0:00

I'm Rebecca LaVoy and this is You Can't

0:03

Make This Up. You

0:15

Can't Make This Up is the podcast where

0:17

we uncover the true stories behind your favorite

0:20

Netflix documentaries and films. On

0:22

today's episode, we take a closer look

0:24

at the Netflix documentary series, Unlocked,

0:27

A Jail Experiment. So

0:29

what I'm looking at doing, open

0:31

up all the doors, you'll

0:34

have the ability to come in and out of yourself, but

0:38

having a deputy step out as well

0:42

and let y'all be a community. Today

0:45

we're talking to executive producer Greg Henry

0:47

and Sheriff Eric Higgins. In

0:50

an effort to reduce problems with discipline

0:52

and recidivism, the sheriff in Pulaski County,

0:54

Arkansas rolled out a radical plan for

0:56

the county jail. Instead

0:58

of the standard 23-hour lockdown, he'd

1:00

open the doors in OnePod for

1:02

six weeks and let the detainees

1:05

run things without the presence of

1:07

guards. The goal? Empower

1:09

them to become self-sufficient and learn the

1:11

skills needed to succeed on the outside.

1:14

But the experiment isn't without risks for

1:16

both the inmates and the sheriff. The

1:19

Netflix series, Unlocked, A Jail Experiment,

1:21

takes us behind bars and into

1:23

a makeshift community of longtime prisoners

1:25

and a new generation of inmates

1:27

as they try to navigate their

1:29

new responsibilities. Can they

1:31

work together to improve behavior in the unit

1:33

and preserve their newfound privileges? Or

1:36

will the old ways of jailhouse culture

1:38

return and force the sheriff to shut

1:40

the experiment down? I think there's

1:42

consequences and repercussions for these actions that you take, you know

1:45

what I mean? The trash will take itself out, all

1:47

you gotta do is sit back and watch it, you know what I mean? But

1:49

it's still gonna ruin it for a lot of people, you know what I'm saying? And

1:59

I'm joined now by executive producer Greg Henry

2:01

and Pulaski County Sheriff Eric Higgins. Welcome to

2:03

You Can't Make This Up. Thank you

2:05

so much for having us today. Sheriff, true

2:07

story please. Where did this idea come

2:09

from to change up the protocols in

2:11

H-Unit and see what happens? You

2:14

know, when we look at the jail setting,

2:16

you know, one of the challenges you have

2:18

in a in a jail is

2:21

getting people to even come to work in a jail state.

2:24

The employees that want to work in there

2:27

and then you're dealing with safety

2:29

and responsibility in the jail. And

2:32

we recognize that the

2:34

detainees have a role in the

2:36

safety and how the jail functions. And

2:39

so we are looking at can we do things

2:41

differently? Can we empower

2:43

them? We had implemented

2:45

things in the past before the pandemic.

2:47

One of the things was a tier

2:50

system where based on their behavior, there

2:52

were some benefits in the unit. And

2:54

so the detainees were able to move

2:56

to an upper tier system based on

2:59

their behavior of compliance and just the

3:01

piece in the unit. So that's

3:03

kind of the backdrop of it is

3:05

improving the safety by rewarding

3:08

behavior, expecting detainees to step up

3:10

in their behavior. I think they'll

3:12

meet the expectations that we have

3:14

for them. And then looking

3:16

at how we create even safer environment for

3:18

our employees so that they will

3:21

be comfortable and want to work in

3:24

a detention center. Can you talk

3:26

about how this worked logistically? Because this was

3:28

an isolated space inside the facility, right? This

3:30

was you created like a new a new

3:32

space, like a pod, right? So we

3:34

had the pod, the

3:37

unit, we've got 18 units in

3:39

the facility and we designated one

3:41

of the units to create

3:44

this environment. And so

3:46

it was empty out and we

3:48

began moving people into the unit. Now

3:51

this is something that I've seen before

3:53

like in European, Scandinavian facilities that are

3:55

a little bit more like dormitories than

3:57

typical lockup. And you are the share

4:00

And it's clear that you're familiar with this kind

4:02

of model. You have this very forward way of

4:04

thinking. But I did see a

4:06

little bit of side-eye, so to speak, during

4:08

that initial staff meeting. And I'm curious, would

4:11

you say that everyone in the jail bought

4:13

into the program when you first proposed it

4:15

or not? The short

4:17

answer is no. They

4:21

do not buy into the idea.

4:23

So with definitely not being in a unit, what

4:25

are the big issues we're going to have to

4:27

look at? There

4:29

will be several pod bosses

4:32

if you're trying to develop that

4:34

type of community. Somebody

4:36

is going to take control. Somebody

4:39

is going to be stronger. And

4:41

if somebody is going to use whatever tactics they

4:43

feel like they need to take. Because

4:45

it's something different over here. Sometimes

4:48

I think here in the United States,

4:51

we feel like we have to force

4:53

people into compliance and

4:56

carry the big stick and indeed do what we

4:58

need them to do. And

5:00

I think we have to look at it differently.

5:02

So even in this facility,

5:05

there's resistance to that because

5:07

of the way we've always

5:09

done things. And so when you're

5:11

looking at doing something different, you

5:13

have that resistance. And when you're

5:15

looking at doors being unlocked and

5:18

the Chinese having a little bit

5:20

more freedom, people frown on

5:22

that. And the reality of it, you're still

5:24

in jail. You're still in a

5:26

unit and there's still security concerns that we have

5:28

to make sure that we are in compliance with.

5:31

But just the idea of giving

5:33

someone more freedom, that's a

5:35

natural resistance from people. And we

5:38

did have some employees and some staff

5:40

members that agree with it. But

5:43

it's always a challenge to try to go

5:45

in this direction. And then it's

5:47

one thing to do things without

5:50

everyone watching. It's another thing to

5:52

do things where our actions or our mistakes

5:54

may be exposed. I'm not

5:56

sure that everybody understands the difference between

5:58

a jail and a prison. The

6:00

stakes are a little bit different in a jail setting.

6:03

Can you just talk about the differences between a jail

6:05

and a prison and, you know, why this experiment is

6:07

maybe a little bit different in a jail than it

6:09

would be in a prison? You know, first

6:11

of all, in the prison setting, people

6:13

are convicted. Once you're convicted of a

6:15

crime, you go to prison. In

6:18

a jail setting, when law

6:20

enforcement has probable cause to make an

6:22

arrest and someone's arrested, they

6:25

are placed in a jail

6:28

and waiting to build a trial. So

6:31

over 80% of the people in our jail

6:33

are waiting to build a trial. So they're

6:36

innocent until proven guilty. They haven't gone to

6:38

trial and been convicted of a crime. And

6:41

then in the jail setting here in Blackstone County

6:43

Jail, if someone is sentenced, I can only

6:45

hold them if they're sentenced up to a year. Anything

6:48

over a year, they'll go to a state prison.

6:51

And so there's one of the differences between

6:53

the two settings. And in a

6:55

jail setting, people get bonded out. And

6:57

you know, you've got to be released. So

7:00

again, approximately 75%, 80%

7:02

of the people who are booked into a county

7:04

jail are released to the community. So

7:06

the majority of them are going back to the community

7:09

as opposed to when you go to prison, you

7:11

have a set sentence. You may parole out. You

7:13

may be sentenced to 20 years and parole out

7:15

in 10, but you're going to

7:17

be there for a set period of time.

7:21

So Greg, how did you get involved

7:23

in documenting this project? So

7:26

I spend most of my time

7:28

in jails and prisons across the country

7:30

because we do a lot of programming

7:33

in those settings. And we had had the

7:35

idea of trying to figure out how to

7:38

bring to a viewer a piece that they

7:41

would want to watch, but also would raise

7:43

this conversation about the way that we incarcerate

7:45

and detain people in America. And

7:48

so we were out really

7:52

looking at every county that we could around the country

7:54

to just try to see where places that people are

7:56

doing things differently. Sheriff Higgins is

7:58

very modest. getting into

8:00

his facility, he's got programs and ideas that

8:02

are kind of like pushing what it is

8:04

that we want to be doing to

8:07

our detainees. Because

8:09

as Sheriff Higgins pointed out, they

8:11

are people who are awaiting their

8:13

sentence. They're going to

8:15

spend this time in the facility. There are people

8:17

who have to oversee them. And

8:20

how do you create a better environment?

8:22

Because this is pretrial. This is pre-conviction.

8:25

And how do you create it so that the

8:27

folks don't come out worse than they were when

8:29

they entered? When I found Sheriff Higgins, which

8:32

now is three years

8:35

ago, maybe even

8:37

four years ago at this point, you

8:39

know, we just spent time talking about what he

8:41

was doing and sort of what we were thinking

8:43

about in terms of what

8:46

would we want to document and show to a viewer.

8:49

So I think in many ways, with these programs,

8:51

you kind of want to create a Trojan horse.

8:53

You want the viewer to come in because they're fascinated

8:55

by the world. And then when

8:57

they come in for the ride, they leave

8:59

thinking about these larger issues and thinking about

9:02

detention and incarceration in America and things like

9:04

that. And so this is a world that

9:07

we spend a lot of time in. And

9:09

we're constantly thinking about ways to find new

9:11

stories to tell that help

9:13

broaden the conversation and broaden the aperture of

9:16

what's going on in our country. And

9:18

I've said it to Sheriff Higgins multiple times, I

9:20

believe that detention and incarceration are the story of

9:23

America right now. We have a

9:25

huge system dedicated to it. There are

9:27

very few people who don't know somebody

9:29

that's been detained, been incarcerated, works in

9:32

the system, works in law enforcement. And

9:34

so the more that we engage in

9:36

this conversation, because this is our system, we fund these

9:38

systems and the more that we engage in this conversation,

9:40

I think the better we are as a country. So

9:43

that's a long answer as to

9:45

how did I get into this? I found

9:47

Sheriff Higgins, which was an incredible find. And

9:50

he found me, which is great. I

9:52

have so many questions about this project and

9:54

about why it's so important. And I'm so

9:57

glad that you brought that up. And, you

9:59

know, first. And one of the

10:01

things I was wondering is about your

10:03

work, Greg, because as a documentarian, you

10:06

know, to make a good story, you know, there has to

10:08

be a story arc, there has to be conflict. And I

10:11

know that the sheriff was hoping for ultimately

10:13

some sort of harmony in the

10:15

unit. So I'm wondering if you felt

10:18

in some way like, you

10:20

know, you want him to be successful, but

10:22

at the same time, you need material for

10:24

your documentary. So, you know, did you find

10:26

yourself like low key, like slightly across purposes

10:28

here, you know, like I'm looking for the

10:31

moments that the sheriff doesn't want to have happen.

10:35

He certainly knew that going into it. But

10:38

I think I think at the end of the day, we both

10:40

know the world pretty extensively. He far

10:43

more extensively than I do. You

10:45

know, those moments are going to happen.

10:48

This is the world of

10:51

jail and things do happen in

10:53

a detention setting. And

10:55

so going in, I think more for me, the

10:58

concern was, well, what are we going to learn?

11:01

Is there actually going to be growth? Is it worth

11:03

having done in the first place? Because

11:06

while we all are

11:08

obsessed with the sort of

11:10

confined world and the ingenuity of how

11:12

things get made or the breaking of

11:14

rules and all this, at

11:16

the end of the whole experiment, if

11:19

you haven't actually learned something, then it

11:21

was just a series of escalating incidents.

11:24

Escalating incidents happen all the time in jail, but that's not the

11:26

point and purpose for this. So in a

11:29

weird way, I sort of had a

11:31

strange confidence that I knew we would get the

11:33

quote unquote jail of it all. But

11:35

for me, the bigger question was, and then what? And

11:38

that was actually the truly remarkable thing about

11:40

watching this whole thing unfold in real time

11:42

was that there were and then what and

11:44

then and next. Can

11:47

you talk about the technical challenges of shooting inside

11:49

a jail pod? Because it's not like other documentaries,

11:51

right? So you can sit somebody in front of

11:53

a, you know, rent an Airbnb, say,

11:56

to do like a really quiet, nice interview or like

11:58

put them in front of a really great green. screen

12:00

and do I mean what was the setup

12:02

like? How did you overcome those technical challenges?

12:04

You're in a secure setting which

12:07

there's you know at the very base they

12:09

don't like tools to come in and out

12:12

of a facility because this can very easily

12:14

be fashioned into weapons and so

12:16

there's a lot of orchestration about the way that

12:18

our teams have to understand how to work. On

12:21

a high level we had almost 20 different

12:23

cameras installed we have about 19 different cameras

12:25

installed many of them were like high-tech penciled

12:28

zoom cameras that you could be 30 yards

12:30

away and still see what somebody was writing on a

12:32

table. We had 70 microphones and

12:36

so we really came in and they were

12:38

actually already doing some work in the facility

12:40

and so we were able to come in

12:42

and install all of this tech and then

12:44

we had a 24-7 control room outside that

12:46

was watching all the time

12:48

listening all the time and documenting all

12:50

the time and I think the biggest

12:52

thing for us is that in more

12:55

setup television you have

12:57

that convenience of calling cut of

12:59

going to your hotel for the day and shutting

13:01

everything down or going to sleep. This

13:04

is a working pod these individuals are

13:07

living there day in and day out

13:09

and so for us it's about how

13:11

can you almost step back and be

13:13

much more observational than you are in

13:16

other situations but then

13:18

always know what you're following and so you have

13:20

60 potential stories happening

13:22

at any time and so it's

13:25

just it's a massive effort with

13:27

you know I think we had probably 45 to 50 people

13:30

on the ground running through 24-7 constantly

13:32

touching base with each other during the

13:34

day we would have two crews that

13:36

would go into the unit and

13:38

so there's this kind of central tension between

13:40

the purely observational fixed-grade cameras as we call

13:42

them and then the more documentary on the

13:45

shoulder cameras. So why do

13:47

you think that they were so open

13:49

with your team? I'm sorry I found

13:52

myself wondering that because they

13:54

could see the cameras right and the things

13:56

that they were saying to the cameras really

13:58

surprised me with the open. the

14:00

clarity and then also the very confessional nature of

14:03

the stuff they were actually doing in the jail.

14:05

Like where did that openness come from? It's

14:08

a testament to our team and

14:10

the folks that were our shooters are

14:13

on the ground in the pod directors.

14:16

They've worked in a lot of detention

14:18

and correction settings and so they

14:20

coming in have a knowledge of the world so that

14:22

when they're talking to the guys they know that they're

14:25

not just you know, this isn't their first rodeo

14:27

essentially. Violence is never the key. I don't ever

14:29

want, we don't ever want to hurt nobody, touch

14:31

nobody. It's not really what this is about. Sometimes

14:36

that's what somebody needs. There's

14:38

a conversation that kicks up that's off-camera and

14:41

in a perfect world and we told

14:44

the sheriff this at the beginning in a perfect world what's

14:46

ultimately going to happen is that our crew

14:48

that interacts with his team every day that

14:50

interacts with the inmates every day, this just

14:52

becomes the world and so you

14:54

strip away the fact that

14:57

there's a call sheet and there's you know, there's

14:59

scenes work and everything and instead it's like it

15:01

just becomes a flow and so those

15:03

conversations that you were seeing on camera were extensions

15:05

of conversations that were going on off-camera. Our

15:08

folks got really invested in all of these detainees

15:10

and their lives but also the officers as well

15:12

that we would meet on the outside that would

15:15

facilitate our getting in and things like that and

15:17

so the honesty comes from

15:19

the way that we take this on

15:21

which is we're really trying to document

15:23

something and so the more that we

15:25

can take away the artifice, the

15:27

more honest it becomes. So

15:30

sheriff, I'm a journalist like I know

15:32

how journalism works and you know Greg's

15:34

team is documenting this process and

15:36

I'm assuming there were ground rules with

15:39

his team about violations

15:41

that they saw and what they could tell

15:43

you and what they wouldn't tell you. Could

15:45

you talk about that because there was clearly

15:48

a difference between things

15:50

that they saw and things that you

15:52

saw in real time. Right, you know, of

15:55

course, you know, we have our cameras and

15:57

we're viewing things and we're doing our normal

16:00

tail function, head counts, all those

16:02

things. So we're operating, this facility,

16:04

this unit is operating like

16:07

any other unit, with the

16:09

change of the deputy being on the outside

16:11

and the change of cameras being in there.

16:13

So we had long conversations about this, about

16:15

the most important thing is the safety. Safety

16:18

of the detainee safety, of the deputy

16:20

safety, of the crew that may be

16:22

in there. So that was paramount, that

16:24

if something was happening, to create an

16:27

unsafe environment that we were not aware

16:29

of, and that they happened to know

16:31

that we would be informed about those

16:33

things to ensure the safe

16:36

operation. So to even get there, Greg

16:39

and I spent a lot of time talking about

16:42

this and then way before

16:44

any filming start of bringing my staff

16:46

in and the few of his folks

16:48

in to talk about what are the

16:50

issues that could come up. This

16:53

is jail. You know certain things are

16:56

gonna happen in a jail setting. And

16:58

so you have to anticipate those. And so

17:00

I felt comfortable that if there

17:02

was a risk, because I

17:04

think looking at Greg's history, the

17:07

working in other facilities, our

17:09

concerns are no different than the concerns

17:11

in those other facilities. And so his

17:13

team had that experience and

17:16

understood that. So I felt comfortable that we can

17:18

address those issues as they came along. Sheriff,

17:21

I'm not sure how much of the documentary

17:23

you've seen at this point, but have you

17:25

had a reaction to some stuff that you've

17:27

seen maybe from Greg's point of view that

17:29

you didn't see through the security cameras from

17:31

your point of view? Yeah, I

17:33

wanna say, right now we had a good

17:36

conversation about this. Yeah, yeah. And

17:38

one of the things I wanted to be able to

17:40

do is view some of the footage as it was

17:42

available and was able to do that. And Greg

17:44

told me from the very beginning, you're probably gonna learn some

17:46

things you're not gonna like. And he was right. There's

17:51

things that we saw because of the

17:53

additional cameras that we didn't

17:55

expect to see. And we learned from

17:58

it. We learned... how

18:00

we do business, how we can improve the

18:02

way we do business of securing

18:05

the facility. So it

18:07

was beneficial to see some of those things that

18:09

he pointed out. I wanted to tell

18:11

him when he was telling me from the beginning that I

18:14

doubt that. We know what

18:16

we're doing. We got the count, we got the crew,

18:18

we're doing the jive, we're doing the shakedowns. He's

18:20

like, maybe hang the clock a little higher on

18:23

the wall would be one tip. So

18:28

he was absolutely right and I

18:31

do appreciate that. So it did benefit us

18:33

to see things from a different angle that

18:35

we maybe wouldn't have accessed. So

18:41

Greg, obviously, you know, for lack of a

18:43

better word, casting is an important consideration when

18:45

you're making a documentary and there are a

18:47

lot of men in this unit. How did you

18:49

go about deciding, you know, who

18:52

you would be following most for the six

18:54

weeks of this filming project? Sure.

18:57

The challenge with these shows is

18:59

that you can't really cast because

19:02

you are documenting a world that already exists. And

19:04

so once the sheriff had sort of designated the

19:06

unit, we went in to meet everybody. And at

19:08

the end of the day, the threshold is really

19:10

consent, you know, like honest explanation

19:13

of what's happening and then getting

19:15

consent for that. And then what

19:17

is always the surprising thing, particularly

19:19

for folks who haven't worked on

19:22

shows like this before that are

19:24

starting like a first time, somebody who's

19:26

maybe working under one of my field producers, is

19:29

that I think once you take away

19:31

the expectation that you get to control

19:33

and then see what

19:35

you have, you realize that

19:37

actually there's a lot of great story there.

19:40

And I think so. What is more happening is we know

19:42

what the parameters are. We know there's going to be

19:44

a day where the doors open. We know there was going

19:46

to be a day when the doors end. You

19:49

know, in the lead up, we were sort of the

19:51

sheriff was offering up folks who we were trying to

19:53

document an ordinary unit like in terms

19:55

of who was in there. And

19:58

so sheriff's team had people that we would go. out

20:00

and meet, there were another units and then there were folks that

20:02

were already in the unit and the folks that were in the

20:04

unit said, you know, actually, I don't want to be on camera,

20:06

I don't want to participate, fine. There's

20:09

plenty of other places that matched their

20:11

custody level and other people would

20:13

come in that were willing to participate.

20:16

And so, I think at the end

20:18

of the day, the eye that we were constantly looking towards

20:20

was if I stepped out of

20:22

this unit and walked into another unit, would

20:24

I see the same range and

20:26

roughly the same folks because at the end of

20:29

the day, it's actually for

20:31

us putting aside the mentality of

20:33

casting and instead getting your

20:35

mind much more into the documentary mindset which

20:37

is what's here, who's here, who

20:40

are they and how do they fit into this

20:42

timeline that's unfolding in front of us. So,

20:45

Sheriff, I want to talk about the consideration you gave

20:47

as to who would be a good fit for this

20:49

program and who wouldn't because Miller, for example, was

20:52

a recent transfer who didn't work out.

20:54

How did you give that consideration? What

20:56

we wanted to do is have a

20:58

unit that represented the facility because

21:00

I do have a reentry program. There's

21:02

a way to get into the reentry

21:05

program that everyone will

21:07

qualify for. But if

21:09

we're going to make a change in the facility, my

21:12

concern was can we do something that

21:14

we can replicate because if you're

21:17

cherry picking the people that go into the

21:19

unit, then you're going to get the results

21:21

that you expect. But

21:23

if you take a variety

21:25

of people coming in and our

21:27

process was we have a process

21:30

we go through through classification to determine

21:32

who can be and what type of

21:34

unit, who can be with another

21:36

person or who do you have to

21:38

keep separate, all those things. So we

21:41

went through that process of ensuring that

21:43

this facility represented that general population pot,

21:46

that you had older people, you had younger

21:48

people, you had people with various charges, some

21:51

serious charges, some lesser charges. You

21:53

had different affiliations that were

21:55

in that unit because

21:57

my concern was not to do an

22:00

experiment for the sake of an

22:02

experiment. My concern was

22:04

is this something I can do that

22:07

I can replicate into the next unit? Can

22:09

we empower people and

22:12

create a safer environment for the

22:14

detainees and the deputies but also

22:16

help within the realize their potential?

22:18

How they come into a community

22:20

and can they

22:23

make that community safer? By their actions, how

22:25

does it impact everyone else? And

22:27

I think in a jail setting where you have 40, 50

22:29

something people coming

22:31

into a they didn't they didn't make arrangements

22:33

to go to jail the same time and

22:35

be housed together like in college. They're

22:38

here and they have different personalities, different

22:40

stressors that they're dealing with. Can you

22:42

take those individuals and create

22:44

a better environment for them where they

22:46

take the ownership in that facility and

22:48

the peace in that facility and how

22:51

their community operates? And I

22:53

believe if you can do that in this

22:55

unit in a generic unit that represents this

22:57

facility then we can replicate

22:59

it throughout the facility and

23:01

again when 80% of these folks are coming

23:03

home then maybe what they

23:05

learn is their personal actions can

23:08

impact their community whether it's in

23:10

a jail or in the neighborhood and

23:12

that's what our goal was. So you

23:16

want a unit that represents the jail and

23:18

the jail population and I think you know

23:20

that was our goal. Greg

23:23

it probably didn't take you long to

23:25

figure out that Randy Randall, also known

23:27

as True Story, took the community aspect

23:29

of this pretty seriously right? Yeah.

23:31

Can you talk about you know the other

23:34

younger inmates however you know called him extra

23:36

thought he was a lot. Can you talk about

23:39

how central he was to this documentary and you

23:41

know basically the storyline that ended up playing out

23:43

and what we ended up seeing? Yeah yeah

23:45

I mean Randy we

23:48

had met very early on when we were starting to

23:50

understand who was in the unit and we knew yeah

23:52

we knew that he was

23:54

you know there's you know he was one

23:56

of the OGs and this

23:59

was you know a world that he

24:01

knew well. And I think that

24:03

for me, the most interesting thing was you

24:06

sort of see how all these folks fit

24:08

together and you think that Randy might

24:10

take step forward. You

24:12

already see that he's a worker, which is always a

24:14

position that somebody who wants to like have a little

24:17

more, for lack of a better term,

24:19

power in that unit is gonna take.

24:21

So you kind of knew, okay, this is Randy.

24:24

Obviously, Randy's also a good talker. You

24:27

know, Randy definitely liked the camera. I've

24:29

been in jail like nine times. I was

24:32

locked up for seven years, but it ain't been a

24:34

digit. I don't want to experiment no drugs

24:36

no more. Every in my life.

24:39

Screaming, mama, fuck that shit. Scoot

24:42

me, mama. You see

24:44

this, but I don't want to experiment no drugs no more,

24:47

ever. It's more when it starts to

24:49

happen, what you thought was gonna happen happens.

24:52

And I would say probably the

24:54

most heartburn moment for the sheriff and

24:56

for me for different reasons, but then

24:58

the most remarkable was that first 12

25:00

hours. So

25:03

doors unlock, everybody does

25:05

what you would expect them to do, which

25:07

is yell the lieutenant out of the unit,

25:09

jump around, act crazy.

25:12

And then I think after about 10

25:14

minutes, they realized that nobody was really like, nothing

25:18

was happening. That was like, great, you can keep running around.

25:21

By that evening, it was

25:24

Randall who gathered some of

25:26

the other folks and did a town hall. I

25:29

don't want to see that shit no more. Y'all don't want to go back behind that

25:31

23 in one shit. There

25:33

was a lot of folks doing that shit last night.

25:36

A lot of bullshit, a lot of folks who hear

25:38

somebody they don't care about that. All you motherfuckers care.

25:40

There's only freedom that we get. We

25:43

all are here responsible for shit. No

25:46

more game, man. But then right away,

25:48

you started to see the younger kids who

25:51

in a complicated way feel like they don't get power

25:53

and respect from these guys, but also they kind of don't

25:55

want to take it quite yet, start

25:57

to emerge. And so we knew.

26:00

that Randy was going to be a

26:02

central figure. I think the thing was

26:04

it's always then when it becomes real,

26:06

how is that going to play out? And at that point, you're

26:09

just documenting it forward. Because I think

26:11

the other thing is Randy actually takes himself out

26:13

of the equation and comes back

26:15

in. And those are things you can

26:17

never predict how that all rides. I

26:19

mean, for me, Tiny is one of

26:21

the most remarkable characters going through this

26:23

story because he is the guy

26:26

that you would write off, but he's a

26:28

thoughtful young man. It is

26:31

watching how the different personalities play off of each

26:33

other. But again, you're just you're playing catch

26:35

up, and you're trying to just see this

26:37

all unfold. So Sheriff, looking back,

26:39

how important is an inmate like Randy Randall

26:42

to the success of your program? He's very

26:44

important, you know, but then there's always

26:46

a challenge when you who wants to

26:48

be the pod boss and what's their

26:50

intent behind is it control to control

26:53

everyone or is it to improve the

26:55

environment? And I think his

26:57

ultimate goal was improve the environment and

27:00

keep the benefits that he was experiencing.

27:03

But he knows what jail is like, he knows

27:05

what it can be. So it's him, you know,

27:07

that was one of our concern is who would

27:09

step up who would be the person that

27:12

would try to take control and what would be

27:14

their their motives behind it. And so I think

27:16

it was key that that he did step up.

27:19

And I think he had some good

27:21

intentions in the environment. He had any

27:23

impact on the other the other

27:25

folks in the youth. So Greg, earlier you

27:27

mentioned Tiny, you know, he was struggling without a

27:30

connection to the outside world and the son he

27:32

hadn't seen. And when he was

27:34

able to make those free phone calls, he still

27:36

had trouble connecting with his son. And over the

27:38

course of the series, we do finally see him

27:40

make that connection. Can you talk about what it

27:43

was like to see him change after he made

27:45

that connection? Yeah, we all

27:47

get very involved. We're very present.

27:49

We're very involved. And it was

27:51

it was devastating for most of

27:53

us where there were those missed

27:55

connections because most of the

27:57

time, you know, the phone, the missed phone call, you

27:59

don't then get to see the aftermath where it's

28:01

walking back into the unit, walking back into the

28:04

cell, just trying to come to terms with

28:06

another misconnection. But then also trying to have

28:08

somebody who's trying not to show that this

28:10

is painful. But I know he's busy. I

28:12

know he's busy through these little times, you

28:14

know what I'm saying, little skeleton stuff, because

28:16

like I say, he playing sports. He's studying

28:18

a lot. I think

28:21

there were a lot of tears, like once there

28:23

was that family connect in

28:25

the visitation, and

28:28

there was a lot of excitement in the lead up to it. And

28:31

so our crew

28:33

is getting just as involved with the

28:35

day for day. And there's so much

28:37

conversation that night when shifts

28:39

change. It's like, did he get the call today?

28:42

What happened today? And then you follow

28:44

that into the evening. And so we

28:46

were kind of along for the ride that I think the

28:48

audience is going to see as well. And we were just

28:50

doing it in real time. One

28:53

person who really takes your program is Crooks.

28:56

He's in the process of getting clean

28:58

from drugs, and he's very open about

29:00

his struggles. And he talks about

29:03

how he knows how to do the right

29:05

thing, but can't, which I found to be

29:07

an incredibly moving confessional. I'm going to get out

29:09

of here next week, but like, and breaks me down to

29:11

even admit that I can't take care of myself because it

29:13

bothers me. I want to be able to take care of

29:15

other people. I want to be

29:17

like needed. I'm going to stay on a straight

29:19

path is by helping folks make me feel good.

29:22

Just like I thought drugs did. Can you talk

29:24

about what your program provided for him? I think

29:26

what it provided for him is support, being

29:29

in an environment where you can acknowledge

29:31

those things and acknowledge that that you

29:33

need help, that you can't do

29:36

it alone. And given the

29:38

opportunity to provide some wraparound services for

29:40

him to go to somewhere, go

29:43

to another unit or go where you can get the

29:45

help that you need. I'll tell you,

29:48

even in our reentry program, what makes it

29:50

work is the environment, the other detainees that

29:52

are struggling with some of the same things

29:54

and they're being honest about that and

29:56

giving information about where you can get help.

30:00

staff providing also information

30:02

and a support so that you can get

30:04

the help you need to Not

30:06

only why you mean a facility but more importantly when you

30:08

walk out The resources that

30:10

are available to you. I also think in

30:12

watching him We saw a voice that we

30:15

thought we might find which is this is

30:17

BS You know, we're

30:19

being messed with this is not for real and

30:22

then I think once you get

30:24

to realize this has changed And once he realizes this

30:26

has changed He also starts to

30:28

think about himself, you know, and that's Like

30:31

creating that white space to think

30:33

differently about the situation he was in I

30:36

think created that space for him to actually

30:38

really have Some pretty amazing realizations. Well

30:40

speaking of the voice, you know among

30:43

the others you follow Greg is John

30:45

McAllister AKA Eastside. Yeah, he

30:47

had this very funny story initially about this botched

30:49

attempt to burgle a pet store Any

30:52

chance you heard from him first and said this

30:54

is the guy who's gonna mess this whole experience

30:58

Yeah First

31:01

it was the best story I've ever heard Clinked

31:05

up Oh

31:12

Turn around so fast. I must have scared

31:14

the one clean this motherfucker bites my fucking

31:16

dick I got this fucking

31:18

big-ass snake and there's a fence a big-ass fence

31:21

I'm starting to climb the fucking fence and

31:24

this fucking snake starts tightening up on me. I'm

31:26

like Fall off the fence.

31:28

I couldn't even breathe McAllister

31:34

was Eastside was a

31:36

wild card for us because he was young And

31:39

we weren't sure how he was going to take

31:41

to it And yeah, I I fully expected that

31:43

he was going to mess it up do something

31:45

that would like Really cause a problem

31:47

that would get kicked out and then again

31:50

the most remarkable thing happens

31:52

Which is he starts to

31:54

think about the way he's doing his time and the

31:56

way he's doing things so

31:59

over the series you get to

32:01

see this kid who starts out being

32:04

everything you expected the tattoo man and

32:06

the acid dropping you know drug addict

32:08

who steals snakes but then

32:10

you realize actually he's still just a kid and

32:13

he's still dealing with some things and he comes to

32:15

some places that were really kind of remarkable for us

32:17

to watch him go to. So

32:20

Sheriff we do see you side

32:22

making tattoos making hooch masterminding this

32:24

caper to make a wick and

32:27

a lot of people to be clear

32:29

were responsible for this shakedown we see

32:31

in the program but Eastside ultimately stood

32:33

up and takes responsibility. It

32:35

did seem to me like the experiment

32:37

needed to fail in some ways

32:39

in order to prove it could

32:41

work. What do you think? You

32:44

know I think the experiment had to

32:46

show people doing what you expect them to

32:48

do in jail and you're looking for

32:50

that light bulb to come on. You

32:53

know I think one of the things that

32:55

happened through the experiment is you create the

32:57

value for the individuals that they realize that

32:59

they have value and they have a say

33:01

in their environment and you want

33:04

those things to happen. You know when you look at

33:06

him initially part of you want to say let's get

33:08

him out of there but that's

33:10

the nature of jail

33:13

and the hope is that you see some

33:15

revelations on their part that things can be

33:17

different. I don't have to always do the

33:19

same thing I've been doing and the expectation

33:22

for what happens in a jail setting. What

33:24

are you supposed to do when we go

33:26

to jail? There's an idea out there about

33:28

how the behavior in a jail and

33:31

people who come in here a lot of them

33:33

know that and they follow in

33:35

line with that and I think

33:37

what we show here is that

33:39

you can change the narrative. You

33:41

can change the expectation for behavior in

33:44

the unit and I think you saw

33:46

some of that even with transitions

33:49

of people coming into the unit they

33:51

conform to the environment and that's

33:54

what we're looking for. Sheriff I'm just

33:56

going to say you change the expectation I

33:58

think for the viewer. for

34:00

the behavior in a jail by letting

34:02

the experiment go on even after it

34:04

failed. So I just want to commend

34:07

you for that because you are a

34:09

huge part I think of why

34:11

it was successful. I'm just going to tell

34:13

you that interrupt the interview to say that

34:15

and I'm gonna ask you Greg do

34:18

you think that ultimately this

34:20

experiment is successful? I mean

34:22

what was your take? I

34:25

think that it played out in all

34:27

of the twists and turns and dramatic way

34:29

that we had hoped from the beginning which

34:32

was going into it I

34:34

don't think I ever told the sheriff

34:36

this but I pretty much expected that

34:38

we'd go a couple days and then

34:40

we'd be done. My hope was that

34:43

what would play out was what played

34:45

out which is when you give people

34:48

agency in a world without agency

34:50

and responsibility in equal measures they

34:53

will actually take that seriously over time

34:56

and still make mistakes and still make

34:58

turns. As far as successful you

35:01

know I tell this to every sheriff

35:03

department I get to work with which is I'm

35:05

not the arbiter of success. I

35:08

have a job that I want to do I have something

35:10

I want to document I have something I want to put

35:12

out. So the question for me is how's the audience going

35:14

to take it? How are the folks of Little Rock going

35:16

to take it? How's the sheriff's department going to take it?

35:18

How's the sheriff's office going to take it? How are the

35:20

inmates who participated in it going to take it? And so

35:23

success for me is measured not just

35:25

out of great we're done and

35:27

it's about to come out it's

35:29

also what are the what's the first week

35:31

like what are the six months like what

35:34

conversations get generated and so I'm

35:36

happy with what we've done to date and

35:39

I'm really proud of what we've done to date I

35:41

think it's pretty remarkable and we'll see where it goes.

35:47

Sheriff there are a lot of people who say that

35:49

jail isn't supposed to be comfortable it's supposed to be

35:52

purely punitive and I'm sure

35:54

you'll hear from people who are saying you're taking your

35:56

jail in the wrong direction what do you say to

35:58

those people? I say look at

36:00

what you're producing, look at

36:02

the results of jails in America, how

36:04

many people do we have in prison,

36:07

how many states, Arkansas, they want to

36:09

build more prisons, to house more people.

36:12

So I believe what we're doing doesn't work

36:14

and I think we have to do things

36:17

differently. You have to realize the value of

36:19

an individual, recognize people will make mistakes, people

36:21

will just outright do things that are wrong

36:23

and they have to be held accountable for

36:25

that. But I think we

36:27

can change their future by

36:29

investing in them and helping them see

36:31

their value. I think that's the

36:34

key thing and this when you look

36:36

at a jail setting, can

36:38

we change someone's directive, the projection of

36:40

where they're going? Can we change how

36:42

they feel about themselves and what they

36:45

think they can accomplish? And

36:47

I think that's the most important thing.

36:49

We're supposed to hold people accountable but

36:51

it's also about rehabilitation. Jail

36:54

is not supposed to be, we want

36:56

you to come in here, we're going to be managing, we're

36:58

going to punish you and so when you get out, you'll

37:01

do the same thing and just try not to get caught.

37:03

The idea is that you take accountability

37:06

for your actions and you change your

37:08

behavior and you step out wanting

37:10

to be a positive member of the

37:12

community, acknowledging your

37:14

past, acknowledging the mistakes you've made

37:17

and learn from that and become

37:19

a productive member of our community. That's what

37:21

jails and prisons are supposed to be about,

37:24

not just trying to

37:26

get punished people and what happens happens,

37:28

we'll just catch you again. And

37:30

I think that's what we're dealing with in jails

37:33

today is that the majority of them, we

37:35

just want to, we'll just catch you again. I don't

37:37

want you coming out and breaking

37:40

in my house. I want you to come

37:42

out and get a job and being a

37:44

productive member of our community and paying your

37:46

taxes and taking care of your financial responsibilities.

37:49

And I think we can teach that and not

37:51

everybody's going to succeed, not everybody's going to be

37:54

successful the first time around, somebody may have to visit

37:56

us a couple of times but I

37:59

think we can do things. things better. Well,

38:01

let's hope folks take your example and learn from

38:03

you, Sheriff. The series is

38:05

unlocked, a jail experiment, executive producer Greg Henry

38:07

and Pulaski County Sheriff Eric Higgins. Thank you

38:09

so much for joining me and you can't

38:11

make this up to talk about it. Thank

38:14

you. That's it for this

38:16

week's episode. Thanks again to executive

38:18

producer Greg Henry and Sheriff Eric

38:20

Higgins. For more of my

38:22

takes, check out my other podcast, Crime Writers

38:24

On. Each week on that show, we break

38:26

down the latest and true crime documentaries, TV

38:28

shows, podcasts and pop culture. If

38:31

you like You Can't Make This Up, please rate and review

38:33

this show and share it with your friends. Find

38:35

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38:37

listening right now. And make sure

38:39

to follow the show to stay tuned for all new episodes.

38:42

You Can't Make This Up is a production of

38:44

Netflix. I'm Rebecca LaVoy. Thanks so much for

38:46

listening. Thank

38:59

you.