Tatheer Ali, Youth Change Canada’s Ontario Coordinator, recently sat down with a group of young professionals in Ottawa to discuss their experiences of discrimination and micro-aggression in the workplace. The discussion is guided by a powerful piece by Hadiya Roderique published in the Globe and Mail entitled ‘Black on Bay Street.’ Most importantly, the podcast concludes by offering some actionable items that executives can adopt to make their workplace more inclusive. If you are looking for a frank, open, and honest discussion on the daily professional challenges faced by young persons of colour then please give this a listen!

Transcript:

Tatheer: Hi, this is Tatheer Ali. So I’m recording another podcast for Youth Change. Today, I’m going to be joined by some friends. We’re going to talk about an article that came out about three years ago called Black on Bass Street by Hadia Rodriquez. And so if you haven’t read the article, I highly, highly recommend it. And around the room. I’m joined with about six of my friends, all of whom are POCs. So that’s people of color for those who do not know. I’ve asked everyone to put on a sticky with a different name so that we’re not reminding everybody so that we can have kind of an open, frank conversation. It looks a little bit like that episode from the Office Diversity Day that I hope we tackle these issues a little bit better than Michael Scott and Dwight. So, to kick things off, I’m just going to introduce you to my friends around the table. To my right, I’ve got Becky, then we’re joined by with John, Fatima, Judith, Muhammed and Bujah. So, again, if I call those names and that’s not actually their name. These are pseudonyms, so do not try and look for your friends in this podcast.

Tatheer: To kick things off, we’re going to start talking about the first issue that Heidi Rodrique brings up in her article. It’s about name. So as someone with a challenging name to Tatheer, I’ve often had people either butcher it completely, forgo mentioning it by calling me our colleague or that young brown woman. Or at other times, I’ve had recently, more recently had people completely inversed my name. So, I’m now Ali Tatheer. These are just all sources of frustration. But it does lead to a sort of a problem with people acknowledging your identity. I know this isn’t a problem that I’ve only had, so I’ve kind of got to open it up and see for my friends. And as you can see, some people have anglicized names and some people have ethnic names, and that is based on their own personal experiences.

Tatheer: So I want to first kick it off to people with ethnic names and ask them, you know, sort of their experience and how they have dealt with people coming to terms with having to learn maybe a name that’s not easy for them or how they felt that it’s maybe compromised their identity when people refuse to do that. So, I pass that over to Pooja.

Pooja: Hello World, this is Pooja. Yeah, I can jump right in and say, you know, I’ve had many experiences, I think, with folks mispronouncing my name. I think I sort of place the onus of the responsibility of that on myself. But I immediately default to spelling it out for people to a point where I think it’s a bit for a school or people just like, why are you spelling out your name very intentionally? But just I think it’s just simply because it’s a string of letters that typically people don’t hear together or they’re just so confused and perplexed, have no reference point of the name. And so, it is a task. I think there are many people who I’ve spoken to other abuses who don’t feel comfortable correcting, correcting folks when the mispronounced your name or they’re comfortable very quickly suggesting like, oh, you can call me this instead insert, you know. Right. I just I make it such a point to, you know, maybe belabor the point even to say this is my name. Here’s how it’s spelled. This is how it’s pronounced without maybe, you know, launching into a tirade about it, but at least trying to do just enough that people know the name.

Remember the name. And are comfortable to clarify how it’s pronounced.

Tatheer: So. Right. It’s something just as small as your name, but you’re kind of demanding space and demanding that your identity is acknowledged.

Pooja: Yeah, absolutely.

Judith: I would just note I sign an email signature recently. Someone had had their name and it phonetically spelled out and then their pronouns. And I thought like, oh, that is smart. We should not, we should all do that, but we could all do that and for a variety of other reasons. And the other bit that I just want acknowledges when there are international students from China who feel obliged to take an English Canadian name, like, I feel like, oh, we’re not that stupid, we’ll learn it eventually. So I just wanted to note that as well as kind of on another note, but a friend of mine switched his first name for it as his middle name. So for the job search that’s mentioned in the article in terms of do I use my real name, do I use, you know, something else like that was in an actual debate. Bearing in mind I have an English like anglicized French name, so is relatively easy for me. But I discouraged him from not switching his name because that’s your identity. That’s who you are. But also recognizing I know why. Like nobody wants some disadvantage during a job application and honestly why they asked for those, like why they ask for your name almost seems irrelevant. You know what I mean. Like, be assigned a number and move forward.

Mohamed: Speaking as far as the article goes, I believe Hadia spoke about considering changing her name to Judith, I think, which was her middle name.

Tatheer: Jolene

Mohamed: OK. Yeah. But this was something like I definitely considered as well. I was going through the job or crew during law school and I was having dinner with my parents one day and all of a sudden my mom turns to me and she’s just like, you should change your name to Parker. And I was like, I don’t know about that. But she’s like, it would be good for your job. A resume is would help you fit in better. Honestly, it would probably be better for a career if he just went by Parker as your first name and that’s who you became. And that was sort of crazy, like just hearing that from my own parents. And it was something I thought about but ended up never doing it. But even something like where you go to Starbucks and they ask you for your name. I used to I just ended up using something like Parker. Then at my old job, they were asking for my name every time I ordered something at the lunch place. So, I became Parker for like a year. Then they used to see me, and they would be like, what’s up Parker? And one day I was just like, I can’t do this anymore. So I just. Yeah. Exactly. So I told them, hey, my name is Mohammed. I just went by Parker because it was easier. Easier for you guys. Easier for me. But I think that’s something that you definitely have to deal with when you have an ethnic kind of name one.

Pooja: One more thing. I find that often when I introduce myself to people and sort of giving my name, I merely launch into a justification like the back story of how I was named. It’s this elaborate story of how my grandpa wanted to name all the girls in the family, a particular string of names that were interconnected, each of which has like an attribute attached to it. And so, I go going to say and you know, in English, this is what it means. This is a root in Sanskrit. Most often people ask what is Sanskrit. I’m like, okay, not the perfect reference point. And then go even further back. So there’s Latin, right? And then if you just come over and anyway, I just find that maybe I just maybe reflecting on it, I realize it’s maybe an effort to immediately. But then it used to me say, oh, there’s actually was thought out. There’s the entire significance of this name and a whole other part of the world perhaps that you’re not too acquainted with. And it’s like a two-minute explanation of the name, which may be no one needs.

Tatheer: Yeah. I mean, to both of your points, I think it’s super fascinating that uh. Yeah. We all have reservation names and delivering names and it’s the same with having to explain your name. I’ve had to do that so many times. And in some ways, I think we’re very proud of the names that our parents have given us, even if it’s a unique name or a hard name for other people to pronounce because it’s an entire story behind that name. It’s not just, you know, we picked it out of a baby book or an app nowadays. And so we’re really proud of it. And that’s kind of why we try and justify it in some ways, isn’t it?

Fatima: Yeah, I think it is interesting because the common thread in all those examples is that. The common thread in all those examples is that, you know, it’s a person of color making room for the white person to be able to pronounce their name. I think that that’s there are some quotes going like there’s one quote that floats around in the Internet. I’ve seen it on Twitter, but also just on random pages. And it’s like a conversation between an African child and his mother and the person being, like, saying, oh, you know, they can’t pronounce my name. And the mother goes, oh, you know, if they learn to pronounce Dostoyevsky and Czajkowski, they can learn your name. I think that is such a simple quote or phrase, but I think it speaks volumes about the power dynamics that are at play when you introduce yourself, that is, I think, key to acknowledge it. Also on the anecdote around international students from China, I experienced a funny set. Not funny, but it was funny at the time. We were in a trade law lecture and there were a lot of students from China. The professor had studied Mandarin and was making a point to show off and pronounce each student’s name right. With one student, they just couldn’t get the name right and the student was just kind of frustrating news like, you know, you can just call me Mark and everyone laughed in the room because, you know, it’s just, the common understanding was it’s like, oh, it’s such a stereotype, it’s hilarious that these persons of color have to constantly change their name to accommodate. White people. Yeah. So, on the one hand, yes, POC do you have to, jump through these hoops. I think it’s also important to acknowledge the dynamics that are at play from the other side as well.

Tatheer: Yeah, I mean, I think those are all great points and just talking to all of you guys, it’s reminding me about how sometimes I actually dread, like the formal introduction. So I’ve had the opportunity now to introduce myself to too many people since I’ve changed jobs so often. I hate like going around and meeting people because, you know, you are going to have people who are going to immediately forget your name. They are not going to know how to say it. You’re going to have to keep repeating it. And yeah, it seems like a useless exercise. And then, you know, at the end of the day, they’re just going to be like whispering in some cubicle that you might overhear being like, oh, yes. What’s that brown girl’s new brown girl’s name again. And I know it’s not out of malice. I know it’s just out of a lack of understanding. It’s something that I often dread almost.

Tatheer: So maybe we are going to move right along because there’s a lot to cover. And that idea brings up. And I think I want to jump to sort of the essence of what she’s talking about. And so her essential thesis in this article is that as much as merit is important, what ultimately matters is whether or not you’re a good fit. And so, she talks about the idea of opportunity and belonging and fit. This is something that lingered with me for a long time because I had not thought about that until I had a manager who later on told me, you know, you’re a good fit. And I didn’t even know what that meant. Thankfully, he was not too concerned with my racial dynamic, just more, you know, how I blended with the rest of the team. But that got me on the path of yes, fit matters. The social context of your work environment matters. Sometimes those of us who are posse’s we might not necessarily fit because we don’t have the same shared experiences as those in executive positions. So I kind of want to open it up to the I want to say table, but we’re just really sitting on my living room floor and I want to sort of passed around to others to see how they feel about that and about fitting in at work. I’m going to start off right here.

John: All right. So, I am John, I guess, for the purposes of the podcast. Yes, fit. OK, well, fit, I think is important, but also somewhat complicated because there are legitimate reasons for wanting new employees to have a good fit, so to speak like you want them to mesh well with the team that they work with. You want to be, I guess, succeed in that kind of environment. But at the same time, you know, as the article kind of highlights, sometimes there are instances in which fit not because it’s intentionally chosen this way, but indirectly fit can be kind of exclusionary because you like to hear it saying you just don’t have many of the same experiences.

So, you know, I in my own life personally have kind of dealt with fit issues, especially in the law firm recruit context, because I went through this as well. And usually, you know, there’s a bit of it where you don’t share the same cultural context as perhaps you’re predominantly white employers, associates, and partners, and you don’t come from the same kind of class background either. So, in terms of fit, you can’t, you know, talk about how you went to your cottage on the weekend or you can’t talk about your ski trips or anything like that. I remember when I was going through the legal recruit, people really liked to talk about how they’d love to play squash. I’ve never played squash. I’m not sure what the rules of squash are, but it was very like a thing for people that they were really into squash. And I was like, OK, I guess this is like a white dude cultural thing. But it was also, in a weird way, a barrier in that I couldn’t make small talk on squash having only associated with vegetables.

Tatheer: Right. I mean, I totally feel that I am one of the places that I worked. Everyone seemed to have squeezed. I don’t know what it was, but it was like. And it’s also an Ottawa thing. Everyone skis. I have never skis. I don’t know how to ski. I don’t like outdoor sports. I’m an advocate that immigrants don’t do outdoor sports like camping, though. I know people have proven me wrong. I’m looking at John right now. But, yeah, it’s it was a weird thing. And I had nothing really to say to these people and they had nothing to say to me. So, we would fall back on our shared alma mater. And that was kind of most of my elevator conversation.

Judith: Well, we’re almost all public sector employees. So I find it really interesting from two viewpoints. One. There’s certain when you talk about fit, you recruit for fit. You recruit like everyone who gets screened-in, get screened in based on the fact that they have educational qualifications and it’s all merit-based, etc., etc.. But in the interview, which is a, you know, false sense of who you are and who they are and what the job is, you would like do your best to like, say there’s a fit because of like this thing or that thing. You can tell even based on these questions of random situations or what about this or that in the system, whatever you can see if there’s a fit or not. Right, you can. That’s what people are really judging. They don’t. Yeah. There’s a point-based here, questions. But that’s a subjective thing as well. Right. And it’ll never be truly objective because to your point, there’s a benefit in fit. So the place I currently work, I find that everyone fits, but for that reason, they’re all visibly diverse but similar in thought.

And that, to me, is a problem. That’s a different kind of like, yeah, you all fit, but there’s there’s too much similarity. Now, there is a cultural component to that that maybe adds a different lens to certain things, but not everything. The other bit is when I was applying, when I first graduated and was applying to jobs, one of my friends who’s white was asking if I check the like visible minority box. And I was like, no, look, I don’t do that because I don’t consider will consider myself a visible minority. What is visible minorities like what are we talking about here? Population statistics. What does that mean? Like, visibly, I’m the same as you, in my own opinion. And then he was like, well, look, you know, we’re all kind of working against the union here ticket. Like, it might get you a few extra points or get you in a little bit further. Right. But that was a real struggle. Like, do I take that box or not? And I, I should have ticked it now. I’m like, Al, you know what? It. It matters in some minimal way, but it does matter. And that that was but that was a real struggle and conversation with him to figure out, like, I don’t know if I’m comfortable assessing myself as this because I don’t see myself like this. I think in the article, she really quite nicely pointed out that when you are in a hiring position when you have the opportunity to review people’s rights, makes you look you look for similarities to yourself. And I don’t think that’s a bad thing. I do think it will never in the interview or hiring process really get to a point where like we have a perfect right. But I think there’s nothing wrong with that in terms of like getting people that are a bit similar or can jive with the group dynamic as long as the group is itself willing to be open to diverse perspectives. I think that’s sort of an organizational culture kind of work. I think it’s interesting that she’s a lawyer because I think there you have this really interesting sample of, like, people who are known to be similar as soon as they hit law school. Right. Like there there’s a lot of similarities there. And then imagine going to a law firm where that’s just highlighted even more so.

Tatheer: Just to provide our listeners with some context. So, Judith, who just spoke.

She is, I would say, somewhat passing white. And that was the visible minority box. I mean, I don’t know. I think I picked up on your Europeo Cestus because I look for that.

Becky: As someone with an Anglo name, I always, like, thought myself as being lucky when I’m applying for jobs because I look at my name on paper and I think, oh, I’m so lucky. Look, I know it’ll make it past the first stage for sure. I have cousins who had at nicknames who legally changed their names because they could see the advantages that my brother and I were both getting kinds of maybe by not having ethnic names. But then on the flip side and maybe kind of going back to John’s point or I’ll get to his point after another point. So oftentimes when I say my name, for example, at Starbucks, I introduce a person looks ethnic, but they have like an Anglo name, and yeah, literally. Is that your real name or is that a good nickname or something? And I. Yeah. And so many times people have asked me, how do you spell that like. And I’m like I’m pretty sure there’s only one way to spell this name. Like how else you spell it. It’s happened at Starbucks so many times. And I’m just like, are you kidding me? Like it’s weird that almost that because of the way I look, it might even be easier to give an ethnic name and spelled out for them rather than the confusion they get like, oh, she’s brown, but she has like a white name. Yeah, I’m Becky. I mean, my name is almost as easily spelled as back east, so I don’t know if there’s like a way fit in with the culture of people who go skiing all the time, camping, whatever, bubble, blah. I always find it like even during Christmas time. I hate Christmas time so much, not because people assume you celebrate it or whatever, but because people don’t assume you don’t celebrate it. And I’m like, of course, me and my family like to like bake gingerbread cookies and get together and like have a turkey, whether or not there’s a religious purpose to it.

But it’s like they just assume, oh, do you and your family, like, do something over the holidays? Like, obviously we do. We’re all off. Well, what else are we going to do at home together? And so it’s not just like not being able to fit in because you don’t do those things, but it’s like even if you did do some of those things, they just assume you don’t do them. And they, like, make it uncomfortable for everyone. Like, oh, like so what are you guys doing for Easter? Like, I don’t know, we’re all off. Obviously, I’m going to hang out together like, no, we’re coming to work even though everyone’s off. So that’s just like the flip side of this whole conversation, like because you don’t look like that. They also assume you don’t do the same things they do.

Mohamed: As a person of color, I think like some of the reference points that are taken for granted in perhaps the workplace or people you’re talking to, this sort of ends up being this thing where you just have to. I guess to find out as much as you can about, at least for me, this is what I do. I usually just ask a bus a bunch of questions about whatever it is that they’re speaking about because I know from my personal experience that, hey, like I don’t know much about whatever this is, whether it’s skiing or curling or something of that nature. So usually I just take the time to figure out, hey, why do you like this? What do you do? And I think that helps, I guess, as far as fitting NGOs, because you’re showing an interest. But at the same time, I don’t think that that’s always reciprocated and that they take the time to find out more about your culture or about who you are.

Tatheer: Yeah, I think I think you’ve turned the conversation to a really good point where so these are all of the steps that we’ve taken so that we can sort of demonstrating ourselves as being a good fit. I’m sure people have to go even further. I’ve heard of people, especially black men, who try to make themselves look less aggressive by dressing well or people who try. And, you know, you might have this really nice cocktail dress that is Indian, but you won’t wear that to your work because you’ll definitely wear the Western cocktail dress to fit in as much as possible. So, you know, we’ve made all these attempts to be less threatening and to be more and just to be part of the crowd. Then it’s interesting when we’re faced against people who don’t necessarily understand our experiences. You know, it’s true. We might not necessarily all celebrate Christmas, but we do celebrate other holidays. And it’s how do we emphasize that this is just as important for me to have time off to take that time with my family, even though, yeah, it might be a busy period at work because it’s inconvenient, because it doesn’t align with the Western business cycle or sometimes it’s other things like here’s my legitimate experience of in my culture, my grandmother is the equivalent to my mother and therefore her death means I need as many days off as my mother. These are just some examples that others have raised to me and that stuck with me because, yeah, those aren’t seen in the same way. And we kind of feel like we almost have to fight and justify. Like, I know when Eid comes around, it’s by the moon calendar and we can’t seem to pick sort of a day officially until we’re pretty close. And so I remember once asking for that off and my superior was just kind of like, well, why wouldn’t you ask me the way in advance? Then I felt this overwhelming need to explain and to sort of helping them understand. OK. So for my sect, it’s one day. For other people, it’s three days. Also, there’s a moon calendar. There are all of these elements. And that’s fine. It’s all about education. But there is a sense of feeling the need to justify ourselves. And so maybe I can ask if others have ever felt that, like trying to somehow help other people understand your lived experience and how that’s maybe come up either in a professional context or in an academic sense.

Becky: Can you rephrase that?

Tatheer: Yeah. So maybe it would be I guess the best way I can phrase it is sometimes OK when we’re trying to justify our experiences. Right. Like, let’s say we’re looking at our resume and we’re saying I’ve done X, Y, Z, and maybe it doesn’t look like the most promising resume like maybe we’ve worked in our mom’s daycare like I did that maybe just seems OK. So, you babysat. Who cares? But to me, that was a big deal and I needed to do that because I had a single mom. How would you say in your life there have been certain experiences that are of value that maybe aren’t of the same value, seeing the same value because they don’t recognize it or like, you know, maybe you need to go home for an X, Y, Z reason or, I don’t know, things like that. Maybe it’s not around this table, but I know that the accommodation issues can exist in other groups. If we don’t have thoughts, we can also move on.

Becky: I mean, this is similar to what she had in the article about her dad navigating the system. Right. Like, what would give her benefits to get her ahead in, like, Canadian society? I mean, I’m honestly so privileged because I, like, had professors in university who were like, you’re like your job as a bouncer is as good as your job at the retail environment is as good as that job.

Because you know what? Everyone starts somewhere. But I will say, since coming to Ottawa, I find this, there are a lot of people who go to elite universities and schools and have a lot of privilege. And I’m not accustomed to that from where I grew up. And like the people, I interact with and I think there’s something bizarre about that actually looks like it’s great that people are competent and do a good job. I think that’s great, but there is something like really bizarre about nobody in the work that I like. We found out recently you can’t join the department I work with if you don’t have a master’s degree. That’s like that is a barrier. That’s not like that’s not an acknowledgment of how people do education or their competence. And when I first started working, like I worked with people who didn’t even finish well, had just finished high school maybe, and like literally worked their way from the mailroom to the senior position running these, like, federal programs or these provincial programs. I think that’s standard of setting standards a little too high or not thinking of like what is equivalent to that is a problem. But I’ve been lucky enough that professors have said that, you know when you’re applying for jobs and starting start like with the basics because that will be acknowledged. But I don’t know if that’s true in the federal government context, for example.

Fatima: Yeah, I think just. Federal jobs love master’s degree four. In my opinion. I have seen a lot of jobs that have requested master’s degrees. And then you look at the responsibilities and you are just like hello degree inflation. But it’s interesting that you raise it in the context of this conversation, because I had never, never viewed it as something that intersects with race. But it does. I think there are a lot of you know, I don’t know what the numbers look like, but I wouldn’t be surprised if someone said, you know, POC students don’t have a tougher time acquiring graduate degrees and therefore also a tougher time obtaining these types of jobs. Yeah, it’s an interesting question, I think. Yeah. The federal public service, I think faces many issues. But I think diversity in those contexts is also something that needs work. And that’s the case for other sectors as well. But I think I’ve sat in a lot of meetings and I just look around like where my people at. It’s like, OK, taking out the trash. Great. Good to know. And that’s like a very offensive way of phrasing it. But quite often that’s the reality. Yeah. So it’s a really good point.

No. And that’s like a very offensive way of phrasing it. But quite often that’s the reality. Yeah, so it’s a really good point.

Tatheer: Yeah, I think that’s that that touches on a really important point, because even just thinking of not even the barriers just to access masters, but I mean myself personally, I went into the public service very young, and I had people constantly ask me, well, why aren’t you experimenting? Weren’t you playing around? I didn’t really you know, I didn’t feel comfortable sharing this necessarily with everyone who asked. But having been an immigrant, you know, it was all about like, let’s get you through the finish line. Like, let’s get you a job so that you aren’t having the same financial struggles that your parents had in order to get you to this position. So I didn’t feel comfortable saying like, oh, yeah, I think I want a backpack or. Oh, yeah, I want to play around with my career. It was like, let’s get that, you know, permanent contract. Let’s get that making that money. Let’s get the promotions. Thankfully, I am not in a position where I have to support my parents, but I know so many people who do have immigrant parents who now have to, in turn, support during their retirement. And so they’re in the same boat. They’re in their early 20s and they know by the time they hit their 30s or 40s, they’re going to have to support not just their own family, but also their parent’s family, their parents or I guess their extended family. And so these are all considerations of maybe this is why I can’t take as many risks with my career or this is why I can’t experiment as much. Or maybe, you know, it’s even like I don’t particularly want to do X job, but because it pays the most. I’m going to chase that career. And I think Hadia touches upon it during her article, right. She talks about how she gave up her band in order so that she could focus on law school. Does anyone house have any experiences or any anecdotal sort of things they want to touch upon on that issue?

Mohammad: Well, I guess kind of related in some ways to the article, which talks about how her dad knows how to navigate the system, and Judith was like really into what you were talking about, as I think that that knowledge on, you know, my parents part and the lack of knowledge, not anything that they could have known, that knowledge tends to have like feedback implications. So, when you’re really young, having some knowledge to navigate, you know, what are the programs you put your kids in? What are the schools that you send them to, the internships or summer activities that you kind of get them done? Each of these kinds of items that you can have a kid do or introduce them to feeds back into each other down their career path. It affects the kinds of schools that they can apply to, the kinds of based on the kinds of schools that they comply with, the kind of jobs that they can find you and so on, and so forth. So that just that lack of knowledge tends to be a kind of structural disadvantage that somewhat kind of perpetuates itself. So that in general, I think at least was a problem for me, for my parents. You know, it was kind of standard career advice to the extent that they could give any, which is for Indian parents, you can do engineering, medicine or law. And I went to law school. And so that was kind of, you know, I will do one of those three standard careers. But as I get older, I see there’s a lot more variety in what people can do and in how they can navigate their careers. And that just having that knowledge would have been more beneficial. But at the same time, you know, my parents did the best that they could do with the knowledge that they have. And, you know, I’m doing well now. So very grateful to them in that respect. But. Yeah.

Tatheer: Shout out to immigrant parents everywhere, and especially in Canada, for bringing us to Canada. So I think I think we’ve covered this topic pretty well. I want to move on to something that I know I’ve spoken to almost everybody who is a person of color. And I want to talk about sort of death by a thousand cuts. So microaggressions, passive-aggressive comments, things that maybe, you know, we can’t. It’s funny, I was talking to a friend once and she said, you can’t report the minor stuff. You can never report the minor stuff because you never want to be seen as the person who complains. You can only report when something really major happens. And I think by the time something major happens, there’s a culture that has clearly been cultivated that enabled that behavior. And so, I really liked what she said about, you know, how do you report a frosty reaction or startled look like you just can’t you can’t explain it. But you internally know, you understand. And so I would like us to maybe chat a little bit about that.

And I’m hoping that this podcast is listened to by not just POCs, but by hopefully some pretty good executives. So what kind of things would you want an executive to know about your experience in any field, really, that you may not feel comfortable saying to their face?

Tatheer: So, for example, I think I’ll start by sharing my sort of experience. There was in one of the jobs that I’ve had the opportunity to work in, and I was speaking with a really pretty senior executive, and it was during the Jody Wilson Raybold issues and during the Senate hearing, or was it no. Sorry, the parliamentary committee hearing. And during that time, somebody said to me, you know, this is sort of the downside of diversity and inclusion, not recognizing that I was the only person of color in the entire sort of – how do I make this as an itemized as possible, but as in that whole area of our department. And I don’t think they meant in a negative light. Like I think they were just echoing something that had been written about, which was that homogenous groups tend to see things in the same way, and groups that have more diversity tend to have more miscommunication or, you know, they might not see things all in the same way. But just the fact that not recognizing who he was speaking with, how he was coming across the privilege of just his position versus my position. And it was just an interesting context. I didn’t take offense necessarily, but to me, it was just one of those moments of, you know, wow, like you didn’t even have to think about how you were saying this or who you were saying this, too. So, I would say to anyone who’s listening, if you’re ever in a position of power, really think about the impact your words have the same way that you would talk up. So, if I was, say, his boss, how he would’ve spoken because I don’t know if he would have been as thoughtless with his words. So speak to those people who are below you at the same gravitas tossed that you would give to someone who is above you. And maybe then I will pass it on.

Fatima: So, we are talking about microaggressions. I find these like it’s almost you almost wanted to be OK. No one ever wants it to be that bad. But I almost feel like it would be easier if it was like blatant racism because if you can report it and call it out, call it out. And people obviously be like, oh, yeah, that was totally wrong. But I, I find that I become so exhausted by just so many microaggressions almost daily. And if you call them out, you know, you’ve seen is sensitive or you like, oh, it’s not a big deal. It was a joke. I didn’t mean it that way. OK. But even if you didn’t mean it that way, like, that’s how I took it. And that’s all probably someone else would have also taken it. And it just it’s so hard to fight against those because you probably end up isolating yourself. And then people like, oh, this person at a sense of humor, like I don’t want to torture them anymore. So I don’t know, like, maybe you guys could like, advise or like what you’ve done. But in those situations, I honestly don’t know how to react. Like, I don’t want to call the person out because it’s like, oh well now like no one else is going to understand or agree with me if the rules. OK, that’s great. But most likely not. I don’t know. I just get a series of so many stupid little comments and I’m like, this person has no idea how it’s actually making me feel. So, I don’t know, like, what would you guys do in those situations? Because I honestly just like, roll my eyes and I’m like. Walk away. And then I ran to like POC obviously. But I’m like, I wish I said something to this person. And I’m like, oh my God, what do I do? It’s just it’s like honestly the biggest source of frustration that I have, like in the office these days.

Tatheer: Yeah, not an easy question to tackle.

Mohammed: Just on this subject. Like something like I went through a firm party and I my firm, I was the only person of color lawyer. But as far as, like, reacting to these things. There was one time where he was a summer party and he was a senior lawyer who I worked with quite often. And like I considered him like we get along like as good a relationship as you can have with, like a coworker. And as the night progressed, we get along like as good a relationship as you can have with, like a coworker. And as the night progressed, he like I guess probably got a little bit drunk, but then started calling me a Mexican. And I was just I’m like, hey, I’m not Mexican. I’m from Bangladesh. And he’s like, close enough. Doesn’t matter. Same skin color. And I sort of laughed it off in the moment and didn’t really think much of it. I was like, alright, whatever. And like, he kept making references, like in Spanish to me, like throughout the rest of the night. I was like, alright, whatever. It’s all good. I guess it’s just funny. And then like, I got home that night and I was like, you know what? I don’t know like that didn’t seem okay to me. Like that wasn’t cool. And like I didn’t end up doing anything because what can you do? These are people you work with on an everyday basis. You see them all the time and like you have this pre-existing relationship with them. And like, if I were to report something and be like, hey, you can’t take a joke. And I think that is usually the responses. You sort of just have to internalize it or just move on and cast it aside a little bit.

Fatima: Just a quick comment? I just find that, like, eats you up alive from within and it’s like you take you to internalize what a thousand comments and all of sudden you want to blow upon, like, something small. And I’m like, how could I have, like, maybe reacted smaller before it happened, before I blow up, like, you know, it just I don’t want it to escalate internally to a point where I just like, react badly. But then I don’t know.

Judith: Yes, it’s going to add to that that I guess pitching myself as probably over an hour and you can pitch themselves in that exact moment when you hear like just a horrendous comment.

It’s just so many things because, you know, folks around here are, you know, fairly early on maybe in their careers and young professionals. So it typically seems to be delivered by someone who is in a position of authority. So already sort of this is set power, a dynamic rate that’s a little bit difficult to challenge regardless of, you know, any other intersexual element you’re bringing into it. And then beyond that, to be typical, I find that I’m the only person who seems.

Just aware. I’m just aghast and I’m just I look around and I see there’s no flicker of recognition, anyone else’s eyes. That was a problematic statement that was just passed. And so now you’re sort of this compounded element of having to once speak up and challenge perhaps that person who’s in a position of authority and then doubly to be the only person who’s going to be able to say anything or would have to find the right words to express it in a way that’s useful and corrective, but also not angry and annoyed at the appropriate tone. So that’s just so incredibly challenging. I mean, the experience that comes to my mind as I’m speaking this out is an example at my workplace where I had a senior official who was attending an important meeting on behalf of not only our group but, you know, it was almost like an international event. And he sort of shared the experience of being approached by a lot of different stakeholders for funding. And he retold the experience and he debriefed or spoke to a bunch of people, maybe media around him, managers who then turned. So, I’m hearing this now secondhand. It’s such a catchy phrase, an idea that it’s now trickling down from the powers that be in a closed room to now me outside. Right. As someone who’s a junior in the system. And the comment was just, you know like I was walking around and people are pitching for money. I felt like I was walking through the streets of India. And I was like, I’m probably the only person of color on this floor that you’ve chosen to single me out to share this really hilarious anecdote is fascinating to me. And no problematic element of oh, I heard it. You wouldn’t believe what this person said, how problematic, but retold to me as the sole audience to commiserate with them that, my goodness, you know, when those people they asked for money just takes you back home. I didn’t know the approver responses to that. Right. You are just shocked and then kind of go through it, then go home and then feeling terrible.

Tatheer: Yeah, and you’re right, it’s all about power dynamics, it’s all about not being able to articulate what needs to be said because, you know, yeah, you want to be the person who speaks truth to power. But at the same time, you also want your career. And you also want to not be that, you know, the person is considered touchy or the person who can’t be part of the group who isn’t a good fit anymore. Yeah, it’s a hard thing.

Becky: I just want to know. Um, I think that intersects well with like being a female. Do you know what I mean?  I think that intersectionality is important. And I think even if you take race or color or that kind of visible background away from it, you will still see in the room. Right. You will see where people look like the source of power. It’s not to the female who’s leading the meeting. It will be the guy who’s sitting beside her saying nothing or an and as well, just given the and the other intersectionality is our age is I think as younger individuals here, you could still be the lead on something. But people will look at the person who’s older than you as like the source of authority.

Tatheer: So maybe I’m going to go back to what I was saying earlier. Let’s think of things that we would really want, like tangible, actionable things that maybe we could ask those who are empowered to do. So I said, you know, I think you should talk to those who are below you at the same grace that you would with someone that you like, your boss. What else do you think others can do? Because I think we need to start providing real actionable items. Otherwise, we’re not going to see our agenda moving for any further forward.

Fatima: Yeah, I’m happy to share an example is because it’s stuck with me as just one example of something that I really appreciated when being in a room with, you know, a senior executive who created, I think did a great job of trying to create the space for voices to be heard. And maybe all I can tell exactly what he said, but also just the way he did was kind of hilarious. We were at a roundtable discussion that sort of was running with the Chatham House rule and there were various representatives in the room. And at one point and he was the sole designated representative to speak on behalf of our department. And I was just accompanying him to kind of be a fly on the wall. So over the duration of the meeting, I just see him sort of scribble something on a piece of paper folded and then slide it over very conspicuously across his desk. And I pick it up and I open it up and it says, feel free to correct me when I’m wrong. Don’t be afraid. You know, like, interrupt me to speak and correct me with the facts, because you are a subject matter expert here on the subject. And so I just found that incredibly encouraging, that maybe it wasn’t a thought in my mind. I probably would have felt comfortable maybe in the room to speak up and say something. But being given explicit permission to do so from someone who was in a position of authority, I found incredibly freeing. So I think that perhaps if I could put out as encouragement that making an effort to be very explicit in and voicing that and giving people that space as opposed to saying, okay, I’m not going to say anything in this meeting, trusting that, you know, someone who’s in a junior position is going to take that as an invitation to speak up, but rather just being as explicit as possible to say, I would really love to hear your views on this or would you agree with that statement and almost trying to be intentional, I think, in inviting that opinion.

Judith: I think maybe another piece of advice, and this may sound almost bizarre to give, but just numbers. I think it’s incredibly tough to be in an environment where you are the only person of color. And then you encounter those situations and then have to take. It’s just an immense burden. And I think in my own personal experience, when I reflect on situations where I was put in the position of having to deal with the micro-aggression or aggression, it’s not always micro, unfortunately. It’s easier when you have someone who identifies with your experience. And ideally, not just one person, because it’s like better than one. But, you know, so I think, you know, and I understand that this is a controversial issue in terms of hiring practices and the extent to which organizations can deliberately hire more diverse individuals. But I think and then also what the criteria would be. And you mentioned earlier the question of taking a visible minority box. And, you know, that is just one option. There are others as well. And I think.

The question of taking a visible minority box, and, you know, that is just one option. There are others as well. And I think, you know, piece of advice would be like, look at the numbers. If you’re in a room and everyone looks like you, you have a problem. Yeah.

Mohammed: I think it’s hard to really come up with actionable advice because numbers are such an important part of it and understandably, numbers may take time. And so, yeah, it is sometimes hard, especially sometimes, I think, because, you know, things that fit into the category of microaggressions are often unintentional. It’s not like people are racist or have a kind of negative belief about people of another race. It’s just things that people do unintentionally because they haven’t given enough thought to it. So like specific, concrete, actionable items can be a little bit hard. But that said kind of something that I like that my current manager does somewhat in line with Pooja’s experience was that my manager currently at the end of meetings if he realizes you have not said anything during the entire meeting, he will turn to you and ask you, what do you think about this thing? Before the meeting ends? And we’ll do that to everyone who has not said anything during the meeting. And that, I think, gives people an opportunity to voice their opinion where they feel like their opinion is actually sought after.

Tatheer: And that is, I think, a very effective at least concrete and actionable item. So, John. Yes. You’re sitting here, John. John and I have shared the same director, and I’m so glad he brought that up because I was going to say the same thing. It terrified me when he did the first time because I had absolutely nothing to say. But it was just nice to be seen. It was nice that my opinion was considered. So I think that those are some really great examples. And maybe in closing off, I will recommend one final thing that has proven super useful to me and I know can prove useful to others, similar to Fatima said, it’s mentorship. It’s really about mentorship.

So look for people who don’t look like you. I know it’s super easy to go for the guy that, you know is into the same sports teams that you’re into. But try and go for the girl who has never watched a Raptors game. Sorry, that is me. But try and find people who you might know nothing about people who you might not think you have anything in common with or even any shared interests, and try and learn and see the world from their perspective because it might make you a better executive. It might make you a better employee. But also you’ll really mean the world to them. Like everything that I know I personally have in my career is due to mentorship and due to people really reaching out. So make that first effort because they might not be the ones to do it. Really see someone who is different from you and learn from them and allow them to learn from you and maybe to finish off. I want to finish off with a quote from Hadia’s article. She said, you know, we catch eyes almost as if to say, I see you and we belong here, too. And I feel like that’s what this conversation was for me. And I hope it was for everyone who is listening and everyone around my very tiny living room, Ottoman.

Tatheer: So thanks, everyone, for listening. It’s been great to have been able to sit around and chat through some of these things and please share widely with everyone and everyone who you might even think might not be interested.

Recording: This has been Youth Change Canada, thank you for listening to our podcast today. For our listeners, if you’re passionate about public policy and want to contribute to a topic, write to us at Youth Change Canada. Our content is created with you in mind, and we pride ourselves on being an inclusive forum. Youth Change Canada is funded through the Canada Service Corps, TakingITGlobal, and the Government of Canada. We would like to acknowledge and thank these organizations for their support in helping us to amplify youth voices. Join us next time for more public policy. Thank you.