0:15

Hi everybody, I'm

0:15

Jay Worthy and this is 28

0:17

summers, the podcast for anyone

0:17

trying to inject some adventure,

0:21

purpose and balance into their

0:21

lives. 28 summers is all about

0:25

living life adventurously

0:25

seizing the moment and

0:28

optimising your life. And in

0:28

this second season, I'm building

0:32

upon the messages in season one,

0:32

with the help of a series of

0:35

awesome guests who are all in

0:35

their own individual ways,

0:38

living life to the full

0:38

following their passions, and

0:41

living an adventurous life every

0:41

single day. And my guest today

0:46

is Mike cabina. He spent 10

0:46

years as a management consultant

0:50

advising CEOs and senior

0:50

executives of Fortune 1000

0:53

companies. Mike later left

0:53

consulting to get into the

0:56

fitness industry, a space he had

0:56

a growing passion and energy to

1:00

explore. And after spending time

1:00

working as a personal trainer,

1:03

he went on to work as a senior

1:03

leader for one of the world's

1:06

largest fitness companies. As we

1:06

talked about in this episode,

1:09

Mike later found himself an

1:09

unexpected crossroads, and he

1:13

bravely decided that that was

1:13

the exact moment he had to focus

1:17

on re centering his life around

1:17

his calling. Over the following

1:20

months, he found it back to the

1:20

breath with a powerful mission

1:23

of helping people discover inner

1:23

freedom and pursuing a life of

1:27

fulfilment through

1:27

transformative breathwork and

1:29

meditation. He's also pursuing a

1:29

new career in life coaching and

1:34

recently authored the book what

1:34

is your calling the journey to

1:37

find work you love. And as if

1:37

that wasn't enough goodness. He

1:41

is also the host of the back to

1:41

the breath podcast, which is a

1:44

must listen, when he's not

1:44

writing or recording his

1:46

podcast, or guiding people in

1:46

breathwork and meditation. He

1:50

spends quality time with his

1:50

wife, son, and new baby

1:53

daughter. Mike is not only a

1:53

great friend of mine, but he is

1:56

also someone who I have relied

1:56

on over the years for advice and

2:00

guidance. He is a truly awesome

2:00

human being. And I feel blessed

2:04

to be able to call him a friend.

2:04

I really enjoyed recording this

2:07

interview and listening to Mike

2:07

and all his words of wisdom. I

2:11

hope you enjoy this episode as

2:11

much as I did. Get ready for

2:14

some serious introspection. Welcome back to the 28 summers

2:32

podcast. I'm really excited to

2:35

have a guest with me today. Mike

2:35

Cavanaugh. So Mike, welcome to

2:39

the 28 summers podcast.

2:41

Thank you. It's so good to be here.

2:43

And this is a

2:43

momentous moment for us. Because

2:47

you were in the room when the

2:47

idea for the 28 summers podcast

2:51

was, was born back in 2018. I

2:51

told that story in in the pilot

2:56

episode for the podcast. So it's

2:56

great to finally be here with

3:00

you even though we're in

3:00

completely separate parts of the

3:03

world locked down under COVID

3:03

restrictions. I'm really excited

3:07

that you're here today. And

3:07

you're going to talk to us about

3:11

about your story and your 28

3:11

summers journey. So thank you

3:15

for being here. And there with

3:15

you, Mike, there are so many

3:18

places to start. I really, I

3:18

love your story. And you know,

3:22

we've we've known each other for

3:22

a long time. But before we get

3:24

going, I just first of all want

3:24

to officially congratulate you

3:28

because you've just become a father again.

3:30

Mm hmm.

3:31

So actually, the

3:31

most important question that I

3:33

can ask you on this podcast is

3:33

are you getting enough sleep

3:36

right?

3:38

with one eye open

3:38

like a cowboy? Yeah, you know,

3:43

I'm doing all right, I'd say my

3:43

wife is not doing as good. But I

3:47

am frequently seen with a cold,

3:47

half empty cup of coffee in one

3:52

hand.

3:53

Yeah, I can I can

3:53

imagine. Well, you know, all

3:56

power to you. I'm glad that

3:56

you're doing well. And it's it's

4:00

strange. I can imagine bringing

4:00

a baby into the world with

4:03

everything that's going on right

4:03

now. But I'm delighted that that

4:07

she arrived safely and that life

4:07

is treating you well.

4:10

Thank you.

4:11

So in terms of your

4:11

story, Mike, I, I I think I was

4:15

thinking about preparing for

4:15

this interview. And when I met

4:18

you, we kind of had a connection

4:18

straight away because I think we

4:22

we both liked, you know, fitness

4:22

and we're thinking about, you

4:26

know, our, our lives and how we

4:26

live them and our purpose and

4:31

all of those things. And when I

4:31

met you were kind of grappling a

4:33

little bit with corporate life

4:33

as well. And I think in those

4:37

early days, the idea had started

4:37

to surface about, you know, how

4:40

to find your calling and what

4:40

that meant. And and I think

4:43

that's, I know, that's become

4:43

the focus of your recently

4:47

launch book, which I absolutely

4:47

loved. I think I was officially

4:50

the first person to order it.

4:52

I believe you're right.

4:54

So I was hoping that

4:54

you can maybe start off by

4:56

telling us a little bit more

4:56

about the book and what made you

5:00

Write it.

5:01

Well, first of

5:01

all, I want to thank you for

5:03

actually reading it. It's hard

5:03

to get people to read a book,

5:07

they want a trophy when they

5:07

finish a book. So the book is

5:11

called What is your calling, the

5:11

journey to find work you love.

5:15

And it was, for me, it was

5:15

essentially born out of my

5:19

personal struggle with finding

5:19

what it is I should be doing

5:23

with my life, as you mentioned.

5:23

So the book, it's part, rallying

5:28

call to people, just get off the

5:28

hamster wheel, get going on your

5:32

life's work, you know, do what

5:32

you were put on this planet to

5:36

do. And specifically what I

5:36

wanted to do with the book,

5:39

having gone through such a

5:39

painful, slow process myself

5:43

where I was dragging my feet in

5:43

so many years, and so many

5:47

excuses, I wanted to create

5:47

something that was going to take

5:51

somebody, no matter where they

5:51

were in the journey. So even if

5:55

they were, like me, you know,

5:55

had no idea what they want to be

5:59

doing, but knew that it was not

5:59

the path they were on. I wanted

6:03

to create them with that actual

6:03

path to follow to unlock those

6:07

answers that you have that I

6:07

believe that you have within

6:10

your heart, and they just need

6:10

to be surfaced. And then from

6:14

there, it's bringing somebody to

6:14

Okay, yes, I can do this. And

6:19

then from there, it's even just

6:19

pushing you over the edge. So

6:21

people actually go for it.

6:23

That's great. And

6:23

like I said, it was it was a

6:25

really good read. And one of the

6:25

things that really struck me and

6:29

resonated with me personally as

6:29

well was it how people can kind

6:32

of get stuck in that pre

6:32

contemplation phase where they

6:36

know they want to do something

6:36

different, they maybe even have

6:38

some idea what that thing is

6:38

what that calling may be. But

6:42

they don't necessarily make that

6:42

final step and make the jump. I

6:47

wonder if before we may be

6:47

talking about that how much of

6:50

writing the book was for you

6:50

versus for other people, like

6:53

how much of it was helping you

6:53

kind of refine your view on what

6:56

finding your own personal

6:56

calling was, and how much of it

6:59

is really for other people.

7:01

It was 90% for

7:01

me, and it went all the way back

7:06

to when I reached out to the

7:06

individuals who I profiled in

7:11

the book, the people who had

7:11

actually taken that leap of

7:14

faith and pursued it, that for

7:14

me was part of my process of

7:18

recognising, you need to

7:18

surround yourself with people

7:21

who are doing what you want to

7:21

be doing, even if it's not

7:25

specifically people who are

7:25

doing something that you aspire

7:29

to be like, and then from then

7:29

on, it took me a long time to

7:33

get there. But even the actual

7:33

finished product of kind of

7:37

putting it together. That to me

7:37

was almost like going through my

7:42

own career coaching, career

7:42

counselling, therapeutic type of

7:47

process to say, Okay, now I'm

7:47

even that much more committed. I

7:51

know, this is how I feel. I've

7:51

codified it, these are my

7:54

values. This is what I really

7:54

want my life to be about. Now

7:57

that it's, it's there in black

7:57

and white, I need to actually

8:01

follow through with this and

8:01

actually live this,

8:03

how did it feel to

8:03

pick up a copy of your book when

8:06

it got delivered?

8:07

I was it was

8:07

definitely rewarding to have

8:10

that be in my hands.

8:13

And I know your your

8:13

backstory, because we our

8:16

friendship goes back some time.

8:16

But tell everybody who's

8:19

listening, you know, how long?

8:19

How long have you wanted to

8:21

write a book?

8:23

Oh, gosh, well,

8:23

probably, I've wanted to be a

8:26

writer. Since my early 20s, I'm

8:26

I'm 14. So it's been a couple of

8:32

decades. And I have been writing

8:32

that whole time. But I have not

8:37

necessarily been taking what

8:37

I've written and putting it out

8:40

into the world. Most things have

8:40

kind of left been left on the

8:44

shelf, and are just, you know,

8:44

lost on my hard drive somewhere.

8:48

So So it's been a long time. And

8:48

it was something that

8:51

increasingly felt like I wanted

8:51

to get back to it because it had

8:54

been so many years since I had

8:54

really committed to following

8:57

through with a manuscript like that.

9:00

So it's really interesting, because you've written a lot over the years,

9:01

and like you've just explained,

9:05

a lot of it never really saw the

9:05

light of day. So what what was

9:08

different this time? What made

9:08

you so motivated to write

9:12

something and then and then put

9:12

it out there?

9:15

I think in this

9:15

case, it was because it's a

9:18

topic that I feel so passionate

9:18

about. And because I felt so

9:23

much inner struggle and even

9:23

pain throughout my journey where

9:28

I felt like things were off

9:28

kilter, and I wasn't pursuing a

9:31

calling. I felt like okay, I

9:31

have to get this out there. And

9:36

actually, I think it's also a

9:36

little bit driven by the fact

9:40

that a lot of the narrative in

9:40

this space right now has been

9:44

coloured by some recent books

9:44

that say, pursuing your passion

9:48

actually, is bad advice and that

9:48

really what drives career

9:52

satisfaction or other things

9:52

like mastery. And that just did

9:56

not resonate with me at all

9:56

because i've i've done things

9:59

that You could argue for me,

9:59

were things that I attained a

10:04

relative level of mastery at,

10:04

you know, I spent enough time

10:07

that I got pretty good at it.

10:07

But I was miserable. So I didn't

10:12

think that that really captured

10:12

it. And I think that was a

10:15

little bit of a misleading

10:15

interpretation of some of the

10:20

research and things that are out

10:20

there. I actually think for a

10:23

lot of people, not for

10:23

everybody, necessarily, some

10:25

people are fine, just working a

10:25

day job and living for the

10:29

nights and weekends. But for a

10:29

lot of people, they're like me,

10:32

and they know that this is just

10:32

too many hours a day, life is

10:37

too short, I simply cannot go

10:37

through the motions during that,

10:42

and feel fulfilled as a human

10:42

being. And so I felt like I just

10:45

had to get that out there.

10:46

Yeah, that's great.

10:46

I completely agree. And I was so

10:50

pleased for you, when you when

10:50

you finally made the jump and

10:53

got the book out there. And

10:53

how's the response been? Have

10:56

you heard from people who've

10:56

read it? Has anybody shared

10:58

their thoughts with you?

11:01

Yeah, the

11:01

response has been really

11:03

positive from those who have

11:03

reached out to me, I think a lot

11:07

of people tend to kind of keep

11:07

their thoughts quiet. And

11:13

actually, it's interesting,

11:13

because I've, I've known from

11:16

hearing from some people that

11:16

they worry, when they come back

11:20

to me, if I know that they've

11:20

read the book, and they're not

11:23

doing something, I think I'm

11:23

gonna judge them. Certainly not

11:26

what I'm going to do, I think

11:26

everybody's got to follow their

11:29

own path. And, again, I mean,

11:29

I'm not Who am I to say what's

11:33

right for you. But that being

11:33

said, Those who know that this

11:39

is a question that they can't

11:39

answer for themselves now, or,

11:44

or they know that what they're

11:44

doing is not what they should be

11:49

doing. And they've somehow just

11:49

found themselves stuck and

11:52

unable to go forward. Those

11:52

people have reached out to me,

11:55

and it's been incredible

11:55

feedback, just with respect to

11:59

Okay, I loved it. And I feel

11:59

like you told me exactly what I

12:03

needed to hear in order to do

12:03

this. And in some cases, also,

12:08

you laid out enough of a path

12:08

for me that I could actually

12:12

take action today, and progress

12:12

myself from wherever I'm at,

12:17

which is, I think, sometimes

12:17

difficult with books because you

12:21

read them, and they don't always

12:21

translate into actual change in

12:25

your life.

12:25

I love that with

12:25

your book as well, you know, I

12:28

like to read a lot of books like

12:28

this. And very often, I feel

12:31

like there's, there's kind of

12:31

one central tenant of an idea.

12:36

And then they build a book

12:36

around it. And there's just a

12:39

lot of fluff and noise. And you

12:39

feel like it could almost have

12:42

just been an article there. And

12:42

it would have been a really

12:45

powerful article if they just

12:45

kept it short. But they're

12:47

trying to fill it out and make a

12:47

book and I think it was notably

12:50

different with yours was it

12:50

really was a blueprint for

12:54

thinking about the different

12:54

stages or finding your calling.

12:57

And I love the way that you, you

12:57

know, you talk to the end about

13:00

other people's stories, and you

13:00

gave real live examples of how,

13:04

you know, people have made the

13:04

jump. And also it was very

13:07

honest, it wasn't it's not like

13:07

just stories of people who made

13:11

the jump and suddenly became

13:11

these Uber wealthy

13:13

entrepreneurs. It was it was

13:13

real people living a life of

13:17

purpose and finding their

13:17

calling. And, you know, the the

13:20

roller coaster that that that

13:20

entails, I thought it was an

13:23

incredibly honest and powerful

13:23

book. So yeah, I'm glad that

13:28

it's, it's, it's been well

13:28

received. And I've shared it

13:32

several times. And we'll

13:32

continue to do that. So like,

13:35

I'd like to shift gears a little

13:35

bit and talk also about your

13:38

podcasts because you're

13:38

definitely in creative output

13:41

mode. So you've written a book,

13:41

which I think is really

13:45

successful. And you've also

13:45

launched your, your podcast back

13:49

to the breath. And I'm a, I'm an

13:49

avid subscriber, I love

13:53

listening to every episode. And

13:53

it's quite a lot of variety in

13:56

there as well. You've done some

13:56

interviews, and you've also done

14:01

some guided meditation. And

14:01

then, you know, some some

14:05

thoughts for the day. And I just

14:05

really enjoy the podcast. And I

14:08

was wondering if you could tell

14:08

us a little bit more about that.

14:10

What made you start the podcast

14:10

and, you know, what's your

14:13

central message that you're trying to share?

14:15

Yeah, what made

14:15

me start it? Well, we've talked

14:19

about this a bit ignorance about

14:19

how much work it is. And maybe

14:24

back 5% of the world's

14:24

population has a podcast so

14:29

yeah, if everyone was jumping

14:29

off a bridge, I guess I'd be

14:32

jumping off a bridge to actually

14:32

no, that's more you, that's

14:35

your, your, you'd be the guy

14:35

that would strap on the bungee

14:38

cord and jump off a bridge and I

14:38

I justify it in my head. It's a

14:43

passion project first and

14:43

foremost, and I justify it in my

14:46

head as as content marketing so

14:46

that I can say, hey, it's okay

14:50

that I spend this much time on

14:50

the podcast, but the, the

14:56

central message so we'll

14:56

actually you know before I go to

14:59

the central message, I also want

14:59

to make one comment about

15:03

podcasts in general that I love.

15:03

And I love yours as well. And I

15:06

appreciate the fact that you're

15:06

putting this out there. And the

15:10

fact that you came on to back to

15:10

the breath as a guest, which was

15:14

a really wonderful conversation,

15:14

if people haven't listened to

15:17

that, they should totally check

15:17

it out. And I had the benefit of

15:20

listening to it more than once,

15:20

because of the fact that I am

15:23

also my post production, audio

15:23

engineer jack of all trades. And

15:27

so I was actually really

15:27

listening. Second and third time

15:31

through and things were hitting

15:31

me that much more. And it

15:33

actually did shape the way that

15:33

I went about living since that

15:39

point. So I just want to put

15:39

that out there. I want to thank

15:42

you for that. That was That was awesome.

15:43

Well, thank you.

15:45

It's okay. So I

15:45

think podcasting is awesome,

15:50

because of the fact that it is,

15:50

it's a format that lends itself

15:55

to idea sharing that I think it

15:55

does that better than a lot of

15:59

other medium media, like social

15:59

media, for example, which I hate

16:07

social media. I mean, we've

16:07

talked about this, and I, I know

16:12

it's I probably rip on it more,

16:12

more than most, and probably a

16:15

little too much. But to me, a

16:15

lot of times social media just

16:18

feels like it's these very bite

16:18

sized morsels of stuff. And I

16:24

just, I don't know, I just feel

16:24

like for me, I'm not a bite size

16:27

guy, I feel like I really want

16:27

to go deep in things. That's the

16:31

way I live my life in general.

16:31

You know, that's the, my

16:34

friendships are more about a few

16:34

are smaller number of deep

16:39

friendships. It's why I am

16:39

terrible at small talk, you

16:42

know, people are like, let's,

16:42

you know, what did you think of

16:45

the game last night, and I'm

16:45

like, though, let's talk about

16:48

what's your deepest passion in

16:48

life, you know, with your own

16:52

mortality, you know, so

16:52

actually, that's not usually how

16:57

it goes. Usually, I'm because of

16:57

that I'm the quiet guy in the in

17:01

the corner who just listens to everybody else doing the talking, but, but to me,

17:03

podcasting allows you to really

17:07

take the time to unpack ideas.

17:07

And that's what you've done in

17:10

your podcast as well. And I

17:10

think that's really important.

17:12

And so for me, some of what I

17:12

feel is so important to unpack

17:17

is, I look around and I see,

17:17

human beings are, generally

17:23

speaking, staying current on the

17:23

surface level. And all the while

17:27

there's this depth in this

17:27

richness of experience, that's

17:31

just essentially, it's just

17:31

waiting to be tapped. And so

17:34

that's one of the core messages

17:34

of the podcast is when I look

17:39

around, I see a lot of people

17:39

chasing the wrong thing. And it

17:43

sounds a little bold to say,

17:43

hey, you're chasing the wrong

17:46

thing. But what I mean by that

17:46

is, they think what they're

17:48

doing is going to bring them

17:48

happiness. And generally it's

17:52

it's not it's, it's people, for

17:52

example, they might be thinking,

17:58

Okay, I'm going to work hard, so

17:58

I can get that promotion. And

18:01

underpinning that is because I

18:01

think that promotion is gonna

18:03

make me happy, or we're gonna

18:03

redo our kitchen, you know,

18:07

we're gonna remodel the kitchen,

18:07

because ultimately, we think

18:10

that's going to make us happy.

18:10

And you're not thinking that.

18:13

But those are actually the

18:13

mechanics of what's driving you

18:15

to live the way that you're

18:15

living. And so it feels to me

18:19

like most of us, and I speak

18:19

this way, because it was me too.

18:23

And it still is often but we're

18:23

on autopilot. We're just living

18:27

the way we're living, we're

18:27

rarely taking a step back to

18:30

look at the situation we're in,

18:30

to examine those mechanics,

18:34

behind contentment, and to

18:34

recognise that there's another

18:38

way to live that through inner

18:38

work, there's a more direct

18:42

route to that which we really

18:42

want, which is this deeper,

18:46

lasting, unconditional sense of

18:46

fulfilment. So that's the

18:50

message behind back to the breath.

18:52

That's great. And I,

18:52

you and I have talked about this

18:55

before. But it's really hard to

18:55

put your content out there at

19:00

first, right? Because it's, you

19:00

know, we talk about dancing with

19:04

the fear of you, particularly

19:04

you as well, I think coming from

19:07

kind of a corporate background

19:07

where I first met you, and then

19:10

what you're doing now is so

19:10

different, so creative. It's it

19:15

feels totally normal for me,

19:15

because I know you so well, but

19:17

for people who perhaps don't know you as well, it might be quite quite surprising to them.

19:19

So what have been, you know,

19:23

maybe some of the some of the

19:23

highs and lows for you of

19:25

stepping out of your safe

19:25

corporate world and into this

19:29

creative world. Hmm.

19:34

That is a very, I

19:34

would say astute observation.

19:38

Because I think anytime you

19:38

pivot as a person, a lot of

19:42

people knew you as a certain

19:42

thing. They knew you in a

19:45

certain way. And it makes them

19:45

uncomfortable and not everybody

19:49

comes along with you for the

19:49

journey. And that's challenging

19:54

also in the beginning because

19:54

the only people you have in the

19:58

beginning are The people that

19:58

were with you in your past life,

20:03

and if all those people are in a

20:03

different realm, an awful lot of

20:07

them are just going to feel

20:07

almost alienated. Sometimes. I

20:12

mean, that's a bit of a strong

20:12

word, but they, they can even

20:17

put you in a box and almost

20:17

resist what you're doing because

20:21

it doesn't fit with what they

20:21

think about you or how they see

20:25

you. So, I do think that is,

20:25

you're pointing to one of the

20:31

challenges of I think any major

20:31

life change is sometimes you

20:35

have to leave the old behind.

20:35

And leaving the old behind can

20:40

sometimes mean, you're having to

20:40

let go of things like

20:45

relationships that weren't

20:45

serving you, or just letting go

20:51

of, of the felt sense of

20:51

approval that you feel like you

20:55

need from these people who are

20:55

maybe going to be looking at you

20:58

very differently from what you

20:58

were doing before. So I think

21:01

that's part of it. I think, on

21:01

the whole, I love it, I would

21:06

have to say, the real highs for

21:06

me are twofold. The first high

21:14

that I just absolutely love is

21:14

it's when you do something that

21:20

you're proud of, when you create

21:20

something that you're proud of.

21:24

And to me, that is like a reward

21:24

in and of itself. If you're just

21:29

like, okay, I did this, and it's

21:29

something that I feel like I am

21:33

confident enough to put out

21:33

there even in spite of all this

21:36

fear, even though it's making me

21:36

incredibly uncomfortable, I am

21:39

going to put this out there.

21:39

Because I feel like I I put

21:44

myself out there I was

21:44

vulnerable, I was real I was the

21:49

person I wanted to be and the

21:49

product was in some way, a

21:53

quality that I was comfortable

21:53

with. So that to me is like high

21:56

number one, high number two,

21:56

which is by far the highest

22:00

high. And I suspect that you

22:00

feel this way as well, I'd be

22:05

interested to hear you, you

22:05

comment on it. But it's when

22:10

those moments come in, where

22:10

somebody shares with you, that

22:14

what you put out, moved them

22:14

deeply, you know, or made them

22:20

make some kind of very

22:20

meaningful change in their life.

22:23

And I've been lucky enough in

22:23

this case to have that happen.

22:28

And sometimes it's it's been

22:28

like really meaningful stuff

22:32

like mind blowing mean,

22:32

meaningful stuff. And that, to

22:36

me is like just such a gift when

22:36

that happens, because it's it's

22:40

like, okay, that is I never

22:40

could have hoped for that to

22:46

happen. But that's what I want

22:46

my life to be about. That's the

22:49

motivating force behind

22:49

everything that I'm doing right

22:53

now is to be more helpful and to

22:53

be of greater contribution in

22:58

this life. And so when I get

22:58

that feedback, it's awesome. And

23:04

it also does help you keep

23:04

going, when you're confronted by

23:09

that self doubt that you're

23:09

inevitably going to be feeling

23:12

feeling very tired at various

23:12

times. It's brilliant. And

23:15

you're right, it's

23:15

like a virtuous circle. When you

23:18

get that positive feedback, it

23:18

makes you It makes you want to

23:22

want to keep keep going and keep

23:22

doing what you're doing. And

23:25

similarly for me, because you

23:25

asked my high, my low from

23:29

launching the podcast actually

23:29

linked to the same thing. So my,

23:32

my biggest low at the start

23:32

after four or five episodes was

23:36

thinking that maybe I shouldn't

23:36

do it because there just weren't

23:39

that many people or I perceived

23:39

that there weren't that many

23:42

people listening, I had the

23:42

download stats, and I thought

23:45

maybe, maybe it's just not

23:45

something that people want. And

23:49

then you know, just the same

23:49

week, I got a message from one

23:52

of the listeners telling me just

23:52

how fundamentally listening to

23:55

the podcast changed their life

23:55

and made them think about

23:59

wanting to get out and be more

23:59

adventurous and more active. And

24:02

in that moment, I realised that

24:02

I could have one listener, and

24:06

that's okay. And that's actually

24:06

really powerful if you if you

24:09

really change somebody's life

24:09

and help them and if that person

24:13

then goes on to help somebody

24:13

else then then you're doing a

24:16

good thing and it makes all of

24:16

the all of the effort

24:18

worthwhile. So, yeah, completely

24:18

resonates with me. And by the

24:23

way, for everybody listening, I

24:23

would say if they go to your

24:27

podcast to have to follow your

24:27

podcast, but back to the breath,

24:30

and there was I'm just looking

24:30

now to make sure I get the name

24:32

of the episode, right but you

24:32

did an episode called finally

24:35

back home. It was episode number

24:35

nine. I really would love people

24:40

to listen to that. It blew my

24:40

mind Mike and I think it was so

24:45

incredibly creative and

24:45

different and it completely

24:49

caught me off guard and I

24:49

genuinely have listened to it

24:52

seven or eight times. I just

24:52

love it. I think it's great and

24:56

I think it's so happy for you to

24:56

have had the opportunity to be

25:01

able to be creative and put

25:01

something like that

25:03

out there. Well,

25:03

thanks. I appreciate that. And

25:06

it's funny that you mentioned

25:06

that one because that's a great

25:08

example of probably of all

25:08

podcasts, the one that I felt

25:13

most hesitant about putting out

25:13

because it was so different. And

25:18

in some respects, I think it's

25:18

one of those that I've, I've

25:21

heard the most feedback and in

25:21

some cases, some some really

25:25

powerful comments that people

25:25

gave me when when I put that out

25:28

there. And so I appreciate that.

25:28

Totally. And I, I wanted to go

25:33

back to something you said about

25:33

about the stats. Because I

25:39

realised a similar thing, and I,

25:39

I actually had to pull myself

25:45

out of the equation. I cannot

25:45

look at that anymore. And so I,

25:51

early on, I mean, the first like

25:51

week or two, I would check

25:55

simply because I just wanted to

25:55

know, hey, did anybody get this?

25:58

And then I realised, okay, this

25:58

is not why I'm doing this. I'm

26:02

not doing this to see numbers go

26:02

up. And so I pulled the plug,

26:06

and I have not looked at set

26:06

since I have no idea how many

26:09

people are listening to the

26:09

podcast. And I think what you

26:11

said is absolutely spot on. It's

26:11

it's exactly how I feel, which

26:14

is it's not about broad

26:14

exposure. I mean, this, this is

26:19

a passion project that is

26:19

fundamentally about depth, not

26:23

about breadth of exposure to it.

26:23

So if if it is the case, that

26:29

one person has a really, it

26:29

sounds cliche, but it really

26:33

feels that way. I mean,

26:33

sometimes that's all it takes is

26:36

just knowing, okay, like I will

26:36

still be doing this thing, till

26:39

I'm 96 years old, is there's

26:39

like one or two occasional text

26:44

messages coming in, that are

26:44

like, yeah, you know, that

26:47

really helped me in some way.

26:47

And, you know, and I'll be 96,

26:51

because of all that green

26:51

smoothies, of course.

26:56

I honestly think

26:56

that doing a podcast like this,

26:58

I don't know whether you feel

26:58

the same way. But it is actually

27:01

a bit like the book, it's as

27:01

much for you as it is for

27:03

everybody else. It's, you know,

27:03

it's part of the process of

27:08

sharing knowledge, I just feel

27:08

like the world will be a happier

27:11

kind of place if we all, you

27:11

know, care more and share more

27:15

and give people these ideas. And

27:15

like you said, No, sounds a bit

27:18

cliche. But if somebody takes a

27:18

great message from the back to

27:22

the breath podcast, and then

27:22

takes that on and passes that on

27:26

to somebody in their circle,

27:26

then then it makes everything

27:29

worthwhile. It makes all those

27:29

as opposed to editing what

27:33

it does. And I

27:33

think that's for me, you said

27:36

it's part of the process. And

27:36

that's absolutely true. For me,

27:39

I think every time I've done

27:39

this kind of reflection, every

27:44

time I've gone deep in

27:44

meditation, or I've had some

27:47

kind of spiritual insight of

27:47

some sort, every time what's

27:50

revealed to me is always

27:50

consistent in some fundamental

27:53

way. And it always has to do

27:53

with these things that they come

27:56

out and they sound very banal.

27:56

You know, they're like, these

28:00

just vanilla platitudes. But

28:00

when you really see them, you

28:04

really feel them, you see that

28:04

it's, it's, life is pretty

28:11

simple. When you abide by some

28:11

very key principles. And for me,

28:15

it's like, okay, am I living my

28:15

life based on love? Am I being

28:19

kind? am I helping others? Am I

28:19

putting good out there? Am I

28:22

overcoming my own fears, so that

28:22

I can become my best self? Am I

28:26

a net benefit to this whole play

28:26

of life, not to say that I'm

28:30

anything less than this very

28:30

insignificant part of this, like

28:33

infinite time and space and vast

28:33

universe, but we are

28:38

significant. I mean, what we do

28:38

how we live, it affects the

28:41

people around us. And so it's

28:41

significant to them. And it's

28:44

significant to the whole. And so

28:44

to me, I think this is part of

28:48

the process of learning how to

28:48

put yourself out there, and how

28:51

to be more giving of things and

28:51

to turn off the part of you that

28:56

worries about the outcomes.

28:58

Right? Yeah, love

28:58

that. And I also I feel pretty

29:01

strongly that I've shared on the

29:01

podcast before this notion of

29:05

not waiting your whole life to

29:05

learn how to live. And I think

29:09

so I think part of it is is is

29:09

giving and, and supporting

29:14

others, and being kind part of

29:14

it is also just experiencing

29:18

life and being present and not

29:18

living too far in the past or

29:21

too far in the future. So I'm

29:21

curious because I know, you

29:24

know, in your early so we talked

29:24

about this a little bit in, in

29:28

your podcast in your book, but

29:28

you know, early Mike, as a

29:32

consultant working insane hours

29:32

poring over countless PowerPoint

29:36

presentations. And, you know,

29:36

trying to get smart and

29:40

industries before you speak to

29:40

customers and just not not happy

29:43

really doing what you're doing.

29:43

If you had the opportunity to go

29:47

back in time and speak to to

29:47

that, Mike, who you probably

29:52

tried to walk away from that

29:52

corporate world a few times, but

29:56

couldn't until recently. What

29:56

would you What would you tell

29:59

him and What messages would you

29:59

give a younger version of

30:01

yourself?

30:05

I would tell him

30:05

many of the things that I said

30:12

in the book, for sure. And part

30:12

of what part of what it comes

30:18

down to, for me is an awful lot

30:18

of my life at that point in time

30:25

was governed by fear, anxiety,

30:25

worry about financial security,

30:32

worry about approval, and what

30:32

other people would think,

30:36

concern about whether or not I

30:36

would succeed or fail and what

30:43

that would feel like or what

30:43

that would do to me. And so I

30:48

was essentially pushing down all

30:48

of this stuff in me, that was

30:56

trying to make itself be known

30:56

like this is what you love this

30:59

is this is if you're going to

30:59

follow your bliss, this is the

31:02

direction to go, Mike, you know

31:02

this, because I've shared this

31:06

story with some some people,

31:06

where I used to travel a lot,

31:11

and I would be sitting next to

31:11

my colleagues on a plane. And

31:15

they would be reading business

31:15

books, and they would be reading

31:19

the Wall Street Journal, and

31:19

they would be brushing up on

31:22

understanding the industry that

31:22

we're consulting into, for

31:25

example, and what would I be

31:25

doing, I'd be meditating, I'd be

31:29

listening to a spiritual talk,

31:29

I'd be reading spiritual book, I

31:32

would be learning about health

31:32

and wellness and going deep on

31:36

fitness, I would be

31:36

contemplating, you know, my next

31:40

move, and when I might be able

31:40

to, you know, jump out of, of

31:44

where I was not jump out of

31:44

plane, obviously, that's only

31:47

you. Don't jump out of planes.

31:47

But to me, I think I would have

31:54

to tell myself, get over the

31:54

fear. And recognise, you know,

32:01

life is, is not gonna last

32:01

forever? And what are you going

32:06

to look back on this period of

32:06

time? and think, if you just

32:10

continue to go through the

32:10

motions, allowing yourself to

32:13

feel miserable, versus taking

32:13

the risk, no matter? What

32:17

happens? How could you possibly

32:17

regret that there's no regret

32:20

and going for something, if

32:20

anything, you get to live this

32:24

awesome little chapter of your

32:24

life, no matter how long it

32:26

lasts, and then if it doesn't

32:26

work out, okay, then go back to

32:30

what you were doing before, you're not gonna be any worse off maybe financially a little

32:32

bit. But by and large, we're not

32:35

talking about? Are you gonna

32:35

have a roof over your head? Are

32:38

you going to be able to eat the

32:38

next meal? It's not like really,

32:41

really important stuff. It's

32:41

more like, you know, can you

32:44

afford stuff that maybe you

32:44

don't even need? So that to me

32:48

would be probably a big message

32:48

for me back then for that for

32:53

that mic during those consulting years?

32:55

That's great. And I

32:55

will say it because you're too

32:58

humble to say it, but people

32:58

should buy your book. And they

33:00

should get all of the tips in there. Because there's some great tips. I do think that

33:02

question around, what would you

33:06

tell a younger version of

33:06

yourself is so important, took a

33:09

long 28 summers podcast about

33:09

this, this notion of just kind

33:14

of cut, cutting free and

33:14

starting to, to live without

33:18

limits, and live more

33:18

adventurously. And you kind of

33:21

mentioned it a little bit

33:21

earlier on. But we probably all

33:24

spend too much time worrying

33:24

about what other people think of

33:26

us. And that is probably one of

33:26

the biggest kind of rate

33:29

limiters to people stepping out

33:29

and following their passion or

33:34

finding their calling. So what

33:34

what is it? So you've got that

33:40

we've got the book, we've got

33:40

the podcast, and now you also

33:42

have a breath work and

33:42

meditation business and maybe

33:45

talk a little bit about that.

33:45

And I'd love to know, as an

33:48

extension of that. What What

33:48

does a typical week look like

33:51

for you? What are you spending your time doing?

33:53

Sure. Well,

33:53

first, maybe give the listeners

33:57

a little bit of context about

33:57

where I'm at. So I got going

34:01

pretty recently, you know, in

34:01

earnest, it was it was a few

34:04

months ago. And prior to that,

34:04

obviously, it was working on the

34:07

book. And prior to that I was

34:07

actually doing my own soul

34:11

searching, saying, okay, Mike,

34:11

it's time, you know, we're gonna

34:15

do this thing, whatever it is,

34:15

I've been felt so pulled to do

34:18

for so long. And I needed to

34:18

figure out okay, what flavour is

34:21

that going to take? Exactly. So

34:21

I'm a handful of months in. And

34:27

it's, it's worth mentioning that

34:27

already, I've never felt such a

34:31

degree of congruence in my heart

34:31

with what I'm doing. And it's

34:36

just so interesting to think

34:36

back to a couple of years ago,

34:39

where I'd be, for example,

34:39

listening to podcasts, many of

34:42

the ones that you and I listened

34:42

to, right and I'd be hearing all

34:46

these people talk about pursuing

34:46

their dreams and passions or

34:50

goals and how they think you

34:50

need to go about it to be

34:52

successful. And I would listen

34:52

to those things and I just, I

34:57

couldn't get out of my own way

34:57

at the time for whatever reason.

35:00

And it was in some senses was

35:00

very frustrating to hear this

35:03

because it was this like

35:03

juxtaposition between this

35:07

person who had already traversed

35:07

the path and had some degree of

35:10

success, and was living

35:10

something that I wanted in some

35:14

way. And then there was my life,

35:14

which was not like that. And for

35:19

me, the, their definition of

35:19

success might have been very

35:22

different, right, theirs might

35:22

have been more about outward

35:25

success for whereas mine was

35:25

more about inner conflict going

35:30

away and really feeling like I

35:30

am living as the person that I

35:36

want to be living it that I'm

35:36

living according to my deepest

35:39

values, that I'm pursuing my own

35:39

spiritual journey in the way

35:43

that I want to. So I think if

35:43

you fast forward to today,

35:50

that's the thing that comes

35:50

through lattice for me. And

35:53

that's why I think I continue to

35:53

talk about this so much, and

35:58

harp on the importance of

35:58

pursuing your calling, if that's

36:01

something that resonates with

36:01

you, because no inner conflict

36:05

in what you're doing in the

36:05

moment is absolutely essential

36:10

to a deep sense of fulfilment.

36:10

So breathwork is very difficult

36:19

to describe. It's honestly, it's

36:19

something that I still haven't

36:24

figured out. And one of the

36:24

challenges is, with breath work

36:28

is just that term is so broad, I

36:28

mean, you know, you're a fitness

36:32

guy, if somebody came to you and

36:32

was like, I teach fitness, you'd

36:35

be like, okay, like, Pilates or

36:35

CrossFit or I was in bar, you

36:40

know, you've told me almost

36:40

nothing. So I'm recognising that

36:45

I need to get better at talking

36:45

about what this actually is 95%

36:49

of the people who come in and do

36:49

their first ever session,

36:51

whether it's one on one or group

36:51

class, they think that they're

36:54

going to come in and have some

36:54

peaceful, relaxing, meditative

36:57

type of experience. And then

36:57

they lay on the mat, and an hour

37:00

later, they're like, holy bleep,

37:00

bleep, you know, what does that

37:03

happen to me. And so, you know,

37:03

if I were to just try to

37:07

describe it, the basics of it

37:07

are outwardly that you're just

37:10

simply you're lying on a mat,

37:10

your eyes are closed, you put on

37:13

the headphones, and you breathe

37:13

in a particularly intense way

37:18

while I'm playing music and

37:18

guiding you through this

37:20

experience. And what happens is

37:20

that for the majority of people

37:25

who are willing to go for it,

37:25

and that's important, they

37:29

really willing to let go into

37:29

the experience and really go for

37:33

it. What happens is, it's this

37:33

intense, powerful rollercoaster

37:38

that has the potential to

37:38

transform people in these very

37:42

incredible ways, like healing

37:42

from past trauma, or clearing

37:47

out negative emotion or clarity

37:47

and insights into the direction

37:51

of their life. I mean, I use

37:51

that a tonne for that during my

37:54

kind of investigation of

37:54

pursuing a calling, or it's even

37:58

having a completely

37:58

transcendental or spiritual type

38:00

experience. I mean, this is no

38:00

exaggeration. I mean, that is,

38:04

the majority of people have a

38:04

really powerful experience. And

38:08

so that's, that's kind of what

38:08

breathwork is all about. And so

38:13

my typical day tends to be, if I

38:13

have a client work that I'm

38:19

doing, that's a part of it. And

38:19

then, between all of my gaps,

38:25

that's when I'm doing things

38:25

like working on the podcast, or

38:27

working on the book, or, you

38:27

know, the next writing project

38:31

or working on, in some cases,

38:31

like for right now, without

38:35

going into too much detail. I'm

38:35

working on my next sort of

38:39

product service, whatever that

38:39

you might want to call it. So

38:42

sort of another project that I'm

38:42

up to. So that's kind of typical

38:45

day.

38:45

That's awesome. So I

38:45

mean, it's so different. And I'm

38:48

wondering how you describe what

38:48

you do to people like, well, if

38:53

you had a business card, what

38:53

would the business card say?

38:55

Mike is feeling

38:55

his way in the dark for some

38:59

semblance of a path forward? Um,

38:59

I think, if I had, the way I

39:06

describe it to people is the

39:06

main things that I'm doing right

39:09

now are that I'm a breathwork,

39:09

and meditation teacher, and then

39:14

I'm a life and career coach. And

39:14

I think what the the aim, the

39:20

end to which all of that is

39:20

directed is helping people live

39:25

their best lives, helping people

39:25

discover for them their own

39:29

path. I would call it a

39:29

spiritual path in many cases,

39:33

but that word turns a lot of

39:33

people off. I'm not afraid to

39:36

use it. I think unfortunately, a

39:36

lot of people don't necessarily.

39:42

They're not using the word in

39:42

the same way. So we're not

39:45

actually describing the same

39:45

thing. But to me, it is more

39:49

about your deeper journey in

39:49

life which is growing as a human

39:53

doing this inner work becoming

39:53

more free. And to me, freedom is

39:58

all about shedding all The

39:58

stuff, the fear, the anxiety,

40:02

the stress, all these different

40:02

things that weigh us down, and

40:05

that we store in our bodies and

40:05

that govern the way we go about

40:09

our days, to the point where

40:09

many times we are living with

40:14

this low grade anxiety or

40:14

depression or tension that we

40:19

just don't even know is there.

40:19

And the minute you actually free

40:22

yourself from it, you're like,

40:22

Oh, my gosh, life is beautiful.

40:28

And that's when you start to be

40:28

able to open up to this joy,

40:31

this gratitude, the fact that

40:31

you don't need to go chase crazy

40:35

things to be able to find some

40:35

happiness, you can find

40:38

happiness in very simple things,

40:38

because you're just feeling

40:41

good. So that, to me is a big

40:41

part of all of those things that

40:45

I'm doing are to help people

40:45

discover that in their lives.

40:49

It's so beautiful.

40:49

And I'm really excited to see

40:53

where that goes through for you.

40:53

Because I think that the world

40:57

needs more of a message like

40:57

that. So many people are kind of

41:00

stuck in the day to day, and

41:00

they don't know how to break

41:04

free. They, for a lot of them,

41:04

they desperately want to but

41:07

they don't really know how to do

41:07

that. And I've talked on this

41:10

podcast before about one of the

41:10

first steps on that journey is

41:15

to create some space and create

41:15

a bit of calm, you know, before

41:20

you sort of rush headlong I

41:20

mean, my my podcast and my

41:22

philosophy is always about being

41:22

adventurous and trying to do,

41:26

you know, some chart, push

41:26

yourself, push your limits, and

41:28

we talked on that on your

41:28

podcast about that. But for

41:31

anybody who just trying to make

41:31

a change in their lives, I think

41:34

first you have to kind of create

41:34

some calm and create some space.

41:37

And you and I have talked about

41:37

this a lot before because I have

41:40

a view that for a lot of people

41:40

that's really hard. Your

41:43

meditation, for example, is

41:43

incredibly hard for people to do

41:47

it was for me personally, it

41:47

continues to be an ongoing, you

41:50

know, struggle for me to make

41:50

sure that I commit enough time

41:53

to meditation even though it's a

41:53

daily practice for me. I wonder

41:57

for people listening in who, who

41:57

are starting to believe that

42:01

it's the right path for them,

42:01

and it will help them create

42:03

some space. Yeah, what tips

42:03

would you give people who, who

42:07

want to kind of try meditation,

42:07

because you've been doing it for

42:10

a long time now. So you've,

42:10

you've got the benefit of quite

42:13

a lot of experience? Yeah.

42:16

Well, for me, I

42:16

think meditation and breath work

42:23

are two very valuable practices,

42:23

breath work, obviously, there

42:27

are a number of different types

42:27

of, of experiences that you can

42:32

have with that. And I think they

42:32

both actually are mutually

42:36

beneficial. And so I discovered

42:36

that a little bit late, I

42:39

originally discovered

42:39

meditation, and went really deep

42:42

into that. And that was my path

42:42

100%. And then breathwork came

42:45

in later, actually on a

42:45

meditation retreat. And I

42:48

discovered, oh, man, this is

42:48

totally different. And this is

42:52

extremely beneficial for

42:52

different reasons. So my advice

42:56

to somebody who thinks they may

42:56

want to meditate, or is just

43:03

getting going is keep it small

43:03

and simple in the beginning, so

43:10

try to just get yourself to

43:10

commit to, I'm just gonna sit

43:14

down and meditate for five

43:14

minutes or 10 minutes. And but

43:18

I'm going to follow through with

43:18

it. And I'm going to do it every

43:20

single day. And that, to me is

43:20

so important. I know a lot of

43:24

people say this. And so in some

43:24

ways, it's it's maybe becoming a

43:27

little bit repetitive for people

43:27

to hear this. But it's so

43:31

important because you cannot go

43:31

dive in headfirst to meditation

43:37

and be sitting for 45 minutes or

43:37

an hour without potentially

43:41

driving yourself crazy. And

43:41

you're unlikely to come away

43:45

from that experience and feel

43:45

like okay, I can do this,

43:50

instead, it's going to start to

43:50

show you Wow, I my mind is all

43:54

over the place. I'm

43:54

uncomfortable in my own skin.

43:57

And that's important. That's a

43:57

realisation that you need to

43:59

have. And that's part of what

43:59

meditation shows you. But that's

44:03

not the end. And so until you go

44:03

deep enough with meditation,

44:09

you're not going to feel the

44:09

benefits of meditation. And so

44:12

it's important to give it enough

44:12

time, so that you can actually

44:15

see, oh, there's they're there.

44:15

You know, it's it's actually,

44:21

whether it's calming me down, or

44:21

it's giving me more focus, or if

44:26

you're using it more to some of

44:26

the angles that I've used it for

44:30

which are more about really

44:30

freeing yourself and

44:35

understanding this human

44:35

experience at a felt

44:39

experiential level. Like, I'm

44:39

actually seeing the mechanics of

44:44

consciousness in my experience,

44:44

and that then leads to these

44:47

insights that end up freeing me

44:47

in some way. That it's, it's

44:54

very important to say, Alright,

44:54

I know this is going to take me

44:58

at least a couple of months. To

44:58

start to feel like I had, I came

45:02

away from a session and felt

45:02

good felt like there was

45:05

something beneficial that came

45:05

out of it. And that that's

45:09

different. I think from breath

45:09

work because breath work is

45:15

often it's the type of thing

45:15

where you, you have a massive

45:19

experience your first time,

45:19

it's, it's easier, as long as

45:24

you show up with an open mind,

45:24

you push yourself, you really

45:27

drive yourself through it, I

45:27

would say probably 90% of people

45:33

who give it a try, at least

45:33

once, if not, you know, two to

45:37

three times 90% of people, by

45:37

the time they've tried it three

45:40

times will have had a meaningful

45:40

experience. So they are at least

45:43

able to then taste what this

45:43

practice can bring to them. And

45:47

know whether or not it's

45:47

something for them meditation, a

45:50

lot of people just throw in the

45:50

towel too early. And they don't

45:53

recognise, hey, this practice, I

45:53

mean, it can bring you to the

45:56

absolute pinnacle of human

45:56

experience. I mean, it is the

46:00

number one path that the Buddha

46:00

and other traditions lead you to

46:05

for spiritual enlightenment,

46:05

right? There's something massive

46:08

that can come from this practice

46:08

of meditation. But by and large,

46:12

the average person is not

46:12

necessarily going to want to

46:16

follow through with that,

46:16

because it's sometimes

46:19

uncomfortable. And it's not

46:19

necessarily like they're going

46:22

to experience something really

46:22

potent, early on to know that

46:26

they should really keep going.

46:27

I think that's

46:27

right. I love that message,

46:30

Mike. And I remember from some

46:30

of our early conversations as

46:33

well, I think I was one of those

46:33

people that had a bit of a

46:37

stereotypical preconceived idea

46:37

of what meditation was, and

46:41

wasn't. And I think it was quite

46:41

a binary view, I just assumed it

46:45

was people sat down in a room

46:45

for hours on end with their legs

46:50

crossed, you know, humming or

46:50

chanting. And, of course, that

46:53

is one aspect of meditation that

46:53

people may want to explore, they

46:57

may get there on their

46:57

meditation journey, but you can

47:00

just as easily meditate, going

47:00

for a walk in the woods, right?

47:04

And just being alone with your

47:04

thoughts, and really focusing on

47:08

being present in the moment and

47:08

not distracted. So I think

47:12

that's really, I think that's a

47:12

really interesting one for you

47:15

here. So many times people say

47:15

our meditation is not for me.

47:19

And whenever I hear that, now, I

47:19

always I always challenge,

47:22

challenge it and ask people why

47:22

they feel that way. Right. And

47:26

so I think that's, I think

47:26

that's really interesting. I

47:29

think you hit on a really

47:29

interesting point around making

47:32

micro changes as well, not

47:32

trying to do too much too soon.

47:35

I think it's probably a great

47:35

mantra for any, any behaviour

47:38

change in your life, if you try

47:38

and bite off too much at once.

47:42

It feels really unsustainable.

47:44

Yeah, for sure.

47:44

And, and I think that the idea

47:51

of, we all have this tendency, I

47:51

think, sometimes to just quickly

47:55

try to judge is something for me

47:55

or not, and I'm not ever one, as

48:01

passionate as I am about

48:01

meditation or breath work for

48:04

that matter. I'm not one to say,

48:04

this is for everybody, this is

48:07

for you. This is something that

48:07

you really have to do. For sure,

48:11

a lot of people it's probably

48:11

not for them for different

48:14

reasons. But going back to what

48:14

you said about people who come

48:19

to that conclusion, a lot of

48:19

times it is premature, it's, you

48:21

know, some some people, it's,

48:21

they've never tried it, and

48:25

they're like, no, that's not for

48:25

me, which is like my son who's

48:28

like, I'm not gonna eat that

48:28

vegetable. And I'm like, you

48:31

never tried it, you don't know, if you like it, you know, journey, like at least eat it

48:33

and, you know, come to this with

48:35

a little open mind for me, and

48:35

then, you know, but it's, it's

48:38

just, it's that's the mentality,

48:38

I think people are like, okay,

48:41

it's, it's woowoo, or it's this,

48:41

or it's that, and they kind of

48:44

write it off. But even the

48:44

people that give it a shot, and

48:47

then early, I sometimes talk

48:47

about this to people as a little

48:51

bit likening it to a

48:51

relationship, for example. You

48:56

know, I mean, if you, if you

48:56

meet somebody and you have 10

48:58

minutes a conversation with them, do you know that person, you know, do you really truly

49:01

know them inside? Now?

49:04

Obviously, if we went on a date

49:04

with somebody, and we're like,

49:07

You're amazing, let's get

49:07

married, you know, and six weeks

49:09

later, oh, no, what did I just

49:09

do? It's you don't know people

49:14

until you've even six months

49:14

isn't enough to know the depth

49:18

and complexity and richness of a

49:18

person. And that's meditation is

49:22

showing you about yourself.

49:22

It's, it's a new relationship

49:26

with yourself. And so to think

49:26

that you're gonna figure out

49:29

what this practice is all about

49:29

and see everything in a really

49:32

short period of time is, I

49:32

think, very naive. And it's

49:36

unfortunate because many people

49:36

who actually meditation would be

49:39

their thing. If they went far

49:39

enough. They're missing out on

49:43

one of the most transformational

49:43

practices that there is for a

49:46

human to embark upon.

49:49

Yeah, that's so

49:49

true. And I think for a lot of

49:51

people, you know, when you talk

49:51

about people saying, Oh, it's

49:54

not for me, why do you think

49:54

that is? What do you think is

49:57

created that perception of metal

49:57

dictation that it's that it's

50:02

not that people think it's not for them.

50:04

I think there's

50:04

so many different reasons. I

50:07

sometimes sometimes it has to do

50:07

with this spiritual or religious

50:13

aversion that that many of us

50:13

have, because of how we were

50:18

brought up or how we were

50:18

raised. I think there's also

50:21

some kind of, sometimes a people

50:21

who are Uber rational, and

50:29

scientifically minded, which I

50:29

was, I spent much of my academic

50:34

career going down the science

50:34

path. So I love science. And I

50:38

don't see them at odds with each

50:38

other. But for a while, I think

50:42

that was the way people thought

50:42

about it that's changing now

50:44

that there's an intersection

50:44

between certainly mindfulness

50:48

and research coming together to

50:48

say, Hey, this is also just a

50:51

tool for, you know, business

50:51

people to be better focusing or

50:55

athletes to be better at

50:55

performance, and you know, focus

50:58

and relaxation. And this is

50:58

great for people for pain relief

51:02

in certain symptom management or

51:02

so I think some of that is

51:08

changing, and there's just a

51:08

recognition, but I do think

51:11

there's a certain portion of

51:11

people that it's like, oh, it

51:14

feels like it's woowoo. Or it's

51:14

strange, or it's, it's something

51:18

in that realm, and I just don't

51:18

like things in that realm. So

51:22

that's, that's part of it. I

51:22

also think whether or not you

51:25

know, we have this tendency are,

51:25

we come up with a decision, and

51:31

then our brain comes in later,

51:31

and ascribes a rational

51:35

explanation for it, which a lot

51:35

of times actually isn't the real

51:38

reason why we made a decision,

51:38

you know, we made a decision

51:41

because of gut level feelings

51:41

and unconscious stuff. And then

51:45

the brain comes in and says,

51:45

This is the reason why I feel

51:47

that way. And it's actually

51:47

complete Bs, and all of our

51:50

brains do that my brain does, I

51:50

don't that my brain is actually

51:53

totally full of BS, and I try

51:53

not to listen to it too much.

51:55

But the thing that I do think

51:55

happens with people there is

52:01

also really what's underpinning

52:01

This is a fear to be alone with

52:05

themselves, people have almost

52:05

become unable to do this, partly

52:11

because of technology and fast

52:11

paced society and whatever. But

52:14

we are very, very, very reticent

52:14

to sit alone, with our thoughts

52:20

with our experience with no

52:20

distractions, because you're

52:24

then forced to confront some

52:24

uncomfortable stuff. And we're

52:28

always trying to avoid that. So

52:28

I actually think a big part of

52:30

reason why people don't do it,

52:30

or they don't continue with it

52:33

is because that's hard. And it

52:33

takes practice to work through

52:37

that. And then they come in

52:37

later. And they say, Oh, it's

52:40

just it's not for me, because of

52:40

XYZ filling your reason. Which

52:44

isn't really the real reason

52:44

whether they realise that or

52:48

not.

52:48

Yeah, that's, that's

52:48

fun. And I think also, you know,

52:51

I've talked before, when I came

52:51

on your podcast, the reason that

52:55

I like, kind of ultra challenges

52:55

and, you know, heavy, extreme

53:01

challenges is because after a

53:01

certain point in time, you're

53:04

all alone with your thoughts.

53:04

And there's nowhere to hide,

53:08

right? Your you just got you and

53:08

your thoughts and it and it can

53:10

be really uncomfortable. And in

53:10

fact, more often than not, it is

53:13

uncomfortable that self doubt

53:13

creeps in. You know, that

53:17

negative thinking you start

53:17

criticising, criticising

53:20

yourself, but after enough time,

53:20

you start to kind of cut through

53:25

that and you get a little bit of

53:25

control. I mean, when I first

53:28

started meditating, I think I've

53:28

told you the story, but I would,

53:31

I was like a closeted meditator.

53:31

I wouldn't do it in front of my

53:35

family. I, because I was

53:35

embarrassed, I was embarrassed

53:38

that I was meditate, which is

53:38

insane and ridiculous. But but

53:42

that was what I did. I would do

53:42

it when they weren't around, or

53:45

when I was in a hotel room if I

53:45

was travelling, or, you know, in

53:48

the basement. Yeah, I didn't

53:48

want people to see me

53:52

meditating, because I didn't. I

53:52

just didn't connect with it

53:56

first, but I gave myself enough

53:56

time and then realise that you

54:00

shouldn't really worry about

54:00

what people people think. And I

54:03

started to see the value of it.

54:03

And it became it became really,

54:07

really a powerful tool for me

54:07

and like, like I said earlier,

54:09

it's it's up and down. Some

54:09

sometimes I'm more in the zone

54:13

than others but but it is a

54:13

really powerful way to, to kind

54:18

of make yourself listen to your

54:18

thoughts and then start to try

54:20

and compartmentalise them, let

54:20

your mind wander sometimes as

54:23

well is is is really helpful.

54:23

Absolutely. So Mike, this is

54:27

this has been great. I could I

54:27

could genuinely talk to you

54:30

forever. I always love our

54:30

conversations and you always

54:32

made me think about, you know,

54:32

meditation, how I could be doing

54:37

more and I just think your

54:37

passion for what you're doing is

54:40

really impressive. And I love

54:40

the fact that you're following

54:43

your calling and you've written

54:43

your book and you've got all

54:47

these exciting projects on the

54:47

go. So I'm so pleased for you.

54:50

I'd love to know what else

54:50

you've got planned if you can

54:52

share if you got any fun

54:52

projects in the making.

54:56

Well, I do have

54:56

one fun project that I'm you

54:59

might I call it a media

54:59

experience that I'm not going to

55:03

give away too much. But I think

55:03

it's going to be hopefully very

55:07

helpful and catalysing some very

55:07

transformative stuff for people.

55:12

And I don't think there's anything quite like it out there. So I've been spending

55:14

some time working on that. But I

55:18

think, in large part, it's going

55:18

to be continuing to work with

55:22

people in one on one in group

55:22

settings, it's going to be

55:25

continuing to work on these

55:25

creative projects on the side.

55:29

And all the while, just

55:29

continuing to enjoy life, you

55:32

know, just just help others to

55:32

do the same. I think sometimes,

55:37

there's a quote, I really like,

55:37

from ROM das, he, he says, We're

55:43

all just walking each other

55:43

home. And I love that. And so I

55:47

feel like everything that I do

55:47

going forward, I have seen so

55:53

clearly that what I like want my

55:53

life to be about is doing my

55:57

part, you know, helping helping

55:57

walk some people home. That's

56:01

awesome. Like, I

56:01

love that. So I'm

56:01

gonna bring it bring us to a

56:04

close now, you know, the 28

56:04

summers philosophy is is all

56:09

about encouraging people of any

56:09

age, old and young to, to start

56:15

living a more adventurous and

56:15

purposeful life in whatever

56:19

capacity that may be. Right, but

56:19

just breaking free and trying to

56:24

remove some of the limiting

56:24

beliefs that they have around

56:27

them. So knowing that and and

56:27

with your, you know, your focus

56:32

of being being more positive and

56:32

purposeful, what would be your

56:36

you don't have to give anything

56:36

away from your book, by the way.

56:38

But what would be your, I don't

56:38

know, your top three tips for

56:41

somebody who's listened to this

56:41

podcast, and maybe some of the

56:44

earlier ones and is thinking

56:44

right now is the time that I

56:48

need to start living my life

56:48

differently, what would be your,

56:52

your top three game changes? Tip

56:52

number one

56:57

is find people

56:57

who have done what you want to

57:00

do in some way, even if it's not

57:00

exactly what you want to do. But

57:05

it's similar. They're living the

57:05

way that you want to live their

57:09

life looks like the life that

57:09

you would want to have in some

57:12

way. So that's like, in my own

57:12

case, when I sought out those

57:15

people I profiled in the book, I

57:15

wanted to spend time with people

57:18

like that. Because usually, I

57:18

think an issue that we bumped

57:22

into is we're surrounded by

57:22

people in life who are where we

57:26

are in some way, either

57:26

literally or metaphorically. And

57:32

we're doing that instead of

57:32

spending time surrounded by

57:35

people who are what we aspire to

57:35

be, and learning from them. And

57:40

letting the presence of those

57:40

people help lift us up. So

57:43

that's, for me, that's tip

57:43

number one. Tip number two. And

57:49

this would be something I would

57:49

have told myself, many years

57:53

ago. Stop waiting, stop waiting.

57:53

And we're always waiting. You

57:59

said this yourself, you say it

57:59

in the podcast. I feel this way.

58:03

So strongly, I guarantee to any

58:03

listener right now, for example,

58:08

who is feeling like they know

58:08

they need to move in a different

58:13

direction, but they're not doing

58:13

it right now in some way. I

58:18

guarantee there's something that

58:18

you can do today, regardless of

58:22

where you are on the path.

58:22

There's something you can do

58:24

today. Maybe you don't know what

58:24

that is. Okay, guess what, you

58:29

could be doing something today

58:29

to help yourself figure that out

58:32

further that self discovery

58:32

process. So that, to me is so

58:36

essential. Just stop waiting to

58:36

live your life to the fullest.

58:41

There's no better time than now

58:41

You ain't getting any younger.

58:44

Let's do this. Tip number three.

58:44

Maybe being a little cheeky

58:50

here. But stop listening and

58:50

other people's tips. I find I

58:53

have this this issue a little

58:53

bit. But you have you have this

58:57

in immense wisdom within. And

58:57

you need to learn to trust that

59:03

wisdom within and so you might

59:03

not know, you might not realise

59:08

what it has to say yet. But you

59:08

I would say I would argue that

59:11

you do deep down you know.

59:15

That's great. That's

59:15

a that's a great tip. And I

59:18

think you're right, you know, I

59:18

think that people just need to,

59:22

to follow their gut a little bit

59:22

more. Take that gut instinct and

59:25

really just go for it. This has

59:25

been such a fun conversation for

59:29

me. I think your message is spot

59:29

on. And I know for a fact

59:33

there'll be people listening who

59:33

are in the corporate kind of rat

59:38

race and just feeling like it's

59:38

not what they what they really

59:43

wanted. And you know, I think

59:43

there's such a strong message

59:48

that you're giving around, you'd

59:48

be more present, be more

59:51

purposeful, fill your you know,

59:51

fill your days with with things

59:56

that make you happy and and

59:56

don't Don't wait. Don't wait for

1:00:01

something to happen, you know,

1:00:01

make it happen yourself. So some

1:00:04

some great messages there. Where

1:00:04

can anybody listening find find

1:00:08

you online? I know you said

1:00:08

you're not a massive social

1:00:10

media fan, but I know you're on

1:00:10

social media. So where can

1:00:13

people find you? And where can

1:00:13

people follow you?

1:00:16

I think the

1:00:16

easiest place to send people is

1:00:18

back to the breath.org. And from

1:00:18

there, you can find everything.

1:00:24

You can find social media, you

1:00:24

can find what I'm up to, you can

1:00:27

find the book. And so I would

1:00:27

send everybody to back to the

1:00:30

breath.org. Great stuff.

1:00:33

Mike, it's been an

1:00:33

absolute pleasure to talk to you

1:00:35

today. Thank you so much for

1:00:35

your time. And I'm looking

1:00:38

forward to speaking to you again soon.

1:00:40

Likewise, this is

1:00:40

awesome. Thank you for having me

1:00:42

on. I really appreciate it.

1:00:58

Well, I hope you all

1:00:58

enjoyed that as much as I did.

1:01:01

And I told you it would make you

1:01:01

look inwardly. Mike is such an

1:01:05

authentic guy. And his approach

1:01:05

to life is definitely worth

1:01:08

listening to. You know, his

1:01:08

message of being present of

1:01:11

harnessing the power of

1:01:11

meditation, and finding your

1:01:14

calling is the tonic that can

1:01:14

heal you. I feel like 2020 has

1:01:18

been such a difficult year for

1:01:18

all of us. And I just love the

1:01:22

way that Mike focuses on looking

1:01:22

inwardly and not being afraid to

1:01:26

be alone with your thoughts and

1:01:26

feelings. Every year, people all

1:01:30

around the world commit to New

1:01:30

Year's resolutions and then fall

1:01:33

off that waggon by the time

1:01:33

February rolls in. So as we move

1:01:37

into 2021, full of hope and

1:01:37

positivity for a better year.

1:01:41

Why not follow Mike's lead and

1:01:41

focus inwardly on yourself and

1:01:45

give yourself time to learn more

1:01:45

about who you are, what makes

1:01:48

you tick and crucially, what

1:01:48

fills your heart with joy. If

1:01:52

you want to hear more from Mike,

1:01:52

as you heard, you can find him

1:01:55

at back to the breast org where

1:01:55

you can find the links to all of

1:01:58

his content and his social

1:01:58

accounts. You will not be

1:02:01

disappointed please do look him

1:02:01

up. As always, if you can also

1:02:05

find the time to please follow

1:02:05

me on Instagram at one day

1:02:08

adventurer and let me know who

1:02:08

you think I should have on the

1:02:11

podcast as a guest in the

1:02:11

future. Please also if you can

1:02:14

click Subscribe on the podcast

1:02:14

leave me a review. It really

1:02:17

helps in securing awesome guests

1:02:17

for these interviews and it

1:02:21

doubles up as a great way for

1:02:21

you to hear the next episodes

1:02:23

just as they drop. In the

1:02:23

meantime, stay happy, stay

1:02:27

healthy, and remember to live

1:02:27

life adventurous