0:00

The following episode contains difficult

0:02

subject matter. Please take care while

0:04

listening.

0:09

I'm Kathleen Goldhar. This

0:11

is Crime Story. Every week

0:13

a new crime with the storyteller who

0:16

knows it best.

0:25

In Chicago tonight a group of teenagers

0:28

is charged with beating a black boy to

0:30

a pulp and then boasting that they

0:32

kept their neighborhood white. Leonard Clark

0:34

is still in a coma. Police say he

0:36

was attacked by a group of white teenagers

0:39

who used racial epithets as they beat him unconscious.

0:45

On the first hot day of March 1997,

0:49

13-year-old Leonard Clark was out for a bike

0:51

ride with his friend when they were attacked

0:53

for being in the wrong neighborhood.

0:54

I learned that the lead attacker

0:57

was the son of

1:00

a powerful mob boss. A

1:03

mob boss with ties literally dating

1:05

back to Capone.

1:08

When Johans LeCure first heard

1:10

about this attack, he was a

1:12

23-year-old man from the south side of Chicago. And

1:15

the case pushed him to become a journalist and

1:17

to look deep into what happened to Leonard. He

1:20

ended up breaking stories on how the mob

1:22

and racial politics affected the investigation.

1:25

And now 25 years later, Johans

1:28

tells the entire story in one of my

1:30

favourite podcasts of all time, The

1:33

Powerful and Riveting You Didn't See

1:35

Nothing.

1:38

Johans LeCure, welcome

1:40

to Crime Story. It's a real pleasure to have you. It's

1:43

a pleasure to be here. This is exciting.

1:45

Thanks for having me. So take me

1:47

back to Chicago in 1997. What was going on in your life? I

1:52

was a part-time student at University

1:55

of Illinois at Chicago. I

1:58

was selling weed. in the neighborhood

2:01

and you know across the South Side I was

2:03

living with my father I was also

2:05

starting to write plays so I was figuring

2:08

it out I knew I didn't want

2:10

to be like a full-time drug dealer but that's

2:12

how I was feeding myself

2:15

and I was pursuing my own like creative interests

2:18

created a theater company with

2:21

my best friend Earl we were writing plays at

2:23

the time and I'm just kind of throwing

2:25

stuff at the wall trying to see what what lands

2:27

and what's comfortable

2:29

not exactly a typical 24 year old I

2:31

wasn't starting theater companies and writing

2:33

plays at 24 yeah a

2:36

lot of my friends weren't either looking

2:38

back my experience wasn't a typical one

2:41

so

2:41

let's jump into the story you told tell me

2:43

who is Leonard Clark Lenard

2:46

Clark in 97 he's 13 year old boy I

2:50

guess relatively nondescript he was from the

2:52

project still kind of young not yet

2:56

too attuned it seemed

2:58

to to like

3:00

street life right he was still an innocent

3:03

kid he's you know that innocent he hadn't

3:05

been lost yet and he

3:07

one day he and his little buddy just

3:10

wanted to go ride bikes and go play

3:13

and he and his friend went to play on their

3:15

bikes he catches a flat tire air in

3:18

his neighborhood cost a quarter

3:20

you know we're talking about people

3:23

at the bottom of

3:26

you know socio-economic

3:28

ladder and so

3:30

that quarter he could have found better

3:32

things to do with it knowing that air was free

3:35

one neighborhood over across the expressway

3:38

that neighborhood was Chicago

3:41

Sun downtown that was Bridgeport and

3:43

that's where he was attacked

3:45

tell me about Bridgeport that expressway

3:47

divide is more than

3:50

physical

3:51

yeah so you know well so one just to

3:53

give you some context is a history of

3:56

redlining that is you know has

3:58

just continued to

5:28

was

6:00

beaten into a coma and left the dead at 13.

6:05

And fortunately for his friend,

6:07

he got out of there with just,

6:10

I think they landed a couple blows. But

6:13

he was able to get away, and the crowd

6:15

focused on Lenard, who ran in another

6:17

direction. And

6:19

Lenard took the entire beating.

6:22

And how did the police get involved finally?

6:25

Well, the police were called. There

6:27

was a witness. There was a guy

6:30

named Jeff Gordon, who lived

6:32

in Bridgeport but wasn't from Bridgeport.

6:34

He had only been there a short time. So

6:36

he wasn't one of these

6:38

Bridgeport racists. He was a transplant.

6:41

He was from somewhere else and just found

6:43

a place to stay in that area. And thank

6:45

God for him, right? Because who knows

6:49

if and when the police get called, had

6:52

it not been for him, had it been up to just

6:54

regular average

6:56

Bridgeport residents.

6:58

But it was his experience that gave

7:00

you the name of the podcast, right? Can you tell me what

7:02

he hears?

7:04

He's called the police. They show up.

7:06

By this time, there's a huge crowd of

7:08

Bridgeport residents, right? And

7:11

there was a lot of excitement. Everybody comes out. The

7:13

police show up. And as the

7:16

police are asking Jeff Gordon, what happened? Men

7:19

from the rest of the crowd, Bridgeport residents,

7:22

are saying some Mexicans did it. And

7:25

so they're basically just trying to blame

7:28

someone else. I mean, it's kind of a

7:30

perfect example of dumb racism. We'll

7:32

blame Mexicans, you know what I mean? Because you

7:35

could have mistaken them for white folks. We'll blame

7:37

Mexicans for it. Obviously, they

7:39

won't blame black folks for it, because everybody

7:42

knows black folks ain't over there. If they

7:44

are, they end up like Lenard Clark often. This

7:47

Bridgeport man was giving this

7:49

false narrative of what happened.

7:52

Jeff Gordon stood up and

7:54

was vocal. I'm like, no, no, that's not what

7:56

happened. And then someone from the

7:58

crowd shouts, you.

7:59

didn't see nothing

8:01

in a threatening manner and a way to let

8:04

them know you you didn't see nothing shut

8:06

up everybody out there understood

8:08

that that was a threat that that was like

8:10

you know shut your mouth and so

8:13

and so yeah once it was time to come up with a title

8:15

it just made all the sense in the world you didn't see nothing

8:18

audio podcast every

8:20

you know maybe a quadruple on time

8:22

for just it fit it was great

8:24

thank you as a design I thought it was perfect

8:26

the

8:34

media though did really cover the

8:36

beating both locally

8:39

and nationally there was a lot of news

8:41

about it what was the public reaction

8:43

outrage and you know when it

8:46

first happened everybody was outraged

8:48

I mean because you know it was it was a

8:51

look as biased and racist as local

8:54

media may have been you know

8:56

that the beating of this little 13

8:59

year old boy in Bridgeport it

9:01

says so many things about Chicago and

9:04

you know I think most people

9:06

with any kind of humanity were

9:09

outraged by it so there was a lot

9:11

of a lot of protests the media jumped

9:14

on it swiftly and it

9:16

went to the National Heights

9:18

and President Clinton then President

9:21

Clinton was on his weekly address

9:23

talking about it it was a huge thing

9:26

just last week in Chicago a 13

9:28

year old boy riding his bike

9:30

home from a basketball game

9:33

was brutally attacked and almost

9:35

beaten to death

9:36

apparently for no other reason but the color

9:38

of his skin then

9:40

are and during these days when the

9:42

media first jumped on it those early days

9:44

he was still in the coma and people

9:47

were unsure if this kid would even make it

9:49

was this going to be a tale of a youngster murdered

9:52

in Bridgeport or just you

9:54

know damage for life

9:56

how did you respond

9:58

I responded by one

9:59

to

10:02

react with violence. When

10:05

I heard about it, I was outraged too. And

10:08

so I called my buddies.

10:10

I called my friends who I would call to fight

10:13

fire with fire if fire

10:15

had been set upon me or mine.

10:18

And so we went to Bridgeport.

10:20

We piled in my buddies' little

10:22

car and rolled over to Bridgeport

10:24

with some bats and some pipes or whatever. And

10:27

we reacted really emotionally. We forgot

10:30

where we were going or what we were up against.

10:32

Because we got there and were reminded

10:35

quickly, like, wait a minute. First

10:37

of all, we stand out like sore thumbs at Bridgeport.

10:40

And we sorely outnumbered. The

10:43

five or six of us that fit in that car was,

10:45

we got chased out of there

10:47

pretty quickly.

10:49

And your dad, though,

10:50

told you to do something differently, right? Your dad

10:53

plays a pretty important role at this point.

10:55

Yeah, he does. Like I told you, I

10:57

started writing plays. I had done some writing

11:00

for other smaller publications and smaller

11:03

stories here and there. And I had

11:05

been writing since I was a kid in some shape,

11:07

form, or fashion. And so that's when he

11:09

said, look, write, write about it. And

11:12

he just happened to have come

11:14

across an

11:17

ad for a freelance journalist

11:19

for a local newspaper that

11:21

also came from out of the projects called the South Street

11:24

Journal. And they

11:26

were paying $25 an article. And

11:29

I would have done it for free. And so, yeah, I

11:31

found I found a South Street Journal. I met Ron Carter,

11:33

the editor and publisher over there, who

11:35

was just a phenomenal, who is

11:37

just a phenomenal guy in

11:40

the community and on the South Side. And

11:42

he was able to like immediately

11:45

put me in tune with with

11:47

Lenard's mother in the evening. And so I was I

11:50

was thrown right into into

11:52

that world

11:55

and then began investigating and writing.

11:57

I just want to stop and tell you one of my favorite

11:59

parts of the. podcast was when you debate the color of

12:01

the car. I didn't have a driver's license at the

12:03

time, so Earl,

12:05

my playwriting partner, he drove me.

12:07

He had this magenta mercury tracer.

12:10

We used to call her Tracy. Yeah, we

12:12

pulled up at that spot. I'll never forget it.

12:14

My red tracer. It was future. We

12:17

pulled up on that spot, and I'm like, they

12:19

looking for you? That was such a

12:21

lovely moment. Yeah,

12:24

Earl didn't catch that at

12:26

first listening. Some of his buddies called

12:28

him like, what's up with the future

12:30

car? What are you talking about? He didn't even

12:33

catch that, so we laughed about it.

12:35

I love it.

12:36

Great. That was part of what I loved about the

12:38

podcast is just every once in a while, your friendship

12:41

and humor came through, and sometimes it's

12:43

the nicest moments when everybody sort of needs

12:45

a little bit of a break because you're just so

12:48

immersed in this. Like you said, it's a 13-year-old

12:49

boy, and you're feeling so sick, and

12:51

then. Well, no, I appreciate

12:53

you saying it. A lot of people, we've

12:56

gotten feedback from folks who

12:58

are like, is it okay? Did

13:00

I laugh so much? And it absolutely

13:03

is.

13:04

Life is so tough, and

13:06

it's so hard, and it has been in

13:08

so many ways

13:10

that

13:12

if you don't find some

13:14

humor in something, it'll

13:16

break you down. And so, yeah,

13:19

we have to find times

13:21

of smile. It makes me think, I was having this conversation

13:24

recently with a good friend

13:27

about just that, about that dynamic

13:30

of smiling and laughing in

13:32

the midst of intense pain and oppression,

13:35

and I was telling her how even when I was in prison, we laughed.

13:37

We laughed hard. But

13:39

we were in prison and wanted to get out of there

13:42

like our lives depended on it, you know what I

13:45

mean? And it makes me think of the narrative

13:47

that white folks started to come with

13:49

about happy slaves,

13:52

because I'm sure,

13:53

when I think about my experience in prison, I think

13:56

about my experience on the streets of Chicago.

13:58

When I think about the experiences in Chicago, I go to

14:00

my buddies who were born and raised in the projects

14:03

and have had it the worst. When I think about

14:05

the laughter and the good times that

14:07

people still had and took from that,

14:11

it makes me think of the fact that, yeah, during slavery,

14:14

people laughed and joked. They had to.

14:17

They couldn't have lived as long as they did. It's

14:20

just something that if people can't understand it, they

14:22

just haven't been in situations that are perilous.

14:25

But when that's then distorted, like,

14:28

OK, they're laughing and they're smiling so

14:30

they like it, to not be

14:34

able to look at life

14:36

with enough nuance and critical

14:39

thought to understand how both

14:41

can exist at the same time. And

14:44

the laughter and smiles never

14:46

indicates a pleasure

14:49

or an embrace

14:51

of the situation. It's just dealing

14:53

with reality and finding

14:56

a way to live through it. It's just humanity.

15:11

Tell me what you learned about who his attackers

15:14

were. I learned that

15:16

the lead attacker, the

15:19

young man who was driving the car

15:21

and

15:22

initiated the attack and first

15:24

spotted Leonard and his friend was

15:27

the son of a powerful

15:30

mob boss. Mob

15:32

boss with ties literally dating

15:34

back to Capone. And that was

15:36

just that was a huge discovery for me. Capone

15:39

was like this mythical level

15:42

of Chicago mafia.

15:46

I mean, it was.

15:47

Yeah, that was that was huge for

15:50

me. Like, that made me realize that we

15:52

know I'm investigating something pretty

15:55

serious here. Right. And

15:59

and then I, you know, came. to find that the

16:01

rest of the attackers were

16:05

his buddies and

16:08

one or two of them were likely to

16:11

some degree also

16:14

tied to

16:16

the mob and the same

16:18

mafia that this kid's father

16:21

was a boss of. I also

16:23

learned

16:24

that there were

16:27

probably at least six attackers

16:29

instead of the three that were

16:32

accused and charged. But

16:34

yeah the biggest find was

16:36

this young man's deep tie to

16:38

the mob through his father.

16:41

And how did that affect the

16:43

police investigation, the whole official

16:45

investigation into what happened?

16:47

I was told that the

16:50

lawyers for these

16:52

young men were able to

16:54

walk right into the police station and

16:57

kind of take over the police station in a way

17:00

that never happened, in

17:02

a way that no one was used

17:04

to seeing lawyers walk

17:06

in and take command of a police station before.

17:09

So which indicated

17:11

a really strong connection between

17:16

this family, these families

17:19

and that police station

17:22

which was in Bridgeport. So we're talking

17:24

about a neighborhood where

17:26

a lot of these young men wind

17:29

up becoming cops.

17:30

And then what did that mean? How did that manifest

17:33

in witness statements and people coming

17:35

forward and getting the case actually

17:37

to the point where you can hand it off to a prosecutor

17:40

to do something?

17:42

Right. So you got three Bridgeport,

17:45

three young Bridgeport men in the

17:48

car who roll up and spot Lenard Clark and his

17:50

buddy. The lead attacker Frankie

17:52

Caruso Jr. from the Caruso

17:55

family, he spots Lenard and Cleavon

17:58

and says, you know, let's beat them up. Apparently

18:01

the two in the car didn't want

18:03

to do it. He calls them pussies, he jumps

18:05

out, he hits the street. And

18:08

a group of, you know, this is a neighborhood,

18:11

and a group of other young men who

18:13

they all knew see him running after

18:15

these two black kids, you know, jump

18:17

in the chase with him and beat the boy

18:20

almost near lifeless. So

18:23

when the two young men who were in the car

18:26

who didn't jump out were interrogated,

18:28

they spilled a bean. They told everything they knew. And

18:31

they incriminated

18:33

the hell out of Frankie Caruso, Jr. And

18:37

so initially, there

18:39

was a case here. There's

18:41

a huge case here. You got two witnesses.

18:44

Obviously, they didn't have time to put a story together.

18:47

But their story synced up about how this guy

18:49

jumps out his truck and beats

18:51

Lenard Clark damn near to death. And

18:55

I think that it was shortly

18:57

after that that their families

19:00

got involved and started

19:02

kind of to take control. And

19:05

they started to move a lot more

19:07

like mobsters.

19:09

And so you would have witnesses,

19:11

right, that would go missing, witnesses

19:14

that changed what they said they saw.

19:16

And then you have one who, Michael

19:18

Cutler, who?

19:20

Yeah, he was murdered. So

19:22

right, that was, that's when stuff starts really

19:24

looking like, okay, the mob is involved here. I

19:26

mean, every day Chicagoans start

19:29

to realize, black and white, start to see what's

19:31

going on. Once it's understood the family,

19:35

what's going on here, who these people are, you

19:38

got one witness who can't be found.

19:41

You got another witness who

19:43

has changed his entire story. And

19:45

you got a third witness who's murdered, right?

19:49

And he's murdered in really strange circumstances.

19:52

He's murdered on Chicago's West Side,

19:55

which is pretty much all black.

19:57

And so, you know, this, this, this.

19:59

white kid who turned out actually

20:02

to be mixed,

20:03

which was a huge discovery for

20:05

us, but this kid who we didn't know

20:07

was mixed at the time, right? So we're looking

20:10

at it as a white kid from Bridgeport who

20:12

ends up murdered on the west

20:14

side of Chicago visiting a girl,

20:16

just made everybody scratch their heads. It

20:18

was called a robbery by the police, but

20:21

the only thing that was taken was a class ring,

20:24

which a lot of folks who've

20:26

known mob activity

20:28

and have studied it

20:30

say indicates a hit.

20:32

You know, you take the ring to show you got them.

20:35

It just didn't make sense, but that's how

20:37

the police handled the case, as if it was just a robbery,

20:40

dismissed any notion that

20:42

it could have been related to this huge case

20:45

of the summer

20:47

that had gone national. You know,

20:49

the judge

20:50

suspected it was a hit. The judge in the case

20:53

suspected it was a hit, you know, and all

20:56

damn near every black person reading

20:58

this story was confident

21:01

that it was a hit. And most white folks expressed

21:03

the same thing, including journalists. So

21:06

while it was clear that in the court

21:08

of public opinion, you know, the

21:10

mob was guilty of having

21:13

murdered this boy to keep this

21:15

other one out of prison, the

21:17

police never made the connection. So it

21:19

was never connected to the case and

21:21

ultimately just left an unsolved murder.

21:24

All of this is in your early report.

21:26

What impact did your investigation

21:29

have at the time?

21:31

At the time, my investigation

21:33

had very little impact and it was super

21:35

disappointing for me in a lot of ways. But

21:38

I got a call,

21:39

I'll never forget, I wound

21:41

up getting a call

21:43

from the mayor's office.

21:46

It was a sister, it was a black woman who

21:49

had told me that my name

21:51

had come across their desk as

21:54

a community member who had

21:56

deep ties to the community and

21:58

they wanted to offer me a job. So it's

22:01

obvious they heard it. It was obvious that that article

22:04

reached them. And it was also

22:06

obvious that it reached these Bridgeport

22:08

Italians because they want to pay a visit

22:11

to the South Street Journal office looking for

22:13

me. This is all like movie-ish, right?

22:16

Because everybody fits the description.

22:18

You know, you see it. You

22:20

know, if you, you know, you watch these

22:22

tough-looking Italian guys

22:26

jump out of a mob-ish

22:28

looking car going

22:31

into the South Street Journal office.

22:33

And at the time, white folks

22:35

would never be caught on that side

22:38

of town.

22:39

And so it automatically, like they stuck

22:41

out like sore thumbs like me and my buddies

22:43

did when we went to Bridgeport for retaliation.

22:46

So in that moment, it's like, oh, whoa, whoa, whoa, I didn't

22:48

get out the car, watch long story short,

22:51

they leave, I'm ducked down

22:53

and run upstairs. And so I just

22:55

took this thing to a whole new level and

22:58

indicated, you know, that much more

23:00

how involved mafia-related

23:03

folks probably were.

23:23

So after the attack, the

23:26

Caruso family started speaking out and saying

23:28

that their son wasn't guilty. But

23:30

at the same time, they also start going around

23:32

to black churches in the neighborhood where they

23:34

speak about racial healing and even

23:37

develop a relationship with Leonard

23:39

and his mother. Can you tell

23:41

me more about this conversation of racial

23:43

reconciliation that quickly took hold?

23:46

So yeah, a conversation about racial

23:48

reconciliation was started.

23:51

I don't have

23:53

any faith that it was ever genuine.

23:57

And it was concocted largely by

23:59

this family. Right and and

24:01

and and I know family the Caruso family

24:03

right? It's like look we got to keep this boy out of jail and

24:08

You know the first thing we got to do is

24:10

like let's get some attention off this let's start to

24:12

change How we're looking at

24:14

this let's let's frame it differently and

24:17

that's what racial Reconciliation came through and

24:19

then you had a couple mealy mouth black folks

24:21

who you know who were already probably

24:24

on On the Caruso

24:27

speed dial and you know We're

24:29

made to felt like they owed him favors or something They

24:31

were already in bed with some with

24:34

some black, you know So-called I call them so-called

24:36

leaders because they did have some you know some strong

24:39

constituencies and followings and support

24:42

in the south on the south side of Chicago and You

24:44

know, they just they fell in line and so

24:47

they were pushing this narrative

24:49

about you know, racial reconciliation

24:51

and healing which You

24:54

know Which is just absurd

24:58

to even suggest when

25:00

you're talking about a

25:03

Beating that was so vicious

25:05

of a boy that was so young by

25:08

people who were claiming they were guilty

25:10

What are you reconciling?

25:12

What do we healing from if you didn't do it?

25:14

As a listener just what I heard to Along

25:18

with all you're saying is that all of a sudden

25:20

the responsibility is being placed

25:22

on the victim and his family And his community

25:25

as opposed to

25:25

her perpetrator and

25:27

it just happened so quickly and there was no time

25:30

to allow The victim

25:32

his family and the community to even

25:35

process the actual event Because

25:37

they were forced into a conversation or they

25:39

tried to force them into a conversation about reconciliation

25:43

Which as you said is obviously was manipulated

25:45

and politicized. Well the victim and the family

25:48

actually were just the most

25:50

exploited and

25:51

Manipulated in my opinion

25:54

looking back

25:56

Because one the victim Lenara Clark

25:58

was in a coma and had to learn

26:00

how to walk and talk again. Right? So

26:03

him dealing with it and trying to come to some sort

26:05

of grips and understanding, having time

26:08

to it, is definitely not even a thing. And

26:10

his mother was already

26:12

so vulnerable. Having

26:15

been burdened with

26:17

a lot of the stresses of

26:20

living in the ghetto, raising

26:22

a child in the projects,

26:25

she was in a particularly vulnerable

26:28

situation that rendered

26:31

her more easily

26:33

manipulated and misled by

26:38

this white family and their

26:40

black

26:41

henchmen,

26:43

social henchmen, I'll call them. There's

26:46

a part in the podcast we get a quick mention.

26:49

When we ask other children in

26:51

the projects what they thought

26:53

about what happened to Lenara Clark, there

26:55

were a lot of them that actually wished

26:58

it would have happened to them so

27:00

that they could have been

27:03

removed from the projects. Because Lenara

27:05

Clark wound up and his family wound up being

27:07

moved to a home

27:09

outside of the projects, having a house with

27:12

wheelchair accessibility and all this

27:14

type of stuff. And so just

27:18

the prospect of being moved out of the projects

27:20

was so appealing that it

27:22

made children wish that they'd been beaten

27:25

into a coma, possibly near

27:27

death. And so it doesn't

27:30

take a whole lot to buy

27:32

a victim's cooperation

27:35

at

27:36

a certain level. If we have nothing

27:39

and you can put some food on this table,

27:42

it's going to start to mean a little bit more

27:44

than this kid going

27:48

to jail. I know this kid ain't going to take

27:50

my son again.

27:52

So him going to jail is

27:54

kind of inconsequential

27:56

when

27:57

we don't have food.

28:00

You know, and so, so

28:02

yeah, I think that it was, that was,

28:05

to me, still the most tragic factor

28:08

in this whole story is how their family was

28:10

handled and manipulated and how they were already,

28:13

you know, in such

28:15

a vulnerable state that that was even able to happen.

28:27

You mentioned

28:28

mealy mouth social, I can't

28:31

remember the word you used, social henchmen.

28:34

Social, mealy mouth social

28:36

henchmen. Tell me about Reverend

28:39

Martin.

28:41

Yeah, you know,

28:44

this

28:46

is an interesting conversation for me,

28:50

just because, tell

28:55

you another story. Okay. Real quick,

28:58

I was online and there's

29:00

a white woman who I'm

29:03

like Facebook friends with that we follow each other

29:05

on Instagram and really cool,

29:07

cool lady. We met through some

29:09

leather work and so she saw the

29:12

podcast and she got to talking

29:14

about, she got to talking about really badly

29:16

about Jesse Jackson and I

29:18

felt the way about it and I had to tell her that,

29:20

you know, even

29:22

as a white ally, you

29:25

got to be careful about

29:27

how poorly you speak

29:30

about the

29:32

black folks that even I ain't on

29:34

the side of because

29:36

it's just a hell of a dynamic. It's

29:38

almost like

29:39

if my cousin or brother

29:42

has betrayed me, still

29:45

my cousin and my brother and

29:47

he's still a victim and he's still

29:50

operating like this because he

29:52

is a victim of the same kind

29:54

of racist manipulation, exploitative

29:56

manipulation that I am. He's just too

29:59

weak. to fight

30:01

back in the same way. So it just becomes a touchy

30:04

situation. It can get emotional. It can get hard

30:06

to maintain a certain

30:08

logical approach to it. So that's why

30:10

I just, um, cringe a little bit. But

30:13

you know, I've introduced this concept in these terms.

30:15

So it is what it is. I just had to deal

30:17

with that in real time myself.

30:20

Reverend Martin,

30:21

um,

30:23

I would call him slippery. I would call him slick.

30:27

I don't think anyone is all bad. I think

30:29

Reverend Martin has

30:31

probably had, um,

30:33

better intentions in

30:35

his life and his work

30:37

than

30:39

what was demonstrated by

30:41

his participation in his role in this

30:44

whole fiasco. He was

30:46

the Reverend who apparently the

30:48

Carusos contacted as

30:51

soon as they realized they needed to do kind of damage

30:53

control with the community.

30:56

They contact Martin. They'd

30:58

already worked with Martin

31:00

to some degree. They knew Reverend

31:02

Martin already. I believe

31:05

that they were, uh, a lot

31:07

of them were in bed with these, with these so-called

31:09

black leaders, uh, through the Caruso's

31:12

union work. I believe that it was through

31:15

the Caruso's involvement

31:18

in the union and ability

31:20

to kind of create and supply,

31:22

uh, labor work for

31:25

black folks that the Reverend Martin's

31:27

of this case were able to kind of, um,

31:30

hand out, which is what put

31:32

them in, in communication in the

31:34

first place. And so, you know, Reverend

31:36

Martin just starts running

31:38

with this absurd, ludicrous,

31:41

ridiculous narrative

31:43

that it wasn't Frankie

31:45

Caruso, Jr. That it was somebody else

31:48

starts to invoke how Jesus would want

31:50

us to all get along and, and

31:53

how we should heal and no one

31:55

wins from this animus

31:57

and this hostility.

32:00

Which

32:01

questions, like,

32:03

what respect or regard do

32:05

you have for this little boy and his

32:08

family and any little boy that looks like

32:10

him that may run up and

32:13

find himself in the same circumstances? And

32:17

so he played a major part,

32:20

and that helped to divide,

32:22

you know, black folks, because he has a large constituency

32:26

and congregation of black folks. And

32:29

like a lot of spiritual followers

32:31

tend to do, they bought a hook line

32:33

and sinker. This is their spiritual leader.

32:36

It doesn't get bigger than that. It doesn't get more powerful

32:38

than that. And don't get me wrong, you know,

32:42

I can't judge

32:44

Herbert Martin. You know, I'm

32:46

not,

32:47

you know, I come up in the tradition of Christianity

32:50

myself. And so, you know, I

32:52

don't, I live in a glass house. I

32:54

can't throw stones. I've

32:56

done wrong. I've done things I'm not

32:59

proud of.

33:00

But it was just so, so

33:02

frustrating and disheartening to

33:05

interview him 20-something years

33:07

later and watch him stand

33:09

by those words and stand by those moves.

33:12

It was crazy.

33:13

I appreciate the honesty with which you responded

33:16

to my question.

33:18

But I also really appreciated

33:20

the honesty with which you tell the story

33:22

in the podcast where you yourself

33:25

explore your own internal contradictions

33:27

about just those sort of things. I

33:30

mean, that was

33:31

a really amazing way

33:33

for us to be brought into the story was

33:35

through your own internal.

33:37

Can

33:38

you talk a little bit about that? Because it's through

33:40

the whole thing.

33:41

Yeah. I mean, that was something I didn't

33:43

expect to deal with. We didn't expect to deal with. There

33:46

was a woman named Perry Small who was

33:48

worked at WVON

33:50

at one point when she realized

33:53

I had gone to prison. She

33:55

asked me what I was in prison for and I told her I had

33:58

sold drugs.

33:59

She just very nonchalantly quickly was, oh,

34:02

okay, you sold out. But you did

34:04

your time and you're back and you're here and

34:06

you're doing good stuff with yourself. Let's move on, right?

34:09

You've acknowledged it, right? And

34:11

it hit me a little bit,

34:13

right? And I was, it was at that moment once,

34:16

we're discussing sellouts, we're discussing that

34:18

whole concept. And so, yeah, the fact

34:21

that we're also discussing my

34:23

trip to prison, my life as

34:25

a drug dealer, and the fact that

34:29

somebody we had spoke to had

34:31

suggested that I was a sellout, it was relevant.

34:34

And it just made sense

34:37

to talk about,

34:38

because we were honestly

34:40

trying to explore. We

34:43

weren't trying to just craft a narrative.

34:46

We're honestly trying to explore what happened

34:49

in that case, what happened with me,

34:51

where are the through lines, where are the parallels?

34:54

And it was just, you know, you

34:56

can't really overlook that. It

34:58

just stuck out like a sore thumb. Speaking of

35:00

sellouts, you've been called one for

35:03

what you did, what you think, I had to sit with that. And

35:06

a lot of people, that resonated, interestingly,

35:10

with a lot of listeners.

35:12

And what I tell folks, and I'm not sure

35:14

it came across on the podcast, is that I

35:16

wind up accepting, acknowledging the

35:18

fact that, yeah, once in front of that

35:20

question, did I sell out? Selling

35:22

drugs, heroin in particular,

35:25

to black folks, knowing

35:29

the struggle, understanding what black

35:31

folks are already up against,

35:32

yeah, I would deem

35:35

that a sellout move. However,

35:37

that's not to say that I think

35:40

that every

35:41

black man selling drugs

35:44

in his community is selling out. I

35:47

don't think it's that simple. I think that

35:49

we are in a very unique situation.

35:52

You talk about nuance, right? We're in a very unique

35:55

situation where our access

35:58

to legitimate,

35:59

routes

36:02

of building prosperity and wealth pales

36:05

in comparison to our access

36:09

to drugs as a means

36:11

of developing what looks like prosperity

36:14

and wealth. And that is by design.

36:17

For me, I'm selling out because I know

36:19

better, because I was raised in a

36:21

different tradition, because I come from Panthers

36:24

and civil rights activists. And

36:27

I know how much this was designed

36:30

to stifle black liberation and

36:32

black progress. Knowing that and

36:34

understanding that and still

36:37

selling drugs with the idea that I'll get

36:39

money and get out and change the

36:41

situation, I was selling

36:43

out by doing that. A lot

36:46

of my buddies who never looked

36:48

at life like that, because they never understood

36:51

life like that, because they were placed

36:55

and started so far

36:57

at the bottom, it wasn't selling

36:59

out. It was survival. And that just speaks to

37:02

just how tricky and complicated

37:05

opposition as black folks in America

37:08

is.

37:10

Well, I have to tell you, as a white woman

37:12

from Canada listening, it came through

37:14

and it was an experience

37:17

and very worthwhile. And I really

37:19

appreciate

37:21

everything that you guys put into this podcast.

37:23

It was really important to listen to.

37:32

Let's wrap up by, unfortunately,

37:34

going back to the perpetrators. They

37:36

finally do go to trial. Can you

37:39

tell me what happens? What was the verdict?

37:42

They go to trial. The charges only brought against

37:44

three of the men when they were

37:46

likely at least six.

37:50

And the ringleader, Frankie Caruso

37:52

Jr., the son of the mob boss,

37:56

he gets sentenced to like eight years.

37:59

His case is a piece of paper. healed, he winds

38:01

up doing less than two years. The

38:05

other two who were accused

38:07

with Michael Cutler, who was

38:09

going to testify, who had

38:12

already agreed to testify and wasn't reneging,

38:14

with him out of the way, with him now dead, murdered,

38:18

and Caruso Jr. having

38:21

been convicted, and these other two changing

38:23

their story, the case against

38:26

them had just become weak, and

38:29

they were offered probation.

38:31

So they wound up never

38:33

seeing any jail time for

38:36

the conviction. And so all

38:38

in all,

38:39

for the assault of a 13-year-old

38:42

boy that left him in a coma, left his

38:44

life permanently changed, disrupted

38:47

his family, took them through stress that

38:49

continues to haunt them to this day, less

38:52

than two years of jail time was served

38:55

in total. And it's just,

38:58

yeah, when I compare that to the stories,

39:00

including myself, of black men

39:02

going through the criminal justice system and

39:05

the type of sentences we receive for

39:07

the type of crimes we are

39:09

found guilty of, I think

39:11

it just kind of points to what we're

39:14

dealing with in America.

39:16

Did this project

39:17

help clarify anything

39:20

for you? Did it release anything for

39:22

you? Or did it,

39:24

you know, you've got now a bit of time from

39:27

being finished to being released, to being

39:29

in the public, to getting a response. How

39:31

has all of that sort of come back at you?

39:34

Yeah, it's put a lot on

39:36

my mind. So on a good note, right,

39:39

I am

39:40

reenergized, and

39:43

I feel a lot better about

39:45

what can be done through journalism.

39:47

We live in a different world now where

39:49

it's not just three channels

39:51

and a couple of newspapers that gets the word

39:54

out to the masses. You got independent

39:56

journalism organizations

39:58

that are doing amazing work.

39:59

work. You got social media

40:02

which allows for a lot

40:04

of voices that you know are noise

40:06

but it also allows for voices

40:09

like ours

40:10

and the team of journalists that you

40:12

know I've been introduced to. I have

40:15

created really beautiful professional

40:18

relationships and beautiful friendships

40:21

with white allies that I had

40:23

known prior to this experience. So

40:26

I see I do see hope. I see more

40:28

hope through journalism in particular but

40:31

you know going through all of it talking to Reverend

40:34

Martin 25 years later you know

40:36

I'm also reminded of

40:39

how much hasn't changed. A lot

40:41

of this was was motivated

40:44

you know and inspired by watching

40:47

these violent assaults

40:49

on black life go unpunished

40:52

for the past 10-15 years and so

40:56

it's a lot that hasn't changed and to

40:58

be black in America is to be under constant

41:01

attack. It is to be in

41:04

a perpetual war and

41:06

so you know I'm reminded that that

41:09

war is still intense. That

41:11

battle is still going on but

41:13

I'm also encouraged by the fact that

41:16

we got more weapons that we

41:18

got to take advantage of and use.

41:25

Well this was wonderful talking

41:27

to you. I so appreciate the

41:29

time and the thoughtfulness you put into this conversation.

41:32

Thank you. Thank

41:33

you. Thank you. I really appreciate

41:35

it. The opportunity just to share

41:38

in a real way. Thank you.

41:57

You've been listening to Crime Story from CBC

41:59

podcast.

42:00

Next week, I'll be talking to Michael Lista

42:03

about the life and death

42:04

of Dr. Elena Frick. I

42:06

think if you want to understand what crime

42:08

really means, it is about,

42:10

especially a murder, it is about

42:12

a human being being obliterated by

42:15

another human being. It's like a library

42:17

being burned to the ground.

42:19

That conversation is available now

42:21

on CBC Podcast's YouTube channel

42:24

or for subscribers to CBC

42:27

Podcast's Apple True Crime

42:29

channel. In addition to early

42:31

access, subscribers to our True

42:33

Crime channel also listen ad-free.

42:35

Crime

42:36

Story is written and hosted by me. Our

42:39

producers are Alexis Green and

42:41

Sarah Clayton. Sound design by

42:44

Graham McDonald. Our senior producer

42:46

is Jeff Turner. Our video producer

42:48

is Evan Agard. Our YouTube producer

42:51

is John Lee. Executive producers

42:53

are Cecil Fernandez and Chris Oak. Tanya

42:56

Springer is CBC Podcast's senior manager

42:58

and Arif Narani is the director of

43:01

CBC Podcasts.