0:00

This episode contains subject matter that

0:02

may be disturbing to some listeners. Listener

0:05

discretion is advised.

0:46

The wait for two verdicts felt long.

0:49

When both juries were finished deliberating,

0:52

the court would notify the attorneys, family

0:54

members, and media representatives by email,

0:57

with only a 40-minute window to get back to the

0:59

courtroom. It was short

1:01

enough notice that leaving the area felt

1:04

risky, and with only 10 media

1:06

badges available to get a seat in the courtroom,

1:09

most of us decided to stay in the hallway.

1:12

Many of the reporters present

1:14

had other stories to work on,

1:16

typing furiously on their laptops and

1:19

contorting into impossible shapes to stay

1:21

near one of the few wall outlets.

1:24

But nobody was immune to the

1:26

suspense. Watch

1:40

the entire episode.

1:56

the

2:00

tea leaves and he's right. You can't read the tea

2:02

leaves and start guessing or

2:05

banking on how long a case is going to be out

2:07

to the jury. You know, whether it's going

2:09

to be a day or whether it's going to be a week,

2:11

you just have, you have no idea. So

2:13

you're just sitting there non-stop

2:16

anticipation and worry and dread

2:20

with some relief that it's,

2:22

you know, it's done and now you've hopefully

2:25

done everything you can and it's outside your control.

2:28

So it's kind of all those things that

2:29

just a lot of a

2:32

lot of different thoughts but something you have zero control

2:35

over and you're just you're just waiting

2:37

for a call.

2:38

Yeah, it just goes by very, very slowly.

2:43

Thursday, October 6th ticked by without

2:45

any news. Each time the jurors

2:47

walked down the hallway,

2:49

reporters watched them closely for clues.

2:52

Did they look happy? Were they somber?

2:55

Was this just a break or were they

2:57

done? Were they heading to lunch

3:00

or heading home for the day? Friday,

3:04

October 7th went by just as slowly

3:07

until an email went out just before noon

3:10

informing everyone that they needed to be in the courtroom

3:12

at 1.30 p.m. With no

3:15

information, we filed

3:17

in that afternoon and Judge O'Keefe

3:19

addressed the media. Late

3:21

this morning, I received information

3:24

that a particular member of the media has

3:26

been taking photos of members of Paul

3:28

Flores's jury without their

3:30

consent. Their safety

3:33

and security and privacy

3:35

is extremely important.

3:37

It will absolutely not be tolerated.

3:41

I was surprised to hear this because the members

3:43

of the media who have been here day in

3:45

and day out

3:46

have acted with the utmost professionalism.

3:49

I am going to give this individual the benefit

3:51

of the doubt. If it happens again,

3:54

the minimum sanction will be exclusion

3:57

from the rest of these hearings.

3:59

With that, ladies and gentlemen,

4:01

we are going to conclude. The

4:04

hearing lasted just four minutes, but

4:07

brought the week to a rattling close.

4:10

It was the first time any of us had been scolded

4:13

by Judge O'Keefe, and back in

4:15

the hallway, most of us sat silently,

4:18

hearts racing, wondering if by

4:20

some mistake or oversight, we

4:23

had been the one responsible without even knowing

4:25

it. Were we pointing our phones

4:27

in the wrong direction at the wrong time? After

4:30

months of careful and tedious note-taking,

4:33

was one of us going to unravel the whole thing?

4:35

Over

4:38

the next hour, only one person

4:40

spoke, insisting that the jurors

4:42

were being ridiculous and dramatic.

4:46

I would later learn that she was

4:48

the one who had photographed them. The

4:53

following Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday

4:56

were pre-arranged dark days put

4:58

on the calendar far in advance,

5:01

which meant that no court activity or

5:03

deliberations could take place.

5:06

When the two juries reconvened on

5:08

Thursday, October 13th,

5:10

we were called in for another surprise hearing.

5:13

Juror 926,

5:17

a woman on Ruben Flores's jury, had

5:19

reported to the judge that Juror 262,

5:23

a man on Ruben's jury, had told

5:25

her he spoke to his priest about the case

5:27

over the weekend.

5:29

This violated the jury rules reiterated

5:32

throughout the trial when Judge O'Keefe

5:34

reminded them at the end of each day

5:36

that they could not discuss details of the case

5:39

with anyone, including spiritual

5:42

advisors. The male

5:44

juror 262 was

5:46

called into the courtroom just after 1.30 and

5:49

asked to explain the incident.

5:51

He said he did not discuss any facts of

5:53

the case or details of the deliberation

5:56

with his priest.

5:57

He only asked for guidance while making the

5:59

case.

5:59

making a very difficult decision.

6:02

He insisted that he had been obeying all

6:04

of the judge's instructions and hadn't

6:07

even watched TV in months to

6:09

avoid hearing information about the case.

6:12

I know what I'm told," he said.

6:14

I've been on juries before.

6:17

262 was asked to rejoin the other

6:19

jurors, and 926 was

6:21

called back into the courtroom. She

6:24

explained, "...We were waiting outside

6:26

the courtroom, and he turned to me and told me

6:28

he was thinking about the case all week. He

6:31

said he talked to his priest in confession

6:33

and outside of confession. He

6:35

said his priest told him, someone is

6:37

up there,

6:38

watching over things." Judge

6:41

O'Keefe asked if her impression was

6:43

that he was speaking specifically about the

6:45

case.

6:47

926 responded, yes,

6:49

because I feel like he was anxious about making

6:51

a decision, one way or another. After

6:55

a seven-minute sidebar between the attorneys,

6:58

the male juror was brought back into the courtroom,

7:01

and Judge O'Keefe addressed him.

7:03

Juror 262, we

7:05

have received some conflicting information.

7:08

Our information indicates that you spoke to your

7:10

priest in and out of confession.

7:13

That puts me, frankly, in a situation

7:16

where I have to choose what to do.

7:19

262 raised his hand, looking

7:21

distraught and emotional. Can

7:24

I respond?

7:25

When I talked to my priest outside of confession,

7:28

we spoke about my father.

7:30

In confession, I told him I had a lot

7:32

on my mind.

7:33

There's people's lives at stake. Judge

7:36

O'Keefe looked sympathetic.

7:39

I understand. I would not

7:41

want to be sitting in your shoes right now,

7:43

because you have a difficult decision to make. As

7:46

the judge, my primary role

7:48

in duty is to make sure we have an impartial

7:51

trial. I have to respectfully

7:53

excuse you.

7:55

I do believe that what you're saying is accurate,

7:58

in order to make sure that there

7:59

no issues with whatever decision is made,

8:02

I have to respectfully make this choice."

8:06

Her voice cracked. It

8:08

pains me to have to do this.

8:10

Sometimes even the appearance of impropriety

8:13

is just as bad as actual impropriety.

8:17

After four months of service and

8:19

four days of deliberation,

8:21

juror 262 was excused,

8:24

and one of the remaining alternates was randomly

8:27

selected to fill his seat.

8:29

Judge O'Keefe instructed Rubin's jury

8:31

to begin deliberations over again, to

8:34

include the new juror in their entire

8:36

process. But it seems

8:38

like there wasn't a lot more deliberating to

8:40

do. Because Monday morning,

8:43

at 11.30am, Rubin's

8:46

jury would have a verdict.

8:50

Monday, October 17th,

8:52

a small audience stood in the courtroom,

8:54

including San Luis Obispo Sheriff Ian

8:56

Parkinson,

8:57

as Rubin's 12 jurors filed

9:00

in through a back door, taking their seats

9:02

in the jury box. Judge

9:04

O'Keefe addressed them. Has

9:07

the jury reached a verdict? The

9:09

youngest juror stood. Yes

9:12

ma'am. A sealed

9:14

envelope was passed to the court clerk and

9:17

placed into a lockbox, where it

9:19

would remain until Paul's jury finished deliberating,

9:22

when the two verdicts would be read back to back.

9:25

The clock was running a little faster

9:27

now. At any moment, Paul's

9:30

jury could reach a verdict, and the 40 minute

9:33

countdown would begin.

9:35

But defense attorney Robert Sanger had

9:38

other ideas. After

9:41

Rubin's jurors were released pending the second

9:43

verdict, a side door opened,

9:46

and Paul Flores was led into the courtroom

9:48

by a bailiff, taking his seat

9:50

next to his attorney.

9:53

Sanger addressed the court.

9:55

There's an issue that I would

9:57

not like to discuss, but I

9:59

think I have to. Apparently,

10:01

our jury was supposed to return at 9am. My

10:04

investigator, Ramona Messina,

10:07

was in the hallway.

10:08

She could see the jurors assembling shortly

10:11

after 9.

10:12

She observed Mr. Poverrell, Mr.

10:14

Camp,

10:15

Detective Cole, and Sheriff Parkinson

10:18

going into the courtroom. About

10:20

five minutes later, they came back into

10:22

the hallway when the Smart Family was there.

10:26

The Smart Family and a member of the prosecution

10:28

team hugged each other. Unfortunately,

10:32

it was in the presence of the jurors.

10:34

I think it's inappropriate. For this

10:36

to occur, I think is inappropriate.

10:39

I think I'm forced to make a motion for mistrial.

10:43

Poverrell shook his head, looking down at the

10:45

table.

10:47

This is news to me, he said. I

10:49

didn't know that Mr. Sanger was going to raise this

10:52

issue.

10:53

I will say that this family has waited 26 years

10:56

for this day.

10:57

I think a very small degree of compassion,

10:59

in my view, is entirely appropriate.

11:03

As we would later learn, Sheriff

11:05

Ian Parkinson had hugged Denise Smart

11:08

when he passed her in the hallway that morning.

11:11

He was not part of the prosecution team,

11:13

not a witness, and was not present

11:16

for the trial,

11:17

but had traveled up that morning in anticipation

11:20

of a verdict. It was the

11:22

first time the Smarts had seen him in several

11:24

months.

11:26

After they hugged, Denise Smart

11:28

then embraced Detective Clint Cole, who

11:31

was standing directly behind the Sheriff. After

11:34

hearing both sides, Judge O'Keefe

11:37

addressed Sanger,

11:39

Would you like the court's tentative ruling?

11:42

I'm going to respectfully deny the motion.

11:45

These jurors have been admonished daily to

11:47

disregard anything they learn outside

11:49

of testimony.

11:50

They have worked very hard to adhere to these

11:53

admonishments.

11:54

I understand why something like this would happen,

11:57

but in an abundance of caution, please

11:59

Please keep in mind that problems can arise like

12:02

this."

12:03

Sanger replied,

12:05

"...if that's the court's tentative ruling, may I respond?

12:08

I think it's more than an unfortunate occurrence.

12:11

Counsel on the other side of this table knows better. I

12:14

think it's unforgivable."

12:16

Mr. Pravrell's opening and closing arguments

12:18

were very emotional. This

12:20

is just more emotion.

12:22

We never know what's going to push the jury over the

12:24

top. If the motion is denied,

12:27

I ask the court to give an admonition to the jury

12:29

before they go for lunch.

12:31

We looked up at the clock. It

12:34

was 11.55am.

12:36

Judge O'Keefe called the attorneys for

12:38

a sidebar before announcing

12:40

her ruling.

12:42

I am respectfully going to deny the

12:44

motion for mistrial.

12:46

Later this afternoon, I will give the jurors

12:48

the same admonition I have given throughout the

12:51

trial.

12:52

At 2.50pm,

12:54

Paul's jurors were brought into the courtroom, and

12:56

Judge O'Keefe addressed them.

12:58

Ladies and gentlemen, I apologize for the

13:01

interruption in your deliberations.

13:03

You must not allow anything that happens outside

13:06

of the courtroom to affect your decision. With

13:08

that, I'll allow you to get back to deliberations.

13:13

The jurors were released after just one minute,

13:16

and looked around at each other, confused,

13:18

as they filed back into the deliberation

13:20

room.

13:22

Pravrell then addressed the court.

13:24

Your Honor,

13:25

counsel said this morning that a member of the prosecution

13:28

team had hugged a member of the family in this case.

13:31

It was not me,

13:32

and Investigator Camp didn't do it.

13:35

After an investigation,

13:36

I learned that Detective Cole gave Mrs. Smart

13:39

a brief hug. Obviously,

13:41

as a testifying witness, Detective

13:43

Cole should not have done that. I

13:46

will be filing a supplemental memo regarding

13:48

the duration and distance of the hug.

13:52

His humor seemed lost

13:54

on Sanger, who explained the situation

13:57

all over again. Ms. Messina

13:59

said she was

13:59

standing by the elevators, and when the group

14:02

came out, she saw Detective Cole and

14:04

the sheriff of the county, whose name

14:06

I just forgot, as well give

14:09

this person a hug. I don't

14:11

think this is a minor breach. The participants

14:14

in this trial, whether it's the sheriff of this

14:16

county or Detective Cole, should

14:18

know better.

14:19

With that, the issue was

14:22

over,

14:22

and everyone was excused just before 3pm.

14:26

For the next hour, we sat in

14:28

the hallway, waiting to see if today

14:31

was going to be the day. We

14:33

went back to the DA's office, and then you're just kind of waiting,

14:35

so it didn't get any better, it didn't

14:38

get any easier. You know, I guess maybe if

14:40

you thought it went

14:42

and made it 50% a little less

14:44

nervous, I don't know that that was the case, because now

14:46

you knew that there was a verdict

14:48

in one, you start thinking and

14:51

guessing and wondering. And

14:53

it's really not until that second verdict comes in

14:55

that then you have to kind of get your

14:58

game face on, for lack of a better word, and

15:00

get into court, and just

15:03

sit down and wait. So it's

15:05

an incredible amount of waiting, and again,

15:08

for something you have zero control over, which

15:10

is, for most of us, we don't like that.

15:12

So you're really at the mercy of 12 other

15:15

people times two, and

15:17

yeah, you just wait and

15:19

wait and wait. Paul's

15:22

jury left the deliberation room

15:24

at 4pm that day, without

15:26

a verdict. The

15:29

next morning, Tuesday, October

15:31

18th, we returned to the courthouse

15:34

for more waiting. Not

15:36

long after 11am, reporters

15:39

watched as Paul's jury was led out of the

15:41

deliberation room by a bailiff and

15:43

taken downstairs. The

15:46

jurors, who typically wore casual

15:48

attire to court, were instead

15:51

wearing dresses and collared

15:53

button-down shirts. For

15:55

the next half hour, the hallway

15:57

was a flurry of rumors and excitement.

15:59

until we all got the email

16:02

we'd been waiting for at 11.59 a.m.

16:06

Hello all media outlets. Jurors

16:09

have reached verdicts on the Flores's trials and

16:12

will be read at 1.30 p.m.

16:15

in Department 4.

16:17

Please make sure to check in and get your badge

16:19

prior to entering the courtroom. Several

16:23

reporters chose to skip lunch in

16:25

fear of losing their seat in the courtroom.

16:28

I was in line for badge number five,

16:31

but when the badges arrived and media

16:33

representatives took their places in line,

16:36

Dave Alley, a television reporter

16:38

for the Central Coast local CBS ABC

16:41

Fox affiliate, suggested

16:43

that I should take badge number one. For

16:46

four months the race to get one

16:48

of the ten media seats available in the courtroom

16:51

each day

16:52

had been tense and today

16:54

of all days was the most important

16:58

and even though I was fine with taking the badge I

17:00

had earned each reporter

17:02

in front of me stepped out of line ushering

17:05

me to the front

17:07

where I was handed badge number one. It

17:10

was a small symbolic gesture that

17:13

momentarily lit up the crowded hallway.

17:17

Then for the next hour and a half we

17:20

all went back to waiting anxiously. We

17:23

had heard about the verdicts I think an hour or so

17:26

before so we

17:29

had that hour hour and a half to

17:31

kind of ponder it's in. This is

17:33

it. Once the second verdict came in and we

17:36

knew that at that point we're gonna

17:38

have to appear in court sometime soon

17:40

then it kind of the butterfly start all over

17:42

again and you start thinking you

17:44

know what does this look like what's it gonna be but

17:47

then you also have to take care of some of the practical

17:49

stuff like make sure that people that

17:52

need to be contacted or contacted you know

17:55

using you know our victim

17:57

witness folks to let the smarts know.

18:00

We need to let our bosses know, make

18:02

sure that we're ready to go in court. We have everything

18:04

we need. So a lot of little logistics

18:06

to make sure that when we show back up

18:08

in the court that we're prepared as well.

18:11

The proceeding officially went on the record at 1

18:14

36 PM when judge O'Keefe asked

18:17

the four person to stand.

18:19

Madam four person has the jury

18:21

reached a verdict.

18:23

The woman replied,

18:25

yes, we have. A

18:27

yellow envelope was passed to a bailiff

18:30

who delivered it to the judge. She

18:33

tore open the seal and slid out

18:35

the verdict form inside, glancing

18:37

over it silently before handing

18:40

it to the clerk to read out loud. When

18:42

the judge read the verdict

18:44

and handed it to the clerk, I just felt

18:47

it was. Excuse

18:50

me. I just felt

18:52

it was going to be guilty. We,

18:55

the jury in the above entitled action,

18:58

find the defendant, Paul Reuben Flores,

19:01

guilty of murder in

19:03

the first degree.

19:06

Paul Flores, the convicted

19:08

murderer of Kristen smart, didn't

19:12

react. Defense

19:14

attorney Robert Sanger

19:15

nodded his head and asked to

19:17

pull the jury. Individually,

19:21

each juror was asked, is that your

19:23

true verdict as to count one?

19:26

One by one, they confidently

19:28

answered yes.

19:31

Members of the smart family and their friends started

19:34

to silently cry. Others

19:37

just smiled and put their arms around

19:39

each other. I think I could

19:41

best describe that

19:43

moment as that

19:45

portion of your life flashing in

19:47

front of you very quickly. So basically, you know,

19:50

for me, it was two years

19:52

and then specifically the last four or

19:54

so months, five months that we'd spent in Monterey

19:56

County flashing before me very quickly.

19:59

One of the more important things for me was to make sure

20:02

that I was paying attention and

20:04

my ears and my brain were processing

20:06

because you want to make sure what you're hearing is what

20:08

you're hearing. Like that entire

20:11

process of working the case and putting the case on

20:13

at Freelim to trial, just going

20:15

before your eyes so very quickly

20:17

and still wondering was there anything else we could have

20:20

done and then just waiting for

20:23

all those words to be read. I

20:25

remember it seemed like it was very slow, like

20:27

all the words leading up to whether it was

20:29

going to

20:29

be a guilty or not guilty. It

20:32

seemed like there were so many words being read and just

20:34

going so incredibly slow and you

20:37

want to get to it and get to it. And

20:39

then when I heard the words guilty,

20:42

it was an extreme sense of just

20:45

relief, satisfaction

20:48

in some ways and still a

20:50

little bit of sadness that

20:52

we still don't know where Kristen is. Sadness.

20:57

Because nothing can bring Kristen back.

21:01

But satisfaction. And I was glad

21:03

that my family was there to see it. Kristen's

21:07

voice had been heard, that the Jane Doe's voices

21:09

had been heard, that the smarts, all

21:11

of them, their family, their friends and all the

21:13

support people that have been going through this for

21:16

so long that their voices were heard.

21:18

So many people that did so much work advocating

21:21

for Kristen that worked so hard to

21:23

give a voice to someone who didn't have a voice had

21:26

come to fruition. Her voice was

21:28

heard that day and that was a good feeling. When

21:31

she said guilty, I turned

21:34

around and

21:36

winked at the sheriff and

21:38

there was so much that

21:40

we know about Paul that was never allowed

21:42

in court. The relief

21:44

isn't

21:47

just for Kristen. It's also

21:50

relief for a lot of other women

21:52

out there. And that

21:56

means a lot to those

21:58

of us.

21:59

that fight for

22:02

people that are victims of crime. And

22:05

there's people out there, if you're not sure whether

22:07

you should report something, there's people out there that

22:09

will fight for you. And

22:13

for the smarts, I'm so

22:15

happy. I mean, I'm

22:18

disappointed we didn't bring Kristin home. I

22:21

kind of feel like I let them down. But

22:27

I'm very happy that we got some justice for

22:29

them. Because

22:32

it's been a long, long time for them. And

22:36

they deserve it. Judge

22:41

O'Keefe

22:42

asked Sanger if Paul wanted to waive time

22:44

for sentencing.

22:46

Sanger responded,

22:47

We're willing to extend the time so we have

22:50

enough time to do what we need to do.

22:53

All parties agreed that sentencing would be

22:55

scheduled for December 9th, and the

22:57

courtroom was cleared for a 10-minute recess.

23:01

Outside of the courthouse, words

23:03

spread instantly across social media

23:06

and news sites. Productivity

23:08

slowed as workers huddled around

23:10

their phones and computers, or

23:13

hid out in restrooms, anxiously

23:15

refreshing their news feeds. Teachers

23:18

stopped their lessons to announce the verdict to

23:20

their students and explain the significance.

23:24

In Arroyo Grande, the long-time

23:26

home of Susan and Ruben Flores, shoppers

23:29

throughout the village cheered, and

23:31

in large stores like Walmart, shouts

23:34

of, He's guilty! rang

23:36

out across the aisles.

23:37

Without even a name or any

23:40

context, shoppers immediately

23:42

screamed and applauded. In

23:45

restaurants in Pismo Beach, Atascadero,

23:48

and Paso Robles. In doctor's

23:51

offices, in swimming pools.

23:54

People went out to their cars to call their friends,

23:57

their parents, and their kids.

23:59

people hiking or walking their dogs, stopped

24:02

to sit and cry. And

24:05

the ripples didn't stop there. People

24:08

celebrated at their desks in Canada,

24:11

on their honeymoon in Mexico, working

24:14

the night shift at a prison in Germany,

24:17

delivering aid in Ukraine, on

24:20

vacation in Italy, at

24:22

a nightclub in Sweden, lying

24:25

in bed in Iceland, in London,

24:28

in Scotland, Wales,

24:29

Australia.

24:33

The verdict resonated worldwide.

24:35

Justice for Kristen Smart, 26 years

24:39

and five months later, somehow

24:42

felt like justice for victims everywhere.

24:45

Justice for a woman who had initially

24:47

been brushed off as a runaway, judged

24:50

harshly for what she wore or

24:52

how much she'd had to drink. Justice

24:55

for a family who refused to give

24:58

up, even when it seemed like no

25:00

one was taking their plight seriously. After

25:03

two and a half decades of

25:05

painfully slow progress, lost

25:08

evidence, missed opportunities,

25:11

and a laundry list of failures from pretty

25:13

much everyone involved,

25:16

justice for a small community that

25:19

had adopted Kristen as one of their own, even

25:21

though most of them had only ever known her

25:24

as a face on a billboard. A

25:27

community that came back in full force

25:29

to speak up, to refuse

25:31

to allow a family to keep getting away with

25:34

murder in their own backyard, who

25:36

volunteered their businesses, their

25:38

homes, their donations, their

25:41

eyes and their ears, to making

25:43

this right.

25:45

It was a monumental occasion.

25:51

Susan Flores was not present.

25:54

Neither was Paul's sister, Ermelinda.

25:58

His aunts, uncles, or

26:00

cousins, co-workers or

26:03

friends. Only

26:05

his father, charged as an accessory

26:08

and legally obligated to be present,

26:10

was there to watch his son be taken back

26:13

into custody by a bailiff.

26:15

And ten minutes later, everyone

26:17

returned to the courtroom to see if Reuben would join

26:20

Paul in that small side room.

26:24

The foreperson on Reuben's jury

26:26

passed an envelope to the bailiff, who

26:29

delivered it to Judge O'Keeffe. She

26:31

opened it,

26:32

reading the form, before passing

26:34

it to the clerk to read out loud.

26:37

We the jury,

26:38

in the above entitled action, find

26:41

the defendant, Reuben Ricardo Flores,

26:44

not guilty. The

26:47

courtroom was quiet.

26:49

Defense attorney Harold Mesick

26:51

nodded his head. Several

26:53

others present shook their heads.

26:57

While the verdict was unanimous,

26:59

a few of Reuben's jurors looked

27:01

dismayed.

27:03

As they were polled, asked if this

27:05

was their true verdict,

27:07

one woman looked up at the ceiling,

27:09

tears rolling down her cheeks as

27:11

she said yes.

27:13

Another looked directly into Paveral's

27:16

eyes,

27:17

crying.

27:19

Judge O'Keeffe announced that Reuben Flores's

27:21

electronic ankle monitor would be

27:24

terminated immediately,

27:25

and he was free to go home,

27:28

back

27:28

to his house in Arroyo Grande, on

27:31

top of a six foot by four foot

27:33

anomaly in the soil. How

27:37

did two juries, sitting in the same

27:39

room for four months, come

27:41

to completely different conclusions? Different

27:44

jury, it's almost like a redo, and

27:47

that one ended up being the words were not

27:49

guilty. You know, disappointing and

27:51

sad. We believe that Reuben

27:54

was involved, so yeah, just disappointing

27:56

in terms of not being the outcome that

27:58

we thought we had proved, and that

27:59

we believe was

28:02

certainly provable. At the same

28:04

time, knowing that a

28:07

jury had put a lot of time in and they listened to everything,

28:11

it was the way that the process worked

28:13

and they hopefully did their

28:16

job as we did our job. But

28:19

certainly a disappointing outcome given

28:22

the fact that we truly believe that Rubin did

28:25

help his son. I was shocked.

28:29

I just kept thinking, wait a minute,

28:32

I was just shocked. I

28:36

didn't want to believe it. I had an audio

28:38

recorded statement of Rubin admitting that he committed

28:41

a felony to JT and Clint Cole.

28:43

I mean, all I kept hearing was they

28:46

didn't commit a felony I did. I

28:48

can only bring a case if I believe beyond a reasonable doubt

28:51

that the person is guilty and that I can prove

28:53

it. I believe I proved Rubin

28:55

Flores is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. They

28:58

came to a different conclusion. You know,

29:01

that's the decision they made. We have

29:02

to respect it, but I

29:04

totally disagree with it. It

29:06

felt sickening. I was extremely

29:09

disappointed,

29:10

satisfied that that Paul Flores was

29:12

convicted and disappointed that I was not able

29:14

to convict Rubin.

29:18

And with no answers,

29:19

everyone was left to speculate on what

29:22

had gone wrong.

29:24

At the very top of the list

29:26

was the fact that Rubin's jury had not

29:28

been allowed to view Paul Flores's DA

29:30

interview from 1996. As

29:34

an observer in the courtroom, I

29:36

perceived what I thought was a distinct change

29:38

in Paul's jury as they watched that

29:40

video, glancing down at Paul in

29:42

the courtroom to see his reactions, before

29:45

looking back up at the 19-year-old with

29:47

his arms crossed, his hands stretching

29:50

out the sleeves of his t-shirt while

29:52

he answered questions. It

29:55

was such a palpable sense that

29:57

I jotted down a prediction in the corner of my

29:59

notes that

29:59

day. If that video had played a large

30:02

part in Paul's jury finding

30:04

him guilty, maybe

30:23

not seeing it had played a large

30:25

part in Ruben's jury being unable to come

30:27

to the same conclusion.

30:29

Ruben's jury did, after all,

30:31

need to believe that Paul murdered Kristen

30:34

before they could make the inference that Ruben

30:36

helped him bury her body.

30:38

And they're in a tough spot because

30:40

they were told to base their decision

30:42

only on the evidence that they heard. And

30:45

they did not get to hear Paul's recorded

30:48

statements, and specifically his video statement

30:51

from 1996, where you can see his physicality

30:55

and his ability to do this, not

30:57

the kind of frail 45-year-old

30:59

that was portrayed in court.

31:02

So it made it real. It took

31:04

them back 26 years in a way that my

31:06

speaking never could.

31:09

Why wasn't Ruben's jury allowed to view

31:11

that video? And do you think that played a role in

31:13

their not guilty verdict? I think it

31:16

absolutely played a role in their not guilty verdict.

31:18

I think if they saw that video, they would have

31:20

come to a different decision. And that's because

31:22

of dueling rights. So Paul has a

31:24

Fifth Amendment right

31:25

not to testify. And Ruben

31:28

has a right to confront witnesses against him. And

31:30

throughout that interview, he talked about going

31:32

to his dad's house over the weekend and where he got

31:34

the black eye, was working on the truck at his dad's

31:36

house. And all of that implicates

31:39

Ruben directly. So if

31:41

I use Paul's statement against

31:43

Ruben, Ruben cannot cross-examine Paul

31:45

in that statement because he cannot call Paul to the

31:48

stand. So it's a way of preserving

31:50

their constitutional rights. It's correct.

31:52

It's fundamental to our system.

31:55

Judge O'Keefe was correct. It was unfortunate. It's

31:57

really heartbreaking. I wish Ruben's

31:59

could have seen it, and they

32:02

would have come to a different decision had they. I

32:06

also thought back to another significant moment

32:08

in the trial, when testimony

32:10

that seemed so damning for Ruben Flores

32:13

a year earlier

32:14

literally fell apart on the stand.

32:17

When his ex-tenant, David, who

32:19

spoke to me after he moved out of Ruben's house

32:22

in 2019, told a completely

32:24

different story than he had told me and

32:26

Detective Cole. In 2021,

32:30

he reported that he had lived in Ruben's house for

32:32

10 years and was completely convinced

32:35

that Ruben had helped Paul dispose of Kristen's

32:37

body.

32:38

He said he'd overheard phone calls where

32:41

Ruben spoke about Kristen and

32:43

that Ruben always referred to her as

32:45

a dirty slut.

32:47

He said he was never allowed under the deck at

32:49

Ruben's house and that a small door

32:51

that led underneath the house was always

32:54

kept locked and nobody

32:56

but Ruben had access. But

32:59

on the stand,

33:00

he insisted that he could only remember one

33:02

time that he had heard anyone say Kristen's

33:05

name, and he wasn't sure if it was

33:07

Kristen Smart they were talking about, and

33:10

he didn't even know if it was Ruben who had said it

33:13

because he didn't see the person who was talking.

33:16

Maybe it was Ruben. Maybe it was

33:18

somebody else using the phone in Ruben's house,

33:21

sitting in the other room where David couldn't see

33:23

him, talking about another Kristen,

33:26

calling her a dirty slut.

33:29

Even when he was shown a transcript of his

33:31

interview with Detective Cole, David

33:34

said he didn't remember it. He

33:36

was such a classic, I don't know

33:38

nothing, I didn't see nothing, I ain't

33:41

sayin' nothin' moment, that Paverel

33:43

took a long pause between questions before

33:46

asking, has anyone from the

33:48

defense team come to speak with you in the last year

33:50

or so?

33:52

For Ruben's jury, David

33:54

probably seemed like a confusing witness.

33:57

Why did the prosecution team even call him to

33:59

the stand? and if he had so little to

34:01

offer. Why do you think his

34:04

testimony changed? I don't

34:06

know for sure. I have not spoke

34:08

to David since then. I

34:10

was very, very

34:13

shocked,

34:14

as probably you were, at

34:16

his testimony compared to our

34:18

conversations. All I

34:20

know is he told the victim witness

34:22

advocate

34:23

that he's had COVID a couple

34:25

of times and it's messed with

34:27

his memory. I

34:30

do know that's a thing, but

34:33

I still find it slightly unusual

34:36

that his story was so different from

34:39

what he told you and I a year earlier

34:41

and what he testified to. I

34:44

wouldn't be surprised if there wasn't some

34:47

interference

34:48

from Reuben.

34:52

After each verdict was read,

34:54

Judge O'Keefe instructed the juries that they were

34:56

now free to speak to the press,

34:59

but must wait 90 days before

35:01

being paid for any interviews. The

35:04

jurors were released and followed

35:06

to their cars by reporters who were eager

35:08

to speak with them, being handed business

35:11

cards and packets as they were escorted

35:13

by bailiffs. Only

35:16

one juror

35:17

granted an interview that day,

35:19

a man on Reuben's jury

35:21

who spoke to Chloe Jones of the slow Tribune.

35:25

"'They

35:25

dug up his house and they didn't find nothing,' he

35:27

said. If I was in the other jury,

35:30

I wouldn't have changed my mind or had other

35:32

jurors try to convince me that he's guilty.

35:34

It would have been a hung jury."

35:37

He also revealed a more

35:39

shocking piece of information. On

35:42

Thursday, October 13th, 11 of

35:45

Reuben's jurors had decided that

35:47

they couldn't convict him, but

35:49

one juror

35:50

believed that Reuben was guilty and

35:53

refused to change his mind.

35:56

After the lunch break that day,

35:58

the dissenting juror number...

35:59

number 262 was

36:02

dismissed

36:03

for talking to his priest.

36:10

Once the rest of us were released,

36:12

I sat in the hallway for a while,

36:14

trying to avoid the chaos downstairs,

36:17

where dozens of news crews who

36:19

had not been present for the trial were

36:22

waiting with live TV cameras to

36:24

interview people as they exited the courthouse.

36:28

On the bench next to me,

36:29

a reporter from Court TV stopped Defense

36:32

Attorney Harold Meisik and Ruben Flores

36:35

to ask how they felt about the verdicts. I

36:38

love our system of justice.

36:41

The jury has rendered its verdict, so I might disagree

36:44

with it, but it is what it is. I

36:46

don't disagree with this one, obviously.

36:49

As I watched Ruben get on the elevator to

36:51

leave,

36:53

my head was spinning with a mix of emotions,

36:56

not really sure what I should be feeling. And

36:59

when I finally got up to leave a few minutes later,

37:01

I had another dizzying encounter.

37:04

After the verdicts were read, I was

37:07

very shaken in the hallway and I was going to walk

37:09

out and your prosecution team

37:11

was walking in the opposite direction. And

37:13

we had practiced for so many months. When

37:15

we pass each other, we are not going to look at each

37:17

other. And before I passed you,

37:20

you kind of stepped in front of me. You

37:22

put your arms around me. But I can't

37:24

remember for the life of me what you said to me. It's

37:27

kind of a blur. This was the first

37:29

moment that you and I really spoke

37:31

and connected. Do you recall

37:34

that moment? Oh, I recall that moment because

37:36

I had been waiting to convey to you

37:38

how much I appreciated.

37:40

I don't remember what I said,

37:43

but I'm not sure it matters because I

37:45

think you got what I was trying to convey.

37:52

It was a very meaningful moment for me. Good.

37:57

Me too. On

38:01

the front courthouse steps, Defense

38:04

Attorney Harold Measek and Ruben Flores

38:06

stood in front of a sea of reporters and cameras.

38:10

And even though he was only facing a maximum

38:12

of three years in prison, which

38:14

likely would have been reduced to just a year and

38:16

a half because of how long he'd been wearing an

38:18

ankle monitor,

38:20

while his son,

38:21

facing a life sentence,

38:23

had just been convicted of first-degree murder

38:26

when the first reporter asked how he was feeling.

38:30

Are you all tired now? Not relieved.

38:33

That was a lot of made-up

38:36

things.

38:37

Measek smiled proudly,

38:39

wearing sunglasses and patting

38:41

Ruben on the shoulder. This

38:43

is just like in the movies, huh?

38:45

He joked, looking around at all of the

38:47

cameras. Just like you did? The

38:50

two men fielded questions for the

38:52

next 15 minutes. Mr. Measek,

38:55

this is a big case for you. Is this the biggest

38:57

case you've won? Want

38:59

to take it on? No.

39:03

But it's the one I've been most invested

39:07

in on a personal level. Because

39:10

as you might remember, what I said at the very beginning

39:12

in this case, this man is not just

39:14

not guilty, he's absolutely innocent. And

39:17

today's verdict proved that.

39:19

So you can quibble with me on

39:22

the words there, but he never should have

39:24

been charged. And

39:26

I'm very pleased with the outcome. Love

39:28

our system of justice. Jury

39:31

is what it is. Jury has absolute power to

39:33

say whatever they want to say. But

39:35

in this particular case, they said not guilty, and I think

39:37

that's the right verdict.

39:39

What do you plan to do for the rest of

39:41

the day? What are you doing next? I

39:43

don't know. Going to Disneyland? No,

39:47

I don't know. I have no idea. Just

39:50

stop and sit.

39:52

Any messages from our Rio Grande community? I'll

39:58

speak on his behalf here. It would be nice to hear that. if

40:00

the community would actually

40:02

honor the presumption of innocence. If

40:04

you go online like I do frequently or

40:07

get the comments forwarded

40:09

to me, like my phone's blowing up right now, there

40:13

is just so much animosity towards

40:15

this man, his family, there's so much

40:17

hate and I

40:20

really have never understood it. I understand

40:22

that people are upset that Kristen is missing.

40:25

I understand they want a person to be responsible

40:27

for that. But the,

40:29

just the, you

40:32

know, let's lynch them, let's burn

40:34

them, let's hang them, let's kill them. I don't know

40:36

where that comes from in this country.

40:39

And I wish the community who still

40:41

feels that way would disabuse

40:43

themselves of those feelings.

40:46

An hour later, the media gathered

40:48

in the Monterey County District Attorney's office

40:51

for a press conference. Good afternoon,

40:53

everyone. I'm District Attorney Dan Dow

40:55

for San Luis Obispo County. And

40:58

we're just very pleased today that we can finally

41:01

acknowledge that after more than 26

41:03

years since her murder, and

41:07

being taken from her family, our

41:09

criminal and victim justice system has

41:12

now finally delivered justice for

41:14

Kristen.

41:16

Today's guilty verdict provides

41:18

some sense of justice for Kristen. Today,

41:22

justice delayed is not justice

41:24

denied. We're very grateful to

41:26

both juries for their hard work, for performing

41:28

their civic duty. They've shown

41:30

great commitment

41:32

to their duty by enduring the long

41:34

trial and reviewing the mountain

41:37

of evidence that was presented. At

41:39

this moment, Kristen Smart's father,

41:41

Mr. Stan Smart, would like to

41:44

make a statement on behalf of the family. Mr.

41:46

Smart. Thank you.

41:50

I'd like to make a comment that my wife

41:52

and I, we discussed in

41:54

briefly, and obviously,

41:57

you all recognize this.

41:59

Kristin there is no joy or happiness

42:02

in this verdict. After 26

42:05

years with today's split verdicts,

42:08

we learned that our quest for justice

42:10

for Kristin will continue. This

42:13

has been agonizingly long journey

42:16

with more downs than ups, but

42:19

we are grateful and appreciate

42:21

the diligence and energy of the two

42:24

juries to thoroughly review the facts

42:27

and reach their decisions.

42:29

Our faith in the justice system

42:32

has been renewed by their commitment

42:34

and effort.

42:36

We feel fortunate to

42:38

have relied on the professional talents

42:40

and the commitment of

42:43

the deputy district attorney Chris

42:45

Purvell, district attorney Dan

42:47

Dow, Beth Raub,

42:49

our victim witness advocate, and

42:52

paralegal Becky Crippie and

42:54

the stellar team of the San Luis

42:57

Obispo County District Attorney's Office.

43:01

We would also like to acknowledge Sheriff Ian

43:03

Parkinson, Detective Clint

43:05

Cole, District Attorney and Investigator

43:08

J.T. Camp, and the San

43:10

Luis Obispo Sheriff's Office for

43:13

their tireless commitment

43:15

to making Kristin a priority.

43:18

The steadfast efforts of this

43:20

team and so many others ultimately

43:22

made these trials possible.

43:26

Finally, we are also thankful

43:28

for the selfless contributions

43:31

of Chris Lambert, his

43:33

Your Own Backyard podcast

43:35

which brought not only information,

43:38

new information, and also

43:40

the needed light during our darkest

43:42

moments sharing Kristin's voice

43:45

and story. Our family

43:47

is comforted and strengthened

43:49

by the knowledge that Kristin continues

43:52

to be held in the hearts and memories

43:54

of so many people. We will

43:56

never be able to personally thank

43:59

everyone.

43:59

But please know our gratitude

44:02

and love goes out for each

44:04

of you who have been with us

44:06

for this long, overwhelming, and emotional

44:09

journey. We are forever stronger

44:11

together. Most

44:14

importantly, to our Christian almost

44:16

three decades ago,

44:18

our lives were irreparably

44:21

changed on the night

44:23

you disappeared. Know that

44:25

your spirit lives on

44:28

in each and every one of us. Not

44:31

a single day goes by that you

44:33

aren't missed, remembered, loved,

44:36

and celebrated. Thank

44:39

you.

44:40

We are very grateful to Sheriff Ian Parkinson.

44:43

Sheriff Parkinson. You

44:45

know, we talk about justice and

44:47

closure. The reality

44:50

is there is some form of justice today

44:54

holding the person responsible.

44:56

However, that doesn't change

44:59

the fact that their daughter

45:01

at 19 disappeared

45:03

and was murdered. And

45:06

they don't have the opportunity to see her graduate

45:09

from Cal Poly, be married,

45:12

have grandchildren for them. So

45:15

every year that goes by,

45:17

they continue to suffer for

45:19

this loss. This case

45:21

is not over. This case

45:23

will not be over

45:26

until Kristen is returned home. We

45:29

don't take a breath. We

45:31

do not put this aside. We

45:33

continue to pursue this until we

45:35

bring Kristen home to the family.

45:38

And that I remain committed

45:40

to.

45:42

Chris Probel, our All-Star.

45:44

I just want to start on behalf of

45:46

the entire Sloan County team. We

45:49

want to thank the Smart Family. They've

45:51

endured what no family should ever have

45:53

to go through. Their

45:55

perseverance has been an inspiration to

45:57

us when we retired.

45:59

When times were tough, we

46:02

said amongst ourselves, if they

46:04

can do it, then we can do it. So from the bottom

46:06

of our hearts, thank you for being our

46:08

inspiration and our rock. We

46:11

also are indebted to the

46:14

people of the San Luis Obispo County

46:16

community for their patience, for

46:18

their support, their support

46:20

of the Smart Family, and the ongoing investigation

46:24

and ultimately the prosecution effort. We're

46:27

thankful for specific caring individuals

46:29

such as Christopher Lambert, who

46:33

devoted countless hours in

46:35

order to keep Kristen's memory

46:38

alive in the case at the forefront of

46:40

the hearts and minds of people in our community.

46:43

His podcast helped to identify

46:46

additional new witnesses and the collection

46:48

of important evidence that was critical in

46:50

the prosecution of this case. To

46:53

us, when we looked at the evidence, it was clear that

46:55

Mr. Flores was an incredibly dangerous man

46:57

to be free in the community where

46:59

he

46:59

lived. Based on the testimony

47:02

of these does of what he did

47:04

to them, clearly now with this

47:06

verdict, we removed a predator from

47:08

the streets of that community in Los Angeles

47:10

County.

47:19

When I left the press conference that day, my

47:21

car packed with my belongings for the last time

47:24

as I prepared to leave Monterey County, I

47:27

couldn't help but feel that I had squandered my

47:29

opportunity to ever meet or

47:32

speak with the jurors.

47:34

After spending four months in the same room

47:36

with them,

47:37

it felt like the last day of school,

47:40

only I had never spoken to a single

47:42

one of them

47:43

and I didn't even know their names. While

47:46

the other media outlets were diligent and

47:48

even aggressive about passing out their contact

47:51

info to them,

47:52

I was sitting in my car,

47:54

emotionally overwhelmed.

47:57

I hoped they might listen to the podcast.

47:59

and find a way to get in touch with me on their own.

48:03

If nothing else,

48:04

I wanted to thank them. I

48:07

would later learn that some of them didn't even get

48:09

out of the parking lot before they had downloaded

48:12

the first episode. Others,

48:15

exhausted by the whole experience, waited

48:17

a little longer. But

48:19

by the following week, all

48:21

of them had started to listen

48:24

and started to talk about it as

48:27

a group.

48:28

They were collectively traumatized, but

48:31

they were also bonded. They

48:34

formed a group text thread and

48:36

stayed in touch. They

48:38

discussed the podcast together

48:39

and things they were learning about the case

48:42

now that they were allowed to Google it for the first

48:44

time. A few

48:46

weeks after their verdict, Paul's

48:48

jurors went out to dinner together, all 12

48:51

of them, and talked about the case

48:53

some more. Their jury

48:55

duty was over, but they

48:57

weren't finished.

48:58

And

49:00

during that dinner, one of them sent

49:02

me a message. Hello,

49:04

Chris. My fellow jurors

49:06

and I are just finishing up dinner. We

49:09

would like to take a trip down to San Luis Obispo,

49:12

and we're wondering if you could meet with us. We

49:15

feel that having our first media release with you

49:18

will help us heal and process everything

49:20

we've recently experienced.

49:23

They drove down as a group on a Sunday,

49:26

and we talked for hours,

49:29

many hours.

49:31

I edited that conversation down as much

49:33

as I could bring myself to

49:35

in the interest of keeping things somewhat concise

49:38

and digestible. It's

49:40

still long though.

49:42

What you're about to hear is less

49:44

of an interview

49:45

and more of a collective therapy session.

49:49

After months away from their homes and families,

49:52

months of not being able to talk about the case,

49:56

there was a lot of crying.

49:58

There was a lot of laughter.

49:59

plenty of sadness, and

50:02

a lot of relief. Here's

50:05

me and seven of the real-life

50:07

human beings that convicted

50:09

Paul Flores, plus one alternate,

50:13

meeting for the first time for

50:15

a roundtable discussion about the

50:17

trial. I'm

50:20

glad I'm here. I'm glad we're here together and

50:23

being able to like confront it and be able to talk

50:25

about it. You know, a lot

50:27

of us are mothers

50:29

and we have sons, and

50:32

when we were chosen or

50:35

selected for this, we

50:37

wanted to be able to be

50:39

on fairgrounds, you know, and

50:42

be unbiased. Cause that

50:44

is a question that you're asked in front of everybody

50:46

in the court. For me, I

50:48

would never want to say yes about

50:50

something if it wasn't true. I

50:53

took that

50:54

very seriously. I was

50:56

a mother in that stand for Kristen and

50:58

for Paul.

50:59

And that's how I walked in on

51:01

that cause I didn't know anything about the case. We've

51:05

grown really close because we did have

51:07

a lot of time together and

51:09

we got to know each other and we respect each other

51:12

greatly. We consider

51:14

each other's feelings and thoughts.

51:16

It was difficult. We couldn't

51:19

talk about it to our family. We couldn't talk about it to

51:21

our spouse, our friends, our

51:23

counselor, you know, even to each

51:25

other and the priest, they lives, you know. It

51:28

was a little ridiculous and. Can

51:30

you talk to dogs? Yeah. But

51:33

I was gonna say. About like the media

51:36

really quick is that we all,

51:38

we talked about it before we walked out. I'm so glad. 86, I

51:42

believe, was the one that brought it up to us. Hey guys,

51:44

wait a second. What do you think? Should

51:46

we talk to anybody? Should we not talk to anybody? And

51:49

so we all decided together as a team, we respected

51:52

each other enough. We consider each other's feelings.

51:56

And privacy and whatnot enough. And

51:58

the family, the smart family.

51:59

enough to be like, guys, we all

52:02

want to be on the same page. Whatever we do, we want to do

52:04

together. Even if not all of us

52:06

can be here, we want to be still on the same

52:08

page. Is it OK if we can all

52:11

do it when? Right away, we

52:13

all said we wanted to just talk to you.

52:16

Yeah. Yeah. And we all met

52:18

together. We had a dinner just to confirm

52:20

that that's what we wanted to do because

52:22

there's so many people that reached out to us, so many

52:24

options that we had. And it's like

52:26

it's not, it's you, it's

52:29

the family, and it's

52:29

your following where it's just, there

52:32

needs to be a conclusion. There needs to be closure.

52:35

At the same time, this is the beginning

52:38

because there's still a lot that needs to be

52:40

done. So this is our start, for

52:43

sure. Like we felt like it

52:45

was important to be here with you

52:47

first before anywhere

52:49

else. And that means a lot

52:51

to me. Thank you again for driving down here for this.

52:54

Can we first go around the room and can

52:57

each of you just give us your age and

52:59

what you do for a living?

53:01

I will say thank you for believing

53:04

I was under 30. I

53:11

just had turned 35, and

53:14

I do photography full time. I

53:16

am 36 years old. I

53:19

work

53:20

with behavioral health. I

53:23

am 50, and I am an

53:25

HR analyst. I am 29

53:28

years young, and I'm

53:30

an administrative aide for Santa Cruz

53:33

County for the Board of Supervisors.

53:35

I was 28 during

53:38

selections, but throughout the trial, turned 29.

53:42

I know. And then I'm actually

53:44

an operations manager

53:47

for a bank. I turned 57

53:49

during the trial, and

53:52

I'm a business owner. And so?

53:55

I am a dental assistant. I

53:58

just wanted to work with you. like that. Okay,

54:01

and I'll

54:01

say he looks 30. I'm juror 310 and I was

54:03

an alternate for

54:11

Paul Flores's trial.

54:12

I'm a one-person office with 425 doctors that

54:14

span three counties.

54:17

I was biting at the bits to get back to my

54:19

job.

54:19

Can you talk about when you first got your jury

54:22

summons in the mail? From that point

54:24

forward, just what was the jury selection

54:26

process like? Were any of you desperate

54:28

to get out of

54:29

it? When the slip came, I

54:32

can try to blame it on mom brain. I literally

54:36

forgot that it

54:38

was the day of that I was supposed

54:40

to call the night prior and

54:43

I, you know, read that form and I thought

54:45

I was gonna like get in trouble, get fined,

54:48

arrested. Like I didn't know.

54:51

I went online

54:53

and it said it gave you one time

54:55

reschedule. So I did that online.

54:58

They sent me a new date. Okay, great.

55:00

Put it on my counter, put it on my phone, put an alarm.

55:03

You know, I'm not gonna miss this again. And

55:06

it was like the evening and my husband was like, didn't

55:08

you have jury duty today? Did you call? Did you do

55:10

anything about it? And I was like,

55:13

oh no, like I really am gonna get arrested

55:15

this time. You know, something is gonna happen this

55:17

time. So I called and

55:19

the lady on the phone

55:21

at the courthouse, she's like,

55:23

oh, don't worry. I'll just reschedule you. But guess

55:25

what? You're actually gonna have to show up this time. That

55:28

was the day that they were doing selections

55:30

for Paul's jury. I

55:32

was on the alternate. I was the next one.

55:34

I was gonna be 13. And

55:38

on Paul's jury, chair three,

55:40

she stood up and she

55:42

said, your honor, because

55:44

they were about to swear everybody in. And she said, your

55:46

honor, I do have something to say

55:48

and you do have it in your podcast about that.

55:51

And she's like, I did make up my mind.

55:53

And she's like, how come you didn't tell me earlier? The

55:56

judge said that. And

55:58

she's like, well, I just.

55:59

I just figured out, like

56:02

I just inside, you know,

56:04

saw myself thought process that

56:06

I did make my decision. And

56:08

so then they walked back, they

56:10

came out, they dismissed her.

56:12

And then they put me in her chair

56:14

and sworn me in. And

56:17

I was like, did I just become the twelfth

56:19

juror? I didn't want to do it. I did not

56:22

want to do it. So not

56:24

to get too personal, but in March

56:26

I just had hip replacement.

56:28

And so I had been off work from

56:31

March to June. So

56:34

I went back to work for two weeks. And

56:36

then I said, oh, by the way, I have

56:38

to go to jury duty. I'll be back.

56:41

So I tried to use my hip surgery

56:44

as an excuse. I work for the city of Marina.

56:46

I'm friends with chief of police and, you

56:48

know, and that didn't work. My mom

56:50

just had a big fall and was in ICU

56:53

and I tried that and that didn't work. And

56:56

so they wanted me for some reason.

56:58

I don't know why. Because I didn't

57:00

want to, I'm very thankful for the jury

57:04

group that I had because it made it

57:06

an easier process.

57:09

I didn't want to do it, but I'm glad that

57:11

it was with you guys. When I got the

57:13

summons, I was like, how do I get out

57:15

of this? But I was afraid that

57:17

I was going to get arrested. So I was like, I

57:19

better go. So

57:22

I show up and there

57:24

was a room full of

57:26

people. So many people, I made

57:28

good friends with the lady next to me and she was like, I

57:31

hope you don't get picked. I'm like, you too.

57:33

See you later, girl. But

57:35

when we made it to the next

57:38

step, there was a sheet and

57:40

you had to like fit the questionnaire. I

57:42

got called back and I forget

57:45

the name of the process where they ask you questions.

57:48

But I remember thinking to myself because I

57:50

heard from people like they're going to grill you and they're

57:52

going to ask you so many questions. And then that's how they

57:54

choose who they want to be. And they never

57:57

asked me anything. I was just sitting there

57:59

and I was one.

57:59

out of 1,500 and I was just like, this

58:02

was so easy. Like, why isn't this process so

58:04

much harder? I

58:06

remember looking at the trial

58:08

schedule on the wall and I was like, four months, that

58:11

sucks for whoever is going to get selected. And

58:14

then joke was on me because

58:16

when we ended up getting selected, they

58:18

were like, oh, you know, you're going to have to be here for four

58:20

months. I'm like, oh my god, that's our

58:22

schedule. I got my summons during

58:25

my time that I was still out on FMLA.

58:28

I was still baby bonding.

58:30

You know, I just had my baby. And I said,

58:33

oh, great. Now I have to go in

58:35

for this. And I told my boss, I'm

58:37

like, hey, I got summon for jury duty. I'm going

58:40

to show you my paper so you know. So I'm going to take off

58:42

this day. And he's like,

58:43

that's today, sweetie. And I

58:45

looked at him and I'm like, holy

58:49

mother of god. I said, I'm the word, but we're going to be, we're

58:52

going to use nice words here. I

58:55

said, oh my god, what happens? And he's up. You

58:57

might get arrested. Just make sure it's not here at work. I've

59:00

never been in trouble. I'm a good girl.

59:03

Why did this happen to me? Not just that,

59:05

but I was still breastfeeding you guys. That

59:07

was the hardest thing for me. And I

59:09

thought, well, if I'm going to tell the judge one thing is I'm

59:11

still breastfeeding. You know, I need to breastfeed that

59:13

little one until he's good

59:15

to go. And he's not good to go. So that was

59:17

going to be my excuse to get out.

59:19

And I'm like, OK. Somebody did call

59:21

me and they're like, oh, we'll reschedule for you. You get another

59:23

summons in the mail. Just make sure to watch out for

59:25

this one. And make sure you do come in if you can't.

59:28

And I told her, I'm like, hey, what about if

59:30

I'm still breastfeeding? And she flat out tells me, we

59:32

have breastfeeding rooms. Don't worry. And I

59:34

said, I'm not worried. So

59:38

this is my third jury I served. The

59:41

other two were not even

59:43

close as being as long as this.

59:45

I think one was three days

59:47

and one was a week. And what

59:50

a difference. I want to

59:53

say that was like my third time receiving

59:55

the summons paper. The first

59:58

two times I've got it, it was always like.

59:59

Oh, call the night before they'll tell us to show

1:00:02

up or not. Never had to go. This

1:00:04

third time, I did. Walking into

1:00:06

that big jury room and seeing all these people.

1:00:09

My first thought was like, why is it so intense?

1:00:12

It's so quiet.

1:00:15

Where's the TV? Where they really

1:00:17

got us facing this wall? The

1:00:20

whole time I'm sitting there on those chairs, my boss

1:00:22

is texting me because I play a big role at my

1:00:24

job. She's texting me. She's

1:00:26

like, so what's going on? Are

1:00:29

you going to get there? Are you going to go? She's

1:00:31

like, find a way to get out of it. I was like, well, I'm sitting

1:00:33

here and we're not doing anything. No one's

1:00:35

talking to us. I'm looking at the clock. I was

1:00:37

like, I'll let you know what happens.

1:00:39

The next day, I'm sitting

1:00:41

there again, texting her. She's like, so

1:00:44

did you get picked? I

1:00:46

kind of left her on red. I called her

1:00:48

and I was like, I have news. She's

1:00:51

like, no, don't tell me you got picked.

1:00:53

I was like, I did. I did.

1:00:56

I couldn't get out of it, even though I didn't even

1:00:59

try to get out of it.

1:01:02

I didn't think I was going to get picked, but

1:01:05

I had kind of

1:01:07

a lull in my life. My kids were

1:01:09

raised. I didn't really have any real

1:01:12

reason, no breastfeeding. No, you

1:01:14

know, that was all over. And

1:01:17

I work at night. I work on weekends. I just

1:01:19

rearrange my schedule. So I really didn't have any reason

1:01:22

to be out of it. The

1:01:24

week before, I was listening to

1:01:27

a message from my pastor and

1:01:29

he was saying, like, you know what, if you're feeling a

1:01:32

little depression in your

1:01:32

life, maybe it's because you're not giving back to your community.

1:01:36

And volunteerism is a big deal.

1:01:39

Maybe give back, lift your spirits

1:01:41

that way. So I was in

1:01:43

favor of partaking in this

1:01:45

from the get go.

1:01:46

Me, I just,

1:01:49

last jury selection, like

1:01:51

two years ago, I was making

1:01:54

excuses to be off the

1:01:56

jury. I got away with it.

1:01:59

And then... I guess this is the time

1:02:01

I was thinking that I need to

1:02:03

be a jury because I got away with

1:02:06

last time and I just go

1:02:08

with the flow. Whatever happens, it

1:02:10

happens. I end up being

1:02:12

a juror.

1:02:13

That's it. Well, are you happy that

1:02:16

you're with us? I know. Yes. I

1:02:19

know. Like only among the 1500, three

1:02:23

of only guys was in

1:02:25

that jury. I

1:02:28

guess I'm lucky because I'm one

1:02:30

of the guys. Povell was asking

1:02:32

me,

1:02:33

are you going to be biased? He

1:02:35

gave me an example

1:02:37

on the

1:02:39

baseball game or something. It's

1:02:41

what you see on the game

1:02:42

on the baseball. And I don't know really

1:02:45

about baseball, but I saw

1:02:47

as I am not biased. That's the

1:02:49

main thing.

1:02:50

Let's talk about your first impressions. When

1:02:52

you first saw the prosecution team,

1:02:55

the defense attorneys, the defendants themselves,

1:02:57

the media, what were your first impressions

1:03:00

when you walked into that courtroom?

1:03:02

The first time I walked in, I kind of

1:03:05

got an odd vibe.

1:03:07

I didn't know who anybody was. And

1:03:10

it's just like, why

1:03:12

is there no expression? As

1:03:15

the process went on, as the trial went on,

1:03:17

where

1:03:18

you're finally getting more pieces and

1:03:20

understanding through the process, it's

1:03:22

like you're given a puzzle, but they take

1:03:26

away like 10 pieces. So

1:03:29

it's like you're trying to figure it out on your

1:03:31

own because I wasn't trying to take in anything

1:03:34

from either attorney, defense or prosecution.

1:03:36

I tried to go by what the judge said and she said,

1:03:39

just take what was on the witness stand. So

1:03:41

that's how I felt. I honest,

1:03:44

the last person I will say, the

1:03:46

judge, I was just, I admired her.

1:03:49

So I was grateful

1:03:51

that I was even able to be there

1:03:53

in her presence in a sense. Would

1:03:57

I want to do this again? No, never again.

1:03:59

And I think for me it was walking

1:04:02

in the first day and then you know how they were opening

1:04:05

the door for us and they were all in a

1:04:07

row just looking at us walk in.

1:04:09

I'm like who are

1:04:11

these people? Okay they're all in

1:04:13

suits. Okay they're all looking at me. Alright

1:04:16

look down walk away. Just get to

1:04:18

your seat and walk away. My job is just

1:04:20

to observe and obtain all

1:04:22

the information given to me. I'm like okay give it to me

1:04:24

just give it to me. I'm ready to listen. Not

1:04:26

really sometimes I was really tired but

1:04:28

we were there we were all there

1:04:29

we all did it. When I went into

1:04:32

the courtroom because I have two

1:04:34

sons that are similar age but

1:04:37

then as I looked

1:04:39

around in the courtroom and I started listening

1:04:42

to testimonies and different things then

1:04:44

I realized I have several

1:04:46

nieces you know so there

1:04:48

is no bias for me on one way or the other.

1:04:52

I kept saying I feel like the perfect juror

1:04:54

to myself because I didn't have any

1:04:56

preconceived notions or messages

1:05:00

and my husband

1:05:01

is he's been on jury

1:05:03

duty several times and he's so good about not

1:05:06

talking not letting anyone talk

1:05:08

you know. Because sometimes it's really

1:05:11

hard you come home and you hear

1:05:13

some things and there was a couple

1:05:15

of really intense days and

1:05:18

he'd just say honey it's when it's

1:05:20

over we'll talk when it's over we'll talk.

1:05:22

It was very intimidating to walk into

1:05:24

that

1:05:25

building and everybody just staring

1:05:27

at you as you're walking in. It

1:05:30

was like okay this is real this

1:05:33

is on me

1:05:34

and the fellow jurors and

1:05:37

we've got to take this seriously and

1:05:40

this is the rest of this is my life for

1:05:42

the next three or four months just being

1:05:44

there and being present and just

1:05:47

taking a step back

1:05:49

and breathe. I too agree

1:05:51

that it was very intimidating. My

1:05:54

face actually did this really weird thing when

1:05:56

like per valor singer would like

1:05:59

because

1:05:59

I was.

1:05:59

right in the middle and front

1:06:02

row up and centered. When

1:06:04

they would like come in

1:06:06

front of us and they would like look directly

1:06:08

in my eyes like my face would twitch I'm like where's

1:06:11

where why is my body doing this really weird thing

1:06:13

that it's never done before it was very

1:06:15

very weird.

1:06:17

I will say that I did this

1:06:19

thing or I had this strategy where I would look

1:06:21

everybody in their eyes I looked at

1:06:23

Paul a lot and I know I don't know

1:06:26

if he felt my presence but it's like whenever the witnesses

1:06:28

were up there or whoever was speaking I

1:06:30

wanted to see what his reactions were because I feel like

1:06:32

actions speak louder than words and I feel

1:06:34

like I did catch a lot of things that maybe a

1:06:36

lot of people miss whether it was the gulps

1:06:39

that he was taking or like what when

1:06:41

he would go like what was the topic of conversation

1:06:43

or but I I

1:06:46

did notice that a lot as well. I

1:06:49

tend to just smile all throughout like

1:06:51

that's just my personality and so it's like

1:06:54

what like what are they thinking of us versus

1:06:57

us what are we thinking about them too it's

1:06:59

like you don't want to give off this impression

1:07:01

that you're not taking it seriously

1:07:03

or I don't know there's just so

1:07:05

many emotions so many emotions. Walking

1:07:08

into the courtroom my first thought

1:07:11

was like this isn't like the movies

1:07:14

you know I didn't know who was who the

1:07:17

courtroom was so small everyone

1:07:19

in the front sharing tables like you

1:07:22

know in the movies they have you know a table

1:07:24

for you know what the one group

1:07:26

and then another table for the other group and this was

1:07:29

it was not it I couldn't really you know pick out

1:07:31

who was who or people

1:07:33

in the front you know wearing these suits and stuff and

1:07:35

you know like you guys were saying I mean it is intimidating

1:07:38

and I wore a mask throughout

1:07:40

the whole trial not

1:07:43

just because of COVID but also because you know facial

1:07:45

expressions I feel like I tend to make facial expressions

1:07:48

so also like hiding that too.

1:07:50

I did find it very intimidating at first to

1:07:52

walk in there and have all those faces and suits staring

1:07:55

back at you

1:07:56

but I also felt very important. I

1:07:59

thought They put him in an oversized suit

1:08:02

to make him look down and out. I

1:08:05

felt like that was an obvious thing

1:08:07

that they did that he

1:08:09

looked like poor me. I

1:08:12

didn't like the fact that he was in a mask

1:08:14

the whole time, but I get it. And

1:08:18

Mr. Misik, I didn't get much out of, and now I

1:08:20

know why, because I don't think he really worked very

1:08:22

hard

1:08:23

for his client. Said some

1:08:25

flippant stuff at the microphone rather

1:08:27

than being serious. He would just be like,

1:08:29

hi, just wanted to say hi. That

1:08:31

wasn't appreciated by me. I didn't like that.

1:08:34

It was a murder trial, and I feel like his

1:08:36

little jokes were good in

1:08:38

that direction. Yeah,

1:08:41

he wasn't taking it seriously because he was like, oh, I'm going to get

1:08:44

out of this one way or another. My client's going to be found

1:08:46

guilty. Then he gets to walk out, and if my client's

1:08:49

found innocent, he gets to walk out. I mean,

1:08:51

that was, I think, horrible.

1:08:55

Mr. Sanger's jokes, I

1:08:58

felt it was a tactic that

1:09:00

he used to try to soften us in

1:09:02

some kind of way. He was very

1:09:05

unorganized, and that added to

1:09:07

it. I couldn't tell if that was a strategy

1:09:11

of his, but I didn't like that that would have been a strategy,

1:09:13

or it wasn't a strategy. If you were really unprepared,

1:09:16

shame on you. And if it's a strategy, this is really

1:09:18

bad because you think we're idiots. So

1:09:21

that was annoying

1:09:22

because I thought they were underestimating

1:09:25

us. You didn't get over on me,

1:09:27

Mr. Sanger. The

1:09:29

private investigator of Sanger

1:09:31

is always looking at me. I don't know if he's looking

1:09:34

at me or he's looking at you or

1:09:36

the jury. Yeah, because I sat right next to

1:09:38

you. Yes, it's like I

1:09:41

am. That's why I don't

1:09:43

even look at the audience.

1:09:45

I'm just looking at the judge and the

1:09:48

witness.

1:09:50

Oh, too.

1:09:51

And on our first recess,

1:09:54

because I don't know anybody, I just go

1:09:56

to the room, you know, the

1:09:59

one that has a lot of people. of seats because

1:10:01

I don't know anybody. I just go to that

1:10:04

one of the seats and look at

1:10:06

my cell phone. That first day

1:10:08

I don't know anybody so I just and

1:10:10

then as days pass by I

1:10:12

get to know the other

1:10:14

guy. I don't

1:10:16

know. It's really

1:10:20

number number four I think

1:10:23

I got close and then I said little

1:10:25

by little I get to know everybody. When

1:10:27

you first heard that there was a podcast about the

1:10:29

case which was probably brought up on day one,

1:10:32

what did you think about that? What were your initial thoughts

1:10:35

and when did you put two and two together that I

1:10:37

was the person in the courtroom who had made

1:10:39

the podcast? And now that you're done

1:10:41

and a lot of you have listened,

1:10:44

what are your thoughts on it now? Well

1:10:46

I know since Singer was the one that brought

1:10:49

you up so much in the podcast I kind

1:10:51

of had his impression and I think maybe that's why

1:10:54

he mentioned it so much so we could have his impression.

1:10:56

Somebody's meddling.

1:10:58

Why are they doing it? Because that's what we were

1:11:00

given. But as time

1:11:02

went on and he kept trying to build this picture

1:11:05

of you I just started being able

1:11:08

to see especially with the other witnesses

1:11:10

that were saying we're just trying to bring

1:11:12

her home. We're just trying to have justice.

1:11:15

It's like I started being

1:11:17

able to grow and grow and respect for

1:11:19

you and what you did. And even

1:11:22

though not knowing anything that was on it

1:11:24

we were able to write notes but

1:11:27

we couldn't take any of the notes.

1:11:28

We couldn't take pictures of the notes. We couldn't bring any of the

1:11:30

notes with us. So

1:11:32

knowing that somebody is

1:11:34

there,

1:11:35

somebody's keeping track.

1:11:37

You weren't there one day I believe or something like

1:11:39

that. And I noticed

1:11:41

because I'm looking right and I'm like okay

1:11:43

the guy with the beard, the cool

1:11:45

guy, it's got to be the podcaster.

1:11:48

It's got to be him. He looks pretty

1:11:50

cool, pretty chill. And

1:11:52

then I look and it says your own backyard

1:11:56

on your media tag. I was like okay

1:11:59

that's got to be him.

1:11:59

But you're so, you know, professional

1:12:02

and serious. I literally

1:12:04

only saw you once glance at me. So

1:12:07

catching everything you did, I feel, is

1:12:09

pretty amazing. Especially

1:12:12

from the back where you sat, you couldn't see,

1:12:15

in our opinion, anybody's faces

1:12:17

were what we saw. But

1:12:19

you were able to catch a lot more than we

1:12:22

could have possibly imagined that you were

1:12:24

able to do. To be able to finally hear

1:12:26

it and hear how professional it was, the

1:12:29

production and everything.

1:12:29

And I commend

1:12:32

you for that. Without you, we wouldn't

1:12:34

be here. I'm on episode

1:12:37

two. But hearing

1:12:39

from you guys, I really need

1:12:41

to listen to it.

1:12:43

You were supposed to be here with us. I

1:12:46

wish I was there too. The first

1:12:49

time your podcast was mentioned,

1:12:51

I remember writing in my notes, podcast

1:12:54

question mark. And

1:12:57

every time it was mentioned, I would go back and I would

1:12:59

put like a little tally like, okay, like this, this

1:13:02

thing must be like really important that

1:13:04

you know, it's, it's coming up so many

1:13:06

times. And so I

1:13:08

never listened to podcasts ever to any

1:13:11

podcast. Like it's not my, it's not my thing.

1:13:14

It took me a while to listen

1:13:16

to your podcast. I feel like after

1:13:18

the verdict was read, I just needed some

1:13:21

time to

1:13:22

not necessarily forget about it. But

1:13:24

just to take a breather. Once I started

1:13:27

listening to the podcast, it

1:13:29

was a whirlwind of emotions. I

1:13:31

feel like,

1:13:33

yes, people say justice was served, but I

1:13:35

feel like we were robbed of information during

1:13:38

the trial. I get why things

1:13:40

weren't brought forward for multiple

1:13:42

reasons. But yeah, I feel like

1:13:44

that's the hardest thing that I'm battling right

1:13:46

now is Ruben still out there,

1:13:49

Susan still out there. And God forbid

1:13:52

something happens to someone

1:13:54

else. But I feel

1:13:57

confident that we did make the right decision,

1:13:59

but I just feel. for all the victims that

1:14:01

came forward and for those that didn't

1:14:03

out there. We're with

1:14:05

you, we hear you, and it doesn't

1:14:08

stop here. It doesn't and I want

1:14:10

to thank you for doing the work that you've

1:14:13

done because it's you you were the

1:14:15

voice for so many people that

1:14:16

couldn't speak or come forward and that's

1:14:18

really hard but. I remember Singer

1:14:21

saying yeah he's here in the courtroom

1:14:23

too and I just remember looking and there was

1:14:25

just something about you I was like you look like a podcaster

1:14:29

like I feel like I pinned you out like

1:14:31

right from the get and then

1:14:33

also too you kind of turned red a little bit I

1:14:35

was like oh but you were just so

1:14:37

like you composed you poker face

1:14:40

so professional and so

1:14:42

eloquently spoken and

1:14:44

I just you're amazing

1:14:48

and I feel like this is you were you were meant to

1:14:50

do the things that you're doing and I feel

1:14:52

like I'm getting

1:14:55

emotional. So I knew there

1:14:57

was a podcast going in I just didn't know

1:14:59

your name I didn't know anything about it

1:15:02

I never realized until I saw your picture when

1:15:04

I watched afterwards I started you know

1:15:06

on television I don't know if it was Netflix

1:15:09

or somewhere and I realized oh

1:15:11

my gosh he was sat in the back of the courtroom

1:15:13

the entire time so

1:15:16

that's what I realized who you were. For me I

1:15:18

couldn't listen to your podcast it took me

1:15:20

I think a week and a half of

1:15:23

thinking about it should I listen to it should

1:15:25

I not listen to it and

1:15:28

I'm like I'm gonna listen to it I want more information

1:15:30

I feel like I was needing a little bit

1:15:32

more so I am so

1:15:34

thankful I did in

1:15:36

the end you answered a

1:15:38

lot of my questions I had

1:15:40

but I also came back with some yeah

1:15:43

Mr. Sanger brought it up a lot I would

1:15:47

turn and look and I'm like he's writing on top

1:15:49

of his back but he needs like a little

1:15:51

desk oh my gosh I should tell him that there's little desk

1:15:53

at a hobby lobby just kidding

1:15:55

no don't go shopping right now okay but yeah

1:15:57

there's little portable ones the day I

1:15:59

After the trial ended, I think it was a Wednesday.

1:16:02

I was like, oh, don't have to go to trial.

1:16:04

What am I going to do? It's 10.30.

1:16:08

And I think it was 10.30 the next day that

1:16:11

I pulled up your podcast and started listening.

1:16:14

Second or third day, I just had

1:16:17

a moment of breaking down and crying, saying,

1:16:19

thank god we didn't go in

1:16:21

any other direction and let someone like this

1:16:23

be out and stronger.

1:16:26

He would have been stronger than ever as a predator.

1:16:30

It's an emotional thing to find somebody guilty

1:16:32

of murder in the first degree.

1:16:35

And I think it should be. It

1:16:38

was the right verdict. We

1:16:41

weren't given everything that

1:16:44

we needed to see and that we could have

1:16:47

possibly found this person in

1:16:50

another direction. The verdict could have gone another way

1:16:52

if we

1:16:54

didn't have the right people. So

1:16:56

for that, I'm very grateful. I'm grateful for the judge

1:16:59

that we got, the

1:17:01

perfect judge. I'm grateful

1:17:03

for the men on the jury. Grateful

1:17:08

to Chris for

1:17:10

making it obvious to us

1:17:12

later that the criminal justice system

1:17:15

allows a lot of information

1:17:17

to be kept from juries.

1:17:20

And we saw through it, even

1:17:23

with the lack of information that we were actually given.

1:17:26

We finished Tuesday. But

1:17:29

I think I started the podcast on Thursday.

1:17:32

And I listened to it Thursday,

1:17:34

Friday, Saturday, all of them.

1:17:37

And I was

1:17:39

comfortable with my decision.

1:17:42

But once I listened to the podcast,

1:17:45

it solidified the decision that

1:17:48

there is no doubt in my mind that

1:17:50

we made the correct decision. And

1:17:53

I also wanted to hear it to see

1:17:56

how much of the podcast

1:17:58

was true.

1:17:59

versus what was fantasy,

1:18:03

for lack of better words. And

1:18:05

when I listened to the trial, everything

1:18:07

was verbatim. So I knew

1:18:10

that the podcast had to be pretty

1:18:12

dang close to the truth, too. So

1:18:15

it just helps solidify my thought

1:18:17

and my conclusion on

1:18:19

the verdict.

1:18:20

We not only didn't get a lot of information,

1:18:22

but just in general, there's a lot of information

1:18:24

held from jurors. And so

1:18:27

this actually makes me personally want

1:18:29

to advocate for jurors. And

1:18:31

also just for mental

1:18:34

health reasons, because I

1:18:36

know it wasn't just me that had some breakdowns

1:18:39

and some hard times and some nightmares.

1:18:42

And that

1:18:43

was just stuff that we experienced, that we went through.

1:18:46

I can't imagine what other people have to go through, what

1:18:48

other victims have gone through, what other jurors have

1:18:50

gone through. It was difficult. Why don't you have a mic?

1:18:52

Let's talk about that moment. Because

1:18:54

that was... We're listening

1:18:56

to the archaeologists testify, and

1:18:59

they're pulling up these pictures on the projector from

1:19:01

the dig under Ruben's deck and the

1:19:03

soil staining they found there. And all of a

1:19:05

sudden, we just hear this sound, and

1:19:07

nobody knew where it was coming from. And when

1:19:09

we realized a juror was crying, and

1:19:12

then they dismissed us for lunch, we all just

1:19:14

walked out into the hallway like,

1:19:16

what just happened? And several

1:19:18

of you, I think, had tears in your eyes when you walked

1:19:20

past us. So what led to

1:19:22

that reaction, and what were you thinking

1:19:24

and feeling?

1:19:25

My first thought was obviously

1:19:28

on it, and

1:19:30

I didn't mean to cause any kind

1:19:32

of

1:19:34

problem. So the

1:19:36

reason why I got to that point

1:19:39

was... And I did look at the judge,

1:19:42

and I think she knew. I

1:19:44

was already kind of experiencing some

1:19:47

difficult time processing it, the staining, the soil.

1:19:49

I was like, this could be anything. This

1:19:53

could be the avocado trees. It

1:19:56

could be the root. It could be from...

1:19:59

know, I think I was asking questions about

1:20:02

if they even had a septic system. Could

1:20:04

it be some sort of leak? It could

1:20:06

be anything. But when she

1:20:08

was there and she was confirming

1:20:11

over and over and over again that of

1:20:15

what it was, what it resembled, what

1:20:18

she saw in her history, her expertise,

1:20:21

and describing it and then

1:20:24

what looked like it could have been a body.

1:20:27

And that's when I'm like,

1:20:29

I feel like this couldn't be anything else.

1:20:33

I'm thinking innocent, you

1:20:35

know, until proven guilty. And at that moment is

1:20:37

when I'm like, that's when I looked

1:20:39

up at the clock. I was like,

1:20:41

five more minutes. I can hold this

1:20:44

five more minutes. I don't,

1:20:46

I don't, I couldn't use my hands at that

1:20:48

moment

1:20:49

to write a note. Can we please have a break? Because

1:20:51

I believe it was going to be lunch, right? And

1:20:54

I looked up at the clock five more minutes until noon.

1:20:56

I can do this. And then

1:20:59

I'm looking up and my coach are right

1:21:01

next to me.

1:21:03

He saw me looking up

1:21:05

and I think he said to me, at

1:21:07

first I thought you were laughing

1:21:10

because I couldn't see your face

1:21:12

because I was like hiding my face. And

1:21:15

he was like, you know, I believe he

1:21:17

can like calm down or, or whatever.

1:21:22

And he just saw me start bawling

1:21:25

and then my jurors in front like

1:21:27

turned around and like throw me tissue. Yeah.

1:21:32

And

1:21:33

I was, I just, I

1:21:35

slowly, my hearing just blacked

1:21:38

out. It became extremely real

1:21:40

for me

1:21:41

and it became pretty traumatic,

1:21:43

I guess at that moment. And

1:21:46

I couldn't do anything except

1:21:48

I couldn't hold it back anymore. Like it just

1:21:51

came out. I'm like five

1:21:53

more minutes, body shut up. Like,

1:21:55

you know, and it wouldn't stop. I just

1:21:58

like, and I couldn't control it.

1:21:59

and you guys all supported me, and

1:22:02

I felt like extremely supported

1:22:04

and loved, and I was

1:22:06

like,

1:22:07

nothing's happening, and it felt like in my mind,

1:22:10

like a lot of time was going by and I'm like bawling,

1:22:13

and so that's why I said, your honor,

1:22:15

I need a break. She said, okay, it looks like

1:22:17

we need a, to break earlier

1:22:19

or something for lunch. I

1:22:21

just started crying and I couldn't

1:22:24

control myself. Like I said, hard

1:22:26

on my sleeve, everybody knows how I'm feeling, but

1:22:29

me personally, I knew I didn't make up my

1:22:31

mind. I knew that I could still be

1:22:33

unbiased.

1:22:35

I could still weigh it properly by

1:22:37

logic and facts and

1:22:40

the law, and so I knew it was

1:22:42

taking a little bit of

1:22:45

a toll on me, but at the same time, it

1:22:47

made me feel good that it was, we're

1:22:50

human, and we care about this,

1:22:52

and we wanna find truth and facts and

1:22:55

do the right thing, and

1:22:57

it's not easy.

1:22:58

Because I feel like a lot of people think this

1:23:00

is something easy or doesn't matter to us,

1:23:03

but it does, it affects us personally,

1:23:06

deeply, and our families, it affects everything.

1:23:09

So I

1:23:09

think I was just one little part to

1:23:12

show how maybe all of us were feeling,

1:23:14

you know? I'm just a little more expressive about it.

1:23:17

Yeah. I

1:23:19

was clearly looking at the refinement

1:23:22

of this human body up against

1:23:24

a stone foundation, but I'm

1:23:27

thinking,

1:23:28

these people, their

1:23:30

daughters been buried. Yeah,

1:23:32

that was a hard one. Let's talk

1:23:35

about Susan Flores. How did you

1:23:37

feel about the fact that she only attended the opening

1:23:39

and closing arguments and skipped

1:23:41

the three months of testimony? And then on

1:23:43

the few occasions that you did see her there, what

1:23:46

were your impressions of her?

1:23:47

As a mom, I would

1:23:49

wanna be there for my son, even

1:23:52

if you and your husband aren't getting along.

1:23:54

You're separated, fine, but

1:23:57

your son, you need to be there. I

1:24:00

was like, I was weird. I thought it was

1:24:02

very strange that the mom was not there. If

1:24:05

I feel that my child is innocent, I'm

1:24:07

going to be there every single day. Even if I feel

1:24:09

like my child is guilty. I mean,

1:24:12

I personally would feel like I'm going to do

1:24:14

everything I can to support you be here, but you

1:24:16

need to pay for your consequences. I'm not going to hide

1:24:18

anything or cover anything for you. You know,

1:24:20

so either way

1:24:22

as a mom. Yeah. Yeah.

1:24:24

So that was very odd. And it was so

1:24:26

telling when she wasn't there for the, um,

1:24:29

when the verdict was being read, she made things

1:24:31

like really uncomfortable, you know, she would stare

1:24:33

at us the whole time. I don't know

1:24:36

how many times I've walked eyes with her and

1:24:38

how she made that statement to one of

1:24:40

the bailiffs about how supposedly the

1:24:42

jurors didn't let her sit down on the bench or something.

1:24:44

And it's like, you're, this is the, like, this, what, the

1:24:46

second time you're here and you're trying to, you know, throw

1:24:49

the case out or something because we didn't let you sit with us or

1:24:51

something. I don't

1:24:53

even think we knew who she was at first. She

1:24:56

was just a woman standing in the hall that didn't choose

1:24:58

to take a bench seat. They just were glaring.

1:25:01

Like I felt like watching glaring

1:25:03

at us and we couldn't look at them, you know, like

1:25:05

we're, but it's just like, you feel like this.

1:25:08

And I looked up and he, I just saw

1:25:10

her just staring at, just staring at us. And

1:25:12

I'm like, what are your perspectives

1:25:15

on the job that Sanger did as an attorney?

1:25:17

The way that he presented the case. What did

1:25:19

you take away from his style?

1:25:22

From his perspective, he's got to be

1:25:24

here doing the best that he can. Um,

1:25:27

and seeing him again, fumbling around

1:25:29

with papers, cannot find something. Can

1:25:32

I use this? Provel saying,

1:25:34

I

1:25:35

already gave it to you. And these little

1:25:37

arguments going on and him going like

1:25:39

a kid stomping his foot, pushing

1:25:41

down his arms, like, no,

1:25:44

or you know, whatever it was, like, I

1:25:46

told you this, and it just seemed very,

1:25:48

it was so immature. That

1:25:51

it felt like it was on purpose. So

1:25:54

that's what I was like. Okay. If it's on purpose,

1:25:56

he can't find stuff. He's fumbling around. He

1:25:58

he's, he's.

1:25:59

wants to make us think that maybe

1:26:02

this is just ridiculous, like there's no

1:26:04

point to it, there's not enough evidence, why are we here,

1:26:07

this doesn't make any sense. And

1:26:09

so, you know, I try to hear

1:26:12

and weigh things from his perspective. And

1:26:14

when the verdict was being read, and I remember

1:26:16

the judge passing it to the clerk, she

1:26:19

read it and, you know, she asked, you

1:26:21

know, Singer asked, do you want the defendant to stand

1:26:24

while it's being read? And they stood up and

1:26:26

when

1:26:27

she read it, his

1:26:29

head went

1:26:32

up and down, like a yes kind of

1:26:34

motion and I'm like, okay,

1:26:36

that's some confirmation for me because he already

1:26:38

knew, like you said, he did knew, he did know. Prevel

1:26:41

just seems so

1:26:42

with it and everything he

1:26:45

said, you're just like, yeah,

1:26:47

that makes sense, that's

1:26:49

it, that's,

1:26:51

this is why we're here. Listening

1:26:54

to Singer and

1:26:56

having to listen to his closing

1:26:59

statements, I

1:27:01

would have to move

1:27:03

a lot in my seat. I

1:27:05

don't know if it was his monotone voice,

1:27:08

I don't know if it's just because I was just so

1:27:10

annoyed with the way he presented

1:27:12

himself, how he treated the

1:27:15

witnesses. He was picking

1:27:17

on everything, everything,

1:27:20

nothing that they did was good enough. And

1:27:23

I get that that's his job,

1:27:25

I get that he has to do that, but

1:27:27

it was to the point that it was ridiculous.

1:27:30

When he was up there talking to

1:27:32

the witnesses and stuff, it was always like, oh,

1:27:35

we'll come back to that.

1:27:36

And he never would, he

1:27:38

never would. So it was almost like

1:27:40

a lot of the things that he was doing was

1:27:42

as a game or he wasn't taking it seriously.

1:27:45

And you know, being in the front row of the jurors,

1:27:47

you know, you can hear all his little side marks

1:27:49

and stuff. So when

1:27:52

Prevel started having

1:27:55

the witnesses write on the exhibits with

1:27:57

a marker, and I remember

1:27:59

Singer making a comment like, oh, since

1:28:01

we're doing that now. Yeah. So

1:28:05

he was just being super sarcastic, or

1:28:07

being a child would never prevail,

1:28:09

would make an objection or something. Singer

1:28:12

would just be like, no, it's not. No,

1:28:14

it's not. Under his breath. And

1:28:17

it's like, really?

1:28:18

What are you doing? And

1:28:21

just so unorganized, never having

1:28:23

a pen, going

1:28:25

through his papers. Yes. You go

1:28:28

back for a damn mic. And

1:28:31

Paul turning on the screen phone. Yeah,

1:28:33

and that's what I didn't get. Why are you having

1:28:35

him do this for you? Your painting.

1:28:38

Or all his little jokes, he wouldn't

1:28:41

take it seriously. When they're showing up the dig

1:28:43

sites and stuff, I guess there was

1:28:45

a little leaf, and he made a comment saying,

1:28:47

what was it? A gremlin? A gremlin,

1:28:49

yes. Really? But

1:28:52

got really, really mad at the lady

1:28:54

for making the cake. Cake. Chop the

1:28:56

cake.

1:28:57

Why are you coming? You get so frustrated

1:28:59

over that. But he can make these stupid

1:29:02

little comments on gremlins. Whatever.

1:29:06

I felt when Mr. Prevel was talking, he was

1:29:08

talking to me. He was making

1:29:10

me aware. He had my full-on

1:29:13

attention. He was telling

1:29:15

me, listen to what I'm telling you. But

1:29:17

when Mr. Singer came on, I was,

1:29:20

oh, God, here we go. And

1:29:23

it was dreadful sometimes listening,

1:29:26

because

1:29:27

sometimes when he spoke, it didn't make sense.

1:29:30

Him not coming back to things and thinking,

1:29:33

it was OK with us to tell us you're going to

1:29:35

say something and not come back to it was not

1:29:37

OK. And his

1:29:39

little side remarks were very

1:29:42

irritating. Like at the last

1:29:44

one that got me good was when he said, your

1:29:46

hunter, 780. And

1:29:49

she said, overruled. And he

1:29:51

said, OK, 781. It was

1:29:53

kind of funny, but really irritating, because

1:29:55

this is a murder trial. When

1:29:57

Singer is speaking.

1:30:00

It makes me sleepy. And then

1:30:02

I... When

1:30:04

we go out, we go

1:30:07

to the basement. And that's

1:30:09

my thing.

1:30:11

I got to a point where

1:30:13

I really would dread the fact

1:30:15

that he was going to... It was

1:30:18

going to be his time to get up. And

1:30:20

the whole thing with not finding his

1:30:23

files being unorganized, but

1:30:26

maybe that was an act,

1:30:29

but I don't think so. I just think

1:30:31

that he spent most of his time

1:30:34

just making innuendos about

1:30:36

how wrong other people were trying

1:30:39

to discredit witnesses without

1:30:41

cause.

1:30:42

Did anyone get contacted by

1:30:44

Sanger's office? Yes, yes. Yep.

1:30:47

I didn't call them back. I think

1:30:49

the message that was left was, we'd

1:30:52

like to interview you to see how we can

1:30:54

do better next time. My

1:30:56

husband goes, well, are you going to call him? And

1:30:59

I said, well, when I tell

1:31:00

him, have an innocent client...

1:31:06

Let's talk about Jennifer, because she was probably

1:31:08

the most divisive witness. She's

1:31:10

the one who said Paul told her that he had buried

1:31:13

Kristen under the ramp in Wozna. But

1:31:15

she also said on the stand that I had asked her not

1:31:17

to tell the sheriff's department that we

1:31:19

spoke. So how did you feel about Jennifer

1:31:22

as a witness? And what did you make of

1:31:24

her information during deliberations? Or did it even

1:31:26

come up? Oh, yeah. We talked about it.

1:31:28

It was hard to read her. I

1:31:31

took what she said lightly. I didn't

1:31:34

take what she said to sway

1:31:37

my decision, per se. Not

1:31:39

because her affiliation, not because

1:31:41

of her past history

1:31:44

with the drugs or whatever, but

1:31:46

she did break down saying

1:31:49

she felt bad because she could

1:31:51

have saved all of this 20-some

1:31:53

odd years ago or whatever. But

1:31:56

yeah, that was my stance with her. I believed

1:31:59

her testimony.

1:31:59

I believed what she heard. I saw

1:32:02

the fear in her. She's been through a lot,

1:32:04

you know, in her life. I don't know her.

1:32:08

You know, and I don't know all the

1:32:10

stuff about the prospects. I don't know about the

1:32:12

meeting and whatnot and the drone and the

1:32:15

truck and all this stuff. But I could see

1:32:17

the hurt and the pain in her

1:32:20

when she said, I wish I could have,

1:32:22

you know,

1:32:24

said this so much sooner, but I was

1:32:26

a coward. One thing that I noticed

1:32:28

about Jennifer is when

1:32:31

she talked about when she met Paul

1:32:34

on the skating.

1:32:36

Remember, he got scared and then he

1:32:39

wants to leave and then he doesn't want

1:32:41

to go back again. For me, he's

1:32:44

really scared about what he talked

1:32:46

about when he saw Paul.

1:32:49

He even told

1:32:51

his boyfriend not to tell about what

1:32:53

he told him.

1:32:54

So does that mean that you feel like you can trust her

1:32:56

as a witness? Yes, because she

1:32:59

knows and if he told

1:33:01

you that, you won't forget

1:33:03

it. I feel like there was really nothing that she

1:33:06

could lie about. She wasn't there to get a reward.

1:33:08

I feel like the way she held herself,

1:33:11

I was very impressed. Listening to her, I was

1:33:13

like, wow, like good for you. Like you, the

1:33:16

way you held yourself, I believed in everything

1:33:18

that she said. When it came to

1:33:20

speaking about you, I didn't really think much

1:33:23

of it. I wasn't like, oh, he's lying or she's

1:33:25

lying. I didn't think

1:33:28

too much into that. But what she said,

1:33:30

I really did believe that

1:33:33

Paul told her the things that

1:33:34

he did. And I feel

1:33:37

like whatever she said was truthful. I

1:33:39

did think her testimony was important

1:33:43

and credible. I

1:33:45

like how she interacted with Mr. Sanger.

1:33:48

I think she was actually super

1:33:51

articulate with the way she answered

1:33:54

his questions and actually schooled

1:33:56

him a couple of times. He asked her a question and then

1:33:58

he tried to flip it around.

1:33:59

She set him straight, so I like that. But

1:34:03

when it came to the

1:34:06

discussion about Chris Lambert, I thought

1:34:09

it was possibly a

1:34:11

game of telephone that maybe between

1:34:13

her and Justin and

1:34:15

Chris, there was a misunderstanding. So

1:34:18

if any of you had a chance

1:34:18

now to talk to any of Ruben's jurors to

1:34:21

help us understand why they

1:34:23

found him not guilty? No. I didn't

1:34:25

ask. You want to pass it right to her? I

1:34:28

didn't speak with the foreman. And

1:34:32

her words were simply that they just didn't

1:34:34

have enough. This is what she expressed.

1:34:36

There wasn't enough. When I spoke to

1:34:39

her, and we were talking about it,

1:34:41

she told me that

1:34:43

a lot of them know that he was guilty, but

1:34:45

the evidence wasn't there to back it up. She's

1:34:47

like, I'm pretty sure he's guilty. But whatever

1:34:50

they brought to them as evidence didn't

1:34:52

match up to what they can say. So that's why

1:34:54

they said, not guilty. She

1:34:56

just said, in my mind, I thought he was

1:34:58

guilty. But I couldn't say guilty because

1:35:00

the evidence wasn't there.

1:35:02

I wanted to ask you specifically, what

1:35:04

was it like being an alternate juror, having

1:35:07

to sit through this long jury selection and

1:35:09

then months and months of testimony, and

1:35:11

then ultimately not getting to have any say

1:35:14

in the deliberations of the verdict? What

1:35:16

was that like?

1:35:17

Well, it's kind of bittersweet. At

1:35:19

one hand, I was relieved that I didn't

1:35:21

have to go into deliberations. But

1:35:24

on the other hand, I was

1:35:28

anxious to listen and dive into all

1:35:30

of the details, just

1:35:33

as a refresher. But

1:35:35

I did. I just

1:35:37

kind of felt like you spent,

1:35:40

what, a quarter of your year, and

1:35:42

then all of a sudden you just walk out of a courtroom

1:35:45

and everything's over. But

1:35:47

it's not done. There was no closure. I

1:35:49

was leaning toward

1:35:51

a guilty verdict.

1:35:54

I really was. Did we want to go to

1:35:56

shelter? It's 5.15 right now. I

1:35:58

just thought the sun is about to get up. go down.

1:36:01

What do you guys want to do? Like I still have,

1:36:04

I mean we could talk. I know, I know. We

1:36:06

can't talk. I know we, I feel like we still

1:36:08

haven't even touched the... Can there be a part

1:36:11

two? Like do we schedule

1:36:13

like

1:36:13

another... I would while you're down though

1:36:16

still really like to show you at least Cal Poly.

1:36:18

Let's just do one last question. Okay. Let's go around

1:36:21

and we'll just keep the answers

1:36:22

a little bit shorter. Sure,

1:36:25

okay. Shut up. Sure,

1:36:27

sure. Hey, I handed it to you for...

1:36:30

Let's talk about the moments in the trial

1:36:32

that led you

1:36:33

to the verdict. What were the standout

1:36:35

moments of testimony or evidence?

1:36:39

The standout thing for me

1:36:42

was his lack of consistency,

1:36:44

his lack

1:36:46

of wanting to be proactive,

1:36:50

helping

1:36:51

the cops to help find Kristen.

1:36:53

If he's supposedly the last person

1:36:56

to see him. I'm going to want

1:36:58

to clear my name if

1:37:00

I did nothing wrong. Absolutely.

1:37:02

His

1:37:03

lack of doing that. And

1:37:06

then the final

1:37:09

straw for me was listening to that interrogation

1:37:12

tape and him saying when

1:37:14

we got back to the dorm.

1:37:16

That was the final straw for me. For

1:37:19

me, it's like when the interrogator

1:37:22

was saying that to eliminate him

1:37:24

becoming a suspect, he needs to do the

1:37:27

polygrav test, but he doesn't

1:37:29

want to be eliminated. And then also

1:37:31

the alibi on the shower. He

1:37:34

didn't get any name on

1:37:36

the alibi of the shower. And then

1:37:38

the light, the white light, the

1:37:40

basketball because of the basketball. He

1:37:43

had the black eye, removing

1:37:44

the stereo. And

1:37:47

then I just want

1:37:49

to think about the victims. It's

1:37:52

not easy for them to see all

1:37:55

in front of them. It's really hard. I know

1:37:57

cadaver dogs. I know how smart they are.

1:37:59

I have a colleague

1:38:02

that trains seeing

1:38:04

eye dogs from puppies, so

1:38:06

I know how intelligent they are. I'm

1:38:09

a science, I have a science background. So

1:38:12

even though there wasn't a body and there was

1:38:14

no definitive DNA, I just

1:38:16

felt that there was good scientific

1:38:20

data that something abnormal

1:38:23

existed underneath that house. I

1:38:25

was very disappointed when

1:38:27

I heard Ruben's bird.

1:38:30

That was really disappointing to me because I

1:38:33

truly in my heart think that

1:38:35

he was involved in that. If

1:38:37

you're innocent and you have nothing to hide

1:38:40

and you're in a small little town and

1:38:42

people are driving by your house regularly

1:38:44

and they're throwing rocks at your house and they're not talking

1:38:47

to you at the grocery

1:38:49

store and you're shunned, why

1:38:51

do you not just move?

1:38:52

Wouldn't you just pick up and move

1:38:54

unless you had something to hide? Unless

1:38:58

you didn't want anybody to have full access

1:39:00

to your property. It was his inconsistency,

1:39:03

his lies, nothing added up for

1:39:05

him. The fact that he had to lie about the

1:39:08

same thing in different ways and

1:39:10

when he came down to it, he still had a black

1:39:12

eye and he couldn't even tell anybody straight

1:39:14

up what happened. And my

1:39:16

point of view is if I'm trying to clear my name,

1:39:19

you know, talk to me as much as you want. There

1:39:22

are many polygraphs test

1:39:23

this. Do you want? That's my thing. And

1:39:25

he's like, I had to get permission from mom and dad first. Mom

1:39:27

and dad told me not to. And I'm like, aren't you 19? So

1:39:30

that was one, that was second. And then his

1:39:33

pattern, watching his pattern, how he

1:39:36

is with the ladies. I'm going

1:39:38

to say this word, the rapist. He's a rapist.

1:39:40

He's a monster. Watching how he continues

1:39:42

to do the same thing over and over and over.

1:39:46

And then for me also just like the

1:39:48

cherry on top was after we

1:39:50

heard the video twice and

1:39:52

watched it three times.

1:39:55

The we, when we

1:39:57

got back. Like what time did you

1:39:59

get back? to the dorm room, he said, we got

1:40:01

back, yes. It just, everything

1:40:03

added up to me for that. It was like one thing

1:40:06

after another, after another, after another, just,

1:40:08

it piled up. Circumstantial evidence

1:40:11

to not point to him.

1:40:12

I mean, how much, it's

1:40:15

just too much. He was the last one to be with her.

1:40:17

He took possession of her, basically, and said, I'll

1:40:19

get you home safe. I'll get her home safe. He spoke

1:40:22

that to other people, and he

1:40:24

was creeping around that party,

1:40:27

and she was not seen to be drinking enough

1:40:30

to have been drunk, and

1:40:34

that whole behavior seemed predatory to

1:40:36

me. So him saying he'll

1:40:38

walk her home, he'll get her to her dorm,

1:40:41

and then later saying he didn't know where her dorm

1:40:43

was. Those were a bunch of lies that came

1:40:45

together, and the final

1:40:48

thing at that night

1:40:50

would be that if you said goodbye

1:40:52

to a girl who's incoherent and

1:40:55

can't walk, you're gonna find her on the lawn or

1:40:57

in a planter box the next morning. It's

1:40:59

not that someone came around

1:41:01

random, another predator happened

1:41:03

to come around and pick her up, and then brought

1:41:06

her to live in Dubai, like

1:41:08

Mr. Mesick said. Mr. Mesick,

1:41:10

you made a big mistake by saying that.

1:41:12

That was just so horrible

1:41:15

of you, but

1:41:18

it goes on further when the cadaver

1:41:20

dogs for me came in,

1:41:22

and hit on the bed.

1:41:25

The dogs don't lie. We

1:41:28

can't communicate with them, of course, and

1:41:30

speak dog language, but...

1:41:33

I can't believe you even tried

1:41:35

that. That, and then the next day

1:41:37

there were no phone records of any lying,

1:41:40

he didn't make any phone calls out of that phone. Pretty

1:41:43

clear in my mind that he was definitely involved.

1:41:46

Then they bring the women in, talking about how

1:41:48

they had been

1:41:50

somehow intoxicated, but

1:41:52

hadn't had much to drink that night, just

1:41:55

kind of all puts together as a pattern, and

1:41:58

they wake up with a ball gag.

1:41:59

I don't think he had a ball

1:42:02

gag for Kristen. So what'd you do?

1:42:04

Stick something in her mouth? She

1:42:06

asphyxiates, vomits.

1:42:09

So you have to say you vomited in your mouth? Why did

1:42:11

you have to say you vomited in your mouth? That was very

1:42:13

bizarre to me. I was so tired of hearing that because I kept

1:42:15

just thinking over and over again, it was

1:42:17

her vomit. I will

1:42:19

be honest, I was one of the jurors that was on

1:42:21

the fence only because I do

1:42:24

have an open mind. And

1:42:27

yeah, in the courtroom, we're given all this

1:42:29

evidence

1:42:29

and stuff, but we don't have so much

1:42:32

time to process what is being said. We're

1:42:37

there trying to take notes and trying to keep up.

1:42:40

And so in the deliberation room, going

1:42:43

in there, that was a big relief, us

1:42:45

finally being able to just talk about it. It's

1:42:48

almost as if we walked in there and you can hear

1:42:50

everybody, a big sigh of relief, like,

1:42:53

we actually all cried.

1:42:56

It was kind of my

1:42:58

idea to break it down, like, let's start

1:43:00

off with one witness

1:43:03

and go from there. And

1:43:06

so that's what we did. And we would pick out little

1:43:08

things from each witness and be like,

1:43:10

okay, you know what? We can use that. We

1:43:12