0:00

Hello,

0:05

dear listeners. This

0:07

week we are celebrating our five-year

0:11

anniversary with an episode

0:13

all about our history-making

0:16

American hysteria.

0:23

Our producer Miranda Zickler

0:25

will be interviewing Lilo

0:28

Mee about the journey of our

0:30

podcast, as well as my own

0:32

personal life journey and how

0:34

it has informed the content.

0:37

You know, things like queerness,

0:39

solidarity, faith, and

0:42

death. We also answer some

0:44

of your questions that we've received

0:47

over the years and celebrate

0:49

you, our amazing audience,

0:52

who have made all of this possible

0:55

for us. So please

0:57

enjoy this kind of vulnerable

1:00

conversation with me,

1:03

Chelsea Weber-Smith, and here's

1:05

to what we hope are many more

1:08

years making American

1:11

hysteria.

1:17

Ladies and gentlemen, both

1:19

and neither's, teens, babies,

1:22

dogs, dogs, yes,

1:25

they are your host, Chelsea

1:27

Weber-Smith, and this is

1:29

the five-year anniversary

1:32

of American hysteria.

1:35

Yay! That

1:38

was an absolutely stunning,

1:40

stunning introduction. Thank you, Miranda.

1:44

Wow, is that Irish? Um,

1:46

it's just something

1:47

new. Aw, I

1:49

love it. You're doing great.

1:52

You can do no wrong on today,

1:55

the day of days. That is

1:57

your day.

1:58

It's our day. It's our day. You're right,

2:00

but it's mostly yours. Stop. No,

2:03

it would be DOA,

2:07

as they say on friends, if

2:12

it weren't for you guys.

2:14

Well,

2:14

we are going to go into

2:17

some questions today. We

2:19

gathered many

2:21

questions and comments over

2:23

time

2:24

and over the last few days.

2:27

And we're just going to go through and talk

2:30

about what it's been like to make this show

2:32

for the last five years. The

2:34

first question that we have gotten

2:37

generally

2:38

over the years that I think

2:40

is a perfect starting place is, what

2:42

is the origin story of this podcast?

2:45

Miranda, like all great

2:49

businesses, American hysteria

2:51

started in a wheatwork, which

2:56

I believe has just announced bankruptcy.

2:59

So it's appropriate. Godspeed. Godspeed.

3:02

Godspeed. It's appropriate. RIP, I guess.

3:04

But yeah, I was

3:07

working for a company, producing

3:09

a different podcast and

3:11

hosting a different podcast. I was

3:14

the only employee on

3:16

the West Coast. So we had me

3:18

in this solo wheatwork

3:21

space sort of representing

3:24

part of this business. And then

3:26

we were kind of trying to acquire

3:29

podcasts. And I met Jim

3:31

Perry of the podcast, Youfamet,

3:34

our paranormal correspondent. And

3:37

I started working for Youfamet as

3:40

an assistant producer and traveling

3:43

with Jim to interview

3:46

people who have had paranormal

3:48

experiences. So very much kind

3:51

of almost the opposite of what

3:54

American hysteria is, but also

3:56

not. Also not. And I think

3:58

the best image. have of like

4:00

the earliest days before any episodes

4:03

even were put out is we

4:05

had this big ass whiteboard,

4:07

one of those ones that flips over and you

4:10

can use either side of it. And if

4:12

anyone has ever been to a we

4:14

work, one of the big, I

4:17

guess appeals to people, but not

4:19

necessarily me is that all of the walls

4:22

of each office are

4:25

transparent. So you could just see what

4:27

everybody's doing. And so it was just

4:30

Jim and me in this transparent

4:33

office and on the whiteboard

4:35

was all of our

4:38

ideas about American hysteria

4:41

and ideas for episodes. So it's

4:43

just this whiteboard full of the weirdest

4:45

terms and the weirdest, you know, it just

4:48

says like stranger danger, poison Halloween

4:50

candy, the Illuminati, teenage sex,

4:53

you know, basically all the episodes that

4:55

would become season one. And you

4:57

know, otherwise we're like next

5:00

to a company that specializes in

5:02

like storing your stuff in

5:04

a new millennial way. You

5:07

know, we're next to the kombucha stand

5:10

where everybody's going, including me and filling

5:12

up their little water bottles full of kombucha.

5:15

And yeah, it was it was definitely like a

5:17

pretty hilarious starting point,

5:20

especially because at the time it was like

5:22

in the beginning of kind of the we work controversies.

5:26

And one day we went to

5:29

use their phone booths and

5:31

on the phone booth there was a piece

5:34

of paper that was like, sorry, these

5:36

are closed because we've discovered that there

5:39

is formaldehyde coding. And

5:42

I don't know why that was. But

5:45

yeah, it was just a pretty hilarious

5:47

place to start. And starting more

5:50

from a paranormal background was also,

5:52

I think, really fun

5:54

and eventually very illuminating to

5:57

wanting to make a show that left room. for

6:00

the unknown while also debunking

6:03

the things that were important

6:06

to debunk, but not taking away

6:08

the fun and the joy that

6:11

belief can also bring, which is

6:13

of course the greatest challenge of the show, which I know

6:15

we'll get into eventually. But other

6:18

than that, it was my love of urban legends really

6:22

informed what I wanted to do, growing

6:24

up reading scary stories to tell in the dark,

6:27

growing up on the early internet too,

6:29

and all the strange things that you could find on

6:31

the early internet. Growing up with,

6:34

I've talked about it a million times, I don't wanna

6:36

get into it that much, but growing up with

6:38

conspiracy theories in my

6:41

life, as well as paranormal beliefs,

6:43

coming from my family members, and

6:47

just my own conspiratorial

6:50

thinking, and how that

6:52

had been sort of challenged over

6:54

the years, leading up to making American

6:56

hysteria, but still being obsessed

6:59

with those same stories, and wanting

7:01

to find a way to make content out

7:07

of that kind of meeting place between

7:10

my own growing

7:12

skepticism that is in

7:15

contrast to the wild believer that

7:17

I once was, and

7:21

trying to find where are

7:23

the important places that we

7:25

need to ask questions, and

7:28

also how can we have fun while

7:30

asking these big questions and

7:33

confronting these scary things,

7:36

and things that maybe otherwise might

7:38

be really challenging. So the show

7:40

itself was something that you conceptualized

7:44

with Jim.

7:45

You know, I mean, yeah, it

7:47

was definitely with Jim. I mean, we were together

7:51

most days, and he was the man I was

7:54

bouncing everything off of, and

7:56

I mean, he is one of

7:58

the most supportive kind people. that

8:00

I've ever known. And it's like always

8:03

such an honor to work with him

8:05

and be friends with him. And yeah,

8:07

I mean, he was really a huge

8:10

part of the show. And so

8:12

was Will Rogers, who's our voice actor.

8:14

He was also working at the same

8:17

company and he lived

8:19

on the East Coast. So we

8:21

were working together in podcasting as

8:23

well. He was doing a lot of amazing stuff,

8:26

you know, with narrative forms.

8:29

And that became also part

8:31

of the inspiration of trying to make kind

8:33

of a multimedia show

8:35

that involved kind of cinematic

8:38

elements, right? And that's when I met

8:40

Rod Rodriguez, who is our

8:43

sound designer, Clear Como Studios. He

8:45

was introduced to me by

8:48

the people who own the company and

8:50

was, you know, they were like, here's your sound

8:52

guy. And I said, okay. And,

8:55

you know, we've worked together since

8:57

the very beginning. The sound of American hysteria

9:00

is the sound of Rod. You

9:02

know, I mean, we work together

9:04

every time an episode comes out to really

9:07

create the kind of soundscape

9:09

that I want. And I can

9:11

just sort of put my trust in him to

9:13

bring that same tone to every

9:16

episode. And so, you know, I had that

9:18

early team. I brought in my little brother, Riley

9:21

Suedelyus Smith, and

9:23

he was so inspiring to me because growing

9:26

up, I knew no one as obsessive

9:28

as Riley and knew no one who was

9:31

so good at recalling facts and

9:33

history. I mean, he was into history

9:36

way before I was. I did not, I

9:38

didn't even really like history before making

9:41

American hysteria, which is absurd,

9:43

right? All I think about now, but. So

9:46

he became a research assistant and,

9:48

you know, that was kind of our first year team.

9:51

And I was going

9:53

through such a hard time and I have

9:55

no idea. I mean, I'll never go

9:57

back and listen to any episodes. ever

10:00

because I will pull my hair out

10:02

because I'm a obscene

10:04

perfectionist and will, you know,

10:07

beat myself up forever about any little mistake.

10:10

But I don't know if going back

10:12

and listening for other people, if it's like detectable,

10:15

but it was like I was going through one of

10:17

the worst periods of my life

10:20

and it was like a crawl

10:23

to the finish line with that series,

10:25

especially our End of the World episode.

10:28

I look back at kind of what was going on in my life

10:30

and I'm like really amazed that I

10:35

was able to put out this

10:37

season. And around

10:40

that time is when, you know, I

10:42

met you and you became

10:44

not only my partner, but

10:47

also our producer. And

10:51

you know, it was like, in addition

10:53

to the whole team, it was, you know, you and I

10:56

eventually in lockdown

10:58

and you would take care

11:00

of me as I paced

11:02

and pulled my hair out and you would

11:04

really bring me down to earth and like

11:07

really help me like get a grip on what

11:09

was important for each topic and

11:11

what like needed to go, what needed to stay,

11:14

like what do I want to say? What do I what

11:16

really matters here? Like that was so

11:19

like you coming in and

11:21

perfecting the thing that

11:24

like felt so heavy

11:26

on my shoulders, right? Like

11:29

it was like I knew that I had

11:31

you to make sure that I

11:33

was being clear in the ways

11:36

that I wanted to be and that the message

11:38

was coming across and that the stories

11:40

we were telling we were telling with the

11:42

right kind of sensitivity and you

11:45

know, you helped me pronounce my words. If

11:49

you go back to season one, don't

11:51

at me about what I've always talked about. Nuclear.

11:55

Yes. Okay. Nuclear.

11:58

I'm sorry. Also, I say things like Des Moines. Yeah,

12:00

embarrassing. But

12:03

no more. I bet it's really

12:05

hard to find a mispronunciation of a word since

12:08

Miranda has been onboarded

12:10

to the team. I

12:12

think all that speaks to

12:15

the fact that our show is like a

12:17

DIY show. We

12:20

did start out on more of a network

12:22

situation, so we had that initial

12:25

push that really helped us to

12:28

get us out there and to get people to

12:30

know what our show is. But since then,

12:32

since becoming independent in season

12:35

two, it's like, I mean, that was in 2019, I think.

12:40

It's just really been our ragtag

12:43

group. I mean, I'm a small business owner. If

12:45

you can believe that, and guess

12:47

what? America does not treat us well. But

12:52

I mean, my mom does so

12:55

much for our show. Hi, mom. Thank

12:57

you. So I think it does

12:59

speak to the fact that we're just

13:02

a group of people who care

13:04

about each other and

13:06

are trying our best to put out the best

13:08

stuff that we can and also create

13:11

something that people will really enjoy

13:13

without the limitations

13:17

that can be put on you when you don't own

13:19

your own intellectual property. Yeah.

13:21

So we just really do get to do what

13:24

we want for the most part. And that

13:26

is a big gift and something

13:28

that our Patreon and Apple

13:31

Plus community really helps

13:33

us be able to do that. And yeah,

13:35

so does James at our ad

13:37

network, Wizard. There

13:41

are people involved in this that

13:43

are on the outside but still

13:46

very much a part of our team. Lauren Passell

13:48

is the patron saint of

13:50

podcasting. She's helped us with PR,

13:53

with interviews, with everything.

13:56

She just is such a vital

13:59

part of our little team. team too and

14:01

it's just like I feel so lucky that we

14:03

have, we've been able to kind of cultivate

14:06

that freedom and that we've

14:08

been able to do it together. Yeah, we're the

14:10

family punk band of history podcasts.

14:13

That's right. That's exactly

14:15

right. Well, all of that kind of segues

14:17

well into

14:19

the next question that I have here, which

14:22

is what is the hardest

14:24

part about making the show, which you've

14:26

touched on a little bit, but please expand.

14:29

The hardest part of making this freaking

14:32

show is like the fear

14:35

that accompanies it because as

14:37

you know, every time we

14:40

put out an episode, I spend

14:44

and you and everybody, but

14:46

mostly you, but really me because I'm

14:49

the dweller. I dwell, I dwell, I dwell,

14:51

I dwell. I ruminate and I fear.

14:57

Every episode has something

14:59

in it that I want to get across

15:02

that feels difficult and feels

15:04

like potentially controversial,

15:07

potentially something that might make

15:11

people mad and figuring

15:13

out the way to say that, that

15:16

can get through that initial

15:19

like

15:20

wall of feelings. There are sometimes

15:23

things where I'm like, I don't know how this

15:26

idea, this story will be

15:28

received and I'm going to do my very

15:30

best to honor

15:32

the fact that it's a difficult story and

15:35

get it to people in the best,

15:38

most productive way that I can. But

15:41

every Sunday night I am

15:45

laying in bed and I'm not sleeping

15:47

unless I take some sort of sleep aid because

15:49

I'm going over

15:52

every little thing or there's a sentence

15:54

that I'm like, ah, that I don't know if I said

15:56

that right. And it's really helped me

15:59

grow. like face the fact

16:01

that like you can't make everybody happy.

16:04

And often we get letters

16:07

from people that are really hard for

16:09

me to process and

16:12

deal with. And that's often someone

16:14

who has a personal experience

16:17

with the content that we've made and want

16:19

to tell me why

16:22

something I said or the way

16:25

that I talked about something or a story

16:27

I told hurt them personally,

16:29

right? And I mean, it's the internet.

16:32

Everybody goes through this. It's in no way

16:35

unique. And no matter

16:37

what you do, if

16:39

you're talking to enough people,

16:42

something is going to hurt someone.

16:45

And I hate it. Those

16:47

letters haunt me. And it does

16:50

haunt me that I could ever

16:52

cause somebody any kind of harm.

16:55

And whether that's, it's not that these

16:57

letters are always justified

17:00

or fair or in

17:02

good faith, but other times

17:04

I get letters that want to engage with

17:06

the content and come

17:09

to me in good faith and just

17:11

let me know, hey, I know

17:13

you didn't mean to do this. I know this wasn't

17:15

your intention, but maybe you didn't

17:17

think about this when you were talking. It's

17:20

still hard, but I like, that's something

17:22

I really appreciate about our

17:25

audience, about you all is that

17:27

usually when you do engage with me about

17:29

things that you think I have

17:31

either done wrong or could do better, it's really

17:34

in good faith. And I think that that does

17:36

speak to the way we've been

17:38

able to cultivate this community that

17:41

really wants to find

17:44

solidarity in this world and

17:46

wants to move toward healing

17:49

and doesn't want to get stuck in

17:51

outrage. And wants

17:53

to move beyond those feelings so that we can actually

17:56

get to the work that

17:58

needs to be done and not be destroyed. distracted,

18:00

being angry at each other and accusing

18:03

each other of things. And that's like something

18:05

that I feel more grateful

18:07

for than probably anything else is like

18:09

how our community really

18:12

does work in good faith. And I

18:14

think that that can be really rare. Yeah,

18:17

and I think that you do a really good job in

18:19

a skill that you've sort of cultivated

18:21

over time, which is figuring

18:24

out which of those letters and attempts

18:28

to engage with you feels

18:29

possible to engage

18:31

back with. And

18:34

I've seen you have situations

18:37

where somebody just needs to

18:39

talk about something that happened to them and you

18:42

engage with it and you think

18:45

on what has caused harm

18:47

or what has caused perceived harm and say

18:51

to them like these are the ways that I feel

18:53

like I can be more sensitive to this in the future.

18:55

I do care. As cliche

18:58

as it is, like I really do

19:00

care about everybody that listens to this show

19:03

and you know, I'm like, oh

19:05

my god, what's the response? Is this finally

19:07

the time that everybody decides I'm a monster

19:09

and hates me? And whenever

19:12

I do have that Sunday

19:14

night panic anxiety, I'm

19:17

always made to feel better by our

19:20

listeners who take the time to

19:22

write me and let me know that they

19:24

liked the episode. Like I actually

19:26

get to wake up to people

19:29

confirming to me that what I've

19:32

said is okay and

19:34

that the message came through. And

19:36

so for those of you who do that for me, I'm

19:39

so grateful and you don't know how

19:41

much it really impacts

19:44

my own mental health. Because

19:47

I may appear confident,

19:51

but you know, I'm not and

19:53

I'm always worried. My brow is

19:56

perpetually creased.

19:57

And

19:59

you know.

19:59

It is the listeners and the community

20:02

that keeps me able to

20:05

do it again. Yeah. More,

20:08

after this.

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And now back to the show.

21:36

Well speaking of that, what are some

21:38

of the things listeners have

21:40

written in to tell you that are like fueling

21:42

this and making you feel

21:45

like you can do you have like specific stories?

21:47

I'm asking like I don't know you do. I know you do.

21:50

Always

21:53

the best are the ones where people

21:55

are like I listen to this with

21:58

a family member who might. be

22:00

more right-wing or who isn't

22:03

very political but maybe has been a little

22:05

bit indoctrinated with certain

22:07

ideas. And when

22:09

I hear that someone unconventional,

22:13

let's say, has been able to engage

22:16

with my content, that's

22:19

a really big deal to me because I want that.

22:22

I make the show with the hope

22:25

that the stories will speak

22:27

for themselves, that history will speak

22:29

for itself, and then I can do my little soapbox

22:31

at the end and try to

22:34

share my ideas in

22:37

a way that people can

22:39

digest enough that

22:42

there's like some kernel of it

22:44

that might shift their meter

22:46

just a little bit. And I think that

22:49

knowing that the show has helped

22:51

some people reconnect with

22:53

people that they felt like they might

22:55

be losing through all of this hysteria

22:59

that's happened over the last five

23:01

years, that is like wow

23:04

to me. The very first thing

23:06

that happened that I was

23:09

like, well, okay, the show is doing something

23:11

was just a comment

23:14

on some early Instagram

23:16

post from a man

23:19

who was, he said something like I'm 60 or 70

23:21

years young and I've been afraid

23:24

of Satan my whole life. And

23:27

your show taught me why

23:29

and taught me how Satan

23:31

was created in culture and used.

23:34

And he was like, and I feel free

23:36

for the first time. I wish I could hug

23:38

you like I'm finally free. And

23:41

I was like, fuck. Holy

23:44

shit, right? I didn't grow

23:47

up religious. So it's like, I

23:50

think even for people who did grow up

23:52

religious, there is even more sort

23:54

of like understanding around that. But I was like, man,

23:56

like that is

23:58

really special. And

24:01

that was like a huge, huge

24:03

moment for me and kind of one

24:05

of the most memorable for sure.

24:09

And I think Miranda, there's a

24:11

message that I think we would like to

24:14

read that we like recently got. This

24:17

is from Caitlin. Hi Caitlin.

24:19

Hi Caitlin. And

24:21

it's one of my personal favorite

24:24

messages we've gotten about the

24:26

show.

24:27

She says, okay, this is going to be a weird

24:29

fan message, but I have to share it.

24:32

You are my dog's favorite

24:35

podcast. It's immediately

24:37

like

24:38

a perfect opener. She

24:41

says, I listen to a bunch of different ones

24:43

and she only comes running when the little clank

24:45

of the beginning theme music plays. She

24:48

won't let me give her a bath or her medicine

24:51

unless this podcast is playing.

24:54

If she's howling and I need her to chill,

24:56

I play your podcast.

24:59

So thank you for being my dog's

25:01

favorite show. And thank you on

25:03

behalf of my neighbors for keeping

25:05

her quiet when I have to leave her home alone.

25:08

I mean, come on,

25:10

talk about the peak of a

25:13

career right there. Oh my God.

25:16

Yeah. Shout out to that dog. Shout

25:18

out to that dog. I wish I knew the dog's name because

25:20

I would like call its

25:22

name right now. Oh, good girl. Oh,

25:25

you're such a good girl. Made

25:27

that dog's day. Anyway,

25:29

thanks for that, Caitlin. Really

25:32

filled our entire like everyone

25:35

with joy, that message. Truly, you

25:37

sent it everywhere and everyone was very excited.

25:41

Nary a greater accomplishment from

25:43

this podcast. So

25:46

before you started the show, you

25:49

spent some time on the road.

25:52

And even before that, you

25:54

have throughout your adult

25:57

life taken on some kind of unconventional

26:02

methods of travel. Do you

26:04

want to talk a little bit about that and how

26:06

it's informed the show?

26:08

Yeah, I mean, it definitely

26:11

informed the show, like in ways

26:13

that I probably don't even

26:16

remember consciously because, yeah,

26:19

starting, and I've talked about this, you know, I

26:21

mean, our Hipster's episode really goes into

26:24

this part of my life

26:26

and kind of interrogates it a little

26:28

bit, which I'm not going to do right now, though

26:31

it is fair to interrogate the

26:33

archetype of the middle class hitchhiker

26:36

who doesn't need to be on the road and

26:39

yet takes on that role.

26:42

And I sure did that, and I did

26:44

it every summer throughout my

26:46

college career. And

26:49

over the course of that career,

26:52

you know, I went to almost

26:54

every state getting

26:57

rides with people and meeting people. And

27:00

I mean, having intimate

27:02

conversations with every

27:05

kind of person that I

27:07

can really imagine. And I think

27:10

doing that taught me like

27:13

a lot about America and about

27:15

the types

27:18

of people that make up America,

27:20

because it's like we have a lot of ideas

27:22

about people that are kind of cardboard

27:25

cutouts or are based

27:27

on one characteristic about

27:29

them. And we're like, oh, well, this is this person

27:32

because, you know, they are this

27:34

category of person, you know, stereotypes.

27:37

But I think, like, I

27:39

really got a lot of rides, especially with

27:41

the men of America. And

27:46

I was a dashboard

27:49

confessional, let's say, great band

27:52

for a lot of different

27:55

kinds of people, but especially for, I think,

27:57

men who did. did

28:00

not have any person

28:02

in their life that they felt safe to

28:04

be vulnerable with because

28:07

being a man in America, especially

28:10

of a certain age, like vulnerability

28:12

is, of course, extremely discouraged. So

28:16

I learned so much about like

28:19

pain and how much pain

28:21

people are holding. And

28:24

it doesn't matter who they are. I

28:27

think that, of course, who they are illuminates

28:30

the cause of their pain or what their pain can

28:32

do to others. But just on a basic

28:35

level, like I would have

28:38

men break down and cry about

28:40

their dead wives, about war

28:42

trauma, about a trauma that happened to them

28:44

when they were growing up, about their loss of faith

28:47

in God. I mean, any kind

28:49

of conversation, I probably

28:52

had something that approximates

28:54

it. And I

28:56

think that it taught me a lot

28:59

about empathy

29:02

and not even in the sense of like, oh,

29:05

this pain is valid or this pain

29:07

isn't valid or like this pain

29:09

was caused by themselves or,

29:11

you know, like just not quantifying

29:14

or categorizing. And

29:18

not just a handful of times

29:21

did someone tell me a secret that

29:23

they had never told anyone, knowing

29:25

that they would never see me again or see

29:28

me and the people. I was often with other people

29:30

just for the moms of the pod, as we call

29:32

them. I was usually not

29:35

alone in this, but I had travel companions

29:37

who kind of had the same desire

29:40

of... Because, you know, I mean, we went into this not

29:42

just like, ooh, we want to get to like New

29:45

Mexico, but it was like, we want to

29:47

do something with what we're

29:49

doing. And we did, I had this

29:52

desire to be that

29:54

for people. I think once I

29:56

got on the road and discovered that I

29:58

had the ability to... be

30:00

a space like that for people, it

30:02

changed what I

30:05

felt like I could do. And

30:07

it was like this lesson

30:10

in other people.

30:13

And it was a lesson in like, okay,

30:16

like America is a

30:19

dark place with many problems,

30:22

but within it are people

30:24

who have like

30:27

big love and big

30:29

sadness and also

30:31

just gave me just a hunger for

30:34

stories and for people's stories

30:36

and how those stories

30:39

made up America as a whole. Yeah,

30:43

totally.

30:44

Also, a lot of people have

30:47

written in to us

30:49

about how the show has kind

30:51

of helped them figure out their own

30:54

queerness and gender identities.

30:57

Do you want to talk a little bit about how

31:00

your

31:01

identity has played into this

31:03

show and your other work? Yeah,

31:05

yeah. I mean, that was definitely

31:08

the most response

31:11

that we got from asking for all of your

31:13

questions and experiences as

31:15

listeners was like it came back to that

31:18

kind of response of, you know,

31:21

you helped me figure out my gender identity,

31:24

sexuality, whatever, which is like such

31:26

an honor and such a massive

31:30

thing that I can't fully metabolize. But

31:37

when I was growing up in the Bushian

31:39

years, you know, when gay

31:42

marriage was like one of the hottest

31:44

topics, I

31:46

was in high school and figuring

31:48

out that I was queer, which was

31:50

not an easy journey. And

31:54

during those years, a really

31:56

common refrain of like homophobia

31:59

or whatever. you want to say was like, you're not

32:01

gay. And so I'd have a lot of like,

32:04

boys and men tell me, no, you're

32:06

not gay. You're going to

32:08

like, date me. Or like,

32:11

I remember this one experience where

32:13

I met this man who

32:16

was hitting on me and

32:18

telling me about how much he thought

32:20

we were like, supposed to be together, just

32:23

something stupid. And you know, being like, 17, 18, whatever,

32:25

you're like, I'll

32:27

just keep talking to this person instead

32:30

of just like, leaving. You

32:32

know, I just listened to him and I was

32:34

like, well, you know, I'm gay, so it's not

32:37

gonna happen. But I was nice

32:39

about it. And I just remember he was like, God

32:41

made man and woman and like, spiritually

32:44

they fit together and

32:47

gobbledygook. And I just remember

32:49

standing there and saying like, I'm

32:52

gonna stay here and have this conversation.

32:56

And I am going to learn

32:58

how to not let anyone affect

33:00

me in

33:03

this way. I would like, challenge myself

33:05

and stay in these conversations on

33:08

the road sometimes. I mean, most of the time

33:10

I hid that I was gay out of safety,

33:14

but there were just times

33:16

when I just like, developed

33:19

this weird muscle or that's

33:21

what I like, wanted to be doing. And

33:23

I'm not saying that anyone else should do

33:25

this, but this was my mindset was like, I

33:28

have control over whether

33:31

someone hurts me or not. And

33:33

I really like, believe that and I worked

33:35

that muscle. And so I think

33:37

I kind of like, I bring that similar

33:40

energy to the podcast where I'm like, you

33:43

know what, I'm gonna learn everything

33:46

about the Westboro Baptist Church. I'm gonna

33:48

read every mean terrible thing they

33:50

say about people like me. And I'm

33:53

not gonna let that hurt me.

33:55

And I'm going to be

33:58

strong enough, you know, again. This

34:00

isn't like right or correct. I'm

34:03

not telling other people to be this way, but

34:06

I'm like, I have the

34:08

power to take their ideas

34:12

against me, learn about them, look

34:15

them dead in the eye, analyze

34:17

them and try to make

34:20

something from them. I developed

34:22

a different kind of relationship that I do

34:24

feel like I have that skillset

34:27

and thus maybe that responsibility

34:29

because I can and

34:31

I enjoy it in a sense.

34:34

I enjoy engaging with like inflammatory

34:36

content against myself

34:39

because I know that for many

34:42

people that is

34:44

so triggering and so painful

34:47

and so terrifying that it's

34:49

just like I don't even want to

34:51

engage with anything like that and why would

34:53

you? That's my job. But

34:56

I think there is so much that you can

35:00

squeeze out of these poison

35:02

fruits, right? And I just

35:05

happen to have developed that

35:08

muscle and to actually

35:11

enjoy the challenge of engaging

35:14

with people who would

35:16

never want to engage with me. Yeah,

35:19

absolutely. We all appreciate you for

35:21

it. I hope so, thank you. To

35:23

close out these kind of frequently asked

35:25

questions and to shake off that bit

35:28

of vulnerability, a

35:30

lot of people have written, you're doing great,

35:33

you're doing a great job, Chels. A

35:36

lot of people have written about using the show for

35:38

like high school and college courses.

35:41

What is your relationship to

35:43

academia?

35:45

Well, academics out there,

35:47

you have my respect,

35:50

my admiration and I owe you a

35:52

lot because this

35:54

show is fueled by obscure academic

35:57

papers. And to hear that

36:00

the show's being used in like science

36:02

class. I'm like, oh, uh-oh, me?

36:05

Science. But

36:08

it's also like so cool. Like I

36:10

went to grad school, I've talked about University

36:12

of Virginia, and as part of my program,

36:14

I got to teach poetry. And that

36:17

was like one of the happiest years of my life.

36:19

Like I loved teaching college,

36:22

and I hope to do it maybe in my third

36:24

act of life. But I

36:27

just absolutely am

36:29

so indebted to people who do

36:31

the hard, nitty-gritty

36:33

work of like the subject

36:35

matter that we cover. And like, you know,

36:37

I feel like we do a lot of research. We

36:40

go really in depth, but these are people who worked on

36:42

these dissertations for years. And

36:44

I get to just take that and parse

36:47

through it and find the stuff that will engage

36:50

our audience and the stories and

36:53

even the perspectives and theories.

36:55

You know, I get to use those, and I

36:58

try my best to let people know who has

37:01

contributed during the episodes. But,

37:03

you know, that doesn't really do justice

37:05

to how important academics

37:08

are to our work. And

37:10

my hope is always to be able

37:13

to take that hard work

37:16

and get it to a larger audience

37:18

through kind of like turning it into more

37:20

pop content that people

37:22

can listen to and laugh

37:25

with. You know, unfortunately, academic

37:27

papers are famously unfunny. So

37:30

we get to like take these hard

37:32

one ideas and hard one research

37:35

and theories and try to get

37:38

those ideas out in

37:40

a way that hopefully most

37:42

people can experience.

37:45

I love when you all write to us and talk

37:47

about, you know, what you're doing in your classes. So

37:50

please always do that. It really, I mean, it fills

37:52

my heart with joy that even though I can't be teaching,

37:54

I can be a part of a curriculum. Like that is

37:56

like absolutely thrilling to me. And

38:00

I think the other thing I'll say about that is like,

38:03

in my heart of hearts, what

38:05

I really want to be is in this

38:09

long lineage of

38:12

folklorists that I love so

38:14

much. And I'll always

38:16

like shout my praises to Jan

38:18

Brün von, to the, you know, ends

38:20

of the earth, who is the man who really

38:23

coined the term urban legend, who really

38:25

took the idea of contemporary

38:28

folklore as an academic himself,

38:30

as someone who is literally like gathering

38:32

stories about urban legends

38:35

and creating compendiums of all

38:37

of these stories, but also

38:39

delivering them in ways

38:42

that anyone could enjoy

38:44

and understand. And I was like blown

38:47

away by like him analyzing

38:49

these stories that I'd heard my whole life

38:51

that I loved, just as

38:54

they were. And like telling me

38:56

that they had this like cultural significance

38:58

and that they could teach us about like what

39:01

it meant to be a person and what it meant to

39:03

be even an American. It was like, it

39:05

blew me away. And so I think I

39:07

really, really hope that

39:10

this work is continuing kind of this

39:12

long line. I mean, more than moral panics,

39:14

more than conspiracy theories, like my heart

39:17

is in urban legends and,

39:19

you know, I hope to do justice to

39:21

that lineage and, you know, maybe

39:24

get to be a part of it and be considered

39:26

a part of it. That would be a huge honor

39:28

for me.

39:29

Well, I consider you a part of it. I

39:31

think you're a folklorist. Thank

39:34

you. I think you're a podcast. That's J.D. Yes.

39:37

Yes, thank you.

39:39

More

39:40

after this.

39:44

And now back to the show.

39:47

Should we get into some more specific

39:50

questions from the folks

39:52

who make us go? Yeah.

39:56

And thank you all so much for writing in. You know,

39:59

we obviously can't read.

39:59

everybody's questions and

40:02

comments but I mean it was like oh

40:04

it was just so wonderful

40:06

to hear from all of you so if you wrote in like

40:09

just know that I absolutely read

40:11

it that we read it and that like it's so

40:13

meaningful each and every one of

40:16

you so just like thank you so much for

40:18

taking the time to do that yeah y'all are

40:20

the engine oh yeah

40:22

okay I want to say

40:24

Brigitte because it's spelled that

40:26

way it could be Brigitte

40:29

and Brigitte asks what

40:31

is your Roman Empire

40:33

yeah

40:34

I was like thinking about this question and

40:37

what I kept landing on is

40:40

Jesus H. Christ I think

40:42

about that guy all the

40:44

time it's true what I really

40:46

mean by that is not necessarily

40:48

Jesus but I think a lot about

40:51

religious history understanding

40:53

the belief structure of

40:55

a culture is like how you understand

40:58

a culture and I think

41:00

religious history is so fascinating

41:02

to me because you can

41:05

trace back so many

41:07

ideas to these

41:09

books and so much of our troubles

41:13

so many of our troubles so many of

41:15

our wars and conflicts go back

41:17

to like these handful of sacred

41:19

texts and like if we don't understand

41:22

them then it's really hard to get

41:24

a full picture of anything

41:27

and you know you can read the Bible

41:29

that's one thing but then you can go back

41:32

and read the Bible as a historical document

41:35

and when you do that it takes

41:37

so much of that context

41:40

the rules inside of it the stories

41:43

that happened the strange miracles

41:45

and it puts it into a context

41:47

of war a context of the politics

41:50

happening in the year zero

41:52

like what is actually

41:55

happening that is facilitating

41:57

the creation of these sacred texts

41:59

and And to me, that is something

42:02

that's not only absolutely fascinating,

42:04

but truly vital to me

42:07

to understand what is

42:10

the heart of so

42:12

many of the stories that we tell and the stories

42:14

that have become new stories

42:17

and morphed and changed,

42:19

but are still kind of the same and just affect

42:21

everything about our lives, just

42:24

depending on which of these sacred texts

42:26

your family or your culture

42:29

uses. And it's like the more

42:31

I feel that I can understand the

42:33

mix of a group of people, it's

42:36

like, okay, then I can really start to

42:38

understand the best way

42:40

to communicate my

42:43

own ideas in a way that can

42:45

be like understood and

42:48

interacted with in a productive way.

42:50

So that's what I think about all the time is early

42:53

religious history. Can confirm. Yes, she can.

42:56

Alani asks, what

42:59

is the episode that you've done slash

43:01

researched that has taught you the most?

43:04

Oh, yeah. I love this question. I

43:07

think it was

43:09

the episode we did called Rednecks, which

43:11

has definitely been one of the episodes

43:13

that's gotten the most positive

43:16

feedback. And one of those episodes that

43:18

I know that has helped people connect

43:20

with family members so that they like would

43:23

otherwise disagree with because it's an

43:25

episode about questioning

43:27

some of our narratives, our elitist

43:30

classist narratives about working

43:33

class white people and how working

43:35

class white people are the reason that we

43:37

have racism. They're the reason our country

43:40

is going down the drain because they're so

43:42

stupid and they vote against

43:45

their own interests and they are bad people.

43:50

And that always rubbed me the wrong way just

43:52

because like, I don't really like anything

43:54

that's that reductive. It's

43:56

like when we focus on fighting.

44:00

people that also lack systemic

44:03

power, then we're not focusing

44:06

on the people that are creating the conditions

44:09

that are crushing all of us

44:11

in different ways, no matter who we are, as

44:13

long as we're not rich politicians

44:17

or whatever. People who actually

44:19

have the power to make the decisions

44:21

that harm us. I

44:24

just started to really see, I

44:26

don't want to punch across the

44:28

aisle anymore. I don't want to

44:31

make fun of these people as if

44:33

it's somehow benefiting the leftist

44:36

project because it's not. What

44:38

benefits our project is trying

44:40

to find as much solidarity

44:42

as we can. Sometimes we can't. We

44:44

don't always want to find solidarity with people who

44:47

hate us, don't get me wrong, but there are many times,

44:49

I think, and this episode taught me that

44:52

you can reach across that aisle. The

44:54

Rainbow Coalition, Fred Hampton,

44:56

the Black Panther Fred Hampton's Rainbow

44:58

Coalition changed my life,

45:00

hearing about that and really learning about that.

45:03

There's not always going to be 100% agreement

45:06

between you and another person,

45:08

but if you can find the common

45:10

ground that you need to tolerate

45:13

one another enough to work side

45:16

by side for liberation,

45:18

then I think that that episode

45:21

really helped me learn that

45:23

for me, that is a big

45:25

goal and something that I think is so

45:27

worth doing. I

45:30

don't think anyone ever has to do that

45:32

kind of work or has to feel like they

45:34

want to find that kind of solidarity, but

45:37

I think if that resonates

45:39

with you, that it can't hurt

45:41

to reach across those

45:43

aisles and try to

45:46

find ways to work together.

45:48

Yeah, absolutely. There's

45:51

that old idea of we

45:54

all want the same things at the end of the day. We

45:56

want health and safety and the same for

45:58

our loved ones.

46:00

Well, that was really beautifully said and I think

46:02

it segues perfectly into our kind of closing

46:06

thought and Question here,

46:08

which is from Courtney Courtney

46:11

says Something I have always admired

46:13

about your show is its tone Although

46:15

you are approaching your subjects through a skeptical

46:17

lens It's easy to forget that because of

46:19

the grace and understanding you give to people

46:22

who do earnestly believe in something beyond

46:24

what we can See, I was wondering

46:26

if you could tell us about the balancing act between

46:28

love and skepticism And what it

46:30

means to you to make work that publicly engages

46:33

with that often tenuous relationship.

46:35

Oh

46:36

Courtney Cut

46:39

to the core me Courtney Now

46:42

it's it's it's like such a good

46:44

question and I think that

46:47

the reason that I Have

46:50

a lot of grace for people

46:52

who believe in Things

46:54

that you know, maybe we're like what? Is

46:58

because I once believed in things that

47:00

many people might go what and

47:05

And so I think I'd be a hypocrite

47:08

You know if I if I didn't

47:10

approach people and their

47:13

beliefs with some modicum

47:15

of respect and Understanding

47:18

because like before I

47:20

became the flexible skeptic

47:22

that I am I was very

47:24

much a new age Mystical

47:28

thinker, you know And I don't know what

47:30

I think of that everything now in

47:32

terms of what I believe what I don't believe But

47:34

you know, I I really had a sense

47:37

of my own purpose and

47:40

that there was like an intelligence in

47:42

the universe and something that

47:44

like Loved me and wanted

47:46

me to do good You know, basically

47:48

I had my own little hero's journey

47:51

and my traveling was definitely a part of that

47:53

and you know That's definitely mellowed and I

47:55

don't really have that faith

47:57

anymore and that has always been just

48:00

I mean, Miranda, you have

48:02

to talk me through it all the time of just like having

48:05

this void of not believing

48:08

in something. And part

48:10

of that was because, you know, I had

48:13

a death in my family of, you

48:15

know, I mean, I talk about this. My, my, when my

48:17

grandpa died, who was also part

48:20

of the subject of the rednecks episode,

48:23

you know, I was, I was present and that was just

48:26

really like really changed my view

48:28

on life in a way that

48:30

was really hard. And he's

48:33

my, you know, he was my

48:35

person in a way, you know, he was like

48:38

the person I wanted to emulate in a way

48:40

he was like a spiritual

48:42

being to me because he was just such

48:45

a, oh,

48:49

okay, he was such a,

48:51

a loving, nonjudgmental

48:56

force in the world. And

48:59

I wanted so badly to be like

49:01

him.

49:04

Oh, boy.

49:06

And so I think when anyone goes through

49:08

a loss, especially

49:11

a loss that makes you sort of confront the nitty

49:13

gritty of, of life and death, you

49:15

know, I think it really, it changes

49:18

you. And I think some people have that

49:20

change happen at different stages of life,

49:22

but it is like it's challenging to

49:25

your faith. It's challenging to your way of

49:27

seeing the world. And

49:31

that happens on scales, large and

49:33

small. And from there,

49:35

you know, not long after that happened,

49:38

I started to make American hysteria. And

49:40

my whole focus was interrogating

49:43

the beliefs of others, but even

49:45

more so interrogating my own beliefs and

49:48

my own fantastical thinking

49:50

and the things I believed and tracing

49:53

those things back to the beginnings

49:55

of the people who started talking about

49:57

them and being like, oh, like this

50:01

thing that I like believed in was

50:03

started because this man wrote

50:05

this like book that I hate, you know, and

50:07

just being like, Oh, man, like that

50:10

it's challenging to like have to face the

50:13

things that you believe in a historical way.

50:15

And in a way where you're like, Okay, now I actually

50:17

understand each stage

50:20

of my belief, and

50:22

how it came from either

50:25

something that I now can see as

50:27

ridiculous, or that maybe is even actively

50:30

harmful, you know, and it's like, it

50:32

really was and is a really

50:35

big struggle for me, because I miss

50:37

believing in something and

50:39

I miss like knowing that I have a

50:41

purpose. And you know, I think, recently,

50:44

you and I, Miranda, we're driving back from

50:46

a trip and we're just

50:49

like deep in a conversation. And I was like,

50:52

very emotional and crying and talking

50:54

about, you know, missing my

50:57

experience of faith, and just feeling

50:59

like I couldn't truly know if I had

51:01

a purpose, you know, if I don't believe

51:03

in a greater intelligence, like

51:05

how can I have a purpose and I just I

51:08

am like stuck on this thing and I just we were

51:10

driving and, and, and I said,

51:12

like, I just don't know if I have a purpose.

51:14

And like we both looked up

51:17

and like in front of us was a van

51:20

with a bumper sticker that said, if you're

51:22

reading this, you have a purpose. And

51:24

we were both like, Oh,

51:27

like, holy shit. Yeah, I've never

51:30

seen a bumper

51:30

sticker like that before in my life. No,

51:33

no. And and like the billions

51:36

to one chance that the sentence

51:38

that I said at that moment, but connected

51:40

the bumper sticker like directly in front of us. I

51:42

mean, it got me closer

51:45

to believing in something.

51:47

It didn't get me over it. You know, it didn't get me

51:49

there. I don't even know if that's where I

51:51

should go. But like, you know, it

51:54

was I did have that moment of like, wow,

51:56

like, what does that mean?

51:59

And like, And I don't even know

52:01

exactly what I think my purpose is, but I do

52:04

want to help

52:06

people get past their fear and

52:08

outrage and connect with

52:11

each other and be reminded

52:13

of their love and

52:16

their heart, as cliche as it is, but

52:18

like to help people even

52:20

just for a little bit of time

52:23

while they're listening to the show to enter

52:26

that space and enter that like empathy

52:28

and also loosen up

52:30

enough to laugh and say,

52:33

oh my gosh, how ridiculous is everything?

52:36

And maybe from there, like come

52:38

to something more serious on

52:40

their own. And I'll

52:43

continue to be a flexible skeptic and

52:46

continue to seek because

52:49

I am a seeker to be sure.

52:51

I don't know what I'll find, but yeah, I just,

52:54

I hope that in my own journey too,

52:56

that other people feel

53:00

like they can come along and that they

53:02

can have their own journey and that it's

53:04

okay to question your beliefs.

53:06

And in fact, it's vital to

53:09

question your beliefs and hopefully,

53:11

you know, end up somewhere better

53:14

than when you started. I just, I don't know

53:16

where that'll be for me

53:17

quite yet.

53:19

Thank you so much, Chelsea, for having

53:22

this conversation with me and for all the work you've

53:25

done in the past five years and

53:28

for everything you are, I really

53:30

appreciate you. And I just wanted

53:33

to make sure you knew that. And I think a lot of people feel the

53:35

same way. Thank you,

53:37

Miranda. And I just so

53:39

appreciate you and everything you've

53:41

done for me and in my life and

53:43

with this show. And I appreciate

53:46

our whole team so much, Riley,

53:48

Rod, and Will, and

53:50

Lauren, James, and my

53:52

mom, Sally, and my whole

53:55

family and all my friends and everybody

53:57

who's been supportive through this. Like, I just.

54:00

like I'm so grateful and I'm shocked

54:02

that I get to do this for my job.

54:05

Like I'm stunned and you know,

54:07

it is because of all of you

54:09

that that happened for

54:11

me. And like, I just, um,

54:14

indebted to you and so grateful

54:17

and like all of you fill me with so much

54:19

hope and I just want

54:21

all of you to know that like no comments

54:24

that you make to me go unappreciated.

54:27

So just thank you so much and just for listening.

54:30

And thank you so much for listening

54:33

as I like to say. And have

54:35

a great week. Have a great

54:38

week.

54:42

This was American hysteria.

54:45

If you enjoyed this conversation between

54:48

Miranda and I consider becoming

54:50

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54:53

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54:55

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55:41

This episode was edited, produced

55:44

and hosted by Miranda

55:46

Zichler with sound design by

55:48

clear commo studios. Thanks

55:51

again for listening these last five

55:53

years. And I can't

55:54

wait to continue the journey

55:57

with all of you. you