0:00

So hey, I just got

0:02

back from Tennessee. Howdy

0:04

y'all sweet Are you gonna say that

0:06

now like that's you know how like you ever know

0:08

those people in your life that like they go to

0:10

You know say England or something like some some country

0:12

and then they come back and they have kind of

0:14

a half accent like forever After that point I gotta

0:17

tell you the lift at the hotel was extremely

0:19

slow You're

0:22

gonna break John They

0:25

say howdy in Tennessee is that a howdy state I

0:27

don't even know to be honest with you Texas seems

0:29

like a howdy state It's definitely a y'all state. I

0:31

mean, I'm in a y'all state So who am I

0:33

to really throw stones on that issue? So yeah, I

0:36

kind of wish I was in a y'all state because

0:38

it's best like the the second person plural is extremely

0:40

useful And the rest of English doesn't really you know,

0:42

we just have you and you I think y'all is

0:44

spreading I think I need to see a y'all map.

0:46

I think it's spread. I don't think it's only Here

0:49

I hear it a lot around here. I

0:51

used it myself a lot at work. I

0:53

heard it a lot It works my job

0:56

you jobs. Yeah, I cannot fathom like unironically

0:58

not trying to do like it Just I

1:00

think it is it's not common, but I

1:02

think it's spreading. I am here for you

1:04

Mr. John Syracuse was saying y'all like that that

1:06

warms my I'm sure I have I'm sure I have

1:08

said it on the show And I bet you two

1:11

didn't even bat an eye at it. Well, I certainly

1:13

wouldn't so you're hearing it Like I didn't say it

1:15

with a southern accent. I just I

1:17

think you're required to say with a little bit

1:19

of a southern accent though like when you like

1:21

I feel like I mean for the service it

1:23

provides is wonderful and I thank the south of

1:25

this because like You know as as we have

1:27

become a little bit more aware of inclusion And

1:29

you know trying to get rid of gendered phrases

1:31

like guys, you know to refer to just general

1:33

people Hey guys, you know Like we're trying to

1:35

drop that and replace it with something more neutral

1:37

and you see like what options exist in the

1:40

language And there's not a lot of good options

1:42

out there You know, there's like some

1:44

some politicians have used like folks, you know, hey

1:46

folks, you like that one I use I use

1:48

all myself too. I think it's great. I don't

1:50

like that one so much very folksy Yeah, well,

1:52

yeah, and that's that's fine sometimes, but that's not

1:55

that's not always appropriate But I feel like if

1:57

you're in a y'all region y'all is pretty much

1:59

always usable, like there's not really

2:01

any context in which it would feel weird

2:03

or impart any additional meaning that you wouldn't

2:05

intend the way folks kind of does. So

2:07

I feel like y'all is a far superior

2:09

word. Wait, what unintended meaning does folks imply?

2:11

Yeah. It's kind of folksy. No.

2:15

It's funny. It just means people. It's just a shorter version

2:17

for people. I don't think there's anything in plot about folks.

2:20

Yeah, I think you're reading a little too much

2:22

into that. In fact, if anything, and I am

2:24

a staunch defender of y'all, but I think y'all

2:26

sounds more folksy than folks. Oh,

2:28

they're making out, right? Nevertheless, here

2:30

we are. So, yeah, so I went to

2:32

Memphis. I got to tell you,

2:34

there's clearly no motor vehicle safety inspection in

2:37

Tennessee because every darn car that I was

2:39

in or near had a shattered windshield. But

2:41

be that as it may. No, it was

2:43

very nice. I had a very good time.

2:45

I went and I saw our mutual friends,

2:47

Stephen Hackett, who of course lives in Memphis but was also hosting

2:49

in more ways than one, which we'll get to in a second.

2:52

I saw Jason Snell, Kathy Campbell, a couple of the

2:54

Discord mods, Micah Sargent. So many people that I saw,

2:56

and it was so great to see them because I

2:59

hadn't seen any of them since 2019. And

3:01

so now I've been whittling down the list of people I

3:04

haven't seen. Marco and I saw each

3:06

other in November, I believe it was, and then

3:08

Mike I saw in March, if I'm not mistaken.

3:11

Now I've seen this group. Someone

3:13

seen John. Looking right at John. Object

3:16

permanence. Even when you don't see me, I

3:18

still exist. In

3:20

any case, I was down in Memphis because

3:22

it is not September. However, we are getting

3:25

prepped for September because if you are a

3:27

long time or even a mildly long time

3:29

ATP listener, you'll know that September is Childhood

3:31

Cancer Awareness Month. And we spend a lot

3:33

of time and energy raising money for St.

3:35

Jude Children's Research Hospital. So St.

3:38

Jude was doing their Play Life

3:40

Plus Creator Summit, which I guess

3:42

was born from a video

3:45

game only crowd, like Twitch

3:47

streamers and whatnot. And

3:49

they would come in every year. And

3:52

they would come in and learn about St. Jude if they'd

3:54

never been there. And talk to

3:57

other creators about how you can be more effective at raising

3:59

money for St. Jude. and so on and so forth.

4:01

It was really lovely. But it was very, very

4:03

weird because I'm used to

4:05

being an outcast for being a total

4:07

dork. But in this case, I

4:09

was an outcast because I wasn't the right kind

4:11

of dork because everyone else... I

4:14

don't know. See, I was going to say, like, so

4:16

this is a thing where they were together with like

4:18

Twitch streamers and stuff and it sounds like this year

4:20

they decided to expand it out into much less cool

4:22

dorks. Correct. That is

4:24

true. Well, podcasters are welcome now. Well,

4:26

no, no. It was actually both less

4:29

cool and more cool dorks because there

4:31

were definitely some fashion influencers

4:33

and whatnot. Cooler. Definitely cooler. Fitness, I

4:35

couldn't think of a word for a

4:37

second there. Fitness people. Cooler. Then the

4:40

gamer people who were kind of de

4:42

facto cool because there were so many

4:44

of them and then the dark

4:47

crowd. Yeah, and then some podcasters. Yeah, and

4:49

then a handful of podcasters. But it was

4:51

very... Nobody made me feel like an outsider

4:53

deliberately, but it's funny because everyone kind of

4:55

traded on, you know, what do you stream

4:57

as in what video games do you stream?

4:59

And I had no good answer for that.

5:02

And again, nobody was trying to be rude or unkind or

5:04

anything like that or dismissive. It's just, you know, that's what

5:06

they were used to. But anyway... So what did you say

5:08

when they said, what do you stream? What did you say?

5:10

I actually don't. I am actually a

5:12

podcaster and, you know, I'm part of a group that raises a whole

5:14

pile of money. And they said, oh, and walked away. Pretty

5:17

much, yeah. They're like, oh, what's your YouTube

5:19

channel? Yeah, right. Exactly. No,

5:21

not quite that bad. But that's a fair guess. But

5:23

yeah, so we went and we learned a little

5:25

more about St. Jude and I got to take

5:28

a tour of the campus. And let me

5:30

tell you, I know that I think I speak for all three

5:33

of us, but I certainly speak for myself in saying I was

5:35

pretty in the bag for St. Jude anyway,

5:37

even before this trip. And holy crap,

5:39

Amole, I am so in the bag

5:41

for St. Jude right now. It's ridiculous

5:43

because the stuff these people do is

5:45

incredible. And I mean, admittedly, you know,

5:47

this is a conference or whatever put

5:49

on by St. Jude to make you

5:51

excited about St. Jude. So, you know,

5:53

I am considering the source. However, they

5:55

brought up several different people, both employees

5:57

and patients and everyone in between that

5:59

said flavor of the story

6:01

of, yeah, either myself or my spouse

6:03

or, you know, my son or daughter,

6:06

my cousin or what have you, had

6:08

an extraordinarily weird and

6:11

probably uncurable illness. I

6:14

was told by my doctors, I have a 10% chance to

6:16

live. Then somebody had the idea, ooh,

6:19

let's call St. Jude and see what happens. And

6:21

then within hours I had plane tickets to Memphis

6:23

and within days I was getting treated. And there

6:25

were many of these stories. It's

6:28

unreal what they do there. It's just incredible. And they

6:30

were talking about the Family Commons, which I think we

6:32

talked about during September last year, but basically they took

6:35

an entire floor of the hospital and said, here's what

6:37

we're going to do. We're going to not

6:39

do hospital things here. We're going to have a salon. We're going

6:41

to have a place where you can get your nails done. We're

6:43

going to have classrooms. We're going to have

6:45

maker space. They told a story of a young

6:47

girl that, you know, was terminal.

6:50

She knew she was, you know, going to

6:52

pass and she decided to make an album

6:54

for her family to listen to after she

6:56

passed away. Like, I basically cried for

6:58

three straight days. It was not. So I know

7:02

it's not September. I know we're not quite ready to start

7:04

to try to guilt you into giving us all, well, not

7:06

us, giving them all of your money. But

7:08

let's just say I am so prepared

7:11

to triple down on giving St. Jude

7:13

as much of your hard earned money

7:15

as we possibly can, because they really

7:17

do just incredible, incredible work there. And

7:19

it's so incredibly moving, the work that they do. And I

7:22

put a blog post up about this. We'll link it in

7:24

the show notes. But there's

7:26

a pavilion of some

7:28

sort, I think that's what they call it, on campus

7:30

where the founders are actually interred. But it's also kind

7:32

of like a history of St. Jude. And

7:34

they had this easel sort of thing up. And

7:37

it says, what inspires you? And then a bunch

7:39

of Post-it notes were pre-printed on the Post-it notes

7:41

was, I went to St. Jude and was inspired

7:43

by, and you know, I was killing some time. So I was looking

7:45

around at some of these answers. And a lot of them are just

7:47

really adorable and cute and whatever. But one

7:49

of them, and I have pictures of both of these

7:51

on this blog post, one of them reads it clearly

7:54

in the handwriting of a child. I

7:57

went to St. Jude and I was inspired by the fact

7:59

that I will make. it with a heart below

8:01

it like holy balls my I mean cheesy

8:03

peasy then the next one I went to

8:05

St. Jude and was inspired by the lives

8:08

they saved including mine I mean how can

8:10

you not be excited about this organization so

8:13

this was a part of the reason a large part

8:15

of the reason I was there is because in September we're

8:17

gonna have a weird recording schedule because I will be

8:19

at st. Jude for the relay FM podcastathon which is

8:21

12 hours of non-stop

8:24

shenanigans I don't even know how to describe it if

8:26

you've not tuned in you really should even you know

8:29

even if I don't end up going for some strange

8:31

reason you should tune in because

8:33

it's incredible and this organization it really

8:36

does it's phenomenal

8:38

incredible important life-changing life

8:41

saving work and I'm

8:43

so proud that the three of us have done

8:46

so much to raise money for them I'm so

8:48

proud to be associated with relay who has done

8:50

so so much to raise money for them

8:52

it's just such an incredible incredible place and

8:55

there's also really good barbecue real right nearby which

8:57

is a which is a nice that always helps

9:00

that always helps I know it's a lot

9:02

of fun at Memphis we went to the pyramid which is

9:04

a Bass Pro Shops which you two northerners know nothing about

9:07

and we also had some barbecue and we got

9:09

to visit the pod cabin so I took a

9:11

picture with my cardboard cutout from the

9:13

last podcast the fun if you don't want to talk

9:15

about what you know you should find out watch the

9:17

podcast on September but it was a really good time Steven's

9:20

great host and we had a ton of fun and

9:22

I'm so excited to go back in September and try

9:24

to raise a whole pile of money for St. Jude let's

9:28

start with some follow-up and

9:31

pretty much the whole of the internet wrote

9:33

to tell us about this tip which I

9:35

had known but in the heat

9:38

of the moment I didn't think of it at

9:40

all and so I failed you John but friend

9:42

of the show Dan Sturm has come through and

9:44

told us there is a way to toggle a

9:46

dimmable light in the home app and in HomeKit

9:48

John what's the story here secret

9:51

is you have to tap the

9:53

icon on the button not

9:55

the whole rest of the button which includes the text

9:57

in a bunch of other area people

10:00

wrote in with the idea that this used

10:02

to be reversed and it used

10:04

to be if you tapped anywhere but the icon it

10:06

would toggle the light on and off I don't know

10:09

if that's true or not but anyway I

10:11

tested it and it does indeed work I was complaining that

10:13

every time I go to control center or tap the home

10:15

icon and you know try to mess with my light type

10:17

that brings up the dimmer and someone sent me a video

10:19

and they said it doesn't bring up the dimmer for me

10:21

it turns my light on and off it's a dimmable light

10:23

but when I tap it it turns on and turns off

10:26

completely and I just I did it on

10:28

my phone I'm like nope brings up the dimmer for

10:30

me and we never would have figured this out until

10:34

hundreds of people said yes you have to

10:36

tap specifically on the icon these are very

10:38

big buttons they're very big touch targets and

10:40

I guess I just always tap on the

10:43

you know three-quarters of the button that is

10:46

not the icon maybe because I'm using my thumb and I'm

10:48

coming from the right side because I'm using my right hand

10:51

but yeah that's some slightly undiscoverable UI

10:53

but it is good to know it's not like the icon

10:55

is small now that I know it I think I'll be

10:57

able to aim for it I kind of wish it was

10:59

reverse or I still kind of wish you could just say

11:01

just make the whole button talk light on and off but

11:03

there you have it the icon does

11:05

something different than the whole rest of the button

11:09

Pedro Fernandez has some information

11:11

about the haze AT command set was this born

11:13

out of the member special is that right is

11:15

that where this started or was that on the

11:17

main I assume so yeah because we were talking

11:19

about like you know me getting all these old

11:21

slow modems moly over time and still remembering all

11:23

the AT commands mm-hmm so Pedro writes AT commands

11:25

are far from being a thing of the past

11:27

oh no if you do any

11:29

kind of development with 4g or 5g connectivity

11:31

data modules or modems you talk

11:34

to them with AT commands ATA answer

11:36

ATD dial are all still alive and

11:38

yes they remain a pain I've worked

11:40

on hundreds of systems and they all require

11:43

a routine quote-unquote cron reboot to make sure

11:45

that they keep answering those AT commands sounds

11:47

great you don't want to drive 300 miles

11:49

unfreeze a 4g or 5g data module yeah

11:52

that that sounds right it's amazing

11:54

that our modern technology and

11:56

our modern phone systems this things like

11:58

this live on They really

12:00

shouldn't. They really, really shouldn't. But, you

12:03

know, here we are. TSMC

12:05

has unveiled advanced 1.6 nanometer process

12:07

for 2026 chips. Do

12:11

we eventually get to zero? Is that how this

12:13

works? Because holy jamari. Yeah, as

12:16

we've discussed before, more law does end because at a

12:18

certain point you can't make things smaller. Well, I mean,

12:20

to be fair, like when I was growing up, I

12:22

believe these are measured in micrometers. So

12:24

the unit has just changed to the next

12:26

smaller unit. I mean, you're right. Eventually, you

12:28

know, we can't make them smaller because we

12:30

run into problems of like physics. Yeah. But

12:32

we are not there yet. This

12:35

was from MacRumors from just a few

12:37

days ago. TSMC yesterday on April 24th

12:39

unveiled a series of technologies including the

12:42

quote-unquote A16 process, which is a 1.6

12:44

nanometer node. The

12:47

A16 technology, which TSMC plans to begin producing

12:49

in 2026, incorporates innovative

12:51

nanoshoot transistors along with

12:53

novel backside power rail solution. This

12:56

development is expected to provide an 8 to

12:58

10 percent increase in speed and 15 to

13:00

20 percent reduction in power consumption at the

13:02

same speeds compared with TSMC's N2P

13:04

process alongside a 1.07 to 1.1x

13:07

chip density improvement. I

13:11

put this story in here for two reasons. One, I had

13:14

just been discussing on Mastodon someone had mentioned TSMC's

13:16

backside power thing, and I'm like, I thought that

13:18

was an Intel thing. I think we talked about

13:20

it in a show a while ago where Intel

13:22

has the technology to send power through the bottom

13:24

of the chip instead of the top because if you send it

13:26

through the top, you've got to like wiggle it around all the

13:29

logic to get it to the power spots where if you send

13:31

it from the bottom, it's a more direct

13:33

route and you don't have to do that complicated

13:35

weaving through all the logic that you put in

13:37

the chip. So that's interesting. This is confirming that

13:39

TSMC does have a backside power solution, which is

13:41

good. And the second reason

13:43

is they're calling it A16, as

13:46

if we didn't have enough problems

13:48

with Macs powered

13:50

by the M3 Macs and

13:53

keeping track of the fact that the

13:55

A5 was the first A-series chip, but it was not

13:57

in the iPhone 5. The

14:00

Process: A sixteen. We are doomed on

14:02

this her home. Hate this, the need

14:04

to come up with new names for

14:07

things. This is going to be the

14:09

A Nineteen Sip made on the A

14:11

Sixteen process. And

14:13

and a D at the at the M five.

14:15

Tip is not based on the A seventeen. Cars

14:17

is based on a nineteen cards me a sixteen

14:20

process. It's a good they were going to

14:22

Season of Iowa S a T which is also

14:24

watch Us Eleven which is also there's no us

14:26

to and matter what Emery at Mac O S

14:28

now I've forgotten already. I mean with all the

14:30

really goes as a like and to been into

14:32

even and to peel is that was different than

14:34

it. the synthesis. We're

14:39

brought his episode by trade. Coffee,

14:41

Trade Coffee Believe anyone to make

14:43

great coffee at home, all you

14:45

need is access to the best

14:47

beans roasted to order and curated

14:49

for your personal taste, which is

14:51

exactly what Trade provides. thanks to

14:53

their in house team of coffee

14:55

experts, over fifty small batch specialty

14:58

coffee partners and over four hundred

15:00

and fifty rotating bros available, so

15:02

Trade is amazing. I've used Trade

15:04

myself. I've got lots of great

15:06

coffee from them and. Really York's have

15:08

to tell them much like seats empty, give them

15:10

some guidelines and what you like, and then you

15:12

just let them do their thing and you just

15:15

get a wonderful variety of coffee sent to you

15:17

however you need it, whether it's weekly, every other

15:19

week, however much you need, whether you need whole

15:21

bean or ground, whatever really. And of course, like,

15:23

you know, if you have too much have you

15:26

gone on vacation, you can pause it, you can

15:28

suspend that, you can delay, and you can adjust

15:30

things whenever you like, so it's super easy. It's

15:32

it'll adapt to your schedule very very easily. No

15:34

hassle and coffee Different trade is super freshly roasted,

15:36

which is key to. making great coffee and

15:39

i've had some amazing coffees from their their

15:41

hit reed is really good for me and

15:43

again i had to tell them almost nothing

15:45

and they just hit exit the yosemite stuff

15:48

every every week or two and it's just

15:50

amazing so from dark roast to the task

15:52

espressos to cold brew you can discover the

15:54

best coffee suited to your taste great gift

15:56

you graduations are coming up soon father's day

15:59

Summer birthdays like mine coming up. So it's

16:01

not too early to begin thinking about perfect

16:03

gifts and you really can't go wrong with

16:05

better coffee. Great gift, love

16:07

it. So give trade a try for a

16:10

month and see how you can make better

16:12

coffee at home. Right now they're offering 30%

16:14

off your first month of

16:17

coffee when you visit drinktrade.com/ATP.

16:20

That's drinktrade.com/ATP for 30%

16:22

off a month of

16:24

coffee. Thank you

16:26

so much to Trade

16:28

Coffee for sponsoring our

16:30

show. We've

16:55

got the Verge, the

16:58

blog post about it. It's not

17:00

looking good, y'all. There it is. It's

17:02

not looking good. The CMROBO's

17:05

video is good because it shows you

17:07

all the functionality and how poorly it

17:09

works. The MKBHD one is

17:11

just a straight review as you would

17:13

expect. The MKBHD's title is barely reviewable.

17:15

The Verge title is a fun,

17:18

funky, unfinished AI gadget. I

17:20

recall when we talked about

17:22

the RABIDAR one originally, everything

17:25

was framed as if this works is a really good idea.

17:27

I think at some point one of us

17:29

even said if this works, which it won't. Well,

17:31

it doesn't. Well, in all fairness,

17:33

I'm pretty sure I was always of the don't

17:35

bet against the smartphone opinion. Yeah, but

17:38

even setting that aside, just like the whole idea,

17:40

what they're trying to do is clever, but

17:43

it doesn't seem like they're going to be able to do it. Now,

17:45

the first version, and when I say it doesn't seem like they're going

17:47

to be able to do it, will it

17:49

do the things they say it will do?

17:51

And the answer right now is no.

17:54

It tries to. It Tries to do,

17:56

like, for example, you speak to it and it can

17:58

order something from Dardash. But does it

18:00

order? something? isn't darnedest. Pretty.

18:02

Much know like wants wants the marlies video like

18:05

know he he could not make it do the

18:07

thing. Ah, And he's had to

18:09

fall videos with slightly more success, but it takes.

18:12

So. Long that setting aside everything

18:14

having to do with like you know,

18:17

Whether the says should be a phone or

18:19

our our it's because it's it's it's a

18:21

small company, It's a new product. It's new

18:23

technology is trying to do new things which

18:25

is like you know automating the function that

18:27

automating the use of a are you I

18:29

made for humans are having a computer do

18:32

it in response to have you avoid site.

18:34

At the very clever solution to the

18:36

problem that a star of like this

18:38

doesn't have it on Mars lives while

18:40

can't do deals Had door-of Athens Ga

18:42

rounded. very good idea. Execution.

18:45

Is. Not good even within the constraints

18:47

of the idea that they had. which the

18:50

same, but you know, hey, it's two hundred

18:52

bucks which the third of the price of

18:54

the yeah, the Humane pen and the company

18:56

seems like a lot more fun and this

18:58

is just version one. And if they survive

19:00

long enough or maybe it'll be aversion to

19:02

an aversion. three and I'll fix their bugs.

19:04

So. I'd even though the it

19:06

seems like you'd put this on the humane pin

19:08

the same bucket of like out that his idea

19:10

of the things are going to talk to it

19:13

is gonna do stuff for you and baboons and

19:15

quite work I haven't ah kind your feelings for

19:17

the rabbit are one of because it's cute, are

19:19

cheaper and has a better idea. Ah,

19:21

but neither one of them seems like it's really don't what

19:24

you wanted. I ultimately I don't think

19:26

either of them is a good idea and

19:28

and I I think I've been pretty consistent

19:30

on this. These are ideas that we as

19:32

gadget people and as test people. We want

19:34

things like this to succeed. We we want

19:36

them to be good but ultimately of which

19:38

I think we'll get to the second but

19:41

ultimately like. The. Phone is going to

19:43

slaughter all these things in what we ultimately

19:45

want. Is. For our phones

19:47

to just do these things this,

19:49

that's what we want. We don't

19:51

want to buy and Terry and

19:53

charge and maintain and pay for

19:55

plans for another device. We just

19:57

want our phone to his end.

20:00

There's really no. Like

20:03

technical hardware. Reason why our phones

20:05

can't do this like it isn't

20:08

like we need custom hardware. To.

20:10

Have these kind of a I think know

20:12

a week we already have it in our

20:14

phones and maybe are watches to like? That's

20:17

that's for you. Want this functionality? You want

20:19

it in the devices we already have. That.

20:21

We're have already bought that are already extremely

20:23

advanced with their hardware. There you know their

20:25

cellular connected there. They have amazing processors, the

20:28

have amazing cameras. They have touchscreens that are

20:30

super easy to navigate stuff arm and you

20:32

doing to look as mayor watch or look

20:34

at controls or whatever. They're already integrated with

20:36

all of your contacts and everything with that

20:39

all the their apps you might want to

20:41

use in the process with. Ultimately,

20:43

What we want. Is that

20:46

we want this on our phones

20:48

and. Probably. Over

20:50

the next in of months and

20:52

about seven days we're probably gonna

20:54

see. Both. Make your smartphone

20:56

a platform. Vendors unveil exactly that.

20:58

like I, I fully expect Google,

21:01

Io, and Wtc to give us

21:03

all sorts of promise about things

21:05

that and written I phones will

21:07

be able to do in the

21:09

very near future. That.

21:12

Will make us very rapidly stop

21:14

talking about. This. Being separate harbor

21:16

categories because ultimately be this is not destined

21:18

to be separate have category this is all

21:20

destinies be part of our phones. The.

21:23

Reason we're talking about on the So

21:25

I'll and the reason these products exist

21:27

is connected. Unfortunately for the people who

21:29

don't like this topic to the whole

21:31

you Dm A D O J everything

21:34

because the reason these things are standalone

21:36

devices. Is. The have to Be They have

21:38

to be and they and they also they wanna be on

21:40

the have to be they wanna be and that like lucky

21:42

you're trying to if you wanna be the next apple. Are.

21:45

making an app for the i phone is not the

21:47

way to do the next apple so if you have

21:50

ambitions like we're going to make that's right platform a

21:52

we see an opportunity here where the big players haven't

21:54

jumped on a i'm we think this is a way

21:56

that we can get in so let's imagine this the

21:58

nice really did that magically that somehow only rabbit

22:00

or only humane have the secret sauce to make it

22:03

work. And they had a couple of year head start

22:05

on Apple and they're like, if we can get big

22:07

and we can get going, yes, we're at a big

22:09

disadvantage, but like maybe we'll outrun them or whatever. Obviously

22:11

that has not happened, right? So they want to be

22:13

their own, but also they have to be their own

22:16

because to make anything like this, and I think there

22:18

is some reason to have separate hardware,

22:20

as in like a thing with a camera that you pin to

22:22

your lapel or whatever, is that the

22:25

integration they need with the phone platforms, they tend not

22:27

to be able to get certainly with Apple, I'm not

22:29

sure with Android, but like, for example, you can't replace

22:31

Siri on the iPhone. So if your ambition is to

22:34

be a much better Siri and but replace Siri on

22:36

the phone, that would be great. Everyone's

22:38

got the phones, we're charging them, they're incredibly powerful. Someone else runs

22:40

the platform, you don't have to do it. Oh,

22:43

Apple doesn't let you replace Siri, do they? And they don't

22:45

let you integrate with their phone so tightly that you have

22:47

like is that it's almost like Apple

22:49

doesn't let its own watch integrate that well with it

22:51

because there's so much connectivity issues between the watches and

22:53

phones, it's gotten better over time, but still. So

22:56

there was a story in 9to5Mac that said

22:58

AI hardware is like trying to invent the

23:00

iPod after the iPhone. And the whole story,

23:03

not once did they mention the fact that

23:05

these companies are forced to do this because

23:07

the people who own the platforms are not

23:09

interested in allowing a third party to essentially

23:11

be a peripheral to the phone. And that's what

23:14

we want. Like with these devices, you know, AirPods

23:16

are a great example, they are a peripheral to the

23:18

phone. Imagine if AirPods tried to be a standalone device

23:20

with a little computer, I mean, they do have little

23:23

computers, but like a standalone device with zone OS doing

23:25

everything all on itself, right, connecting to cellular and Wi

23:27

Fi and just like they didn't get to the phone

23:29

at all, right? That's like what these companies are doing.

23:31

You're like, why would you do that? We have phones

23:34

and they have amazing computing power. It's like, yeah, but

23:36

I can't integrate with them in the way I need

23:38

to write so AirPods are great. But

23:41

imagine something with like a camera or a lapel or

23:43

a microphone, like auxiliary

23:45

hardware, a peripheral for your phone, a thing

23:47

that you don't have to take out of

23:49

your pocket. But of course, uses your phone

23:51

to do all this stuff. That's

23:54

what these products want to be, but can't

23:56

be. So the fact that these companies are

23:58

trying to do things that we. think are,

24:00

the reason they're technically clever is because

24:02

they're working around an unfortunate business situation,

24:05

which is they can't be the products they

24:07

want to be, but every time one of

24:10

these products gets funded, tries to do this

24:12

and fails, and we look at it and

24:14

say, that's a clever way to try to

24:16

work around a sort of unfair market. That

24:18

is reinforcement to all of these court

24:21

cases and regulations or whatever saying,

24:23

this is not a competitive market

24:25

where innovation can flourish, because basically

24:27

we have to sit back and

24:29

wait until Google and Apple decide

24:31

that they're going to do something, and a

24:33

WWC Apple will do something, and Google already is

24:36

doing things, but we don't want to have to

24:38

wait for these two companies to decide what kind

24:40

of things they want to do. People

24:42

have other ideas, and they would like to do

24:44

them, but asking them to say, to do that,

24:46

you have to start from zero, build your own

24:49

platform, your own everything, be completely

24:51

independent of the phone, because the phone companies

24:53

are never, not the phone companies, are

24:55

never going to get the integration you need. That's

24:58

why this is mostly a story about the

25:01

awkward shape of the market, and

25:04

people are cleverly trying to get around it. It's not

25:06

like they're all doomed to failure. Again, if AI was

25:08

better than it was, and one of these companies really

25:10

hit it out of the park, there is a couple

25:12

years of runway before the companies try to buy you,

25:15

where you could get out ahead and start doing

25:17

something. Like what did we see recently? Maybe

25:20

you could say maybe the Pebble Watch had a little

25:22

traction before the Apple Watch squished it. Every once in

25:24

a while, there's something that gets out ahead of one

25:26

of the big tech giants before the tech giants wake

25:28

up and smush it. In this case,

25:30

they don't sell smushed. I

25:34

give them points for trying, and especially Rabbit,

25:36

I give a lot of points for coming

25:38

up with a low-cost,

25:40

clever attempt to work

25:43

around the giants. But yeah, this is not

25:45

what we want. We want our AirPods to

25:47

let us yell things into the air. We

25:50

want a little tiny lapel, microphone, or camera

25:52

to see everything around us and explain everything,

25:54

and we want a pair of glasses to

25:56

put name tags over people's heads. We're

25:58

not quite there yet. There

26:00

are a couple of interesting things about this first

26:02

of all I thought it was very very well

26:05

done I think it was mentioned in the nine

26:07

to five that nine to five Mac link that

26:09

Dave 2d who's a youtuber I Put

26:12

together a clip of this that I'll put the

26:14

show notes But is looking at the the rabbit

26:16

and says well, you know He

26:19

does a much better version than me, but you know

26:21

well What if we took this like the the push

26:23

to talk button moved it to the other side and

26:25

actually let's make them volume buttons And then we can

26:27

do like the push to talk button Maybe somewhere else

26:30

we put the camera on the back now. He's got

26:32

a lot more space for the screen Oh look, we've

26:34

made a phone like you know Just by making the

26:36

things this is coming back to what you were saying

26:38

market like by making the thing worked better for the

26:41

thing It's trying to accomplish you've just reinvented the smartphone

26:43

I mean and the rabbit does run Android and is

26:45

that people have discovered that basically the thing that's running

26:47

is essentially an Android App that you can take you

26:49

can rip off of the rabbit and put it on

26:51

an Android phone and run it there I love that.

26:53

This is like a big story. Like of course, that's

26:55

what it is Did you think they wrote

26:57

their own operating system like the play date? Well,

26:59

I mean, yeah that that's fairly unusual and

27:01

like so much of You

27:04

know modern hardware devices like my scanner is just

27:06

an Android app and Android and Android of course

27:08

is just Linux and What

27:11

the language is running is just Java. Yeah, there's there's

27:13

a whole bunch of hardware out there That

27:15

is quote just an Android app running on some

27:17

kind of commodity Android tablet kind of guts and

27:19

you know It just so happens. Oh, here's a

27:22

scanner with a touchscreen. Like well, what do you

27:24

think is powering that? Right? A

27:26

lot of times it's Android. It's fine. Like that's people

27:29

made a big deal out of this. Oh my god It's

27:31

just an app. Like yeah, of course, that's that's not a

27:33

story. The story is this device can't compete with smartphones

27:35

That's the that's the story. Yeah, and the thing

27:37

is like It's why

27:39

why didn't you just make a phone? Oh, well

27:41

making a phone first off You just made another

27:43

Android phone great now, you're just another Android phone

27:45

vendor. That's a tough business It's competitive Like making

27:47

a good Android phone is not an easy thing

27:49

to do and second that didn't want to just

27:51

make it an Android phone They want they wanted

27:53

to be like the next big thing and that's

27:55

why they're taking a stab in this direction Now

27:58

I don't know what the integration situation is like

28:00

an Android, can you replace the Google Assistant

28:02

on Google or Samsung branded Android phones, or

28:04

any of the Android phones that matter? How

28:07

open is it to you integrating to have

28:10

an always reliable, always connected type

28:12

of high speed, low latency connection

28:14

between a peripheral and the thing,

28:17

more than just Bluetooth, right? I don't

28:19

know what that situation is like, but obviously none

28:21

of these companies were interested in going that

28:23

route. They tried to be as standalone

28:26

as they could possibly be, and being

28:28

standalone is a tough gig. That's kind of another

28:30

thing that Rabbit did, and humane for that matter,

28:33

no apps. Why no apps? Do you want to

28:35

try to run a platform? Do you know what

28:37

it's involved with trying to run a platform and

28:39

vending APIs and tools? And like that's insane, like

28:41

there have been very few successful computing platforms in

28:43

our entire lives. You can like count them on

28:46

like fingers and toes, right? There's not that many

28:48

of them. Running one successfully is incredibly hard. So

28:50

these things are like, we're not even gonna try

28:52

to do that. We're just gonna like be an

28:54

appliance, a magical appliance through the use of AI.

28:56

Maybe we can be independent, and unfortunately

28:59

the magic they relied on were LLMs that

29:01

are not up to this job, which

29:03

is a shame. The other thing

29:05

I thought was fascinating about this was

29:08

watching the reactions from the

29:10

press, from my own like gut

29:12

reaction. When, and we

29:14

don't need to belabor this, but you know the

29:16

humane people were talking about how their, you know,

29:19

God's gift to software and hardware development, and how,

29:21

oh, we're the best, we're the best, we're revolutionizing,

29:23

we're destroying the smartphone. Look at us and how

29:25

smart we are at our colorways and this and

29:27

that, and everyone pooped all over them because they

29:30

deserved it. With this, the

29:33

reaction I've seen is, yeah, it's kind of

29:35

trash, but man, it's cute, and it's fun,

29:37

and it's cheap, so who cares? And it's

29:40

just so funny to me that an ounce

29:42

of humility, it really does go a long

29:44

way. And when you're not trying to convince

29:46

everyone that you're the second coming, it

29:49

turns out people are more receptive to even when

29:51

things aren't perfect. Although I will say the Jesse

29:53

Fellow seem to be kicking rocks in humane's direction

29:56

an awful lot lately, but I still think the

29:58

broader point is fair that. Maybe just

30:00

don't be a jerk and things will work

30:02

out a little better for you. Yeah, and the RABBA was

30:04

just so much more pragmatic. Such a cheaper device. The

30:07

hardware is cute but also cheap, right? Their business

30:09

model of trying to work around the big companies.

30:11

I don't know, people are like, $200, that's not

30:13

cheap. Compared to 600 it is. Like

30:15

if you're gonna blow $200 on something that doesn't work, it

30:17

feels much better than blowing 600 on it. I

30:20

mean, they put a screen on it. Another example,

30:22

they're like, well, let's just, how about we have

30:24

a screen? How about that? Instead of like a

30:27

laser projector, right? It's simpler, cheaper, it shows more

30:29

pragmatic choices. But

30:32

in the end, they're doomed to failure. But

30:37

it's a tough gig to coming out with a product like

30:40

that with so much attention on you for 1.0. Yeah,

30:43

it is. Yeah, it doesn't. And

30:45

I think both of them, I'm

30:48

gonna say they don't work spectacular failures,

30:50

but it's pretty big failure when it's not like,

30:52

oh, it's a little slower, it's a little clunky,

30:54

it's a little buggy. Both of them have cases

30:56

where they just simply do not do what the

30:58

product is supposed to do, and that is not

31:01

really shippable. But they both ship, so there you have

31:03

it. All

31:06

right, moving along. Riley Tested has some

31:08

feedback and information, not specifically to us, but

31:11

just general feedback with regard to Delta availability.

31:13

So a two from Riley, getting

31:16

some questions about Delta availability. I hope

31:18

this clarifies things. Delta is exclusive to

31:20

Alt Store in the EU. Because

31:22

of Apple's new developer terms, all downloads

31:24

in the EU cost us 50 euro

31:26

cents a year in Alt Store Pal

31:28

and the App Store. So we

31:30

couldn't offer Delta in the EU App Stores

31:32

without making it paid. App Store

31:35

only supports one-time paid upfront apps, so we'd

31:37

have to pick a price that could support

31:40

years of the core technology fee. Alt

31:43

Store, Pals, one dollar, or one

31:45

euro, excuse me, in 50 cent

31:47

cost covers Delta's core technology fee,

31:50

and they would choose to make everything free

31:52

everywhere if it wasn't for the core technology

31:54

fee. So, I mean, you made

31:57

this bad EU, so now you gotta sleep in it. Apple

32:00

made the bet. Why is it

32:02

exclusive to the Alt-Star and the EU? Because of the CTF.

32:07

I think it's a little comedy, but you're more right than

32:09

wrong. Moving along, iPad OS

32:11

has been identified as a quote-unquote

32:13

digital gatekeeper under the new EU

32:15

tech rules. So picking

32:18

some snippets from Mac rumors, last

32:20

September the European Commission designated Apple as a

32:23

gatekeeper for its iOS iPhone operating system, its

32:25

web browser Safari, and its App Store. On

32:27

the same day, the Commission opened a market investigation

32:29

to whether iPad OS constitutes an important gateway for

32:31

business users to reach end users in order to

32:33

determine if it should be designated as a gatekeeper.

32:36

The investigation is now closed. According to an

32:38

EC press release shared on Monday, the Commission's

32:40

investigation found that Apple presents the features of

32:43

a gatekeeper in relation to iPad OS for

32:45

the following reasons. Apple, number one,

32:47

Apple's business user numbers exceeded the quantitative

32:49

threshold 11-fold, while its end

32:51

user numbers were close to the threshold and predicted to

32:53

rise in the near future. Number

32:56

two, end users are locked into

32:58

iPad OS. Apple leverages its large

33:00

ecosystem to disincentivize end users from

33:02

switching to other operating systems for

33:04

tablets. And number three, business users

33:06

are locked into iPad OS because of its large

33:08

and commercially attractive user base and its importance for

33:10

certain use cases such as gaming apps. The

33:13

Commission has now given Apple a six-month deadline to fully comply

33:15

with the obligations set by the DMA, which

33:19

means we should expect enforced changes in iOS

33:21

and iPad OS like alternative app stores, web

33:23

distribution, and alternative browsers, and that should all

33:25

come to iPad OS as well in a

33:27

forthcoming update. I think this makes sense. I

33:31

like how the reasons are like, well, we have a bunch

33:33

of criteria. I bet almost meets them, but whatever. It's the

33:35

same thing, right? I mean, like I don't see why they

33:37

need to justify it or have some kind of rules. Like

33:42

it's kind of weird that iPad OS didn't get folded

33:44

in to begin with, but they went

33:47

through this little dance to say, you know what?

33:49

Yep, iPad OS too. And arguably,

33:52

potentially one of

33:54

many possible motivations for Apple

33:56

renaming iPad OS to be

33:58

its own OS was to be. to try to make

34:01

it distinct in all legal circumstances

34:03

or whatever, but the thing is, the

34:05

EC can do whatever the hell they want, and this is what they wanna do,

34:07

so. And it just,

34:09

honestly, it makes it simpler, because I have time

34:11

always forgetting, oh yeah, there's no

34:14

alternative marketplaces on iPadOS, but now there

34:16

will be, and it's more consistent for

34:18

Apple, it's more consistent for users, it just

34:20

makes more sense. So. Yep,

34:23

I mean, this is good, this is good, it's good work

34:25

to you. Mark Dorman

34:27

writes, no Apple Vision 2 launch plan before the

34:29

end of 2026. So,

34:32

no FOMO for, well, I was gonna say Mark when

34:34

me, but I guess just me, until the

34:36

end of 2026. From

34:39

MacRumors again, German says that Apple's latest

34:41

Vision Pro roadmap, quote, doesn't currently call

34:44

for a second generation model until the

34:46

end of 2026, quote. In

34:49

February of 2024, he said that the device

34:51

was at least 18 months away. According to

34:53

German sources, Apple's still trying to figure out a way to bring a cheaper

34:55

version of market before then, although the company

34:57

remains flummoxed by how exactly to

34:59

bring down the cost. Kind

35:01

of tangentially related, I don't recall if we

35:03

said this on the show, but they did

35:06

actually release the second episode of the, what

35:08

is it, encounter dinosaurs or something like that? Immersive

35:10

video, yeah, this is like a week or two

35:12

ago, actually, and I think it might have been

35:14

right after we recorded last, and because of our

35:16

travel, it's been a wonky recording schedule for us,

35:18

but it has been released, and it's

35:20

another like five minute thing, and it was fine.

35:23

I did have somebody reach out on Mastodon

35:25

and said, hey, I worked on this, and

35:27

just so you know, it's, I was

35:30

gonna say historically accurate, I guess that's not the right

35:32

turn of phrase, it's scientifically accurate based on the understanding

35:34

that we have today, so like, things that should have

35:36

feathers, have feathers, and colors are as best as we

35:38

think they could be at the time. I won't be

35:41

able to dig up these toots to link to them,

35:43

I'm sorry, but I did find that

35:45

fascinating, but in terms of

35:47

like a compelling cinematic experience, it was

35:50

fine. Yeah. Yeah,

35:52

I guess that's what this means, I mean, waiting

35:55

this long for a new model

35:57

to come out, like that's really putting more cold

35:59

water on top. of the abolition pro market.

36:01

But what it basically means is the parts in

36:03

this that are expensive are not

36:05

getting cheaper fast enough for Apple to come

36:07

out with a substantially cheaper model sooner it

36:10

seems like. And what I assume what that

36:12

means is the screens, right? Because we know

36:14

that the M series SOCs, the cost of

36:16

those, you know, they're not the most expensive

36:19

component in this thing anyway. And Apple has

36:21

some control over that. And the

36:23

aluminum and stuff, that's kind of the same. Yes,

36:25

they could make it cheaper by dropping the screen

36:27

by dropping the front screen. But the screens that

36:29

are in front of your eyeballs are not

36:32

made by a lot of companies, are not

36:34

in wide supply, and apparently are not going

36:36

to get cheap enough, fast enough for Apple

36:38

to come out with something sooner. So there's

36:40

going to be a long wait with the

36:42

one it's like, who

36:44

would have predicted that the the

36:46

Apple like the glasses, the goggles, the VR,

36:49

whatever we were talking about the headset, the

36:51

what we were talking about before this was

36:53

released, that will end up being essentially an

36:55

HomePod like product, when they release one, and

36:57

it sits there and people go, hmm, Apple

37:00

still doing this thing or so? I know

37:04

it's not a good, a good

37:06

comparison when people start thinking of your product

37:08

the same way they think of the HomePod,

37:10

the big HomePod that is, but if this

37:13

is true, and there's not any other Vision

37:15

Pro hardware until the end of 2026, that's

37:19

HomePod vibes. Well, and

37:21

I don't think that's, you

37:24

know, people are making a big deal out of that news. I don't

37:27

think that's that surprising. I

37:30

think the bigger surprise for me with this

37:32

launch is that Apple seems to be putting

37:34

no wood behind the arrow. Like there's there's

37:36

just like no content besides one episode of

37:38

dinosaurs, I guess. Cool. But like, what this

37:40

product needs, yeah, it needs to be radically

37:42

cheaper. But as you mentioned, like there's some

37:44

pretty critical inhibitions to making it cheaper that

37:46

are going to stay that way for probably

37:49

at least like five years. Like, you know, we're not

37:51

close to making it cheaper, at least a lot cheaper. Like,

37:53

yeah, yeah, you know, you can make it a little

37:55

bit cheaper with some of the cuts here and there,

37:57

as you're mentioning, but like, it's not going

37:59

to be a a mass market priced device

38:01

for some time, if ever. So

38:04

in the meantime, all right, how do you make

38:06

what it is, this $3,500 plus device, how

38:11

do you make that valuable to the people

38:13

who will buy it, who can afford it? And

38:16

that's the part, the surprise to me is that

38:19

there doesn't seem to be a lot happening there

38:21

yet. I would have

38:23

assumed, since there really was no competitive

38:25

pressure to release this when they did, I

38:28

would have assumed it would be more like

38:30

you mentioned the play date a little bit

38:33

earlier Casey, like when Panic launched the play

38:35

date, they had like a whole year of

38:37

games that were like planned and scheduled every

38:39

week after it was launched, a new game

38:42

came out and they had all this

38:44

content lined up and all these deals with developers lined

38:46

up and so they knew

38:48

that yes, we're selling a brand new

38:50

hardware platform with no installed base

38:52

and no software library that will be there when

38:54

we get there, so we have to create that,

38:56

so they did, and that was a great strategy,

38:58

it worked very well. I

39:00

assumed that Apple was releasing it

39:03

when they were because

39:05

they had plans to give it

39:07

a real oomph kind of release, that

39:09

seems to not have been the case.

39:13

Apple doesn't have panic money, you know. How

39:18

many people does panic have? They're such a

39:20

big corporation, huge staff, incredibly well resourced, you

39:22

can't really expect Apple to compete with that.

39:26

Exactly, so that's what the Vision Pro

39:28

needs, like what it needs is reasons

39:31

for the people who are willing to

39:33

spend $3500, which again, that's not going

39:35

to be mass market for some time,

39:38

but there is a market for high

39:40

end luxury electronics, like those markets exist,

39:42

they're not massive, but they exist, Apple

39:44

has served them in other ways before,

39:47

there is a market there at the

39:49

current price, but even

39:51

at the current price, Apple's

39:53

not really addressing the

39:56

market in other non-price ways,

39:58

and if they launch... a

40:00

brand new hardware revision in six

40:03

months or a year instead of this rumor of 2026 or

40:05

whatever, if they launched one

40:07

earlier, that's not gonna change that. What's

40:09

holding it back right now is

40:12

mostly not the hardware. It's

40:15

the price which won't change for a long time

40:17

and the ecosystem and the software just kinda not,

40:20

what's the killer app? Where's the killer

40:22

content? That's what they need now. They

40:24

don't need more hardware releases. They need

40:26

apps and content. Well, they kinda need

40:28

both. I know one was more

40:31

important than the other, but the reason I

40:33

compared it to the HomePod is when people

40:35

don't see updates to a product year over

40:37

year, especially for three years in a row,

40:39

they start to wonder about the company's commitment

40:41

and that's really death for a new platform.

40:44

Even though new hardware, I

40:46

mean, it's not gonna be that different within a year or

40:49

two. Like, the technology's not advancing that quickly. But it

40:51

does show, oh, Apple's still committed to this. They've

40:53

made some, even if it's physical changes, we have

40:55

a little bit better ideas for straps now that

40:57

we've put these out in the field and we

40:59

have a little bit better idea about fit, right?

41:01

Even if it's exactly the same screen, still an

41:03

M2, just minor revisions

41:05

shows that the company is committed to the

41:07

product. No, that's not gonna move the market,

41:09

but it will make people feel a little

41:12

bit more comfortable, especially if you're a tech

41:14

gadget fan, that

41:17

Apple is committed to this. Obviously, content

41:19

also would do that to make you

41:21

know that Apple's committed to it. But if they just released

41:23

content and everyone was loving it, three years in, they'd be

41:26

like, okay, I love it so much, but they need to

41:28

release more of this and they need to make a cheaper

41:30

one because no one's gonna buy this because it's too expensive

41:32

and I think it's great, but there's two things. It

41:35

does need to get better. Like, at some point in

41:37

some number of years, there should be a technically better

41:39

version, but of course that will be equally expensive or

41:41

even more expensive. And then there also needs to be

41:43

a cheaper one. But right now it looks kind

41:46

of like the original HomePod in multiple ways in

41:48

that maybe they'll be sitting in warehouses unsold like

41:50

the big HomePods were. And then when Apple does

41:52

come out with a new one, it would be

41:54

like the HomePod mini, it would be like, you

41:56

know what? We just kind of decided that

41:58

people actually just need a cheaper one. Keeper worse one of these

42:00

like the home pod mini and we'll just stop making the

42:03

big one Oh, but we change our mind. We'll make the

42:05

big one again. And here's a better one. Like that's not

42:07

a good path For instilling

42:09

confidence and the home pod is not even a platform

42:12

That's not a platform. It's just a thing people

42:14

stick on their house This is a platform and

42:16

so you need people to believe in it need

42:18

developers to believe in it You need users to

42:20

believe in that you need to have it show

42:22

signs of life and one of the

42:24

ways you can show signs of life Is don't

42:26

wait three years between changing the hardware at

42:28

all I mean see also the Mac Pro

42:31

right and I mean I

42:34

think it's really It's

42:36

been extremely surprising for me Like you were

42:38

saying a moment ago Marco that there really

42:40

hasn't been much of a push for content

42:42

like since the launch What have we gotten

42:45

we've gotten the MLS thing

42:47

that everyone hated including me We've

42:49

gotten the dinosaur a second

42:52

dinosaurs episode and that's it

42:55

Right like yeah other than some

42:57

some bug fixes and mild improvements

42:59

to the OS and and some

43:01

legitimately pretty solid improvements to His

43:05

personas Oh in the addition of spatial personas

43:07

But even still like that's not that much

43:09

and you would think and I think the

43:11

playdate is a just perfect Case

43:13

study and how to do this, right? You would think

43:15

that they knew when this was going to come out

43:17

and they would have Cued up a

43:20

whole bunch of this content and it

43:22

seems like they just didn't Didn't have

43:24

Netflix and YouTube app. Well, right Well, I

43:26

mean talk about like a way to get

43:29

content for quote-unquote for free Like hey Netflix

43:31

content YouTube has got it had

43:33

to be third parties to like make these

43:35

own kind of a web kit enabled Screen-scraping

43:38

clients to try to do something useful out of

43:40

it. Yeah, it's just it's not been a

43:42

good Are we still I don't think we're still waiting on those

43:44

coming soon new environments, right? Oh, that's true Yeah, yeah, I forgot

43:46

about that. Are those gonna come out the end of 2026 to

43:48

yeah fair Netflix and YouTube Those

43:52

are third parties. There's lots of

43:54

reasons why that's kind of out of

43:56

apples control Some of which are their

43:58

fault, but it but That's not within

44:01

their control directly. They could have thrown more money

44:03

at it. They could have maybe.

44:05

But that's more of a corporate politics

44:07

thing. I get that's kind of

44:09

a bigger picture problem for them. But

44:11

there are things within Apple's power to

44:13

do that they seem to not have

44:15

done yet. So for instance, they do

44:18

have content studios. They could be

44:20

making more of this content. They could have made

44:22

it in advance. Certain deals they could make with

44:24

other content providers. Things like

44:26

the sports leagues. I'm sure those are

44:28

all in progress or in talks. But

44:31

you need something there now for people to use this

44:33

device with now. And then of

44:35

course other things that they could make

44:37

themselves directly. Things like the environments we were saying.

44:40

Or their own apps. Every

44:42

Apple app that shipped is an iPad app on

44:44

the Vision Pro. It's kind of

44:46

like nah. I know this comes up occasionally.

44:48

I want you to know out there, audience,

44:50

when we criticize Apple, we

44:53

get heat from you,

44:55

from other Apple fans. So we

44:57

don't criticize Apple unnecessarily

45:00

or cavalierly. This

45:02

is just like no matter how much

45:04

we all want the Vision Pro to

45:06

succeed because it is amazing technology. We

45:09

all are rooting for this. We were rooting for

45:11

this. We still are rooting for

45:13

this to succeed. We want this to succeed. But

45:17

it just looks like Apple is fumbling the ball

45:19

so badly. Sorry for the sports

45:21

analogy. I'm not good with sports. But it

45:23

just looks like they just were not prepared

45:25

to have actually launched this. And it

45:28

almost seems like we have

45:30

more faith in the product than large parts

45:32

of Apple do. And that's concerning. And

45:35

the problem is if they don't put a

45:37

bunch of wood behind that arrow, no

45:39

one's going to buy it and keep it and

45:41

keep using it. And the platform

45:43

will fail even though it's an amazing

45:46

piece of hardware. But if the outcome that we

45:48

want is for this product to

45:50

succeed, we should be bugging Apple from

45:52

the outside and be like, hey, you

45:54

know you've got to do something here, right? You know

45:57

this is not going to fix itself. Vision

46:00

Pro right now, over

46:02

time, this is not going to get better unless

46:04

changes are made. This isn't something that will work

46:06

itself out. It isn't like, oh, we're just right

46:08

around the corner from a bunch of apps being

46:10

made for it. I keep

46:12

seeing my Overcast usage graph go down

46:15

on the Vision Pro. It

46:17

is now about 120 people. That's

46:20

not good. What I

46:22

see is the slope going down, down, down,

46:24

down, down. That does not tell me that

46:26

I, as a developer, should invest in this

46:28

platform. What about content makers?

46:30

What about Netflix? What about YouTube? They're

46:33

seeing the same graphs, I'm sure, of whatever data

46:35

they have showing how many of their potential customers

46:37

might be using this thing. And

46:40

those graphs are also probably going

46:42

down from a pretty low number

46:44

to begin with. And so if you follow this

46:46

out, what's going to happen? How is this going to look six

46:48

months from now? How is this going to look a year from

46:50

now? If nothing

46:53

changes significantly, it's

46:55

going to look very bad. It's going to be

46:57

just a continuation of this downward slope with almost

46:59

no one left using it. Something

47:01

has to change in order to make that go

47:04

up, and it's not going to come from the

47:06

outside because the outside parties have no reason to

47:08

do it. So it has to come from Apple.

47:10

Apple has to be the one to make that

47:12

change. Another potentially helpful analogy

47:15

is Apple TV. For long time, Apple

47:17

fans remember what the Apple TV was

47:19

when it was introduced as ITV. It

47:21

was a Mac running a modified version of Tiger, a

47:24

Mac OS 10 10.4, and had a hard drive. And

47:29

it was very different from what you see today.

47:31

But it was essentially a similar

47:33

product, similar job. An Apple-connected thing

47:36

that you connect to your

47:38

television and it helps you watch TV. And

47:40

it took a while for that platform to

47:42

find whatever legs it has. There was a

47:44

long time where Apple itself would refer to

47:47

it as a hobby project to undercut it

47:49

and tamp down expectations. That is not how

47:51

the Vision Pro was launched, to say the

47:53

least, as a hobby product. But

47:55

they had to figure out, what should this be a Mac? Should

48:00

it run Mac OS 10? Should

48:02

it have a hard drive? Like what is the right

48:04

role for this product? Kind of like the

48:06

HomePod, you know, what is the right shape of this product?

48:08

Are we barking up the wrong tree? And

48:11

the change from the original Apple TV

48:13

slash ITV to the current one is

48:16

big, but it shows that if the company

48:18

is patient and is willing to plug away

48:20

at it, yeah,

48:22

Apple TV took how many years to see

48:25

any kind of success to even be good? But

48:27

Apple didn't give up on it. They just

48:30

rethought, regroup, tried a couple times, made a

48:32

couple really bad remotes. It still has

48:34

a lot of problems, but it is better than it

48:36

was. If you don't give up,

48:39

and you're willing to keep putting money into

48:41

it, and you do actually do occasional updates,

48:44

you can make progress. But

48:46

again, Apple TV as a platform, I think, is

48:49

not where Apple wants Vision Pro

48:51

to be as a platform, and Apple TV

48:53

was not launched for the same fanfare as

48:55

Vision Pro. So there is definitely a

48:57

mismatch between what Apple is saying

48:59

about the Vision Pro and how much it costs,

49:01

and how they launched it, and the

49:03

actual reality of the product is a lot

49:05

more like that original Apple TV or the

49:08

big HomePod. But the launch

49:10

is like it's the iPhone, and it's not. Alright,

49:13

it is time for the 2018 to 2022 iPad

49:18

Pro Exit interview. And

49:21

I don't know, Marco, this is kind of your

49:23

baby. Do you have any opening statement? Do

49:25

you want to start? Yeah,

49:28

so whenever we think that a new

49:30

product or more recently OS

49:32

version is about to be unveiled, like

49:35

we'll do one right before WWDC for iOS 17, et cetera, I

49:39

started doing this a few years ago on this show

49:41

here doing these exit interviews, because

49:44

of course I have lots of experience with

49:46

corporate America and managing

49:48

people, and so I

49:50

know how to conduct such things, obviously. The

49:53

iPad Pro is probably about to be replaced

49:55

before or right on our next show. The

49:58

current iPad Pro technically... came out in

50:00

2022 but it really has not been

50:08

a major revision in 2018. That was

50:10

when the 11 inch was released, when

50:12

they got the flat side, the magnetic

50:14

pencil, face ID. That was a major

50:16

revision. It was a great revision. There

50:19

are some, you know, I've had some nitpicks with

50:21

it over time but overall I think it's really

50:23

been a fantastic product and kind of

50:25

going into the what is most likely to be the

50:27

update I think my

50:30

opinions of the outgoing one frame

50:32

what I want out of the update and

50:34

what I hope Apple has addressed with it.

50:37

Even when I very first got

50:39

the other iPad Pro in 2018,

50:42

number one thing I wanted was move

50:44

the face ID sensor to

50:47

either the corner or the long

50:49

edge so that way you can use

50:51

it in landscape mode which is how I almost always

50:53

use it usually with a keyboard and not have your

50:55

hand cover the face ID sensor when you pick it

50:57

up. Something like that

50:59

is rumored. It has been rumored for a while.

51:01

One of the more recent iPad base models actually

51:03

did that. They actually moved the face ID camera

51:06

to the top. I would

51:08

love to see like some basic improvements

51:10

just like things we learned along the way

51:12

and for me the major theme for things

51:14

we learned along the way since 2018 is

51:17

I think way more people now than

51:19

back then really use

51:21

the iPad configured physically like a laptop.

51:25

There is some kind of keyboard whether

51:27

it's one of Apple's many options for

51:29

keyboards for the iPad or

51:31

whether it's a third party keyboard case or whatever. I

51:34

really never use an iPad

51:36

regularly until the Apple keyboard

51:38

covers because they were just so good. But

51:42

the iPad, it was never seemingly designed

51:44

to be used in landscape orientation and it does it

51:47

but again like the face ID and the camera were

51:49

in the wrong spot for it. The

51:52

volume buttons and everything like everything on it is clearly

51:54

in the wrong spot when you turn it on its

51:56

side for landscape orientation. So I would like to. see

52:00

an iPad Pro. You

52:02

know, whatever they choose to do with the

52:04

other ones, whatever, that's up to them. But

52:06

the iPad Pro I think is maybe more

52:08

likely than the others to be used with

52:10

a keyboard, the Apple Pencil, or

52:13

both. I would like to see

52:15

the new iPad Pro be

52:18

actually designed to

52:20

be better used with optionally

52:23

a keyboard and pencil. I

52:25

want the keyboard to

52:28

be able to physically attach in

52:30

a better way than just having a

52:32

giant face full of magnets that forms

52:34

an entire back cover that sticks to

52:37

the back of it. And

52:39

it turns out we have better ways.

52:42

They're called holes. I

52:46

want the iPad Pro to

52:49

add holes or slot

52:52

or some kind of physical, like

52:54

clip kind of thing, something that

52:56

the keyboard can clip into so

52:59

that way a keyboard could literally just

53:01

be the flat bottom

53:03

part of what we see now as

53:06

the keyboard cases and not have a

53:08

back case. And this can

53:10

be accomplished in a very nice graceful way

53:12

if Apple chooses to do it. I'm not

53:14

talking about massive, like a big slot like

53:16

a Palm Pilot, although that would be nice

53:18

for the pencil, but we'll get to that

53:20

in a second. But I'm not talking about

53:23

some kind of giant slot that runs the

53:25

whole into the thing. This could be like

53:27

roughly the

53:29

size of the millimeter wave window on

53:31

an iPhone, on the side of the

53:33

iPhones, the recent ones, a little oval

53:36

inset into it with

53:38

some latch mechanism inside that a

53:40

keyboard could be designed to latch

53:43

into. That's what I want.

53:46

Attaching things with magnets is great. It is great

53:48

when you have no other options, when it is

53:50

the best option. It isn't always the

53:52

best option. It is especially not always the best

53:54

option with the Apple Pencil. And this is what I like

53:56

to do now, I guess. The

53:58

Apple Pencil always falls off the iPad Pro.

54:01

When you bring it in and out of

54:03

any bag ever, the pencil will fall off.

54:06

Many pencils have been lost or have fallen

54:08

into bags or airline seat gaps or whatever

54:10

from this reason. I would love to

54:12

see some consideration for

54:14

the physical form of

54:16

the iPad Pro to better

54:19

attach physically pencils

54:21

and keyboards. I

54:23

don't think this is going to happen, frankly. I think

54:25

this is even less likely than the M4 rumor. I

54:27

think this is very, very unlikely to

54:29

be the design. But

54:32

that's what ultimately I want. Again,

54:34

it could just be as simple as a

54:37

couple of oval cutouts that something could poke

54:39

into with strong metal and maybe have a

54:41

little expanding latch part that expands out and

54:43

latches it in or something like that. It

54:45

could be that simple. What

54:48

that would allow is, first

54:50

of all, way more graceful attachment

54:53

of keyboards, way more

54:55

secure attachment of pencils, and

54:59

the keyboard could

55:01

then be like half the weight. It

55:03

could be way smaller, way lighter,

55:05

way mechanically simpler, which

55:07

maybe could allow them to lower

55:09

the obscene prices of those smart

55:12

keyboards. Then the resulting package would

55:14

be much more size

55:16

and weight competitive with similarly sized

55:18

laptops. Because right now, it's

55:20

really not. It gets pretty bulky. I would love

55:23

so much for them to fix this problem. Just

55:25

put some kind of physical notch

55:28

or something into the iPad

55:30

body. I feel

55:32

like the Johnny Ive school

55:34

of design is, let's make

55:37

everything a smooth, featureless blob

55:40

that we can show it floating in

55:42

space in a white room in a

55:44

product video, and it just

55:46

looks like a perfect uninterrupted form. That

55:49

is not super compatible with many

55:51

realities. In reality,

55:53

then, we have to wrap

55:56

things around it or bolt

55:58

things to it with magnets. or have

56:00

cables coming out in weird ways, that's

56:03

the reality. I would love for the

56:05

products to be more designed to

56:07

accommodate the reality of what

56:09

they actually need, how they're actually used. That

56:11

way, the way most people actually end up

56:13

using them can be more graceful and can

56:15

work better. So that's what

56:18

I want. I don't think I'm going to get it. But

56:20

I want that more than I want any other

56:23

predicted feature. That's more important to

56:25

me than the M4

56:27

or the M3 or AI. It's

56:29

more important to me than OLED

56:31

screens even. That's

56:34

what I really want, is for them to

56:36

finally make the iPad Pro designed

56:39

to accommodate actually

56:41

using it more like a laptop. And

56:44

it won't happen probably. I don't

56:46

think you just want a touchscreen laptop running iPadOS.

56:48

Yeah. You can just cut to the chase. It

56:51

would still be convertible. It would still be more easily convertible. You

56:53

just pop it right out. Yeah.

56:55

The holes idea is

56:58

interesting, but I don't think it actually solves the

57:00

main problem, which is the weight distribution, because all

57:02

of the computing guts are in the quote-unquote screen

57:04

part. You can't actually just do a laptop, so

57:06

you don't have to have a cantilever nap area

57:09

in the back, which makes it clumsy. I know

57:11

what you're saying about instead of having the magnets

57:13

in the back have an attachment point, that saves you

57:15

some weight there. But most people want to protect their

57:18

pack of iPads anyway. So I don't

57:20

know. I think it doesn't really sketch this out

57:22

to try to come up with something that actually

57:24

is both lighter weight and sturdier with the addition

57:26

of holes. But it's a tough sell, and I

57:29

don't think they're going to go in that direction. But

57:32

for just my brief thing in the exit interview for

57:34

the current one, I

57:37

think that it was a really important design

57:39

in the evolution of the iPad. In particular,

57:41

the flat-sided pencil that sticks to it, even

57:43

though, yes, it does come off, but

57:46

it's better than the previous pencil, which didn't stick

57:48

to it at all. Way better. So it was

57:50

a big important step, and I think basically it

57:52

only stayed around for like one

57:54

generation too long. Like the

57:56

last time when it didn't get revised and just got new

57:58

guts on the inside, and when the... the iPad

58:00

10th gen or whatever got the landscape

58:02

camera and everything. It was so clear.

58:05

It was like, ooh, yeah, this year.

58:07

It's kind of a shame the iPad Pro, but that's

58:09

just one year right there still and they and they still

58:11

updated. They still did update the guts. I think

58:14

this revision is not going

58:16

to be as radical as you want to be, but I

58:18

think it is going to have some things for you. I

58:20

think we can Casey, do you have any iPad Pro exit

58:22

interview stuff before we dive into the announcement? Oh,

58:25

a little bit. You know, I

58:27

had bought a 2018 iPad

58:29

Pro, loved it. That's now been pushed

58:31

down the hierarchy to be the kids

58:34

iPad, predominantly Michaela at this point, but

58:36

you know, definitely use it from time

58:38

to time. And I bought the 2022,

58:40

the whatever the M2 one

58:44

was 2022, right? M2 iPad Pro

58:46

to replace it both 11 inches. And I

58:48

love that one. And I

58:51

absolutely adore that as in

58:53

around the house computer as

58:55

an in the car as a passenger

58:57

computer, things of that nature. You

59:00

know, one thing that the iPad has up on

59:02

the Mac and at the rate we're going will

59:04

always have up on the Mac is Marco cellular.

59:07

I was gonna say windshield shattering. Yeah,

59:09

it's also the windshield shattering. Yes, that's

59:11

true. Let me remind you,

59:13

Apple, I will pay you infinite dollars to

59:16

give me a cellular Mac Pro, please, for

59:18

the love of God. I will give you

59:20

all of my money. But anyway, no,

59:23

I, I really like my

59:26

iPad in very limited use

59:29

cases. But those use cases, it is freaking perfect

59:31

for it. I don't particularly

59:33

disagree with anything Marco was saying with

59:35

regard to like cases and things like

59:37

that. I use the cantilevered. What is

59:39

it? Magic keyboard? Is that right? I

59:41

always get them backwards. Yeah, the magic

59:43

is the more expensive cantilevered one. The

59:45

art keyboard cover is the one

59:48

that I use and Craig Federica uses that

59:50

is just it's used to be the only one it

59:52

was like there's no trackpad and it's like a little

59:55

bit shorter up front. Yeah, and so I I do

59:58

have one of those that's what's on Michaela's iPad now use

1:00:00

that until the cantilevered one, the magic one came

1:00:02

out. And I do

1:00:04

think, and I think you had said this Marco,

1:00:07

I started using iPad way more when I had

1:00:09

a real keyboard on it because then to me

1:00:12

anyway, it becomes completely hamstrung

1:00:14

for creation purposes to occasionally

1:00:17

annoying which is a big

1:00:19

improvement actually. And so

1:00:22

anyways, so I really like both of the iPads

1:00:24

that are in the house. The biggest

1:00:26

issue I would say I have with the 2022 iPad is that it's

1:00:29

not really that much better than the 2018. Like

1:00:32

it's noticeably better but not night and day better

1:00:34

even though, you know, four years had elapsed. And

1:00:36

I think the only thing that I seek now we're

1:00:39

leaving the exit interview part, sorry John, but the only

1:00:41

thing I really seek from a new one, well first

1:00:43

of all I don't, sitting here now I don't plan

1:00:45

to buy one, remind me of this in a week,

1:00:47

but the only thing I really

1:00:49

seek is I would love to have the FaceTime, the

1:00:51

front facing camera on the longer

1:00:54

edge. But like the pencil, yeah, that falls off all

1:00:56

the time but at least it can connect, that doesn't

1:00:58

really bother me. The cantilever

1:01:00

keyboard is heavy but it's, you know, I

1:01:02

love that thing, I think it's worth

1:01:06

the weight, it's worth the cost. Although I

1:01:09

will say mine is not

1:01:11

aging super gracefully. I feel like we just talked

1:01:13

about this a few weeks back but the corner,

1:01:15

one of the corners of mine is looking real

1:01:17

gross and like the outer shell,

1:01:19

like the kind of rubbery outer shell is falling

1:01:21

away. There's definitely some other

1:01:24

spots that have like nicks and whatnot

1:01:26

that it's not aged extraordinarily

1:01:28

gracefully. So maybe a little

1:01:31

bit better keyboard, oh and actually come to think of

1:01:33

it now that I'm wish casting,

1:01:35

bigger trackpad which is a common refrain, you

1:01:37

know, I think Jason and Mike talked about

1:01:39

this, the Connected boys talked about this, bigger trackpad

1:01:41

and for the love of all that it's good

1:01:43

and holy, an escape key and function row please

1:01:45

and thank you. I would love that on

1:01:48

a future keyboard. But in

1:01:50

the grand scheme of things, the hardware

1:01:52

itself, like it's fine, it's quick, it's

1:01:54

got cellular, you know, I

1:01:56

don't have any strong needs for the,

1:01:58

for the the Apple pencil, I do

1:02:01

have one. And when I use it, I really,

1:02:03

really like it. But I'm not an artist. I

1:02:05

use it more for like, you know, annotating things

1:02:07

than anything else. So I don't know, I don't

1:02:09

even know what I'm seeking right now. This is

1:02:11

one of those moments where Apple needs to tell

1:02:13

me what it is I have missed all of

1:02:15

my life because I don't know what it is

1:02:17

right now. I mean, what we're not talking about,

1:02:19

which is we have no reason to talk about

1:02:21

it until the VWC is the OS, which, as

1:02:24

we always say is the main thing that's holding back, but we're

1:02:26

not getting a new OS for the iPad on May 7. That'll

1:02:29

wait till WWC. So we have

1:02:31

to set that aside. We're just talking about

1:02:33

the hardware. But honestly, part of the one

1:02:35

big part of the problem with the iPad

1:02:37

is that the OS has never lived up

1:02:39

to the hardware. The hardware is essentially laptop.

1:02:41

It's an Apple laptop without the keyboard running

1:02:43

a slightly different OS. But the OS does

1:02:45

not allow that power to be exploited. And

1:02:47

it's a shame. But you know, that's not

1:02:49

that's not going to change on May 7.

1:02:52

So the event, the event

1:02:54

didn't come out and say this is

1:02:56

an iPad event, but it did have what

1:02:58

it had. It had a bunch of different images. I

1:03:01

got the one that had someone holding an

1:03:03

Apple pencil. Yeah, which may be the first

1:03:05

time that Apple literally put the product they're

1:03:07

going to announce in the image. Right. Because

1:03:10

it's so clearly an Apple pencil. It's not

1:03:12

it's not like a regular pencil. It's an

1:03:14

Apple pencil. But there

1:03:16

are apparently six possible images that you can get.

1:03:18

And they're all kind of abstract like they were

1:03:20

drawn with the pencil or whatever. And then Tim

1:03:22

Cook tweeted pencil us in for May 7. And

1:03:25

then did a little pencil emoji. Gone

1:03:28

are the days of subtlety. You

1:03:30

know, like the AI announcement for WDC. But anyway,

1:03:32

you would think that they're going to have an

1:03:34

event on May 7, where they're going to announce

1:03:36

an Apple pencil. And that's it. I think there

1:03:38

will be other things. But just FYI,

1:03:40

there's going to be an Apple pencil. So

1:03:43

that's great. But the actual

1:03:45

iPad, as I said earlier

1:03:47

in the year, I think is the hardware product I'm

1:03:50

most excited for this year. Because

1:03:52

I'm definitely going to get one that

1:03:54

the rumors are true and it has an OLED screen because

1:03:56

I use my iPad as a little

1:03:58

tiny television. OLED is

1:04:00

better for TVs. The black levels on the

1:04:02

current 11 inch iPad Pro

1:04:05

are very bad And OLED

1:04:07

won't have that problem and so I'm excited

1:04:09

for it and honestly from a hardware perspective

1:04:12

It's basically a big screen So

1:04:14

any improvement to the screen is significant and

1:04:16

from what the rumors say This

1:04:19

is a very significant upgrade to the

1:04:21

screen so significant that I think this

1:04:23

will be the best screen that

1:04:25

Apple sells period The

1:04:29

vision Pro is having some thoughts right? I right

1:04:31

so there's the question of whether those are screens,

1:04:33

but I guess but even but even within that

1:04:35

realm I think this one will have better

1:04:37

color reproduction and brightness than the vision Pro one

1:04:40

So maybe not as high resolution of a better

1:04:42

color reproduction and brightness and also you don't have

1:04:44

to strap it to your head All right But

1:04:46

just for traditional screens setting aside things that are

1:04:48

inside goggles for traditional screens This I think this

1:04:51

is gonna be everything that they sell if the

1:04:53

rumors are true. It's supposedly a dual

1:04:55

stacked OLED So the problem with OLEDs is you

1:04:57

can't make them too bright over this They wear

1:04:59

themselves out and use a lot of power So

1:05:02

instead they take two OLEDs and put them on

1:05:04

top of each other and run each one slightly

1:05:06

lower power So each individual OLED doesn't wear itself

1:05:08

out as fast But the total light throughput you

1:05:10

get is I don't know if it's double

1:05:12

but it's more right So

1:05:14

that is fascinating and if it

1:05:17

is a really good screen as the rumors suggest I'm

1:05:19

gonna love it because this is my little miniature TV So

1:05:24

I know that's not exciting to most people except for

1:05:26

maybe color reproduction for people who are trying to do

1:05:28

like professional photo or video work on

1:05:30

it or whatever and although good luck with that but

1:05:34

but but for this particular case and honestly, I

1:05:37

think this is a Common

1:05:39

use case people watching video on their

1:05:42

iPads Whether or not

1:05:44

they have a keyboard attached I think that's

1:05:46

that's probably more narrow interest for people who

1:05:48

want to use it for productivity But people

1:05:51

watching video is common and that's another Reason

1:05:54

that the landscape camera is important because people

1:05:56

are watching video. I would imagine mostly in

1:05:58

landscape. I don't think people are blowing up

1:06:00

the TikTok app to 2x and watching everything

1:06:02

vertically on it. So

1:06:04

the landscape camera helps with the people who use it

1:06:06

as a mini TV. I cover that stupid camera with

1:06:08

my hand all the time. It's annoying. And

1:06:11

the screen. It's basically a big screen and

1:06:13

it'll be an amazing screen. And then the

1:06:15

other thing about the guts, which is fascinating,

1:06:17

but less so for what

1:06:20

it says about the iPad and more so for what it

1:06:22

says about all their other products is the M4 rumor. You

1:06:24

would think this is going to be an iPad Pro with an M3 in it.

1:06:26

That would make perfect sense.

1:06:29

The MacBook Air just came out with the M3.

1:06:31

M3 has been out for a while. Put it

1:06:33

in an iPad. Sure. But the rumor is, oh,

1:06:36

but it might be an M4. And it's like,

1:06:38

okay, well, maybe I will say, but that rumor

1:06:40

has heated up recently with actual evidence. There's

1:06:43

two sets of evidence. I meant to grab this one from a

1:06:45

screenshot. One of them was the

1:06:48

part number for the CPU and Apple

1:06:51

has these weird internal part numbers like

1:06:53

the M2 was T8112 and the M3

1:06:55

was T8122. So the third number or

1:06:58

the fourth digit, fourth character is

1:07:05

changing. So T8112. You would expect that

1:07:07

the M3 is T8122. But the rumor, the

1:07:09

people trying

1:07:17

to find things in the OS or whatever says that

1:07:19

this new upcoming iPad is T813. I

1:07:24

know it's confusing because one is the M2 and two is the

1:07:26

M3. It's made on the A16

1:07:28

process for the 11 inch iPad for Mac, iPad OS,

1:07:30

and 17. The

1:07:33

part number, if they follow the same pattern,

1:07:35

the part number says it's an M4. And

1:07:38

the other thing is that the product number,

1:07:40

this sort of internal product number that Apple

1:07:42

has for its devices, and

1:07:44

it's always like a name of a product,

1:07:46

a number, comma, another number. And

1:07:50

the rumored part number is again pulled out

1:07:52

of iPad OS 7.5. Beta is iPad 16, comma, 3,

1:07:56

16, comma, 4, 16, comma, 5, and 16, comma, 6. Right?

1:08:00

So the iPad Air 5

1:08:03

and the iPad Proven 2020 were labeled

1:08:06

iPad 13, something, and they have the

1:08:08

M1. And all the iPads that

1:08:10

have the M2 are labeled iPad 14. So

1:08:12

M1 is 13, M2 is 14, and 3 would be 15. Oh,

1:08:17

so they skipped one? But this is iPad

1:08:19

16. So they're skipping

1:08:21

iPad 15, which would have been the M3 model.

1:08:23

And that leads more evidence to this being the

1:08:26

M4. So all

1:08:28

of the internal software dredged

1:08:31

out part numbers and product

1:08:33

numbers lead to the

1:08:35

conclusion that the iPad Pro have an M4

1:08:37

in it and not an M3. I

1:08:40

find this so hard to believe. And if it wasn't for

1:08:42

this like 16 comma, whatever, whatever, I

1:08:45

think I would say absolutely not. But this

1:08:47

whole part number thing or model

1:08:49

number thing is really giving me pause. And

1:08:51

the part number thing, because the part number

1:08:54

is even more obscure. Those like T8, whatever,

1:08:56

like that's super obscure. Like what there'd be

1:08:58

no reason to like fake that or skip

1:09:00

a number. And that that's really even farther,

1:09:03

you know, to dig that out. But

1:09:05

yeah, it's consistent. They they skipped over

1:09:08

the M3 thing and this looks like

1:09:10

it's going to have an M4 in

1:09:12

it. And I find it perfectly plausible

1:09:14

because we know that every M3, whatever

1:09:17

chip that Apple has made has

1:09:19

been on the M3B process, which is

1:09:21

super expensive and essentially

1:09:23

Apple exclusive. And Apple kind of

1:09:26

had to do it if they wanted to get their products

1:09:28

out the door. Right. But they don't

1:09:30

want to stick with it for any longer

1:09:32

than they have to. And so if TSMC

1:09:34

can make M4s in

1:09:36

time to be in the iPad

1:09:39

Pro, you bet Apple

1:09:41

would love to not have to pay

1:09:43

to make another super expensive M3B based

1:09:45

product. And I think it

1:09:47

is plausible that you can announce something

1:09:50

on May 7th with an M14. I'm

1:09:53

not sure when it will ship, but, you

1:09:55

know, TSMC doesn't always publicly say when they're

1:09:57

doing all, you know, I think it is.

1:10:00

I think it's plausible based on the part numbers. I think it's

1:10:02

plausible based on the timing. But

1:10:04

it's super interesting because that

1:10:07

would mean that the M4 – all the rumors

1:10:09

about the M4 lineup and how by the end

1:10:11

of next year, every single Mac will be on

1:10:13

something on the M4. That

1:10:15

gets a lot more likely

1:10:17

to happen if they're starting with

1:10:20

the M4s in May, not even

1:10:22

WWDC. What that means also is that

1:10:24

for WWDC, if they release an M4 iPad, I don't care

1:10:26

about the M4. Who cares? I

1:10:28

don't care about it in the iPad. But

1:10:32

what that means is, come

1:10:34

WWDC, if they announce any

1:10:36

Mac hardware, doesn't that

1:10:38

also have to have the

1:10:40

M4? Or maybe not. Maybe they just announced the

1:10:42

M3 Ultra. I just – this

1:10:45

overlap on these numbers is killing me. I

1:10:47

just really wish they would get on schedule

1:10:49

and just make the number go up by one every

1:10:51

once in a while. I

1:10:54

will be unrealistically expecting M4-based Macs

1:10:56

in WWDC if they release an

1:10:58

M4-based iPad Pro. But I

1:11:01

think the M4-based iPad Pro is plausible. And

1:11:03

so, honestly, now I expect it. Gurman's

1:11:05

traffic record has been pretty good about this

1:11:08

kind of stuff recently, and he's pretty sure

1:11:10

about it from his sourcing. So it's looking

1:11:12

like this is a real possibility. And

1:11:16

to some degree, we don't know how

1:11:19

big of an update the M4 is compared to

1:11:21

the M3. And John

1:11:23

mentioned, like, there is this process

1:11:25

switch thing, you know, with M3B,

1:11:28

as we discussed, was kind of a

1:11:31

dead end with TSMC's processing. It was

1:11:33

a very expensive process, and that's what

1:11:35

the M3 and all of last

1:11:37

fall's phone chips were made on. Probably

1:11:40

– if I had to guess, if the M4 is

1:11:42

ready this soon after the M3,

1:11:44

my guess is

1:11:46

the M4 was largely a change

1:11:49

to get off that process and

1:11:51

to be on the new, you know, M3, whatever

1:11:53

the – what's the new one? N3P? M3E.

1:11:57

And keep in mind, M3E is essentially – it's

1:11:59

– worse in terms of the product you

1:12:01

get, but it's better in terms of yield

1:12:03

and cost. So M3B is like the super

1:12:06

expensive, but it actually is slightly better, but

1:12:08

like no one wants to pay for it

1:12:10

and the yields are terrible, right? So Apple

1:12:12

wants to get off of that. Everyone wants

1:12:14

to get off of it as soon as

1:12:16

possible, but not because M3E is fantastically better.

1:12:18

Like it is the same or even potentially

1:12:20

slightly worse, but cheaper, better yields.

1:12:22

And so that makes sense. And I

1:12:24

think the M4 advances

1:12:27

over the M3. I assume like whatever they do with

1:12:29

the neural engine or if they rebrand

1:12:31

it or whatever AI, Mumbo, Jumbo like that could

1:12:33

possibly be in there. But I

1:12:36

mean, I don't think it's just a warmed

1:12:38

over M3 because the thing about M3E is

1:12:40

it's not whatever the term is.

1:12:43

It's not compatible with the designs they did for

1:12:45

M3B. So you have to essentially relay out the

1:12:47

chip. So I think it will be more

1:12:50

of its own device than we might imagine, because it's

1:12:52

not like they can just take the exact layout of

1:12:54

the M3 and stamp it in M3E. They

1:12:56

can't do that. That's the whole deal with M3B.

1:12:59

So if this is the start of the M4s

1:13:01

and there are

1:13:04

no more M3s, it would mean the M3s were like, we

1:13:06

had to get something out the door. We used the most

1:13:08

expensive process that no one else wanted to pay for, and

1:13:10

we did a whole bunch of chips all at once and

1:13:12

we got off it as fast as we can. But

1:13:15

if on the other hand, WGWC comes and they've

1:13:17

introduced an M4 iPad Pro and they say, and

1:13:19

now here's the new M3 Ultra

1:13:21

Max Studio, we'd be like, what are you doing,

1:13:23

Apple? What is

1:13:26

going on?

1:13:28

How expensive would an

1:13:30

M3B-based M3 Ultra chip

1:13:33

be? And I mean, it'll

1:13:35

be faster than playing M4, that's for sure,

1:13:37

but it's just so weird. And

1:13:40

it's so strange to be launching this on the iPad because

1:13:43

who has an iPad who's like, boy,

1:13:46

this needs an M4. Like, no

1:13:48

one's thinking that. They're thinking it needs a better OS,

1:13:50

it needs a better keyboard to Marco's point. Maybe they

1:13:52

want more pencil features, which we'll get to in a

1:13:54

little bit. Well, I have

1:13:56

some theories. If you look at the rumors

1:13:59

overall between... between last fall

1:14:01

and now about things like the

1:14:03

process node switch, how N3B is

1:14:05

so expensive and it's kind of

1:14:07

a dead end. I'm

1:14:10

guessing and we were seeing this all last fall.

1:14:12

As you were saying, Apple wants to get off of that

1:14:15

process quickly, that the M3 and the A,

1:14:17

whatever were on for the phones, that this,

1:14:20

like there's a reason why this year only the

1:14:23

Pro phones got the

1:14:25

new A chip with the 3nm process

1:14:27

on N3B and the other phones didn't.

1:14:30

And then keep in mind, we've already

1:14:32

for months heard the rumors that this

1:14:34

coming falls iPhones are both going to

1:14:36

get a new chip. So it's

1:14:38

not going to continue that lag of like the

1:14:41

cheaper phone has last year's chip. That's

1:14:43

been the rumor for months, that that's

1:14:45

not happening this year, which means that

1:14:48

the iPhone chips that were made this past

1:14:50

fall are one offs because Apple does not

1:14:52

keep making the Pro phones for the next

1:14:55

year. So, whatever

1:14:57

A we're on now is a one

1:14:59

off chip it seems. It's not going to go to

1:15:01

next year's cheaper phone. When Apple starts

1:15:03

making the iPhone 15 Pros this September, that

1:15:06

chip is gone. It's not in anything else. That's

1:15:09

one of the chips out of the way. Then we

1:15:11

have the M3 generation. Well, it

1:15:13

sure looks like, we've heard rumors so far

1:15:15

and it sure looks like just based on

1:15:17

timing, that there might not be an M3

1:15:19

based Mac Studio. This fall, what's going to

1:15:21

be left with the M3B process chips, which

1:15:23

are the M3, M3 Pro, M3

1:15:25

Macs and A whatever is on the phone? It's

1:15:27

just I think, just going to be then

1:15:30

the MacBook Air and the MacBook Pro.

1:15:33

And those both get updated pretty much every

1:15:36

year to every chip that comes out for

1:15:38

them. Oh, on the iMac, iMac, iMac. And

1:15:40

the iMac. Oh yeah, that's okay, that's interesting.

1:15:42

But anyway, so the iPad

1:15:44

Pro gets updated less frequently.

1:15:46

And so maybe what they're looking to

1:15:49

do here is jump

1:15:51

the iPad Pro forward first because then they

1:15:53

can keep making that for the next two

1:15:55

years, not touch it and not have any

1:15:58

chips left on the, on the iPhone. expensive

1:16:00

N3B process. So my guess is they

1:16:02

were okay using N3B for the really

1:16:07

important high-end products that need a 3

1:16:09

nanometer to get ahead, stay competitive, and

1:16:11

that's the iPhone Pro, the MacBook Pro,

1:16:13

and the MacBook Air, but then

1:16:16

they're going to move off of that as quickly

1:16:18

as they can. And the products that

1:16:20

have longer refresh cycles are kind of

1:16:23

less important like the Mac

1:16:25

Mini, the Mac Studio, and

1:16:27

the iPad Pro. Maybe

1:16:29

they don't get it. And the iMac unfortunately. The

1:16:31

iMac's the one weird one, but maybe

1:16:34

they'll just update that with the MacBook Air. Yeah,

1:16:36

they skipped with the iMac, so it was overdue.

1:16:38

I think the iMac will move to M4 quickly.

1:16:40

I don't think the M3 iMac is going to

1:16:42

be around for four years. I think they're going

1:16:45

to move that to the M4

1:16:47

quicker than we think, but we'll see. Yeah, and

1:16:49

based on that, if we

1:16:51

go with the theory that the M4 is something that

1:16:54

Apple is trying to get out there as quickly as

1:16:56

possible to minimize the amount of time they need to

1:16:58

keep making M3 chip products, then

1:17:01

it does make sense to put it in

1:17:03

the iPad Pro now. I would also then

1:17:06

simultaneously not have massive expectations for the M4

1:17:08

over the M3 because the

1:17:10

M3 was already a big jump over

1:17:12

the M2, and it's only been out

1:17:14

for like two seconds. Everything we're hearing

1:17:16

about like the M4 having a significant

1:17:18

focus in AI, I'm guessing that's

1:17:20

probably going to be mostly a marketing focus, which

1:17:23

is fine. Apple should be leading into this. Everyone

1:17:25

else is, and they look like they're behind, so

1:17:27

they should be leading into AI as a marketing thing.

1:17:30

Their chips already are good at many

1:17:32

AI-related tasks. They're already good at running inference.

1:17:34

They're already good at training. They already

1:17:37

have good GPUs, good neural engines, lots of

1:17:39

fast memories. They're already good at all that

1:17:41

stuff, so for them to say the

1:17:43

M4 is great for AI, yeah,

1:17:46

because all of their chips are pretty

1:17:48

good relative to other consumer product chips,

1:17:50

so they can still say all that

1:17:53

while the M4 doesn't necessarily need to

1:17:55

be a major jump forward. So I

1:17:57

think we're going to see every... everything

1:18:00

move to the M4 as quickly as possible,

1:18:02

possibly even all in this calendar year. We'll

1:18:04

see. Well, the problem is

1:18:06

the rumors for the good beefy M4 chips for

1:18:08

the studio and Mac Pro are well out into

1:18:11

next year. And so that really puts cold water

1:18:13

on my idea that there's going to be a

1:18:15

Mac Studio announcement at WWDC with the M4. And

1:18:17

it's... Yeah.

1:18:20

But I mean, obviously, Apple

1:18:23

wants... It's not a question

1:18:25

of deciding to do this. They need the M4 to

1:18:27

be available. If the M4 wasn't available, they wouldn't do

1:18:29

this. But if it is available, yes, they're jumping on

1:18:31

it ASAP. And that's why I think it'll also update

1:18:33

the iMac. Because as soon as the M4 is available

1:18:35

with a reasonable upgrade cycle, they're going to be like,

1:18:37

we got to get, to your point, get everything off

1:18:40

of N3B. Any products we sell with N3Bs

1:18:42

in them, they're not going to get

1:18:44

any cheaper. No one else is using that process. TSMC

1:18:46

is probably going to stop making it as soon as

1:18:48

we're done buying it from them. So let's get off

1:18:50

of it. And so any product that was on it,

1:18:52

we need to get it off within

1:18:54

the next calendar year. And

1:18:57

this being the first product is like, well, we're making

1:18:59

a new iPad and this is available. So by all

1:19:01

means, let's not put the M3 in it. And yeah,

1:19:03

then it gives them more runway to let this... I'm

1:19:05

going to let this language, but it's not going to

1:19:07

language. Like again, the computing power is not the

1:19:09

thing that is holding this back. And this will

1:19:11

be presumably the new design with the new pencil

1:19:14

and the new camera orientation and no holes

1:19:16

in the bottom. Sorry, Marko. Although

1:19:19

I guess we'll do

1:19:21

the pencil next. The rumor of this pencil is

1:19:23

it's the Apple Pencil 3. The Apple

1:19:25

did just come out with a new pencil,

1:19:27

but that one wasn't like the good pencil.

1:19:29

The top end, one of the most expensive

1:19:31

pencil. This is the new most

1:19:33

expensive pencil. And how can you tell? A,

1:19:36

it'll be more expensive and B, it has

1:19:38

new features and the rumored features are a

1:19:40

squeeze function. Yeah, sure. Like, I mean, you

1:19:42

could do also do a button Apple, but

1:19:44

it's so unseemly. So a

1:19:46

squeeze function and haptic

1:19:48

feedback in the pencil of some kind. Maybe

1:19:51

that's just in response to your squeeze. Maybe

1:19:53

it'll be like a rumble feature to make

1:19:55

it feel like textured paper or something. Who

1:19:57

knows? But the pencil continues

1:19:59

to get increasingly fancy. I think the rumors

1:20:01

are that it will still be flat sided, it will

1:20:03

still attach magnetically, it will be a little bit shorter

1:20:05

than the old one, maybe to fit in wherever they're

1:20:07

going to slap it on. Maybe it'll go on the

1:20:09

short side this time as

1:20:12

more of a landscape, you know, landscape oriented

1:20:14

iPad type thing where the camera's on the top and the pencil's

1:20:16

on the side. You know, that's,

1:20:19

that's a reasonable. And then the one hope this

1:20:22

year, Marco, is the rumors of a more

1:20:24

quote, laptop like aluminum

1:20:27

Magic Keyboard and trackpad. I

1:20:30

don't think it's going to attach with holes, but

1:20:32

I think it will be well to help Casey

1:20:34

and his poor worn out, you

1:20:36

know, help everybody with their poor worn

1:20:38

out iPad keyboards that are made of

1:20:41

whatever fabric or rubbery membrane or whatever.

1:20:43

If you make the thing out of aluminum

1:20:45

and plastic just like the laptops, it will

1:20:47

wear like the laptops do, which is better

1:20:49

than these iPad things. Bigger

1:20:52

trackpad, maybe a glass trackpad, it's made

1:20:54

of aluminum, it can go structurally sturdy.

1:20:56

They still have the

1:20:58

problem of most of the weight being in the screen part sort

1:21:00

of being the inverse of a laptop where laptops, the

1:21:03

screen is light and the base is heavy. And that works

1:21:05

out for a, you know, a simple rear hinge. They

1:21:08

don't have that on the iPad. So they got to do

1:21:10

some sort of cantilevering thing. But for people who do want

1:21:13

a more laptop like experience out of their

1:21:15

iPad, the rumors are that Apple is going

1:21:17

to deliver that. Yeah, I so

1:21:20

first of all, just back to the pencil for a second.

1:21:23

The double tap gesture to like change tools

1:21:25

or go to the eraser on the pencil

1:21:27

has always been a little finicky and a

1:21:30

little bit like it's easy to accidentally trigger

1:21:32

it. Excuse me, excuse me, that is not

1:21:34

fair. It is so frustratingly

1:21:36

difficult to get right. Really? I've always found

1:21:38

it like triggers accidentally. Well, yeah, it's either

1:21:41

you're doing well, that's the thing, you're either

1:21:43

doing it when you don't want to or

1:21:45

completely freaking unable to do it when you

1:21:47

do want to, right? So very frustrating. So

1:21:50

like, I assume that that

1:21:52

double tap gesture will be replaced

1:21:54

by whatever form this like haptic

1:21:56

squeeze possible button thing is. And

1:21:58

if so, That's great, because

1:22:00

that needs to be rethought. I'm

1:22:03

hoping to see that. Do you think it'll replace it

1:22:05

or be in addition to it? Oh, that's a good

1:22:07

question. I hope it replaces it directly, because I think

1:22:10

that would be better. I mean, it replaced it in

1:22:12

the AirPods. There's that precedent, right? AirPods used to be

1:22:14

tap, and now they're squeezed? Yes, but

1:22:16

the AirPods don't have haptic feedback. They

1:22:19

play a click sound. So they give

1:22:21

you feedback, but it's audio feedback, not

1:22:23

vibration feedback. So we'll see. What

1:22:26

is audio but vibrations? Wow. Well

1:22:29

done. Well done. But if you

1:22:31

look, there were rumors last fall about

1:22:34

the iPhones getting basically non-moving buttons that

1:22:36

would provide haptic feedback, so they would

1:22:38

feel like buttons, but they wouldn't actually

1:22:41

be moving. Maybe they are using whatever

1:22:43

tech that was that didn't make it

1:22:45

into last year's iPhones. Maybe that's what

1:22:47

this is in the pencil. That's not

1:22:49

like I've been much more skeptical about that

1:22:51

stuff in the past. I

1:22:53

think Apple has shown over time that

1:22:55

when they actually try to make a

1:22:58

haptic button that is supposed

1:23:00

to behave and feel like a button, they usually

1:23:02

do a pretty good job. You had the home

1:23:04

buttons on the iPhone 7 and forward, those

1:23:09

actually felt pretty good. They felt like buttons. The

1:23:12

track pads. Yeah, the clicking track pads. When

1:23:14

they actually attempt to make something feel and work

1:23:18

like a button, they usually do a good job of

1:23:20

it recently. So if that's what they're doing,

1:23:22

I have high hopes

1:23:24

that it will probably be decent. And

1:23:27

so my major pencil

1:23:29

question marks are basically

1:23:32

how the heck it will attach and charge and where it

1:23:34

will attach and charge to the iPad. And

1:23:36

battery life. Honestly, I

1:23:38

don't think it's pretty good. Right, but

1:23:40

now they're going to put a motor in there, like

1:23:43

a little, whatever it is, the haptic

1:23:45

engine. That's fair. I mean,

1:23:47

it would probably be pretty tiny. And

1:23:49

you're not basically feeling it constantly. Anyway,

1:23:52

I wouldn't worry too much about that. My

1:23:55

main concern is where does it

1:23:57

go on the iPad? How does it attach? How does it

1:23:59

charge? And. do they give it some kind

1:24:01

of nice button feel or button effect for

1:24:03

that? That would be great. I

1:24:06

thought about it, Casey. I thought about whether they would put

1:24:08

it on the short side. I don't

1:24:10

know. You've got to figure out where the speaker

1:24:13

is going. It is supposed to be shorter,

1:24:15

though. Regardless of which side it's on, the rumor is that it

1:24:17

is slightly shorter than the Apple Pencil 2. Yeah.

1:24:19

So we'll see. And somebody,

1:24:21

I forget where I saw this, somewhere

1:24:24

on Mastodon, I think, somebody was saying,

1:24:26

wouldn't it be great if this also

1:24:28

worked with future iPhones? And,

1:24:31

yeah, that would be amazing. But, yeah,

1:24:33

it probably would not be small enough

1:24:35

to magnetically attach to an iPhone. But,

1:24:37

I don't know. Honestly,

1:24:40

I would love something like that for iPhones. But

1:24:42

the problem also with that is that if

1:24:46

you've noticed, recent iPads that are compatible

1:24:48

with the Pencil get really fingerprinty, way

1:24:50

more than your phone. And the reason

1:24:52

why is because the phone's

1:24:54

oleophobic coating apparently gets worn away if

1:24:56

you would use it on the iPad

1:24:58

for the Pencil. So when iPads became

1:25:01

Pencil compatible, they actually had to switch

1:25:03

to a worse oleophobic coating on the

1:25:05

glass. And that's why modern iPads get

1:25:07

so incredibly fingerprinty so easily. But anyway,

1:25:09

so back to the iPad. Those were

1:25:12

my wishes for the Pencil. I would

1:25:14

love for it to have some kind of physical attachment

1:25:16

mechanism that was not just magnets that actually would stay

1:25:18

there. But I'm

1:25:20

not super confident in that. So

1:25:24

in the absence of that, yeah, give me a happy

1:25:26

button, sure. Third-party opportunity. There's

1:25:28

lots of cases with little loops and latches and

1:25:30

pockets and things for you to stick your pencil

1:25:32

in. That seems to be Apple's solution to

1:25:34

this problem. It attaches with a magnet. If you don't jostle

1:25:37

it too much, if you want to travel with it, buy

1:25:39

one of those cases where you can stick it in a

1:25:41

little holster or a loop or whatever. We

1:25:45

are brought to you this episode by Computex

1:25:47

2024, one of the

1:25:49

world's largest AIOT and startup shows happening

1:25:51

in Taipei from June 4th through 7th.

1:25:54

Whether you're a seasoned industry professional

1:25:56

or a passionate entrepreneur, Computex has

1:25:59

something for everyone. You can discover

1:26:01

cutting-edge technology from AI computing, advanced

1:26:03

connectivity, and future mobility. You can

1:26:05

explore the latest trends and innovations

1:26:08

shaping the future of tech. And

1:26:10

network with industry leaders at InnoVex. Don't

1:26:13

miss the chance to skyrocket your startup

1:26:15

with InnoVex. Computex is an international startup

1:26:17

hub. InnoVex facilitates connections

1:26:19

with manufacturing partners and global

1:26:22

sales channels through competitions and

1:26:24

presentations, ensuring heightened visibility and

1:26:26

investor support. And you can

1:26:28

gain insights from thought leaders by attending

1:26:30

keynote speakers from the likes of AMD, Intel,

1:26:33

Qualcomm, MediaTek, Supermicro, NXP, and

1:26:35

Delta, and workshops led by

1:26:37

industry experts, gaining valuable knowledge

1:26:39

and insights. So if you're

1:26:41

ready to grow your career

1:26:43

and expand your network, head

1:26:45

over to computex.typay.com.tw slash atp

1:26:47

to register now and secure

1:26:50

your spot at Computex 2024

1:26:52

from June 4th through 7th.

1:26:56

Don't miss out on this incredible opportunity to be

1:26:58

at the forefront of the tech revolution. Thank

1:27:00

you so much to Computex 2024 for

1:27:02

sponsoring our show. Happy

1:27:26

this conversation. Shocking that you don't remember something

1:27:28

that happened years ago on the show. Exactly,

1:27:30

exactly. So what's the story there, Marco?

1:27:33

So it turns out you

1:27:35

were kind of right. Oh,

1:27:38

I'm actually very surprised by this, to be

1:27:40

honest. So I no

1:27:42

longer roast my own beans. I

1:27:44

never ended up roasting at the beach. It was not a

1:27:46

great setting for it. Like, you know, when you roast with

1:27:49

a whole bunch of, like, smoke and stuff you have to

1:27:51

deal with. And the beach setup

1:27:53

was just really not a good environment for

1:27:55

that. And what happened in those years, like,

1:27:57

when I moved to the beach, you know,

1:28:00

early COVID times, mail

1:28:02

order coffee was already really good by that

1:28:04

point. I had these wonderful mail order options.

1:28:07

What also happened around that same

1:28:09

time was my taste in coffee

1:28:11

shifted towards more

1:28:14

medium and light roasts. Medium

1:28:16

and light roasts are more difficult to do,

1:28:18

especially on a home roaster. My

1:28:20

roasting skills were really not up for

1:28:23

making that style of coffee. So

1:28:25

my home roasting kind of fell off. Um, and I

1:28:27

stopped doing it and I just switched mail order. And

1:28:30

that got me through most of COVID all of

1:28:32

COVID. Um, more recently

1:28:34

it's actually gotten a little bit worse because

1:28:37

in the new house, I'm

1:28:41

still living in a construction zone here. There's

1:28:43

still like, you know, paper on the floors.

1:28:46

There's, there's like coverings on the countertops. They're

1:28:48

still doing like some painting and wall works.

1:28:50

There's still dust being produced here and there.

1:28:53

First of all, there are many days where I just like can't

1:28:55

even get into the kitchen or like the sink

1:28:57

will have a drop cloth over it because they're working above

1:28:59

it or something that was, that was going on today. So

1:29:02

what I've been doing mostly is just going to the coffee

1:29:04

shop in town. Or I've often just

1:29:06

been doing a frozen coffee pods. There's a company

1:29:08

called Comiteer that also they make really good frozen

1:29:10

pods. And I wish I, I,

1:29:13

frankly, I love them. They're, they're fantastic. I

1:29:15

wouldn't recommend it for every day cause it's a

1:29:17

little bit over the top, you know, having these

1:29:19

like frozen pods that you have to get shipped

1:29:21

to you. And you know, the, you know, the,

1:29:23

the per cup cost is way higher than bean

1:29:26

costs and everything. But if you don't have a

1:29:28

coffee maker or an Aeropress nearby

1:29:31

to use, if you

1:29:33

just need to like make some coffee

1:29:35

without pretty much any equipment except maybe

1:29:37

a hot water kettle, it's

1:29:39

a great way to do it. And honestly,

1:29:42

the coffee that I get from

1:29:44

Comiteer is better than anything I've ever

1:29:46

home-roasted. It's really good. So anyway, so

1:29:49

all that is to say, I've

1:29:52

completely stopped roasting my own beans, which I used

1:29:54

to do regularly for years. I

1:29:56

have partially stopped even making my

1:29:58

own coffee. brewing my own coffee

1:30:00

at home because I just haven't had a reliable kitchen

1:30:02

set up a lot of the time for the last

1:30:04

few months. And so I

1:30:07

assume I will get back into at least

1:30:09

the brewing part more. Once

1:30:11

things calm down here and I actually have a

1:30:13

kitchen that is not full of dust that I

1:30:15

can actually use reliably, I

1:30:18

expect to get back into brewing my own coffee and remaining

1:30:21

good at that. But I'm

1:30:23

actually further from it now than I've ever been. And

1:30:26

that was mostly because mailware

1:30:28

services got really good and

1:30:32

also Comiteer kind of ruined me because it's

1:30:34

really good too. It doesn't sound like I'm

1:30:36

even kid related though. No, well not really.

1:30:38

No, because like I mean really, you know, my kid

1:30:40

just turned 12 and

1:30:44

I was roasting my own

1:30:46

coffee until he was about eight and

1:30:48

brewing my own coffee until he was 11. So,

1:30:51

you know, I don't think it was kid related.

1:30:53

I think it's just like

1:30:55

old person reality. Aging related, you

1:30:57

know? Yeah, busyness related and aging

1:30:59

related. Like, you know, my

1:31:01

taste shifted towards something I don't make very well,

1:31:03

light roasts. And other

1:31:05

options for that taste became available

1:31:08

that were really good. Andy

1:31:10

writes, after years of trying, I finally got

1:31:12

an invitation to attend WWDC. I

1:31:14

hope you guys will cover the what to do or

1:31:16

not to do at WWDC. As I've been told that

1:31:18

you've done in the past, even a pointer to which

1:31:21

episodes I should listen to would be extremely helpful. I

1:31:23

don't feel like I can be of help at all

1:31:26

because last time I was at WWDC, it was in

1:31:28

San Jose. So, Marco, tell us about this. Yeah,

1:31:31

so one thing to note, Andy, is that

1:31:33

the WWDC experience today and for the last

1:31:35

couple of years that it's been at Apple

1:31:37

Park is very different from what it was

1:31:39

in the past where it was at a

1:31:41

conference center. And it was a whole week

1:31:43

of in-person sessions. So what it

1:31:46

is now is all the sessions are virtual,

1:31:48

so there's really no in-person component there at

1:31:51

all. The only in-person stuff to do now

1:31:53

is there's like a big

1:31:55

developer event that you were presumably invited to at

1:31:57

Apple Park to watch the keynote. What

1:32:00

this is, is you are sitting in

1:32:02

a lawn like an apple park in front of those

1:32:04

giant sliding doors for the cafeteria. You

1:32:06

sit in a bunch of chairs set up like a big

1:32:08

outdoor concert or something.

1:32:10

Tim Cook comes out on stage, says hello, good

1:32:13

morning. And then you watch the

1:32:15

video basically on a giant screen. And

1:32:17

then afterwards you go and you're

1:32:19

led over to some

1:32:22

kind of various events. There's tours and stuff like

1:32:24

that. And then there's

1:32:26

occasional other stuff around Apple

1:32:28

Park for that day and maybe the day

1:32:30

after, especially revolving around the Apple Visitor Center,

1:32:33

which is like it's kind of across the

1:32:35

street and has like a coffee shop and

1:32:38

it's basically a big Apple store and stuff. And

1:32:40

then there's a handful of other community events that

1:32:42

happen. There's things like the live talk show that

1:32:44

usually happen there. There's other

1:32:47

like smaller groups that are

1:32:49

arranging things, certain developer groups and meetup

1:32:51

kind of things happening. So

1:32:53

this is a very different experience than it used to be, but

1:32:55

it's still pretty fun. It's

1:32:57

just different. The big thing to keep

1:33:00

in mind when you're going there now, there

1:33:02

is no conference center.

1:33:05

So you're led into the event and you're

1:33:08

there in Apple Park. You're obviously very well

1:33:10

controlled by Apple people the whole time of

1:33:12

where you can go and what you're doing.

1:33:15

But then after that you are escorted, you have

1:33:17

the few handful of things that they then are

1:33:19

escorted out and then you can't get back in

1:33:22

for the rest of the week. So plan

1:33:25

– if you're going to be there for like a

1:33:27

few days, try to plan stuff to do with the

1:33:29

other groups and events that happen around that because

1:33:32

you're just like kind of let out into suburban

1:33:35

Cupertino. It's like, all right, bye. That's

1:33:38

it. It's not like you're not in downtown San

1:33:40

Jose anymore or downtown San Francisco. And so there's

1:33:43

really no like town to hang out in. It's

1:33:45

just like Apple Park and then

1:33:48

the visitor center and then a bunch of houses

1:33:50

around you. So the

1:33:52

hotel situation is a little boring

1:33:55

or challenging. The

1:33:57

like dinner and evening event

1:33:59

situation. There's a little limited there. You're basically

1:34:01

hanging out in the suburbs next to an office park

1:34:03

that won't let you back in So

1:34:06

plan for that with like what you expect event

1:34:08

wise if you can get into any of the

1:34:10

other like side events that are Going on do

1:34:12

that You know plan

1:34:15

for that accordingly and and I

1:34:17

wouldn't I honestly I wouldn't recommend

1:34:19

staying Past you know

1:34:21

like the the events on Monday. I would

1:34:23

say you can usually safely leave on

1:34:25

at least Wednesday maybe

1:34:27

even Tuesday, you know depending on whether you but

1:34:29

there's certain events you want to go to but

1:34:32

That's what to expect like it's a really fun

1:34:35

presentation that day, but then you're kind of on

1:34:37

your own so plan accordingly Wade

1:34:40

asks does it bother you that you have

1:34:42

no privacy with public electric charging stations? They

1:34:44

know who you are and where you live

1:34:46

because you're billing information what car you drive

1:34:49

where you were when how far you drove

1:34:51

between Charges etc. So any practical way

1:34:53

to have an electric car not be tracked short of only

1:34:55

ever charging it at home Do you know what the charger

1:34:57

operators do it? This is information. Do they anonymize it? Do

1:34:59

they sell it? I mean I

1:35:01

hear you but I mean this is the way

1:35:04

the world is going and I don't think bad

1:35:06

news about credit cards Yeah, exactly like I don't

1:35:08

see how how there's

1:35:10

really any two ways around this and I Just

1:35:14

I'm really struggling to get myself worked up

1:35:16

about this especially since credit cards exist, you

1:35:18

know There's so much data tracking on your

1:35:20

phones, which PL Apple is doing their best

1:35:22

to try to issue But maybe Wade pays

1:35:24

with cash and gas stations. Yeah, you never

1:35:26

know what's possible I mean, so there are

1:35:28

a couple stories related to this which are

1:35:30

more in the vein of things that are

1:35:33

car specific because knowing Where you are and

1:35:35

what you're doing if you

1:35:37

use any kind of electronic form of payment,

1:35:39

that's sufficient. But the car stuff is

1:35:41

like Knowing how you

1:35:43

drive and so there are a couple

1:35:45

stories. This one is from March of

1:35:47

this year Automakers sharing

1:35:49

consumers driving behavior with insurance companies

1:35:51

that you don't want. I mean,

1:35:54

I especially do not want that I can assure you

1:35:57

Yeah, I mean like it's kind of the point

1:35:59

of insurance Like as you slice and dice the

1:36:01

insured population into smaller and smaller groups based on

1:36:03

any behavior, insurance stops being insurance. The whole point

1:36:05

of insurance is you're spreading the risk. So you

1:36:07

have to be in a group with, there has

1:36:09

to be variability within a group. If you just

1:36:12

put all the high risk drivers in one group

1:36:14

and all low risk drivers and like

1:36:16

you keep slicing up like that, then everyone should just pay

1:36:18

for their own car problems. Like there's

1:36:20

no longer insurance. The whole point is you're

1:36:22

pooling risk. And so there is,

1:36:25

I mean, it's not really that big of

1:36:27

a danger because insurance companies aren't going to

1:36:29

be that stupid, but insurance companies do want

1:36:31

to adjust the risk pools to their advantage

1:36:33

based on knowing exactly how you drive. And

1:36:36

that was a controversy in March. And

1:36:38

then about 10 days later, General

1:36:40

Motors said that they were going to stop sharing

1:36:43

their driving behavior with data brokers. Right. Oh,

1:36:46

good for you. Yeah. This is the

1:36:48

real frontier of privacy in cars. It's not

1:36:50

knowing where you go based on paying for

1:36:52

charging, electric chargers. It is the

1:36:55

telemetry gathered while you

1:36:57

are driving and where that information goes and

1:36:59

what control you have over that information. And

1:37:01

that is, I feel like the more important

1:37:04

battle front. The

1:37:06

battle of like trying to find an electric charging

1:37:08

station where you can feed $20 bills into a

1:37:10

slot. I think that's not going to happen.

1:37:13

But yeah, like again, everywhere you go, if you

1:37:15

pay for gas with a credit card or any

1:37:18

kind of electronic form of payment, it's not really

1:37:20

that much different. And in terms of knowing what

1:37:22

you drive, everybody knows what you drive. Your vehicle

1:37:24

is registered. Like it's not publicly available or at

1:37:27

least information that's available to the people who want

1:37:29

to know it. So I

1:37:31

would fight for your right to privacy

1:37:34

during. Yeah. Fight for

1:37:36

your right to privacy while you're driving.

1:37:38

Like the actual moment to moment

1:37:40

information about your driving, even what your trips are,

1:37:42

where you go, how long it takes you to

1:37:44

get from point A to point B. All that

1:37:47