0:00

Welcome. Welcome. Welcome an armchair expert experts on expert.

0:03

I'm Dan Sheppard. I'm joined by Monica monsoon and that's it.

0:09

Well, there's just, we're interviewing a Dan, another Dan Daniel Goleman.

0:12

Daniel Goleman. Yeah. Yes.

0:14

Not unlike Daniel Shepard. That's right now, Daniel Goldman is a PhD and an author and science journalist that wrote for the New York times reporting on the brain and behavioral sciences, where he was twice nominated for a Pulitzer prize.

0:27

He also went to Harvard.

0:29

Now, of course, everyone has heard the term emotional intelligence and Daniel is largely responsible for making that a popular word in the zeitgeists because he wrote the book, emotional intelligence drawing on groundbreaking brain and behavioral research.

0:46

Goldman shows the factors at work when people have high IQ flounder in those of modest IQ do surprisingly well, these factors, which include self-awareness self-management and empathy, add up to a different way of being smart and they aren't fixed at birth.

1:00

This was so fun to talk about because I'm really glad that EEQ is being finally like recognized as important.

1:08

Yes. Valued. You have a high IQ.

1:10

I

1:10

mean,

1:13

yeah. That's my guess. So please enjoy Daniel Goldman.

1:16

He's Hello,

1:31

Dr. Goldman. Well, hello there.

1:33

Hi Dax. Hi Monica.

1:36

Sorry for our tardiness. I'm going to blame my children.

1:39

They're zooming from home and they just crashed our space and it took me a minute to get rid of them.

1:44

Do you have children? I have grandchildren.

1:46

Oh my God. Goodness.

1:48

And ages from three, do a 21.

1:53

Wow. Six of them, which is nice, but they're not here.

1:56

Okay. So we could speak the same language about the emotional wave of having children, which has been the most profound experience in my life.

2:04

What is the experience of grandchildren?

2:08

Well, it turns out there's a latent grandparent gene that activates when you first told your first grandchild and it just floods you with oxytocin.

2:18

Monica, do you have kids?

2:20

I don't. This makes me want to give my parents grandkids so bad.

2:25

Yeah. Well, that's the nice thing of being a grandparent.

2:27

So this gene just flood you with feel-good hormones.

2:31

And so you just love your kids.

2:33

Yeah, it helps a lot.

2:36

Well, I used to say to my wife, when the kids were screaming and crying, you know, where they were babies and mom gets oxytocin a lot longer than dad.

2:44

And I said, you know, this does sound differently to me because I don't have as much oxytocin as you Oxytocin

2:49

helps a lot.

2:50

It does. Yeah.

2:53

I'm surprised they haven't figured out how to synthesize it and use it.

2:57

It's coming. I'm sure.

2:58

I'm sure.

3:00

But when you have the grandkids, I have a fantasy that goes like this.

3:05

Oh my gosh. I'll hold them.

3:07

And I'll just be able to have all the love without the panic that I have to do this.

3:13

Right. Because it's not my job.

3:15

Well, no. The great advantage of grandchildren is that when you hold them and love them, you feel really great.

3:21

And they do. And then when they start doing something, that's a problem.

3:25

You hand them back.

3:27

Yeah.

3:27

That

3:27

sounds

3:30

nice. No, that's a perfect arrangement.

3:32

Yeah. I heard an interesting debate once between, do you know who Sam Harris is?

3:37

I've known Sam for years. I know him. Well,

3:39

he was debating.

3:40

I want to say it was Paul bloom.

3:43

That makes the most sense to me, but maybe it wasn't Paul, but they were talking about empathy and they were talking about this biological predisposition to care most about your immediate family.

3:54

And it was Paul, right?

3:56

Someone was making the argument. What if you could extend that out to everybody?

3:59

And the other person was saying, well, no, you have to prioritize who needs your time and attention in your investment or the whole thing would collapse.

4:06

And I found that kind of a compelling argument, Sam

4:10

and I actually met in a meditation context.

4:13

Oh, that makes sense.

4:15

Yeah. And he's talking about loving kindness, meditation, where you teach your brain to extend the love.

4:22

You feel naturally for people close to you beyond that circle to people who are just friends or strangers or people you bump into, or everybody everywhere.

4:33

And the Dalai Lama who, who I've also known for a long time says, you know, the hardest part is that jump from people you love naturally to people that you just know.

4:43

That's the big challenge.

4:47

Yeah. Now, can I just tell you anecdotally and experience that we've had in something we do?

4:52

It's not that meditation, but I was acting like a really deplorable jerk one day at work to some people.

5:00

And Monica said later, what if those people were armed cherries, meaning people that listen to this show who I value so greatly, it's insane.

5:08

And I was mortified to think that I would have been treating some arm cherries that way.

5:13

And that's so weird. Cause that's just some mental construct.

5:17

It's really interesting. So there you have some mental line people who are okay to treat us a jerk versus people who it's not okay to treat it.

5:25

I think we all have that line.

5:27

I

5:27

think

5:27

intellectually,

5:27

I

5:27

know

5:31

To be treated like a jerk and then quite often, emotionally I am unable to get out of the reptilian brain.

5:37

Well, yeah, it's nice to strive for. I think it's aspirational that we should treat everybody like not a jerk, but actually that's not the way our brains are designed.

5:46

We have to do some rearrangement.

5:48

Luckily that can happen.

5:51

But I've employed that trick really, since Monica said it, I'll be behind someone in traffic and I'm growing more and more agitated not doing it my way, my way is the only way.

5:59

And I'm building this whole story about them and mother, terrible person, all these things.

6:04

And then I imagine they're inside listening to this show and then I'm completely embarrassed and I'm humiliated.

6:09

And then it becomes this way for me to not be Interesting.

6:15

Yeah. So you have empathy for the people that you like and other people you don't bother with.

6:22

Wow. That's probably true.

6:24

That's hard to hear, but It's

6:26

all of us. Oh, Oh yeah. I'm not saying you Okay.

6:30

But, well, you were accurate when you said me though.

6:35

All of us. Yeah. But you know, there are three kinds of empathy.

6:38

Those there's really important to understand. And I know you've heard this before, but let me review it again.

6:42

There's cognitive empathy. You know how people think you can be a really good communicator because you know the language that will make sense to them, it's really important for podcasts.

6:52

Or for example, when I was at the New York times as a journalist, this is astonishing.

6:56

We wrote for the eighth grade level of understanding.

7:01

Yeah. It's surprising, isn't it? But that's the level at which everybody gets it.

7:07

Yeah. That's great. So that's cognitive empathy and then emotional empathy.

7:11

You know how people feel because you sense it yourself.

7:14

And those two are important and helpful, but they can be used to manipulate.

7:20

The third kind of empathy is the most important one puts called technically empathic concern.

7:26

You care about the other person in the first two, you can get them, you know, what's going to move them, but you don't care.

7:35

So you want a spouse.

7:38

You want a parent, you want to teach her, you want a boss who has that third kind of empathy.

7:44

Yeah. Because it's been pointed out that sociopaths are often the most empathetic in the first two categories you listed where they're quite good at knowing exactly what you'd like to hear and how to manipulate you.

7:57

That's exactly right. That's the diagnosis of sociopath is that they have none of the third kind.

8:02

They don't care about you at all.

8:05

How do you nurture the third category?

8:06

Like how do you expand it?

8:09

How do you exercise it? I think aspirationally and morally, we would all hope to have a lot of the third category, which is not to say we do.

8:18

I think the kids probably get it automatically by having a parent or caretakers or family who really love and care for them.

8:28

And so it's part of their emotional repertoire.

8:30

And I'm a big advocate of teaching all of these things in schools.

8:35

It's called social, emotional learning.

8:36

It's a big movement now.

8:38

Yeah. My kids are deeply embroiled in it.

8:41

They go to a charter school and there's whole days that are dedicated to these topics in their curriculum.

8:47

Yeah. And there's an abbreviation for it.

8:49

They always, yeah. Yeah.

8:51

Social-emotional learning. They're very lucky because it's spotty.

8:55

It's a big movement globally, but it's idiosyncratic where it is.

8:59

So if your kids have it in school, that's great.

9:01

The nice thing about SEL is this designed.

9:04

So it doesn't take any time from academic learning, but it adds, how am I going to manage myself?

9:10

Am I aware of my feelings and what they're doing to me?

9:13

Can I manage them well, can I tune into other people?

9:17

Know what they're feeling? Can I get along with them?

9:20

Harmonize, collaborate. These are skills for life.

9:22

And you know, kids need, we don't need people who are only good at cognitive abilities, but suck at emotional intelligence because they are the jokes in the world.

9:36

Yeah. But you want to be working with married, to involve with people who have the full emotional repertoire.

9:43

So I think it's really important. Kids get this in school, particularly because of the decimation of the American family.

9:50

I mean, you're lucky your kids are lucky if there's a mom and a dad in a home more and more kids don't have that.

9:59

Yeah. So this is a way to kind of ensure that kids will get it right.

10:03

And there's this window of opportunity neurologically into the mid twenties, actually where the brain, the emotional social circuit, where the brain is taking shape.

10:12

So I want to give what I believe to be an example.

10:15

And you tell me if I'm wrong, but a cool thing I heard not too long ago, as we hear stuff nonstop because we're parents of young kids is when two little kids are having it out on the playground about some situation and the parents go in or the teacher goes in and they intervene and they stop it.

10:30

And they say, you know, you got to share and you should do this and blank, blank, blank.

10:33

What you've robbed them up is the moment where they steal the toy.

10:37

The other kid cries, they see that the kids cry, they themselves internalize that they've just hurt somebody and they go, Oh, that doesn't feel good.

10:47

Would you say that's part of this emotional learning?

10:50

I would say that a lot of emotional learning is from other kids, from working things out and from maybe feeling bad that you made that kid cry or feeling good that you're having fun playing with the kid.

11:04

That's part of normal learning when parents intervene or teachers intervene and just direct kids at what to do, then the kids lose the learning opportunity.

11:14

A better intervention might be, Oh, how do you think you made Sammy feel he's crying now that is encouraged the child to empathize, to tune in and to let them work it out themselves.

11:28

Say, and I'm not trying to Pat myself on the back, but I think Monaco attest to this as well.

11:31

My kids will come in.

11:33

Like they're crying. I'm embarrassed.

11:35

I blah. And I'm like, Oh my God, I'm so delighted to hear you say that.

11:40

I couldn't say I was embarrassed. I was like 40 years old.

11:44

I remember I do remember Dell to the youngest, like accidentally hurt Lincoln or something.

11:49

And Lincoln was crying really hard and was just kind of standing there.

11:54

And then she was like, I'm really embarrassed.

11:56

I'm sorry. And I was like, Oh my God, what a beautiful thing to say right now, as opposed to running away or being That's

12:04

really good. And actually the first part of emotional tangents is being able to name your feelings.

12:10

Yeah. You know, a lot of people actually are so out of touch with their feelings that they don't know what they're feeling at the time.

12:18

And the basis of this all is self-awareness emotional.

12:21

Self-awareness. Yeah. And I want you to tell us about this because I think we're all very familiar with this term emotional intelligence, which you coined and wrote a book about 25 years ago.

12:31

We're on the anniversary. And I don't know that people actually know all the mechanics.

12:36

Sure. Well, here's the model. And by the way, I didn't coin the term.

12:39

My friend, Peter salivate, who then was an assistant professor at Yale, wrote a little article called emotional intelligence in a very obscure journal.

12:48

It doesn't exist today. I was a journalist at the New York times, reading these obscure journals.

12:53

I thought that is dynamite is so counter-intuitive putting emotion together with intelligence, but it means being intelligent about emotions.

13:01

Anyway, Peter's now the president of Yale.

13:04

I think there's a little bit of a knee jerk sometimes with this topic, which is like, Oh, you just want to be so indulgent with all these kids, my feelings, I didn't, you know, but I don't think that's what anyone's proposing.

13:15

Right? I know that's a common error about emotional intelligence, the other common areas that just means being nice, which is also correct.

13:23

You can be very firm in what you feel and what you want.

13:26

So there are four parts self-awareness knowing what you're feeling, using that information to manage your disruptive emotions and marshal your better emotions, positivity, enthusiasm, knowing what other people feel, empathy, tuning into them, and then using that all to have effective relationships.

13:47

So basically it means being a successful human being as a human being and one of the most important parts of it, that is what you alluded to.

13:58

It's technically it's called cognitive control.

14:01

It means you're getting really pissed off at someone you're really angry or you're getting really scared when this COVID locked down.

14:09

It's easier for people to exaggerate risk and to freak themselves out.

14:12

And cognitive control means, you know, that you're getting out of control.

14:18

And instead of doing something unhelpful, like, okay, I'm going to have a lot to drink.

14:23

For example, this is a basis of alcoholism for a lot of people, is self-medication or drug drug use or yelling at someone I'm going to manage my feelings, cognitive control and kind of control from neuroscience.

14:38

Point of view is very simple.

14:40

It means that a strip of circuitry in the left prefrontal cortex just behind the forehead is able to manage your emotional centers.

14:48

So they don't take over your thinking brain and make you do something you're going to really regret later.

14:55

Yeah, I think it'd be helpful to just say a reader's digest version of the brain is, you know, it developed in stages as we evolved in the center of your brain is the reptilian part.

15:04

So it's very instinctual, it's reactionary.

15:05

And then your impulse control, all these things are kind of mid brains.

15:09

And then the last thing to develop is this prefrontal cortex.

15:12

And it is in charge of forecasting into the future and monitoring, who do I really want to be?

15:17

All those kind of elevated, I guess, thoughts Taking

15:21

in information, making good decisions.

15:22

That's all prefrontal.

15:24

It's the brain's executive center.

15:26

So the good boss of the brain, the bad boss of the brain is the emotional centers in the midbrain.

15:31

Actually you could call it reptilian and it has all of our emotions, the pleasant ones, by the way, you don't want to get rid of those.

15:40

But the ones that really screw us up, the anger, the anxiety that comes from the midbrain, particularly its structure called the amygdala, which is the brain's radar for threat.

15:50

That Migdal is always asking right now, am I safe?

15:53

And if it thinks that it's not, the brain is designed so that the amygdala can take over the prefrontal cortex and that is bad news, it was good news.

16:04

By the way, in early evolution, early prehistory helped us survive in the Savannah and the jungle.

16:10

Wherever you have to do something very quickly.

16:13

If you hear that rustle in the bushes, if you're going to survive and pass your genes and structure the brain on to us, which happened presumably, and but today it's facing symbolic challenges, symbolic threats that guy's not treating me fairly.

16:28

And you can overreact to that.

16:30

This guy's pissing me off so much.

16:32

I'm going to slug him. That's the way the amygdala thinks it's very childlike.

16:35

So when the brain develops like your kids are right now going through a five to seven shift, what other ages?

16:42

Six and seven. Six and seven.

16:44

Yeah. So there's a real difference in every teacher knows it's between kindergartners.

16:48

You have to spend a lot of energy, getting them just to focus and pay attention.

16:52

And third graders, fourth graders, because the prefrontal areas are growing.

16:59

Every parent sees the external signs of a child becoming more mature.

17:05

But what you're seeing is the outer face of what's going on in that kid's brain, which is growth and development.

17:12

And every parent, and hopefully every teacher will help kids get it right in the first place.

17:18

For example, I was in a school in Spanish, Harlem, very poor section of Manhattan.

17:23

The kids there mostly came from a housing project next to the school, very traumatizing childhood.

17:32

The teacher told me a kid came in upset.

17:35

She said, what's wrong? She said, I just saw someone who was shot.

17:38

And she asked her class, how many people, if you know, somebody who's been shot, every hand went up.

17:42

I thought, no, this is going to be really chaotic classroom.

17:45

They're very quiet and very focused.

17:47

And the said, here's why every day they do something.

17:51

They call a belly buddies, they get their favorite stuffed animal.

17:55

They lie down on the floor, they put it on their belly and they watch a cries on the in-breath fall on the out-breath rise on the in breath, fall on their breath.

18:03

When they get distracted, they're my wanders.

18:05

They notice the one. They'd bring it back to the breath, to the mantra.

18:09

Well, it's kind, it's very similar to what goes on, but you know, it's basically mind training.

18:14

It's like when you go to the gym and you lift a weight with every rep, that muscle gets that much stronger.

18:20

Every time you bring your mind back, like those kids are doing, it makes the neurocircuitry for focus that much stronger.

18:27

And here's the two for the same circuitry that helps you focus and pay attention, calms you down.

18:33

Biggest distractions for anyone are our emotions.

18:38

What that guy said to me, why didn't she answer my, you know, all of those kinds of thoughts are emotional distractors and they take our focus away from what it is we have to do right now.

18:50

If you help children strengthen the circuitry early on, then that's a gift of giving them for the rest of their life.

18:58

Oh wow. When you were saying that, it reminded me of this thing I read, which was, if kids are having a really bad emotional tantrum tantrum, that if you put them on a swing and you swing them, the part of your brain required to equalize your equilibrium requires so much focus that it actually will do that.

19:17

It'll it'll interrupt that Circuit.

19:19

Oh, that's interesting. I never heard that one, but I'll tell you a different one.

19:22

Every time you have an emotion that you know, you're getting out of hand and you can tell yourself I'm getting angry.

19:29

Now, you just shifted the energy from your emotional center to your verbal cortex.

19:34

And it starts to change the heft of the negative emotion.

19:38

So naming an emotion is very powerful control mechanism too.

19:43

And the principle is the same as what you're just saying.

19:45

You're shifting the energy from the part of the circuitry of the brain, which is manifesting the emotion to some other part of the brain.

19:52

It's a kind of a distraction strategy.

19:55

My wife and I, when we would have an argument, it didn't matter what it was supposedly about.

20:01

It was actually the same argument at this deeper level because she wrote a book about this.

20:07

I have to recommend is called emotional alchemy.

20:09

And she talks about 10 of the most common patterns.

20:13

Like unlovability feeling that you're never going to have someone tune into you.

20:18

Nobody cares.

20:19

Fear of being abandoned, things like that.

20:23

These are primal patterns that are getting triggered and you know, the way a habit gets formed, you have a trigger, you go through the same sequence, like whatever happened to you that you are now recognize.

20:35

And then there's some kind of reward.

20:38

The reward is that you don't have to face the deeper feeling like total, like I'm wiped out because someone abandoned me.

20:47

I'm helpless. If I'm alone, you don't have to feel that.

20:50

And so you might cling, or you might preemptively abandon.

20:53

She writes about this.

20:56

So I claim, and then when it's not reciprocated, I abandoned.

20:59

There you go.

21:02

Basically, what's going on is an underlying fear of abandonment.

21:05

And at the core of that fear is a very deep terror actually, that you don't want to feel.

21:10

So anyway, and once she recognized and I recognize, then we'd have our fight and then we separate.

21:17

And then we think about it. We come back and say, you know, when I was a kid, we would identify the childhood source to each other.

21:25

But then all of a sudden we had great affection for each other as this like wounded other kids.

21:29

But it's because we could see the pattern.

21:32

So if you want to change a habit like that, you have to become familiar with the pattern.

21:37

You have to know what the triggers are, so you can recognize it as it's happening and then change what you do and get a better reward, Man.

21:47

You're so right to the empathy part.

21:49

So I think when couples get in a fight, I'll just speak for myself.

21:52

Sometimes I'm on my wife and I get in a fight.

21:55

She's fighting her mother and I'm fighting my dad.

21:58

Right. But we're both taking it so personal.

22:01

And then to your point, with the times I can recognize like, Oh yeah.

22:05

When she was vulnerable, this person exploited that, well, I'm not going to do that.

22:11

But boy, I feel so bad that that's why this is the reaction that this poor person had their vulnerability exploited.

22:17

And through that, I can find compassion like you're saying, But

22:22

let's go back to how that began.

22:24

Usually what happens is that you or she does something that triggers that primal pattern in you and when you're triggered, it triggers something in her.

22:34

It's a primal pattern.

22:35

So basically it's two amygdalas having simultaneous hijacks and you could never settle things.

22:42

Well, when you're having a big, the hijacks, now I have a friend, John Gottman, we know John, you talked to John.

22:51

Yeah. So John has the love lab at university of saddle.

22:54

And he advises a couple separate for about 20 minutes.

22:59

So the amygdala can calm down and then come back and talk it over.

23:03

That makes sense. I was going to bring that up. Actually, when you talk about the different areas of your brain is I remember reading this book on killing and it talked about in world war one in the trench warfare, something like 40% of the guys that had been killed, they didn't fire their weapon.

23:15

And they're like, well, what happened? Why wouldn't they have shot us?

23:18

Someone was running out. It seems like common sense.

23:21

And then they come to find out, well, once your heart rate gets above a certain level, you're actually can't use your frontal lobe.

23:29

Right? The survival instinct.

23:32

Yeah. Your heart rate is an external monitor of what's happening with your amygdala.

23:37

Oh. So you're having a Migdal. A hijack is your heart rate increases, particularly when it gets really high.

23:43

So you can't very well.

23:45

So it is very easy to drop a bomb on a village from a plane or to use a drone, to kill people because you're not anywhere near the person when you're in trench warfare or hand to hand combat, it's much harder to kill the other person because it's a person.

24:00

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and they were also saying, as we've stupidly broken down, what we think our responses is to fight or flight, it was a binary option when they really study the animal kingdom.

24:09

What you realize is that like 95% of conflicts actually resolve with posture submit.

24:15

So really the bear goes up on its hind legs.

24:18

Generally the other bear looks down, they don't always fight or run.

24:21

And so we do that too. So they heard that charging person as a posture, a loud bang, okay.

24:28

I give up, I'm going to look down.

24:30

I surrender. Right? And so they hadn't even thought about that.

24:34

And then so all the training for world war II and then Vietnam was training these guys out of letting their heart rate, get that high and then making their instinct to be to fire and not submit, which is why, You

24:45

know, the military has really gone into the study of this physiology in an applied way.

24:51

I'll share with you and your listeners a way to aboard a midline hijack, Oh,

24:56

please. I need it so bad.

24:59

Don't we all? So this is something I understand is being used by Navy seals when they're going into an operation or something, it's very simple.

25:06

You take a very deep breath. So your belly expands.

25:08

You

25:08

hold

25:08

it

25:08

as

25:08

long

25:08

as

25:08

it's

25:12

comfortable.

25:12

And

25:12

then

25:12

you

25:12

exhale

25:12

very

25:12

slowly

25:12

and

25:12

you

25:12

do

25:12

that

25:12

like

25:12

six

25:12

to

25:12

nine

25:20

times. And the research shows that your physiology shifts from that fight or flight response, you're talking about to a recovery, relaxation response, technically sympathetic nervous system parasympathetic.

25:33

And

25:33

it's

25:33

something

25:33

you

25:33

can

25:33

do

25:33

on

25:33

the

25:36

spot. I've been teaching this to a frontline medical people these days who are really stressed out.

25:41

And you know, there are other things you can do that will help you be triggered less often.

25:47

Or if you are triggered less intensely or recover more quickly, the definition of resilience is how long it takes you to recover the quicker your recovery, the better your resilience, because you can't determine when you're going to be triggered.

26:01

Yeah. I can take some control.

26:02

So that exercise, breath, focus that the kids were doing.

26:06

If you do that as an adult, you want just watch your breath, every breath in breath and the out-breath and so on, that actually changes your physiology and your brain circuitry so that you handle hijack situations better.

26:23

It seems too easy. I know, but you're right.

26:25

You're right. That's why people don't do it.

26:28

Cause they're like, Oh, but it works.

26:30

Well, the thing is this Monica, there's a dose response relationship.

26:34

So the more you do it, the better benefit it's like exercise.

26:40

You have to make it a priority.

26:42

It's very easy not to do it.

26:44

I'm like a industrial strength meditator.

26:47

Now I wrote this book altered traits about the research on meditation.

26:51

And now I'm a total believer because I see that it actually pays.

26:56

And so basically the mind training with the breath is that kind of exercise it's shifting your brain circuitry.

27:04

And that takes time just like building muscles takes time or dance.

27:08

Same thing.

27:10

Okay. Now, when you wrote emotional intelligence, I think people traditionally thought an indicator of success.

27:18

However you want to measure that educational achievement, financial, whatever, that IQ would be a predictor of that.

27:26

Sure. And that's not the case, is it?

27:31

Well, it's a little counter intuitive.

27:32

When you're in school.

27:33

IQ is a predictor.

27:34

The kids who get the best grades tend to have the higher IQ.

27:38

When you get in life.

27:39

Then there's a funny thing that happens.

27:43

There's what's called a floor effect.

27:45

Let's say you're going to be an MBA or get a master's in something to accomplish that you need an IQ about a standard deviation above the norm, a hundred 1,415, but everybody else has that high in IQ.

27:58

So then for example, an engineer engineers get hired and now they're working with other engineers have the same background.

28:06

Their IQ is not an advantage.

28:08

It's how they handle themselves and how they handle the relationships that makes them an outstanding performer.

28:13

And that is something we're never taught in school, but everybody knows it from life.

28:19

I've gone around the world, asking people all over, tell me about the worst boss you've ever had and the best boss you've ever had.

28:27

And the best boss in variably defines emotional intelligence.

28:31

And the worst boss is some kind of jerk or pardon me on your podcast and asshole.

28:37

Sure. Or you can say asshole, as much as you'd like, we're free of the FCCS.

28:41

We

28:41

can

28:41

plagiarize

28:41

your

28:41

name

28:50

anyway. So basically to your point, I think that success in school has a lot to do with IQ and afterschool.

28:57

It doesn't have that much to do.

29:00

I think there was a study, a friend of mine did of engineers get this.

29:02

They rated each other. Who's the most effective engineer.

29:05

And it turned out there was zero correlation with IQ, very high correlation with emotional intelligence.

29:11

They were the team leaders.

29:13

They were the people that were very persuasive.

29:15

The people who tuned in, who got along with everyone and who managed themselves well, Well,

29:21

I got to say, anecdotally, I have several different friendship circles, but within that friendship circle, there's no correlation between book smarts or IQ or spatial relation ability and their achievement.

29:34

In fact, more often than not, it's the opposite of that.

29:38

It's people that people want to be around that did they interacting with?

29:42

They get hired over and over again. You know, I

29:45

mean, it's realize this. When I went to my 20th high school reunion and I saw who the most successful kid in my class, I grew up in the central Valley of California, like a big farm town.

29:54

So this 20th high school reunion, the kid who was most successful 20 years out was not the valedictorian, not a kid who had great test scores.

30:04

There's someone who you really enjoyed being with great human being.

30:08

I think that's the story of our lives.

30:10

You want to be friends with people who tuned into you and care about you, who you get along with that's emotional intelligence, not IQ Stay

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33:21

I think the encouraging thing about focusing on emotional intelligence is it is flexible.

33:27

It's not like you're born with an IQ.

33:29

Now you could make an argument. There's obviously they've shown that whether you're in dirty diapers or not, it's going to have an impact, but at a certain point, your IQ is pretty locked in.

33:37

I don't know what age that is. If we would say it's 10 or something, but your emotional IQ, I imagine has a lot more room to expand.

33:44

So if you're hearing this and you're going, Oh, I'd like to succeed in life.

33:46

Oh, it doesn't have to be IQ.

33:48

Emotional intelligence is just as relevant.

33:50

I can expand that. Right.

33:52

Well, this is the nice thing about emotional intelligence IQ, essentially as a metric for how quickly your brain acquires new information.

33:59

It doesn't change much through life, actually emotional intelligence.

34:03

The good news is it's learned and learnable.

34:06

So if you've got it right in the first place, say, SEL, you got it in school or your family.

34:12

What gave it to you? Great.

34:13

But you know, it's like going to the doctor is a profile of strengths and weaknesses and across self-awareness self-management empathy and how you get along with other people in your relationships.

34:25

And I've subdivided that I have a thing called the emotional social competence inventory for people who know you well rate you on obvious indicators of that.

34:35

And then you get it fed back, hopefully in a way it's news to use by her.

34:40

Oh my gosh. Okay. So you would advocate that you hand out this questionnaire to people that are in your life, or how would you No,

34:49

it's used in businesses really for leadership development, particularly.

34:53

Okay. But I think we could all benefit from this.

34:56

Well, he could, but, or you can just ask your friends, someone you trust.

34:59

Well, what do you think are my strengths? What could I get better at?

35:02

You know, and ask like three people and see if they converge.

35:07

So self-awareness, I think we all have an idea of what that is, but how does one evaluate whether they're very self-aware or not?

35:14

What kind of questions could they ask?

35:16

The easiest index of that is how you see yourself versus how other people see you.

35:22

Robert Burns said that the gods, the gift would get us to see ourselves as others see us.

35:26

He was Irish. So he could run gear.

35:29

What

35:29

he's

35:29

saying

35:29

is

35:29

that

35:29

this

35:29

is

35:29

a

35:29

real

35:29

unusual

35:29

information

35:29

to

35:36

get. It's kind of precious, really to get someone, to be candid with you.

35:40

Like, what am I really good at and what I'm not so good at.

35:43

And then to compare that with how you see yourself, the bigger the gap, the more work you can do in self-awareness.

35:51

I would say self-management, you can do a rough index because it's on the one hand damping down or not being taken over for so long by your disturbing feelings, my anger and my fear or whatever.

36:06

My self doubt, marshaling, enthusiasm, passion towards your goals or staying positive.

36:14

When things turn bad, can you do that?

36:17

That's part of self-management and then empathy.

36:20

There is a, it's a little tricky because people may think they're really good at empathy, but people around them may not agree.

36:27

That's why you want to ask someone else.

36:30

Yeah. I imagine it'd be hard to tell somebody that they are lacking in one of these.

36:37

You know, I feel like if someone asked me, I'd be very nervous to tell them the truth.

36:43

Yes and no, it depends on the strength in the kind of your relationship.

36:48

If you trust each other and you can be candid with each other, then you can have this conversation.

36:56

Yeah. You look at your friendship network and then you think, well, who are really the people I can be honest with and who are honest with me?

37:04

That's a smaller subset.

37:06

Always. Yeah.

37:07

Now what kind of impact does your emotional intelligence have on your health?

37:16

Oh, there's a very strong correlation because of the relationship between your emotional state and your health.

37:22

If you're very positive, it's good for your immune system, your cardiovascular system, the body likes positive emotions.

37:29

And if you're stressed out, then all of that suffers.

37:33

So being able to manage stress, which basically comes down to how do you handle your anxiety is really important for your health.

37:40

And that's been shown in a zillion ways.

37:42

Now, very strong relationship.

37:44

People who get angry easily from childhood on are more likely to die early.

37:52

Aha. And it's been found with all kinds of emotions.

37:54

So you said you're 12 years in a, so one of the classics, there is people use a substance alcohol to manage their emotions instead of finding a way to do it without that substance, which is what AI is all about.

38:13

It's brilliant. Yeah.

38:16

And I do think everything's so binary in the way people think, but I think people can identify what an alcoholic is doing.

38:21

We're trying to regulate our emotions with this pill, this drink, this powder.

38:26

And yet they miss the fact that they're regulating it through relationships, through food.

38:33

Many of us are attempting regulate our emotional state with something external.

38:38

Well, I would say that the more you can do it internally, the better, but if you have a spouse, it turns out that each of you is a biological part of the other system.

38:50

One of the great sadnesses is sources of grief.

38:54

When a spouse dies is that you lose that capacity.

38:58

My wife and I hug each other every morning.

39:01

It feels great.

39:02

But that's part of my managing my own internal state and probably the same for her.

39:09

And there's a hundred ways in which a romantic partner or a life partner does this for each other.

39:16

So part of the sadness of losing someone like that, a divorce the same is that you have to recalibrate in a deep way, how you handle yourself.

39:30

Mm yeah. Woof.

39:31

Did you read blink by chance?

39:33

The Malcolm Gladwell book?

39:35

Yeah. Well, the thing I liked in there was I also think we have this kind of flawed understanding of emotions versus logic.

39:43

And it's always been pitched to us in this kind of again, binary way where they're in opposition to one another or that logic is the thing to listen to.

39:52

But men are logical. Women are emotional.

39:54

Yes, yes. Tends to be the party line.

39:58

Yeah. But the thing that I really liked is he cites a study where they asked major league batters, how they decide whether or not they're going to hit a pitch and they all have an explanation and it's a cognitive explanation.

40:11

Well, I look at their shoulder and when it drops the blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

40:14

Well then they've figured out how long before the ball is wound up to when they have to make the decision.

40:20

And what they immediately realize is they know how long it takes for all those things to happen in the brain.

40:24

And so that can't be happening.

40:26

So they couldn't possibly be noticing that then thinking about that, then doing this.

40:30

And then they hook up their brains to like a mini MRI or something and they watch them take swings.

40:36

And it's just the emotional core of their brain fires.

40:39

Every time there's no prefontal stuff going on.

40:41

And you realize, Oh, the best batters are making a decision of what ball to hit based on an emotion.

40:50

Yeah, probably the basal ganglia is involved.

40:52

Oh, the basal ganglia is a more primitive part of the brain than the emotional center it's beneath it.

40:58

It's just above the spinal cord.

40:59

And our habits are housed in the basal ganglia.

41:02

And so someone who's at the professional level in baseball has swung that bat hundreds of thousands of times.

41:10

And the basal ganglia learns a lesson each time when I did that, when I swung that way, I hit the ball.

41:18

And when I did it that way I missed basically what Malcolm is saying is that primitive parts of the brain that are pre-verbal that is that act before we can think in words are making this decision that going to swing for that ball or not.

41:34

And it's because of your lifetime of experience.

41:37

And so much of what we do is automatic automatize this way.

41:43

Yeah. Oh, it's so fascinating.

41:44

Can you either alleviate or tell me I'm on the right path to be panicking?

41:49

I feel like with the increase communication between younger people and myself too happening via social media happening via text happening, you know, almost never even a voice call anymore.

42:03

What impact is that having on this generation's emotional intelligence We're

42:09

waiting to see, but I I'm a little nervous about it because I think that people are being de-skilled kids who are sitting at home and going to school online.

42:18

Aren't having a chance to hang out with other kids.

42:21

And the brain is designed to learn from life when it comes to emotional intelligence.

42:27

So not being able to be with your friends means you're missing some lessons.

42:33

And I don't care how old your two year old is one set of lessons.

42:36

Five-year-old another ten-year-old and other 15 year old, another, but they're all from face-to-face interaction.

42:43

That's what we're designed for.

42:45

And the brain picks up the richest signals face-to-face in real life.

42:51

There's a dimunition for example, on zoom, you can't have eye contact because you either look at the face or you look at the camera, you can't do both.

43:01

The cameras should be in the middle.

43:03

Yeah. Yeah. It should be right over your face.

43:07

Yeah. Wherever the face is used to be able to place it.

43:10

Yeah. That would be great. Yeah. So we're reinventing that hardware here, but in a good way.

43:16

But anyway, so there's a dimunition so the brain doesn't get the signals.

43:21

It would pick up in real life if you're next to someone like at a meeting or at dinner.

43:27

And you sense what that person is feeling because the social networks of the brain, which we didn't talk about the prefrontal and they're designed to make an instantaneous unconscious brain to brain link that passes emotional messages back and forth, and also synchronizes your movements and all that.

43:48

So you have a good rapport that happens when you're in person.

43:52

It doesn't happen as well online, but seeing a picture is better than a phone call, but a phone isn't bad because the voice carries a lot of emotional information.

44:02

The worst is text alone.

44:06

Yeah. Texting someone or emailing.

44:08

The reason is this.

44:10

Particularly if you're having an amygdala hijack, you're really worked up and you're a little pissed off at this person.

44:15

You furiously type a message and you hit send that's the That's

44:20

my favorite time to write an email.

44:21

I'm so inspired.

44:24

I always recommend, never send an email when you've been drinking a lot, not a problem for you, but late at night, don't it wait until the next morning because the brain thinks all of the emotional nuance goes with a message, but it doesn't.

44:39

It just is the words that opens a door to lots of misunderstanding.

44:42

It's basically called flaming.

44:44

And it's been a problem on the internet since it began.

44:48

Will you tell me the science behind how your brain is communicating emotions with another person?

44:52

Is it visual? Am I detecting like visual cues from your face Is

44:57

everything. So your facial expression, do you know the work of Paul Ekman?

45:01

He came up with a map of facial muscle movement.

45:06

As I recall, it was backwards. At first, they just set out to document all the different ways the muscles could move.

45:10

And then they realized just by doing the movements, it actually reversed, engineered and gave them the emotions that it worked both ways.

45:19

Yeah. And I did. But first he had to spend one year in a mirror learning control, the more than 140 facial muscles voluntarily, a subset of which 12 or so usually can't be controlled, but he learned to do it.

45:35

And then he put them together and it's, it's a brilliant system, but it's all the say where you pick up emotion from facial expression to large extent.

45:43

And also from tone of voice from body movements, you do it in dozens of ways.

45:50

And you do it automatically when you're with the person, you don't think about it.

45:55

In fact, if you thought about it, I'd probably get in the way you pick it up unconsciously.

45:59

And you said something, I'm wondering if it's the same thing.

46:01

So I regularly notice anytime I'm eating at a restaurant in a booth with another person, I start me coming aware of the fact that we mirror each other.

46:09

So I put my hand on my Shannon that I noticed they have it, or maybe they did it.

46:12

Now I did it. Or then they lean back and cross it.

46:14

Like you get in this dance of marrying each other and you don't even know you're doing it.

46:18

Is that part of it.

46:19

There are three ingredients to report X w the first is full mutual attention.

46:25

So when you're with that person, you're paying attention to each other.

46:28

The second happens spontaneously.

46:30

It's what you talked about.

46:31

If you made a video of two people that were really supportive, go interacting, and you turned off the sound and just watch their bodies.

46:39

It's like, they're choreographed putting your hand on your chin.

46:44

And then the other person does it. That's just part of the dance.

46:46

And the third thing is, by the way, it feels good.

46:49

And that is a natural by-product of report.

46:52

The interactions you have in a day that make it a good day, or the times you have rapport with people, you have a good interaction.

47:02

And they say to the face-to-face interaction actually gives you the oxytocin as well.

47:07

Right? Like you get something biochemically out of that, that you can't get over text.

47:12

You can't get it from texts. You might get it from zoom.

47:14

If you have a really warm conversation, might get it from a phone call.

47:18

Yeah. You get it from a mutual warmth, essentially.

47:21

Warmheartedness I'm all for warmheartedness.

47:25

I can feel your warm heart, by the way.

47:27

From the second you said, hi, you really you've perfected that.

47:31

It's really funny. You bring up the face thing, because just this morning, my daughter came into my room really early.

47:35

I was up too early. And then, so she got up and then she came in and she's making all these faces.

47:39

And I love when she does that.

47:40

And I'm telling her like, Oh my God, when I was your age is all I did.

47:44

I looked in front of the mirror and made ugly faces, tried to make myself embarrassed.

47:46

I'd laugh. It was this whole thing.

47:48

And she goes, yeah, her face is moving so many ways.

47:51

And I said, yeah, because we didn't always have this great language to communicate.

47:56

So we know how to communicate with just this thing.

48:00

This is how we have communicated.

48:03

Always. When you explain that to her.

48:05

Yeah. That was just this morning. Like literally, I don't know, 10 hours ago.

48:08

And while I was doing it, I was hoping that was correct.

48:11

I don't know if you've ever had this with your kids where it's like, you're explaining something.

48:15

Pretty sure you got it.

48:17

But then there is some part of you is like, I hope I have this one.

48:22

Yeah. You know, the great realization in early adolescence is that your parents weren't always right.

48:28

Well, at least our parents had the luxury of, we couldn't find out on Google.

48:32

You know, it wouldn't take any one of these kids, two seconds to realize we don't truly understand why the sky is blue.

48:39

So right now we're toast.

48:42

We had to transition into another role With

48:44

have to Google first. Yeah.

48:46

I was going to go back to this other thing about how do you know what your emotional intelligence is by asking people?

48:54

I recommend a [email protected].

48:59

Okay. Cause it describes each of the elements of emotional intelligence in detail.

49:03

So you can reflect on it yourself.

49:06

And then you can ask people, how am I at staying positive?

49:10

When things go bad and you can really dig down to each of the aspects.

49:14

If you want to do it, Keystone

49:17

media.com. I'm going to do that because I think I overestimate my emotional intelligence all the time.

49:23

I think I overestimate everything about my intelligence.

49:25

So it'd be, it'd be nice to find out.

49:27

Okay. A couple of things. One is they're called building blocks of emotional intelligence.

49:30

It's a primmer on each of the 12 subsets.

49:32

The other is that remember Dax.

49:36

Everybody has a profile of strengths and limitations.

49:39

In my model, there are 12 parts, but four main ones and then particular abilities within each.

49:45

And you can be really good at say empathy, but not so good at emotional self-control or really good at staying positive or keeping your eye on your goal, but not so good at working out differences, conflict management.

50:02

It depends.

50:02

It's like going to a doctor getting a physical, you know, how are your lipids?

50:06

What's your cholesterol, good cholesterol back on and on and on.

50:10

So look at each part and people who coach this and a lot of coaches do this.

50:15

In fact, the one set of abilities that executives are coached for the most emotional intelligence, because it's key to leadership and coaches will help somebody identify something that they're not good at, but think they could benefit from getting better.

50:29

Then that's a good attitude.

50:31

It's not necessarily your worst thing.

50:33

That may be hard for you to change, but something that could be better and that will help you a lot.

50:38

If you get better, I think for anyone listening, like the notion that it would impact your success professionally, it would impact your success in relationships.

50:48

It will impact your health.

50:50

I can't imagine that that doesn't now encompass.

50:54

Everybody has at least one of those three goals that it would be worth investing in your emotional intelligence.

51:01

You would think so rationally, but think about how many people know what good nutrition is and how popular burgers are.

51:08

Yeah. So, you know, this is interesting.

51:11

When I talk to people about how to improve your emotional intelligence.

51:14

I say, the first thing you need to do is ask yourself this question.

51:18

Do I really care?

51:19

Oh yeah.

51:21

Because if you don't care, forget about it.

51:24

You need to be motivated.

51:27

I couldn't agree more. I'm going to let you in on one more AA thing where there's a point where you've identified your character defects, and then you kind of ask a higher power to help relieve you of these defects of character.

51:37

Right. And throughout the years when I've done that prayer, if I'm being dead honest, I say, you know, I'm not willing.

51:43

They should have all made the good in the bed. I pray that you take away every single defect of character that stands in the way of my usefulness to you and my fellow humans.

51:49

And I go, don't really take Away

51:52

my pervasiveness. I kind of, I want to keep that.

51:55

I'm still getting a lot of joy out of that.

51:57

Like, I'm not fully honest about it's one thing to know my character defects, but there's certain ones I certainly am not ready to have taken away from me.

52:05

Right. Right. If we're more attached to some facilities than others, there's a guy, by the way, a guy named David Smith and pay only a Colorado who has really put together the 12 steps with emotional intelligence plus mindfulness in a good way.

52:20

I recommend his stuff. Although I didn't call it.

52:23

It has. Yeah. I was just talking to him the other day because I feel like emotional intelligence really supports the 12 step approach.

52:30

And I also would say that when you get to a higher power, I really think meditation can help a lot too.

52:39

Yeah. I'm an atheist, Which is a big hurdle with the 12 steps.

52:43

Why is it a hurdle? I haven't found many workarounds, but I'm just saying the 12 steps of AA.

52:47

They say God, more than one. So let's just say that.

52:50

It was very interesting. So there are meditation approaches that don't have anything to do with God.

52:55

Yeah. It's mine training essentially.

52:57

And it also is opening yourself to a larger awareness, which is what you want to do.

53:04

We'd like you to make a case for meditation. So years ago I got trained in TM, my wife and I did it twice a day.

53:10

We've never been happier than we had kids.

53:12

It's all fucked up. We've not meditated in years.

53:15

And I can't wait to the day I go back to it.

53:18

But I do think for a lot of people, the thought of it is intimidating.

53:20

They don't think they could do it.

53:22

And I'd love for you to tell us as someone written an entire book about it, why everyone can do it and how they could maybe start, Anybody

53:28

can do it. So I started with TM also, it's a good starter meditation.

53:33

Then I went on to a what's called insight meditation.

53:37

Like mindfulness is a variety of insight.

53:39

And now I am interested in Tibetan teachers because I was very impressed by their quality of being the ones who are really adept because they were very, you talk about warmheartedness.

53:50

I spent two years living in India and checking out a lot of different things.

53:55

Oh wow. Yeah. And I found that like the Dalai Lama that's who I'd like to be when I grow up because of his personal qualities, the word for Dalai Lama and Tibetans is not Dalai Lama.

54:07

It's Kundun it means presence.

54:09

When you're in his presence, you feel a lot of wonderful things, including you are more loving to other people.

54:18

It's really interesting.

54:20

That's like a contact high.

54:22

The question is, can you cultivate it yourself?

54:24

That's what meditation does.

54:25

So meditation, basically, as I said before, it's just mind training.

54:29

It's like, if you can go to the gym, if you can prioritize physical fitness, you can prioritize mental fitness.

54:37

That's what it is.

54:38

But you have to make time for it.

54:40

And you don't have to believe in a God or a higher power or DOD.

54:44

It's all what you can do for yourself.

54:47

It's internal.

54:48

I think it does open you to a greater, good to a greater awareness, which I think is very can coordinate with what you're saying about that step in a yeah.

54:59

And I know there's a lot of God talk around that, but God is code.

55:02

They say that God's language is silence.

55:05

That's the language of meditation.

55:07

Can you get into a space of deep silence of just being with yourself in a deep way?

55:14

Here's a big one.

55:15

Can you let go of your thoughts?

55:17

A lot of people who start meditation complain that my mind is nuts.

55:21

I never had so many thoughts.

55:24

Actually. That's a good sign, not a bad sign. It means you're actually paying attention to the mind stream, which is light that we just don't notice.

55:32

We get carried by it, but we don't look at it.

55:35

You're so right. It's not that this meditated state has introduced the racket in there.

55:41

It's just, you're paying attention to it for the first time.

55:44

From time, your eyes open up till they close that night.

55:48

Yeah. What gets you out of bed in the morning, some thought or other propels you out of bed, I've got to do this or it's time to get up.

55:55

But the interesting thing about meditation is it changes your relationship to your mind.

56:00

So you can be more like an observer and you can see right here comes that thought here comes to that feeling, that anger or that, you know, I got triggered.

56:09

You can see it more clearly.

56:10

That gives you more internal degrees of freedom.

56:13

You can decide, am I going to go with it?

56:16

Or am I going to let it go?

56:17

Usually we just go with it because we don't see it at a distance.

56:21

We just think, Oh, this is our reality right now.

56:23

And it must Be thought of right now because it's Urgent.

56:28

Exactly. But one of the greatest insights of cognitive therapy is you don't have to believe your thoughts.

56:33

That's major.

56:34

Oh my God.

56:36

Our thoughts of course are great often, but some of them really suck, Oh, those are the ones you don't want to believe.

56:42

Those are the ones that get triggered.

56:45

Like when you get in an argument with your wife and she gets an argument with you, it's because of those thoughts, the ones that you don't really want to believe, but you do believe because you're so convinced because you Hearst that pattern so many times.

57:00

Yeah. It's hard to differentiate. Which ones are worth keeping and which ones aren't.

57:06

Yeah. Sometimes it helps to work with it. So my wife integrated mindfulness with cognitive therapy.

57:10

Mindfulness is this method of changing your relationship to your thoughts and your feelings.

57:15

So you have an internal degree of freedom.

57:18

You can have a choice point you didn't have before.

57:20

Then you can look at the thoughts.

57:22

Some thoughts are perfectly fine.

57:24

Most thoughts are probably perfectly fine.

57:26

Some thoughts always get you in trouble.

57:28

And they're very powerful thoughts, very powerful Going

57:32

way back to social, emotional learning.

57:34

Cause I know a lot of our listeners have kids.

57:37

And I wonder if you have like one example besides the belly buddies, which I love for kids to like practice like a tool that kids can use.

57:47

No, I've, I've observed some of these classes. One of the things I liked, I think second graders or first graders, they come into classroom and they say how they feel and why they feel it.

57:58

They, you don't have to, if you don't want to share that, you can keep it yourself.

58:02

But that helps develop self-awareness or here's one I like for the second grader, let's imagine that someone stole your pencil or had your pencil.

58:13

How could you get your pencil back?

58:15

What would make it better? What would make it worse?

58:18

And the kids brainstorm with the teacher.

58:20

So what they're doing is learning conflict management or fourth grade, fifth grade, I have a part in a play and I'm too shy of stage fright.

58:28

What can you do to manage that?

58:31

What would make it better? What would make it worse?

58:33

Or twelve-year-olds my friends want me to try drugs and I don't want it, but I want to keep my friends, how can I do it?

58:40

And they work with that and you can see why kids love this because it helps them with the melodramas of their lives.

58:48

Kids at a certain age care less about their family than they do about their friends by the end of elementary school, basically.

58:55

And that means that anything that helps them get along better with their friends.

59:00

And that's what SEL does is going to be something laid love.

59:04

There's one. I like it's the stoplight.

59:05

Remember I mentioned cognitive control.

59:07

Being able to manage your impulses.

59:09

The stoplight is a poster in every classroom and it's a bread light.

59:14

When you feel you're upset, stop, calm down and think before you act as the red light, yellow light, think of a range of ways you could respond and what the outcome would be.

59:27

Greenlight pick the best one and try it out.

59:30

And I visited these schools, inner city in new Haven where they were doing this, the stoplight, they do it on a lot of SEL programs.

59:38

And I asked kids around 11 and 12.

59:40

I took them one by one.

59:42

Does this program make any difference in your lives?

59:46

And they all had stories.

59:47

One kid says, yeah, I was in a store.

59:50

My friend was stealing stuff and wanted me to steal stuff.

59:53

And then I thought about the stoplight and I walked out of the store.

59:57

Wow. So it really helps kids with the challenges and dilemmas and predicaments of their lives.

1:00:04

And it gives them skills that will last forever.

1:00:07

And I feel like my generation, we didn't have it didn't exist.

1:00:10

I wish we had.

1:00:13

Yeah. Yeah. You have to do remedial work if you're older.

1:00:17

Yeah. Yeah. I also think there's so many layers too, with conventional gender roles and what males were allowed to feel and what women were expected to feel like.

1:00:27

I look forward to the day that all unravels as someone who has felt imprisoned by those expectations at times.

1:00:35

But you know, parents because of the culture, I think have a big role in that, in that parents tend to talk to girls about feelings and relationships and to boys about things, erector sets, whatever.

1:00:50

And so it starts there and it's a very deep cultural pattern, at least in our culture.

1:00:57

So it's going to take a lot of undoing to Josh.

1:01:01

We were both playing with our beer just now.

1:01:03

That's right.

1:01:04

Because of rapport.

1:01:07

Yeah.

1:01:07

Is

1:01:07

there

1:01:07

anything

1:01:07

in

1:01:07

25

1:01:07

years

1:01:07

that

1:01:07

didn't

1:01:11

age? Well, is there any part that you're like, Oh, new science came out or that I didn't have that right.

1:01:18

Luckily nothing I know about that's impressive.

1:01:21

And

1:01:21

I

1:01:21

do

1:01:21

make

1:01:21

it,

1:01:21

my

1:01:21

job

1:01:21

to

1:01:21

know

1:01:21

about

1:01:25

it. I'm just doing an article for the Harvard business review, for example, on making the case that emotional intelligence makes good leaders, but it also makes very effective organizations.

1:01:35

This is kind of a new frontier.

1:01:38

There's a lot of data for that.

1:01:40

So, so far the model holds up.

1:01:44

That's impressive. I graduated college in 2000 and I'm regularly spouting off stuff I learned in anthropology that has sends either one 80 or that's not how they first came to America.

1:01:57

I mean, it's crazy. How much is unraveled in 21 years?

1:02:01

Actually an anthropology. It's true.

1:02:04

Yeah. So I applaud any book that's still relevant 25 years later.

1:02:09

Thanks. Thanks. Yeah. Well, I think we all owe you whether or not you invented that phrase, you certainly popularize it.

1:02:15

And it became something that people could express that the value and that it's something that it should be explored and promoted.

1:02:22

And I think that's so wonderful.

1:02:24

So I'm very grateful for your time.

1:02:27

Thanks. It's very kind of you and thank you for giving it a podium here on the podcast.

1:02:32

Absolutely. I want to repeat one more time on the website.

1:02:36

Oh yeah. One other thing I just remembered.

1:02:38

I'm starting my own podcast.

1:02:40

Get the fuck out of here.

1:02:42

Yeah, really. It's called first person plural and it's emotional intelligence and beyond, and it's just starting.

1:02:50

It's just launched like this week.

1:02:51

Oh, you're kidding. First person.

1:02:54

Plural. I love that first person plural Because

1:02:58

he that's the kind of title I would have come up with and Monica would have shot.

1:03:01

No, I just said, I love them.

1:03:04

Maybe like this title. We have a parenting show from Dr.

1:03:06

Wendy mogul. She's amazing.

1:03:08

I assume you probably are aware of her.

1:03:10

And I wanted to call the show.

1:03:12

Air Heir

1:03:14

apparent error period or error apparent error at the play on air.

1:03:25

Half the people don't even know what era parents is.

1:03:27

And then even if you do know what era parent is errors, it just, it wasn't going to work out.

1:03:32

Everyone knows About first person, plural, First

1:03:35

person, plural. Is we us?

1:03:38

Yeah,

1:03:38

I

1:03:38

like

1:03:40

that.

1:03:44

Arab Baron. So good. So Glover, What

1:03:47

I realized is I have a lot of things I want to say.

1:03:51

And if I write a book, it takes two or three years.

1:03:53

If I do a podcast, it's like almost instant gratification.

1:03:56

Oh, I couldn't agree with you more.

1:03:58

I had prior to this been directing movies, it takes two years and then it comes out on a Friday and you're like, I hope everyone sees it.

1:04:05

That was two years of my life. Exactly.

1:04:07

Oh no, they did it now.

1:04:10

Yeah. So I kind of really like in the form, I'm pretty in love with it actually.

1:04:14

I'm doing with my son too, which is fun.

1:04:16

Oh fun. Is he in the same line of work?

1:04:19

As you know, he's more a media guy.

1:04:23

Okay. You know, he has a degree in audio engineering, but he did publishing for awhile and a key step media is his company.

1:04:29

Oh great.

1:04:31

Yeah. Great key step media.com.

1:04:34

Such a great experience, getting to know you and to talk to you.

1:04:37

And I really hope we get to do it again. I want everyone to go out and celebrate.

1:04:40

If they've not already read it and get emotional intelligence, it started this whole conversation, which is so helpful to all of us, Dr.

1:04:47

Daniel, Goldman. I appreciate your time so much.

1:04:50

So you know, that guy coined the term, but it's ubiquitous.

1:04:55

Everyone knows emotional intelligence and that's because of you.

1:04:59

That must feel great.

1:05:01

In fact, so Peter, who I mentioned is now the president of Yale has acknowledged that he came up with the term, but I made it famous.

1:05:08

You're

1:05:08

Ray

1:05:11

crock. Oh, that's interesting.

1:05:13

Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah, I totally get it.

1:05:16

Yeah. Right. Right. So Ray Kroc McDonald's Was

1:05:18

McDonald's Ray Kroc came into the scene and he made him McDonald's.

1:05:21

Yeah. It was like one little drive in somewhere or there Santa Barbara.

1:05:25

I don't know where he is now a word in languages around the world.

1:05:30

It's like a global phenomenon that never would have had Peter knows.

1:05:34

And his coauthor, a Jack May or they know they've written that nobody would have known about it if it hadn't been for me.

1:05:42

Yeah. Yeah. That's powerful.

1:05:43

It's so wonderful.

1:05:46

I hope you're proud of it. Yeah. You feel good about it?

1:05:49

Definitely. Now go meditate to make sure your ego does it.

1:05:53

I want to thank you both.

1:05:54

This has been a real pleasure time, which is like that.

1:05:57

It's amazing when you're having a good time.

1:06:00

The flow state, it always feels.

1:06:04

Yeah. All right. Well, Hey

1:06:06

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1:08:48

And now my favorite part of the show, the fact check with my soulmate, Monica, Batman.

1:08:58

Hello. Hi. We're not back from Hawaii yet, but we are, but we are.

1:09:04

This is Thursday. No, I mean, We are back, but me and you in real life are not back.

1:09:09

We still have. I think you needed a big, big dose of vitamin D from the sun.

1:09:14

I've been thinking that I'm just sad in this apartment.

1:09:17

I mean, I'm not, it's a beautiful apartment, but when I'm looking at my house, I just keep thinking about spending the whole day outside.

1:09:26

I can't wait.

1:09:29

Yeah. Oh my God. I can't wait.

1:09:34

Okay. So this is a fun episode cause it's on emotional intelligence Really

1:09:39

quick though. I want to know the answer to this.

1:09:42

I don't, but you know, white people became white because they moved from Africa to Northern climates with way less sunshine.

1:09:52

They still needed vitamin D. So their skin got wider so that they could absorb more of the limited sun.

1:10:00

You're designed to have 12 hours of sunlight every single day it's you're on the equator.

1:10:06

And so Probably

1:10:09

why I feel so deprived when I don't The

1:10:11

reason that you can't absorb nearly as much as I can in this Northern climate.

1:10:16

And that you may be, would be predisposed to not get enough vitamin D.

1:10:21

Cause what happens is people who look like you, who went North, they turned out looking like me, but you're here because of airplanes not walking in a world.

1:10:31

What? I'm sorry, say it one more time. Everyone started out Brown in Africa And

1:10:36

then people move North. And the people that moved North that had really dark skin didn't absorb enough vitamin D from the sun and they died.

1:10:45

And the people that were abnormally light that were leftover reproduced and of those, the lightest people thrive because they were absorbing more vitamin D from the sun and not getting sick.

1:10:55

Why are they able to absorb more? Just because they're white.

1:10:58

Oh, because of the light, like, Yeah, let's do more of it.

1:11:01

That's why we burn.

1:11:03

You guys don't burn as much.

1:11:04

So that was a process that took thousands of years.

1:11:09

But then your dad took an airplane here.

1:11:12

So he's to live in a climate that has massive amounts of sun 12 hours a day.

1:11:19

But he finds himself in the winter months in the Northern hemisphere.

1:11:25

Yeah. Not getting enough sun. I have to imagine you, you guys must run low on vitamin D Maybe,

1:11:31

maybe that's why I have sad truly.

1:11:34

Oh my God. Do you think, does it rain a lot in India?

1:11:39

Oh Baby. The monsoons There.

1:11:42

Then that's not in line with my sad.

1:11:44

No, but okay.

1:11:47

In general there's no month in India or the sun's only out eight hours a day.

1:11:53

This is a side note. Do you know Acacia trees?

1:11:56

They're the ones that you see in Africa that looked like umbrellas.

1:12:01

They don't have any side foliage.

1:12:04

Right. And they don't have it because the sun never is going sideways across the horizon.

1:12:10

Unlike those in the Northern climates or the Southern climates, because it's the equator it's always going directly overhead.

1:12:17

So it would be useless to have them on the sides.

1:12:20

What percentage of the audience, if you had to guess likes these fun facts, This is like meantime.

1:12:28

What was like when I fart and I don't know how it's reading, if I'm pulling it off, I just don't know.

1:12:34

Like, that's the kind of fact I'd love to pick up, but I don't know, Fact

1:12:40

check. You might as well have some facts in there.

1:12:42

You know, we're all about learning. Yeah.

1:12:44

That's incredible. Incredibly proprietary to the Acacia.

1:12:47

It is. I like that. I like that story.

1:12:50

I wonder if you planted acacias up here a if they would even live, but if in fact they did live, if they would somehow involve side foliage, There

1:12:59

probably is some cousin to that tree that is here.

1:13:02

That is just a normal tree. That what we call it.

1:13:04

Normal tree, big bulbous.

1:13:07

Have you ever heard of normal trees?

1:13:09

Yeah.

1:13:12

Okay. Well, I hope that explains my sad because I know people dismiss it and people meaning you dismiss it as nothing.

1:13:19

I think I'm very indulgent of your sad. In fact, just yesterday, I asked you how your sad was doing because it was cloudy yesterday.

1:13:25

Do you not? Do I need to read the text? I

1:13:27

think it's because you felt that I was in a mood or something.

1:13:33

I think you felt a mood change for me and then realized I

1:13:38

was walking somewhere yesterday and I was loving walking in that gloomy weather because I'm from Michigan.

1:13:44

I don't know something nostalgic about it.

1:13:46

And I was really like getting off on it.

1:13:48

And then I thought, Oh, Monica hates this.

1:13:51

And then I text you. How's your sad doing today?

1:13:53

But it, it auto corrected to how's your dad doing Today?

1:13:57

I was like, he's fine. I think, Yeah,

1:13:59

just a weird question. You were like, placated me, like, Oh, I haven't talked to him, but it kind of made sense.

1:14:04

Cause his interview had come out that Exactly

1:14:07

his little portion on the fact check had come out. So I thought you were asking like, how's he doing Where

1:14:12

people mean to him?

1:14:14

Right. And then I was upset because you know, I was acknowledging you're sad and inquiring about it all to be misunderstood.

1:14:25

Like an episode of three's company, big misunderstanding.

1:14:29

I looked up how to fix it.

1:14:34

There's There's light therapy. Yeah. But I, I have a little light source in my room, but yeah, it's supposed to help, but it doesn't No,

1:14:43

you need the, like the big UV Baker overhead, like in Alaska, they have to give the children that light.

1:14:52

I know, but it's like, it's this big I bought one, not so I have a night light.

1:14:57

No, it's not a night light. It turns on a half hour before you wake up and it tries to mimic a sunrise.

1:15:05

So it starts out red and then slowly gets to light it's by hatch.

1:15:12

It's very cool to see it.

1:15:14

It's a clock too, which I like, because I don't want to check my phone and you can do meditation.

1:15:21

They are not sponsored, but they should be, you do a little like half hour meditation before bed.

1:15:27

The lights dim for like 20 minutes.

1:15:30

So you can read like in a windup, it's a whole process so that you get the best sleep.

1:15:35

Yes. It's a whole program so that you can sleep the best.

1:15:37

And you know, I've been on a journey with sleep am.

1:15:41

The wake up is to mimic sunrise.

1:15:43

So you get that circadian rhythm that gets put into gear, but it hasn't been working for me.

1:15:49

And then I bought one of those sad lamps.

1:15:51

So it was really excited about that.

1:15:54

And it's like half the size of this laptop.

1:15:57

I don't trust it. You need a big, big light source in general.

1:16:02

If you had to give a rating, your sleep before you quit drinking out of 10 and then overall after quitting drinking.

1:16:14

That's a good question.

1:16:16

We, we can't say quick cause you've drank by now.

1:16:18

Cause we've already been to Hawaii, but at any rate, go ahead.

1:16:21

Pretend, pretend it's today.

1:16:24

So I haven't quit for good. I just haven't drank in a couple months.

1:16:28

Yeah. Before I took my hiatus, my sleep was probably three K and I bet now it's six or seven.

1:16:38

It is significant Because

1:16:40

you were discouraged the first couple of weeks.

1:16:42

You're like, Oh, it's not really helping my sleep.

1:16:45

I was, I wonder if one of the reasons among many is simply your schedule's probably way more predictable.

1:16:54

Like you leave hangs earlier than you used to.

1:16:59

Like, it might just be that you're much more on a schedule because you're not like having fun and staying up till two at the Hanson's on one once a month.

1:17:11

You'd end up being at the Hanson's to like one or two.

1:17:15

Yeah. I am having a hard time though, because recently I just feel so low energy and I don't understand why, because I'm not drinking.

1:17:25

I'm sleeping seemingly better at the very least I'm eating.

1:17:30

Well, I feel like I should feel so full of energy.

1:17:35

I don't know why it's another grievance.

1:17:39

Okay. We got to do something important. Yeah.

1:17:41

So Daniel, he has a test emotional intelligence test.

1:17:45

We haven't done a test in so long problem is she gave me the website, but I can't find the test on it.

1:17:59

I'm almost afraid to take this because I think I have really high emotional intelligence.

1:18:03

And what if I don't, I guess similar anxiety about taking an IQ test in general.

1:18:08

I think you're smart, but then you're going to find out your average Smart.

1:18:13

Oh, what a fun noise. Your computers mate.

1:18:17

Oh, I love that noise.

1:18:19

If this noise agitated, you, you have a motion.

1:18:28

Alrighty. Well, it's been a long time since Riley.

1:18:35

I'm sorry. We're going to have to do a test. That's not Daniels.

1:18:39

Okay. So we wanted to do Daniels and we simply couldn't find it.

1:18:44

Okay. Ready? Set.

1:18:46

Go. My emotions generally have either a strong impact on the way I behave little or no impact on the way I behave very strong.

1:18:55

I am generally guided by my goals and values others goals and values my goals and values.

1:19:04

When I'm under pressure, I generally have changed behaviors from normal behaviors that remain unchanged.

1:19:11

These are abstract questions.

1:19:16

Okay. I generally learn most by actively doing activities from reflecting on past experiences.

1:19:24

I'd say reflecting, I guess I

1:19:26

generally have a good sense of humor about myself or take myself seriously.

1:19:33

I present myself with self-assurance and having presence or with some confidence and cautiousness, The

1:19:41

first arrogance cockiness, Where

1:19:45

there are uncertainties and pressures.

1:19:47

I am always a decisive and make sound decisions, be cautious about making the right decision.

1:19:54

Well, we know I'm not cautious about decisions at all.

1:19:58

I always voice views that are unpopular and go out on a limb for what is right or most others agree with and support Those.

1:20:06

See those that's labeled diametrically opposed, but it's not.

1:20:10

I would say I do both though. Well, I'd say I do a provocative argument and I think sometimes I convince people or they see the merit in it, but I'll just stick with the first one.

1:20:23

Right? I think so. I always like to take on new challenges, maintain the status quo new challenges.

1:20:30

I generally inspire confidence in others.

1:20:32

Rely on other's confidence, inspire competence.

1:20:36

I generally allow my emotions and moods to impact on my behaviors or I generally keep my disruptive emotions and impulses under control.

1:20:45

What do you think? I want you to answer that for me.

1:20:48

I think you let them impact your behavior when I'm under pressure, I get easily distracted in other things, or I think clearly and stay focused.

1:20:57

Oh, ladder. I always do.

1:21:00

As I say, I will do do only what I have to do.

1:21:04

Do what I say I'll do trust by others is automatically given to me is built through reliability and authenticity.

1:21:11

The ladder. I am always flexible in how I see events.

1:21:15

I am always able to see events for what they are a ladder during changing situations.

1:21:21

I always work hard to try and keep up with the demands smoothly, handle multiple demands and shifting priority The

1:21:30

ladder.

1:21:30

No

1:21:30

I

1:21:30

know,

1:21:30

but

1:21:30

I

1:21:30

want

1:21:30

you

1:21:30

to

1:21:30

call

1:21:30

me

1:21:30

on,

1:21:30

I

1:21:30

might

1:21:30

not

1:21:30

be

1:21:30

objective

1:21:30

about

1:21:30

many

1:21:30

of

1:21:30

these

1:21:30

during

1:21:30

changing

1:21:40

situation. Like here's what I'm interpreting that as. Like I'm really flexible.

1:21:43

I think what makes me director is when I get there and shit, isn't the way it's supposed to be.

1:21:47

I just immediately start figuring out how to make it work.

1:21:50

I don't get like bogged down and why that was supposed to be here and blah, blah, blah.

1:21:54

I just go like, okay, I can make it work if we do X, Y, and Z.

1:21:59

Right? I'm very flexible in that way.

1:22:02

Sometimes though. Cause like if like it's top gear, then it's not, you're not as flexible if you're the woman.

1:22:08

No, I think that show, I was immediately thinking of that show, but it would be way too hard to articulate, but we'd have no plan.

1:22:15

Like we show up there and we have cars and a premise and I'm so comfortable knowing things will happen.

1:22:20

And we'll like pivot the story and find something great.

1:22:26

I always set myself challenging goals.

1:22:28

I always complete the goals that are set for me.

1:22:32

See, those are different.

1:22:33

Like you can set challenging goals and then complete them.

1:22:37

I know that you have to pick. They don't like, Well,

1:22:40

this isn't Daniel's thing.

1:22:42

I just can't pick. I can't find it Right.

1:22:44

But both.

1:22:48

Okay. You're okay. I don't think you're actually flexible to changing situations.

1:22:54

Listen to you.

1:22:57

Maybe this question is you're supposed to Force

1:23:00

you to figure out the previous question.

1:23:03

I set goals for myself and I accomplish goals.

1:23:06

Which one should I pick? I think you set challenging goals for yourself.

1:23:10

Okay. Obstacles and setbacks occur in pursuing my goals.

1:23:13

I always readjust the goals and or expectations, persistence seeking the goals.

1:23:18

Despite what has happened.

1:23:21

I do both, you know?

1:23:25

Right. You can't do everything. I think it's saying like, Well,

1:23:28

like here's what I'm saying. I pursued directing and writing movies for a very long time.

1:23:32

I really stick with it 10 years.

1:23:35

And then when that's not going to work, I pick a new goal and I, and then I decided to do other things to maybe readjust.

1:23:43

Okay. I'll readjust.

1:23:45

Generally I pursue goals beyond what is required or expected of me or I pursue, I guess I have a thought, what if this is the wrong test?

1:23:55

Because I'm like, I'm not understanding How this is relating to emotional intelligence.

1:23:59

Me either. Yeah. This is great. What if it tells you afterwards?

1:24:02

You're Italian. You're Italian.

1:24:11

Oh my God. Okay.

1:24:12

Generally I pursue goals beyond what is required or expected of me pursue goals only as far as is required of me.

1:24:21

When I identify opportunities, I am always uncertain about whether to pursue the opportunity proactive in pursuing the opportunity.

1:24:30

Group differences are always causing difficulties in unrest, understood and valued.

1:24:37

The first one, When I see bias and intolerance, I always challenge the initiating people, turn a blind eye and ignore it.

1:24:46

Yes. The former, I always help out based on the tasks.

1:24:50

Others need help with understanding other's needs and feelings.

1:24:55

The latter. I hate helping people with their tasks.

1:24:59

That's true. But you do like, like helping people with cars, right?

1:25:02

I would love like if you have a problem, I law immediately.

1:25:04

I want to just like talk about it and figure out what's going on emotionally.

1:25:09

But if you're like, I need to my shower head.

1:25:14

Yeah. But I didn't fix your Sonos. And I had a real whirlwind day.

1:25:18

Last time we recorded here, I fix your treadmill.

1:25:23

Fixing my treadmill was putting The

1:25:26

safety key back on the magnet.

1:25:29

Literally putting a magnet on a magnet That

1:25:32

fell off and then getting your SANOS all working and then hooking up your humidifier.

1:25:38

It was pretty good. I'm trying to make up for not having done your shower head who'd you end up having competing with Laura's

1:25:48

boyfriend. Oh, I always listened to the important words being said, listen.

1:25:53

Well, and I'm attentive to emotional cues.

1:25:57

I'd say emotional cues. I don't really believe anyone knows what they're saying.

1:26:01

Like I'm looking for the emotion that's happening.

1:26:03

Not the facts of what they're saying.

1:26:05

Like I'm so mad at so-and-so he tried and I'm like, Hmm.

1:26:09

You know what? Something else is going on this.

1:26:12

Okay. Okay. Others perspectives are always understood and sensitivity shown, clouding the issues and getting us off track.

1:26:24

Probably the ladder. I always find social networks in the organization.

1:26:28

Get in the way of delivering performance, help create better decision networks.

1:26:34

I, I don't, I've never worked in that kind of environment, but I think I wouldn't like social networking get in the way.

1:26:40

Yeah. I always use informal key power relationships to get what I need.

1:26:45

Formal decision networks to get what I need.

1:26:49

I don't know what either of those maybe Like,

1:26:50

do you use like friendly relationships you have to, I think you do that.

1:26:57

Like you're more likely to work on a project of someone, you know?

1:27:02

And like then like through an studio head or something.

1:27:07

Yeah. Okay. I always give customers what they ask for.

1:27:10

I always understand customers needs and match products services.

1:27:15

I'm not in this situation.

1:27:17

This is also talking about work.

1:27:20

Yeah. You do have customers. Yeah. But we're not getting much feedback.

1:27:23

Well that Sentry we hear from armchairs on Instagram, I'm trying to give them emotionally what they need.

1:27:31

I'm not telling them Wait,

1:27:34

but then you understand customers needs and match products, services, not you give customers what they ask for.

1:27:40

No, I don't probably don't give anyone what they ask for.

1:27:44

I always act as a trusted advisor to the customer.

1:27:48

Tell the customer what they want to hear Advisor.

1:27:52

Yeah. It's just weird customers. A weird, This

1:27:54

is an English one. So maybe customer means something else in Britain.

1:28:00

Yeah. Increasing customer satisfaction and loyalty is always part of the way I work is not important in achieving the sale of the ladder.

1:28:08

The vision and mission are always given to staff.

1:28:11

So they know where we are going use to inspire groups and individuals know where they're going.

1:28:18

I always let people know of the behaviors expected.

1:28:21

I always modeled the behaviors expected of others.

1:28:25

I always give assignments to people who can get the job done and do it well, will grow and develop as a result of the challenge.

1:28:32

The first interesting one, winning people over is something that I find difficult to do.

1:28:36

I am very good at. I

1:28:38

enjoy. That's not an option. I don't want to say I'm very good at it.

1:28:43

I always communicate in a way that everyone understands what I'm saying.

1:28:47

That seeks mutual understanding and full information sharing.

1:28:51

I don't know. What do you think that everyone understands what I'm saying?

1:28:55

I always go along with the changes being driven by others, or I always recognize the need for changes and remove barriers.

1:29:02

We certainly don't go along with decisions by others.

1:29:05

So maybe through the null hypothesis, I have to pick the other one.

1:29:10

This is why I'm the worst employee.

1:29:12

I don't think you are.

1:29:15

I'm a very bad employee. Unless you want to hire someone.

1:29:18

Who's going to give you their opinion all the time.

1:29:21

But this is, let's say it's boss.

1:29:23

Think of it as a boss. Do you wait for the employees to tell you something needs to change?

1:29:30

And then you do that or do you look around yourself and say, Oh, that needs a change.

1:29:37

Okay. Like whether you're editing, you didn't come to me and say, I can't, I'm overwhelmed editing, but I'm like, this is killing you.

1:29:43

The version of the editing you're doing is killing.

1:29:45

You. Let's figure out how to Right.

1:29:47

I always handle difficult people in a straightforward and direct manner with diplomacy and tact Direct

1:29:54

and straight forward and aggressive and confrontational.

1:29:57

We seek out relationships that are mutually beneficial.

1:30:00

That will help me achieve my end goal.

1:30:03

I mean you surely benefit.

1:30:06

I don't know.

1:30:08

Yeah, I think so too. I think so.

1:30:10

I generally have a stronger focus on tasks rather than relationships balanced, focus on tasks and relationships, relationships.

1:30:19

When I work with teams, I always make it clear what I expect members to do.

1:30:23

Draw all members into enthusiastic participation, make it clear.

1:30:29

All right, score test.

1:30:32

The following numerical scores are calculated from your answers to the EDI test.

1:30:37

If you answered honestly and accurately, your scores out of 10 for each quadrant will reflect your capability level within each of the EEI quadrants.

1:30:45

Self-awareness nine out of 10.

1:30:48

You weren't listening.

1:30:50

Okay. Listening to this kidding.

1:30:55

So self-awareness was a nine out of 10.

1:30:58

Okay. Self-management seven social awareness, six relationship management five.

1:31:07

Oh,

1:31:07

but

1:31:07

do

1:31:07

you

1:31:07

want

1:31:07

me

1:31:07

to

1:31:07

read

1:31:07

a

1:31:07

little

1:31:07

bit

1:31:07

about

1:31:14

it? Yeah. I gotta be flexible. Be flexible.

1:31:16

So here we go. Social

1:31:17

awareness description, social awareness is comprised of three competencies, empathy, which is understanding others and taking an active interest in their concerns, organizational awareness, which is the ability to read the currents of organizational life, build decision networks and navigate politics and service orientation, which is recognizing and meeting customer's needs the adaptable success oriented type.

1:31:42

Interesting, okay. Relationship management description, the social cluster of relationship management is comprised of seven competencies, visionary leadership, which is inspiring and guiding groups and individuals developing others, which is a propensity to strengthen and support the abilities of others through feedback and guidance influence, which has the ability to exercise wide range of persuasive strategies with integrity, and also includes listening and sending clear and sending clear convincing and well-tuned messages, change catalyst, which is the proficiency in initiating new ideas and leading people in a new direction.

1:32:17

I think you have a lot of that conflict management, which is resolving disagreements and collaboratively developing resolutions is probably where a guy building bonds, which is building and maintaining relationships with others and teamwork and collaboration, which is a promotion of cooperation and building of teams.

1:32:38

But let me talk about your upper self-awareness nine big one.

1:32:43

The core of emotional intelligence is self-awareness self-awareness is comprised of three competencies, emotional self-awareness where you are able to read and understand your emotions as well as recognize our impact on work performance and relationships accurate.

1:32:58

Self-assessment where you are able to give a realistic evaluation of your strengths and limitations.

1:33:04

And self-confidence where you have a positive and strong sense of one.

1:33:07

Self-worth the starting point and key in these areas is the ability to be critically self-reflect.

1:33:13

That's great. That's true.

1:33:16

Hmm. Management, last ones you had a seven on self-management is comprised of five competencies self-control which is keeping disruptive emotions and impulses under control transparency, which is maintaining standards of honesty and integrity.

1:33:30

Okay. So first one I'd say I was bad at second one, I'd say I'm good at, yeah.

1:33:34

Stay in integrity, managing yourself and responsibilities.

1:33:38

That's all part of transparency, Stability,

1:33:42

which is the flexibility and adapting to changing situations and overcoming obstacles, achievement orientation, which is the guiding drive to meet an internal standard of excellence and initiative, which is the readiness to seize opportunities And

1:33:56

act. Hmm.

1:33:58

Interesting. We love quizzes.

1:34:00

We're going to find the real one from Daniel and I'll give you that one.

1:34:04

Yeah. Great. All right. All right.

1:34:07

Well we're back from Hawaii. It was fun.

1:34:09

You're healthier.

1:34:12

Never. My sad has gone for six days.

1:34:14

You're so scared of me drinking.

1:34:17

No, no, I feel it keeps coming up.

1:34:19

What's the big change you haven't drank for two months.

1:34:23

I can't because I'm not supposed to go from non to.

1:34:28

Okay. Well, however you do, it'll be great for real.

1:34:34

I never had a problem with you drinking ever, But

1:34:37

it seems like in my, in my sobriety Or

1:34:41

interested in it. Yeah, I know You're

1:34:42

interested, but I, I feel that it's something more, I feel that You

1:34:48

are. I can tell you what it is. I don't have 1% fear.

1:34:50

You have a drinking problem.

1:34:52

Not 1.5.

1:34:54

No, none. I don't have that at all.

1:34:59

I do have the thought, is it additive or deduct it for you?

1:35:04

And I'm only wanting you to honestly assess that.

1:35:09

If I saw that you drive so much joy from it, then to me, it would be like, yeah.

1:35:15

And then if you didn't drive any downside from it, I mean like, yeah, but I, I see you drink in my opinion, more habitually than it is that it is.

1:35:28

That's why I wanted to take a break.

1:35:31

So I'm not affected one way or another.

1:35:33

Like, you're not annoying when you drink it doesn't bother me.

1:35:36

When you, like, for me, there's no impact on you drinking.

1:35:40

But as someone who loves you and wants you to like sleep well, if that's something you like and it's gotten better and you have such a rock and personality sober, I guess that's the other thing, like I know people that are they're in a, such a shell without alcohol, that it is really a lubricant.

1:35:58

They kind of need. And then socially it's, it is infinitely better for them.

1:36:03

And it's obvious, but you don't really have that.

1:36:05

You don't have problem engaging without that.

1:36:08

That's true. You don't, you're not like really inhibited or anything.

1:36:12

No, I'm not.

1:36:15

Yeah. You got to, you get a one 60 on your emotional IQ score.

1:36:18

Just let you know. That's out of one 6,200.

1:36:23

Well, I could do better things out of 200.

1:36:26

What'd I say he had one 60.

1:36:29

Yeah. That's above genius. Genius is above one 40.

1:36:32

Great. You're great. You're emotionally a genius.

1:36:34

I love you. Welcome. Welcome. Welcome to Arm to your expert experts on expert. I'm Dan Shepherd. I'm joined by Monica Monsoon. And That's What were you guys saying? Well, there's just we're interviewing a Dan, another Dan. Daniel Goldman. Daniel Goleman. Yes. Not unlike Daniel Shepherd. That's right. Now Daniel Goleman is a PhD in an author and science journalist that wrote for The New York Times reporting on the brain and behavioral sciences. Where he was twice nominated for a Pulitzer prize. He also went on. So esteemed, oh, my unifile. Now, of course, everyone has heard the term emotional intelligence. And Daniel is largely responsible for making that a popular word in the zeichgeist. Because he wrote the book, emotional intelligence. Drawing on groundbreaking brain and behavioral research, Goldman shows the factors at work when people of high Q flounder and those of modest IQ do surprisingly well. These factors which include self awareness, self management, and empathy add up to a different way of being smart and they aren't fixed at birth. This was so fun to talk about because It's so fun. I'm really glad that EQ is being finally, like, recognize as important. Yes. Valued. Yeah. You have a high EQ. What? Thank you. I mean You guess. Yeah. That's my guess. So please enjoy Daniel Goleman. He's an object. Hello, doctor Goleman? Well, hello there. Hi, Dash. Hi, Monica. Sorry for our tardiness. I'm gonna blame my children. They're zooming from home and they just crashed our space, and it took me a minute to get rid of them. Do you have children? I have grandchildren. You know? Oh my goodness. They go from in ages from three to about twenty one. Wow. Wow. There's six of them, which is nice, but they're not here. Okay. So we could speak the same language about the emotional wave of having children, which is been the most profound experience of my life. What is the experience of grandchildren? Well, it turns out there's a latent grandparent gene. That activates when you first told your first grandchild, and it just floods you with oxytocin. Monica, do you have kids? I don't. This makes you wanna give my parents grandkids so bad. Yeah. Well, that's the nice thing of being a grandparent. So This gene just floods you with feel good hormones, and so you just love your kids. Yeah. It helps a lot. Well, I used to say to my wife, when the kids were screaming and crying, you know, where they were babies and mom gets oxytocin a lot longer than I used to say to my wife when the kids were screaming and crying, you know, were their babies. Yeah. And mom gets oxytocin a lot longer than bad. And I said, you know, this does sound differently to me because I don't have as much oxytocin as you. Oxytocin helps a lot. It does. I'm surprised they haven't figured out how to synthesize it and use it as a drug. It's coming. I'm sure. Yeah. I'm sure. But when you have the grandkids, I have a fantasy that goes like this. Oh my gosh. I'll hold them. And I'll just be able to have all the love without the panic that I have to do this right because it's not my job. Well, no. The great advantage of grandchildren is that when you hold them and love them, you feel really great and they do. And then when they start doing something that's a problem, you hand them back. Yeah. Not your responsibility. That sounds nice. No. That's a perfect arrangement. Yeah. I heard an interesting debate once between do you know who Sam Harris is? I've known Sam for years. I know him well. He was debating I wanted to say it was Paul Blum. That makes the most sense to me, but maybe it wasn't Paul. But they were talking about empathy and they were talking about this biological predisposition to care most about your immediate family and It was Paul. Right? Someone was making the argument, what if you could extend that out to everybody? And the other person was saying, well, no. You have to prioritize who needs your time and attention and your investment. Or the whole thing would collapse. Yeah. And I found that kind of a compelling argument. Well, Sam and I actually met in a meditation context Oh, that makes sense. Yeah. And he's talking about lovingkindness meditation where you teach your brain to extend the love you feel naturally for people close to you beyond that circle to people who are just friends or strangers or people you bump into or everybody everywhere. And the Dollarama, who who I've also known for a long time, says, you know, the hardest part is that jump from people you love naturally to people that you just know. That's the big challenge. Yeah. Now, can I just tell you anecdotally an experience that we've had and it's something we do? It's not that meditation, but I was acting like a really deplorable jerk one day at work -- Mhmm. -- to some people. And Monica said later, what if those people were Armchair? Meaning people that listen to this show who I value so greatly. It's insane. And I was mortified to think that I would have been treating some Armchair that way. And that's so weird. Cause that's just some mental that's it's some mental construct I've Oh, that's really interesting. So there you have some mental line. People who are okay to treat as a jerk versus people who it's not okay to treat as better. I think we all have that line. Yeah. I think intellectually, I know no one should be treated like jerk. And then quite often, emotionally, I am unable to get out of reptilian brain per se. Well, yeah. It's nice to strive for I think it's aspirational. That we should treat everybody like not a jerk. But actually, that's not the way our brains are designed. We have to do some rearrangement. Luckily, that can happen. But I've employed that trick, really, since Monica said it, I'll be behind someone in traffic and I'm growing more and more agitated. They're not doing it my way. My way is the only way. Yeah. And I'm building this whole story about them and mother, terrible person, all these things. And then I imagine they're inside listening to this show, and then I'm completely embarrassed and I'm humiliated. And then it it it it becomes this way for me to not do that Interesting. Yeah. So you have empathy for the people that you like and other people you don't bother with. Wow. That's probably It's probably true. That's hard to hear. Not just you, Dax. It's all of us. Oh, oh, no. I'm not saying you. You. Okay. But Well, you were accurate when you said me though. Yeah. All of us. We have limits. All of All of us. Yeah. But you know there are three kinds of empathy. This is really important to understand. And I know you've heard this before, but let me review it again. There's cognitive empathic. You know how people think. You can be a really good communicator because you know the language that will make sense to them. It's really important for example. Mhmm. When I was at the New York Times as a journalist, this is astonishing. We wrote for the eighth grade level of We wrote for the eighth grade level of understanding. Oh, really? Yeah. It's surprising, isn't it? But that's the level at which everybody gets. Yeah. That's great. So that's kind of empathy. And then emotional empathy. You know how people feel because you sense it you know how people feel, because you sense it yourself. And those two are important and helpful, but they can be used to manipulate. The third kind of empathy is the most important one, what's called technically empathic concern. You care about the other person. In the first two, you can get them. You know what's gonna move them, but don't care. So you want a spouse, you want a parent, you want a teacher, you want a boss who has that third kind of empathic. Because it's been pointed out that sociopaths are often the most empathetic in the first two categories you listed where they're quite good and knowing exactly what you'd like to hear and how to manipulate you. That's exactly right. That's the diagnosis of sociopathies that they have none of the third kind. They don't care about you at all. How do you nurture the third category? Like, how do you expand it? How do you exercise How do you exercise it? I think aspirationally and morally, we would all hope to have a lot of the third category. Which is not to say we do. I think the kids probably get it osmotically by having a parent or caretakers or family who really love and care for them. Mhmm. And so it's part of their emotional repertoire. And I'm a big advocate of teaching all of these things in school. It's called social emotional learning. It's a big movement now. Yeah. My kids are deeply embroiled in it. They go to a charter school and there's whole days that are dedicated to these topics. It's like in their curriculum. Yeah. And there's an abbreviation for it. They always Yeah. SEL or yeah. Social emotional learning. They're very lucky because it's quite spotty. It's a big movement globally but it's idiosyncratic where it is. So if your kids have it in school, that's great. The nice thing about SEO is it's designed so it doesn't take any time from academic learning, but it adds how am I gonna manage myself? Am I aware of my feelings? And what they're doing to me? Can I manage them well? Can I tune into other people know what they're feeling? Can I get along with them, harmonize, collaborate? These are skills for life. Mhmm. And, you know, kids need we don't need people who are only good at cognitive abilities. But suck at emotional intelligence because they are the jokes of the world. Yeah. But you wanna be working with married to, involved with people who have the full emotional repertoire. So I think it's really important kids get this in school, particularly because of the decimation of the American family. I mean, you're lucky. Your kids are lucky. If there's a mom and a dad and a home, More and more kids don't have that. Yeah. So this is a way to kind of ensure that kids will get it right. And there's this window of opportunity neurologically into the mid twenties, actually, where the brain, the emotional social circle to where the brain is taking shape. So I wanna give what I believe to be an example. And you tell me if I'm wrong, but a cool thing I heard not too long ago, as we hear stuff nonstop because we're parents of young kids is when two little kids are having it out on the playground about some situation and the parents go in or the teacher goes in and they intervene and they stop and you tell me if I'm wrong. Boom. A cool thing I heard not too long ago as we hear stuff nonstop because we're parents of young kids. Is when two little kids are having it out on the playground about some situation and the parents go in or the teacher goes in and they intervene and they stop it. And they say, you know, you got to share and you should do this and blank, blank, they say, you know, you gotta share and you should do this and blank blank blank blank. What you've robbed them of is the moment where they steal the toy The other kid cries. They see that the kids cry. They themselves internalize that they've just hurt somebody, and they go, oh, that doesn't feel good. Would you say that's part of this emotional learning? I would say that a lot of emotional learning is from other kids, from working things out and from maybe feeling bad that you made that kid cry or feeling good that you're having fun playing with the would say that a lot of emotional learning is from other kids. From working things out. And from maybe feeling bad that you made that kid cry or feeling good that you're having fun playing with the kid. That's part of normal learning. When parents intervene or teachers intervene and just direct kids of what to do, then the kids lose the learning opportunity. A better intervention might be, oh, how do you think you made Sammy? Feel he's crying now. That is that includes the child's empathic to tune in -- Mhmm. -- and to let them work it out themselves. I gotta say and I'm not trying to pat myself on the back, but I think monocle attested this as well. My kids will come in like they're crying. I'm embarrassed. I bought it and I'm like, Oh my god. I'm so delighted to hear you say that. I couldn't say I was embarrassed. I was, like, forty years old. Yeah. I I do remember Delta the youngest, like, accidentally hurt Lincoln or something, and Lincoln was crying really hard, and delta was just kind of standing there. And then she was like, I'm really embarrassed. I'm sorry. And I was like, oh my god. What a beautiful thing to say right now as opposed to running Ray or being the first part of never. And actually, the first part of emotional conscience is being able to name your feelings. Yeah. Mhmm. You know, a lot of people actually are so out of touch with their feelings as they don't know what they're feeling at the time. And the basis of this all is self awareness, emotional self awareness. Oh, yeah. And I want you to tell us about this because I think we're all very familiar with this term, emotional intelligence, which you coined and wrote a book about twenty five years ago. We're on the anniversary. And I don't know that people actually know all the and I don't know that people actually know all the mechanics of that. Well, here's the model. And by the way, I didn't coin the term. My friend, Peter Salivate. Who then was an assistant professor at Yale, wrote a little article called emotional intelligence in a very obscure journal, doesn't exist today. I was a journalist at The New York Times reading these obscure journals and I thought, that is dynamite, so counterintuitive. Putting emotion together with intelligence, but it means being intelligent about emotions. Anyway, Peter's now the president Yale. I think there's a little bit of a knee jerk sometimes with this topic. Which is like, oh, you just wanna be so indulgent with all these kids. My feelings, I didn't you know, but I don't think that's what anyone's proposing. Right? No. That's a common error about emotional tones. The other common error is it just means being nice, which is also not perfect. You you can be very firm in what you feel and what want. So there are four parts: self awareness, knowing what you're feeling, using that information to manage your disruptive emotions and marshal your better emotions positivity. Enthusiasm, knowing what other people feel, empathy, tuning into them, and then using that all to have effective relationships. So basically, it means being a successful human being as human being. And one of the most important parts of it, that's what you alluded to. It's technically, it's called cognitive control. It means you're getting really pissed off at someone. You're really angry. Or you're getting really scared when this COVID lockdown, it sees it for people to exaggerate risk and to treat themselves out. And kind of control means you know that you're getting out of Goleman. And instead of doing something unhelpful, like, okay, I'm gonna have a lot to drink. For example, this is a basis of alcoholism for a lot of people is self medication or drug getting drug use. Or yelling at someone, I'm going to manage my feelings. Cognitive control and cognitive control From neuroscience point of view, it's very simple. It means that a strip of circuitry in the left prefrontal cortex, just behind the forehead, is able to manage your emotional centers, so they don't take over your thinking brain and make you do something you're gonna really regret later. Yeah. I think it'd be helpful to just say a reader's digest version of the brain is, you know, it developed in stages as we evolved. And the center of your brain is the reptilian part So it's very instinctual. It's reactionary. And then your impulse control. All these things are kind of mid brains. And then the last thing to develop is this prefederal cortex and it is in charge of forecasting into the future and monitoring. Who do I really wanna be? All those kind of elevated, I guess, thoughts. We have Making in information, making good decisions. That's all prefrontal. It's the brains executive center. It's the good boss of the brain. The bad boss of the brain is the emotional centers in the midbrain, actually, you could call it reptilian. And it has all of our emotions, the pleasant ones, by the way, you don't wanna get rid of those. But the ones that really screw us up, the anger, the anxiety, That comes from the midbrain, particularly a structure called the amygdala, which is the brain's radar for threat. The amygdala is always asking right now, am I safe? And if it thinks it's not, the brain is designed so that the amygdala can take over the prefrontal cortex. And that is bad news. It was good news, by the way, in early evolution, early pre history, helped us survive in the Savannah and the Jungle wherever. You have to do something very quickly if you hear that rustling the bushes, if you're gonna survive and pass your genes and structure the brain onto us. Which happened presumably. And but today, it's facing symbolic challenge, symbolic threats. That guy's not treating me fairly. And you can overreact to that. This guy is pissing me off so much. I'm gonna slug him. That's the way the amygdala thinks is very childlike. So when the brain develops, Like, your kids are right now going through a five to seven shift. What are the ranges? Six and seven. About six and seven. Yeah. Yeah. So there's a real difference in every teacher knows it's between kindergarteners. You have to spend a lot of energy getting them just to focus and pay attention and third graders or fourth graders. Because the prefrontal areas are growing. Every parent sees the external signs of a child becoming more mature. But what you're seeing is the outer face of what's going on in that kid's brain. Which is growth and development. And every parent and hopefully every teacher will help kids get it right in the first place. For example, I was in a school in Spanish Harlem, very poor section of Manhattan. The kids there mostly came from a housing project next to school, very traumatizing childhood. The teacher told me, a kid came in upset. She said, what's wrong? She said, I just saw someone who was She said, I just saw someone who was shot. She asked her class how many people, if you know somebody has been shot, every hand went up. And I thought, okay, this is gonna be really chaotic classroom. They're very quiet and very focused. The teacher said here's why. Every day they do something they call belly buddies. They get their favorite stuffed animal. They lie down on the floor, they put it on their belly and they watch a cries on the in-breath fall on the out-breath rise on the in breath, fall on their They lie down on the floor. They put it on their belly and they watch rise on the in breath, fall on the under breath, rise on the in breath, and fall on the under breath. When they get distracted, they're mind wanders. They notice a wand. They bring it back to the breath. To the mantra? Well, it's kind it's very similar to what goes on. But, you know, it's basically mind training. It's like when you go to the gym and you lift a weight with every rep, that muscle gets that much It's like when you go to the gym and you lift the weight, every rep, that muscle gets that much stronger. Every time you bring your mind back, like those kids are doing, it makes the neural circuitry for focus that much stronger. And here's the twofer. The same circuitry that helps you focus and pay attention calms you down. Biggest distractions for anyone are our emotions. What that guy said to me, why didn't she answer my, you know, all of those kinds of thoughts are emotional distractors and they take our focus away from what it is we have to do right What that guy said to me, why didn't she answer my, you know, all of those kinds of thoughts? Our emotional distractors, and they take our focus away from what it is we have to do right now. If you help children strengthen the circuitry early on than that's gifted giving them for the rest of the life. Oh, wow. When you were saying that it reminded me of this thing I read, which was if kids are having really bad emotional. Tantrum. Tantrum that if you put them on a swing and you swing them, the part of your brain required to equalize equilibrium -- Uh-huh. -- requires so much focus that it actually will do that. It'll it'll interrupt that circuit. Well, it's interesting. I never heard that one, but I'll tell you a different one. Every time you have an emotion that you know you're getting out of hand and you can tell yourself I'm getting angry now. You just shifted the energy from your emotional center to your verbal cortex, and it starts to change the heft of the negative emotion. So naming and emotion is very powerful control mechanism too. And the the principle is the same. It's what you're just saying. You're shifting the energy from the part of the circuitry of the brain, which is manifesting the emotion to some other part of the brain. It's a kind of a distraction strategy. My wife and I, when we would have an argument, it didn't matter what it was supposedly about. It was actually the same Goleman. At this deeper level. Okay. Yeah. Because she wrote a book about this, and I have to recommend it's called emotional alchemy, and she talks about ten of the most common patterns like unlovability, feeling that you're never gonna have someone tune into you, nobody cares, fear of being abandoned, things like that. These are like the primal patterns that are getting triggered and you know the way a habit gets formed. You have a trigger. You go through the same sequence like whatever happened to you that you would now recognize. And then there's some kind of then there's a kind of reward. The reward is that you don't have to face the deeper feeling like total, like, I'm wiped out because someone abandoned me. I'm helpless if I'm alone. You don't have to feel that. And so you might cling or you might preemptively abandon. I think she writes about this. So I clang and then when it's not reciprocated, I abandon. There you go. Yeah. But basically, what's going on is an underlying fear of abandonment, and at the core of that fear is a very deep terror, actually. That you don't wanna feel. So anyway, once she recognized and I recognize, then we'd have our fight and then we'd separate, and then we think about it. We come back and say, you know, when I was a kid, we would identify the childhood source to each We come back and say, you know, when I was a kid, we would identify the child that's sourced to each other. And all of a sudden we had a great affection for each other. Is this like wounded other kids? But it's because we could see the pattern. So if you wanna change a habit like that. You have to become familiar with the pattern. You have to know what the triggers are, so you can recognize it as it's happening. And then change what you do and get a better reward. Man, you're so right to the empathy part. So I think when couples get in a fight, I'll just speak for myself. Sometimes when my wife and I get in a fight, she's fighting her mother and I'm fighting my dad. Right. But we're both taking it so we're both taking it so personal. And then to your point, the times I can recognize, like, oh, yeah. When she was vulnerable, this person exploited that. Well, I'm not gonna do that. But, boy, I feel so bad that that's why this is the reaction that this poor person had their vulnerability exploited, and through that I can find compassion like you're saying. But let's go back to hell that began. Usually, what happens is that you or she does something that triggers that primal pattern in you. And when you're triggered, it triggers something in her. It's a primal pattern. So basically, it's two amygdala having simultaneous hijacks and you can never settle things well when you're having a big liejaks. Now I have a friend John Goleman. John. We love him. We love him. You talk to John. Yeah. So John has the love lab at University of Seattle. And he advises a couple separate for about twenty minutes. So the amygdala can calm down and then come back and talk it so their amygdala can calm down and then come back and talk it over. That makes sense. I was gonna bring that up actually when you talk about areas of your brain as I remember reading this book on killing and it talked about in World War one, in the trench warfare, something like forty percent of the guys that had been killed, they didn't fire their weapon. And they're like, well, what happened? Why wouldn't they have shot as someone was running that? You that it seems like common sense. And then they come to find out, well, once your heart rate gets above a certain level, you actually can't use your frontal lobe. Right? The survival instinct -- Yeah. -- your heart rate is an external monitor of what's happening with your amygdala. Oh. So you're having a you're having your amygdala hijack as your heart rate increases. Particularly when it gets really high. So you can't think very well. So it is very easy to drop a bomb on a village from a plane or to use a drone to kill people because you're not anywhere near the person. When you're in trench warfare or hand to hand combat, it's much harder. To kill the other person because it's a person. Yeah. Yeah. Well and they were also saying is we've stupidly broken down. What we think our response is is to fight or flight. It was a binary option when they really studied the animal kingdom. What you realize is that, like, ninety five percent of conflicts actually resolve with posture submit. So really the bear goes up on its hind legs. Generally, the other bear looks down. They don't always fight or rung. And so we do that too. So they were that charging person as a posture. A loud bang. Okay. I give up. I'm gonna look down. I surrender. Right. And so they hadn't even thought about that. And then so all the training for World War two and then Vietnam was training these guys out of letting their heart rate get that high and then making their instinct to be to fire and not submit, which is wild. You know, the military has really gone into the study of this physiology in an applied way. I'll share with you and your listeners a way to abort a middle hijack Oh, please. I need it so bad. Don't we all. So this is something I understand is being used by Navy SEALs when they're going into operation. So It's very simple. You take a very deep breath so your belly expands. You hold it as long as it's comfortable. And then you exhale very slowly. And you do that like six to nine times. And the research shows that your physiology shifts from that fight or flight response you're talking about to a recovery, relaxation response. Technically sympathetic nervous system parasympathetic. And it's something you can do on the spine. I've been teaching this to a frontline medical people these days who are really stressed out. Yeah. And, you know, there are other things you can do that will help you be triggered less often or if you are triggered less intensely or recover more quickly. The definition of resilience is how long it takes you to recover. The quicker you recover the better your resilience. Because you can't determine when you're gonna be triggered. Yeah. You can take some control. So if that exercise of breath focus that the kids were doing -- Mhmm. -- if you do that as an adult, you want just watch your breath. Every breath, in breath, and out breath, and so on. That actually changes your physiology and your brain circuitry. So that you handle hijacked situations better. Seems too easy. I know. But You're right. You're right. I think that's why people don't do it because they're like, oh, but it works. Well, the thing is this monika. There's a dose response relationship. So the more you do it, the better benefit. It's like exercise. You have to make it a priority. It's very easy not to do it. I'm like a industrial strength meditator. Now I wrote this book altered traits about the research on now. I wrote this book authored Traits about the research on meditation, And now I'm a total believer because I see that it actually pays. And so, basically, the mind training with the breath. Is that kind of exercise. It's shifting your brain surgery, and that takes time. Just like building muscles takes time. Right. Same thing. Okay. Now when you wrote emotional intelligence, I think people traditionally thought an indicator of success. However, you wanna measure that educational achievement, financial, whatever. That IQ would be a predictor of that. Sure. And that's not the case, is it? Well, it's a little counterintuitive when you're in school IQ is predictor. The kids who get the best grades tend to have the higher IQ. When you get in life, Then there's a funny thing that happens. There's what's called a floor effect. Let's say you're gonna be an MBA or get a master's in something. To accomplish that, you need an IQ about a standard deviation above the norm. Hundred and fourteen, hundred and fifteen, but everybody else has that high in IQ. So then, for example, an engineer. Engineers get hired, and now they're working with other engineers have the same background. Their IQ is not an advantage. It's how they handle themselves and how they handle the relationships that makes them an outstanding performer. And that is something we're never taught in school. But everybody knows it from life. I got around the world asking people all over. Tell me about the worst boss you ever had and the best boss you ever had. And the best boss invariably defines emotional intelligence, and the worst boss is some kind of jerk or pardon me on your podcast and asshole. Sure. You can say asshole as much as you'd like. Okay. Thank you very much. We're free of the FCCs. Okay. Oh, it's a possible. Right. Right. Yeah. Yeah. We can definitely need we can play dry in your name. Anyway so basically, to your point, I think that success in school has a lot to do with IQ. And after school, it doesn't have that much to do. mean, there was a study friend of mine did of engineers. Get this. They raided each other. Who's the most effective who's the most effective engineer? And it turned out there was zero correlation with IQ, very high correlation with emotional intelligence. They were the team leaders. They were the people that were very They were the people that were very persuasive. The people who tuned in, who got along with everyone, and who managed themselves well. Well, I gotta say anecdotally, I have several different friendship circles, but within that friendship circle, there's no correlation between book smarts or IQ Sure. Spatial relation credibility -- Yeah. -- and their achievement. In fact, more often than not, it's the opposite of that. It's people that people want to be around that did they enjoy interacting with, that get hired over and over again, you know. I realize this when I went to my twentieth high school reunion, And I saw who the most successful kid in my class, so I grew up in the central valley of California. Oh, like big farm town. So this twentieth high school reunion, The kid who was most successful twenty years out was not the valetorian, not a kid who had great test scores. Is this someone who you really enjoyed being with? Great human being. And I think that's the story of our lives. You wanna be friends with people who tune in to you, who care about you, who we get along with? Twotime tellers. It's not IQ. Stay tuned for armchair expert. If you dare. We are supported by Kiwi co. Hands down my favorite toy that exists for children. We love Kiwi co for the kiddos. Yeah, Because it's not just a toy they're given they play Yeah. 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That's thirty percent off your first month at KIWIC0 dot com promo decks. We are supported by door dash. We were just in were just in Hawaii. That's That's right. There was two food options in the whole There was two food options -- Yes. -- in whole area. And then for kicks, I was like, I'm going to pop on door dash and see what's And then for kicks, I was like, I'm gonna pop on DoorDash and see what's available. What did you What did find? Well, the sky was the limit. What we ended up getting was virtually everything the Cheesecake Factory sells. We got so much food. It was so It was so delish. It was so delish. So DoorDash, they really saved the day. Now, if you want Chinese and they want pizza and someone's craving fro-yo, there's something for everyone on door dash, continue supporting restaurants in your community Now if you want Chinese and they want pizza and someone's craving Froleo. There's something for everyone on DoorDash. 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So you're hearing this and you're going, oh, I'd like to succeed in life. Oh, it doesn't have to be IQ. Emotional Intelligence is just as relevant. I can expand that. Right? Well, this is the nice thing about emotional intelligence. IQ essentially is a metric for how quickly your brain acquires new information. It doesn't change much through life. Actually, emotional intelligence, the good news is it's learned and learnable. So if you got it right in the first place, say, SEL, you got it in school or your family gave it to you. Great. But, you know, it's like going to the doctors is a profile of strength and weaknesses and across self awareness, self management, empathy, and how you get along with other people in your relationships. And I've subdivided that. I have a thing called the emotional social confidence, inventory where people who know you well rate you on obvious indicators of that, and then you get it fed back hopefully in a way it's news to use. her. Oh my my gosh. Okay. So you would advocate that you hand out this questionnaire to people that are in your life or how would you do? No. No. It's used in businesses really for leadership development, particularly. Okay. think we could all benefit from this. Anybody could, but but you can just ask your friends, someone you trust. What do you think are my strengths? What could I get better at? Mhmm. You know, and ask, like, three people. And see if they converge. So self awareness, I think we all have an idea of what that is. But how does one evaluate whether they're very self aware or not. What kind of questions could they ask? Well, the easiest index of that is how you see yourself versus how other people see you. Robert Burns said, oh, that the gods, the gift would gee us to see ourselves as others see us. He was irish, so he could Ryan give him some sense. What he's saying is that this is a real unusual information to get. It's kind of precious really. To get someone to be candid with you, like, what am I really good at? And what am I not so good at? Yeah. And then to compare that with how you see yourself, the bigger the gap, the more work you can do in self awareness. I would say. Mhmm. Self management, you can do a rough index because it's on the one hand, dampening down or not being taken over for so long by your disturbing feelings, my anger, my fear, or whatever, my self doubt. Marshalling enthusiasm, passion towards your goals, or staying positive when things turn bad. Can you do that? That's part of self management. Then there is a it's a little tricky because people think they're really good at empathic, but people around them may not agree. That's why you wanna ask someone else. Yeah. I imagine it'd be hard to tell somebody that they are lacking in one of these. You know, I feel like if someone asks me, I'd be very nervous to tell them the truth. Yes and no. It depends on the strength in the kind of your relationship. If you trust each other, and you can be candid with each other, then you can have this conversation. Yeah. You look at your friendship network and then you think, well, who are really the people I can be honest with and who are honest with me. That's a smaller subset always. Yeah. Now, what kind of impact does your emotional intelligence have on your health per se? Oh, there's a very strong correlation because of the relationship between your emotional state in your health. If you're very positive, it's good to your immune system, your cardiovascular system, the body likes positive emotions. And if you're stressed out, then all of that suffers. So being able to manage stress, which basically comes down to how do you handle your anxiety. Is really important for your health, and that's been shown in a zillion ways now. Very strong relationship. People who get angry easily from childhood on are more likely to die early. Uh-huh. And it's been found with all kinds of emotions. So you said you're twelve years in a. So one of the classics there is people use a substance alcohol to manage their emotions instead of finding a way to do it without that substance, which is what AA is all about. It's brilliant. Really brilliant. And I do think everything's so binary in the way people think, but I think people can identify what colleagues doing. We're trying to regulate our emotions with this pill, this drink, this powder. And yet, they miss the fact that they're regulating it through relationships, through food. Many of us are attempting to regulate our emotional state with something external. Well, I would say that the more you can do it internally, the better. But if you have a spouse, It turns out that each of you is a biological part of the other system. One of the great sadness is as sources of grief when the spouse dies, is that you lose that capacity. My wife and I hug each other every morning. It feels great. But that's part of my managing my own internal state and probably the same for her. And there's a hundred ways in which a romantic partner or a life partner does this for each other. So part of the sadness of losing someone like that. DeForest is the same, is that you have to recalibrate in a deep way how you handle yourself. Mhmm. Mm Yeah. Oof. Did you read blank by chance? The Malcolm Gladwell book? Yeah. Well, the thing I liked in there was I also think we have this kind of flawed understanding of emotions versus logic. And it's always been pitched to us in this kind of again, binary way where they're in opposition to one another, or that logic is the thing to listen to. But metrological women are emotional. Yes. That tends to be the party line. Yeah. But the thing that I really liked is he cites a study where they asked major league batters how they decide whether or not they're gonna hit a pitch. And they all have an explanation, and it's a cognitive explanation. Well, I look at their shoulder and when it drops to blah blah blah blah. Well, then they figure out how long before the ball is wound up to when they have to make the decision. And what they immediately realize is know how long it takes for all those things to happen in the brain, and so that can't be happening. So they couldn't possibly be noticing that, then thinking about that, then doing this. And then they hook up their brains to, like, a mini MRI or something, and they watch them take swings. And it's just the emotional core of their brain fires every time. There's no pre funnel stuff going on. Then you realize, oh, the best bathe are making a decision of what ball to hit based on an emotion? Yeah. And probably the basal ganglia is involved. Oh. The basal ganglia is a more primitive part of the brain than the most center. It's beneath it. It's just above the spinal cord. And our habits are housed in the basal ganglia. And so Someone who's at the professional level in baseball has swung that bat hundreds of thousands of times. And the basal ganglia learns a lesson each time. When I did that, when I swung that way, I hit the ball and when I did it that way, I missed. Basically, what Malcolm is saying is that primitive parts of the brain that are pre verbal, that is that act before we can think in words, are making decision that I'm gonna swing for that ball or not. And it's because of your lifetime of experience. And so much of what we do is automatic automatize this way. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it's so fascinating. Could you either alleviate or tell me I'm on the right path to be panicking? I feel like With the increased communication between younger people and myself too, happening via social media, happening via tech, happening, you know, almost never even a voice call anymore. What impact is that having on this generation's emotional intelligence? We're waiting to see, but I I'm a little nervous about it because I think that people are being unskilled, kids who are sitting at home and going to school online aren't having a chance to hang out with other kids. Mhmm. With and the brain is designed to learn from life. When it comes to emotional intelligence. So not being able to be with your friends means you're missing some lessons. And I don't care how old you are. Two year old is one set of lessons, five year old, another, ten year old, another, fifteen year old, another. But they're all from face to face interaction. That's what we're designed for. And the brain picks up the richest signals face to face in real life. There's a diminution. For example, on Zoom, you can't have eye contact because you either look at the face or you look at the camera. You can't do both. The camera should be in the middle. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It should be right over your face, wherever Yeah. Wherever the face is used to be able to place -- wherever the face is. You should be able to place it Well, that would be great. Yeah. So we're reinventing the Armchair here, but in a good way. But anyway, So there's a diminution. So the brain doesn't get the signals it would pick up in real life. If you're next to someone like at a meeting or at dinner, and you sense what that person is feeling. Because the social networks of the brain, which we didn't talk about, your prefrontal and they're designed to make a instantaneous unconscious brain to brain link that passes emotional messages back and forth. And also synchronizes your movements and all that so you have a good rapport. That happens when you're in person It doesn't happen as well online. But seeing a picture is better than a phone call, but a phone isn't bad because The voice carries a lot of emotional information. The worst is text alone. Yeah. Texting someone or emailing. The reason is this. Particularly if you're having an amygdala hijack, you're really worked up and you're little pissed off at this person you furiously type a message and you hit send That's the amygdala. That's my favorite time to write an email. Yeah. I'm so inspired. Well, you know, I always recommend never send an email when you've been drinking a lot, not a problem for you, but late at night, don't do it. Wait till the next morning. Because The brain thinks all of the emotional nuance goes with the message, but it doesn't. It just is the words that opens a door to lots of It just is the words. That opens a door, lots of misunderstanding. It's basically called flaming. And it's been a problem on the internet since it and it's been a problem on the Internet since it began. Will you tell me the science behind how your brain is communicating emotions with another person? Is it visual? Am I detecting like visual cues from your face? Is everything? So your facial expression? Do you know the work of Paul He came up with a map of face -- Yeah. -- muscle movement. As I recall, it was backwards. At first, they just set out to document all the different ways the muscles could move. And then they realized just by doing the movements, it actually reversed engineered and gave them the emotions that it worked both ways. Yeah. That did. But first, he had to spend one year in a mirror learning control the more than one hundred and forty facial muscles voluntarily, a subset of which twelve or so, usually can't be controlled, but he learned to do it. And then he put them together. And it's it's a brilliant system, but it it's all to say you pick up promotion from facial expression to a large extent, and also from tone of voice, from body movements, You do it in dozens of ways and you do it automatically when you're with a person. You don't think about it. In fact, if you thought about it, it'd probably get in the way. You'd pick it up unconsciously. And you said something, I'm wondering if it's the same said something. I'm wondering if it's the same thing. So I regularly notice anytime I'm eating at a restaurant in a booth with another person, I start becoming aware of the fact that we mirror each other, so I put my hand on my chin, and then I noticed they have it, or maybe they did it, and now I did it, or then they leaned back and crossed it, like, you get in this dance of varying each other and you don't even know you're doing it. Is that part of it? Well, there are three ingredients to report. The first is full mutual attention. So when you're with that person, you're paying attention to each other. The second happens spontaneously. It's what you talked what you talked about. If you made a video of two people who were really sympathical interacting, and you turned off the sound and just watched their bodies, it's like their choreographed. Putting your hand under your chin and then the other person does it. That's just part of the dance. And the third thing is, by the way, it feels good. And that is a natural byproduct of rapport. The interactions you have in a day that make it a good day are the times you have rapport with people. You have good interaction. Action. And they say to the face to face interaction actually gives you the oxytocin as well. Right? Like you get something biochemically out of that that you can't get over text. You can't get it from text. You might get it from Zoom. If you have a really warm conference you might get it from a phone call. Yeah. You get it from a mutual warmth, essentially. Warm heartedness. I'm all from warm heartedness. I can feel your warm heart, by the can feel your warm weather. By the way, from the second you said, hi, you've you've really you've perfected that. It's really It's really funny you bring up the face thing. Because just this morning, my daughter came into my room really early. I was up too early then so she got up and then she came in. She's making all these faces and I I love when she does that. And I'm telling her, like, oh my god, when I was your age, this is all I did. I looked in front of the mirror, I made ugly faces, tried to make myself embarrassed, I'd laugh, it was this whole thing. And she goes, yeah, our faces move in so many ways. And I said, yeah, because we didn't always have this great language to communicate So we know how to communicate with just this thing. This is how we have communicated always. Wonder if you explain that to her. Yeah, that was just this morning, like, literally, I don't know, ten hours ago. And while I was doing it, I was hoping that was correct. I don't know if you've ever had this with your kids or it's like, you're explaining something that would be pretty sure you got it, but then there is some party who's like, I hope I have this right. Yeah. You know, the great realization in early adolescence is that your parents weren't always right. Well, at least our parents had the luxury if we couldn't find out on Google. That's right. It would take any one of these kids two seconds to realize we don't truly under and why these guys blew. That's right now. We're toast. Yeah. We have to transition into another role. We have to Google first. Yeah. I was going to go back to this other thing about how do you know what your emotional intelligence is by asking was gonna go back to this other thing about how do you know what your emotional intelligence is asking people. I recommend primer at keystep media dot com. Okay. Cause it describes each of the elements of emotional intelligence in it describes each of the elements of emotional intelligence in detail. So you can reflect on it yourself, and then you can ask people how am I at staying positive when things go bad. You can really dig down to each of the aspects if you wanna do it. Key step media dot com, I'm gonna do that. Because I think I overestimate my emotional intelligence all the time. And I think I overestimate everything about my intelligence, so it'd be it'd be nice to find out. A couple of things. One is to call building blocks emotional intelligence. It's a primer on each of the twelve subsets. The other is that remember, Dex, everybody has a profile of strengths and limitations. In my model, there are twelve parts, but four main ones and then particular abilities within each. And you can be really good at, say, empathic, but not so good at emotional self control. We're really good at staying positive, we're keeping your eye on your goal but not so good at working out differences. Mhmm. Conflict management. It It depends it's like going to a doctor getting a physical, you know? How are your lipids? What's your cholesterol? Good cholesterol? But on and on and on. So look at each part and people who coach this and a lot of coaches do this. In fact, the one set of abilities that executives are coached for the most emotional intelligence because it's key to leadership. And coaches will help someone identify something that they're not that good at, but think they could benefit from getting better. And that's a good attitude. It's not necessarily your worst thing. That may be hard for you to change, but something that could be better and that will help you a lot if you get better. I think for anyone listening like the notion that it would impact your success professionally, it would impact your success in relationships. It will impact your health. I can't imagine that that doesn't now encompass everybody has at least one of those three goals that it would be worth investing in your emotional intelligence. You would think so rationally, but think about how many people know what good nutrition is and how popular burgers would think so rationally. Yeah. How many people know what good nutrition is and how popular burgers are? Yes. True. So, you know, this is interesting. When I talk to people about how to improve your emotional intelligence, I say the first thing you need to do is ask yourself this question, do I really care? Oh, yeah. Because if you don't care, forget about it. You need to be motivated. I couldn't agree more and I'll let you know one more AA thing where there's a point where you've identified your character defects and then you kind of ask a higher power to help relieve you of these defects of character. Right? Yeah. And throughout the years when I've done that prayer, if I'm being dead honest, I say, you know, I'm not willing willing. They should have all made the good in the have, all me, the good and the bad, I pray that you take away every single defect character stands in the way of my usefulness to you and my fellow humans. And I go don't really take away my perveness. I kinda want I wanna keep that. I'm still getting a lot of joy out of that. Like, I'm not fully honest about. It's one thing to know my character defects, but there are certain ones I certainly am not ready to have taken away from me. Right. Right. We're more attached to some other facilities. There's a guy, by the way, a guy in David Smith in Peony at Colorado, who has really put together the twelve steps with emotional intelligence -- Plus mindfulness in a good way. -- I recommend his stuff, although I don't know what he has. Yeah. I just lost him the other day. Because I feel like Emotional intelligence really supports the twelve step approach. Mhmm. And I also would say that when you get to higher power, I really think meditation can help a lot too. Yeah. I'm an atheist, which is a big hurdle with the twelve steps. Mine is a hurdle. I have found many workarounds, but I'm just saying the twelve steps of AA. They say God more than one. So let's just say that. Was very interesting. So there are meditation approaches that don't have anything to do with God. Yeah. It's mind training, essentially. And it also is opening yourself to a larger awareness, which is what you want do. I would like you to make a case for meditation. So years ago, I got trained in TM. My wife and I did it twice a day. We've never been happier than we had kids. It's all fucked up. We've not meditated in years. And I can't wait till the day. I go back to it. But I do think for a lot of people, the thought of it is But I do think for a lot of people, the thought of it is intimidating. They don't think they could do it. And I'd love for you to tell us as someone who's written an entire book about it, why everyone can do it, and how they could maybe start. Anybody can do it. So I started with TM. Also, it's a good starter meditation. Then I went on to what's called insight meditation, like mindfulness is a variety of insight. And now I am interested in Tibetan teachers because I was very impressed by the quality of being. The ones who are really adept because they were very you talk about warm heartiness. I spent two years living in India and checking out a lot of different things. Oh, wow. Yeah. And I found that, like, the dalai lama, that's who I'd like to be when I grew up because of his personal qualities. The word for Donald Llama in Tibetan is not Donald Llama. It's kundan. It means presence. When you're in his presence, you feel a lot of wonderful things, including you are more loving to other people. Mhmm. It's really interesting. That's like a contact hi. The question is can you cultivate it yourself? That's what meditation does. So meditation basically, as I said before, just mind training. It's like, if you can go to the gym, if you can prioritize physical fitness, you can prioritize mental It's like if you can go to the gym, if you can prioritize physical fitness, you can prioritize mental fitness. That's what it is. But you have to make time for it. And you don't have to believe in a God or a higher power or a deity. It's all what you can do for yourself. It's internal. I think it does open you to a greater good, to a greater awareness, which I think is very concordant with what you're saying about that step. In AA. Yeah. And I know there's a lot of God talk around that, but God is code. They say that God's language is silence. It's the language of meditation. Can you get into a space of deep silence of just being with yourself in a deep way? Here's a big one. Can you let go of your thoughts? A lot of people who start meditation complain that my mind is nuts. I never had so many thoughts. Actually, that's a good sign at a bad sign. It means you're actually paying attention to the mind stream, which is like that. We just don't notice. We get carried by it, but we don't look at it. You're so right. It's not that this meditative state has introduced the racket in there. It's just you're paying attention to it for the first time. It's so funny from time your eyes open up till they close at night. Yeah. What gets you out of bed in the morning, some thought or other propels you out of bed, I've got to do this or it's time to get gets you out of bed in the morning some thought or other, propels you out of bed. I've got to do this, or it's time to get up. But the interesting thing about meditation it changes your relationship to your mind so you can be more like an observer. And you can see, well, here comes that thought. Here comes that. Cheezing, that anger, that, you know, I got triggered. You can see it more clearly. That gives you more internal degrees of freedom. You can decide. Am I gonna go with it? Or am I going to let it Or am I gonna let go? Usually, we just go with it because we don't see it at a distance. We just think, oh, this is our reality right now. And it must Be thought of right now because it's be thought of right now because it's urgent. Exactly. But one of the greatest insights of cognitive therapy is you don't have to believe your thoughts. That's major. Oh my god. Our thoughts, of course, are great. Often, but some of them really suck. Those are the ones you don't wanna believe. Those are the ones that get triggered. Like, when you get in an argument with your wife, and she gets angry with you, it's because of those thoughts. The ones that you don't really wanna believe, but you do believe because you're so convinced. Because you've rehearsed that pattern so many times. Yeah. It's hard to differentiate which ones are worth keeping and which ones are not. Yeah. Sometimes it helps to work with Sometimes it helps to work with it. So my wife integrated mindfulness with cognitive So my wife integrated mindfulness with cognitive therapy. Mindful is this method of changing your relationship to your thoughts and your feelings. So you have an internal degree of freedom. You can have a choice point you didn't have before, then you can look at the thoughts. Some thoughts are perfectly fine. Most thoughts are probably perfectly fine. Some thoughts always get you in trouble. And they're very powerful thoughts. Very powerful thoughts. Going way back to social emotional learning. Cause I know a lot of our listeners have because I I know a lot of our listeners have kids, and I wonder if you have, like, one example besides the belly buddies, which I love -- Mhmm. -- for kids to, like, practice like, a tool that kids can use. Oh, wow. You know, I've I've observed some of these classes. One of the things I like, I think second graders or first graders, they come into classroom and they say how they feel and why they feel it. You don't have to. If you don't wanna share that, you can keep it yourself. But that helps develop self awareness. Or -- Uh-huh. -- here's one I like. For the second grader, let's imagine that someone stole your pencil. Or had your pencil. How could you get your pencil back? What would make it better? What would make it worse? And the kid's brainstorm with the teacher? So what they're doing is learning conflict management or fourth grade, fifth grade. I have a partner to play, and I'm too shy of stage fright. What can you do to manage that? What would make it better? What would make it worse? Or twelve year olds? My friends want me to try drugs, and I don't want it, but I want to keep my friends. How can I do it? And they work with that. And you can see why kids love this because it helps them with the melodramas of their lives. Kids at a certain age care of us about their families than they do about their friends by the end of elementary school basically. Oh, And that means that anything that helps them get along better with their friends, and that's what SEO does is gonna be something I love. There's one. I like it's the one I like. It's the stoplight Remember, I mentioned cognitive control, being able to manage your impulses. The stoplight is a poster in every classroom. It's a red light, When you feel your upset, stop, calm down, and think before you act. That's the red light. The yellow light, think of a range of ways you could respond and what the outcome would be, green light pick the best one and try it out. And I visited these schools, Intercity in New Haven, where they were doing this, a stoplight. They do it on a lot of the SCL Prune. And I asked kids around eleven and twelve. I took them one by one. Does this program make any difference in your lives? And they all had stories. One kid says, yeah, I was in a store, my friend was stealing stuff and wanted me to steal stuff. And then I thought about the stoplight, and I walked out of the store. Wow. So it really helps kids with the challenges and dilemmas and Prizenominated of their lives. And it gives them skills that will last forever. And I feel like my generation we didn't have, didn't exist. I wish we had. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You have to do a remedial work if you're older. Yeah. Yeah. I also think there's so many layers too with conventional gender roles and what males were allowed to feel and what women were. Expected to feel like. I look forward to the day that all unravels as someone who has felt imprisoned by those expectations at I look forward to the day that all unravels as someone who has felt imprisoned by those expectations at times. But, you know, parents, because of the culture, I think, have a big role in that, in that parents tend to talk to girls about feelings and relationships and to boys about things. Mhmm. A erector sets, whatever. Yeah. And so it starts there and it's a very deep cultural pattern, at least in our culture. So it's gonna take a lot of undoing to Josh. We were both playing with our beard just now. Yeah. That's right. The mirror. That's because it's reporter. It's a reporter. Yeah. Is there anything in 25 years that didn't there anything in twenty five years that didn't age well? Is there any part that you're like, oh, new science came out or that I didn't have that right? Luckily, nothing I know about. That's impressive. And I do make it my job to know about it. I'm just doing an article for the Harvard Business Review, for example, on making the case that emotional intelligence makes good leaders, but it also makes very effective organizations. And this is kind of a new frontier, and there's a lot of data for that. So so far, the model holds up That's impressive. Yeah. Because I graduated college in two thousand. Oh. And I'm regularly spouting off stuff I learned in anthropology that has since been either one eighty or that's not how they first came to America. I mean, it's crazy how much is unraveled in twenty one years. Yeah. Especially in Anthropologie. No. It's good. Yeah. Yeah. So I applaud any book that's still relevant twenty five years later. Thanks, thanks. Yeah. Well, think we all owe you whether or not you invented that phrase, you certainly popularized it and it became something that people could express that the value and that it's something that it should be explored and promoted. And I think that's so And I think that's so wonderful. So I'm I'm very grateful for your work. This is very kind of you, and thank you for giving it a podium here on the podcast. Absolutely. I wanna repeat one more time on the website. Oh, yeah. One other thing. I just I'm starting my own podcast. Get the fuck out of here. Yeah. Really? It's called first person plural. And it's emotional intelligence and beyond. And it's just starting. It's just launched like this week. Oh, you're kidding. First person plural. I love that. First person plural. See, that's the kind of title I would have come up with, and Monica would have shot me. No. I love that. I just said, I love Tell me if you like this title. We have a parenting show from Dr. Wendy Wendy Mogo. She's amazing. I assume you probably are aware of her. And I wanted to call the show, error apparent. Error apparent? I guess I just So I just want. I can't tell you why. Air apparent or error or apparent. It was a play It's a play on air apparent. People don't even know what heir apparent is. And then even if you do know what heir apparent is, heir It it it just it wasn't gonna work out. Oh, everyone knows about first person plural. First person plural is we. It's it's it's it's it's it's it's it's Yeah. I love I love it. I need to say thank you. Tara. Tara Bear is so good. We're also a glover. Here's the things that what I realized is I have a lot of things I want to say. And if I write a book, it takes two or three years. If I do a podcast, it's like almost instant gratification. Oh, I couldn't agree with you more. I had prior to this been directing movies, it takes two years. And and it comes out on a Friday and you're like, I don't know. I hope everyone sees it. That was two years of my life. Exactly. Oh, no. They did it. Now what? Yeah. So I kind of really like in the form, I'm pretty in love with it So I'm I kind of really like in the form. I'm pretty in love with it, actually. I'm doing with my son too, which is fun. Oh, fun. Is he in the same line of work as you? No. He's more a media guy. Okay. You know, he has a degree in audio engineering, but he did not distinguish for a while. Keystep media is his company. Oh, great. Yeah. Great key step Key step media dot com. Well, it's been such a great experience getting to know you and to talk to you, and I really hope we get to do it again. I want everyone to go out and celebrate if they've not already read it and get emotional intelligence. It started this whole conversation, which is so helpful to all of us. Dr. Daniel Goleman, I appreciate your time so much. So, you know, that guy coined the term, but it's ubiquitous. Everyone knows emotional intelligence. And that's because of you. That must feel great. In fact, So Peter, who I mentioned is now the president of Yale, has acknowledged that he came up with the term, but I made it famous. Yes. You're Ray Crock. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. Does that make that make sense? Yeah. I totally get it. Yeah. Right. So Ray Crock McDonald's was McDonald's. Ray Crock came into the scene and he made him McDonald's. Yeah. It was, like, one little drive in somewhere other Santa Barbara item. Exactly. Yeah. Right? Yeah. So EQ is now a word in languages around the world. It's like a global phenomenon that never would have Peter knows and his co author Jack Mears. They know. They written that nobody would have known about it if it hadn't been for me. Yeah. That's powerful. It's so wonderful. I I hope you're proud of it. Yeah. I feel good about it. Definitely. Now, go meditate to make sure your ego doesn't. I want to thank you want to thank you. You both. This has been a real pleasure time with just like that. It's amazing when you're having a good time. Yeah. The flow state, it always feels Yeah. Alright. We'll be well. Take care. Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. We are supported by Nutrafol millions of Americans experience, thinning are supported by neutrophil. Millions of Americans experience thinning hair. It's common, even normal, but it's not openly talked It's even normal, but it's not openly talked about So going through it can feel lonely and frustrating. It's time to change the conversation and join the thousands of people standing up for their strands with Nutrafol A woman that I follow on Instagram, who I really It's time to change the conversation, enjoying thousands of people standing up for their strands with neutrophil. There's a woman that I follow on Instagram who I really liked. She is a She is a jeweler. She did a story about her vitamin routine. 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We still haven't left. have. you needed a big big dose of vitamin D from the sun. sun. I've been thinking that. I'm just sad in this apartment. Yeah. I mean, I'm not. It's a beautiful apartment. But when I'm looking at my house, I just keep thinking about spending the whole day outside. outside. I can't Yeah. We'll wait. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my god. I can't wait. Okay. So this is a fun episode because it's on emotional intelligence. Really quick though, I wanna know the answer to this. I don't, but, you know, white people became white because they moved from Africa to northern climates with way less sunshine. And they still needed vitamin D. So their skin got wider so that they could absorb more the limited sun. K. You're designed to have twelve hours of sunlight every single day. It's you're on the equator. Mhmm. And so Probably why I feel so deprived when I know Well, it stands the reason that you can't absorb nearly as much as I can in this northern climate and that you maybe would be predisposed to not get enough vitamin D. Because what happened was people who look like you who went north, they turned out looking like me. But you're here because of airplanes. Not walking and evolving. What? I'm sorry. Say it one more time. Everyone started out brown. In Africa. Yeah. And then people moved north. Right. North. And the people that moved North that had really dark skin didn't absorb enough vitamin D from the sun and they And the people that moved north that had really dark skin didn't absorb enough vitamin d from the sun and they died. Okay. And the people that were abnormally light that were left over reproduced. And of those, the lightest people thrive because they were absorbing more vitamin d from the sun and getting sick. Why are they able to absorb more just because they're white? white. Oh, because of the light, like, because of the light? Like Yeah. That's more of it. Yeah. That's why we burn. Right. And you guys don't burn as much. So that was a process that took thousands of years. Mhmm. But then your dad took an airplane here So he's designed to live in a climate that has massive amounts of sun twelve hours a day. But he finds himself in the winter months in the northern hemisphere -- Yeah. -- not getting enough sun. I have to imagine you you guys must run low on vitamin d. Maybe maybe that's why I have sad. Truly. truly. Oh my my god. Do you think? Does it rain a lot in India? India? Oh baby. The mon monsoons there. Then that's not in line with my sad. No. But Okay. In general, There's no month in India where the sun's only out eight hours a day. Maybe should go back. There's a side note. Do you know Acacia trees? Mm-mm. They're the ones that you see in Africa that look like umbrellas. Yeah. They don't have any side fully Right. And they don't have it because the sun never is going sideways across the horizon. horizon. Unlike those in the Northern climates or the Southern climates, because it's the equator it's always going directly does in the northern climates or the southern climates. Because it's the equator. It's always going directly overhead, so it would be useless to have them up. Interesting. sides. What percentage of the audience, if you had to guess likes these fun facts, This is like What percentage of the audience if you had to guess likes these fun facts. This is like me time. What was it when I fart and I don't know how it's reading? If I'm pulling it off, I just don't know. Like, that's the kind of fact I'd love to pick up, but don't know. No. I like it. Okay. It's a fact check. You check. You might as well have some facts in might as well have some facts in there. True. You know, we're all about learning. Yeah. That's incredibly incredible. Incredibly proprietary to the proprietary to the Acacia. Acacia. is. I like that I like that story. Mhmm. I wonder if you plan education up here, a, if they would even live, but if, in fact, they did live. If they would Yeah. What it is. In their sidefully. Yeah. There probably is some cousin to that tree that is here -- Okay. -- that is just a normal tree. That what we call a normal tree. Right. Big bulbous. Have you ever heard of normal trees? Yeah. Okay. Well, I hope that explains my sad because I know people just meant people meaning you dismiss it as nothing. I think I'm very indulgent of your sad. sad. In fact, just yesterday, I asked you how your sad was doing because it was cloudy In fact, just yesterday I asked you how your sad was doing because it was cloudy yesterday. yesterday. Do you not do I need to read the text to text? think it's because you felt that I was in a mood or something. something. I think you felt a mood change for me and then realized think you felt a mood change for me and then realized Do you? Uh-huh. On it was. I was walking somewhere yesterday, and I was loving walking in that gloomy weather. I hated it. Because I'm from Michigan. I don't know something nostalgic about it. And I was really, like, getting off on it. And then I thought, oh, Monica hates this. And then I text you, how's your dad doing today? Yeah. But it it auto corrected to how's your dad doing today? Yeah. And I was like, he's fine, I think. Yeah. Just a weird question. You're like placated me. Like, oh, I haven't talked to him. But it kinda made sense because his interview had come out that day. Exactly. His little portion on the fact check had come out. So I thought you were asking, like, Yeah. How's he doing where people mean to him? Right. And then I was upset because you know, I was acknowledging your side and inquiring about it -- Sure. -- all to be misunderstood like an episode of Three's company. Big misunderstanding. misunderstanding. I looked up how to fix it. Sun Sun or light therapy. There's there's light therapy. Yeah. But I have a little light source in my room that's yeah. It's supposed to help, but it doesn't. Now you need the, like, the big UV baker overhead. Like, in Alaska, they have to give the children that light therapy. It's light. I I know, but it's like, it's this big I bought one, not so I have a night but it's, like, it's this big. I bought one not so I have a night light light. light. No, it's not a night It's not a night light. It turns on a half hour before you wake up. Mhmm. And it tries to mimic a sunrise, so it starts out red and then slowly gets to a Like a device like this? Yeah. It's it's it's by hat. It's very cool. Oh, I wanna see it. It's a clock too, which I like because I don't wanna check my phone. Uh-huh. And you can do meditation. They are not sponsored. But they should be. Wow. You do a little, like, half hour meditation before bed. Oh. The lights dim for, like, twenty minutes so you can like, you know, wind down. It's a whole process so that you get the best sleep. Yes. It's a whole program so that you can sleep the best. And you know I've been on a journey with sleep. Yeah. Am. The wake up is to mimic sunrise, sunrise. So you get that circadian rhythm that gets put into gear, but it hasn't been working for so you get that circadian rhythm that gets put into gear, but it hasn't been working for me. And then I bought one of those sad lamps, so I was really excited about that. And it's like half the size of this laptop. laptop. don't trust it. You need a big, big light source. I know. In general, if you had to give a rating Uh-huh. Your sleep before you quit drinking out of ten. Mhmm. And then overall after quitting drinking. That's a good question. Oh, we can't say quit because you've drank by now because we've already been to Hawaii by Oh, right. But at any rate, go ahead. Pretend Well, yeah. I always said I haven't quit. For good. I just haven't drank in a couple months. Yeah. Before I took my hiatus -- Mhmm. -- my sleep was probably three. K. And I bet now it's six or seven. Not significant. It is significant. It Because you were discouraged the first couple weeks. You're like, oh, it's not really helping my sleep. sleep. I was, I wonder if one of the reasons among many is simply your schedule's probably way more was. I wonder if one of the reasons among many is simply your schedules probably way more predictable. Like, you leave hangs earlier than you used to -- Yeah. -- you like, I it might just be that you're much more on a schedule. That could be true. Because you're not, like, having fun and staying up till two at the handsons. I have no fun. Once a month, you'd end up being at the Hansons to, like, one or two. Yeah. Yeah. I am having a hard time though, because recently I just feel so low energy and I don't understand why, because I'm not I am having a hard time though because recently, I just feel so low energy. Mhmm. And I don't understand why because I'm not drinking, I'm sleeping seemingly better at the very least. I'm eating well. I feel like I should feel so full of energy. Yeah. I don't know why. It's another grievance. Okay. We gotta do something important. Yeah. So Daniel, he has a test emotional intelligence test. test. We haven't done a test in so long problem is she gave me the website, but I can't find the test on haven't done a test in so long. Oh, great. Problem is she gave me the website, but I can't find the test on it. I'm almost afraid to to take this because I think I have really high emotional intelligence and what if I don't? Is it I guess similar anxiety about taking a night acute test and gerund. Oh, sure. I think you're smart, but then you're gonna find out your average. Well, you know you're smart. Oh, what a fun noise your computer is making? Oh, I love that noise. If this noise agitated you, you have emotional intelligence. Alrighty. Well, it's been a long time since Alrighty. I'm I'm We're gonna have to do a test that's not Daniels. Okay. Okay? Well, we wanted to do Daniels and we simply couldn't find it. Okay. Okay. I'm sad. Go. Go. My emotions generally have either a strong impact on the way I behave little or no impact on the way I behave very My emotions generally have. Either a strong impact on the way I behave, little or no impact on the way I behave. Very strong. strong. I am generally guided by my goals and values others goals and values my goals and I am generally guided by my goals and values, others goals and values. My goals and values. When I'm under pressure, I generally have changed behaviors from normal, behaviors that remain unchanged. These are abstract questions. Yeah. I think the latter. K? Okay. I generally learn most by actively doing activities from reflecting on past I generally learn most by actively doing activities from reflecting on past experiences. I'd I'd say reflecting, I guess reflecting, I guess. K. I generally have a good sense of humor about myself or take myself seriously. Yeah. I have a good sense of humor about myself. I present myself with self assurance and having presence or with some confidence and cautiousness? The first. Arriguez. Watchmakers. Where Where there are uncertainties and are uncertainties and pressures, pressures. I am always a decisive and make sound decisions, be cautious about making the right I am always a, decisive and make sound decisions, be cautious about making the right decision. Well, we know I'm not cautious about making decisions at all. I always voice views that are unpopular and go out on a limb for what is right, or most others agree within support. Those see those that that's labeled diametrically opposed, but it's not. I would say I do both though. Well, I'd say I do a provocative Goleman. And I think sometimes I convince people where they see the merit in it. But I'll just stick with the first one. K. Right? Right? think so. Okay. I always like to take on new challenges, maintain the status quo. New challenges. challenges. I generally inspire confidence in generally inspire confidence in others, rely on others confidence. Inspire confidence. competence. I generally allow my emotions and moods to impact on my behaviors or I generally keep my disruptive emotions and impulses under generally allow my emotions and moods twotime on my behaviors, or I generally keep my disruptive emotions and impulses under control. What do you think? I want you to answer that for me. Think you let them impact your behavior. Oh, okay. When I'm under pressure, I get easily distracted in other things or I think clearly and stay focused. focused. Oh, ladder. I always do as I say I will do, do only what I have to do. Do what I say I'll do. Trust by others is automatically given to me, is built through reliability and authenticity. authenticity. The No matter. ladder. I am always flexible in how I see am always flexible in how I see events. I am always able to see events for what they are. The latter. During changing situations, I always work hard to try and keep up with the demands, smoothly handle multiple demands and shifting priorities. The latter. No? Is this you filling a house? I know. But I want you to call me, and I might not be objective about many of these. Think during changing situations Like, here's what I'm interpreting that is, like, I'm really flexible. I think what makes me director is when I get there and shit isn't the way it's supposed to be. I just immediately start figuring out how to make it work. I don't get, like, bogged down and Well, why? That was supposed to be here. And I just go, like, okay. Can make it work if we do x, y, and z. Right. I'm very flexible on that way. Sometimes though, because, like, If, like, it's top gear, then it's not. You're not as flexible. If you're the Well, no. I think that show I was immediately thinking of that show, but it would be way too hard to articulate, but we have no plan. Like, we show up there and we have cars and a premise, and I'm so comfortable knowing things will happen and we'll, like, pivot the story or find something. It's great. I always set myself challenging goals. I always complete the goals that are set for me. See, those aren't different. Like, you can set challenging goals and then complete them. I know that you have to pick. They don't like that. Well, this isn't Daniel's thing. thing. I just can't just can't pick and pick. I can't find it can't find it. Right. But Both. Okay. You're okay. don't think you're actually flexible to changing situations because listen to you. Maybe this question's just supposed to make force you to figure out the previous question. question. I set goals for myself and I accomplish set goals for myself and I accomplish goals. Which one should I pick? I think you set challenging goals for yourself. Okay. When obstacles Obstacles and setbacks occur in pursuing my setbacks occur in pursuing my goals, I always readjust the goals and or expectations, persist in seeking the goals despite what has happened. happened. I do both, you do both. You know? Right? You can't do everything. everything. I think it's saying like, I think it's saying, like, Well, Well, like here's what I'm here's what I'm saying. I I pursued directing and writing movies for a very long time. I really stick with it. Ten years. And then when that's not gonna work, I pick a new Goleman, I and then I decide to do other things. So maybe readjust. Okay. Okay. I'll I'll readjust. Generally, I pursue goals beyond what is required or expected of me. Or I pursue I just haven't thought what if this is the wrong test. test? Because I'm like, I'm not understanding Yeah. I'm not understanding how How this is relating to emotional this is relating to emotional intelligence. intelligence. either. Yeah. This Yeah. This is is great. Hold on. Let me see. But if it tells you afterwards, you're Italian. Italian. You're Italian. It says emotional intelligence test. Oh, yeah. Okay. Generally, I pursue goals beyond what is required or expected of me. Pursue goals only as far as is required of me. The first one. When I identify opportunities, I am always uncertain about whether to pursue the opportunity, proactive in pursuing the opportunity. No later. Group differences are always causing difficulties and unrest, understood and valued. valued. first one being? When I see bias and intolerance, I always challenge the initiating people. Turn a blind eye and ignore it. Yes. The former, I always help out based on the farmer. I always help out based on the tasks others need help with. Understanding others' needs and feelings. The latter, I hate helping people with their tasks. Well, you That's That's true. But you do like, like helping people with cars, you do, like, like, helping people with cards. right? I love, like, if you have a problem, I love immediately, I wanna just, like, talk about it and figure out what's going on emotionally. Yeah. You're right. But if you're like, I need to My shower head. Yeah. But I did fix your sonos, and I had a real world one day. Last time we recorded here. I fixed your treadmill. Yeah. I was telling us. Fixing my treadmill was putting the safety key back on the magnet. Yeah. Literally putting a magnet on magnet -- Mhmm. -- that fell off. And then getting your sonos all working? Yes. And then hooking up your humidifier. Yes. It was pretty good. It was very I'm trying to make up for not having done your shower Yeah. Who'd you end up having her? What competing boy? Laura's boyfriend. Oh. I always listen to the important words being said. Listen well and am attentive to emotional cues. I'd say emotional cues. I don't really believe anyone knows what they're saying. Like, I'm looking for the emotion that's happening Okay. -- not the facts of what they're say. Like, I'm so mad at so and so he tried and I'm like, you know, what something else is going on? This Okay. Okay. Others perspectives are always understood and sensitivity shown. Clouding the issues and getting us off track. Probably Probably the latter. ladder. always find social networks in the organization, get in the way of delivering performance, help create better decision networks. networks. I I don't I've never worked in that kind of environment, but I think I wouldn't like social networking. Just getting away. Yeah. Yeah. I always use informal key power relationships to get what I need, formal decision networks to get what I need. I don't know what either of those mean here. Like, do you use, like, friendly relationships you have to I think you do that. that. Like you're more likely to work on a project of someone, you you're more likely to work on a project of someone you know and like than like through a studio head or shooting. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I always give customers what they ask I always give customers what they ask for. for. I always understand customers needs and match products I always understand customers' needs and match product services. I'm not in this situation. But this is also talking about work. Yeah. You do have customers. Yeah. But we're not getting much feedback. Well, that's actually we hear from Armchair on Instagram. I'm trying to give them emotionally what they need? need. I'm not telling them not telling them. Wait. But then you understand customers' needs and match product services. Not you give customers what they ask for. No. I don't probably don't give anyone what they asked for. I always act as a trusted adviser to the customer customer. Tell the customer what they want to hear the customer what they wanna hear, act as a Advise or Yeah. It's just we customers that we are No. This This is an English an English one. So maybe customer means something else. And in in Britain. Yeah. Increasing customer satisfaction and loyalty is always part of the way I work. Is not important in achieving the sale of the ladder. ladder. The vision and mission are always given to vision and mission are always given to staff so they know where we are going. Used to inspire groups and individuals. Know where they're going. I always let people know the behaviors expected. expected. I always modeled the behaviors expected of I always model the behaviors expected of others. Ladder. I always give assignments to people who can get the job done and do it well. We'll grow and develop as a result of the challenge. The first. Interesting one. Winning people over is something that I find difficult to do. I am very good at. at. I enjoy. That's what I'm asking. I don't wanna say I'm very good at. Thank you. it. always communicate in a way that everyone understands what I'm saying, that seeks mutual understanding and full information sharing. Eron, what do you think? think that everyone understands what I'm saying. Okay. I always go along with the changes being driven by others. Or I always recognize the need for changes and remove barriers. We certainly don't go along with decisions by others. So maybe through the null hypothesis, I have to pick the other one. Okay. I was one of the worst employees. I don't think I don't think you were I'm I'm a very bad very bad employee unless you wanna hire someone who's gonna give you their opinion all the time. But But this is, let's say it's is let's say it's boss. Think of it as a boss. boss. Do you wait for the employees to tell you something needs to you wait for the employees to tell you something needs to change and then you do that? Or do you look around yourself and say, oh, that needs a change? Oh, that. Okay. Like, what you're editing? You didn't come to me and say, I can't. I'm overwhelmed editing. But I'm like, this is killing you. But the version of that editing you're doing is killing killing. Let's figure out how to Right. I always handle difficult people in a straightforward and direct manner with diplomacy intact. Direct and straightforward and aggressive and comfrontational. I always seek out relationships that are mutually beneficial that will help me achieve my end goal. Mutualie, but I don't know. I think I think so. I don't Yeah. I think so. hope. I think so. I generally have a stronger focus on tasks rather than relationships. Balanced focus on tasks and relationships. Relationships. relationships. When I work with teams, I always make it clear what I expect members to I work with teams, I always make it clear what I expect members to do. Draw all members into enthusiastic participation. Make it clear. clear. All right, score Alright. Score test. The following numerical scores are calculated from your answers to the EI test. test. If you answered honestly and accurately, your scores out of 10 for each quadrant will reflect your capability level within each of the EEI If you answered honestly and accurately, your scores had ten for each quadrant will reflect your capability level within each of the EI quadrants. Self awareness, nine. Out of what? Ten. Ten? You are listening. listening. Listening to, just kidding. So self awareness was a nine? Yep. Out of ten? Yes. Okay. Self management seven. Okay. Social awareness six. Oh, relationship management five. Oh, but do you want me to read a little bit about it? I it? Yeah. I gotta be be flexible. I gotta be flexible. So here we go. Social awareness, description. Social awareness is comprised of three competencies. Empathy, which is understanding others and taking an active interest in their concerns, organizational awareness, which is the ability to read the currents of organizational life, build decision networks and navigate politics, and service orientation, which is recognizing a meeting customer's needs, the adaptable success oriented type. Interesting. Okay. Relationship management, description. The social cluster of relationship management is comprised of seven competencies. Visionary leadership, which is inspiring and guiding groups and individuals, developing others, which is propensity to strengthen and support the abilities of others through feedback and guidance, influence is the ability to exercise wide range of persuasive strategies with integrity and also includes listening and sending clear and sending clear can then and well tuned messages. Change catalyst, which is the proficiency in initiating new ideas and leading people in a new direction. I think you have a lot of that. Conflict management, which is resolving disagreements and collaboratively developing resolutions. That's all. It's probably where a guide. Yeah. That's the negative building bonds, which is building and maintaining relationships with others, and teamwork and collaboration, which is a promotion of cooperation and building of teams. Those were your lower. But let me talk about your upper. Okay. Self awareness. Nine. Mhmm. Big one. The core of emotional intelligence is self awareness. Self awareness is comprised of three competencies: emotional self awareness, where you are able to read and understand your emotions as well as recognize or in impact on work performance and relationships, accurate self assessment, where you are able to give a realistic evaluation of your strengths and limitations, and self confidence where you have a positive and strong sense of one self worth. The starting point and key in these areas is the ability to be critically self reflective. That's great. That's true. Mhmm. Self management. Last one, this is you had a seven on. Self management is comprised of five competencies. Self control, which is keeping disruptive emotions and impulses under control, transparency, which is maintaining standards of honesty and integrity Okay. So first one I'd say was bad at. Second one I'd say I'm good at. Yeah. Honestly and integrity managing yourself and responsibilities. That's all part of transparency. Adaptability, which is the flexibility in adapting to changing situations and overcoming obstacles, achievement orientation, which is the guiding drive to meet an internal standard of excellence and initiative, which is the readiness to seize opportunities and act. act. Interesting. We love love quizzes. We sure do. We're gonna find the real one from Daniel. And then I'll give you that one. Okay. Great. Yeah. Great. Great. All Alright. right. we're back from Hawaii, and we're You're a little drunk. You're healthier, never. My sad is gone. For six days. days. You're so scared of me so scared of me drinking there? No. No. I feel it keeps coming up. What's a big change? You haven't drank for two months. I'm I'm not gonna drink a lot. I can't because I'm not supposed to go from none to a lot. Okay. Well, however you do, it'll be great. Real. I real. I never had a problem with you drinking ever, had a problem with you drinking ever. You didn't, but But it seems like in my, in my sobriety it seems like in my in my sobriety. Well, very interested in it. Yeah. I know you're You're interested, but I, I feel that it's something more, I feel that but I I feel some that it's something more. I feel that you are I can tell you what it is. Don't have one percent fear you have drinking problem. Not one. Point five? None. None. Okay. I don't have that at all. Okay. I do have the thought, is it additive or deduct it for you? Sure. And I'm only wanting you to honestly assess that. Yeah. that. If I saw that you drive so much joy from it, then to me, it would be like, If I saw that you drive so much joy from it, then to me, it would be like, yeah. Yeah. yeah. And then if you didn't drive any downside from it, I mean like, yeah, but I, I see you drink in my opinion, more habitually than it is that it And then if you didn't drive any downside from it, I mean, like, yeah. Yeah. But I I see you drink in my opinion more habitually than it is that -- For sure. -- it is. That's why I wanted to take a break. Yeah. So I'm not affected one way or another. Like, you're not annoying when you drink. It doesn't bother me when you like, for me, there's no impact on you drinking. But as someone who loves you and wants you to, like, sleep well, if that's something you like and it's gotten better. Yeah. And you have such a rock in personality sober. I guess that's the other thing. Like, I know people that are they're in as such a shell. Without alcohol, that it is really a lubricant lubricant. They kind of kind of need. And then and then and socially, it's it is infinitely better for them. And it's obvious, but you don't really have that. You don't have problem engaging without that. That's true. That's You're not, like, really inhibited or anything. No. I'm not. not. Yeah. You got to, you get a one 60 on your emotional IQ gotta you gotta one sixty on your motion line q score. Just to let you know. assume that's out of one sixty. Two hundred. Oh, well, I could do better than that. IQ things out of two hundred. What'd I say you had? One hundred and sixty. Yeah. That's above genius. Genius is above one hundred and forty. Great. You're great. You're emotionally genius. I love you. Love you.