0:04

There. Is like a beauty in magical

0:06

thinking can really help us. Cool

0:08

been tap into our imagination and

0:10

it's really when you combine it

0:12

with the overseen game of the

0:14

information age that were sort of

0:16

displeasing those instincts on to a

0:18

more complex and cerebral world's. Amanda

0:23

Montel is the host of

0:26

the podcast sounds Like a

0:28

Cold as well as the

0:30

author of three books including

0:33

Coltish and The Age of

0:35

Magical Over Thinking Notes on

0:37

Modern Irrationality which we will

0:40

be talking about today. Each

0:42

person or essay in this

0:44

brand new book looks at

0:47

a different cognitive bias, those

0:49

irrational thought processes of our

0:51

ancient, outdated hunter. Gatherer Brains

0:54

that no longer serve us

0:56

in our modern world. For

0:58

this episode, Amanda cover as

1:01

many of these cognitive biases

1:03

and explains why they were

1:05

important for the survival of

1:07

early humans, as well as

1:10

how they currently manifest in

1:12

a technologically advanced society that

1:14

as very little in common

1:16

with the distant past. Whether

1:19

a person or cultural or

1:21

political, these thinking patterns affect.

1:23

Us all in tremendous

1:25

ways and Amanda explains

1:27

what we can do

1:29

to understand combat and

1:31

maybe even harness these

1:33

cognitive bias ease to

1:35

create a better life

1:38

and a better world.

1:40

I'm your host, Chelsea

1:42

Webber Smith and this

1:44

is American hysteria. right?

1:52

Amanda, I am so thrilled that

1:54

you are on our show right

1:56

now! I finished your book this

1:59

morning and. I thought it

2:01

was absolutely fantastic and so vital

2:03

to everything that's happening right now

2:05

and had always happens for Christmas

2:07

Monica Ah so I did You

2:09

Ever being here in for each

2:11

year that saw the thrill is

2:13

minds and having my that this

2:16

has resulted oh President of of

2:18

they do the our little drama

2:20

to open a. Decision

2:23

It So I think the reason that

2:25

I call it vital is that on

2:27

are so we do talk a lot

2:29

about cognitive. Bias Seas And there's

2:32

this part missing from I

2:34

think a larger conversation in

2:36

our world that has to

2:38

do with these ways that

2:40

our brains work without us

2:42

truly being aware because we

2:44

still have the same brains

2:46

that we had before. civilizations

2:48

actually has some really big

2:50

deal. and it's really something

2:52

that maybe we don't wanna

2:54

think about because we hope

2:56

we're beyond things like that.

2:58

But basically your book. Has tackled

3:00

a whole bunch of these different

3:02

ways that our brains betray us,

3:04

essence of us. So I would

3:06

love to just start with. What

3:08

made you want to write a

3:10

book is you at some point

3:12

say in your box and bet

3:14

this is the book you always

3:16

wanted to raise. The that feels

3:18

like a big deal, right? So

3:20

what was it They got you

3:22

release into this and why did

3:24

it feel so vital to you

3:27

to right? Yeah well. oh gosh,

3:29

I mean I dreamt. Do writing books

3:31

from a pretty young age? I think

3:33

they came to the terrifying conclusion that

3:35

I wanted to try to pursue a

3:37

career as an author. When I was

3:40

like nineteen, I remember. Being like

3:42

very afraid of that ambition is

3:44

that it would make be what

3:46

do you do. like you know

3:48

does your even a child up until

3:51

college in your like everything's pretend and

3:53

then you're like oh no these like

3:55

do lulu visions for my life that

3:57

i have had i actually wanted right

3:59

away that's so scary.

4:02

But so this

4:04

is my third book and it really

4:06

does feel like a culmination for

4:09

everything that's ever felt important to

4:11

me. I mean, I keep

4:13

joking that this book feels like my

4:15

goodbye tour. Like everyone I've ever cared

4:18

about, like every piece of writing that's

4:20

ever meant anything to me has a

4:22

place in this book. But

4:24

the sort of thesis of it crystallized

4:26

for me over the past few years

4:28

is I was just contemplating this

4:30

notion that despite living in the

4:33

information age, life only seems to

4:35

be making less sense. And it

4:38

certainly doesn't seem to be feeling

4:40

any better. And then as

4:42

I was researching my last book, cultish,

4:44

which is about the language of cults

4:46

from Scientology to soul psychos, so the

4:48

wide spectrum of groups, I

4:51

kept coming across all this really

4:53

fascinating psychology and behavioral economics research

4:55

that made mention of cognitive biases.

4:57

Some of the more famous ones

4:59

like confirmation bias and the cost

5:02

fallacy as part of the

5:04

explanation for why cult followers

5:07

would say stay in

5:09

the moonies for longer than made

5:11

sense to anyone else, including them,

5:13

you know, but I couldn't help

5:16

but notice how these biases also

5:18

illuminated so many of

5:20

the everyday behaviors that I was seeing in

5:22

the culture at large, and also some of

5:25

my own confounding choices

5:27

that I could never even explain to

5:29

myself, like my decision in

5:31

my early 20s to stick

5:33

out a romantic relationship that really felt like a

5:35

cult, a cult of one sort of dynamic that

5:38

I kept justifying to myself and hoping would get

5:40

better, even though there was no evidence to suggest

5:42

that was true. Or, you know,

5:44

my tendency to engineer online

5:46

enemies based on conflicts I'd

5:49

invented in my own head.

5:51

And Yeah, and so

5:53

there are hundreds of cognitive biases that

5:55

have been described over the years for

5:58

the book. I Essentially chose. My

6:00

eleven save the eleven that I

6:02

thought sold the most urgent, the

6:04

most relevant to what I was

6:06

observing in the Zeit Guys ones

6:08

that I felt like could really

6:11

relate to many of the observations

6:13

that I'm sure readers were also

6:15

known as saying like you know,

6:17

extreme cycles of celebrity worship and

6:19

dethrone meant Or you know, know

6:21

stall John how that works for

6:23

better and for worse than our

6:25

minds or like our embrace of

6:28

Instagram manifestation gurus. So the book.

6:30

Was just like this opportunity to

6:32

really follow my curiosities and play

6:34

and bland genres. And it was

6:36

just like an absolute blast array

6:38

and very cathartic. The I I

6:40

imagine it was could you also

6:42

put yourself in the hot seat

6:44

Oh hi You know what you

6:47

think is probably one of the

6:49

best ways to invite people in

6:51

the conversation is to say I

6:53

do this totally I'm admitting has

6:55

happened. He now I have had

6:57

these experiences that I'm going to

6:59

share. With you to eliminate this

7:02

particular bias and you do that

7:04

so masterfully and and so was

7:06

I wanted to know if there

7:09

was one of these particular by

7:11

a sees that you feel like

7:13

you most related to as a

7:16

chronic over thank her own hands.

7:18

Of course your book is about

7:20

over thinking like when you were

7:23

growing up. Oh as I was

7:25

growing up. Ah okay so as

7:27

a young person I feel like.

7:30

Proportionality bias really dominated a lot

7:32

of my do with a shame.

7:34

So proportionality bias is the second

7:36

bias I tackle in the book.

7:38

I'm It is the theme of

7:41

a chapter called i Swear I

7:43

Manifested That and I talk about

7:45

verse nally bias in the context

7:47

of arguing that manifestation is it's

7:50

own kind of conspiracy theories. so

7:52

I will sort of explain why

7:54

Me, My, that's version Alibi as

7:56

is this proclivity to think that

7:58

big events or. Even big feelings

8:01

must have had a big cause.

8:03

It just makes proportional sense us

8:05

to miss a tribute cause and

8:08

effect in this way. So you

8:10

know, on a grand scale. It

8:12

would be no. A global pandemic strikes.

8:14

This is such you know, an

8:17

immense calamity. It could not has

8:19

been simply the result of a

8:21

bunch of small random misfortunes. A

8:23

government must have engineered it on

8:25

purpose of the only way this

8:27

seems to make sort of cosmic

8:29

logic of I and I and

8:32

I also argue in the book

8:34

that manifestation while positive then rooted

8:36

in some truth that like your

8:38

mindset can totally influence outcome. Is.

8:41

Also a kind of miss attribution of cause

8:43

and effect. This idea that you know if

8:45

you only. Vision. Board hard

8:47

enough then you know you can

8:50

reclaim some agency over your life

8:52

during times of two months or

8:54

unpredictability. I'm and that can have

8:56

some pretty nefarious consequences. And I've

8:59

noticed in the current age that

9:01

a lot of these online a

9:03

manifestation gurus you are claiming to

9:06

have this like bespoke manifestation technique

9:08

that you can sign up for

9:10

thirty dollars a month to access

9:12

had sent some followers down a

9:15

much more pernicious conspiratorial que. A

9:17

Naughty Rabbit Moment has some of

9:19

the psychology and behavioral economics at

9:21

the root is really the same,

9:23

but I find and I argue

9:25

in this chapter that anybody who's

9:28

ever attributed of a larger than

9:30

life cause that was actually unrelated

9:32

to be larger than life of

9:34

fact that there were like trying

9:36

to parse out has a pinch

9:38

of conspiracy theorist in them. In

9:40

really come Down Malaysia, you and

9:42

your phone is that working or

9:45

when your car is acting. up

9:47

and you're like why are you doing

9:49

this to me is the authentic now

9:51

he has a human intention that is

9:54

conspiring against me it's you know we

9:56

all have this impulse to like project

9:58

is overly simplistic intentionality onto,

10:01

you know, problems that

10:03

we encounter that don't naturally make sense

10:05

to us or don't have like a

10:07

sort of clear rationale behind them. And,

10:10

you know, kids do this all

10:12

the time, like kids are sort

10:14

of the OG magical thinkers coming

10:16

up with, you know, like super

10:18

shins and play pretend games. And

10:20

there is like a beauty in

10:22

magical thinking as well, like it

10:24

can really help us cope and

10:26

tap into our imagination and things

10:29

like that. It's really when you combine

10:31

it with the overthinking of the information

10:33

age that it starts to get kind

10:35

of painful and sinister and dangerous and

10:37

those things. But it's almost like magical

10:39

thinking anyone who has OCD will will

10:42

relate to this. Obviously, you know, you

10:44

think that like rituals will result in

10:46

protecting your family. And I think, you

10:48

know, a lot of kids and I

10:50

remember as a kid engaging in certain

10:52

rituals, hoping that they would have, you

10:54

know, this big effect on my life

10:57

or in the safety of my loved

10:59

ones, you know, definitely. And I

11:01

don't engage in those rituals in

11:03

the same way anymore. But yeah,

11:05

growing up, I definitely found myself

11:08

doing a ton of that. And I

11:10

still have proportionality bias in my daily

11:12

life. Like we as human beings adapted

11:14

for paranoia. Like when you think about

11:17

human beings living in a physical

11:19

world without technology or modern culture,

11:22

like if something huge happened in

11:24

nature, like, I don't know, like

11:27

a branch falling, like it was

11:29

probably from a humongous gust of

11:31

wind, you know, like, and

11:34

we did adapt for a world

11:36

full of, you know, hostile intentions

11:38

and threats and things. It's just

11:40

that we're sort of displacing those

11:42

instincts onto a more

11:44

complex and cerebral world. Absolutely,

11:47

absolutely. And, you know,

11:49

something that really kind of got in

11:52

my head about the proportionality bias is

11:54

that I Think a

11:56

lot of our culture

11:58

around therapy. In psychology you

12:01

know we have these big feelings kind

12:03

of no matter who you are a

12:05

lot of us have big anxiety we

12:07

have mean out he problems with over

12:10

thinking we have. You know the sense

12:12

that something huge must have cause these

12:14

things And yeah I was part of

12:17

this ah a self actualization group when

12:19

I was a kid into my teen

12:21

years and there was a huge emphasis

12:24

on like we acted pig back and

12:26

find even if you don't remember it

12:28

we've got a date. Back and

12:30

find that big saying that cause all

12:33

of your problems right now and yell

12:35

lot of people there were just like

12:37

why I don't I don't have that

12:40

big sanctions and it felt like we've

12:42

gotta find that big justification for these

12:44

big feelings and I that feels kind

12:46

of similar and a lot of ways

12:49

to this but just kind of projected

12:51

back into the past. Yes that's such

12:53

a good point because even physically her

12:55

heal him that of but like even

12:58

throughout this book launch France's. Or

13:00

a book about overcoming games. It's

13:02

a stressful like to have to

13:04

talk about you're supposed. To

13:08

the hubley kill bill Like really really

13:10

wrong if if if I'm home I

13:12

feel I feel really good today. the

13:14

buyer beware and but yeah but until

13:16

the book came out you know I

13:18

was just feeling like anxious all the

13:21

time and like crying like why am

13:23

I. Writing

13:25

the book sell really good and and promoting

13:27

the book felt really bad and I was

13:29

like you know. I have all of

13:31

these big feelings and like I'm on

13:34

well hold it always does it. I

13:36

was thinking like I would I don't

13:38

deserve to feel this way because you

13:40

know when I was thinking back on

13:42

like all of the contributing factors that

13:44

was like a bunch of small things

13:47

and I was a ghoul that hasn't

13:49

earned me is the right So like

13:51

need. These ito more significant.

13:53

Interventions like you know I'd either wasn't

13:55

like that. One big trauma and you're

13:57

totally right. like that is like my

13:59

for. proportionality bias at work.

14:01

Yeah, it's these bias

14:04

these are wild. Yeah.

14:06

Okay. So is there

14:10

one particular bias that was most

14:12

kind of surprising to you when

14:14

you started to read about it

14:16

that kind of shook you a

14:18

little bit to your core? Yeah,

14:21

well, they a lot of them.

14:24

But there is a chapter in

14:26

the book that covers something called

14:29

overconfidence bias, which is

14:31

defined by a few qualities, some

14:33

of which are the near

14:35

universal tendency to over

14:38

attribute positive outcomes to

14:40

ourselves to like overestimate

14:43

our knowledge or capabilities

14:45

in certain arenas like

14:47

driving or sex or

14:50

cooking. And

14:52

going into that chapter, I originally

14:54

wanted to explore the Dunning Kruger

14:56

effect, which is a phrase that

14:58

I had come across multiple

15:00

times, which describes just sort

15:03

of like colloquially the tendency

15:05

for people who know the

15:07

least about a subject to

15:09

most overestimate their expertise. And

15:12

it's a sort of license for a

15:14

lot of people to kind of feel

15:16

smug like, you know, only the dumbest

15:19

people think that they're so smart and

15:21

like the smartest people know their limits

15:23

and the Dunning Kruger effect is often

15:25

called upon by pundits and cultural commentators

15:27

to lambast, you know, like ding

15:29

dongs on the internet. And

15:33

then I started looking into the

15:35

Dunning Kruger effect and I very

15:38

quickly came across a sort of

15:40

like post mortem on this original

15:42

study that was co authored by

15:45

David Dunning, a social scientist, and

15:47

it was revisiting some sort of

15:49

like, salacious, conventional wisdom

15:51

that had been spread based on

15:54

this study. It's actually not that

15:56

people with the least expertise are

15:58

the only ones who over overestimate

16:00

themselves, everybody does it. Absolutely everybody,

16:02

no matter what their level of

16:05

expertise is in a certain field,

16:08

will likely, you know,

16:10

sort of aggrandize their

16:12

morality or their expertise

16:14

across various subjects. It's

16:16

just that people who are really, really

16:18

smarter, well educated in one subject will

16:20

tend to do that over like a

16:23

smaller range of subjects. But

16:25

everybody alive overestimates themselves. And this

16:27

was a really tough pill to

16:29

swallow because I was like, surely

16:32

this bias cannot apply to me.

16:35

Like I am a normal person. I

16:37

hate myself. But yeah. But

16:41

then it's like, well, actually,

16:43

there is a sort of

16:45

positive side to over crediting

16:48

yourself with certain outcomes or

16:50

escaping another person's knowledge for

16:52

your own. That really

16:54

reflects the idea that human beings

16:56

are so, so collaborative and we

16:59

are so good at making things

17:01

happen together that we

17:03

tend to sort of like

17:06

forget where our knowledge ends

17:08

and another person's begins. Like

17:10

we have these fuzzy cognitive

17:13

brain barriers and that really

17:15

helps us drive progress. You

17:17

know, it's like we are

17:19

constantly overreaching ourselves. And

17:22

there's a certain element of

17:24

that that's really good. Like

17:26

if everyone who engaged in

17:28

grassroots activism had to have

17:31

a PhD in global

17:33

politics, like I don't think anything

17:35

would ever be accomplished. And you know, if

17:37

I had to know exactly what I wanted to

17:40

say when I set out on a writing project,

17:42

like I would never write books. So you know,

17:44

we have so many of us really like push

17:47

past our limits in

17:50

a way that's sometimes really

17:52

lovely and sometimes absolutely catastrophic,

17:54

as we can see in

17:57

so many overconfident populist leaders.

18:00

So finding out that the Dunning-Fruger effect didn't

18:02

say exactly what we thought it did, and

18:04

also finding out that overconfidence is present in

18:06

all of us was kind of shocking. And

18:09

I like the idea that people could

18:12

be wrong about a cognitive bias and

18:14

to use their own cognitive bias to

18:16

then twist that other cognitive bias to

18:19

misunderstand it. Totally. Feels

18:21

very us. Yes. So us. More.

18:25

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now back to the show. All

21:01

right, if we've done kind of the

21:03

confirmation bias that unnerved you, what is

21:05

the one that comforted you the most

21:07

when you learned about it? Ooh, great

21:09

question. Okay, so the

21:12

last chapter in the book talks about

21:14

a bias called the IKEA effect, which

21:16

is kind of fun. And

21:19

it describes our penchant

21:21

to overvalue products that

21:24

we helped create, especially if

21:26

we made them with our own hands. And

21:28

I found this really quaint.

21:31

Yeah, it's a fairy. It's

21:33

just like so delusional, but

21:35

also adorable to think that

21:37

like just because we contributed

21:40

to someone's crowdfunding campaign or

21:42

like because we helped build our

21:44

own piece of IKEA furniture, that

21:46

that thing is like so much

21:48

more beautiful and so much more

21:50

valuable and that we want to

21:52

like show it to our friends

21:54

and overprice it after we sell

21:56

it on Facebook marketplace or when

21:58

we sell it. with it or

22:01

whatever. And I found that so

22:03

interesting, especially in the context of

22:05

this time when, you

22:08

know, technology is moving so so

22:10

exponentially quickly. And, you know, there's

22:12

a lot of fear surrounding AI

22:15

taking the place of artists and

22:17

us not being able to work

22:19

with our hands in this curative,

22:22

like profoundly human way anymore, because

22:24

like the robots might do it.

22:26

And so like working through some

22:29

of that, and also sort of

22:31

taking the temperature down on some of

22:33

that alarmism and fear was a really

22:35

cool exercise for that last chapter. Do

22:38

you want to tell us about the

22:40

precious thing that you made? Oh,

22:44

which one I mean, I'm talking about

22:47

your cushion, the cushion. Yeah, I'm looking

22:49

at it right now. And

22:51

actually, I feel more proud of it than ever. So

22:57

yeah, I mean, I do not identify

22:59

as particularly crafty, like I don't think

23:02

I'm really patient enough for crocheting

23:04

and sewing and like all these

23:06

things that would reflect so well

23:08

on me. And that would allow

23:10

me to like really fulfill my

23:13

cottagecore homesteader fantasy. Yeah, I don't

23:15

I don't work well with my

23:17

hands. But during the pandemic,

23:19

I did or during lockdown, I

23:21

should say I did so something

23:26

very special. I

23:28

had bought a big girl office

23:30

chair on Facebook Marketplace. It's

23:32

very aesthetic. It's like beach

23:35

wood. It's super like Scandi,

23:37

Japan. I'm obsessed with it,

23:39

but not comfortable for the

23:41

derriere. So I

23:43

decided to make an attempt

23:45

at sewing my own seat

23:48

cushion. And so I made

23:50

this really janky green, personal

23:53

pizza size, you know,

23:55

circular seat cushion stuffed with the innards

23:57

of a discarded dog toy, might I

23:59

add. beautiful. And I am

24:01

so proud of it. Like I

24:03

show it to everybody. I think

24:06

it is the most important object.

24:09

I'm like this

24:11

book, who cares? This sea cushion

24:13

is all I want to talk

24:16

about. The pinnacle. Yeah. And it

24:18

was just like, so funny, like

24:20

read about this cognitive bias and

24:22

be like, oh, this applies to

24:24

something I did literally two months

24:26

ago. I got with

24:28

everything I write about, whether it's like,

24:31

cultishness or cognitive biases,

24:34

it always like, generates

24:37

a sort of appreciation in me

24:39

for how mystical and communal and

24:41

silly and quaint human beings are.

24:43

Like, I think in the so

24:45

speaking of not knowing where our

24:48

knowledge ends, and another person begins,

24:50

we actually don't even know where

24:52

our knowledge ends and the computers

24:54

begin. Like this is actually a

24:56

described phenomenon called the Google effect.

24:59

We fail to remember the

25:01

information that we learn via web search,

25:04

but we also fail to recognize that

25:06

we have forgotten it. Like, we think

25:08

we know everything we've ever googled. And

25:10

that is so silly.

25:13

And but I think it also

25:15

generates a certain amount of ego

25:17

in us where like, everything is

25:19

knowable. I am so

25:21

smart because of Google. But actually,

25:24

like we are not meant

25:26

to like be able to get into like

25:28

hold that much information in our minds. We

25:30

have limited time, limited cognitive

25:33

resources, limited memory storage, we are

25:35

the same sort of like

25:37

stone age brains that we've always been.

25:39

And yet we're not aware of that.

25:42

So there is this ego that like

25:44

we can know everything under the sun.

25:47

And yet, we're simultaneously

25:49

like sewing. I'll speak for myself.

25:51

I'm sewing these like shoddy seat

25:53

cushions and thinking like I'm Michelangelo.

25:56

So humans are so silly. We

26:00

sure, yes, we very much are. And

26:02

okay, so one of my

26:05

favorite moments in the book is when

26:07

you talk about how humans, though

26:10

we've always had fear and

26:12

we've always had a certain sense of

26:15

anxiety, it really wasn't until the dawn

26:17

of reason and the middle ages and

26:19

those times that we really started to

26:22

be, our

26:24

minds were robbed of faith, I

26:26

think is how you put it.

26:28

And you also quoted Dennis Tewary,

26:30

who wrote that the new science

26:32

empowered mind that dared to know

26:34

was also quote, a vulnerable mind

26:36

robbed of the medieval certainty of

26:38

faith. And I think on our

26:41

show, that's something I like

26:43

to talk about a lot because we've

26:45

kind of written off faith as this

26:47

sort of old timey thing that

26:51

we don't really need anymore in the age

26:53

of science and technology and

26:55

progress. But really it leaves

26:57

us very vulnerable

26:59

to overthinking and to

27:02

just kind of this fracturing that

27:05

happens when, again, you have all

27:07

the knowledge in the world, essentially

27:09

at your fingertips, but we kind

27:11

of lack the sense

27:13

of community and shared myth

27:15

that used to unite groups

27:17

of people and kind of

27:19

be this thing that we could fall

27:22

back on. And so I would love

27:24

if you would give us a little

27:26

bit about your relationship to faith and

27:29

what faith can be in the

27:31

information age. Ooh.

27:33

Yeah. Yeah, I mean,

27:35

listen, I would not trade now for

27:39

the middle ages. Probably not.

27:42

Anyway. Yeah, I think, you know,

27:44

I don't wanna demonize the

27:46

democratization of information. It

27:49

is so much better to have

27:51

access to knowledge and

27:55

for it not to be kept on this

27:57

high throne, like just for queen, queen.

28:00

I always end up saying Queen instead of

28:02

King and Queen, which I actually love. It's

28:04

like the gender-nouche version for royalty. Just

28:08

kept a high throne for royalty and

28:10

scribes back in the day

28:12

when almost no one could read. Like,

28:15

yeah, sure, probably no one suffered from

28:17

information overload the way that we do

28:19

now, but that was worse. Of

28:22

course, yeah. And yet,

28:24

yeah, there is a

28:26

sense of security and

28:28

communality and ritual in

28:31

these safe communities that can be

28:33

really healing as long as you

28:35

can participate within the space of

28:37

ritual time. That's a concept that

28:39

I talk about in my book,

28:41

Cultish. I learned about this

28:43

concept of ritual time from a writer

28:45

named Gary Eberl who wrote a book

28:47

called Dangerous Words. And he talks about

28:50

how ritual and metaphysical

28:52

belief and things like that

28:55

can be really healing and

28:57

awe-inspiring as long as they

28:59

take place in this

29:01

specific space and time where there's a

29:04

ritual to signify you're entering that space

29:06

and time. There is a ritual to

29:08

signify that you're exiting it, and it

29:11

doesn't follow and dictate in an

29:13

absolutist or dogmatic way every decision

29:15

that you make throughout your entire

29:17

life. And that's where things get

29:19

dangerous. And I think as we

29:21

confront so much choosers paradox in

29:23

our lives right now, like there

29:25

is at least the illusion of

29:28

like endless possibilities for where life

29:30

could go, what job you could

29:32

have, what hair color you could

29:34

have. In addition to this real

29:36

sense of isolation that we feel

29:38

in a culture of like digital

29:40

age capitalism and that

29:42

pressure to know everything under the sun, this

29:44

kind of lie that says

29:47

that everything is knowable, all of

29:49

those things combined have created like

29:51

a really tense cultural environment. And

29:54

that can make the space for

29:56

sort of secular religions to become

29:59

really... fanatical and

30:01

cult-like. Yes, faith in

30:03

traditional religion is declining

30:05

in so many places all

30:07

over the world, and yet

30:10

that craving for meaning and

30:12

connection and ritual is going

30:14

nowhere. And so we are

30:17

putting our faith in, you

30:19

know, Reddit forums or pop

30:21

standoms. And sometimes those interactions

30:23

get really, like, crusades-level brutal.

30:26

And that can be freaky.

30:28

But yeah, I know I said

30:30

it in a way just a moment ago.

30:32

But like, every time I look into one

30:34

of these topics, whether it's cults or

30:36

cognitive biases, I find myself wanting to

30:38

engage in that stuff more. I

30:41

know writing a book about cults

30:44

and how cultishness shows up in

30:46

everyday life just kind of made

30:48

me want to tap into my

30:50

mysticism a little bit more within

30:53

the space of that ritual time.

30:55

Because yeah, I don't want to

30:57

like completely write off irrationality or

30:59

superstition. Like, that stuff is so,

31:02

so human and can really help

31:04

us during certain times. Like, no

31:06

one has the answers to the

31:08

most existential questions in life. And

31:10

so like, whatever you got to

31:12

do to like cope with life

31:15

on earth, like I, I think

31:17

like, it sometimes makes sense to

31:19

do things that don't make sense,

31:21

if that makes sense. But within this

31:23

sort of protected space where you can

31:26

have this kind of skeptical twinkle in

31:28

your eye. I don't know

31:30

if that answers your question. Yeah, it

31:32

absolutely does. And I mean, you've done

31:34

a lot of work around cults, as

31:36

you mentioned, your last book

31:39

was about cults, you have a podcast

31:41

around things that approximate cults. And I

31:43

was curious too, about when you're

31:46

talking about what we were just

31:48

talking about, you know, having to

31:50

have this set time where you

31:52

get to practice ritual, because otherwise,

31:54

it's going to take over your

31:56

entire life, which often means that

31:58

some kind of charismatic. leader

32:00

is going to be taking over your

32:02

life. And what do

32:04

you think is the cognitive bias

32:06

that is most responsible for the

32:09

extremes that we go to with

32:11

this type of overthinking? What is

32:13

the bias that pushes us into

32:16

things that are cults or

32:19

approximate cults? Yeah, well, oftentimes

32:21

a whole bunch of these

32:23

biases are working together at

32:26

once, you know, like the first one that came

32:28

to mind when you asked the question was

32:30

confirmation bias. This is the cognitive

32:32

bias that gets the most play

32:35

and like headlines and things like

32:37

that. But it's our tendency to

32:39

only seek out and identify and

32:41

remember information that validates what we

32:44

already believe while, you know, ignoring,

32:46

discarding, forgetting information that controversy. And

32:49

yet, you know, that that

32:51

bias almost never works alone

32:53

because, you know, if someone

32:55

else is right about something

32:58

that will trigger our zero

33:00

some bias or our tendency to think

33:02

that another person's gain inherently means your

33:04

loss. And so if another person is

33:06

a little bit right about something that

33:08

can feel like it's taking away from

33:11

you being right about that thing. And

33:13

so then you start feeling really competitive

33:15

and you dig your heels in, you're

33:17

like, no, really, I'm correct. And you

33:19

start cherry picking even more information to

33:21

defend that. I came across this really

33:24

sort of startling fun fact that the

33:27

increase in science literacy has

33:30

not actually helped us become

33:32

better at identifying real facts.

33:34

It's just made us better

33:36

at defending our existing beliefs

33:39

with cherry pick science. So

33:41

yeah, yeah. So that's kind

33:43

of horrifying. Yeah,

33:45

I think the information age is

33:47

causing the global attention span to

33:50

shrink. We are not

33:52

necessarily getting better at thinking

33:54

critically all on our own,

33:57

just because there's more to critically think about.

33:59

And and confirmation bias is

34:01

this really, really powerful

34:03

cognitive inclination because it just

34:05

helps us make efficient decisions.

34:07

It's like if we didn't

34:09

have confirmation bias, we would

34:11

agonize over every tiny life

34:13

choice. We would dwell on

34:16

questions from like, should I have ordered

34:18

a salad instead of fries with my

34:20

lunch to like, should I have gone

34:22

to a cheaper university? It's like we

34:24

constantly are looking for evidence that we

34:26

made the right choice, that we are

34:29

currently making the right choice, and that

34:31

just helps us move forward and

34:33

survive. However, as the

34:35

world becomes more complicated, as

34:37

our problems become more abstract,

34:40

it's just ever important to become

34:42

aware of those things. And while

34:45

we are pretty bad at changing

34:47

other people's minds with facts and

34:50

data, the study suggests that

34:52

we are much better at changing

34:54

our own minds. And so, yeah,

34:56

just, I mean, I found that

34:58

becoming aware of confirmation bias in

35:00

particular in myself has helped

35:03

to a degree, at least

35:05

it's like opened up conversations

35:07

about it. And I just

35:09

always try to learn

35:11

to stomach cognitive dissonance a little

35:13

bit more than I otherwise would.

35:15

I feel like a responsibility to

35:17

do that, but it

35:20

is very difficult. Yeah, it certainly

35:22

is. And so you

35:24

also talk about in the

35:26

cult vein that there is

35:28

a such thing as a cult of one

35:31

in a toxic relationship. I think there

35:34

are, you know, it could be

35:36

romantic, it could be parental, but

35:38

that there is this propensity in

35:40

many of us to enter into

35:42

those types of relationships. And I

35:44

think one of the biases that

35:47

you mentioned having to

35:49

do with that is the sunk cost

35:51

fallacy. So would you give us a

35:53

little overview of the sunk cost fallacy

35:55

and maybe how it plays into our

35:58

culture in a bigger way? Yeah. So

36:00

the Sun Cost Files, this is

36:02

another one that's a little bit

36:05

more famous, but this one describes

36:07

our tendency to think that resources

36:09

already spent on an endeavor, money,

36:11

time, but also emotional resources like

36:13

hope or secrets justifies

36:16

spending even more. So, you know,

36:18

a really low stakes example would

36:20

be like I am playing poker

36:23

I've already, you know, put so much

36:25

on the table I can't fold now

36:27

even though my cards are bad or

36:30

I don't know if anyone has ever had

36:32

the experience of you know Getting a hundred

36:34

episodes into a TV show. You don't even

36:36

like it anymore But you're like, I'm this

36:38

far in like I have to finish it

36:41

Those are some scenarios that don't really matter that

36:43

much Well, I guess depending on if you're a

36:46

high gambler then it could be with both of

36:48

my mouth But but I

36:50

found that it really can apply to

36:52

our personal relationships as well And this

36:55

is the most sort of personal chapter

36:57

that I write in the book about

36:59

my own experience with the

37:01

most irrational choice I think I've

37:03

ever made was the decision to

37:05

stay for many many years in

37:07

a romantic relationship That really felt

37:09

like a cult and the worse

37:12

it got the more I told

37:14

myself like commit harder Like surely

37:16

the win that you were promised

37:18

is just around the corner like

37:20

any day now It'll get better

37:22

even though there was only evidence

37:24

to suggest the opposite But it

37:26

really goes back to this loss

37:28

aversion that is very natural to

37:30

us humans And also the idea

37:33

that like again, we are social

37:35

creatures and it behooves us to

37:37

seem predictable to ourselves

37:39

like it doesn't feel good to

37:42

Recognize and cop to the idea that

37:45

you made a bad bet on yourself

37:47

that you you know We're

37:49

not aware of what would make you

37:51

happy that you made a choice that

37:53

caused you great suffering and that

37:55

you know You've posted so many happy looking

37:58

photos of you and your partner online and

38:00

yet it's not helping

38:02

and you don't want to create

38:04

the impression that you're some kind of loose cannon. And so

38:07

in the digital age in particular, I

38:09

find that the sunk cost fallacy really

38:11

motivates our decisions to stay in relationships

38:13

with people that we've really flaunted on

38:16

social media as being like our perfect

38:18

match. And I definitely suffered from that

38:20

and you know, learning about the sunk

38:22

cost fallacy and how it related to

38:25

this choice of mind really

38:27

helped me sort of forgive myself because it

38:29

made me feel like I was

38:31

not just some total irrational,

38:33

pathetic, nincompoop, you know,

38:35

like there was this sort of

38:37

behavioral economics reason for my choice

38:40

that is, you know, pretty relatable.

38:42

And anyone who's ever, you know,

38:44

doubled down on their decision to

38:46

stay in a job that isn't

38:48

serving them anymore or anything like

38:50

that can probably relate to this.

38:52

But yeah, very healing chapter to

38:54

write, I'll say that. I'm

38:56

glad it was healing to read and I bet

38:58

it was for a lot of people too. More

39:02

after this. That's

39:26

it. It's that easy. It's time

39:28

to rethink recycling with renew. Particular

39:30

value of resources may vary by January. And

39:33

so available at half your way.com. And

39:36

now back to the show. So

39:40

I think that what you're talking

39:43

about to me also relates in

39:45

this bigger way to the

39:47

sunk cost of getting into a

39:50

certain political mindset or getting into

39:52

conspiracy theories or following a particular

39:54

candidate. It really could be anyone

39:57

and just being like I've invested

39:59

my. emotions, my

40:01

thinking, my time into

40:04

this. And I formed, you

40:06

know, likely relationships to other

40:09

people who share this belief

40:11

structure. And losing that would

40:14

be not only scary, but also

40:16

feel like I wasted my time

40:18

and I was stupid in some

40:20

way. And so the other thing

40:22

that that reminded me of, and

40:24

I think it was in your

40:26

confirmation bias section, you have this

40:28

this sentence that said, if changing

40:30

your mind means losing your tribe,

40:32

it's not worth it. And that's

40:34

very like, that's one that hit

40:37

me really hard. Because I think

40:39

we've all had that experience where

40:41

we encounter information that challenges our

40:43

belief structure that challenges our candidate

40:46

that challenges something that means a

40:48

lot to us politically. And

40:51

sometimes I think all of

40:53

us reject that information. And

40:56

I think that that is one of those

40:58

biases that we all need to really

41:01

be thinking about. But it still

41:03

comes from this place of like

41:05

wanting community and not wanting

41:07

to lose that. So can you

41:09

talk a little bit about how

41:11

that kind of worked in a

41:14

pre historical way? Or like, why

41:16

is that a bias that we

41:18

have today? Do you think? Yeah,

41:20

well, I mean, again, we we

41:23

have always been these like

41:25

intensely collaborative social creatures who

41:28

don't survive very well on

41:30

our own. And also for

41:32

most of human history, the problems

41:34

that we needed to solve every

41:36

single day were more physical, like

41:39

they were less cerebral, they were

41:41

less complicated, there was less sort

41:43

of like, missing this information, you

41:45

know, and so we developed these

41:48

psychological shortcuts to handle

41:50

a set of problems that really

41:52

just related to survival in the

41:54

physical world. And that had so

41:56

much to do with our

41:58

social relationship. and making

42:01

sure that we could stay a part

42:03

of our community, because that was so

42:05

much better for survival, whether that means

42:07

aligning ourselves with a certain role model

42:09

or seeking out information

42:12

that suggests that your

42:14

tribe is better than another, or

42:18

coming up with a fight or flight

42:20

response to protect yourself from a threat

42:22

that came from a more physical

42:24

stimulus or something like that. But

42:27

now we're applying those psychological

42:29

shortcuts to scenarios that they

42:32

weren't really meant for. Like

42:34

I do talk in the book about how

42:37

I have always been mystified by my own

42:40

panic response and reaction to something as

42:42

non-threatening as like a curt email or

42:44

like, you know, an Instagram comment that

42:46

was like kind of salty that was

42:48

left on my account like three days

42:50

ago when I didn't see it. And

42:52

it's like not actually a threat to

42:54

me, but you know, I'm seeing it

42:56

now. But you think you're gonna die.

42:58

But I think I'm gonna die, yeah.

43:01

And that has like so much

43:03

to do with these cognitive

43:05

inclinations that develop to help

43:07

us react to potential threats

43:09

that like really could lead

43:12

to our demise in the physical world. You

43:14

know, if like something was new to you,

43:17

new information to you, like the sound of

43:20

rustling in the bushes or whatever, like that

43:22

probably meant that that could be a predator

43:24

or at the very least, you know, it

43:26

wouldn't hurt to react like it was to

43:28

save your own hide. But now we're sort

43:30

of reacting to Instagram conflicts or

43:33

pretend conflicts as if they're like a

43:35

rustling in the bushes that could attack

43:37

us. And that is just serving no

43:39

one. But yeah, I mean, consistently, I

43:42

just keep coming back to the idea

43:44

that like a lot of these biases

43:46

developed for an evolutionary purpose or at

43:49

least they developed as a sort of

43:51

side effect that for a long time

43:53

didn't hurt us. And now because of

43:55

the culture that we've created, they are

43:58

hurting us, you know, like. yes,

44:00

it's very important to protect your community

44:02

and make sure that you're not ousted

44:04

by them. But as

44:07

yeah, problems become political and

44:09

disembodied, you know, we're often

44:11

like communicating with people that

44:13

we've never met in person,

44:15

we just, it's becoming

44:17

our responsibility to be able to

44:19

tolerate disagreement, and yet we're only

44:21

seeming to tolerate it less. So

44:24

these are like some of the

44:26

ideas that I don't claim to

44:29

like definitively solve in the book, but

44:31

they're the ideas that I'm reckoning with for sure.

44:33

Certainly. And also what

44:35

you said, you mentioned it a little

44:37

bit, but I was going to ask

44:40

you about the negativity bias, which I

44:42

think is one that haunts my soul

44:44

as well as it sounds like yours.

44:46

And I think many of those highly

44:48

sensitive people out there, or

44:51

just regular people, everybody's sensitive, they

44:53

just hide it better. But you

44:55

know, this idea that we will

44:58

focus on one

45:00

negative comment, even if it comes padded

45:02

in like a sea of positive comments,

45:04

you actually referred to it in a

45:07

way that I thought was so good

45:09

as a snake in the field of

45:11

flowers. And I was

45:13

wondering if you would just extrapolate a

45:15

little bit on negativity bias. And again,

45:17

how did that serve us in

45:20

a time when predators were

45:22

a bigger problem for us

45:24

than frightening thoughts

45:26

that we just made on our

45:28

own? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

45:31

Negativity bias. Oh my God.

45:33

What a validating concept to

45:35

learn about. It is this

45:37

tendency to assign greater weight

45:39

to unfavorable events. So like

45:41

you said, you know, we

45:44

internalize the one insult we

45:46

got in a litany of

45:49

compliments so much more like if you were

45:51

to get 10 hugs and

45:53

one slap in the face, like you would

45:56

not remember any of the hugs. You know

45:58

what I mean? Right, right. And

46:00

yeah, I describe it in the book as

46:02

like an insult in a litany of compliments

46:04

as today's rattlesnake in a field of flowers.

46:07

And that connects to yeah, this

46:09

more adaptive thing where

46:11

like, if you were in

46:13

a field of magnolias

46:16

and you noticed a snake, it

46:18

would not behoove you to like

46:20

ignore the one snake and focus

46:22

on the flowers, even if the

46:24

snake actually just turned out to

46:27

be a stick, even if it

46:29

wasn't really a threat, zeroing

46:31

in on that one potential threat

46:34

could help you. But

46:37

now we are sort of

46:39

hyper fixating on negativity when

46:42

it really doesn't make any evolutionary

46:44

sense to do so. We haven't

46:46

outgrown that tendency. So yeah,

46:48

I there are a lot of websites that I

46:51

don't go on. Oh my gosh.

46:53

Yeah, don't read the reviews people. No,

46:56

no. Or maybe do. No,

46:58

maybe that's a better thing to do

47:00

and like exercise that muscle. Well, no,

47:03

I don't feel the need to. I

47:05

spare myself because the thing too is

47:07

just like, it's not natural to be

47:09

exposed to so many opinions. No, you

47:11

know, even reading a whole

47:13

bunch of like positive reader reviews

47:15

makes me feel anxious and because

47:17

it just makes me feel really

47:19

exposed. You know what I mean?

47:21

And it's like, I know, in

47:24

theory, that when I write a book,

47:26

other people will read it. But

47:30

unless I am having a conversation with

47:32

them the way that you and I

47:34

are right now, it tends to feel

47:36

like, oh my god, like, how'd you

47:38

get that? Why are you

47:41

reading that? My diary. Yeah.

47:44

My diary like, leave me alone. It's

47:47

weird. Yeah, absolutely. I

47:50

mean, I think people who are creative,

47:52

who are sharing their work probably in

47:55

general feel like that unless perhaps

47:57

the overconfidence bias is

47:59

largely. at play for them. I would

48:01

even in that I don't think anybody is

48:03

spared from feeling well if they are I

48:05

mean maybe I would take a take a

48:07

freaking self actualization workshop from them like I

48:10

would love to learn how

48:12

to not care so much about what

48:14

the rogue strangers who happen not to

48:16

connect with something that I written have

48:18

to say but I don't think I

48:20

ever will like being sensitive is such

48:22

like an important part of being a

48:25

creative person or like a person in

48:27

general it's like we should care what

48:29

people think it's just that we shouldn't

48:32

have to care what the entire internet

48:34

thinks. Wouldn't

48:36

that be nice? Yeah, these are like constantly

48:38

like all of the ideas that I'm trying

48:40

to hold in my mind at the same

48:42

time it's like I am very porous when

48:45

it comes to other people's feedback and yet

48:47

in the age of the internet I will

48:49

just get flooded you know like I can't

48:51

be that porous so it's a tough balance

48:53

and I don't think anyone has like

48:55

the answers for how to navigate

48:58

it but I'm trying. Being

49:00

aware of it is the first step right?

49:04

So you talk about the halo effect which feels

49:06

appropriate to talk about now with this

49:09

and I

49:11

would love if you could for

49:13

our audience explain the halo effect

49:15

because when we're talking about people

49:18

who are looking up to some

49:20

public figure there are these assumptions

49:23

that we make that are

49:25

projected onto that person and then can

49:27

make us desire to also take them

49:30

down in some way eventually so would

49:32

you give us a little primer on

49:34

the halo effect? Yeah

49:36

for sure okay so the halo effect is the first kind

49:38

of bias I talk about in the book I was like

49:40

very eager to cover it the second I learned what it

49:43

was it is our proclivity

49:45

to admire one quality in a person

49:47

and then jump to the conclusion that

49:49

they are perfect overall so you know

49:52

we like a pop star's music so

49:54

we assume that they must also be

49:56

you know educated, world-wide, and we're all

49:58

in the same place. maybe

50:01

align politically with us since we are

50:03

sort of seeing them as like an

50:06

aspirational role model figure. You know

50:08

we like an influencer's sense of

50:10

style. We follow them, we start

50:12

to get invested in them parasocially,

50:14

we start jumping to conclusions that

50:16

they are congenial and smart

50:19

and you know wealthy and all

50:21

these things that there's little to

50:23

no evidence to suggest that they

50:25

are and that

50:27

can set up some

50:29

expectations that ultimately aren't healthy

50:31

for the fan or the subject

50:33

of their fandom and again

50:35

there is a sort of evolutionary

50:37

reason for the halo effect back

50:39

in earlier days in human history

50:41

if you saw someone in your

50:43

community with like big muscles and

50:46

intact teeth you might think like

50:48

oh that person must be

50:50

a skilled hunter or a skilled fighter

50:53

and thus you know good to align

50:55

with for survival purposes I want that

50:57

person in my corner even if they

50:59

you know had good muscles for

51:01

another reason other than being a

51:04

good hunter it was like you

51:06

know fair enough it was a

51:08

good enough conclusion to jump to

51:10

but we're now mapping those tendencies

51:12

onto these modern parasocial relationships involving

51:14

celebrities and influencers again in this

51:16

much more complicated time and that

51:18

is what I think is responsible

51:20

for so many of the cycles

51:22

of celebrity worship and disrondment that

51:25

we see these days absolutely

51:27

and it kind of relates to

51:29

to another cognitive bias that you

51:31

talk about decline ism yeah in

51:33

your chapter called nostalgia porn again

51:35

probably very relatable to many people

51:37

and you talk about the way

51:40

that we take these figures from

51:42

the past say Britney Spears Paris

51:44

Hilton and we look at them

51:46

through a new lens

51:48

and sort of cleanse them

51:51

of the qualities that were once

51:53

ascribed to them by tabloids by

51:55

us like let's admit it right

51:57

like by people who saw them negatively

52:00

because that's kind of what we were fed

52:02

to believe and now they're having a

52:05

moment in the warm

52:07

glow of nostalgia and we see

52:09

them differently and that extends far

52:11

beyond people. So would you talk

52:14

a little bit about declineism and

52:16

your section about nostalgia porn? Yeah.

52:19

So a lot of these cognitive

52:21

biases have an effective analog. So

52:24

I talked about zero some bias

52:26

that tendency to think another person's

52:28

gain means you're lost that could

52:30

sort of correlate to envy like

52:33

envy is zero some bias as

52:35

nostalgia is to

52:38

declineism. So yeah,

52:40

declineism is this idea that

52:42

life and society are just getting

52:44

worse and worse and worse irreversibly

52:46

and it's all downhill from there.

52:48

The human mind is kind of

52:50

like weird about time. You know,

52:52

we tend to romanticize the past.

52:54

We tend to like overly freak

52:57

out about the present and then

52:59

we sort of like devalue the

53:01

future. We tend to think that

53:03

the future is like dismissible or

53:05

scary. You know, a lot of

53:07

us don't like to think about

53:09

the future or if we do

53:11

think about the future a lot,

53:13

it tends to be with like

53:16

great anxiety. So

53:18

during times of present pain,

53:21

we don't tend to think about

53:23

the future explicitly. We tend to

53:25

sort of idealize the past or

53:27

even a past that we never

53:29

knew. And that sort

53:31

of creates this idea that some

53:34

distant bygone era was superior

53:36

to the present and following

53:38

from there, things are probably

53:40

only getting worse. But actually,

53:42

I went into that

53:44

chapter thinking like, oh, nostalgia is dangerous.

53:46

Like it just paves the way for

53:48

delusion and for the weaponization of figures

53:50

like Donald Trump to say make America

53:52

great again and stuff like that. But

53:55

then I talked to a bunch of

53:57

scholars of nostalgia and every time I

53:59

talked to academics who are experts

54:01

in the subjects that I'm interested in

54:03

looking into. They always fill me with

54:05

a sense of hope, they always ground

54:07

me, it's a really nice feeling. But

54:09

a lot of these nostalgia scholars are

54:11

saying that actually what's called personal nostalgia

54:13

or the nostalgia that you might have

54:15

of your own memories, even if it's

54:17

a little bit romanticized and not totally

54:19

accurate, it's a coping mechanism that's really

54:21

healthy. It helps us, you know, generate

54:23

a sense of imagination and this hope

54:25

for the future. Like if we romanticize

54:27

a memory that we had, it makes

54:29

us feel like, oh, maybe I could

54:31

have memories that are that positive again.

54:33

It helps you dream of days to

54:35

come. Nostalgia only starts to get sinister

54:38

when public populist figures from,

54:41

you know, political figures to

54:43

influencers even start to weaponize

54:45

and exploit visions of a

54:47

distant past that never existed

54:50

as a way to catastrophize

54:52

the current moment and sell

54:54

the public on a vision

54:56

of the future based on

54:59

that total revision of the

55:01

past. And then

55:03

there's also, like you're

55:05

saying, this idea of nostalgia relates so

55:07

much to populist politics, make America

55:10

great again. You mentioned that not

55:12

just Donald Trump, but George Bush

55:14

has used it, Bill Clinton used

55:16

it, Ronald Reagan used it, you

55:19

know, it is a very popular

55:21

way to get people to

55:24

believe that there will be this

55:26

resurrection of this old kind

55:29

of perfection that we lost

55:31

through, you know, depending on

55:33

who's talking some modern process.

55:36

And yeah, I think that it's

55:38

really important to get

55:40

a grip on these

55:43

biases and we may

55:45

not be able to do it

55:47

with other people, but there is

55:49

hope in us doing it for

55:51

ourselves. But, you know, you mentioned

55:53

it's difficult to get people to

55:55

face their own biases, but have

55:57

you found a way way,

56:00

even though it's difficult to use

56:02

this information that you have to

56:04

perhaps get to the

56:07

people who would be less

56:10

willing to confront their own

56:12

biases. Like, do you feel

56:14

like just learning about these

56:16

biases alone can just get

56:18

into people's heads enough that

56:20

maybe something rearranges a bit?

56:23

Sometimes. It depends on the bias.

56:29

So there's one bias in the

56:31

book called the illusory truth effect,

56:33

which describes our penchant to hear

56:36

something repeated multiple times and then

56:38

mistake it as true. You

56:41

know, sort of confuse processing fluency

56:43

as it's called with accuracy. And

56:46

unfortunately, with a bias like that,

56:49

even an awareness of it doesn't

56:51

help. Maybe does the opposite.

56:53

Yeah. If we hear something

56:56

over and over and over again, even

56:58

if it's like blatantly untrue and possible

57:00

or whatever, we really do tend

57:02

to internalize it as a fact.

57:05

And so the sort of counter to

57:07

that might just be to like, spread

57:10

more accurate information, you

57:12

know, like, as much as possible

57:14

to make accurate information sound catchier

57:16

and that's more engaging and more

57:19

easy to repeat and stuff like

57:21

that. But with some of

57:23

the other biases like sunk cost fallacy

57:25

and decline ism actually have really

57:28

found that at least for me becoming

57:30

aware of them has influenced

57:32

my behavior in some capacity

57:35

related to the sunk cost fallacy.

57:37

There is a study that I

57:40

quote in that chapter that talks

57:42

about additive versus subtractive solution bias,

57:44

basically like as human beings naturally,

57:46

but especially growing up in consumer

57:48

society. We tend to think that

57:50

in order to solve a problem,

57:53

any problem, we should add something

57:55

to the equation rather than taking

57:57

something away. So this study

57:59

involves presenting participants with a

58:01

set of colored blocks and a sort

58:03

of like visual puzzle that they could

58:06

solve by either adding or subtracting colored

58:08

blocks. And the much more

58:10

efficient way to solve the problem would

58:12

be to take a block away, but

58:14

the vast majority of participants opted for

58:16

the much more cumbersome way of

58:19

like adding a whole bunch of blocks to

58:21

solve the problem, which just so like has

58:23

deep-seated this is. And I find

58:25

it in my life in so many different

58:27

ways, like whenever I am struggling with a

58:30

certain anxiety or even just like clutter

58:32

in my house, I mean get this,

58:34

I was looking at my junk drawer

58:36

in my home the other week and

58:38

I was just like, oh god what

58:40

a mess. You know what would solve

58:42

this? If I went to the container

58:44

store and got some like acrylic drawer

58:46

organizers, you know, like that would solve

58:48

the problem. It didn't naturally occur to

58:50

me to be like, no, just throw

58:52

some things away and this

58:54

applies to, you know, different areas

58:57

of life. Like that relationship that

58:59

I described in that chapter, whenever we were

59:01

experiencing our worst moments, I used to think like, you

59:03

know, you know what we need to solve our problems?

59:05

We need to go on

59:07

another vacation or replace our

59:09

furniture or like add

59:12

something maximalist to our lives. It

59:14

really did not occur to me

59:16

to maybe like break up.

59:19

Yeah, I found

59:21

that with some of these biases

59:23

and awareness of them has really

59:25

helped especially because they're so interesting

59:27

to learn about and I found

59:30

just personally and anecdotally when a

59:32

subject is fun to

59:34

learn about, when it provokes curiosity

59:36

and it's like fun to talk

59:38

to other people about, then it's

59:40

also in a way like easier

59:43

to apply because I don't feel

59:45

so attacked by it. It's

59:47

not just like some boring idea or

59:49

some shaming thing. It's more like, oh,

59:51

this is so interesting that the human

59:53

brain works this way. I see it

59:56

working in me and I

59:58

think I would like to choose on my own. volition

1:00:00

to maybe make decisions differently

1:00:02

with that awareness. Absolutely.

1:00:04

And I loved the part

1:00:06

that you talked about rhyme

1:00:09

as reasons related to this,

1:00:12

where some kind

1:00:14

of piece of rhyming

1:00:16

information will not only stick

1:00:18

in your mind, but maybe,

1:00:20

you know, give you some

1:00:23

kind of sense of pleasure with language.

1:00:26

Yeah. Yeah. In that

1:00:28

illusory truth effect chapter, which is

1:00:30

really about like the power of repetition

1:00:32

and language to make you feel like

1:00:34

something is true, I talk about

1:00:36

like some other speech devices that

1:00:38

make a statement feel truer, even

1:00:40

if it's not. And yeah, one

1:00:42

of them is rhyme. There's

1:00:44

a, yeah, this effect called the rhyme is

1:00:47

reason effect, which in studies of

1:00:49

the rhyme is reason effect. Scientists have

1:00:51

found that the phrase woes unite

1:00:53

foes is evaluated to

1:00:55

feel more truthful than woes unite

1:00:57

enemies, even though they mean the

1:00:59

exact same thing, one of them

1:01:01

rhymes. And so it

1:01:04

really goes to show like the

1:01:06

power of rhyming political slogans to,

1:01:08

you know, spread information for better

1:01:10

and for worse. And so,

1:01:12

you know, like some of these linguistic tactics can

1:01:14

be weaponized in a really dangerous way, but we

1:01:16

can also use them for good as well. The

1:01:19

last question I want to ask you is in

1:01:21

your opinion from your research, is there one

1:01:26

bias that you think that as

1:01:28

a culture and as individuals or

1:01:30

maybe a combination of biases that

1:01:33

would best serve us going forward

1:01:35

in the information age, in the

1:01:37

AI age, whatever's coming next, is

1:01:40

there one that you found was

1:01:42

the one that you kind of

1:01:44

wanted to scream from the rooftops? Yeah,

1:01:50

I mean, the overconfidence bias one

1:01:52

does come to mind because I

1:01:55

find that we tend to

1:01:57

demand overconfidence in our leaders.

1:02:00

even when it behooves no one for them

1:02:02

to have it. We

1:02:04

don't really accept

1:02:06

very well when an expert claims

1:02:09

not to know or not

1:02:11

to have a definitive answer. That's

1:02:13

not very engaging. It's not very

1:02:15

comforting. And so, whether we're talking

1:02:18

to doctors or watching politicians give

1:02:20

speeches or whether we're listening to

1:02:23

business leaders, we really want them

1:02:25

to portray overconfidence. And as the

1:02:27

world becomes more volatile

1:02:30

and technologically driven and things,

1:02:33

well, I guess not more, the world has always been

1:02:35

pretty volatile, but as the world

1:02:37

becomes more technologically volatile, I

1:02:39

think it would really help

1:02:41

for each of us to

1:02:43

maybe not expect and demand

1:02:45

overconfidence as much in our

1:02:48

leaders because it will

1:02:50

only incentivize them to bullshit us.

1:02:53

Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. Well,

1:02:55

thank you, Amanda, so much. This has

1:02:57

been such a great conversation. And I

1:03:00

just loved your book. And I really

1:03:02

hope that everybody goes and gets a

1:03:04

copy of it because it's information

1:03:06

that was comforting to me, was

1:03:08

scary to me, but also I

1:03:10

think overall just like knowledge

1:03:13

is comforting even

1:03:16

though a lot of times it's

1:03:18

not comforting. So... Yeah, it's

1:03:20

all of it everywhere, everything all

1:03:22

at once. Exactly. And I

1:03:24

know that you've got something coming up that's

1:03:26

very exciting and very relevant to your book.

1:03:29

Would you tell us about it? Oh, yeah,

1:03:31

of course. Well, yeah, so the book came

1:03:33

out April 9th. And of course,

1:03:36

I am not ready to stop

1:03:38

talking about magical overthinking. So I

1:03:40

am launching a podcast

1:03:42

that was inspired by the

1:03:44

book called Magical Overthinkers. And

1:03:47

it will premiere Wednesday, May 15th,

1:03:50

wherever you get your podcasts. And

1:03:53

it's been so much fun to work

1:03:55

on so far. Basically every episode is

1:03:57

dedicated to a different buzzy, conf... founding

1:04:00

subjects that we can't stop overthinking

1:04:03

about from narcissism

1:04:05

to imposter syndrome and I

1:04:07

interview a really fascinating

1:04:10

charismatic expert guest about the subject

1:04:12

to put our overthinking to bed

1:04:14

once and for all Man,

1:04:17

I'm really excited for this and

1:04:19

I know that people can't subscribe

1:04:21

on their podcast app yet But

1:04:24

you all can follow the show

1:04:26

on Instagram at magical over thinkers

1:04:29

Please do and Amanda I'm

1:04:31

so grateful that I got to have you

1:04:33

on the show and I really hope that

1:04:35

you will come back someday Because I'm sure

1:04:37

there are so many more things that we

1:04:40

could talk about. I would love that.

1:04:42

Thank you for having me This

1:04:48

was American hysteria Make

1:04:51

sure you follow Amanda at Amanda

1:04:53

underscore Montel on Instagram and also

1:04:55

make sure you pick up a

1:04:58

copy of her book the age

1:05:00

of magical Overthinking you can find

1:05:02

those links in our show notes

1:05:05

If you want to get more of our show

1:05:07

or if you'd really like to support us The

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best way you can do it is by going

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