0:11

Hey everybody welcome to episode 168

0:14

of the youth ministry booster podcast.

0:16

We are so excited. Maybe you're catching this before

0:19

during or right after but we're hanging out in

0:21

St. Louis this final

0:23

weekend in November 2018 at

0:25

the Youth Specialties National Youth

0:27

Workers convention. It's going to be

0:29

a blast blast and we're really excited because

0:32

two of our new Cohoes for the podcast

0:35

are featured there as breakout or

0:37

seminar leaders teachers deep divers

0:40

super excited. You're going to love this

0:42

conversation with the three of us. It's

0:45

me. It's our good friend Carl chromos. It's

0:47

our good friend. We'll come be talking about honesty

0:50

and youth ministry. Buckle up friends.

0:52

It gets a good fast. And

0:54

so you're going to love what is shared here in this conversation

0:57

and then I'll see at the end to fill in

0:59

any gaps.

1:04

Hey buddy welcome back to another exciting episode

1:06

of The Wooster podcast with some of our new

1:08

favorite friends. You've heard them before in

1:10

interviews and now they're here for a conversation.

1:13

It's my good buddies Carl and Will talking

1:16

today. Honestly honestly about

1:18

the folks that we let in our big question

1:20

today is Who are the folks that you're

1:22

honest enough with that you're

1:25

going to let them in to your life and youth ministry.

1:27

But before we get into the question Carlinville

1:29

I want to hear from you guys. National Convention

1:32

is like less than a month away

1:34

and you both have breakouts to give you any teasers

1:37

teasers what's going on. What are you working on.

1:39

That would be assuming that I've

1:42

written any of it. Okay that

1:44

is that is some time away.

1:47

Yeah I actually just got an e-mail this morning like

1:49

a description of your

1:52

break out. So I made it up and

1:55

so I guess that's what I'm talking about. And

1:58

now I'm locked in. You know I send a copy

2:01

to myself just so I can have a reference.

2:06

But. It. Will go on.

2:08

Well I've started working on mine

2:11

and I'm really excited about it because it's actually

2:14

going a challenge for me to do some of the things that I'm talking about.

2:17

But we're really exploring

2:19

ways to give your message

2:21

legs. How do we extend

2:24

the service beyond Sunday or midweek

2:26

bible study. So I've been doing a lot

2:28

of research on ways to

2:31

digitally and physically

2:33

move it beyond the

2:35

four walls of your sanctuary.

2:37

So I'm excited about this I know that sounds

2:39

that sounds good I think I'm going to go to that break out. That

2:41

sounds amazing. Let's go get the call.

2:44

Yeah maybe I'll do my break out on that

2:47

one. Actually I'm telling you that I'm just like

2:50

that. Yeah you might have gone to

2:53

Wils. Let me tell you really it

2:55

was real good. We're going to piggyback on that.

2:58

Don't you love that in a meeting when

3:00

someone says I'm going to piggyback on

3:02

that note. I think every time you hear

3:04

that. You don't have anything to improve this

3:07

conversation that you didn't know you're just going

3:09

to try to add to my idea.

3:11

Yeah. That or the high horse. If somebody

3:14

said something really good and. Like you don't.

3:16

Really know what they said but yet you also

3:18

don't want to not have a comment so you're like hey

3:20

man either. So my line that I'm trying

3:22

to be careful not to say too much of is hey say more

3:25

which is like a filler statement of like no

3:27

just keep talking because he I just keep talking

3:29

or hey would you unpack that

3:32

as if like like oh yeah Great.

3:34

It's like they said something great. Just let it hang

3:36

me. And you don't have to comment on it.

3:38

Warm up packs like hey I

3:40

don't really get it. I'm

3:43

going to put it in a way for you to just keep talking

3:46

so I can pretend I understand.

3:48

It's like only it's like an audio had not

3:50

right.

3:50

Like a more seriously

3:54

I was I was in a meeting last week and I kid you not.

3:57

There were six piggyback comments

3:59

on my guess. I'm going to piggyback on that. Who

4:02

would carry six people on their back. That's right.

4:07

You should ask the person at the end like is your back hurt

4:09

like your Aries meeting

4:12

everybody. You know I feel like the person that has piggyback wants

4:14

has like closed it for anybody else.

4:16

That's right. You don't make it out to a meeting law.

4:18

That's going to add that to my bringing up principles.

4:21

I'm going to add that to the leadership principles.

4:24

One piggyback per conversation that's it.

4:27

And we're so excited to have you guys today.

4:30

This is the conversation I really I mean I think we've

4:32

talked about it each kind of individually personally just

4:34

like Who are the people right. So the conversation

4:36

for us in this episode is that honest

4:39

conversation or who are the people that you let in

4:41

because I think anything you guys would share more

4:43

than the big ideas you've had in your lives.

4:46

So many of the turning points in the growth

4:48

in your leadership especially as a pastor

4:51

are the people that you have met or

4:53

the people that you've let in. And I want to hear from you

4:55

guys who are some of those people that

4:57

you have left in because you share honestly

5:00

enough about yourselves that when they spoke

5:02

into your ally that you were a little bit

5:04

different because of it. Is it a kind of

5:06

both chance meeting with the person. Do you have some

5:09

ongoing people that you're like

5:11

always meeting with and you're always kind of like

5:13

opening the doors are like letting

5:15

in the window. Who are those folks for you

5:18

both.

5:18

I like that. Like well unpack

5:21

that a little bit more. It's the same more

5:23

same more. Well

5:25

I've tried to be patient and be like you first.

5:28

Two things I don't want to say. I have a couple

5:30

of people that I'm completely transparent with

5:33

because it's based on who they are

5:35

in my life. OK.

5:36

There are people who understand the ministry

5:39

side of what I do so I can be transparent with

5:41

them regarding ministry things. However

5:43

those who aren't I can't be like you know.

5:45

So let me tell you what happened in youth group to the youth

5:48

group right before they went. You

5:51

are a grown man. Yeah.

5:55

So the cream thing just didn't work out right.

6:00

So but I get that from.

6:02

I was looking at the past. The

6:04

story of David how David when

6:07

the king tried to give them the armor he was like Yo I

6:09

cannot carry wear your armor because

6:11

I have not practiced it and I can't wear them.

6:14

When Jonathan gave the armor to David

6:16

Davis like yo I can rock this. And so what

6:18

it tells me is there are people that you can be transparent

6:21

with although it's both armer right. It's

6:23

the same thing. You can't carry

6:25

or wear or share with

6:28

people who don't understand where you're walking. So

6:30

I have in ministry another

6:33

gentleman that's in youth ministry just as I

6:35

am he has a youth group. He's doing the

6:37

same thing and I can say hey man my

6:39

struggle is I know I've got to get these things

6:42

accomplished. But I also need to. Be.

6:45

A father.

6:46

And a husband and heal. And he sometimes

6:48

will be the one to take me on the shoulder like go go home.

6:52

You know be OK.

6:54

And he's allowed to say that or I like you guys are in

6:56

the same spot in life that if he says that to

6:58

you and he's here it is like Nah forget it

7:01

because one of his things that he told me that this is

7:03

an amazing quote he said while you're saying.

7:06

Somebody else is saying here kitty kitty.

7:09

And he's like So you know with your

7:11

wife. He's like you can't you've got to be that one

7:13

that's like. All right. Listen I'm here and

7:16

push her away. And then when you go to find

7:19

her you know. She's missing.

7:21

See like this is one for me. Sincerely

7:23

like. I really really suck

7:26

at this. Oh good. No

7:28

it's not good good man. Like I would tell you like.

7:31

I'm good at it. In a professional in

7:34

the in the professional. And

7:36

in terms of ministry and

7:38

probably even terms of. Leadership

7:41

development like I've had

7:43

guys that I think about a guy Dave

7:46

who this guy is just brilliant

7:48

like worked worked for Jack Welch

7:50

should G.E. and was a

7:53

brilliant guy and so I was meeting with Dave

7:55

you know twice a month and I'd show up

7:57

to that time with him. Which I

8:00

always encourage for any young leader. I would

8:02

show up that time with him with two questions.

8:04

And it's like Hey Dave I got these two questions

8:06

that I'm wrestling with. Sometimes it

8:09

be ministry wise. Sometimes

8:11

they be life stuff. But that would be our

8:13

time we wouldn't go to a Greek restaurant. And

8:16

by the time both of us had done it you know salad that was that

8:18

was our meeting was over because he was a really busy dude. But.

8:21

It allowed me a space to talk to someone

8:24

honestly who was not just one

8:26

step or two steps ahead of me. I think it's

8:28

critical to have someone who is like. Ten

8:32

steps ahead. You like having

8:34

that person in having that person

8:36

in your life is huge.

8:39

Because I think when you look at somebody who's just a couple

8:41

steps ahead. You know you in

8:44

it was just a couple steps and it's

8:46

like OK that's the person I want to be like next

8:49

year. Yeah but when you're looking at someone who's 25

8:52

30 years old then you you're like Are this

8:54

why I want to be you know in 25

8:56

in 25 years. And that adds

8:58

so much perspective. To

9:01

what you're asking them to what you're

9:04

how you're engaging. I would find myself most

9:06

often. One of the few times in my life. The time

9:09

where I'm not talking. I'm just

9:11

listening. And to me that's that's a

9:13

perfect voice to have

9:15

in your life someone who to you get in that presence

9:18

and you're not talking much because it's like OK

9:20

I really really got to dial in and listen. But

9:23

when it comes to my. Like

9:26

the day to day stuff I got some

9:29

dudes. But. I think a lot

9:31

of it might be based on personality

9:33

type. So I'm like I'm a high introvert. You

9:37

know. So like I would say pretty honestly

9:39

like my wife's like. The closest

9:41

person to me in the world. But

9:45

then when I got to talking about my wife who I go

9:47

to you know and I'd

9:49

say probably in the last five years I've been

9:51

working on developing a lot of

9:54

who are who are those who those voices that I allow

9:56

in. To really kind of.

9:58

Dig into some deeper stuff with

10:00

me and what I hear you say and there Carl that's really

10:02

powerful is that like the person that's one or two steps

10:04

ahead that you'd like admire because it's

10:06

like man like like how did you grow your ministry

10:09

or man. Seems like things are really rocking for you. Are

10:11

you seemingly have it all together.

10:13

Might be great. Melech solve a problem right. Kind

10:15

of like Coach you to a solution. And that

10:17

person that's like 10 steps ahead is like that's like visionary

10:19

right. And that's like having a plan

10:21

of the church having a vision like I even

10:23

know you get where you are. I just know I want to

10:26

be who you are. And that's yeah you

10:28

don't have something like that. Such a powerful thing in ministry.

10:30

Otherwise you just moving from problems solution.

10:32

Right. You're just going for him. It's not working

10:35

now. How do I fix this at work. But

10:38

I don't really I don't I don't

10:40

know.

10:40

Add onto that. It's. I

10:42

don't I wouldn't please if you just find somebody who's in

10:44

ministry. And I think when you're

10:46

looking at someone who's. 10 steps

10:49

ahead of you. They're

10:51

going to. School your life

10:54

stuff things that are transferable no

10:56

matter what you're doing. So there

10:58

might be some finance guy in your church

11:00

or in your community that's

11:02

like OK I want to start hanging with him

11:04

or there might be a mommy you know who's

11:07

been a stay at home mom for 30 years

11:10

and there is just wisdom in how

11:12

to balance that life. And

11:15

all of those things so yeah I don't I don't particularly

11:17

say that person is way far ahead. I'm looking

11:20

at someone who is going to help

11:22

me move my ministry forward. I'm looking at somebody is

11:24

helping me by my life. That's

11:27

that's been my differential with

11:29

that is when I was meeting with Dave.

11:31

I was saying Dave like. Helped me

11:33

be a better human being. Being like

11:35

that. It's like he like cars because.

11:39

Who knows what I'll be doing in 10 years. Yeah. Like

11:41

I could be flipping burgers. You know it's likely

11:44

I would be flipping burgers and tenuis but you know

11:46

what I mean. But. I was

11:48

saying Dave how do you help me to be a better human

11:50

being. Help me be a better man. Help me be a better

11:52

follower of Christ.

11:55

And that's why his wisdom was was so big I

11:57

know was a little counterintuitive what you're saying. Because

11:59

I wasn't asking him about. I sometimes

12:02

I was I was like hey like what do you think your

12:04

boss is a jerk. There's my old church my new

12:06

church. But is that right. I

12:08

want to make that clear because I'm sure my investors

12:11

listen to the rest. That's that was a deal there.

12:13

I was asking him about like way

12:16

way bigger picture bigger picture stuff.

12:18

And we understand that the beauty of silence because sometimes

12:21

when we get in the audience of these individuals

12:23

we want to talk talk talk and you said it's there's

12:26

there's beauty in silence and understanding that

12:28

look I just want to hear about your day. Tell

12:30

me what you did. What was that was the content

12:32

of your conversation. And although I

12:34

may have questions me just

12:36

sitting in your audience and hearing how

12:39

you've unpacked figured out your day. Makes

12:41

me.

12:42

Let me figure out how did I get to this point.

12:44

And really some things around and

12:46

you're right. It's good to just sit and listen sometimes

12:49

and and those individuals whether they're in

12:51

ministry or they're just a grandpa

12:54

right. I had a guy a dentist

12:56

and he was the most gangster dentist I ever knew his

12:58

name was Dr. Craven and I mean

13:00

he.

13:01

He bought his house he bought his daughter's

13:03

house. He like pretty much on the block and I was like

13:06

let me just sit and listen. Come

13:08

on it's so good.

13:09

It was like a sermon. What were some of the frequency

13:12

that you guys would meet with those guys. I mean I think we

13:14

have those kind of like peer relationships that maybe

13:16

in ministry we're talking like you know every couple of weeks

13:18

or like every month like are these things that you guys

13:21

you have like an annual or like a twice a

13:23

year thing to me. Dr. Dre them and you guys are

13:25

meeting or like what does that.

13:26

Look like it's like a frequency kind of a thing. Well

13:29

you know honestly. It was all organic.

13:31

Because sometimes the greatest conversations

13:35

aren't planned. It's over

13:37

there to see him like hey doc how are you doing today. He like

13:39

yeah he's like going through the

13:42

newspaper look at his stocks and I'm like oh so

13:44

what's what's that about.

13:45

And just let him go. It was like there was a book

13:48

that was amazing. I loved it it was called like Tuesdays

13:50

with Morrie.

13:51

Yeah yeah yeah. Look

13:54

and I was like I I'm going to go find me a. Yeah

13:57

go listen to that and I mean

13:59

this guy had a schedule you know he was he's a

14:01

retired dentist but it was just when I had time

14:03

when he hit I have a guy who's.

14:07

I have had both sides like we had Dave.

14:09

It was very scheduled like it

14:11

was like twice or twice a month at

14:14

the Greek restaurant. And that

14:16

was because. I wanted to respect

14:18

his. Time and I wanted

14:20

his time. So it was like Hey

14:22

Dave. Tell me what time works for you.

14:25

Can you give that to me twice a month and two

14:27

that allowed me to prepare so that I wasn't going

14:29

in like literally hey I got some things

14:31

I want to talk about like I literally have two

14:34

questions written down on a piece of paper. And

14:36

I'd sit him. It wasn't like I wasn't trying

14:38

to act like I had it all together I would put the paper

14:41

next to me. Next my salad I know it's hard

14:43

to believe I ever eat a salad. Well like I put

14:45

the paper next to me and I would asking

14:47

those two questions but two

14:50

questions. Were they all of the some of the questions. No. Every

14:52

time I met with them to be different breed different question

14:54

you got to sample that one of them was you know

14:56

how do you behave in a. Them

14:59

just sort of. I had one was like How do you behave

15:01

in a. Meeting

15:03

that you shouldn't be in. Like immediately you've been

15:05

invited into. But you know you like

15:07

you don't have any credibility to actually be there.

15:10

OK. You know and. And

15:12

that happens from time to time where it's like your

15:14

lead guy or your boss somebody

15:16

is like hey just come in and sit in on this meeting.

15:19

And I think. And this is some of Dave's vices

15:21

like if somebody has asked you to be in the meeting. You've

15:23

been asked to be in the meeting too. To add

15:26

to the meeting. You don't sit there

15:28

and not say anything anything. OK. Because

15:30

someone's watching you and going. Why

15:33

was that person in here and didn't say anything

15:35

at all. Yes. Also

15:38

you would like don't go in there and run your

15:40

mouth. He's like really his old there was like he's

15:42

like pick your moments. OK

15:45

your moments. He taught me a lot about

15:47

of. Timing. So

15:50

there will be some meetings that I'm going to that I

15:52

literally will set a stopwatch.

15:55

On my phone. And I wouldn't

15:57

talk until the. Timer hit

15:59

a certain time because I'm like well he's really I'm

16:01

like I got to talk first I gotta say I've got to say you

16:04

know you don't need me to establish

16:06

myself as as an intelligent person

16:08

in this. So it was it was it

16:11

was some of those. One of them. Another time

16:13

I was asking them just straight up McMann me

16:15

and my wife get into some arguments about some stuff

16:18

like the dumbest stuff ever been there. Like

16:20

support your wife your girlfriend if wasn't

16:23

really close to you and you get into a conversation

16:25

an argument about. Fanciful

16:28

things like things that aren't reality like

16:30

hey what would you do with a million dollars. I

16:32

remember that specifically. I mean we're driving and.

16:36

We see a blurry sign and I'm like oh

16:38

this be cool like we're going to like Interac like

16:41

what would be what would you do with 10 million dollars.

16:44

And she started saying some stuff and I'm like.

16:47

And I. Instead of just thinking and I said I'm like that's

16:49

completely like. Makes no

16:52

sense. That's not a wise choice of money. Rather

16:54

that it is that we get a huge fight. And

16:57

I meet with Dave and Tony Davis and he goes

17:00

Carl in every situation. You got to

17:02

ask yourself this particular you sent. Is

17:04

it. Caught. Is it going to cost you

17:06

money right then in there. And

17:08

I'm like No. Is

17:11

it going to hurt. Your.

17:14

Your family if she

17:16

says something outlandish. No.

17:20

So he's like. Then don't stop it.

17:23

And it was like groundbreaking to me because I'm

17:25

like oh my gosh. Like it's

17:27

OK for us to watch house hunters and her

17:29

like a different house than I do. And

17:33

that's it. I don't know. This is just too

17:35

obvious. And it's like it's OK for us

17:37

to watch you know fixer upper and not like

17:39

the backsplash and not

17:41

get into an argument about it. And so it

17:44

was just that O.G. kind of like knowledge

17:47

of like how to have a healthy relationship without

17:49

getting lost in the silliness.

17:51

So I remember those two questions specifically what

17:54

will give us a little bit.

17:55

I know that when you're not when you're

17:57

not youth minister and you're trained

17:59

and you're in the gym you're doing.

18:00

And so like there's got to be some principles

18:02

from there of you know of

18:05

not having the coach but also being

18:07

a coach that I think like No way.

18:10

So we talk a little bit about just that. Well

18:14

from my little time in the gym I know that

18:16

it's not really good Dalila. And I

18:18

could totally put up that number. Like no you guys

18:21

are going to hurt yourselves. So give me give

18:23

me some wisdom from the gym of like what it's like to be coached

18:25

in that way of like being real with what

18:27

was actually working and not working and

18:29

why you need to have someone that actually can fully

18:32

assess where you're actually at. Well you

18:34

know one of the things that I absolutely love and you think

18:36

about scripture is Jesus

18:38

never healed anybody that said they were OK.

18:41

Like he didn't he didn't if you were like damn good he was like No no

18:43

no. I know there's something wrong with you. Yeah.

18:46

And in understanding and training a

18:49

lot of times when I'm with my clients I'm like you've

18:51

got to tell me whether this is working or if it's not

18:53

working. If it's too easy or if it's too difficult

18:56

and what it does is it creates conversation.

18:58

I think personal trainers are also like.

19:01

Iyanla Vanzant like half of my life. 60

19:04

percent of what I do in the gym is

19:07

like life coaching. Like yes.

19:09

Here's what's really going on with me. OK

19:12

so let's get through. I think when it comes

19:14

to training and being transparent

19:16

is there has to be those that part where it's

19:18

going to challenge me not the

19:21

thing and training cut plateauing. And

19:23

so like I do several different

19:25

things I'll do crossfade I'll do hit workouts

19:27

I'll do cardio workouts I'll do just straight lifting

19:30

or do Pyramid's because if you consistently

19:33

do the same thing it's like nothing changes

19:35

if nothing changes. We

19:37

have to switch the way

19:40

we do things in order for us to get greater results.

19:43

With that being said. That transparency

19:45

has to be. This has gotten too easy. Or

19:48

I've gotten too comfortable so I need to

19:50

be challenged. I have to do it differently.

19:53

I've got to go over to the equipment that look scary

19:56

because it may get me to a place

19:58

that I need to go.

20:00

Well you know what hurts so many people is

20:02

no one likes to be uncomfortable

20:05

riding around really like just a new challenge. Everybody

20:08

wants to like you but

20:10

you want but you want the you

20:13

want the results right. Right.

20:15

What it's of what is what it's going to give you.

20:17

I think T.D. Jakes was talking about.

20:20

Every Thede has to be broken before

20:22

it can create for.

20:24

Yeah. And so we don't want to be broken.

20:26

We don't want to be challenged. We don't want to

20:28

go through anything. But just as the seed

20:30

is planted it has to be broken that it has to burrow

20:33

through the ground before he even use the

20:35

sun. So if we know that a C has

20:37

to go through all that for it to create fruit

20:40

why are we afraid to go through all that

20:42

for us to have fruit our own lives have

20:44

those moments of challenge and and discomfort

20:47

for us to have growth and prosperity.

20:48

And you know it's happening now. Michael Mike

20:51

Todd he just took this quote

20:53

quote that I it's my quote. So I don't

20:55

know how he got it but

20:57

just all it really is and it bothers me.

21:00

But but I'm going to get over it. Don't mistake

21:02

planted for buried mistakes that

21:05

where you are and what you're going through right

21:07

now is the end of

21:09

it. Even though it seems so hard

21:11

even so it seems so difficult. Even though you

21:13

feel like you're so far into the

21:15

background of things and you

21:18

had the thing about having that honest voice

21:20

in your life they're going to tell you. You're

21:22

not. Buried you're just

21:25

planted like your land and

21:27

you're deep right now. Like let's

21:29

even put more into the botany in

21:31

the arbours stuff in the

21:34

desert or I'm going to extend it I'm

21:36

going extend it like

21:38

up here in northern California where I live. You get these

21:40

giant redwoods right. These monster sequoias.

21:44

Why they've been standing for literally

21:46

2000 3000 years since the time

21:48

of Christ. These trees have been standing not just

21:50

because of their girth and their height but

21:53

it's because of the depths of their roots.

21:55

But then here's the greatest part. The roots are

21:58

intertwined. Yeah roots are

22:01

intertwined. When I learned this I was blown away. It's

22:04

like you have these giant trees and the reason they

22:06

don't go down that easily because.

22:09

In the bottom so they might be standing

22:11

there tall alone. But.

22:13

Underneath the ground. They are supporting

22:16

and holding up each other and

22:18

that's just where that deep rich

22:21

rich friendship those deep rich conversations

22:24

come from and allowing someone into that space.

22:27

That you want anybody and you know like you

22:30

said this early on is act like the person who

22:32

it might be happens chance when I think

22:34

of this of a happenstance. Conversation

22:37

changed my life literally changed my life. I'm

22:39

ready to quit ministry. This is. Ten

22:42

years ago. I'm literally

22:44

ready to quit ministry. I'm at a conference

22:46

speaking at a conference. And

22:49

I meet these two guys. I'll say their names because

22:51

they're awesome dudes. Jeff

22:53

Snodgrass and drew more.

22:55

Drew just became lead pastor of a church in Vegas.

22:58

Jeff Selee pastor now of a church in Pasadena.

23:00

Both these dudes but their youth pastor at a time. I

23:03

don't know them from Adam. It's like

23:05

1:00 on 12 13 night and they're like

23:08

Hey dude you want to go get a burrito. Like remember

23:10

I tell you I'm an introvert and I'm

23:12

like No I do not want to go get a burrito like

23:14

I want to. I don't know you. I don't know why

23:16

would I was like you know I want to go back to my room. And

23:20

there wasn't that. I just want to go sit in a

23:22

room. But anyways I end up going

23:24

out with these guys and this

23:26

is the I'm going to get really spiritual. This

23:28

is the one honest voice we only listen to the

23:30

Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit.

23:32

I just remember as clear as day. Speaking

23:35

and Mike's being to my consciousness goes. Tell him.

23:38

And I just on the loan on

23:40

these two. Right. Right. Right. This

23:43

is what's going on and I don't want to be administrative of

23:45

a puppet but then I just said this this

23:48

this this question I asked him I said. What

23:51

do you think I should. Go. And it was

23:53

like the most honest question I've asked in.

23:56

And these do just schools

23:58

me for like three hours. Could you

24:00

not for like three hours and spoken

24:02

to my wife and didn't give me like final

24:05

direction. But I remember Jeff specifically tell me hey

24:08

I want you to go and meditate for one

24:10

month. On someone thirty nine. You

24:12

know search my heart. No my anxious thoughts. And

24:15

he's like I want you to read any other scripture but

24:17

that scripture for the next month and continue every day ask

24:19

God to illuminate and speak. But it was

24:21

so cool about that was I was honest

24:24

with the spirit of speaking inside me. And

24:26

then I was honest with someone that I didn't

24:28

have to worry about. My

24:31

position my platform.

24:33

You know I mean like because they were straight

24:36

they were strangers but I knew that they

24:38

were. Wise people in

24:40

their own context. It allowed just this

24:42

just this easiness. In

24:44

the conversation because because really there's there's nothing

24:46

to hide with someone you don't know. You

24:49

know I mean like I don't I don't I don't know if you guys ever

24:51

had a past life but like before I was a pastor

24:53

and I'd be I'd be like

24:55

at a bar or something. I

24:58

would talk to anyone at a bar. And

25:00

tell them all types of crazy stuff

25:02

about me. Because I knew. I'd

25:04

never see you again. How does he. Know.

25:07

Well I don't know that. Earlier that I liked

25:09

you saying Having someone that's light years

25:11

ahead of you.

25:12

But I also think there's like there's a beauty

25:15

in someone who may not be where you

25:17

are who may be behind where you are and you still

25:19

growing from them having the

25:21

availability to say hey you may not be in the same

25:23

position I am you may be younger than me or

25:25

not as a couple. I could still grow from you. I

25:29

get that. Like I totally get it. And

25:31

even like you said talked about with strangers. I

25:33

was just in Florida at flavor

25:35

fest and I was supposed to have my own

25:37

room but. You know I said God doesn't

25:40

do anything by happenstance or chance of

25:42

getting a. Guy by name Ishaan

25:44

Finner he's out there in California

25:46

too and he just starts unloading

25:49

on me about the stuff that he's doing in ministry. Now

25:51

we have to be careful when we allow people to speak

25:53

to us that we don't get him dated

25:56

by what they're doing because it might be God

25:58

pushing or challenging you to say you can

26:00

do this too. And so being

26:02

in the audience of him involves another guy Larry Acosta.

26:05

I was hanging out with Larry. Larry

26:07

is a homie. Not at all. Right. You can't

26:09

get in there and be intimidated. Well I haven't done

26:11

what they've done. Well maybe I should look

26:13

at it this way. I have three

26:16

kids. I would never take my kids

26:18

to toys r us and be like hey pick

26:20

out pick out the toys you want. All right. Play with them.

26:22

That's all. Are you having a great time. Good. Put them back

26:25

on the shelf. Let's go right. You

26:27

know I think what God does with us

26:29

is he gives us things and allows us to

26:31

be in the audience of things or even touch in and

26:33

explore some things because he's like you need to see

26:35

what I'm going to give you in some time. So

26:38

here's your chance. Yeah. Frak. Right.

26:40

So you have to be in in these

26:42

places where people are feeding you and

26:45

talking to you and sharing and challenging

26:47

and you're like oh OK. And not be intimidated

26:49

by it would be like OK I see you're stretching me a little bit.

26:51

And when you get in those settings it's a.

26:54

It's being wise with what

26:57

I am what am I really trying to get out

26:59

of this because I think that's the key. It's

27:01

like yeah I think for all of us it's never

27:03

about what it's about. So it's like if

27:06

I'm sitting there I'm going to should Larry. You

27:08

know and Larry such a brilliant

27:11

leader. When you when you're talking about urban

27:14

urban ministry imagery in general I get

27:16

into that conversation. I got to ask myself OK am

27:18

I going to get in this conversation to try to get.

27:20

An edge up to try to get like oh

27:23

I know Larry or I know Muzak

27:25

or whatever it is or am I going to insert

27:27

myself to really gleans something

27:30

and this is something like. You know I get it

27:32

off. Awesome opportunity to coach them coaching

27:34

younger leaders and different stuff and it's like I

27:36

love watching you go what are you trying to get out

27:38

of this. What out of this with your relationship

27:40

with me. What are you trying to get out of this really low

27:42

relation with others. More often than not.

27:45

Most of the folks I meet with what they want

27:47

to know for me is like Carl how do you get

27:49

people to pay you to do things. You

27:51

know I mean because they see people paying me to do things

27:53

and I'm like bro this is 16 years later.

27:56

Like I'm saying life. I have. No one

27:58

was paying me. Fourteen years ago

28:00

ten years ago. You know I mean like I was I

28:03

was just playing dodgeball with some

28:05

kids in a warehouse like just like that. So

28:08

it's I think that's so key of like when you enter

28:10

into somebody into some of these conversations and these

28:12

relationships is coming in with

28:14

a with pure heart and pure motives

28:17

where it's like hey I'm not trying to like

28:19

level up. In my

28:21

conversation because that's a key and any

28:24

leader out there listen to this. Know this. The

28:26

person you're talking to. Knows you're

28:28

using them a level up like

28:32

I'm telling you they know you're using

28:34

them to level up. So next time you go to orange

28:36

conference or or Cavalier's or whatever

28:38

it is you go to. People

28:41

know you're trying to level up for them. But but

28:43

then people also know the person that they're.

28:46

Truly trying to be a learner and

28:48

trying to be teachable and and to

28:50

the heart of this conversation is trying to have an

28:53

honest conversation within limits.

28:55

Like. I don't I

28:57

don't love when I'm at a conference and somebody just runs

28:59

up to me and it's like hey this

29:01

is what's going on in my life. Yeah

29:05

having some. What's your name. Yeah yeah yeah.

29:08

I mean it was that you just find this competition

29:11

I think back. To last year when we were at.

29:14

Youth Specialties and I met this couple

29:16

who. They were so honest

29:18

and I missed a whole session because.

29:21

My wife and I actually just sat

29:23

there with them and talked a life

29:25

and talked the for like they were like. An

29:28

hour and a half into ministry and in a tough

29:31

situation. And it was and they were so honest.

29:33

But they were really trying to seek some. I had

29:36

a boss who told me he was like never

29:38

come into a meeting empty handed.

29:40

And the thing was it's like we get these nuggets

29:43

and you never know where it's going to come from. And

29:45

you know thank God for the advance in technology

29:47

we can just pull your phone out and

29:50

you know right click copy and paste like

29:52

you can have. Always be prepared

29:55

to learn because when you

29:57

have that that. Mindset

29:59

of I'm going to learn something from anything.

30:02

You can go there. Yeah. Because

30:04

I think that you might need to hear the thing that you didn't come

30:07

in looking for. Right that's what that means. Right. The

30:09

blinders of like Karl teach

30:11

me this will give me and you like you

30:14

do. It was never about that like what you

30:16

were looking for to build your platform

30:18

or be a better speaker or get a better gig may

30:20

really come back to like the discipline that you lack

30:23

right. Listen

30:25

you always know you don't get to hear

30:28

at the level that you two guys do without us.

30:30

We will how many blog posts have you written that haven't

30:33

been read until the one got read. Right. Like

30:35

how many small things have you shared. Many many

30:38

breakouts have done it for eight people before you got to be honest.

30:40

Eight hundred people right like hundred percent like guys

30:43

like you. The thing that you want is

30:45

like it it may be a simpler answer than you were

30:47

looking for. And if you aren't ready to hear

30:49

it then Missy bolt crack in the roots

30:51

won't take because she wanted the fix

30:54

instead of actually wanting what I had to say.

30:56

Which means away with you. And

30:59

that's. And that's how they got that going.

31:02

OK. Well this is funny. It's

31:04

like dodgeball podcasting.

31:09

I'm totally right click copy and paste in what you talked

31:11

about the roots. Because it's cool to think

31:13

that they're down there really deep but that they're

31:15

connected as well. So

31:17

it's having that not only that

31:19

deepness but that connection at the at the bottom

31:22

of it. Right.

31:25

I've got I got this I got a really close

31:27

friend who we were just together

31:30

maybe two weeks ago. And. This

31:33

is the other piece is. We'll

31:35

kind of go back to that Jonathan David. Illustration

31:38

you use is pushing.

31:41

For the honest conversation. So

31:44

like we're really close and we talk about everything.

31:47

Like I mean like we talk about everything.

31:50

And I sense in our conversation

31:53

I was like we're not there yet. Like

31:55

I was like we're just not there to

31:57

that honesty level that I know we need to be

32:00

because I know what's going on his life and I know what's going on in my life.

32:02

And we're kind of like dancing around the thing

32:05

because we're homies we're a way for hanging out

32:07

and I just kept pushing and pushing and I'm like.

32:10

Nope. Nope nope. And then

32:12

we broke through. And it was.

32:14

This amazing conversation

32:16

of growth for both of us because

32:19

I wasn't going to allow it just. And

32:21

again. Having the right person. Both

32:23

of you know when that time is to push

32:26

a person to some and deeper levels

32:28

of levels of honesty so I think it's. Key

32:30

to to have somebody you know you got you got the you got

32:32

the Paul Timothy. Barnabus

32:36

relationship. But it's like I think that's that's why it's

32:38

so cool to have that person who's who's a contemporary

32:40

of yours that you're like I know I can push you I

32:43

can push you to deeper levels of honesty. Because.

32:46

And you're not trying to oppress me I'm not trying to press

32:48

you we're both trying to kind of move along together

32:51

and you're not trying to teach me. Where

32:53

you know that's not really sure what that was with

32:55

the Timothy. So it's like. But I know

32:57

we're just going to kind of go after this go after this

32:59

again. So that that piece is just really

33:02

really key I think of having that person that's walking

33:05

alongside of you. I think I think you might imagine that

33:07

will like at the same level. Yeah.

33:10

Yeah that that's been a big plus for

33:12

me. OK. All good

33:14

stuff and impressed and a little bit.

33:17

What do you do for the folks that are here

33:19

and you say this but the last time they were

33:21

open with somebody they got burned because

33:23

they shared honestly and

33:26

someone used it against them either to not

33:28

hire or to. You know I'm the

33:30

guy that was your reference.

33:31

They knew too much about you that

33:34

maybe spoke you know again. They picked you

33:36

picked the wrong person. Right. Like you wanted to be honest

33:39

you wanted to get there. You pick the wrong coach

33:41

you picked the wrong person. How do you mend

33:43

back Carl you share a little earlier that maybe this is not

33:45

like your natural kind of position these

33:48

folks. And will you work. A lot of people maybe you've

33:51

seen this play out. How do we help the person

33:53

that maybe is like guys I hear you're saying. But

33:55

the last time I opened up to somebody that was in temporary

33:58

or somebody that was younger than me and shared my struggles

34:00

they got thrown back in my face. So how

34:02

do.

34:04

You got. It's it's prayerfully

34:06

considering who the person is like

34:09

me. The reason I don't have a lot of people is

34:12

is a protection too. I

34:14

think you see that the the the more

34:16

people and this isn't me but I'm just saying. Well

34:18

watch us. The. The

34:20

the more. Influence

34:23

someone gets. I think that's some all of their circle

34:25

gets Yeah. And

34:28

and and I think that's a protected it's you don't

34:30

want to be completely insulated but you need a safe

34:33

place and a protected place. The

34:35

the flipside of that coin is I think sometimes

34:38

when we're just trying to. Build

34:40

our level of Influence we'll

34:42

talk to anybody. And

34:45

that's I feel sometimes is the

34:48

is the Achilles heel of a lot of young

34:50

and developing leaders is I've maybe

34:53

talked to too many people and I

34:55

don't understand where our relationship really

34:57

is at. I haven't been honest with

34:59

myself to go that person doesn't really know me. They've

35:02

got a snapshot of me whether it's six months of

35:04

working for him or is a conversation here comes just

35:06

like. You know we're

35:08

in a different kind of setting so I'm seeing a

35:10

lot of. Applications and

35:13

resumes across my desk pretty often. And

35:16

when I call some of these references I'm like. Why

35:18

would you use icons. Why would you have

35:20

ever put this person on a reference like

35:24

this. You know but I

35:26

think it's sometimes we're not thinking

35:28

if I if I can just be brutally honest you're

35:30

not thinking and you're not thinking.

35:33

Is this the right person for me. Does

35:35

this person really know me or

35:37

do I think. This is just the best

35:40

look the person to put out

35:42

there so I would say. If you've gotten burned

35:44

before I would really go back

35:46

to the heart of that relationship and that

35:49

connection. And it's being mindful of the people.

35:52

You let speak into your life. Who are the voices

35:54

you speak into that.

35:56

That to me is just is just is just critical.

36:00

Of just getting that getting the right. Was this ill will how

36:02

would you answer that. I mean my

36:05

mind is running right here I'm kind of like

36:07

I have like a little notepad and everything but

36:09

felt. Three things that I wanted to say real quick

36:13

one when you move or

36:15

when you're trying to unpack our fun word for today

36:17

is there's a reason that we

36:19

hire professionals to help us move right.

36:22

Because it helps your friends help you unpack or

36:25

pack your issues. There's a chance some stuff

36:27

is broken. I love it. Oh

36:29

that's good. Ask who

36:31

we allow to help us unpack. But

36:33

then even after you figured that out.

36:36

Be mindful of where you are.

36:39

My little son. Oh yes.

36:41

That right was sick right the other day your

36:43

kiddos are is. I

36:46

came out with this thought. Be careful where you vomit

36:48

because it might make you feel better. It's

36:51

going to make the people around you sick. Right that's

36:53

right. It has. There's a place for that right. You

36:55

can't just ogen Coger issues

36:57

everywhere because although you feel better

36:59

because like oh god I got that off my chest. Now

37:02

people around you like oh my god I can't believe you did that.

37:04

Right.

37:05

There. I think that as much as we are

37:07

transparent with our friends we must also

37:09

and I had to do it.

37:10

I blocked it for a while because it was that. And I'll

37:13

say it like that black culture of I don't need to know talk

37:15

to no doctor about my issues. You know I just want to

37:17

do it right and that's good.

37:19

But there is a place where we need to actually

37:21

engage professionals people

37:23

who are licensed to hear

37:26

what we're talking about and it help us to use

37:29

our magic word again unpack our feelings.

37:31

Right. I think about the demoniac who was

37:33

in who had all these demons

37:36

he was cutting himself. And they said they

37:38

would they would put him in chains. I wonder

37:40

if the people he was trying to say listen I'm

37:42

going through some stuff we're like yeah we're just going to give

37:44

you this temporary solution. Come

37:47

on a simple fix. But it wasn't

37:49

until he had an encounter with Christ

37:51

Ray. It wasn't until he had this encounter with

37:53

God that his chains were broken and

37:56

they even didn't catch this. Catch this he

37:58

tried to he was like yo I want to go with you I

38:00

want to run away because the people who are who

38:02

I thought could fix me just kept me bound.

38:05

So I want to run away. I want to quit. I want to give

38:07

up.

38:08

And what did he do. She sent him back. He was

38:10

like no go home. Go

38:12

home and go home. And so you

38:15

know in that understanding of that transparency

38:17

and finding people that you talk to may consider

38:20

fining a professional because sometimes your hobbies

38:22

your crew they are

38:24

going to give you the message of as you are. Where

38:29

you've never been.

38:31

Right. Right. And

38:33

also. And

38:36

I say this as a husband. I.

38:38

Don't neglect the people that are in your own house.

38:41

Sometimes life is like talk to me. Tell

38:43

me what's going on in your life when you're not going staying.

38:46

Well give me a chance to try. And

38:49

end it. And it's going to level it.

38:51

It's never about what it's about. Being honest

38:53

with yourself and going a level deeper

38:56

than it is. So like. If I

38:58

come out of a I come home and I'm ticked

39:00

off because something happened in a meeting.

39:03

Yeah I could talk to Jen about. That

39:06

issue or I can be on this

39:08

and go. You know what. I

39:11

feel like I've been overlooked.

39:14

That's a whole different conversation

39:16

and when I'm like I feel like I've been overlooked

39:19

that this is this vulnerability that's transparency

39:22

with your spouse. And now it's not

39:24

like oh it's it's Curt's problem.

39:26

Of course my boss like this is a current

39:29

issue. None of it gets real quick the way it's like. No

39:31

this is my issue. Jenna I

39:33

went through. I went through. Counseling

39:36

for a season. And.

39:39

It was all we ever talked to carry our

39:41

counselor about was it was never about what we

39:43

thought it was about walk in his compositions because

39:45

we were willing to say we were willing to be

39:48

honest. And again everything came down to daddy

39:50

issues right. That's all I'll save

39:52

you 50 bucks you got daddy issues. Everyone you got too

39:56

much or not enough. Got it. Exactly exactly.

39:58

Somewhere it's somewhere on it. But that

40:00

was so easy for us

40:03

just to be honest a love that will win

40:05

when you're in with the who's close to you

40:07

and again. God.

40:10

Has. You clear your

40:12

leaving and Cleveland. And then the two become one

40:14

and I think that's in everything. It's

40:17

like there's not parts of me that Jen can't

40:19

know there's not parts of me that her that

40:21

I can't know. So the ugly

40:23

parts the broken parts the the

40:25

insignificant shallow parts the

40:28

insecure parts. I've got to make those of those

40:30

aperta her. And then we got to a stage in our

40:32

marriage where it was like oh like you're saying

40:35

where we like. OK. We've taken

40:37

each other as far as we can take each other in this

40:40

conversation. Let's invite a professional in.

40:42

Her act to continue to walk with

40:44

us through this and it and

40:47

it was. It was brilliant what we actually did

40:49

was. We would do sessions

40:51

we would. We were going like. Twice

40:54

a month actually one season we're going

40:56

every week. But I would do one where I would go

40:58

general go then we would go. Like.

41:01

And it was like. It

41:03

was brilliant. Like sometimes like

41:06

she'd be like waiting for me out in the car. I'd come

41:08

back so happy would you guys talk was like

41:10

oh man. I told her that you're a train wreck

41:12

you know and she would she'd come out of her

41:15

session. And I want you guys to mention I

41:17

told her that you're a train wreck and then it

41:20

was just it was just so. Good.

41:22

And you've heard this outage but it's

41:24

like. It's not just when things are falling

41:27

apart. It's not just in crisis

41:29

that you'd go for that for that for that professional

41:31

look. It's like a car

41:33

like right. You take your car and when it goes

41:36

to 3000 miles no matter what. I'm like I

41:38

go I've got the oil change I'm. I'm going to

41:40

maintenance this car. You got a maintenance your

41:42

heart. Got to meet into relationships and

41:45

it's like get in there before you need to

41:47

be in there. You know I mean that's when you

41:49

can really really really really do that work. Well.

41:52

The final wasn't at all 88. I

41:55

also like how you said you mean you've got to

41:57

you know ask God to show you who to speak to you know

41:59

what does. What does is they try to spirit

42:02

by the spirit.

42:03

You know not not everybody you talk to needs

42:05

to listen right now and

42:07

just because they have something to say doesn't mean it's something

42:09

worth saying. So you got to talk

42:11

to people that you know can not only. Be

42:14

able to hear what you have to say and understand

42:16

it but can also provides of quality feedback.

42:19

And I mean we do sometimes we unload on the wrong

42:21

quote and we're like oh that was wrong and

42:24

I'm going to play it. Again.

42:29

Yeah right. But it happens

42:31

right. Your heart gets broken but

42:34

you learn.

42:35

And if you don't learn from what I think I said

42:37

the other day how many times you got to fall for

42:39

you to stop trippin. Where

42:44

can you unload stuff. I'm like a book of small

42:47

quotes. But you are you're very good at the as

42:50

good feel like a living Twitter. I like

42:53

it always. Hackers

42:55

are like negative.

42:57

Well guys it's been super helpful conversations

42:59

were powerful conversation and the things that I'm hearing are

43:02

you to have the people you know the people at different levels

43:04

whether that's you know like at the same level one

43:07

step ahead steps just where you were

43:09

to share that wisdom that helps capsule

43:11

for you is like man this is what I've learning to pass

43:13

on.

43:14

You have folks that are visionary for your life that are way

43:17

down the road not just about like what's in front

43:19

of you but you want to be. But the

43:21

thing that I hear is cultish ramping up with is

43:23

that we need to be evaluative not just of

43:26

ourselves but the people that are in relationship with us and

43:29

that some really should run their season. And some

43:31

folks that need to have come fill in a spot in our

43:33

life. For a particular reason and

43:35

if we to be honest enough. We know

43:37

where we're at and where we're not. And

43:39

that's a really really important thing. We

43:41

want leadership in the kind of ministry

43:44

leadership. But just for the pursuit of life

43:47

having the right kind of people that will speak

43:49

truth to us that we're ready to hear. So.

43:52

I don't want to Taggerty a thing at the end last of

43:54

closing thoughts.

43:58

We'll mean all those tweets. I

44:02

want to say this we didn't talk about you could probably add or

44:04

subtract that shirt on the outskirts go. I

44:06

know growing and youth ministry I

44:09

would get so frustrated at my senior

44:11

pastor I was like I wish you would just talk to me.

44:13

Can we have a conversation and you tell me that

44:15

I'm OK and then I'm doing a job in ministry

44:17

and sometimes senior pastors not going to

44:19

do that. And you have to be.

44:22

Not only. Confident in the work that

44:24

you're doing but that there are other people

44:27

who will tell you you're doing a good job

44:29

and even if they don't because sometimes

44:31

I've realized in growing and doing ministries that there's a

44:33

lot of youth pastors that are angry because they feel like their youth

44:35

their senior pastor won't have a conversation

44:38

with them if that is the

44:40

issue. So you

44:42

know. I was just sharing

44:44

this in a breakout with exactly

44:46

what you said. But the reason.

44:48

This is not always a reason but sometimes this is the reason

44:51

they're not engaging you. Not

44:54

because they don't trust you. It's actually the flip

44:56

side. They can actually

44:58

trust you. And they finally

45:00

got there. And you don't even

45:03

realize it. They actually think you are the expert.

45:05

You know they're like I don't need to jump

45:07

into Will's thing I don't need to jump in calls

45:10

thing Jackson like they got

45:12

it and you're looking for that affirmation.

45:14

Like look at me Dad I'm doing a good job.

45:17

And then like I do. I do good. And

45:19

it's like no no because I'm not saying

45:22

anything to you. Yes know that. That's

45:24

my trust in you. And

45:26

again I think it's having that internal conversation

45:29

with yourself and having those folks

45:31

with you to be like bro you're good. You're

45:34

good. Yeah that's why he's not that's why she's

45:36

not leaning in right now. Like no news

45:39

is no news is good news. You know I

45:42

didn't end up on your Wednesday because she did

45:44

a good job. I just dress

45:47

that because there's. I seriously see it up often

45:49

so often they're like Man I'm leaving

45:52

care and I'm like yes. That means they do care

45:54

like they're doing things they like they're doing

45:56

they're doing their job. You're

46:00

OK. Like move forward. Yeah. Yup yup

46:03

yup. But again I think that's that's

46:05

at security and self security and calling

46:07

you to go and to know that

46:09

I've got I've got that thing going on. But

46:12

to the point of our conversation like if

46:14

you feel like you need that.

46:17

Validation a there's something there to

46:20

be like you said we'll like now seek

46:22

someone out. That's. Going

46:24

to. That's going to constantly walk

46:26

with you through that that you can ask

46:28

for that feedback that you can engage

46:30

in that conversation and that person knows

46:33

they're entering that relationship. I wouldn't say this

46:35

either. I think you've got to. Have

46:37

that where it's like. Hey. Zach.

46:40

I'm going to come to you once in a while. Because

46:42

I want. Some feedback

46:44

from you because I want you to step

46:47

in. It's just a homey talking.

46:50

I think when people know that they're one of the voices

46:53

that helps them to decipher

46:55

the conversation and go Oh look we're

46:57

in that zone right now. We're not just kicking it. We're

46:59

in that zone where we're calmly something we will need

47:01

something that makes sense. I think you've got to have

47:03

those clearly defined relationships. And

47:05

the other person is I don't know that they're that voice to their

47:08

voice.

47:08

Good man this is going to be some good talks.

47:11

You've got to fire mad you

47:13

wrote some breaking the today. Here you go.

47:17

We need to talk.

47:22

All right. There you go. That's our fun conversation

47:24

with a will in Carl about honesty

47:27

in youth ministry. Really just life.

47:30

So the people that you need to have the focus to

47:32

be listen to the questions you will be asking

47:34

the way she'd be listening and then

47:36

getting routed down deep where

47:39

you've been planted. All great stuff if you want to check

47:41

out more.

47:41

Good evening she booster dotcom. Learn

47:43

how you can be a part of the network where conversations

47:46

like these are happening on the regular.

47:48

Thank you so much for listening. We love

47:51

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47:53

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47:55

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47:58

again for listening who contribute your podcast.

48:00

We'll see you back next week. Hide.