0:06

Hey, want to welcome in. I'm John Gotwin. This is

0:08

all ball, So here we are and you're

0:11

downloading this. It's a weekend

0:13

of great college basketball. NFL

0:16

football is over. Now it's time

0:18

for kind of the rest of the world to dig

0:21

in on the sport and kind

0:23

of what an interesting year we have, right,

0:26

I mean, you go coast to coast. UCLA was

0:30

far below their normal standard,

0:33

but very very young, and lots

0:35

of questions about mixed future. And UCLA

0:37

seems to have righted the ship on some level as their

0:40

young players are coming of age. Still UCLA

0:43

down Indiana, Michigan,

0:45

Ohio State already makes a coaching change,

0:48

Louisville. I mean, look, look, we're in a world in which

0:51

there's at least a possibility that

0:53

Ohio State, which is already open, Louisville

0:55

likely to come open, Michigan and

0:58

Indiana, Minnesota

1:00

could all come open in one

1:02

year. And what's this? Is it the expectations?

1:05

Sure?

1:06

Is it? Nil? I think so?

1:09

And then of course it's kind of cyclical, right,

1:11

Some leagues go through this. In one year You'll see

1:14

MASSI about pupil and changes, and then

1:16

you consider that next year it's going to

1:18

be even more competitive more interesting in

1:20

the Big Ten with UCLA, Washington,

1:22

Oregon, USC coming in. Speaking of

1:25

USC, heikes hikes

1:27

Right, there's basically it feels

1:30

like two different stories of teams

1:32

that are struggling. There's a couple of

1:34

programs I'd say sc

1:38

Arkansas, Villanova

1:41

and again in their league you see Santa Barbara

1:44

that I feel like their teams put together

1:46

with the proper or maybe even

1:48

a ton of support with nil and

1:51

yet chemistry issues have

1:54

really derailed those programs. And all

1:56

are coached by coaches that are well

1:59

regarded, right, like Joe Pastick's done a good job

2:01

at you see Santa Barbara. Now they have more

2:04

talent at least on paper than everybody else, but can

2:06

they get to fit together. Eric Musselman's

2:08

been to two straight lead eights at Arkansas, right,

2:10

So it's not like Eric Musselman doesn't know what he's doing, but

2:12

man that they went from beating

2:15

Duke and feeling like another great year at

2:17

Arkansas to an absolute mess.

2:20

Villanova still kind of hasn't figured out the ability

2:23

to get consistent. So

2:25

it's a really interesting year. But one team

2:27

that has done well is Indiana State. That's where begin

2:30

today Josh Sure as a new head coach or

2:32

I don't know, it's a couple of years head coach at

2:34

Indiana State, and at

2:37

least for the time being, they're still ranked. Of

2:39

course, coming off of a mid week

2:41

loss after a nine

2:43

game winning streak, I think

2:45

it's a perfect time to sit down with the coach and catch

2:48

up with him, as they had to Southern Illinois

2:51

to try and kind of get right in the Valley. But a

2:54

program that comes from I don't want to say

2:56

shambles, but been down for so long in

3:00

such a historically challenging

3:02

conference. And obviously the conference has changed

3:05

over the past couple of years, but still Indiana

3:07

State not seen as one

3:09

of the breadwinners in the valley.

3:11

And in very short order, Jason

3:13

Shirts has taken it from also

3:15

ran coaching change to a

3:18

top the league. And then of course you factor

3:20

in what

3:22

he was able to construct at Lincoln Memorial,

3:25

great Division two program. I

3:28

had to sit down with him and figure out

3:30

his journey. The most

3:32

interesting part is how our paths collided

3:36

twenty five years

3:38

ago when one of the

3:40

great upsets maybe

3:43

in the recent history of college basketball

3:46

took place. So we'll start there.

3:49

He's the head coach at Indiana State, Josh

3:52

Shirts. Do

3:55

you remember what happened on this floor before

3:57

Atlantic?

3:58

I do. I was actually that Florida, Florida

4:00

Atlanta coaching when we played you

4:03

guys and stopped what was like a

4:05

was it a ten year or something non conference

4:07

home winning streak or something crazy?

4:10

And it was eighty one game yep,

4:13

non conference home winning.

4:15

That's what I remember. I remember that. I remember

4:17

that was. Look, we won six games that

4:19

year. It wasn't hard to remember the wins, but that one,

4:22

for some reason stood out a little

4:24

bit more. I was that was my first year

4:26

coaching. We went to a state and you guys

4:29

were just so good, and

4:31

it was just one of those things in competition.

4:34

It was like one night

4:36

and yeah, eighty one games. I remember just

4:38

sitting there, No, no, okay,

4:41

so what what did your record? Like? You began?

4:45

I remember the loose ball. Gary

4:47

Durant picked it up to finish it. I remember

4:49

that play at the very end to win

4:51

the game right on, like a scramble. One.

4:54

Uh, you had a if

4:56

I remember correctly, you had a gazillion

4:58

assists that night.

5:01

Eighteen eighteen, actually.

5:04

Is it eighteen that would have felt like I was gonna get picked

5:06

sixteen. But I knew it was a lot. I

5:08

knew it was a lot.

5:10

But would you indulge me? And can I tell you the story

5:12

of that game from the other side?

5:14

Ye?

5:15

Yop.

5:16

So the late Brooks Thompson, who

5:18

was a great player at OKLHOM State and became a very good

5:20

coach. He had he

5:22

hurt his back playing for the Orlando Magic, Hm,

5:26

maybe the maybe the Nicks. I can't remember who

5:29

he heard his back playing for, but he heard his back. So

5:32

that year he was like a student manager. And

5:36

if you knew Brooks, he was like one of the

5:38

most ferocious shit talkers

5:40

of all time all time. So

5:43

that was his first scattering report

5:46

ever, Oh god, and I believe

5:49

the last report heard

5:51

ever. So the

5:54

way, the way, and

5:57

I'll be interested to know we'll get into your

5:59

own personal kind of coaching style. But one

6:01

of the things coach Setting used to do was in

6:05

those buy games, you'd walk

6:07

in the locker room, you know,

6:09

for the last time, and

6:11

there would be a list of goals

6:15

on the board. Then you

6:17

know, it would be like, hey, we shoot eighty from

6:19

the line, you know, over

6:22

fifty from the field, you know, hold

6:24

them under thirty under, you know we score

6:26

over eighty. I still do it when I coach now, just

6:28

the idea of, hey, let's don't

6:31

don't worry about the scoreboard as much as

6:34

these are the goals, you know. And

6:37

and one of his things would be, especially against

6:39

the team that was seen as an inferior opponent,

6:42

was if you do these

6:44

things tomorrow, you have off.

6:46

If you don't, we're going at

6:49

seven am, right right

6:51

the carrot.

6:52

Yeah.

6:53

So so Brooks

6:55

comes in and he's like, you don't need

6:57

to watch tape. This is the shittiest fucking

6:59

team him to ever take the floor the white

7:02

I guess Gallagher IBA the

7:04

court, the floor, the surface is the

7:06

same surface they've always had to white maple. So

7:10

this is the worst team the step

7:12

foot on the white maple in

7:14

the history of gallagher IB arena. We

7:17

don't come out if you unite, if you

7:19

don't come out and play your balls off, just

7:23

fuck it. You don't play your balls off. We're practicing

7:25

at six am tomorrow. Like he didn't have the authority

7:28

to have a six am practice, you know whatever.

7:30

But still we

7:34

had at the time only

7:36

three four scholarship

7:39

guards or guards wings

7:41

available that

7:43

year, there was kind of imbalanced roster and we had Glenn

7:46

and Alexander who was McDonald's American

7:48

transfer of Markansas and he was eligible

7:50

like three games later, right, and so that

7:52

was so it was Joe Atkins, myself,

7:55

Adrian petersoner best player, Decid Mason who want

7:57

to play the NBA, and then we just

7:59

had a bunch of big dudes, even

8:01

some guys that are kind of like hybrid big guys. So,

8:05

Rex, is that coach correct for

8:09

you?

8:09

Was it was? It was Kevin Billerman.

8:12

Okay, So Kevin had a great game plan.

8:15

Okay, I remember it. You guys would run

8:17

flex and this

8:19

is back in the I think it was

8:22

forty five second shot clock air maybe thirty five second

8:24

shot clock. Are you guys would run

8:26

flex for like thirty

8:28

seconds and then whoever

8:31

our big guy was guarding would

8:34

catch it and go one four flat at the end of the shot

8:36

clock. Yeah, we we have, right,

8:40

But you had like six four six five guys.

8:43

Gary Durant, Damon Arnett, those kind of guys.

8:45

Yeah, yeah, yeah, So so

8:47

they combined for like all,

8:50

but I think six or eight of your points

8:53

really, but I think that's like, so

8:55

we're up. I want to say

8:58

again, this is just off the top of my head, like forty

9:01

four to forty two and a half

9:04

and we come in and like again,

9:07

this is where coach setting was pretty cool. It was like he let

9:09

us kind of speak our mind a little bit. We're like, coach,

9:12

we got to go zone, and

9:15

he's like coage

9:17

man guarders, man guard you man,

9:21

Like coach, they're isolating

9:24

our big. We gotta they gotta guard and our big.

9:26

And the other part about our bigs were it

9:29

couldn't fucking score if you lock them in the gym,

9:31

right, they just couldn't. Unseen

9:33

was a freshman, he couldn't. So the fact

9:35

that we had a mismatching offense didn't matter because they couldn't

9:38

score at all. Like it you know.

9:40

You on one end, but you were getting punished

9:42

on the other end.

9:44

So uh, we come on

9:46

in the second half and it's a little bit better. And then

9:49

we're up and I catch the ball

9:52

like sideline obi and you guys like

9:54

surprise trap me, like the guy guarding the inbounder

9:56

and the guy who's guarding me trapped me. And

9:58

I try and rip and step through and

10:01

I get the ball stolen. They go down, go down

10:03

and lay the ball. It was one of the eight

10:05

points scored by a guard. And

10:08

I had a little cut under my eye, and like

10:10

an asshole, like I got fouled, but

10:12

instead of just going like pointing to it, I just

10:14

go it's a fucking foul right there, you know, like I

10:16

got to catch my eye. So again we're

10:19

up three. Pet

10:21

Nicole foul. Make

10:24

both three throws down. One

10:26

coach takes me out of the game. Now

10:30

we have two big guys in who

10:33

can't fucking guard anybody and can't score. And

10:36

you guys throwing a three then

10:38

get a steal. Now it's like eight. Coach

10:40

puts you back in. The coach puts you back in the game.

10:44

So then we come

10:46

down the end of the game. I

10:49

think it's a tie game,

10:52

and you guys had the ball with a minute.

10:54

I'm gonna say like a minute five to go, and

10:58

late in the shot clock may it may have

11:00

been like a minute fifteen, So

11:02

late in the shock clock, he throw it into the post

11:05

and Alex Weber are one center kicks

11:07

it resets

11:09

the shot clock. So now

11:12

we got to play defense again. So

11:14

when we play defense, we get Joe

11:16

Atkins, who became an All American two guard

11:19

the next year, gets a rebound. I'm out

11:21

of head. Adrian Peterson, our best player,

11:23

leaks out. He's out of him. But there's

11:25

some traffic and

11:28

I don't think Gary Durant, I

11:30

think he made the lay in. I don't

11:32

think he got he made the lay So what

11:35

happened was though that your

11:37

guys are sprinting back on defense, somebody

11:39

else tripped and fell down. Okay,

11:43

and Atkins instead of advancing the ball,

11:45

he thought I was not open, so he dribbles

11:48

it and one of your guys who had tripped,

11:51

he dribbles off their foot. Gary

11:53

Durant had missed a drive. He was

11:56

on the ground. He gets up to

11:58

run back on defense, and there's the picks

12:02

it up, lays it in.

12:04

Yes, yep.

12:06

And then the last part is this and

12:08

this is well, as it was almost game, it was like Tuesday,

12:11

we throw it in a mid court call of time out and

12:14

this right, we and then we don't we got

12:16

it kind of a shot or whatever. But

12:19

it's very interesting to me. Again,

12:21

I'm my coaches was a great coach,

12:24

and Sean Sutton, who was basically our offensive coordinator

12:26

did an awesome job. But

12:28

it's interesting how things change.

12:31

We didn't have like an under

12:33

five inbounds play. M

12:36

hm, we didn't. We

12:38

didn't have like go tos automatics

12:40

based upon time. You know, all the things that coaches

12:43

do now and they love all right under

12:45

five years, what we do under three years, we do

12:47

under seven length of the court, here's what we do like

12:49

all of these things. And I go up and I'm just amazed.

12:52

And when I coach, I love it, and kids

12:54

like it too because they like the five four three two one

12:56

thing didn't have one. Wow, we

12:59

lose. And who did the cartwheel

13:02

for the fla?

13:03

I think that was

13:05

was that I want to say, it might

13:07

have been James Turner or Kevin might It might have been

13:10

Gary Durant or James Turner. Might have been James

13:12

Turner.

13:13

Right, So then of

13:15

course on Sports Center, you

13:17

know, they have like it's basically like Zabruder

13:19

footage because it wasn't a televised game. It's

13:22

some local like court level. Gary Durant

13:24

lays the ball in. Here's a backflip. Oklahoma

13:26

State ranked eighth in the country, losing home

13:28

first home loss non Conference home loss

13:30

in eighty one games. Right, So

13:33

we come in the next day and

13:35

instead of you know, Brooks

13:38

like hat in hand, my

13:40

bad, you know, kind of one of

13:42

us, they're showing that these

13:45

motherfuckers did a backflip on

13:47

your court. And

13:51

and I want to thank Dusty

13:53

May, I want to thank all those

13:55

players, because turns out

13:58

we lost to a final fort program.

14:00

Also an elite program. You loved. No one's gonna

14:02

remember that. We were six and twenty

14:05

that year, finished last place in

14:07

the in the in the what was it the TVAC

14:09

at that time, or whatever it was, the tack and

14:12

uh and and Billerman got fired at the end of

14:14

the year. No one will remember all that

14:16

stuff.

14:17

Why did you get in Why did you get into coaching? Uh?

14:21

I loved UH loved competing.

14:24

I loved being part of a team. I

14:28

felt like it kind of blended

14:30

those those things together. I loved I loved

14:32

when I played being part of a locker room, going

14:35

in with a group of guys, being unified, trying

14:37

to accomplish something. Loved

14:39

just the whole dynamics of

14:41

being a part of a team. And

14:44

then as I got into it, I really loved

14:46

and and I didn't probably when I started, didn't

14:48

know. But you know, as you go into it, Uh,

14:51

the relational side becomes the holy grail,

14:53

right, the relationships you developed with the players

14:55

and and and while you're with

14:58

them, and then of course when they leave,

15:00

you know, it turns from like it's like

15:02

like you do with your parents. You know, you go from you know,

15:05

father's son to friends over time, right,

15:07

and it's kind of the same thing. You go from

15:09

player, coach to friends and

15:11

they really become, you know, people that you value

15:13

in your life and relationships because

15:16

you get to know somebody

15:18

when you coach them or on a team

15:20

with them, play with them, whatever, on a deeper

15:22

level, you know, because you see them at their best

15:25

and at their worst and in success

15:27

and adversity and failure and triumph and

15:30

you know you you you know, blood sweat

15:32

and tears with somebody's a different type of relationship.

15:34

And then you know, and then the

15:36

ability to help guys, you know, grow

15:39

and get better.

15:41

Say, leave Florida Atlantic And what

15:43

was it like to try and go find a job?

15:45

It was it was hard. I mean I had

15:47

you know, so I got into it. I gave

15:50

up, you know, I wasn't a very good player. Gave up my

15:52

senior year of playing to go work

15:54

at Floridatlantic as a graduate

15:56

assistant. But I didn't graduate, so I was really

15:58

a student assistant and they out with

16:00

tuition, but I was,

16:02

you know, I was working a lot for free. And at

16:04

the end of the year, coach Billerman

16:06

got fired and I was in there when he

16:08

got fired. I didn't know anything. I was, you know, twenty two,

16:11

twenty three years old, didn't even know

16:13

how that worked. And next thing,

16:15

you know, they they moved

16:17

the whole staff except for me and

16:19

one of the assistants. And so I go from I

16:22

take a recruiting test, and I'm recruiting

16:24

and working at Florida Atlantic as a

16:26

you know, an assistant, but just me and me and one of the

16:28

other assistants or the whole program. They

16:31

they hired Sidney Green, who was who replaced

16:33

Kevin Billerman. And when they

16:35

hired Sidney, he

16:38

brought me in, and you

16:41

know, and and Sidney brought me in

16:43

and and let me go from basically a volunteer

16:46

job. He was like that the

16:48

the players really liked me, spoke highly of

16:50

me, but that our players were the

16:52

opposite of winners, and so that must say a lot

16:54

about me. Basically was the gist of the conversation

16:57

was the players like me and they were you know, lose.

17:00

Then that doesn't say much about me. And so I

17:02

was out of a job. And Coach Billerman,

17:05

to his credit, him to do anything for me. I

17:08

mean he barely you know, we worked together for

17:10

one year. He called a bunch of different people.

17:12

He got me some options at Florida Southern

17:14

at Lynn University. I decided,

17:16

because I had a kid, I was, I had a son,

17:19

a young son, I was

17:21

going to stay in Boca. And that's what I did. I went

17:23

to Lynn University, which was literally

17:25

a mile away. I finished my

17:27

degree that next year at at

17:30

FAU while I worked at Lynn. And

17:32

uh and that was so I stayed in Boca for for those

17:34

next two years. But uh, but coach Billerman,

17:37

you know, without him, I want to have that opportunity.

17:41

Who was at coach Lynn.

17:42

Andy Russo, who was carmel

17:44

Oone's coach Louisiana Tech coached

17:46

at Washington Wash had

17:49

like Christian Belp and all those guys, but

17:51

he had been a power five. Uh, you

17:54

know, head coach had a lot of success, and

17:56

he he hired me there at lynn

18:00

first year is just as just an assistant. And

18:03

then my second year after I graduated,

18:05

I went as a graduate assistant. But in

18:08

D two it's so different. You know. On my first

18:10

year, you know, I was working as just

18:12

getting paid five thousand dollars, but I was able

18:15

to recruit new player development, you

18:17

know, I mean scouting reports. I was doing everything

18:19

because I was so small, And so

18:22

my two years there, I was working

18:24

out the bigs, working out the guards, doing scouting

18:26

reports, on the road, recruiting like I was getting

18:28

incredible hands on experience. No money,

18:31

but a tremendous experience

18:34

because it was really you know, my first

18:36

year was me, him and one of the guys. My second year was

18:39

me, him and a GA. So I

18:41

got great experience those two years working

18:43

with Andy, and he was he was just like Kevin

18:45

Billerman, you know, experienced, older

18:48

guy, knew his stuff and was really really

18:50

good to me.

18:51

Fox Sports Radio has the best sports

18:54

talk lineup in the nation. Catch all

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of our shows at foxsports Radio dot

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com and within the iHeart Radio

19:00

app search f s R to listen

19:03

live.

19:06

Give me one thing from Billerman that

19:09

you still say or do

19:11

today.

19:13

I think, Uh, the probably the biggest

19:15

thing for for coach Billerman that I

19:18

take today is

19:20

is how much he uh

19:23

genuinely cared for the players and how much

19:25

time he spent building relationships with them,

19:27

Like he he was

19:29

really invested in our guys. He

19:31

was really investis And the other thing that I thought

19:34

he did a good job of was, you know,

19:36

he tried to put guys in their

19:38

straint zones to play to there, you know, put them

19:40

in positions to do what they do best.

19:42

And those are probably two things that I

19:44

take that that that you know, I learned

19:46

from him very early on.

19:49

All Right, what about Russo?

19:52

Russo I think was was the

19:54

big picture approach, understanding

19:57

that you know, the

19:59

whole program, medical piece and how

20:02

everything ties together. You know, you have

20:04

recruiting, and recruiting has to fit

20:07

how you're going to play, and you got to have a vision for

20:09

how you're going to build your team. It

20:11

shouldn't just be you know, willy nilly when

20:13

you go out and grab a guy, grab a guy, grab a guy. You

20:16

know, the piece of the puzzle have to fit together

20:19

and compment each other. And he had a good you

20:21

know, gauge of trying to look at it from

20:23

a ten thousand foot view of

20:25

how to build a team, how to build a program, and how everything

20:27

tied together.

20:30

So you leave, Lynn, what was

20:33

what was the what was the plan?

20:36

Well, I got offered, which seemed at

20:38

the time a lot of money. I got offered like

20:40

twelve thousand dollars to move to Charlotte,

20:42

North Carolina. And Bart Lundy was

20:44

the head coach at at at Queen's

20:47

University of Charlotte, and so we

20:49

were Division two and I got like twelve

20:51

thousand, five hundred and a dorm room. So I

20:53

thought I was about to be rich it

20:56

with more money than I made the previous three years

20:58

combined. So it was it was pretty good. I

21:01

went there, worked for Bart.

21:04

My first year we were pretty good,

21:08

and then my second year we

21:10

were really good. We were number one in the country most of the year,

21:12

went to the final four, and

21:15

uh and so the second year, you

21:17

know, we we had a really good year, and then

21:19

uh, Bart got offered the job at high

21:21

Point after my after my second

21:24

year there, I think it was his fifth year, and

21:26

so, uh, you know, I

21:28

didn't really you know, Lynn,

21:30

I was going to stay at you know, Bart I think, you

21:32

know, they recruited Florida hard and

21:34

uh. He he had some people down there. He knew Nate

21:37

Dixon, who was his assistant, really recruited

21:39

Florida, had gone to Stetson Division

21:41

one. Bart was trying to find somebody

21:44

that could recruit Florida. I'd been down there for a couple

21:46

of years, and so for me, it was it

21:48

was a no brainer and a great experience. I

21:50

went with him, uh for

21:52

for two years there, and then I

21:54

was his associated coach at high Point for five

21:56

years. So I was I was with bart

21:58

the next seven years.

22:00

Now it was high Point D one when you guys, when you were

22:02

guys were there.

22:03

Yeah. Yeah. So he left Queens to go to high

22:05

Point, which was Division one. They had just finished

22:08

the transition under Jerry Steele, the

22:10

four year transition and coach Steel,

22:12

who was obviously a legendary coach. He

22:14

coached him through the transition and stepped away.

22:17

Bartt was hired from from Queen's

22:20

to high Point as their first you

22:22

know, that was the first year they were eligible for the NCAA

22:24

Tournament win the Big South.

22:27

High Points an amazing campus. It's

22:29

like it's it's it's

22:31

crazy now that's now. Was

22:33

it like that then?

22:35

So when I got there, it wasn't like that at all at

22:38

all, and then we

22:41

Uh I was there my first

22:43

couple of years, there was really nothing going

22:46

on. I was almost like it was gonna it was going to close. And

22:48

then the president

22:50

stepped down, he retired, and

22:52

they hired the guy

22:54

who was a chair of the board at high Point,

22:56

a guy named Nito Colbain, and

22:59

uh and doctor Cobain stepped

23:02

in to fill a void. And the

23:04

deal was he was going to do it for one year and

23:07

then, you know, turn it over to somebody else, and

23:09

that's had to be I don't know. Nineteen years

23:11

later, he's still doing it. And he

23:15

single handedly transformed

23:17

that university from a mom and pop like

23:20

barely keep you know, the doors open, to

23:23

like what you see today. And i'ven't been back in

23:25

a couple of years, but even when I was there in my last

23:27

couple of years, the campus was transforming.

23:31

They were building. There was

23:33

cranes everywhere, dirt being moved everywhere,

23:35

they were knocking stuff down, rebuilding

23:37

everything. And he took something

23:39

that I mean, if you were to go back to

23:42

nineteen years ago to now talking

23:44

about what Dusty's done at FAU,

23:47

doctor Cobain would get the same level of credit

23:49

for me for what he's done for High Point University.

23:51

As a in totality, it's amazing

23:54

what he's been able to do.

23:55

Bart had great success at Queens, had

23:57

success Highpoint obviously, He's had success

24:00

Milwaukee as well. Yeah,

24:02

what's allowed him to have that success?

24:05

I think, you know, there's

24:07

a couple of things. One, you know,

24:09

Bart is a guy that he

24:13

understands, you know, a

24:15

lot like coach Billerman did. He puts

24:17

guys in positions to be successful

24:19

like he can. You know, they run

24:22

great stuff, get their best

24:24

players the ball in their strain zones. He

24:27

is, he is really demanding. He asks

24:30

a lot of his guys. He pushes him, cares

24:32

about him. I think he invests in them. He's

24:35

a terrific recruiter. They get good talent.

24:37

He understands what fits his

24:39

system, you know, And

24:41

and he gets his guys to compete, you know, he gets

24:43

his guys to compete at high level. You know. We you

24:46

know, it was weird because I worked for him for seven years

24:49

and then when I

24:51

was at Lincoln Memorial the last

24:53

thirteen he took over back at Queen's.

24:55

Well, Queen's came to our league, and

24:59

you know, so we were, you know, we were playing

25:01

four times a year. I mean we were there was many

25:03

years. You know, we were I

25:05

think eight years in a row. We

25:08

finished one two in the league, and so we played

25:10

a lot of high stakes games, regional championships,

25:13

tournament championships, conference championships,

25:16

and so. But his ability to put guys

25:18

in their straining zone, his ability to recruit,

25:21

and he recruits hard, gets

25:24

really good players, and then he allowed,

25:26

like I said, puts them in positions to do what they do best.

25:28

And I think he's done a great job. But it's

25:30

a great job building a relationships. You could tell his guys care

25:32

about him and and that you

25:34

know he's invested in them. And so he's

25:37

been very successful every stop of the way. And it'll

25:39

be the same at Milwaukee. You know, he's already

25:41

shown I think twenty two wins last year

25:43

and you know they've been beat up a little

25:46

bit this year. But but he he'll do and continue to do a

25:48

great job.

25:51

Okay, so take me through the Lincoln

25:53

Memorial job. How'd you get it?

25:57

Nobody else wanted it. So it was I

26:00

mean, you know.

26:00

It first first okay. So but

26:03

again, you're at high point. Okay,

26:07

you've been with the same guy, you having some success,

26:10

Like were you looking everywhere

26:13

he had you even know it was open, let

26:15

alone know that no one wanted it.

26:17

Yeah, so I had. I had

26:19

been at high point at this point for five

26:21

years. I was the associated coach. We

26:24

were pretty good. I think we were like maybe

26:27

eighty seven and sixty six or eighty eight and sixty

26:29

six and my dad eighty six five. In my five

26:31

years there, we'd had pretty good teams, you

26:34

know, we just hadn't got over the hump. It was uh, you

26:37

know, we had Greg Marshall and Winthrop there who

26:39

were kind of dominating the league. We

26:41

got into a couple of championship games, never got

26:44

to the NCAA tournament. But

26:46

about my third year there, I was really

26:48

antsy to get a head coaching job. Felt

26:50

like, you know, I was

26:52

obviously worked for some really good coaches. I

26:54

had some ideas of what I wanted to do, and I

26:57

wanted to apply them, but I couldn't

26:59

get a job. As you know, I mean, the first

27:01

one is always the hardest, right everybody says, well,

27:04

you know, you have no head coaching experience. Well not

27:06

that anybody before they became a head coach. So you

27:08

know there's a lot of great Hall of Fame coaches, Eddie Sutton,

27:11

all these guys that you know, they weren't head coaches

27:13

until they became head coaches, right, So so you know,

27:15

you got to get a chance. And I interviewed

27:17

for some jobs Division two, couldn't

27:19

get them. And so after

27:22

my fifth year, they

27:24

changed, you know, they

27:26

let go of the athletic director. They

27:28

brought in a new athletic director. They

27:31

had I think talked to Bart about a contract

27:34

extension that kind of got squashed

27:37

with the new athletic director coming in. So not

27:39

that it was you know, at the time, you're not thinking anything negative.

27:42

I think we had won forty one games

27:44

the previous two years or forty games the previous

27:46

two years. But it

27:49

was a little bit uneasy and I

27:51

was looking I did really want to become a head

27:53

coach and try to see if I could do it myself.

27:55

And I wanted to, you know, I wanted to take

27:57

control of my career, you know, if I could. And

28:01

so Lincoln Memorial was a job that was

28:03

in the middle of nowhere, Tennessee. Uh

28:05

four thousand people in the town uh

28:07

Dry County, you know, and

28:10

uh I think the undergraduate

28:12

you know, population time was about a thousand, maybe

28:14

a little less. They were

28:16

had finished uh you know, last

28:19

most every year. They've never won twenty games at

28:21

the NCAA level, never been to the NCAA tournament,

28:24

you know, never. They had a really nice

28:26

arena, and that was about it. And

28:29

but I, you know, I was I wanted

28:31

to try it, you know, and and

28:33

and the the I guess the thing I

28:36

thought was, you know, it's

28:38

in the middle of nowhere, but you're you had close

28:40

proximity to a lot of different things. You were four

28:42

hours from Atlanta, four hours from Charlotte, three

28:44

from Cincinnati, four and a half from Columbus,

28:46

four from any and a half.

28:48

That's not that's not close to places.

28:49

But if in my mind it

28:51

was close enough.

28:53

Yeah, four hours.

28:56

That was That was how I convinced myself

28:58

to that we could go recruit all those areas and

29:00

fine guys, and but it was, you

29:03

know, it was it was just they had a beautiful

29:05

arena and that was it. And they were coming off I

29:07

think they had won one conference game that year,

29:10

and and again, you know, just I

29:12

think four or five winning seasons in the in

29:14

the NCAA history, So it had been a hard place

29:17

to win. And I don't know

29:19

who else they were looking at, but I went up

29:21

there interviewed, had probably the worst

29:23

experience ever. But oh

29:27

they they well they just brought me in

29:29

and and uh so I get in

29:31

and the the a d I

29:34

couldn't get a hold of him on the way in, and

29:37

uh we're supposed to meet and he's like, oh, well, go and

29:39

he finally picks up. I guess he was out gardening

29:41

or something. He's like, well, go eat at this restaurant

29:44

in town. It was only like one in town. So he sends

29:46

me to go eat at this restaurant. I go in

29:48

this restaurant and Italia, my wife and I eat,

29:52

and then we're supposed to go over to the arena. I go

29:54

to the arena. He shows me the nice

29:56

arena, takes us in the locker room.

29:58

The ceiling titles are missing, I mean the floors,

30:01

the carpet's frayed. I mean they can see the concrete

30:03

below it. The lockers are all rusted

30:05

and metal. I go

30:07

he puts me in a meeting and I'm

30:10

not going to mention names, but the women's coach at the time

30:12

and the women's coach at the time, that's who he wanted me to

30:14

meet with. He

30:16

tells me, he's like, don't take

30:18

this ship. He's like, whatever, he can't win

30:20

here, you know, it's impossible, blah blah blah.

30:23

Goes into this whole thing about what a terrible

30:25

job it is and then I should leave

30:27

that he's going to try to leave. And to his credit,

30:30

before I coached a game, he took

30:32

a high school job. He left LMU as

30:34

a head coach women's coach to take a

30:36

women's high school job. So he wasn't you

30:38

know, bsing me at the time, and

30:41

so so he tells me, don't do it.

30:43

So then I got to go and I got to check into

30:45

my hotel. Well, yes,

30:48

exactly what. So I go

30:50

to this hotel and this hotel

30:52

has no lobby and it's

30:54

like, if you need something, knocked on this door.

30:57

So I have to knock on this doors and

30:59

out door hotel. So I know a

31:03

hotel, Yeah, it actually has a motel. I knock

31:05

on the door and nobody answers. Knocking

31:07

on the door again. This guy opens the door. He's got

31:09

on a wife, beat her and tidy whities

31:12

and my wife. And

31:15

that was the hotel, the motel

31:17

manager. So we take us

31:19

to our I mean, it was just like, I mean,

31:22

I get up the next morning, they take me to a

31:24

nice breakfast at Shoney's uh

31:27

and uh and and that was the big spot

31:29

in town.

31:30

And so biscuits and gravy.

31:32

Question, yeah, biscuits.

31:34

I was just like at the time, I

31:36

was just so I wanted the opportunity. I

31:39

took the job.

31:40

What did your wife? What did your wife say?

31:43

She I'm not even into it. She

31:45

cried, I mean cried like when I told her I was

31:47

taking it like she was devastated

31:50

and really was probably cried

31:52

most of the first two years we were there. I told her at

31:54

the time, I said, look, I said,

31:57

this will probably either I'll be able to win

31:59

some games here and we'll be here for two years

32:01

and I'll leave, or I won't be able

32:03

to win and we'll just go back and go

32:05

to Vision one as an assistant or something and I'll

32:08

find a job. But like, we won't be here more than two years,

32:10

you know, just and I was there at thirteen,

32:12

so you know, it grew on

32:14

us. But but yeah,

32:16

at the time, I was like, oh my god, what

32:18

did I get myself into? You

32:21

move?

32:21

So did you buy a house? Do you rent? Can you rent

32:23

the house?

32:24

Like?

32:24

What was that?

32:26

We rented an apartment because

32:28

we couldn't afford. We had my house in high Point

32:30

and I went from making I

32:32

was making sixty three at high

32:35

Point. They offered me seventy five to stay

32:37

and I took fifty to go to LMU and

32:40

I negotiated to get to fifty, so I took a

32:42

pay cut and I still had my house

32:45

in high Point. And if

32:47

you remember about two thousand and eight, that

32:50

was when you know there there was

32:52

you know, the market crashed in

32:55

two thousand and eight, the recession, right, So yeah,

32:57

well this is two thousand and eight. So we

33:00

have a house. Our house got,

33:02

I mean it was I couldn't even tell you our house got. There

33:04

was a tree in the backyard, it got struck by lightning,

33:06

fell on our roof. We got a flood. The

33:09

one of the realtors flipped a Swiss so it was

33:11

a light it was it was actually the heat turned

33:13

off the heat in the winter, the pipes burst flooded the house.

33:15

I mean, it was like I could tell you. But

33:18

we got an apartment, and the apartment

33:21

it was so new, it had no stairs,

33:23

it wasn't even finished yet. So we're living in an unfinished

33:25

apartment. Like some of the dry

33:27

walls up, some of it's not like we're like the

33:29

first people in there. So needless

33:32

to say, I don't know how she stayed with me on this deal,

33:34

but we rented an apartment about

33:37

five minutes everything in harri Get's five minutes,

33:39

so five minutes from the school.

33:42

How long does it take you to build a winner?

33:45

The first year we got into five hundred, which was

33:48

you know, I mean where we were

33:50

a massive jump, you know, more

33:52

than doubled our wind total. Second

33:55

year, we win twenty for the first time in

33:57

school history at the NCAA level. Year

34:00

we started twenty two and oh and won

34:02

the championship regular season tournament, went to

34:04

the NCAA tournament. That kind of started

34:06

that ten year run where you know,

34:09

we we had I think we won about eighty eight eighty

34:11

nine percent of our games over that ten year window.

34:13

Okay, so you take over a job you've never

34:15

been a head coach before, and

34:18

you didn't even finish your career playing, right,

34:22

So when you first start

34:26

uh talking to your team meeting,

34:29

you know, are you're in meetings, how'd

34:32

you kind of like find your voice?

34:34

Like?

34:34

Who did you? Did you feel like you were

34:36

like Bart or you were like one of the other

34:38

coaches? What were you like in

34:40

those early stages?

34:42

That's interesting. I

34:44

probably I probably was an amalgam

34:46

of each of them, you know, Like you

34:49

know, Bart was probably like, you know, the

34:52

more like fire and brimstone, motivational,

34:54

Billerman was more like laid

34:57

back, and and then

34:59

you know, and and Russo was pretty

35:01

funny. I

35:03

probably tried to early on try

35:07

to be an amalgam of all of them because you're finding yourself,

35:09

right, Like, you got to know who you are right

35:12

like to address a team, to command a room,

35:14

to create buy in, like, you got

35:17

to figure out who you are, and ultimately

35:19

that's the key to the successes. You can't be

35:22

somebody else. But I probably early in

35:24

my career was trying to, you

35:26

know, have a little bit of humor, be a

35:28

little bit of fire and brimstone, and also

35:31

keep the mood the vibe a little lighter.

35:34

I don't know that how successful

35:37

I was at that early, but I think that's

35:39

one of the biggest things is you got to figure out,

35:41

like you know, at the end

35:43

of the day, coaching is leadership and leadership

35:45

whatever you're doing, whether it's coaching or any

35:48

other deal, Like your

35:50

number one job far and away is to

35:52

get the best out of everybody that you're in charge

35:54

of, right, Like, that's leadership. And there's

35:56

a lot of ways to do that. You

35:59

can do it through you know, fear,

36:01

you can do it through you know really

36:04

you know, being being super demanding. You

36:07

can do it through connection. And I

36:09

just found like for me, at the end of the day, the

36:12

best way I can lead is through connection.

36:15

Is to really try to connect with my guys

36:17

to really everish. But early on, I think

36:19

I was a little bit all over the place because I

36:21

didn't necessarily have myself

36:24

figured out yet.

36:27

How do you know if you're going to connect with

36:29

a kid when you're recruiting.

36:32

The hardest part I think

36:34

you have to you know, I always

36:36

recruit by trying to At

36:40

LMU, it became easy, and I'll say not easy,

36:42

but here's why it became a little bit easy. Like

36:44

when I look at somebody and you're recruiting

36:46

them, to me, the most important aspect

36:49

is their competitive character. Right, That's

36:51

probably the hardest thing to gauge in. Somebody

36:54

is truly like who they are as a competitor,

36:56

and so whether that's you

36:58

know, do they care deeply about the preparation

37:00

piece. Do they really care about you know, all the things

37:02

are going to prepare and to play they Are they a great

37:05

teammate? You know? Are they

37:07

coachable? Are they mentally

37:11

tough? Are they somebody that care

37:13

about that they played for stats? They play to win,

37:15

right, And there's a big difference in all those things.

37:19

At LMU, it became a little bit simpler

37:21

because we wound up

37:24

red shirting everybody. So we

37:26

found out right away, like if you know,

37:28

you're in this small town of four thousand people,

37:30

there's it's a dry county, so you can't even

37:32

drink if you wanted to, you got to go to Knoxville to

37:35

get a drink. There's no clubs, no bars,

37:38

there's barely any restaurants, and

37:41

you're gonna red shirt and likely not play

37:43

for your first couple of years. It

37:47

really quickly eliminated a lot of people

37:49

that you know, if you came to LMU, you were about

37:51

the right things right Like for us, you

37:54

were about basketball, you were about work,

37:56

You were about trying to be the best player you can be. You

37:59

were about winning. You want to be in a winning culture.

38:01

You wanted the relational piece, like you

38:03

wanted all these things that we could give you,

38:06

and you were okay with the

38:08

patients. And just a red shirt shows

38:10

a level of humility that a lot of people don't have, you

38:13

know, So to me, it was it got

38:15

a little easier as we built that program

38:17

to be able to discern who

38:19

exactly fit and who exactly did it. But

38:22

I think the best way is

38:24

to be completely transparent. I think people

38:27

recruit two ways. People recruit

38:30

to get the kid. Some

38:32

people recruit to make it work. Does

38:34

that make sense? Like, you know, if you recruiting

38:36

to get the kids, you're going to sell the kid.

38:39

You're selling, you're selling, you're selling, and

38:42

then you know and then try to figure it out and they

38:44

get there. If you're recruiting to make it work,

38:47

then you're actually going to be transparent upfront

38:49

and honest on the front end. Because

38:51

I felt like at LNU and

38:53

I feel like in Indiana State, the

38:56

only pathway to sustainable

38:58

success is continuity. If I'm

39:00

having to re engineer

39:03

my roster every year the way we play, we're

39:06

not going to be very good. So I

39:09

began I probably early on I recruited

39:11

to get the kid. I would just, hey, what do I got to do to get this

39:14

kid? Okay, we're gonna you know, yeah, we're gonna do this.

39:16

We're gonna do this, do this. I eventually

39:18

figured out that you've got to recruit to make

39:20

it work, and you've got to recruit. It's

39:23

got to be the right fit both ways. And if

39:25

it's not, you're going to be in this constant state of

39:27

churning it over year after year

39:29

after year. And that our pathway at

39:31

LMU, and our pathway in Indiana

39:34

State, quite frankly, is through

39:36

continuity. And the only way to sustainability

39:38

is because we can't even here, you know,

39:40

we can't go out and recruit a bunch of power

39:43

bud transfers and bring them in and reload

39:45

every year. Our pathway is

39:47

getting guys. You know, we call it

39:49

corporate knowledge building, corporate

39:51

knowledge, how we play, how we do things, Guys

39:54

in this system get better year over year over

39:56

year. If we pour into them for

39:58

a year and then we lose them year, you

40:00

know we're going to be starting at ground zero every single

40:03

year. You can't and the way we do things,

40:05

I don't think that's a model we could we could

40:07

have, so that would probably be to me. The biggest

40:10

thing is recruit to make

40:12

it work, not recruit to get the kid and be as

40:14

transparent and as open as possible about

40:16

what it's going to be like.

40:18

And you got to be willing to losing guys because of that,

40:20

you know, you got to be wanted absolutely.

40:23

Would you rather lose them in the

40:26

recruiting process or lose them

40:28

in the middle of the season when they you know what I mean? Or

40:31

you know, like right, I mean, like to me, if

40:33

you know you were going to lose that guy anyway?

40:35

And I tell my staff all the time, you're

40:38

never going to get fired for

40:40

missing out on good players. Ever, what

40:43

gets you fired is taking bad players

40:45

or bad fits, right, Like, You're

40:47

never going to get asked for, Man,

40:50

I missed on so and so, I missed on so and so we

40:52

didn't get this kid. You're going to

40:54

get fired because you took either

40:56

guys who didn't fit, wrong players, those things,

40:59

and when you look at it that way, you don't worry

41:01

as much about losing guys because that's not

41:03

really what's going to ultimately,

41:05

you know, you know, move your fate

41:07

either way. It's about the guys you take much more than

41:10

the guys you lose.

41:11

Year three or twenty two and zero. Why not

41:13

leave that year?

41:15

You know, there was there

41:17

was opportunities. The thing that LMU

41:20

did over my time was

41:23

they really made

41:26

the job better. Our chairman of the board

41:28

at LMU, Pete the Busk, you

41:31

know, he became like a over

41:33

the years, a father figure to me, and

41:36

they made that job to where if

41:38

I was going to leave, it was going to be really

41:41

hard for me to leave. And it

41:43

wasn't a one year deal, but they

41:45

every year came back and built it and

41:47

said we're gonna do this, We're gonna do this, we're gonna do

41:49

this. And so a job

41:51

that started on my base salary

41:54

was fifty thousand dollars finished where

41:56

my base salary was two hundred and fifty thousand dollars, and

41:58

we had one assistant a A and

42:01

all of a sudden we had three full time assistants and two gas

42:04

and our budget, which was the lowest in the league, became the

42:06

highest in the country. And we built

42:08

a nutrition room in a film room and and they

42:10

put all these things in and you know, so we had

42:12

the best resources, best job, and I had a what

42:15

equated to a lifetime contract, had a five year

42:17

rollover that at the end of the year. Uh,

42:20

they could fire me and pay me a million dollars, or

42:22

they could roll me over for five more years.

42:24

When did you When did you? When'd you buy a house? Uh?

42:28

After year three? After year three?

42:30

When I when when we had that success and

42:32

I was like, let's get out of this apartment and

42:35

we moved into a house and it was just

42:37

the right time, and you

42:40

know it was, uh it turned into,

42:42

you know, for me, a dream

42:44

job. At that level, I felt like, uh, you

42:47

know, it was kind of like, you know, Camelot, you told

42:49

me I had I had a great president, great a d chair

42:52

of the board, completely invested, and I've

42:54

never been somebody who you

42:56

know, I didn't feel like, oh man, I got to go to vision

42:58

one to make something happen,

43:00

you know, or I got to validate myself at this level,

43:04

you know, like we're talking like I'm we're coaching

43:06

against great coaches in that league. You know Bart's in

43:08

there. You got a bunch of really good coaches inside of

43:11

the South Atlantic Conference and Ben McCullum

43:13

and all these guys. You're going against Jim

43:16

Crutchfield, and there's great coaches. And I

43:18

felt completely fulfilled there over

43:20

over that tenure, and they just kept making the

43:22

job better and better and better every

43:24

single year. So while I had some Division

43:27

I head coaching opportunities, I

43:29

never felt like it was the right one for

43:31

me to leave. There was one, you

43:34

know, I was a Division one head coach for one day, but then

43:36

the chancellor came in the next day and changed

43:40

his mind and overturned the committee and the ad

43:42

and they hired somebody else, and so

43:44

I was. That was after the two thousand

43:47

eighteen seventeen

43:50

season. After seventeen whoe is

43:52

that? I

43:55

like? As I say it now, it was Arkansas

43:57

Little Rock Chase Konk who had hired

43:59

Chris Beard from Division two. Chase

44:02

had hired Chris,

44:05

they had success left, they hired the associated

44:08

coach their two years, they moved on from

44:10

him, and Chase brought me in

44:12

a little Rock, and they just really clicked

44:14

with him, connected with him, interviewed

44:17

with him, and the committee got

44:20

hired. And then the chancellor who I'd met with,

44:22

came back and said that they were

44:24

going to go a different route. So

44:27

that was.

44:27

That, that's crazy. The

44:30

COVID year was your best

44:32

team? Right?

44:35

Yeah? Yeah, I think so. I mean with

44:37

in a row when COVID hit, we had won thirty

44:39

two straight, so yeah, it was a pretty good team.

44:42

Where were you? Where were you when when

44:44

everything ends?

44:46

So we we we

44:48

had beat Queens in the tournament championship

44:51

on that Sunday in front of a packed house at Furman,

44:53

which is where we did our tournament, you

44:56

know, and Monday

44:58

Tuesday, like there was crazy because

45:00

that Sunday, I mean, nobody's even talking

45:02

about COVID and we're in a packed house at Furman playing

45:05

for a conference championship. Well, Monday

45:07

Tuesday, we give the guys off, we come back Wednesday.

45:09

Wednesday, we start hearing

45:12

about that, you know, they may that

45:14

they put out something that they were going to restrict

45:18

attendance at the games, you

45:20

know, because of COVID. I was like, that's weird because

45:22

you know, but you didn't really know. Well,

45:25

Wednesday night, I'm at dinner

45:28

with my wife and kids,

45:31

and I think that was that. Wednesday night

45:34

was when go baar and all that stuff happens,

45:36

and they the game, and I remember

45:38

sitting on my wife, I said, I said, we're not going to play. They're gonna.

45:40

They're gonna. I didn't think they would cancer them.

45:43

I thought they would postpone it, but I didn't

45:45

know what they would do. So Thursday

45:47

morning, we're on these calls and

45:50

they're like, no, we're going to proceed right now, we're

45:52

proceeding. I was like, are we one hundred

45:54

percent? You know, at the moment, and everything

45:56

seemed like it was a go. So I know the

45:58

guys in the locker room, I'm on

46:00

the practice floor. We're practicing on

46:03

Thursday. We play Saturday in the first round.

46:05

You know, we're uh, you know, thirty two

46:07

wins in a row, number one seed in the NCAA tournament, playing

46:10

at home. And my associate

46:12

D comes out and where

46:15

he's like like I could see emotion of me. So I

46:17

kind of slide over to the sideline. He's

46:20

like, they canceled the NCAA tournament.

46:22

I was like, they postponed it to

46:24

win and he's like, no, they they've canceled

46:27

it. And I looked

46:29

at him, like and I

46:31

couldn't even, like, I mean, believe

46:34

it. And I had to. I stopped practice

46:37

and I brought the guys in and he's like, he's

46:39

I'm like, it's the season over. He's like, it's over. Like

46:41

they're not going to replay. It's done. And

46:44

I just like, I mean, like about like taking

46:46

the breath out of you. And I brought the team

46:48

in and I we had

46:51

you know, four seniors on that team, and guys that have

46:53

been close. I mean we've been to multiple final

46:55

fours, you know with this group and had

46:58

a group that, like I said, you know, thirty two straight wins,

47:00

and you know, guys

47:03

were just really emotional. I mean everybody was started

47:05

crying. I taught

47:07

the team. I went in my office and I cried

47:09

for about ten minutes. I really did, and uh,

47:12

I was just so sad for everybody involved. And

47:15

then I went back to the locker room and

47:17

I was like, we're going to go out tonight and uh,

47:20

you know, celebrate, you know, before this all.

47:23

And and so that Thursday night we went out and

47:25

I brought the whole staff and Athletic Farmers

47:27

staff, and I don't know what we spent, but

47:30

it was a lot of money. Uh, you know, and

47:32

uh and and and we just had a

47:34

great night together. And then the next

47:36

day I had to do individual

47:38

meetings and the campus by noon was gone. It

47:41

was it was ghost

47:44

What goes down by New Riday?

47:46

What was life like in small

47:49

town Tennessee during COVID?

47:53

Uh? Well, Tennessee was always

47:55

trying to be open before everybody

47:57

else, so you know, there was you

47:59

know, but it wasn't

48:02

you know, it was a weird time like there was

48:04

there was you know, My wife and

48:06

I would go and we would walk the campus.

48:09

The campus is beautiful, Lincolnore's campus

48:11

one of the most scenic campuses in the country. There's

48:13

all these rolling hills and it's

48:16

just an amazing place. We'd go on these four

48:18

mile walks every day. She and I. You

48:22

know, everything was was shut down, so

48:25

we just you know, going and and

48:27

and grocery shopping. But it

48:29

was almost like you go from this pressure cooker

48:32

and then it was just like,

48:34

I mean, it was just incredible and

48:37

you just you know, you're really not

48:39

going to work you're staying at home. I

48:42

got to zoom with some really good people. I mean,

48:44

you were Its almost like a it was like

48:46

a sabbatical in the middle

48:48

of a Yeah, I mean it's almost surreal even to

48:50

talk about. It was like a sabbatic.

48:51

No, it's it's it's interesting because obviously,

48:54

you know, like, look, you guys had a chance to win a national championship,

48:57

and there's so many things.

49:00

I mean, Santague State that they had an incredible

49:03

team. My brother,

49:06

my brothers, well it used

49:08

to was a Grand Grand Canne Last three

49:10

and he was a Dreary college and

49:12

they were they were the best D two team,

49:14

the women's team. Right, they didn't get a chance. Molly

49:18

didn't get a chance to compete. But like

49:21

you got a chance to be a dad, husband,

49:26

you had to be home, Like there was a

49:28

there was I kind of wish there

49:30

was like two weeks every year we could do that. I

49:32

just like just two weeks.

49:33

I do too.

49:34

It It was I agree, because I

49:36

don't know, you're the same way, Like our lives are so

49:38

regimented. You know, we're up early, we're going here, we

49:40

got this. There's just a to do list. You're knocking

49:42

it out. You got all these things, irons in

49:44

the fire, and then it was like nothing,

49:47

and it was like, oh my god, like this

49:49

is actually like it

49:51

was. I mean it

49:54

was. It was a terrible,

49:56

terrible time. But in terms of like re

49:59

energize, we're getting to really get

50:01

down to what's important, like the amount of family

50:04

time you spend, the amount of time you spend with your wife getting

50:06

up in the day and be like, hey, what do you want.

50:08

We're going to go for a walk. You know, we're gonna

50:10

have some meals together. You know who's going

50:12

to cook what? You know? Watch

50:14

some TV. I remember when The

50:17

Last Dance came out that was.

50:19

Literally everybody watched. It was like, oh my god, give

50:21

me somebody give me work. I gotta wait till

50:23

next week. You know what reminded me of so this

50:26

is uh when I

50:28

the Last Dance thing reminded me when I was in Russia

50:31

playing my

50:35

wife at the time and I we

50:37

we would get a cassette tape with Survivor.

50:41

Remember when Survivor first came out this two

50:43

thousand and we

50:46

would try and only watch it, like watch

50:48

one a week. We try like we're only going to watch

50:50

one a week. This just and I remember just like,

50:52

oh man, you sure we don't want to watch the

50:54

second one?

50:56

Sure?

50:56

Like now Last Dance, you didn't have a chance to

50:58

watch the second one. But still it

51:00

was the same idea of just give me. Oh I love

51:03

it and taste so good. I just need more, give.

51:05

Me more games more, because you had nothing.

51:07

You had nothing new, I mean, nobody was. It

51:09

was like it was like every Best Game

51:12

seven. Like you literally built your day

51:14

around Last Dance coming on, like, oh what are

51:16

we gonna you know, let's finish dinner here, do

51:18

this, we can be at the TV. And it was.

51:20

It was incredible. It was incredible, And like

51:22

I said, it seems like a just a whole

51:25

you know, it seems like it was so long ago, but

51:27

it really you know, obviously it wasn't. And uh,

51:30

you know, Tennessee opened up pretty quickly. But that

51:33

was a great time, uh from a

51:35

standpoint of you know, being

51:37

able to just reconnect and and and really

51:39

get back to like the things that are most important

51:42

in your life. And like you said, it'd be cool to have

51:44

a two week where hey, everything shuts

51:46

down, there's nothing and just you lock

51:48

in and to it. Because it really does. It

51:51

does give you life.

51:53

Uh what was that next year?

51:55

Life for it? Yeah? I one more year at Lincoln,

51:57

So I had one more year. My last year at Lincoln was

51:59

was twenty twenty one.

52:00

Did you guys have crowds that year?

52:03

Very limited? Very limited crowds? You

52:05

know, you sat like spread out in the baseline.

52:08

We had, you know, games canceled,

52:11

we had, you know, it was it was like everybody, I

52:13

mean, you'd be playing, you know you and it

52:15

just shows how funny it is like as coaches,

52:18

you know, we're scouting, we're watching all these hours

52:20

of film and going over this opponent. You'd be playing,

52:22

Hey we're gonna play uh so and so oh

52:24

wait they can't play. All right, let's play this team. We

52:26

want to play this team today. Like no scout,

52:29

you know, like you're just you're just drawing

52:31

stuff out of a hat. You know, like you'd play

52:33

teams that you didn't even know you were playing.

52:35

Team would cancel, you'd call somebody be

52:37

like, hey, you know, do you want to play today at

52:40

seven or tomorrow? Oh yeah, we'll play, you

52:42

know, and and all right, let's do this. And so

52:44

we we kind of Hodgepodge of season together.

52:46

We got you know, we

52:49

we had we had a couple of shutdowns, and

52:51

then we had one at the you know, our

52:53

campus had an outbreak towards the end of our

52:55

season, and we got we had

52:58

a you know, epidemiology

53:00

is running our COVID team at LMU,

53:02

and you know, we had exposures,

53:04

and so he shut us down with exposures.

53:09

It became a whole thing. You

53:11

know, we wound up not being able to play our

53:13

last two regular season games. And

53:15

then you know, our our commissioner

53:18

at the conference, who's

53:20

you know whatever. Trying

53:22

to be nice on the podcast, but yeah, the South

53:24

Atlantic Conference commissioner is not

53:26

the brightest guy in the world. They they

53:29

knock us out of the tournament.

53:31

So because they said, we you know, our clock

53:33

started whenever. And so we wind

53:35

up even though we didn't have a positive, we had a shut

53:37

down because of the exposures. They

53:39

shut down like ten teams on our campus at

53:41

the same time. So we wind

53:44

up going into the NCAA tournament the next year.

53:46

We haven't played in twenty six days,

53:50

we haven't played a game, and we're playing in

53:52

the NCAA Tournament in the first

53:54

round, and and so

53:57

we we win, we win our

54:01

region, go to the Elite

54:03

eight, win the Elite eight game, and

54:05

then we lose on a tip

54:07

out. We're up to with

54:10

seven seconds left, ball out of bounds,

54:13

They miss, ball gets batted, and Zach

54:15

Tucson, from about thirty feet maybe

54:18

a little longer, knocks it in

54:20

over Devin Whitfield at the buzzer

54:22

to lose by one of the lots are playing in the National Championship

54:25

game, and you know, all that

54:27

stuff about me coming to Nastate had come out already,

54:29

and it was just a that was just a devastating

54:32

you know that that was because of the

54:34

circumstances, was worse the National Championship

54:36

loss or any other loss, just you know,

54:38

because everybody knew I was leading. It was just such a devastating

54:41

way for it to And it would have been poetic

54:43

to having the National Championship because at that point,

54:46

you know, it's over one way or the other. It's the last

54:48

game on the deal, and you know, and

54:50

that group to get within a millisecond

54:53

of the National Championship just shows you

54:55

know, I mean to come off with twenties five to twenty six.

54:57

Day break and play in the NCAA tournament.

55:00

You're playing for your life. Like it was

55:02

incredible. It doesn't, I mean, you know,

55:04

it just stiff. You would never think of.

55:07

Okay, So how did the Indiana State job

55:10

come to be?

55:12

So the the week that

55:15

we were supposed to be in the conference tournament, we

55:19

weren't. Uh So we were practicing

55:21

and you know, that's all we can do. And

55:23

I get a I got

55:26

an email from a search firm guy

55:28

just you know, hey, you know there's a Missouri

55:31

value school that's you know, probably going to open.

55:33

Would you be interested? And you

55:35

know, I sent it to my agent. I didn't know, you know, at what

55:37

school it was or anything, and so I just pour it

55:39

on and uh the hem

55:42

wound up coming back and saying that, you know, it was

55:44

Indiana State. And I talked to the

55:46

search firm guy, but they weren't at the time one hundred

55:48

percent sure what was going to happen. So we just

55:50

had a conversation and

55:52

you know, kind of he spent an hour just trying to get to know

55:54

me and whatever. Well, Indiana

55:58

State uh, playing

56:00

in their conference tournament. They lost on a Saturday,

56:04

and I interviewed with

56:08

them on Sunday that next

56:10

day after when they had decided to make the change.

56:14

And then I wound up,

56:17

you know, on that Tuesday, you

56:19

know, going in and signing an

56:22

MoU up in Lexington, Kentucky,

56:24

and I met them, you know there.

56:27

It was just but you know,

56:29

it's funny. I got I got about ten minutes

56:31

from the hotel to go meet with them to sign the

56:33

contract, and you know, I was

56:35

driving up there with my wife and I looked at her and I

56:37

was like, I was like, I don't want to do this. I don't want to

56:39

go to dannea state. And she was like, all

56:42

right, let's go home. So we literally

56:44

exited off the interstate and started

56:47

driving back to Harrigan. And I

56:49

called my old a d who

56:51

was with me at LMU, who wasn't there at the time.

56:54

And I was.

56:55

Like, the one who was gardening

56:57

or the next one.

56:59

No, the gardening one retired. He's

57:01

a good dude as well, but he retired

57:04

after it was the guy who replaced the

57:06

gardening guy. And so and

57:08

so I'm driving back and I call

57:11

Matt Green. I'm like, I said, Matt, I said,

57:13

I'm you know, I'm turning the job down I'm driving

57:15

home, you know, when I

57:17

just was like, it doesn't feel right, you

57:19

know, I think I'm going to stay at LMU. And he

57:22

taught to me for about fifteen or twenty minutes as

57:24

I was driving home about why

57:26

it was the right thing for me to do. If he had said, hey,

57:28

no, I agree you should, but he did

57:31

it, and and so

57:33

I spent about twenty minutes, fifteen twenty minutes talking

57:35

to him, and then he convinced me to take

57:37

it. So then I had to turn back around and

57:40

I sent Indiana State a texta

57:42

just saying, hey, I'm running late. And

57:45

so I got there a little a little later. And you

57:48

know, it was a combination of things. At the end of the day, you

57:51

know, LMU, I had a new president, new ad,

57:55

and the president and I, you

57:57

know, weren't great. I thought

57:59

the you know, the commissioner

58:02

of the league was you know, like I said, you

58:04

know, that whole thing with the COVID dealer had rubbed me the wrong

58:06

way. The president

58:09

wasn't he wasn't a bad guy at all. He was not athletic

58:12

guy. And we had a new

58:14

a D. So it just felt like if

58:16

I was going to do something it was the right time to do

58:18

it. And then the chance to be in the Missouri

58:20

Valley, to me from D two was a jump that

58:22

a lot of people don't get to make. You know, the normal jump

58:25

is, you know, you go D two to a low

58:27

major, low major, you do well, you go to

58:29

the Missouri Valley and then you know,

58:31

and so I was going to skip some steps.

58:34

And I knew how good a league the Valley was

58:36

in terms of the competition, the coaches, like at

58:39

the time, I mean, you know, you had Porter Mojor,

58:41

you had Ben Jacobson, Darren de Breeze, Bryant World.

58:43

I mean, I knew all those coaches and

58:45

how good they were, and it was like, man like

58:47

how you know, like that would be just

58:50

an amazing challenge and a place that in

58:52

Indiana State a lot like LMU, people said it was impossible

58:54

to win at you know, when I talked to people said, oh, you know, you know,

58:56

you can't win at a high level there. You

58:58

know, it's not you know, and and

59:01

you know, so that was kind of the deal. But I knew that

59:03

you know, you know, Greg

59:05

and his staff that you know, I was replacing

59:07

it had done a good job and they'd certainly

59:10

want something, and so I didn't.

59:12

I didn't look at it as bleak as other people did. But

59:14

that was kind of the the caveat

59:16

of coming was the opportunity to compete against

59:19

you know, these coaches in an unbelievable

59:21

league and one of the best mid major leagues in the country,

59:24

you know, bypass some steps. Really challenged

59:26

myself and then Charrard,

59:28

who was my athletic director here. You

59:30

know, the thing I told us is that it had to be a work environment like

59:32

the one I was in, where I was empowered and support every

59:34

single day. And he, you know, was

59:37

he said that absolutely, you know, we'll give you

59:39

the freedom to do it the way you want to do it. We

59:42

won't micromanage and and you

59:44

know it'll it'll work or it won't, but but you don't have to

59:46

worry about that. And so once

59:48

we kind of came on all those terms, it just seemed

59:50

like the right well even though you know, it

59:52

wasn't really a bump paywise, it

59:55

was a small bump, but not you know, not.

59:56

Really that lifetime deal

59:59

wasn't about money.

59:59

It was no, it's not about

1:00:01

money. It was about the chance to pursue

1:00:03

growth and challenge myself and

1:00:06

see if I could do it at this level.

1:00:08

Basically, I was leaving something

1:00:10

I was incredibly comfortable. I have a natural aversion

1:00:12

to change, Like that's just how I'm wired. I

1:00:15

get very comfortable, I like, you know, And I had poured

1:00:18

myself into that place. We had an amazing

1:00:20

culture, a championship DNA. You

1:00:23

know, we had just come up short of the

1:00:26

national championship on a buzzer beater. We

1:00:28

had great teams coming in the pipe. I mean since

1:00:30

I've been gone the

1:00:32

previous two years. My assistant as the head

1:00:35

coach, I think he was fifty eight and ten

1:00:37

his first two years and won back to back regular

1:00:39

season championships. And they're in position to do it again

1:00:41

this year for a third shit year with a lot of guys.

1:00:43

And that's with most of our better players

1:00:46

come in Indiana State, So you

1:00:48

know, that's with the guys who were scout team guys when

1:00:50

I was there. So it was instead

1:00:52

of be successful, it was just the challenge

1:00:54

and the opportunity that was

1:00:57

presented here to do it at this length.

1:00:58

What is that like to bring

1:01:02

your guys up a level? But

1:01:04

also there's some guys

1:01:06

that you can't bring up a

1:01:09

level. What's that process?

1:01:12

Oh it's hard. I mean, it's tough. You

1:01:15

you want to you know, I probably,

1:01:17

in hindsight, you know, like I

1:01:19

probably undervalued the

1:01:22

cultural piece I could have maybe, you know, probably

1:01:24

could have probably brought a couple more with me. But

1:01:27

I also didn't want to leave LMU depleted. Ether

1:01:29

it was kind of a feel, you know, I

1:01:31

didn't. I love that place. I love it, Lincoln

1:01:33

Memorial. We had guys that I mean, my hope

1:01:35

originally was they were all going to come back, but a couple

1:01:37

of guys were like, we're transferring

1:01:39

to Division one now. If you don't

1:01:42

want us, we'll go somewhere else. But you know, so

1:01:44

I was like, all right, I got a you know, two of our

1:01:47

All league players. Last year we won twenty three games

1:01:49

where you know, LM you guys, can I see

1:01:51

a McCauley and Cam Henry are two All Conference players

1:01:53

were LM you guys in the Missouri

1:01:56

Valley. So you know,

1:01:58

it was it was it was tough com stations

1:02:01

with players because more people wanted to come than we

1:02:03

could take. Like I said, hindsight, being

1:02:05

twenty twenty, I probably would have taken more because

1:02:08

I think the hardest part when you take a

1:02:10

new job is you know that you can't

1:02:12

transpose culture and that you know you

1:02:14

have to start from scratch. And the more

1:02:16

guys you have that understand you and understand

1:02:18

what winning looks like and understand

1:02:20

the way you operate, the better

1:02:23

because you know that

1:02:25

that year was funky. And recruiting anyway, if you remember,

1:02:28

like when I got the job, I

1:02:30

couldn't go recruit zoom and campus.

1:02:32

Yeah, nobody come to campus. It was remote. Everything

1:02:35

was we were doing FaceTime, driving in golf

1:02:37

carts of

1:02:39

I mean, zooms and FaceTime. That's

1:02:41

how we recruited. And so most

1:02:43

of the people that I recruited because I took over a

1:02:45

team in April that had two players

1:02:47

on the roster. So most of the people

1:02:49

that I recruited I never met until

1:02:51

they came to summer school. I had

1:02:54

never even had an in person cut or seen them play

1:02:56

live, like I just saw everything was on the film.

1:02:58

So it was the most awkward thing.

1:03:02

And you know, in terms of uh,

1:03:05

yeah, I mean just like you don't you know, the whole recruiting

1:03:07

process that I value was completely

1:03:10

opposite of what I'm

1:03:13

used to, and so these people there was there was a number,

1:03:15

more than a handful. Was first time meeting them in person

1:03:18

was coming to summer school and the first time seeing

1:03:20

them play was our first practice.

1:03:22

When did you know this group was going

1:03:24

to be different, this group is going to be special?

1:03:29

Felt it in the summer, just

1:03:32

the vibe you can get. I mean, you

1:03:34

know, when you're recruiting, you

1:03:37

know you have hopes for what your team

1:03:39

could be, how the pieces will fit. But

1:03:42

I would say there's two types of forecasters, right,

1:03:44

those that don't know and those that don't know. They don't know,

1:03:47

so you hope you have an opinion, but

1:03:50

you're not, you know, you know, and then

1:03:52

watching them play

1:03:55

the portal is the harder one because you

1:03:57

you know, you feel like you can get the tangible things.

1:04:00

But it's the cultural one that's harder because it's like speed

1:04:02

dating. You know, you go from this process so high

1:04:04

school guys and now you got this short runway

1:04:07

with the transfers to figure out, you

1:04:09

know, does it fit. But you know, like I said,

1:04:11

the intangibl piece is the harder part. But

1:04:13

when they got here in the summer, I

1:04:16

felt like we knocked it out the Park with

1:04:18

the transfers in terms of okay,

1:04:20

yeah, they're good, but they

1:04:23

also fit us culturally. We got that part

1:04:25

right, and we knew

1:04:28

it was a weird time because we lost eighty three

1:04:30

percent of our scoring from last year. We

1:04:32

only had four scholarship guys back on

1:04:34

the whole team because we had six we

1:04:37

had six or I guess five scholarship gos back. We

1:04:39

had six seniors that were true COVID

1:04:41

seniors that had exhausted the COVID

1:04:43

year, and then we had two guys that didn't

1:04:45

play much who transfer. So we had

1:04:48

eight new scholarship players for high school,

1:04:50

four transfers, and it was like,

1:04:52

you know, we had our three leading scorers all graduated,

1:04:55

you know, Cavasier and Cooper Nice and cam

1:04:57

Henry so and five our top eight. So

1:05:00

it was like but you could tell

1:05:02

early on, you know, Isaiah Swope and

1:05:05

Ryan Conwell and and those guys

1:05:07

fit and and then the guys who were returning,

1:05:09

the Robbie Abulo's, that Julian Larry, the Jason

1:05:11

Kents, you know, their growth and the system

1:05:14

was going to be significant. And you

1:05:16

know, and and so I could see

1:05:18

in the summer that if we could stay healthy. Uh,

1:05:21

the guys liked each other. We got the culture piece right.

1:05:23

Uh, there was good chemistry. The pieces fit

1:05:25

together on the court well. They amplified

1:05:28

each other versus got in each other's way, which

1:05:30

was nice. And we had talent, but it was talent the

1:05:32

compent each other.

1:05:34

How do you build that relationship piece when you

1:05:36

have guys coming in and out of the portal.

1:05:39

Yeah, I think you have to

1:05:41

be really committed to it. It's something

1:05:44

that I think when

1:05:46

you're you know people, you

1:05:48

know, I have, you know whatever, a number

1:05:50

of assistants that are head coaches now at the Division two

1:05:52

level, and you know, we'd always talk about,

1:05:54

you know, in the transition, what are the biggest

1:05:56

things you know and and and being

1:05:59

a head coach? And I would always tell them number

1:06:01

one. And if you get number one wrong,

1:06:04

the rest will be irrelevant. But is evaluation

1:06:06

right? You got to be able to evaluate talent.

1:06:08

If you recruit bad players, everything else

1:06:11

is irrelevant. You've got to get the

1:06:13

right talent and the right

1:06:15

type of people. And then the second

1:06:17

piece to me is

1:06:20

you've got to be able to build relationships

1:06:22

with guys. And it's so much a coaching well,

1:06:24

beyond x's and o's, is those

1:06:27

one on one conversations, those group conversations

1:06:29

commanding a room. You

1:06:31

know, guys, psyche, the mentality your

1:06:34

team like that to me is so much

1:06:36

more important than

1:06:38

the x'es and o's, you know,

1:06:40

in terms of being successful as a head coach,

1:06:43

is your ability to have relationships

1:06:45

with guys that can withstand

1:06:48

the burden the truth right that you can be honest

1:06:50

with people and it doesn't

1:06:52

you know, they don't get offended or insulted

1:06:55

because they know that that there's a genuine relationship

1:06:57

there. And so you just got to be really intentional

1:07:00

about it. And you've got to be in recruiting really

1:07:02

intentional about hey, look, this is what we're

1:07:04

about. And if you want this, this is not your place.

1:07:07

Like hey, in our system, you know, the five

1:07:09

is the hub. If you want the ball in your hands all the time, probably

1:07:11

not going to be what you want. You know, we're never going

1:07:13

to pay a guy in an nil more

1:07:16

than our returning our better returning players. So

1:07:18

if you want that, you know, I mean there are certain things that are you

1:07:20

know through lines that that man, you know,

1:07:22

it's not going to be. You know

1:07:25

this, if you want to come here. But I think you have

1:07:27

that transparency and

1:07:29

then you have the intent day to day

1:07:31

of like, all right, this is who we're going to be.

1:07:33

So that's your really you know, you're not gonna pay anybody

1:07:35

more than a return.

1:07:38

Yeah. If if if we have a returner

1:07:41

that like our better returners,

1:07:44

to me, that's the best the

1:07:46

ability to bring guys back. That

1:07:48

corporate knowledge is far greater

1:07:51

than going out and getting a new

1:07:53

guy. Now, if we got a guy

1:07:55

like Isaiah Swope for Ryan conwell, like we

1:07:58

knew, you know, our market was going to be set by a and

1:08:01

we weren't going to pay in an nil somebody

1:08:04

incoming more than we're going to pay

1:08:06

our best returning player.

1:08:07

Yeah, I'll give you. I'll give you a stat that that

1:08:09

will help you in the future. In the NFL.

1:08:12

The NFL, the hit

1:08:14

rate on free agents in the NFL,

1:08:16

where they have all this tape and they have you know, they

1:08:19

have your college shape whatever, is like thirty three

1:08:21

percent, whereas

1:08:23

in the draft in the first

1:08:25

round it's actually in the

1:08:28

between fifty five and sixty percent

1:08:30

in terms of hit rate.

1:08:31

I think, right, a great point.

1:08:33

So it's it's you know, right,

1:08:35

It's like what you said, evaluate and

1:08:38

then uh and then

1:08:40

you know, build on what you have, but

1:08:42

build on builthough I have because the grass.

1:08:45

Is I agree. Well,

1:08:47

that's the thing. People. Look, if you're

1:08:49

if you're selling nil to people, you ask

1:08:51

people to donate nil. It's a handle

1:08:54

lot easier to say, look, you saw this guy, you know

1:08:56

how good he is. This is what it's

1:08:58

going to cost. You know, we think to

1:09:00

retain and that's kind of the way it is. Now. You've got to build your

1:09:02

collective. You know, everybody else know what's it going

1:09:04

to you know, how do we keep the team together? And but

1:09:07

I think you know, guys will stay

1:09:10

if there's a relationship, if they feel like the system

1:09:13

you know you're there. They're getting to do what they do

1:09:15

and do what they do best all the time. But you're right,

1:09:18

I mean, the the free agent piece

1:09:20

is so overvalued of going out and you

1:09:22

know, getting this guy, getting this guy, getting this guy, and

1:09:25

thinking that all your problems are going to be solved

1:09:28

in the portal. Because everybody says this,

1:09:31

they say, well, just get old and stales

1:09:33

and I get that. To me, where

1:09:36

people miss the boat is what about

1:09:38

getting old together? Yes, what about

1:09:41

shared experiences? What about

1:09:43

you know, what about those things when you go through

1:09:45

things together with guys that give

1:09:48

you, like your team to Oklahoma State, like your shared

1:09:50

experiences over many years.

1:09:52

I'll give you. I'll give you an example. Okay, so one we went

1:09:54

through that loss to you. Right fast

1:09:58

forward a year and a half later, we're in NCAA

1:10:00

tournament. We're in the sweet sixteen. We're playing Seaton

1:10:02

Hall, and we had a

1:10:04

set called cyclone we'd run in our first

1:10:06

two years. We never practiced

1:10:09

it, didn't put it in at all. And

1:10:12

the way they were guarding our ball screen ball

1:10:14

screens were playing against Tommy

1:10:17

Amaker and Seaton Hall in Syracuse, and

1:10:20

I turned. I turned to Brian mount

1:10:22

Naught. He was now a coach at Wasaw High School and

1:10:24

outside of Tulsa, and I was like, hey, we

1:10:26

should run cyclone, Like all right, let's do it. So we

1:10:29

just called it and then we come over to the bench and

1:10:32

Sean Sutton started again like office like,

1:10:34

y' all run cyclone, Like yeah,

1:10:37

okay, just like we all knew

1:10:39

it all worked and we'd all kind of been

1:10:41

through it. Like but by the way, that's also that's the whole

1:10:44

college experience, which where I

1:10:47

do think we're we're diminishing all right,

1:10:49

last thing, because I know you're busy. You gotta go.

1:10:52

You guys had been zooming along,

1:10:55

You get ranked, and

1:10:57

then you lose. What's

1:10:59

the it's challenged like from

1:11:02

like you said, yes, you've

1:11:04

been building towards this, but this is a new team. And

1:11:08

whatever your own internal thoughts

1:11:12

were on how good they could be, you kind of

1:11:14

got everybody's attention nationally.

1:11:16

But now you lose, so all

1:11:19

that other work you had done gets called into

1:11:21

question. What's it like now to try and get him

1:11:23

back on Trent?

1:11:25

Well, it goes back to that that number one thing

1:11:27

of you know, relationships

1:11:30

and psyche. I think when something

1:11:32

like this happens, losing

1:11:34

losing happens, right. I mean, you're in a highly competitive

1:11:37

deal. Sometimes you wins down to lose. Losing

1:11:40

the way we did shouldn't happen in

1:11:42

terms of not being ready to compete, not

1:11:45

playing together, right, And I told the guys

1:11:47

this, look

1:11:49

when you hit adversity, uh and

1:11:52

and it's one loss, but it's adversity

1:11:55

because it's February fifteenth and

1:11:57

all that it can

1:11:59

be an albatro us and and and

1:12:01

completely break you down and bring

1:12:03

you down because you disconnect, you go your separate ways,

1:12:06

and that becomes you know the

1:12:08

what what splinters you? Or you

1:12:11

know, it can be a springboard. Right, we

1:12:13

just won nine in a row. We weren't playing

1:12:15

great the last few games,

1:12:18

but we were winning because we were fighting

1:12:20

and competing and we were getting honestly a little bit of luck

1:12:22

in there too, right, you know what three spins,

1:12:25

how the play goes in, So you know I told

1:12:27

them going in, you know, uh,

1:12:29

we're playing with fire and and we

1:12:31

got burned on Tuesday night. It

1:12:35

can be a springboard if

1:12:37

it reminds us how much we need each other. It

1:12:39

can be a springboard if it gets

1:12:42

us back to being fully locked

1:12:44

in in the tente of the details of the game. Uh.

1:12:46

It can be a springboard if it eliminates any

1:12:49

kind of complacency or entitlement about

1:12:51

you know what we deserve what we're owed, because you

1:12:54

know, entitled teams win nothing, and

1:12:57

understanding that every single time you step you

1:13:00

know, games are decided in between the four lines on

1:13:02

the wood. It doesn't matter what

1:13:05

you're ranked, or what social media says or what

1:13:07

somebody projects you like it's decided

1:13:10

on the wood in between those four lines, and when

1:13:12

you get out there, nothing can save you.

1:13:14

Like it's in the arena. Out there, you're putting yourself

1:13:17

out there, and you've got to be ready to meet those

1:13:19

challenges and the last pieces you

1:13:21

know, yes, the ranking and the

1:13:24

exposure and the expectations. But I'll

1:13:26

say this, like, if you can handle

1:13:28

expectations and performing under

1:13:30

pressure and those things, then

1:13:33

you're not designed to be a champion anybody. You're not designed

1:13:35

to be elite anything you do, because if you're elite,

1:13:38

part of being elite is you got to deal with expectations

1:13:41

and pressure and people you

1:13:43

know, saying this judgment, all those

1:13:45

things. If

1:13:47

you can't handle those things and perform,

1:13:50

you're not designed to be elite. And it's

1:13:53

a reminder that we talk a lot

1:13:55

about there are cultures.

1:13:58

There are winning cultures and cultures where you can

1:14:00

win, and I think they're very different.

1:14:03

If you're in a culture, a winning culture, you're

1:14:06

a weather vane for results, right, Like,

1:14:08

you know, hey, we won, everybody's fired up.

1:14:10

We lost. We're practicing at five am.

1:14:13

You know, we're pissed we won. There's

1:14:15

music playing, Guys, are all adapted, they're up, you

1:14:17

lose. The whole vibe changes. Right. In

1:14:20

a culture where you can win, you

1:14:23

have processes and standards

1:14:25

and principles and values in place

1:14:28

that allow you to weather storms, allow

1:14:31

you to handle success, and allow you to

1:14:33

respond appropriately and move on. So

1:14:35

we'll see the goal is to build a culture

1:14:37

where you can win. I think we've

1:14:40

done that here, But like I tell

1:14:42

them, you know, don't don't tell me,

1:14:44

show me. So we'll see tomorrow night

1:14:46

in Carbondale and how we respond.

1:14:48

I love our locker room. I love the character the guys

1:14:50

in there. I have all the confidence in the world

1:14:52

that you know we're

1:14:55

going to respond the right way. But you know, show

1:14:57

me, don't tell me. And let's see if we really have a culture

1:15:00

where you can win in those processes and standards.

1:15:02

And we kind of got checked and now we're

1:15:04

able to reconnect back to who

1:15:06

we are and we remember how much we need each other

1:15:09

and the competitiveness.

1:15:11

You got to earn that thing every night. Don't worry

1:15:13

about rankings, pressure, expectations. Lock

1:15:16

into your preparation, lock in and play into a standard

1:15:18

and block all that out and lean into each other, leading

1:15:21

the team pour into one another.

1:15:23

Awesome. Well, I can't wait to see you guys

1:15:25

take the ploor against the slokeis tomorrow night. I

1:15:28

really appreciate value your time, and

1:15:30

let's catch up again before the NCAA tournament and

1:15:32

see how they responded.

1:15:35

I appreciate that. Doug, thanks so much for having me on.

1:15:41

All right, that's it for this edition

1:15:43

of All Ball. Remember you can check out

1:15:46

my daily radio show and podcast

1:15:48

just typing Doug Gottlie. Wherever you got this podcast, you

1:15:50

can check it out, download it or listen to the radio show.

1:15:53

That's three to five Eastern

1:15:55

time, twelve Topecific on Fox Sports Trader,

1:15:58

the iHeartRadio app. I

1:16:00

gotta leave this his Elball