards

41:08

trying to address what I see as the structural

41:10

factors that are leading to the

41:12

inequalities that are becoming apparent in this

41:14

crisis. So, I think one response

41:17

to what we're seeing in terms of the educational inequity

41:20

that we just talked about in the COVID crisis is,

41:22

oh, that just happened in the context of COVID.

41:24

We need to fix that now, but then things

41:27

are going to be fine afterwards. I think that's the wrong

41:29

way to look at it. It's actually a

41:31

you're seeing at the surface a much

41:34

deeper problem that's been around for

41:36

many, many years, and I think what we should do

41:39

is use this as an opportunity

41:41

to do something that will be much more trans

41:43

transformational. So you know,

41:45

my one positive hope coming

41:47

out of the COVID crisis is in the same

41:50

way that the Great Depression, I

41:52

think was an incredible shock to the country,

41:55

it also led to I think a transformative

41:57

set of policies that paved the way for

42:00

an incredible amount of inclusive growth in America

42:02

over the next many decades. And

42:04

I think this is the moment to try to seize

42:06

the opportunity and make a similar

42:09

effort. And so what does that then involve?

42:11

Reducing segregation in

42:14

America? So that can be through affordable housing

42:16

policy, it can be through zoning

42:18

changes, the way we collect taxes, and so

42:20

forth. Their number of specifics, but

42:22

I think that is one major area to

42:24

focus on. Another major area to

42:26

focus on, given that opportunity seems to emerge

42:29

so locally, is place

42:31

based investments. So traditionally

42:33

when people talk about place based investments,

42:35

it's often things like tax credits for

42:37

businesses or things focused

42:40

on the labor market. But as

42:42

we've been discussing, the foundations

42:44

I think are really in the context

42:46

of childhood. And so when I think about

42:48

place based efforts, it's about how

42:50

do you provide in specific

42:53

communities, better schools, more

42:55

social capital, and importantly do

42:57

it in a way that doesn't just end up raising

43:00

house prices and creating gentrification

43:02

such that the people you were trying to help end

43:05

up having to move out. So I think that's a second

43:07

major area of focus. And then third,

43:10

uh the universities that provide important

43:13

pathways to opportunity for

43:15

many folks. There's

43:17

I think another crisis in America

43:19

playing out there where there are many

43:21

colleges that produce good outcomes

43:23

for kids but are inaccessible to

43:26

kids from lower income backgrounds, either because

43:28

they can't afford it, or because those colleges

43:30

for various reasons, are not admitting as

43:33

many kids from low income backgrounds.

43:35

And so I think a push towards essentially

43:38

making your contribution to social

43:40

mobility a key factor that

43:43

determines how a college is regarded,

43:45

perhaps even how much funding federal funding

43:48

college gets. I think is

43:50

is another important area for focus.

43:53

So, you know, just to provide some perspective

43:55

that those may seem like things that are not

43:57

directly about COVID, but

43:59

I think that longer term perspective

44:01

is incredibly important combined

44:03

with short run solutions. Well,

44:06

I agree completely and that longer

44:08

term perspective combined with the short

44:10

term solutions, is one of the ways I hope

44:13

that we can work together as

44:16

a nation to revitalize the American Dream.

44:19

And if we lose the

44:21

idea and the reality of the American

44:24

dream, we really do see

44:26

a continuing fraying of our

44:28

social fabric in ways that I know

44:31

distress you and certainly distress me.

44:33

So thank you, rog Please keep

44:35

up your extraordinary commitment

44:38

to helping us understand

44:41

how we can actually improve

44:43

opportunity in America for many,

44:45

many more Americans. Thank you so

44:47

much, my pleasure. You

44:50

can learn more about Roger's projects

44:52

and find lots of cool maps

44:54

and data visualization at

44:57

Opportunity Insights dot org.

45:01

Well that's it for this week's show. You

45:04

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Come back next week when we're going to

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46:19

Ferrara, the Unbelievable

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