0:00

Let's move into, uh, the type

0:02

threes now, type threes again.

0:04

You guys are in the heart center and you're probably thinking

0:06

really because,

0:08

and it's not because it's so fu

0:10

threes don't have a heart there.

0:12

Well, they do have

0:14

a heart, but they do, they do. What's so

0:16

fascinating about the threes is their

0:19

ability through kind

0:21

of ways of survival when they were younger,

0:24

is they felt

0:26

that they had to be the most admired,

0:29

successful, accomplished,

0:31

uh, person, whether in their family, their school,

0:33

their sports, their, you know, musical

0:36

instruments, whatever they were doing, they

0:38

really felt this need. To

0:41

appear successful and then be admired

0:43

and, and told how great they were doing

0:46

because that's how they would feel loved.

0:48

But the problem is that shifts

0:51

with every group you're with, right?

0:53

So your family's gonna think this is amazing,

0:56

but then maybe your coach over here thinks something

0:58

different is amazing, your youth group, and so on and

1:00

so forth. So the threes are

1:02

constantly assessing

1:05

situations of what

1:07

does this group person, um,

1:09

environment think is the most,

1:12

uh, Awesome, uh,

1:15

uh, the most admired, high

1:17

status, great image for

1:19

that particular situation. And then they learn to

1:21

shapeshift or, um, become

1:24

more like that in order

1:26

to gain the affirmation. So

1:28

in order to do that, though they are, they've

1:30

taught themselves, um, to naturally

1:34

put their feelings, um, aside

1:36

and their, their authentic identity

1:38

to become whatever it would be

1:41

to be admired in that group setting. And

1:44

that it just naturally happens. But

1:47

that's hard because then they

1:49

have a harder time than bringing up and

1:51

accessing what are their true

1:53

feelings? What are their true emotions? What's their, um,

1:56

true identity, their authentic self?

1:58

Um, and so that's a hard process. And

2:00

what I've heard from threes is when they do

2:03

try to go there, it

2:05

feels so, a lot of people are like, oh, they're just,

2:07

you know, surface level people. Um,

2:10

because they're just shapeshifting a lot and

2:12

they're not being authentic, they're not being honest.

2:15

Um, but what we wanna

2:17

understand about a three is to get to

2:19

those authentic emotions and their authentic,

2:22

um, identity from a genuine place.

2:24

It feels, and if you're watching this on YouTube,

2:27

you can kind of see my hands. It feels like they're

2:29

coming from where they're at and they're having

2:31

to free fall as if like they're falling

2:34

into a well and they have no

2:36

idea where that well will

2:38

end. And they're just free falling

2:40

into this blackness. And it is

2:42

very scary cuz they don't know what this

2:44

is gonna mean for them. They don't know where they're

2:46

going. What do other people think? This has

2:48

been their whole world and they would

2:50

rather not have that experience.

2:53

And so they typically move back up to the

2:55

surface of where they can shape shift

2:57

and just put on an image. Cause they know it works.

2:59

They know they're gonna get kind of like quote unquote

3:01

a hit of love

3:04

through achieving, um,

3:07

Versus taking the time

3:09

to allow themselves to

3:11

rest in the, the gospel, rest in

3:14

the love and the admiration that God has for them because

3:16

of how he created them and what he has done through

3:18

them, which is that free fall.

3:20

And then they land into the knowing,

3:22

the full knowing of, oh

3:25

my gosh, I am love for simply

3:27

being me. I don't have to do all this stuff.

3:29

Like, he sees me fully and accepts me

3:31

like, and that fall

3:34

is so hard for them because it's

3:36

just too scary. But when they get there,

3:38

that genuine self emerges.

3:41

So my, does this

3:43

sound remotely true for you?

3:46

And if so, what? What comes to

3:48

mind?

3:49

Yeah, absolutely. I, you know,

3:51

I can think of so many times where

3:54

it's so funny the way even you describe

3:56

the struggles of

3:58

a three, but also part of me actually

4:00

really enjoys the thought of achieving,

4:03

even as you're talking. Um,

4:06

is, I mean, it's, it's a both, right? Like, it's

4:08

there, it's two sides to one coin, like we want

4:10

you guys to achieve. You guys are so phenomenal

4:13

at motivating, achieving, encouraging,

4:16

um, making things better. Like we want

4:18

that. And at the same time,

4:20

it can also be a detriment to you, just like we were talking with

4:22

Megan, with taking on people's feelings. Um,

4:25

so, sorry, go ahead.

4:27

No, you're right. And even as we were, uh,

4:29

as Megan was talking about shame, I was just thinking about

4:31

even my own. You know, story,

4:34

think about the wounded child and just

4:36

kind of my, uh, why.

4:39

Um, so, or at least as

4:42

I've been walking through life, the proclivities

4:44

I have towards why

4:46

I value certain things. So, for example, you know,

4:49

I was an athlete, but it was never enough for

4:51

me just to be a good athlete. I always was comparing,

4:53

am I the best athlete?

4:54

Mm-hmm.

4:55

And if I wasn't, then I

4:57

had to double down and

4:59

work super hard at, and

5:01

that was my gauge.

5:03

Because of what? Like what,

5:05

why, what, was like maybe as a kid, what

5:07

was your thought? Like, well, if I'm not the best and

5:09

I have to work harder because

5:11

yeah, so some of that is my own growing up.

5:13

So I was born with a cleft lip and palate and

5:15

just, you know, the, you can imagine

5:17

for a three as a young

5:19

kid, all the kids kind of pointing out,

5:22

uh, a birth defect that

5:24

you have. It just reinforced

5:26

that I'm not accepted, I'm not loved. But

5:29

I was a good athlete. I could, I was

5:31

more, usually more athletic, faster, taller,

5:33

stronger than most kids. And so

5:35

that was my end is to,

5:38

at whether recess, whether it was with

5:40

sports teams, I'm gonna be

5:42

the best. And I just

5:44

can't be good because to get in that circle, to

5:46

be accepted, to be approved by other

5:48

people, I have to accomplish

5:51

and kind of do different things. And

5:53

you know, that, uh,

5:55

played its way through, through a

5:58

host of different things as I was growing up.

6:00

But even as I became a Christian, you know, my freshman

6:02

year of college, then I found myself, you

6:04

know, taking a Christian form

6:06

of different things. You know, even though I knew

6:09

I was accepted to Christ, I learned very

6:11

quickly coming into a certain

6:14

Christian group, okay, here are the practices I

6:16

need to do. Here's, here's how good I need

6:18

to perform. And

6:20

then I'll get affirmed by these

6:22

people. I value in the Christian community too, and.

6:25

Mike, I, I don't think I've ever shared this with

6:27

you, but, uh, so

6:29

I had been loosely tied

6:31

to a church growing up. They would invite

6:34

me to VBS and youth

6:36

camps and, and I'd usually make a profession

6:39

of faith and want to turn my life around, uh,

6:41

at each of them. But,

6:44

uh, It, it

6:46

wasn't until my, I, I don't remember

6:48

That was a junior or sophomore year. Probably sophomore

6:50

year. No, it was probably junior year. Yeah. Um,

6:53

but I, I just, I, I was trying to go get

6:55

a date with a girl who went to that church and,

6:58

um, so I went to church that Sunday and my

7:00

parents were like, I, I'm gonna land on the planet.

7:02

It relates to three, but, um, I'm

7:04

not trying to tell my high school dating, uh,

7:07

history, but

7:09

it didn't work out. And, but I sat

7:12

there in the church service and,

7:14

uh, Jesus showed up and

7:16

like the scales fell

7:18

off. My heart was free. Uh, rose went

7:21

forth and followed the right. Um, I, man, I

7:23

just quoted that, that's

7:24

one of my favorite songs. And can it

7:26

be here?

7:28

Oh, there you go. Good job. Um,

7:31

so I go out to my car,

7:34

I take out my Metallica Master

7:36

of Puppet's cassette tape. Um,

7:40

And this is my sinner's

7:42

prayer. Your three part came out shining.

7:44

This is my sinner's prayer. God,

7:47

I'm gonna be the best you've ever seen.

7:54

That's

7:55

But, but I mean, I totally took,

7:57

I mean, you know, there's all kinds

7:59

of meaning that go into that. Like, I

8:01

really wanted this, this is my

8:03

new self now. Yeah. But it,

8:06

it was taking this performance

8:08

mentality into Christianity

8:10

now that where even

8:13

our faith can actually be a symptom

8:15

of our performance, heart performance.

8:16

And with that, what I'd love to hear in

8:19

kind of relation to the heart triad

8:21

with that is, Mike,

8:23

tell us what it's like when you see

8:26

those aha moments of, oh, I'm

8:28

gonna get praise or accolades

8:31

or, um, be admired

8:33

if I take on this image. What

8:36

is it like when you have that aha moment

8:38

and you then your inner world

8:40

goes, oh, well then I need to move that

8:43

other image to the side, or my authentic

8:45

self to the side, or my emotions are gonna get

8:47

in the way so I can get to that

8:49

place. What, what does that feel like internally

8:51

to shut off emotions and your identity?

8:55

Yeah, I, uh, it's so

8:57

when I'm struggling, it's funny cuz I, I

8:59

wanted, I feel like I've been seeing it in two

9:01

ways and one way I actually wanted to ask you about,

9:04

but the first way, um, I've,

9:06

I've seen it, is I literally just inwardly

9:08

think, okay, let's shut

9:10

this down and then just go accomplish

9:12

this or do this. Like, you can do this, of

9:14

course you're gonna do this like this

9:17

and you know, It's gonna feel really good.

9:18

strong of a pivot. It's like, okay,

9:21

done.

9:22

Hmm.

9:24

Yeah. There have just been times where I felt, you

9:26

know, uh, whether it's I'm gonna

9:28

be exposed or whether, you know,

9:30

um, these people are gonna

9:32

say this about me or whatever,

9:35

I can just emerly like, okay, it's

9:37

time to take that box, close it, set

9:39

it on the shelf, and you know, you

9:41

just gotta get to work and go do this thing.

9:44

And, um, and you know, in

9:46

those times, I think, I feel,

9:49

I feel inwardly clouded

9:51

a lot is, the way I describe it,

9:53

is that my thoughts are,

9:56

I feel a sense of hurry. So if, you

9:59

know, I have a tell Tracy, um, and

10:01

even my staff team, if I feel

10:03

like I'm talking faster or if I feel

10:05

like I'm in a hurry, it's because inwardly

10:08

I'm feeling a, like something's happening

10:11

where I'm feeling shamed or I'm gonna be exposed.

10:13

And so I'm just trying to accomplish

10:16

something to like suppress those feelings.

10:18

Hmm.

10:19

like the box is like popping open that I've tried

10:21

to set aside. Um, but

10:24

that's usually what's happening for me is that

10:26

I feel super clouded. Um,

10:28

just even in my thinking and,

10:31

um, speaking. But

10:33

the other way I've seen it, uh, read more

10:35

recently pop up is, um,

10:38

I've been accessing that almost like when

10:40

I need to for motivation. So

10:43

I set it aside and I'm like, okay, well

10:45

they're gonna say this about me, but I don't know if it's like the

10:47

athlete in me where it's like, they're gonna

10:49

say this about me, so let's get that

10:51

and I'm gonna go prove them wrong. You

10:54

know what I mean? Like, I'm gonna go

10:56

So It's a, motivator. It's

10:57

it's a motivator and then I'm gonna rub it in their

10:59

face and they're gonna say this and this about me.

11:04

I love that. so

11:07

funny as you guys are talking, cuz um,

11:10

it'll be interesting with, with lax, cause I don't have as

11:12

much like, cuz we use online types. I

11:14

don't have as much four, but obviously

11:17

when, um, Megan was talking about the one

11:19

and the three, those were connected to me and Mike, as you're talking,

11:21

I'm like, oh my gosh. Like the, I

11:24

was just thinking when you were like, I'm in a hurry

11:26

when we're at the airport.

11:27

Oh man, she is like, zippy.

11:30

Like, I'm, I don't even know why you're like,

11:33

you're almost running even. I'm like,

11:34

I don't even know. I'm like, we have just,

11:36

we have got to go and, and like I'm a nice,

11:38

I'm kind of a slow like, you know,

11:41

meandering kind of person usually, but when I'm in

11:43

the airport, it is like I leave my family

11:45

behind. It's like we are going, she will

11:47

sprint

11:48

to the gate. And then we get there and

11:50

it's like, well, what,

11:51

So

11:51

were

11:51

you in a hurry for? Yeah. And then we have like an hour and a half,

11:54

you know, it's

11:55

Hurry up to

11:56

but when you're, when you're talking about that, Mike, I'm

11:58

like, I totally know what you're talking about

12:00

now. That's not who I am all the time, you know? Cause

12:02

three is not, you know, my primary type. But

12:04

when you were saying, I was like, yes, I know that

12:07

part. Like, it, it, it comes

12:09

up and sometimes I don't even know what it's afraid

12:11

of. What is it running towards and why is it

12:13

running away from something? Usually it's like,

12:15

well, I don't wanna miss the plane, you know? Of course. Then my six

12:18

is probably showing up going, well, here's

12:20

all the things that could go wrong. And the three's like, well, I gotcha.

12:22

Let's go. You know? Um, but

12:24

just as you're talking, I'm like, yes, I know what

12:26

that part is. I can, I can feel it. So I'm hoping

12:28

that the, the listeners can

12:31

realize that though. We're talking to a two, three,

12:33

and four. How do these

12:35

parts, if they show up very much,

12:37

how do they show up in your life? So I just

12:39

kind of wanna highlight that real quick. Well,

12:40

and you just to

12:42

speak to the gift of the three to be able to pivot.

12:46

Yes. It's

12:46

amazing. I mean, I don't, I

12:48

mean, compartmentalize has negative

12:51

connotations to it, but

12:53

I'm assuming Megan, like whenever you're going

12:55

down a shame spiral and you've gotta

12:58

kind of get yourself together to reengage

13:01

that three part of you learning how to overcome

13:04

the tsunami of emotions and just move

13:06

forward actually is a gift. And Leah,

13:08

I'm assuming for you that

13:11

people associated you with the three,

13:13

from what you said earlier,

13:15

Mm-hmm.

13:15

it's a strong part of you that helps

13:17

you to get organized despite

13:20

what you may be feeling to be able

13:22

to move forward in your calling? Yeah. Would,

13:24

would either Megan or Leah, would you get like to

13:26

comment on that?

13:28

Yeah, Jeff. So that example

13:30

I gave of Saturday, there was like I

13:32

was going in the shame I shouldn't have, should have. And

13:34

it was actually, I didn't think about it in this way, but I

13:36

think it was the three wing. I

13:38

realized I had to make a decision, but I was

13:41

like, Ooh, I don't know. Cuz I don't know what they think.

13:43

Cuz we two care a lot. I think a lot

13:45

the feeling tri cares a lot about what people think.

13:47

And so I finally, I like made a time cuz

13:50

I was about to be an analysis paralysis

13:52

and I had to be like, Megan, what would you

13:54

do if you weren't afraid? And so

13:56

I think that in a some way was maybe

13:58

the three being like, Hey, it's okay. Like,

14:00

you know, you can do it. We gotta, we gotta keep moving

14:03

forward. So that, yeah, that's I think an example

14:05

of how the three was like, Hey, we're gonna do it and

14:07

we're gonna do it. Afraid it's probably

14:09

okay.

14:10

Hmm.

14:11

Yeah, I love that. And Leah, what about

14:13

you?

14:14

Yeah, absolutely. I was actually just

14:16

thinking, um, when I first learned the Enneagram,

14:18

it was at, um, the church where I was on staff.

14:20

We went through the Enneagram and I was misdiagnosed.

14:23

Misdiagnosed, what am I saying? Mistyped as a

14:25

three.

14:26

Yeah. That's a Freudian slip. Let's be honest.

14:28

Diagnosed.

14:29

You've always known there was a problem.

14:34

I love that.

14:35

man. Anyway, my

14:37

pastor, our senior pastor said that's

14:39

why I hired her. She's gonna get this

14:41

job done. And I was starting a study center

14:43

with another staff member.

14:45

And so like, my ability

14:47

to get things done, my ability to accomplish

14:50

things, it's like up on my strengths

14:52

finder. Um, and so, um,

14:55

that's really strong. I mean, but I do the,

14:57

the emotion, the shift emotionally.

15:00

Um, it's been interesting and I'll go into that,

15:03

um, has, I've actually think I

15:05

showed up as a self press. For,

15:07

for a long time. Um,

15:09

and that has kind of shifted. So

15:12

I think I really did know how to show

15:14

up and, um, and do

15:16

what needed to be done. Especially

15:18

if somebody gives me a goal,

15:21

I can meet that goal. Like I, I

15:23

know what I need to do and I can, I

15:26

can get there if I have to establish

15:28

the goal myself. It's a little bit more tricky.

15:30

Yeah. Yeah. Hey, Mike. Um,

15:33

and as it relates to emotions, so

15:36

we. Developing

15:39

emotional intelligence, learning how to

15:41

name, uh, and address

15:43

what we're feeling. Uh, everybody

15:45

has it, but four, A three

15:48

does it, do you ever sort

15:50

of misapply emotional intelligence

15:53

where it becomes mu more like

15:56

you're accomplished in your ability

15:58

to name your emotions? Like, man, I am

16:00

the best at emotional intelligence.

16:03

Yeah, absolutely. I mean,

16:05

it is funny, even the thought

16:07

of healing, I've thought about this

16:09

a little bit, that I think of healing as

16:11

a path like this. It's just,

16:14

it's, well, that's what it means to heal is

16:16

you've

16:17

is that, I mean, that's pretty much your everything

16:19

in life, right? It has to, and, and for those

16:21

who are listening, he is showing a upward

16:23

trajectory like on a graph, you know,

16:25

like we are, that is moving towards

16:27

a hundred percent

16:28

up.

16:29

success.

16:31

um, I was actually talking to

16:33

the pastor of our, our

16:35

care, um, here, and

16:38

he was just talking about, you know, walking

16:40

through challenges with people, and particularly

16:43

in our family as, as we walk through ministry

16:46

struggles. And he said, Mike, you wanna

16:48

run, but are you willing to just walk

16:50

with your family? Uh, she

16:52

needs to walk. And I thought,

16:55

uh, I don't know. So,

16:57

Well, I mean, that's like, yeah, in the airport,

17:00

you know what running's good for your body, so maybe should

17:02

all be running. But,

17:05

but it's kinda like, you know, like, like Mike

17:07

and I in the airport were, is like taking

17:09

off, leaving our family behind and not

17:11

realizing it, but also thinking there's a good reason

17:13

for it. Like, well, we don't wanna be miss the plane

17:15

or we don't wanna miss the goal or the image

17:17

or whatever it is. Um, and so

17:19

what was that, what was that like to reflect

17:22

on that question? Like what came up for you?

17:25

I think it was a sense of, um,

17:29

vulnerability, uh, probably is the best word

17:31

of like you, I think I'm running because it just

17:33

to, to be, to walk or to wait or

17:35

to feel any of these emotions feels vulnerable

17:38

to me. And like you're saying,

17:40

like I just wanna shut that off and

17:42

perform cuz that's how ultimately

17:45

I think I'm gonna be accepted. But it's, but

17:47

it's interesting because, you know, if we think about

17:49

even the gospel and what Christ

17:51

has done and how it's worked in my own life, is that

17:55

like, just to face it, like, you know, Jesus says,

17:57

bless, serve those who mourn. Like, I think just

17:59

like the reality of facing,

18:01

you know, my failures, but not only that,

18:03

just facing the shame and guilt and

18:06

realizing that I have the resources

18:08

of the gospel and

18:10

that I'm united to Christ like that, that's

18:12

who I am. And I think even

18:14

as a leader and follower of Jesus,

18:16

that what I've, and this has

18:18

probably been one of the biggest points of growth

18:20

over the next last few years for me, is that, Not

18:23

running from that, but sitting in that and

18:25

realizing, okay, like, but I'm still

18:27

loved and accepted in Christ, and

18:30

then that actually propels me outward

18:32

instead of, then I'm propelled through the

18:34

strength of Christ rather than my own strength. So

18:37

then I don't over function as a leader and

18:39

I'm much more secure. I feel like that

18:42

would probably be the biggest word that I think my family

18:44

and those are my staff team would say, is that,

18:47

you know, as I've walked through some of these things, they've

18:49

done just a more secure leader. I'm not like

18:52

operating out of all that.

18:53

we talked about this with Megan earlier, that when

18:55

she's feeling the most insecure, sometimes

18:57

it comes across as more confidence.

19:00

And for threes, I think everybody just assumes

19:03

like they're confident. They're secure in

19:05

who they are, and they can run.

19:07

When in reality, um, and

19:10

I think, you know, my good friend Travis

19:12

in St. Louis, but we saw

19:14

a guy running, uh, on

19:16

the highway next to the seminary. Oh, that's right.

19:19

Uh, he wasn't on the highway. He was on a service

19:21

road. And, and

19:23

then like just a second later, a

19:25

cop car drives by, uh, with

19:27

its lights on and Travis says, you

19:30

know what? We admire those who are running, but we never

19:32

ask what are they running from? And,

19:34

and it, when hearing

19:36

you say like, you know, at times it, it feels

19:39

like, yeah, I'll, I'll portray confidence,

19:41

but inwardly I'm actually very

19:43

afraid. And, and just one

19:46

last thing and we'll go to type four.

19:48

You know, Mike, your, your

19:50

willingness to engage

19:52

in your heart has been a gift

19:55

to our son. Yeah. As you shepherded

19:58

him from experiencing

20:01

spiritual harm. And

20:04

still having a desire to serve

20:06

Christ within ministry and then mentoring

20:09

him for a year. Like

20:11

I, I, you know, as a father,

20:13

I want to be all things for my kids

20:15

and the be and, and I

20:17

never can be. But the

20:19

Lord has put men like yourself

20:22

in Nate's life that

20:24

have had significant, um,

20:29

uh, blessings in his life for healing.

20:31

And so I, I'm just grateful

20:34

for the work that you've done. It, it has mattered.

20:36

So if, if you need another trophy, the

20:39

McCord family is a trophy on

20:41

your shelf about doing the

20:43

work and blessing our children and

20:45

helping them a along the way

20:47

in their own

20:47

stories. So I think that's what's so. Awesome

20:50

about when we, cuz the Enneagram

20:53

often when we start learning it

20:55

or reading it and when we're not in a good

20:57

place in our heart, we just

21:00

see everything that's negative about

21:02

ourselves and highlight. Right? And, and

21:04

it's just like blaring at us and then

21:06

we get into those shame cycles or criticism

21:09

cycles. Um, but

21:11

a lot of times we miss the

21:14

beautiful side of our type.

21:16

And I remember when we were

21:18

first learning about the anagram, I would, there

21:20

was one book that talked about all the different nine

21:22

levels of health and. I

21:25

looked at the, the healthiest levels

21:27

and I'm like, that's not even close

21:29

to where I'm at. And,

21:32

but I was like, wait a second. But that's

21:34

still who God created me to be and how to

21:36

reflect him. So I'm just gonna take the time to pray

21:39

these things over myself and knowing that God

21:41

will work those in me in his due

21:43

time. It was very interesting. Beth would walk

21:45

through the house, uh, people listen

21:47

to my voice.

21:48

I did not all it

21:49

matter to people. I did not

21:51

like, well, sure Beth.

21:53

She didn't do that. Like, I'm embarrassed

21:55

just you even say that. I'm like, I would

21:57

never do such a thing. Um, my

22:00

voice matters. Um,

22:04

but in all seriousness, I think

22:06

it's important that. We all

22:09

recognize when God has

22:11

worked in, in, through us, that it is not

22:13

about ourselves pulling ourselves up by our bootstraps

22:16

and fixing ourselves. It's about us surrendering,

22:18

depending on him and the work Christ

22:20

has done in and through us. Um,

22:23

now and moving forward. And I, Mike,

22:25

that's truly what, cuz I know we could

22:27

sit here and we could say goods, Mike,

22:29

good job. You know? Um, but ultimately

22:31

I think what we're saying is we've seen

22:34

you as a three humble yourself

22:37

recognizing your need for the cross

22:40

and your need to be authentic and real, and that you're safe in

22:42

that which gives you the, the gives other

22:44

people security and safety

22:46

in you. And so anyway, I just

22:49

hope that other threes will, will hear that as well.

22:52

Ready for type

22:53

four? Ready for type four? All right.

22:55

I mean, is Leah ready for type four?

22:57

I don't know,

22:57

ready.

22:58

but you're getting pretty personal here, Beth. This

23:00

is a, yeah, it's a good one. This is a

23:02

good

23:02

Hmm.

23:04

Yeah. So fours, you know, being

23:06

in the heart triad, um,

23:08

they have no feelings. No kidding. No,

23:13

I mean, it's the complete opposite. Fours

23:15

feel all of their feelings

23:17

and then some, um, the highs

23:20

and the lows and everything in between. Um,

23:22

and they're constantly searching

23:25

for depth intensity, beauty,

23:29

um, whatever's authentic and real,

23:32

um, is really where they wanna go. Now,

23:35

for them, they struggle with the feeling

23:37

of shame, and this is where they

23:39

feel that others aren't able to see

23:42

who their most authentic self is.

23:44

That they have a special quality about

23:46

them and that they're misunderstood. And

23:49

being misunderstood is really hard on them

23:51

because it feels like they don't belong.

23:54

Um, that they are somehow an outsider

23:56

and they. And in order

23:58

to get others to see the significance

24:00

of what they offer the world in, in

24:03

something creative, unique. And it's not creative.

24:05

Like, we're not talking about like always being an artist

24:07

and a painter. It's unique in whatever,

24:09

uh, field or passion you

24:12

have, um, to

24:13

know, well, our lead pastor in Illinois mm-hmm. His was

24:15

sermons. Yeah. And it was his, the

24:18

pastoral counseling that he offered people

24:20

was his biggest expression

24:22

of who he was. Mm-hmm. Yeah. His unique value,

24:24

his creative, um, ability

24:26

to see people in a, in a different way.

24:29

So for the fours,

24:31

again, they have all of these emotions and, um,

24:34

and you know, I always talk, talk

24:37

about how fours, it's like, you

24:39

know, the, the lottery machine with all the ping pong

24:41

balls in it. Mm-hmm. Well, They

24:43

have all of these emotions inside. They're very

24:45

aware of what these emotions

24:47

are. And if

24:49

you would love to know those emotions, like,

24:51

Hey, what are you feeling right now? Um,

24:54

they're kind of wondering, do you really wanna know?

24:56

Like, are you going to take the time to really listen

24:59

and understand me? Or are

25:01

you just, is this just kind of platitudes?

25:04

Because for the four they can see

25:06

all of these ping pong balls in there that have emotions

25:08

and they can take one at a time and nuance

25:11

it and talk about it and share with it. But they wanna

25:13

know that you are going to

25:15

receive it. That, that

25:17

they have a place that they can belong and be

25:19

cherished in their. That they can captivate

25:23

the audience with beautiful Beau Beauty

25:25

and Depth. Um, but

25:27

the emotion of shame can well up

25:29

because they feel as if they're

25:32

defective and flawed, that there's something wrong, that

25:34

others can't understand them. And

25:36

that really sets 'em on a trajectory

25:38

of going more inward into their

25:40

emotions and into these kind of

25:42

fantasy worlds or emotions

25:44

that aren't actually happening. And they think

25:46

that that's reality, um,

25:49

versus being able to sit with what

25:51

actually is happening. And so they

25:53

may then project those fantasy

25:56

emotions onto other people thinking that

25:58

that is what they feel, which

26:00

then can heat more shame and more withdrawal.

26:03

Um, so Leah,

26:06

how does this land on you?

27:21

That's a lot. I mean, I just having

27:24

you explain it, it's like the weight of

27:26

all of that. I feel it on my chest

27:28

right now. Like, um,

27:30

if I were to try to. Like,

27:32

describe that on a regular basis to how things

27:35

are going? Like, um, like

27:37

it just feels very heavy. Um,

27:39

it's not always very heavy, but

27:42

um, there are times where that shame

27:44

spiral, um, becomes

27:46

the only thing that I can see, and

27:48

that's when it's really scary. Um, and

27:51

so my thoughts, um, I,

27:54

I think depth is a word I've used

27:56

and overused. I actually was writing a book and

27:58

someone reviewed the manuscript and they're like, you can't

28:00

use the word deeply anymore, or

28:02

depth or deep, like to

28:05

cut that out. And I was like, I didn't even realize

28:07

I was doing that. Um,

28:09

Mm-hmm. Well, and that's what's interesting real quick, is

28:11

that each type has its own lexicon.

28:14

Their own, the own words they use a lot. So fours

28:16

use depth and beauty and authenticity

28:19

and uniqueness. And what, what I

28:21

say about that, and I would, sorry, cut you

28:23

off, but, so the fours will say they're

28:25

intellectual. The fives would say that they, um,

28:27

are intelligent and the sixes would say they're

28:30

smart they all kind

28:32

of mean the same thing. But each of those words

28:35

has a more specific meaning

28:37

that feels true for how they view

28:39

the world. And so depth

28:41

and beauty and longing really

28:43

captures a lot of the forward. Is

28:46

that true?

28:46

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. Longing

28:49

is a word that, um, I resonate with.

28:52

Constantly, like, I'm always thinking

28:54

there's something missing. Um,

28:56

or like, things are not quite the way

28:58

I want it to be or that it should be. So

29:00

I'm looking for, um, like

29:03

it's, it's good for pulling out like the

29:05

redemptive qualities and things or like, we're gonna,

29:07

we're gonna move forward from where we

29:09

are. But if I can't find

29:12

that, then I start to believe that nothing

29:14

is going well or can go well.

29:17

And, um, and most

29:19

often that is has to do with myself

29:21

and like who I am and

29:23

seeing that something's missing in me.

29:26

Um, I really re related to Brene

29:28

Brown's, um, description

29:30

or a definition of shame as being there's

29:33

something wrong with me. Uh,

29:35

because that, that's what resonates,

29:37

that's exactly how, um,

29:40

that's how I felt for a very long time. And

29:42

I can go there pretty quickly if

29:44

I'm struggling.

29:46

And then do you find yourself

29:49

moving out in the world when that happens?

29:51

Or retreating n word. And what? What's

29:53

the typical pattern?

29:55

I definitely withdraw. Um,

29:57

I will stop trying to put

29:59

myself forward, um, if

30:02

I'm struggling and if that shame is, is there.

30:04

So, um, it's a growth

30:06

step for me to move forward, to put myself

30:08

out in the world. And really I've learned

30:11

that like my body, I need to engage

30:13

my gut. I need to engage my

30:15

body physically in order to

30:17

move emotionally forward. So

30:19

whether that's exercise or I learned

30:21

from KJ Ramsey, um,

30:24

tapping or, you know, some sort

30:26

of something that gets me out

30:28

of my head and out of my heart so

30:31

that I can process it at a d at

30:33

a different level. Um, because

30:35

otherwise I will just sit, sit

30:37

in my head with the same thoughts

30:39

going on and on over and over again

30:42

if I'm struggling.

30:44

That's when you say that, Leo, I was watching a

30:46

TV series yesterday and

30:49

this guy was in a mirror. He was upset

30:51

cuz he had failed or had been betrayed

30:54

and he was contemptuous for himself

30:57

for allowing the betrayal to happen.

30:59

But he started slapping himself in the face.

31:01

And I thought, you know, there's another way to

31:04

engage in your body like that. You

31:06

could gently tap on your forehead,

31:09

you could go on a walk. I mean,

31:11

Yeah. Yeah.

31:13

there, there is something

31:15

physiological that can, that

31:17

needs to happen in

31:19

order to help us kind of get out

31:22

of these patterns of thinking

31:24

and feeling

31:26

I'm so grateful that God has given us

31:28

these bodies to be able to move forward in

31:30

that way. Even if it's just cold water or

31:32

something, stepping outside, changing

31:35

the environment like these things can shift

31:37

me

31:38

Yeah, we saw TikTok, uh, Beth

31:40

sent it to me cuz I think she assumes

31:43

that I'm always anxious. It's an assumption

31:45

though. Um, that's supposed to be a

31:47

joke, uh, because I typically

31:49

am, I don't even know what I'm anxious about

31:51

yet, but I'm sure

31:52

I am. Or you're anxious that you're not anxious.

31:54

Yes.

31:54

Oh, no, that'll

31:55

There you go.

31:56

that, that, yeah. Uh,

31:59

but it was like this guy was saying

32:01

like, Hey, if you're ever overwhelmed with anxiety,

32:04

put your face in a bowl of ice water

32:07

and it'll, it'll just knock you out of it.

32:10

I, no, it is ice water, so

32:12

why

32:12

not? Well, but it also, what it does, Like

32:15

physiologically. Yeah, that's right.

32:17

It, it kind of, and it's this, I think that's what people,

32:19

when they talk about grounding or you

32:21

know, like even meditating, like whether it just on scripture

32:23

or prayer or, you know, lots

32:25

of different things. It, it takes you

32:27

out of that spiral, that,

32:30

um, shame cycle or, uh,

32:33

what is it, analysis paralysis

32:35

or rudimentary. Mm-hmm. Um, and it gets

32:37

you out of that and you can then

32:40

kind of choose a different path of, of going. Now,

32:42

Leah,

32:42

how did your family relate to your

32:45

emotions?

32:46

up, uh, I would say

32:49

they didn't always understand. Um,

32:52

I don't necessarily know that

32:54

they knew what to do with my tears. Um,

32:56

so I learned to take

32:59

them into private. Um, and so oftentimes,

33:02

especially my teenage years, so maybe I

33:04

shouldn't say the whole time, but like

33:06

as a teenager, I would take that into

33:08

my bedroom and alone, um,

33:11

quite a lot. And, um,

33:13

so they didn't actually even really know

33:15

cause I really ended up dealing with depression and

33:17

they didn't know how, how hard I

33:19

was experiencing it at that

33:21

What types were your parents?

33:23

Type one and type five.

33:25

Oh, yeah.

33:26

So my mom's a one and my dad's a

33:27

Both very logical

33:28

types. Yeah. They may

33:29

very logical. Yeah. Yeah,

33:31

exactly. And so, um, yeah,

33:34

it's just like not the world they live in.

33:36

Right. What would've been helpful to hear

33:38

from them?

33:40

I think it would've been really helpful

33:42

to know that even if I'm having feelings,

33:45

like I belong and, um,

33:48

it's okay to cry, um,

33:51

because I didn't quite receive that.

33:53

Um, actually I

33:54

Well, so just having

33:56

I'm trying to be nice.

33:57

it excluded you.

33:59

yeah. It just, it, they didn't know what to do with it. I'm

34:01

the oldest of five girls as

34:03

well, so I saw their overwhelm,

34:05

I think, with that. And their parents were sick and,

34:08

um, and so I,

34:10

I kind of removed myself

34:12

eventually too, just kind of was like, all right, this

34:15

isn't, this isn't helpful

34:17

and I don't wanna add something else to there.

34:19

So I moved to the, like, the two in stress

34:22

Mm-hmm.

34:23

um, definitely just

34:25

pulled myself away

34:26

So even for yourself though, you had messages,

34:28

you were believing about that My emotions

34:31

are not helpful to the family.

34:32

right. Yes.

34:33

Wow. Yeah.

34:35

Yeah, and I really resonate with, I

34:37

am too much, not enough. Like

34:39

that flux is, um, that,

34:42

that statement, Beth, that you give is

34:45

really helpful in just helping

34:47

me even identify what am I experiencing

34:49

right now That's difficult. Like, am

34:52

I feeling like I'm being too much or, or

34:54

do I feel like I'm not enough? Like be,

34:56

that helps ground me as well

34:58

yeah. Now, Leah, do you read people and

35:01

around that idea that, oh,

35:03

they just gave me that, this look, so they

35:05

must think I'm too much, or

35:08

they just gave me this look. And even

35:10

before the situation even happens.

35:12

Yeah. I will anticipate things

35:14

going wrong, um, or, you know, people

35:17

not accepting me. Um, but then also

35:19

in the moment it's, I take it

35:21

very personally, a look or

35:23

something. If I'm really struggling,

35:25

um, I work to, to not do

35:27

that, but that can be an,

35:29

an

35:29

So, uh, as we kinda wrap this up,

35:32

you know, we kind of talked about different

35:34

ways that the gospel has really helped us

35:36

to get out of these states and how

35:38

we were created to reflect

35:41

Christ. And so the great thing about fours

35:43

is you guys are the bodybuilders of emotions,

35:45

meaning you, you can handle

35:48

a, a wide range of emotions.

35:51

You're not afraid of it. Um,

35:53

you move towards it, you know, so

35:55

when people are struggling and sorrowing

35:57

grief or even have highs, like

35:59

you are able to engage in that, you're not afraid

36:02

to go there, um, which is really

36:04

beautiful. And at the same time, what

36:06

we've noticed is those highs and lows

36:08

like you were just talking about, can be too much.

36:11

Um, cuz a lot of times when fours are feeling

36:13

they don't belong or they're flawed, they

36:15

will try to project a unique

36:18

image that hopefully others

36:20

will then be like, oh my gosh, that's, you

36:22

know, beautiful and like the word here,

36:24

captivating. And then they're like,

36:26

oh, you get me. Um, But

36:29

I would love to focus in on with

36:32

the, with emotions and how amazingly

36:36

God has equipped you to be in emotions.

36:39

What it also looked like for Christ to be in emotions.

36:41

So for fours, because we're humans

36:44

and you know, we're on this

36:46

side of heaven, those emotions

36:49

again, can be either genuine and true

36:51

and helpful to others, or they can be self-focused

36:54

and temperamental and overwhelming. Whereas

36:56

Christ is our great representative of

36:59

what it's like to deal with emotions and.

37:02

I think the Garden of Yosemite is such

37:04

a great place to see how

37:06

emotions are wonderful.

37:09

They're beautiful. They like, he

37:11

had so many emotions and

37:13

so much stress that he was sweating

37:16

blood. And so he didn't shy away from

37:18

it. He entered it fully. He could have

37:20

been like, I'm out. Like I don't wanna

37:22

do this. But he, not only

37:24

did he enter the emotions, but

37:27

he exhibited the highest quality of four,

37:29

which is equanimity. So we're not saying Jesus

37:31

is a four, but he just, he showed

37:33

emotional balance. So

37:36

that, what that means is we're not getting rid of

37:38

emotions, we're embracing

37:40

the emotions, but we're not allowing it to control

37:42

us. And that is what,

37:45

how Christ represented emotions

37:47

so well. Can you tell us like

37:50

what it's been like to move

37:53

into that healthier place to still

37:55

feel emotions but it not, um,

37:58

take hold of you?

38:01

Yeah, I spent a long time feeling like

38:03

my emotions were controlling me,

38:05

and when I learned the concept

38:08

of equanimity, it felt very freeing.

38:10

Like I can actually experience

38:12

the end of the emotion. So

38:14

rather than like, I'm learning to,

38:16

to experience my emotion and learn from it and

38:19

go, what is it trying to tell me here? What

38:21

am I, what's the message I'm hearing? Really taking

38:24

through aware, like I learned a different process

38:26

before learning aware with you,

38:29

um, but really

38:31

pretty awesome, so I don't know if you like,

38:33

very helpful. I use it. Yeah,

38:36

but just this, what am I feeling? What am

38:38

I thinking? What's the story I'm telling myself

38:40

and listening to my emotion?

38:43

Cuz that will tell me what's going

38:45

on rather than believing that

38:47

what my emotion is telling me is the

38:49

truth about my situation. So

38:51

the emotion, if I'm feeling like

38:54

everything's going wrong and. Um,

38:57

I'm believing people don't love me.

38:59

Well, maybe I'm stressed about

39:01

something that happened specifically.

39:03

Maybe I can explore that

39:05

a little bit with some curiosity and,

39:08

and see if it's actually

39:10

true. And usually I can find some sort

39:12

of pattern that, um, that

39:15

I've, I've known over time that,

39:17

oh, that's what's happening. I was triggered because

39:19

I felt like, um, I

39:21

felt like I really screwed something up with

39:23

work or, um, my husband

39:25

looked at me and probably didn't see

39:27

me the way I wanted him to. And so now I think

39:30

he doesn't love me. Well, really he does. So

39:32

like, just letting, just letting

39:34

myself, um, process

39:37

it and, and get to the end of it. And,

39:39

Um, not being afraid of it has been,

39:42

I think, a gift in my relationships

39:45

and just being able to be there with other people.

39:48

I, I say being able to sit with people

39:50

and their hard emotions is like a superpower for

39:52

me because I'm, I really

39:54

am not. I would prefer to

39:56

spend some more time in your harder emotions than

39:59

to hear how everything's going really well in your life

40:02

and, um, that,

40:04

that is a better experience for

40:07

Mm-hmm. Yeah, I just think, you

40:09

know, just thank you so much guys for just

40:11

being here, showing up, um,

40:13

being. Like real with

40:16

your struggles, but also where God shines,

40:18

you know, brightly through you and how it

40:20

blesses others. Um, and I hope

40:22

that, you know, our listeners have been able to really

40:25

gain a better understanding of the heart

40:27

triad and how you guys have similar, uh,

40:30

strengths around your feelings,

40:32

but also the liabilities that come with it,

40:34

um, and how shame pops up and your desire

40:37

to be seen in a very specific light. Um,

40:40

so hopefully this series has been really enlightening

40:42

for people,, well us where people can

40:44

find you guys as any Graham coaches.

40:47

Um, because there might be specific types

40:49

out there that are like, oh my goodness, I would love

40:51

to work with, uh, them, um,

40:54

as a coach. So Megan, let's start with you as

40:56

the type two. Uh, where can people find

40:58

you?

40:59

Yes, so I am in the Y E C

41:01

network coaches directory, so you can

41:03

find me there and then you can also

41:05

find me, um, really most

41:08

places. So Facebook, LinkedIn, TikTok,

41:10

and Instagram at Megan Jackson. My

41:13

name's there, M E G A N Jackson 4

41:16

44 is my handle.

41:17

Four. Four. Four. All right. Um,

41:19

and just for, we'll probably say this again,

41:22

but for the directory, for all of our

41:24

coaches, certified coaches, um,

41:26

that are in there, it's myenneagramcoach.com.

41:30

And then you would just search for their name. So

41:32

again, it's my Enneagram coach is where

41:34

the, um, coach's directory

41:37

is. All right. Mike, what about you?

41:39

Yeah. so you can find me in the

41:41

Y E C uh, coaches directory

41:43

as well. Um, and then,

41:46

uh, we have, uh, website cstl.org

41:49

where you could get in contact with me as well. Through

41:51

that.

41:51

Yeah, Mike, I, I was, I was a little surprised

41:54

whenever, earlier you mentioned that you didn't

41:56

have any social media accounts. that

41:59

part of just

42:00

Threeness? No. Uh, I,

42:02

that's actually very common for threes

42:04

and fours. Well, that's why I'm

42:05

asking, was it, is that mm-hmm.

42:07

It was, is there, did

42:10

you just never get into it or was that

42:12

sort of an intentional

42:15

So I have, uh, I have

42:18

LinkedIn and I have Facebook, but

42:20

they didn't, uh, serve the purposes

42:22

I needed, so I just got

42:24

rid of 'em. So I, I

42:26

only tap them when I need them, when I need to find

42:29

somebody.

42:30

Right. Gotcha.

42:31

Well, and so it's Mike Parrott, p

42:34

a r r e t T, and

42:36

you can look him up in the directory as well,

42:38

at myenneagramcoach.com. All

42:40

right, Leah, what about you?

42:42

I am also in the Y E C network

42:44

directory and you can also find me

42:47

at my new, which is leah ierson.sub.com.

42:51

Uh, I just started a new newsletter there or

42:53

you can find me on Instagram at

42:56

Compassionate underscore Enneagram. And

42:58

my, my CK is also called Compassionate

43:01

Enneagram, if you searched for that.

43:03

That's great. Oh, love that. Well,

43:05

thank you guys again, so much for not

43:07

just coming today, but really sharing with

43:10

us your, your heart, your feelings, your

43:12

emotions, and everything that goes into it. You

43:14

guys

43:14

are a gift. Thank you so much.