0:00

Well. Go Mog Morgan Armchair Expert

0:02

Experts on expert. I'm Dan shepherded. I'm

0:04

joined by Mrs. Rather is. Hi there

0:07

Hi! How are you. I'm

0:09

old, I'm sleepy. Yeah,

0:11

you just had a couple big yawn. Yeah,

0:13

I do Your your yawns betrayed your energy

0:15

level. I now. I. Was a

0:18

pretty late watching make videos. Oh

0:20

okay okay. any good tips you want

0:22

to pass? Another was have any. I bought so

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many potter. Or is it okay early

0:26

wait while the I gather credit

0:28

card out. whatever if apple pay.

0:30

Oh baby. Sponsors

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sponsor Ah Today we have Doctor

0:35

Marine done on and she is

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a cognitive scientists are neuro diversity

0:39

expert, a global keynote speaker a

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board director in business leader. She

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also which will talk about is

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she was the first Rhodes scholar

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out of community college. Really cool.

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She. Has a new book out now

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called the Neuro Diversity Edge The

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essential guide to embracing Autism A

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D H D Dyslexia and other

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neurological differences. For any organization, this

1:01

is a very, very informative interview

1:03

that ended up carrying into a

1:05

bunch other stuff we've done sense.

1:08

Yeah, this is unlike any other ones we've

1:10

had. I feel like we learned a lot.

1:12

Yeah that please. Enjoy Doctor

1:15

Maureen Done! We.

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3:01

keeping it bullshit free. Hi

3:12

there. How

3:18

are you? Good.

3:20

Welcome. Jimmy said he

3:22

totally remembers that story, but he can't remember what

3:24

actor it was, but he's going to find out

3:27

from Molly. Oh, that's great. Maureen,

3:29

do you want to hear a crazy story that

3:31

has nothing to do with this interview? Absolutely.

3:33

There is some legendary

3:36

actress or in search of who, who

3:38

had a housekeeper for like 30 years.

3:40

The housekeeper was saving all of her

3:43

money and the housekeeper had built a

3:45

replica of the actress's house in Mexico

3:47

where she was from. She ultimately retired,

3:50

moved to the house. That was a replica. And

3:53

then the actress became insolvent and she ended

3:55

up moving down to Mexico and living in

3:57

the house with her former. housekeeper.

4:00

We just got confirmation that that's a story. I

4:02

can't wait to find out who... We haven't found

4:04

out quite yet who the person is. Did

4:07

Salma Hayek tell us the story? Is she

4:09

connected somehow? I feel like she's connected but

4:11

maybe that's just... I wanted to be a movie. I mean,

4:14

I want to look a movie. I

4:16

want to see the whole thing play

4:19

out. Yeah. Wow. Okay, so how long

4:21

are you in town? Until tomorrow. When

4:23

did you get here? Wednesday. I had

4:25

a couple other interviews. Okay, do you

4:27

like it out here? Absolutely. No,

4:29

I do. I lived in California for 10

4:31

years. Where? All over. For a while I

4:33

was in San Diego and Del Mar and

4:35

then I was doing work in Central Valley

4:37

of all places. Something to do with

4:39

agriculture? No. This goes back over 10 years where

4:43

there was such little expertise in

4:45

neurodiversity and I was recruited to

4:47

be a resource. So

4:50

I was doing a lot of work with Easterseals and

4:53

other organizations and so I was responsible

4:55

for 10 counties for Monterey.

4:57

Oh my lord. Bakersfield. I ended up having

4:59

to spend a lot more of my time

5:01

than I was anticipating in Fresno though and

5:04

then after that we were in San

5:06

Francisco and Palo Alto for many years

5:08

until a certain day in November

5:11

2016 when we were just talking about

5:13

that before you came

5:15

in. Completely changed my life. The same day

5:17

Trump got elected which no one anticipated, at

5:19

least people in California found out I was

5:21

having triplets. So those two pieces were amazing.

5:25

Now is this an inappropriate question? Please tell

5:27

me. When I find out someone's having triplets,

5:29

my very first curiosity is like through in

5:31

vitro or is this something that happened just

5:33

on its own and is that an invasive

5:35

question? For most people yes. It

5:38

is. Okay. I wonder.

5:40

But in my case two out of

5:42

the three are identical. I thought I was

5:44

having one. I mean I'm small right? So

5:46

I'm already like okay you're having twins. There's

5:49

two fraternal twins and then I

5:52

honestly thought the doctor was joking. He's like wait wait

5:54

wait wait there's a third heartbeat. No no. Yeah yeah

5:56

and I was like no no no no. I

6:00

never even knew anyone that had triplets, right?

6:02

I guess that's why I'm immediately curious because

6:04

I obviously knew a bunch of twins growing

6:07

up, updated a couple different twins. They're run-of-the-mill

6:09

twins. Triplets, now you're getting into some rare

6:11

territory. Well, it's supposed to mean you have the

6:13

identicals because you can't predict that at all.

6:16

Yeah, that's an egg splitting in

6:18

half. Correct. Yeah. But

6:20

then another egg also. But then I also have,

6:22

yeah, I wish my son we were happy that

6:24

the third triplet was a different gender. That

6:27

is helpful, right? Yeah, because we already see

6:29

like even now my son feels left out,

6:31

you know? I think they're best friends, but

6:33

at the same time, the two-thirds are just

6:35

inseparable, right? So can you

6:38

imagine another girl that's just, you know, yeah. It would

6:40

have killed her. That would have been harder. That would

6:42

have been bad. That was my first thought when you

6:44

said two are identical. We have two children. And when

6:46

it was talked about having a third, I'm like, absolutely

6:48

not. Two of them will ruin the middle one. That's

6:50

just how it works. Not planning on three. Yeah.

6:52

We thought we were going to want, you know, one

6:54

and then maybe like a second later if we were

6:57

lucky and then it's like, wow. We had some struggles

6:59

that first night. It was so prepared to be told

7:01

like it didn't work out at all, right? And then

7:03

it was like, wow. Triplet?

7:06

Are you serious? Worked out 300%. They

7:09

were born really early, 28 weeks. Which

7:11

is normal. Things actually went pretty well

7:13

up until the day they were born. You

7:15

hope for like 32, 33 weeks,

7:17

all triples are most likely going to be born

7:20

early. But 28 weeks is

7:22

really, they were about two pounds each. So

7:24

they spent three, three months in the NICU. Oh,

7:27

that's so hard. That was tough. But

7:29

they're doing great. You've been through one

7:31

of the most unique experiences of

7:33

anyone we've ever interviewed, really, because I only

7:35

have the experience of one arrives and you're

7:37

like, oh, my God, I hope I can

7:39

take care of this one thing and give

7:41

all my attention to this one thing. I

7:44

can't even imagine holding three and going like,

7:46

I'm going to do my best. It's scary.

7:48

Yeah. It's interesting because

7:51

it was hard to even get people

7:53

to help us. By the time

7:55

they came home from the hospital, they were still

7:57

only five pounds each and they still seemed really

7:59

fragile. My husband and I were just

8:01

a great team. And were you on your own in

8:03

the Bay Area? So I lost both my parents

8:06

relatively young. And then my husband and I are

8:08

both neurodiversant too, yet we have triplets. Oh wow.

8:11

It's a super complicated but hopefully inspiring

8:13

story I hope for other people out

8:15

there. But we were in the Bay

8:17

Area at the time we made this

8:19

decision then to move back to

8:22

where I grew up. Not that

8:24

we would have a lot of necessarily help, but the kids

8:26

kind of get to know their cousins. So you can

8:28

have a backyard to dump them in and let them

8:30

run wild and feral. Yeah. But

8:34

what I guess I didn't

8:36

anticipate in making that decision,

8:39

having lost both my parents

8:41

and then going back to the home. Somewhere

8:43

where I never really anticipated moving back

8:46

to. My husband and I ended

8:48

up being in a situation where we really could work from

8:50

anywhere. We had a lot of relationships globally. And

8:52

after both my parents had died, I put everything into

8:55

a storage unit. And then I started going through all

8:57

that stuff. You're processing all this

8:59

shit. Yeah, all these little babies

9:01

too. And then going to

9:03

places where my parents, it was very

9:05

weird because of grief and loss from

9:07

an early age. There were certain memories that just

9:09

weren't as accessible to me. But then

9:11

being back there with my

9:14

own kids, all these memories started coming

9:16

back. Yeah, because I'll say also just

9:18

the act of having kids forces you to

9:20

remember your childhood in a weird way. For

9:22

me at least. Absolutely. You're watching

9:24

them go through this stuff and then you just inevitably start

9:26

remembering where you were at when this happened or what environment

9:29

you were in. You kind of use yourself as a comp,

9:31

I guess, as you're going through this. And how were you

9:33

parented and what did your parents do and what worked and

9:35

what didn't you like? Right.

9:38

Yes, it already forces you back a little bit and

9:40

then to be physically where you were at too. It's

9:43

been an interesting experience. All right, so can I ask you a

9:45

very frank question with tons of love? I don't know

9:47

that you're neurodivergent and I don't know which

9:49

variety and I want to make sure I'm

9:51

as helpful as humanly possible. I have a

9:54

good friend who's autistic and I know how

9:56

to be very explicit so I don't know

9:58

what version you have. I'd love to

10:00

know if there's anything I can do that is helpful. Okay,

10:02

yeah, part of what's exciting me to be

10:05

here is to talk about the complexity and

10:07

nuance in which neurodivergent sees can manifest themselves.

10:09

So I'll start out by saying that when

10:12

I tell people I'm neurodivergent, people that

10:14

know me really well, if I don't

10:16

say the type, most people would assume

10:19

I'm dyslexic, but I'm not. So this

10:21

is certainly interesting is that a

10:23

lot of how I present ends up being

10:25

a dyslexic profile, but I'm actually hyperlexic. There's

10:27

a couple of different, so I'll get into

10:30

the complexity there, but I started reading from

10:32

a really young age. I was reading full

10:34

books by the time I was three. In

10:36

college, I was reading 10 books a day,

10:39

but I was doing it in this way that was

10:41

not typical. You can't read two pages with either

10:44

eye, can you? I have seen a doc

10:46

about people that can do that. This

10:48

is me self-reflecting rather than a

10:50

scientific theory, but I've realized that

10:52

what I do is somehow my

10:55

brain, basically the whole phonological loop,

10:57

how most people read, it's disrupted

10:59

or I'm not using that

11:02

part of my brain and I'm

11:04

abstracting meaning just from pattern abstraction with

11:06

my eyes. So like a full snapshot of it

11:08

at once. I can't abstract the meaning. So it's like

11:10

I don't sound out every word. So I can get

11:12

through a book in like half an hour and

11:15

then like get a mind map out. Now that

11:17

doesn't work really well if I really wanna enjoy

11:19

like a piece of fiction. Well, my immediate

11:21

question was gonna be, so I'm the opposite,

11:23

right? I'm dyslexic, but I find that the

11:25

upside of it is I have insane retention.

11:27

I seem to have better retention than the

11:29

status quo. I seem to be over indexing.

11:31

So I'm wondering is the reverse true for

11:33

you? So if you're taking on so much

11:35

at such a speed, do you feel like

11:37

you pay a price with retention? Where

11:39

I pay a price, this is why I

11:42

push myself not to do it for fiction.

11:44

It's more like when I was doing my

11:46

PhD and I was doing another master's at

11:48

the same time and doing very interdisciplinary work

11:50

and I was just trying to get information.

11:52

It's helpful if you're just abstracting information, but

11:54

it's really not enjoyable if you're trying to

11:56

like really enjoy

11:58

your Yeah, right.

12:00

So but I think the interesting

12:02

price and this is where I

12:04

come across as dyslexic is that

12:06

I was reading so early that

12:08

I think my brain is so

12:11

wired in an orthographic sense that

12:13

sometimes I mispronounce words that I

12:15

read before I heard them or

12:18

if I haven't heard them, you

12:20

know. And so dyslexia obviously

12:22

is a connection with the phonological loop. Explain

12:25

the phonological loop because I don't know. There's

12:27

a verbal working memory. So I'm a

12:29

cognitive scientist by training. So that's what my

12:31

PhD is in. So that also I guess has

12:33

helped me think a lot about these types of

12:36

things. And generally speaking, phonological awareness is really important

12:38

to reading. There's inner speech going

12:41

on. It's how you sound out words

12:43

and pronounce them correctly. And so it

12:45

kind of factors into how the brain

12:47

works with reading is spelling. And so

12:49

for me, just because I, you know,

12:51

this is my sort of theory myself.

12:53

You're juggling two things. You have your self-narrative

12:55

and then you have your work as a

12:57

cognitive researcher. These aren't always in accord and

12:59

they wouldn't make for a good study or

13:01

a published work. But alas, you're also a

13:03

person who has a story about them. Yeah,

13:06

for sure. You know, just thinking about it,

13:08

I realize I'm increasingly becoming more conscious of

13:10

it at certain points in my life. I maybe

13:12

would have say like preface rather than preface,

13:14

right? Or something like that. This orthographic

13:17

that's so strong.

13:19

That's where your dominant language is.

13:22

Yeah. And so I'm bypassing this

13:24

phonological loop. And so it's like

13:26

my eyes are abstracting meaning.

13:28

So especially for things that I've

13:30

never heard before, you know, it

13:33

doesn't seem to happen for things

13:35

I've heard first auditorily and

13:37

hadn't read. An

13:39

easy analogy, correct me if I'm wrong, would

13:41

be like, I think a lot of people

13:44

can read a foreign language and even write

13:46

a foreign language, but they can't speak a

13:48

foreign language or they're strong at the reading

13:50

and writing of the foreign language. But the

13:52

verbal aspect, there are six deviations below that.

13:54

Right. That's just sort of the surface,

13:56

what I'm hoping to convey to in this

13:58

interview is how so many neuros, There's a

14:01

lot of people out there that don't fit

14:03

one box really neatly and are looking for

14:05

their tribe. It's complicated. And for me, I

14:07

knew I was hyper-lexic as a child, but

14:09

then I actually excelled through elementary

14:12

school. I was lucky that I was in an elementary

14:15

school where people that did well in school

14:17

were actually popular. It was kind of a

14:19

nice situation. But

14:21

then when I was in high school, I was

14:23

at a public high school. There was 4,000 students

14:25

and I really, really struggled in high school. I

14:27

really struggled to fit in socially and I

14:29

started to become much, much more aware of

14:32

how spiky my profile was. Clearly, at that

14:34

time, you had an explanation, right? One of

14:36

the more fascinating examples of this I ever

14:39

heard is that book, The Big

14:41

Short, was based on an article in Vanity Fair and

14:43

it profiled the guy who had been

14:45

smart enough to bet against all

14:47

of these mortgage-backed securities. And he

14:49

had a glass eye. And so

14:51

his whole life, he explained his

14:53

social, in quotes, awkwardness by having

14:55

this glass eye. And

14:58

then he had a child who was struggling

15:00

in school, went through a barrage of tests

15:02

and was diagnosed as autistic. And the father

15:04

said that he's not autistic. He said, well,

15:06

here's the test. You tell me how he

15:08

would answer to these and see if it's

15:10

right. He himself took the test and went,

15:12

oh my God, I am autistic. This whole

15:14

story about my glass eye, it wasn't the

15:17

glass eye, it was autism. You'll fill in

15:19

the blank, right? Oh, absolutely. That's

15:22

how our brains work. And for me,

15:24

it was extra complicated because my mom

15:26

was dying from breast cancer. And so

15:28

essentially what happened in high school anyway,

15:30

I wasn't told of any particular

15:32

diagnosis, but I was struggling. You know,

15:34

I had a lot of sensory sensitivities,

15:37

especially during lunch hour. That was an

15:39

absolute nightmare. I mean, absolute torture, the

15:41

auditory overwhelm. The only place I could

15:43

go without a hall pass was the

15:45

bathroom, right? I remember in high school,

15:47

escaping to the bathroom. I want to

15:49

hug. I know. I hate that.

15:53

It's really complicated though, is we had such a

15:55

short period of time where we could have our

15:57

lunch. And so some high school counselor caught me

15:59

through. out my lunch and she got it

16:02

completely wrong. So then she had in her mind I had an eating

16:04

disorder. I totally didn't. I didn't

16:06

even think about that kind of thing. And

16:08

so then she calls up my parents and

16:11

tries to hospitalize me for an

16:13

eating disorder, which I didn't have.

16:16

So my mom, she knew I didn't have

16:19

an eating disorder. And so suddenly I'm being

16:21

called out of class for doctor appointments that

16:23

weren't really doctor appointments. And she'd pick me

16:25

up and we'd go out to lunch

16:27

together. And so that made it so much

16:30

harder than to lose her so young

16:32

because I felt like she knew me better

16:34

than I knew myself. And then I was

16:36

bullied in high school. I had so many issues.

16:38

And then I ended up graduating early and going

16:41

to community college. This is why you're a

16:43

spokesperson for community college. Yeah, absolutely.

16:45

Only community college that became a

16:47

Rhodes Scholar. That's

16:49

cool. Oh, I love that.

16:52

The first, yeah. I think there's maybe one or

16:54

two more after me. Yeah, I was the first.

16:56

And you got it from community college or just

16:58

that was part of your journey? Yeah, it was

17:00

part of my journey. So I graduated high school

17:03

early. How early? I was a junior. So

17:05

like 16 years. Like 15 and a half.

17:07

And then I'm an elected official now. So

17:09

I'm one of the few openly neurodivergent elected

17:11

officials too around the country. So I was

17:13

board chair and I served as a trustee

17:15

at the same college I got my start

17:18

at. But yeah, I graduated high school early

17:20

and then was at community college and then

17:22

transferred to University of Chicago. I had done

17:24

so many credits at community college that I

17:26

was in like a joint bachelor master's program

17:28

at University of Chicago. It was just incredibly

17:30

unusual to have that much

17:33

of your undergraduate education

17:35

be accounted by community college and be

17:37

competing with people that spent four years

17:39

at Harvard. So a good part of

17:42

my undergraduate education that they had evaluate

17:44

me on was from community college. Right.

17:47

Really quick back to being in the

17:50

bathroom during lunch break. Did

17:52

you have a story that made sense

17:54

to you? Was there something that

17:56

you identified as like well this is the

17:58

issue. What was interesting was most of

18:00

my life I was just identified as

18:02

being gifted. I was a pianist competing

18:04

at age four and just doing so

18:07

many things that were sort of abnormal. I

18:09

think it was just a very confusing time

18:11

for me in high school because I always

18:14

felt- You had already felt different. You had been different.

18:16

I knew I was different. It was always a

18:18

positive thing. It was always a positive thing.

18:20

And then I'm in this environment where my

18:23

profile was just so much more spiky than

18:25

it had been. It's even started to affect

18:27

me academically, which had never happened before. I

18:29

was just confused. I didn't have a full

18:31

explanation of what was going on. And then

18:34

when I was in my 20s, I was

18:36

diagnosed with ADHD, but I

18:38

knew that was definitely not the full

18:40

explanation. My husband's ADHD

18:42

and he's textbook ADHD and I'm not like

18:45

him, but there's some things that make sense.

18:47

I was pretty impulsive as a teenager too. I

18:49

did so much humanitarian work. I would get on

18:51

planes, go to places like Zimbabwe. It was a

18:53

lot more impulsive than I am now, but going

18:55

through this process when I moved back and digging

18:57

through all this stuff in storage. And I realized

18:59

that I fit in this what we'd call ADHD,

19:02

sort of these intersections of

19:05

ADHD and autism. I think this

19:07

is important. We just had Lisa DeMauron

19:09

who's a clinical psychologist and we spent

19:11

a lot of time talking about how

19:13

kind of arbitrary all of the labels

19:15

are in the DSM. It's very tempting

19:17

to think that these are cut and

19:19

dry conditions like type one diabetic or

19:22

something. But in fact, it's just this

19:24

broad spectrum of human behavior

19:26

that we do our best to

19:28

say it's this. And obviously it

19:30

applies here with all of this

19:32

neurodivergence, right? Yeah, human beings are

19:35

incredibly complex and part of why I focus

19:37

my expertise and studies in this

19:39

area is I think there's so much we still

19:42

don't know, right? I think we're in the infancy

19:44

of understanding cognitive science and neuroscience. Is it almost

19:46

a waste of time to be trying to delineate

19:50

the difference between all the little

19:52

things? I think that's part of the

19:54

path to progress, but for

19:56

a long time I kind of felt like I'm not really sure where I fit

19:58

in here. I don't really fit in anywhere because I'm like... at the

20:00

intersections of these boxes, right? Yeah. And

20:02

then one of the strongest neurodivergencies,

20:05

I think, that come into play

20:07

now for me is conceptual synthesis. Yeah.

20:10

Oh, we were concept. Well,

20:12

we were saying synesthesia. Yeah. That's

20:14

different. That's different. Well, no, no, no, no. There's 80

20:17

plus types of different synthesis. And I

20:19

actually have two different types. And there's

20:21

over representative in the arts and musicians.

20:23

And there's also some Nobel prize winners.

20:25

So the two types that I have

20:27

that I think have really been a

20:29

huge asset, and to me, neurodiversity is

20:31

a huge asset. It shouldn't be seen

20:33

as a trade off. And that was a big part of my book. There

20:35

needs to be a paradigm shift. We need to think about

20:37

this differently. But for me, having

20:39

started out my childhood as a

20:41

musician, I think what helped

20:43

me. So I have one of the

20:46

more common types of synthesis where sounds

20:48

and music is translated into like colors.

20:50

Literally before you got here, we were doing a fact

20:52

check when you were talking about the exact thing. Like

20:54

10 minutes ago. Yeah. That's so great. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

20:56

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Toriyemos. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

20:58

You know, lots is common to musicians,

21:00

especially. And artists was, I think maybe

21:03

even more strong for me now is

21:05

just something called conceptual synthesis,

21:07

where I experience ideas in a way

21:10

that is translated as shapes. Everyone thinks

21:12

everyone else thinks like them, right? So

21:14

that one is less known, even like

21:17

with my background, there's not as much

21:19

research on that. So it took me

21:21

a while to realize how important that

21:23

has been to my success in a

21:26

way. I'm what you'd call a projector

21:28

with conceptual synthesis where it's almost like

21:30

being surrounded by white boards and being

21:33

able to put different abstract concepts

21:35

in space and then combine those

21:37

concepts, have them all in space around

21:39

me, and then, you know, Organize.

21:41

Organize those. And even when I was

21:44

writing my book, I found that was this huge

21:46

asset. I probably was driving my publisher nuts because

21:48

I reorganized things a bunch of times. But in

21:50

my mind, like I could put these concepts in

21:52

space, combine ideas, and just move them about. Yeah.

21:54

Combine them. So when you were at University of

21:56

Chicago doing the BA and the master's, what was

21:58

your favorite part of that? focus at

22:00

that point academically. Was it cognitive

22:02

science already? Yeah. So I was

22:05

in this joint BA, MA, and my

22:07

bachelor's I had officially met the requirements

22:09

for psychology and sociology but also did

22:11

a lot of philosophy and then my

22:14

master's was in the cognitive science and

22:16

I had to finish both at the

22:18

same time. So I finished both those

22:20

degrees in three years. Okay and then you

22:22

go off to London School of Economics or

22:24

Oxford? Oxford, yeah. So I was named a

22:26

Rhodes Scholar and I was in Oxford and

22:29

then this overlapped to it. So my mom had been

22:31

diagnosed when I was a teenager and

22:33

she actually ended up living longer than

22:35

what was predicted. So I was back and

22:37

forth a lot my first year at Oxford

22:40

but I was doing my PhD which

22:42

there they called a DPhil and then

22:44

in between my doctorate I did another

22:46

degree at London School of Economics. Are those

22:48

in close proximity to each other or were

22:50

you traveling a great distance? I was living

22:52

in Oxford. I mean would take the train to

22:54

do my classes. The British universities are pretty

22:57

different. It was interesting to acclimate to

22:59

how things were there. I'm going to

23:01

just point out tenderly it's

23:04

not like you had mastered the high school dynamic

23:06

and then now you go to another

23:09

country where there's yet an entire like

23:11

all the little subtleties. For sure and

23:13

then going through grief there's a

23:15

very different cultural way of

23:17

dealing with grief, barriers to upper lip.

23:19

My path like most people wasn't linear.

23:21

There was a lot of interruptions and

23:23

it was during that time that I

23:25

spent a lot of energy doing more

23:28

creative work. I was supposed to be

23:30

working on my my PhD

23:32

but I did end up spending a

23:34

lot of time in my bathtub writing

23:36

fiction and music and I think that

23:38

made me just a much more self-aware

23:40

person doing meditate. You know stuff that's

23:42

more self-exploratory. Yeah and then also

23:45

just coming to terms with things my

23:47

mom told me and I suspected it

23:49

but I didn't really know it was

23:51

neurodiversion Until she was dying and after I was a road

23:53

scholar. Then she tells me like hey, by the way, you're

23:55

kind of different. Oh My God, do you think that would

23:57

have been useful to hear earlier? He.

24:00

Put one on things where you know your different But

24:02

most my life I was told it was just because

24:04

I was just stay right but I knew that wasn't

24:06

the first where they simply yeah that's just my story.

24:09

I think it would have been helpful as was kind

24:11

of like a socks. Or my friend Ricky who's

24:13

been on here to talk about some divulging anything

24:15

he wouldn't want me to see, get a diagnosis,

24:17

and then also and he literally had to flick

24:19

through every page of his past. And

24:22

like oh, that time on the porch from

24:24

the kids Tommy Adidas? That was that. Oh,

24:26

the fact that I only wear basketball shorts

24:28

and I have a reason for, but it's

24:30

not. That's like. You

24:32

know, really, almost his entire

24:34

life. Has completely get refiled.

24:36

You know? Like the same data points

24:39

but you start to see everything through a

24:41

different leisure. A So while I know so

24:43

many people in leadership positions really high level

24:45

positions that are nerd version in part of

24:48

why we're at wrote the book seal was

24:50

we need to do better at. Becoming.

24:52

Aware of our unconscious biases because

24:54

is already a lot of people

24:57

leadership positions that are reluctant to

24:59

disclose and the more that there's

25:01

an appreciation for cognitive, diverse and

25:03

realizing or collector future depends on

25:05

any problem solvers. Yeah, so you say

25:07

in the blog one in five people

25:09

are neuro divergent, Some right away your

25:11

twenty percent of the population. It's definitely

25:14

significant enough. This is an anomaly. Misses

25:16

a significant portion of the population? Absolutely.

25:18

I don't know. You can tell me

25:20

this is true. This is your a

25:22

doctor in this. Someone told me that

25:24

they have bee colonies in there are

25:27

certain me that are in charge of

25:29

going out and exploring and looking for

25:31

new areas of they might have pollen

25:33

say no. Work with the normal group.

25:35

Their. Divergent and. If

25:38

you gives them a D H

25:40

D medication, those divergent bees stop

25:42

going out and exploring for it.

25:44

And it's sisters. Great little example

25:46

of no, no, this isn't an

25:48

accident that we've of all this

25:50

way we have this diversity. It's

25:52

why we've succeeded as a species

25:54

for three hundred thousand years and

25:56

as a hominid for six million.

25:58

This is post. The units baked in

26:00

and we gotta be careful what we're trying to.

26:03

Change. Everyone into a. As really interesting

26:05

and the A do bring up because

26:08

in chapter one about I called the

26:10

Diversion these some researchers they blew. There's

26:12

eighty percent that salo. this sort of

26:15

pre programmed waggle dance floor. Waggle dance

26:17

is a way in which the bees

26:19

communicate with each other to find already

26:22

known sources of pollen. But then at

26:24

the what you're referring to his, there's

26:26

twenty percent that I guess if they're

26:28

not medicated, fly often these seemingly random

26:31

directions. And are following

26:33

their. Scripted instructions, Or

26:35

were they supposed to be doing

26:38

by? It's what it turns out

26:40

is that twenty percent is actually

26:42

responsible for discovering new sources of

26:45

pollen, and that benefits the whole

26:47

highs in. The community And

26:49

that's. Really? Important to think about

26:51

how we think about heard of urgency

26:54

today are some the by sees it

26:56

and up on firstly coming into play.

26:58

A I think a lot of people

27:00

are as value waiting people from some

27:02

theoretical perfect neuro typical stanford of how

27:05

things should be and not looking at

27:07

it from like x mean the perspective

27:09

or how we can compliment each other.

27:11

We don't all have to be the

27:13

same. The also let's just add that

27:16

the eighty percent that's non neural divergent

27:18

during their own columns as well. like

27:20

doesn't stop say or that eighty percent

27:22

because a whole range of other things

27:24

about if you really were to shop

27:26

at all up there's not really any

27:28

type of person that's gonna even be

27:30

a majority of humans on planet earth.

27:32

But one of the towns as I

27:34

really see as a huge problem in

27:37

our brains are wired to do these

27:39

mental short cut star lot of pisces

27:41

that come into play. One is the

27:43

availability bias where their brains whatever so

27:46

most psychologically available We tend to take

27:48

more seriously and that sectors in a

27:50

lot with our. Assumptions about murderers and

27:53

people. We know what. A well intentioned

27:55

people don't make assumptions, especially by

27:57

like autistic people based on very

27:59

unrepresented. Examples. Of they saw the

28:01

movies. you know, There's. Some rain Man the they.

28:04

Exaggerate Man, you know Big Bang

28:06

Theory skill and it's mostly like

28:08

white caucasian boys or men. so

28:10

the more we can showcase. The.

28:12

Diversity in the nuance and the

28:14

richness of how even autism manifests

28:16

themselves and the overlap with other

28:19

nerd version Dmz like we talked

28:21

about, that's I think helpful to

28:23

combat some of these stereotypes and

28:25

there's one hundred of are some

28:27

people. Me myself I'm consider myself

28:29

an extrovert, easier nerd version and

28:31

they start making ulcers. Assumptions about what

28:33

you can and can't do? yeah, you

28:35

right in here. Once I like is

28:37

that if you were to bring someone

28:39

over and you told us that they

28:41

were neuro divergent, we would have no

28:43

basis to extrapolate that fact in any

28:45

preconceptions about the person's intellectual capabilities, general

28:47

knowledge, or capacity to successfully perform any

28:49

task Rural I do think there's these

28:51

stereotypes and by the way, some of

28:54

em are in quote positive It's like

28:56

if someone's artistic because the first one

28:58

we saw the can toothpicks when they

29:00

landed on the ground and you're like,

29:02

okay, so. What I was a special

29:04

thing you can is a mess coupled

29:06

with this thing I want you to

29:08

tell us about. Would says that we've

29:10

been stuck in a paradigm which is

29:13

a deficit base perspective or a medical

29:15

deficit model. So explain that to us.

29:17

And how does that limit our ability

29:19

to see a full spectrum human in

29:21

many different variety of full spectrum. That

29:24

spencer the Legacy framework, there

29:26

isn't so much of a

29:28

focus on the deficit medical

29:30

perspective that and the ends

29:32

of Overshadow ring or understanding

29:34

the richness. Of talent in

29:37

the strength that are there which

29:39

there's many and. It is also

29:41

a lot of talent that given

29:43

the served narrow typical standard says

29:45

evaluation are easy to mess, nonlinear

29:47

thinking, lateral thinking, systems thinking patterns

29:49

to taxes lot of really important

29:52

skills that I would argue or

29:54

and in become even more important

29:56

said that seed sure. That we haven't

29:58

front of us with the i becoming so. Probably.

30:00

But going back to the Be

30:02

example a look at the medical

30:04

data said paradigm versus the strength

30:06

is paradigm the purely deficit model

30:08

would see for bees that are

30:11

performing well. Give them their gold

30:13

stars right for sitting in doing

30:15

the waggle dance and then that

30:17

sisters be who's doing the was

30:19

there for into is not following

30:21

the waggle dance be seen as

30:23

the outcasts would be marginalized and.

30:26

Maybe even potentially disruptive to

30:28

the other for. For sure.

30:30

And yet you know some resources that

30:32

study this kind of thing and that

30:34

diversion be is actually really essential

30:36

to the success of the entire high

30:39

a community. And so that doesn't mean

30:41

that there aren't people that will

30:43

need support and accommodations and that and

30:46

not dismissing any that. but I think

30:48

it's important to recognize that there's

30:50

lots of different skill sets where we

30:52

complement each other and the team say

30:55

things that are the most successful

30:57

are gonna be the ones that have

30:59

cognitive. Diversity and. I talk a lot

31:01

about some the perils of group thinks there's

31:03

been some really interesting study out there. State.

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34:28

Broad scope of the neuro diversity

34:30

edge bug is really imploring business

34:32

owners and people who hire to

34:34

get past this in start seen

34:36

nerd of urgent folks as an

34:38

asset and then I want to

34:40

get into some of the data

34:43

that would support that. But if

34:45

we could go through if you're

34:47

willing some of the strength based

34:49

framework for people, let's start with

34:51

Autism. What would be a strength

34:53

based. Framework. For that, it's

34:56

important. Say again to recognize that every

34:58

autistic person is very unique. My friend

35:00

rec He says if you meet someone

35:02

with autism you've met one person with

35:04

thoughts am nervous, the phrase and fleas.

35:06

And the community a lot but

35:08

artistic people in. Terms of the research,

35:11

there's a lot of uncommon. Skills and

35:13

term said focus on details.

35:15

Hyper Focus which else overlaps with

35:17

Mana believes years now so and

35:19

Hyper Focus. Pattern. Recognition systems I'm

35:21

seen a visual spatial skills. There's been

35:24

some interesting studies personally I think there

35:26

should be in are diverse and person

35:28

every board of directors because I've been

35:31

on a boards my south and the

35:33

level of rape think that sometimes happens

35:35

on a very low of fact and

35:38

adding really is like disaster. An autistic

35:40

people in particular has all sorts research

35:42

about how they're just less susceptible to

35:45

some of these cognitive biases. Would they

35:47

tracked higher on the disagree ability char

35:49

oil to the psychological. Profile.

35:52

Like challenges? Yeah, I just

35:54

I would imagine here's my just

35:56

having read no Studies about it

35:58

out. Imagine if your. Experience

36:00

through all of school.

36:03

Was. Met with so much discomfort one on

36:05

one socially that the notion of been

36:07

seen as anti social like you've already

36:09

dealt with of that's not some for

36:11

fear you have. It's like even kind

36:13

of living in some of that discomfort.

36:15

So to do it now and this

36:17

boardroom is like just another a day

36:19

and lives. By the way I say

36:21

disagree ability as a positive I find

36:23

myself to be disagreeable. So many lies

36:25

the development I've. Been on board is

36:28

a huge problem when there's nobody

36:30

that brings up the obvious problems

36:32

that's not good for the organization,

36:34

that's not good for the company.

36:36

I think it's supplies a lot

36:38

of nerve diversion people, but there's

36:40

research specifically on autistic people whether

36:43

gonna be less concerned about their

36:45

social status and more willing to

36:47

just. Be super directed, an honest and say

36:49

hey, this is a problem right? Yeah, Six

36:51

going to blow up when it hits twenty

36:53

the we're. Not so focused on

36:55

climbing a ladder or something that

36:57

of Herrick like that right in

37:00

doing slob independent analysis. And there's

37:02

been a number of interesting studies

37:04

or is one where autistic people

37:06

were not influenced by these marketing

37:09

gimmicks and framing techniques that most

37:11

nerds or buckle people were or

37:13

save or less influenced. There was

37:15

another study with children. Were

37:18

the researchers purposely misled the

37:20

participants in what was the

37:22

correct answer which should have

37:24

been. Extremely obvious what the correct answer

37:26

was. You know does this line match as

37:28

other line in there was no him. Be

37:30

greedy and from select what the crack the

37:32

answer was. but most of the neurotypical kids

37:35

went along because they were misled. It was

37:37

that. Are you imagine a dancer what a result of

37:39

has he ever waggle the as a like and the.

37:41

Odds as the kids were far far,

37:43

far less likely to go along with

37:46

an incorrect. And obviously incorrect answer. A

37:48

high as the base framework for dyslexic

37:50

Of course I selfishly want to know

37:52

this deserved a financial letting them are

37:55

and the Job employs a professor, has

37:57

a lot of people in leadership positions.

38:00

They're dyslexic. I see read a

38:02

study recently. Which is super. And

38:04

you're saying that there's a large

38:06

percentage of millionaires and was forty

38:08

percent that are. Just like this or

38:10

have dyslexic traits. But some of the

38:12

traits. That. Are discuss a lot

38:14

as big picture sinking connecting dots among seemingly

38:16

unrelated area zags systems thinking as as was

38:18

interesting for me to is you know in

38:20

or of tercel skills I feel it I

38:23

have the skills but yet I'm not is

38:25

so this is where I think we're and

38:27

be in cincy to have brain science and

38:29

or a size ten. Fifteen years and now

38:31

will understand why these nuances allowed on earth

38:34

a present in a lot of ways as

38:36

a dyslexic answers my strength and challenges but

38:38

then that's not. Yeah yeah oh yeah

38:40

right. If we put all these

38:43

different types of people and and

38:45

fmr I would we be able

38:47

to observe this. Some things

38:49

yeah, summarize, that's definitely helps in

38:52

terms of progressing the yields and

38:54

understanding more because if you go

38:56

back, see like twenty. Thirty years.

38:58

Even our people thought things were a lot

39:01

more sex than they are with the brain.

39:03

Cherry soda read: A book called Modularity of

39:05

Mind to the Thinking has definitely shifted a

39:07

lot. I think we have a long way

39:10

to go, but we. Do know

39:12

if you decide to learn a musical

39:14

instrument even as an older person? Overtime

39:16

that does change your brain. You see

39:19

certain areas of the brain being activated.

39:21

Is highly malleable. Yes, we have a

39:23

much better understanding of neural plasticity them

39:26

we didn't to ten years ago for

39:28

sir. Okay, so obviously blur what seems

39:30

obvious to me. the. Initial

39:33

barrier of finding employment

39:35

a funeral divergent as

39:37

that it's of highly

39:39

social. Entrance. To

39:41

any job, it's a job interview. That's

39:44

a hurdles. Yet part of the

39:46

problem suis that people. Have gotten

39:48

accustomed to doing. Adds a

39:50

certain way and job interviews a

39:53

certain way and that in many

39:55

cases is not consistent with the

39:57

skills they're actually necessary. As out of water

39:59

that. And so that's I think

40:01

a big problem. And then also if you're

40:03

talking about autistic people in particular, there's all

40:05

these talents and I think it applies to

40:07

a lot of neurodivergent people. There's conceptual

40:10

synthesis even. You know, there's all these

40:12

talents that aren't going to be

40:14

communicated in a verbal interview. And employers

40:17

should want to find alternative ways of

40:19

evaluating and assessing talent to attract unique

40:21

talent that could really be this huge

40:23

competitive edge. So here's one little bit

40:25

of, I guess you could call this pushback

40:27

or some cynicism on my part. But

40:30

obviously many industries

40:32

over-index in

40:35

neurodivergent employees. I

40:37

guess you would know whether there's

40:39

data or not. So what do

40:41

you mean by over-index? So I

40:43

would imagine computer programming over-indexes. I

40:45

would imagine engineers over-index. I think

40:47

there's many different compartments of our

40:49

economy that actually over-index. So it's like,

40:52

what about their hiring process just allowed

40:54

for this all to happen? And do

40:56

we need to push or do people

40:58

just find their way knowing that these

41:00

are some industries that not only take

41:02

on but are over-represented? Should we be

41:04

trying to force everyone into every bracket

41:06

of the sphere or is it fine

41:08

that people are going to excel in

41:10

different compartments? You bring up a good

41:12

point because I think one of the

41:15

criticisms in the community is the neurodiversity

41:17

community is a very broad community. There's

41:19

lots of talented people in the

41:21

arts and design and are

41:23

not, you know, in STEM. There is, I think,

41:26

a lack of opportunity

41:28

pathways, especially outside of

41:30

these tech careers. You know, that's kind

41:32

of, again, another stereotype, right? Yeah. That

41:34

people that are neurodivergent are going

41:37

to be in cybersecurity. Employers have no

41:39

problem crossing that barrier when they need

41:41

the people. We see evidence of that.

41:43

All these companies have gotten past that.

41:45

What's obvious is if there is a

41:47

commercial incentive, they will do it. And

41:49

maybe it's that the other one's not

41:51

obvious and that is the argument you're

41:53

making, but I just want to call

41:55

attention to that. That when there's an

41:57

incentive there, employers have responded. Right. I

42:00

have a chapter I explicitly bring up the

42:02

economics, trying to connect with employers. We're on

42:05

a structural labor shortage, to be right, and

42:07

there should be a strong incentive to

42:09

do things differently. I would say that sometimes

42:11

employers think they know what they need, but

42:13

they don't always know what they really need.

42:16

So where we're headed in the future of

42:18

work and the economic landscape we have in

42:20

front of us, I think there's been so

42:22

much focus on, okay, how

42:24

do I integrate technology and AI

42:26

systems? There hasn't been enough focus

42:28

on what is the human resource

42:31

strategy that we should be employing?

42:33

And I think across the board, even outside

42:35

of some of these areas that have been

42:38

more identified by employers as being

42:40

consistent with what they think neurodivergent

42:42

people are a good fit with.

42:45

Broader skill sets in intuitive

42:47

leaps of insight in lateral thinking

42:50

and nonlinear thinking, systems thinking, people

42:52

that are comfortable thinking outside the

42:54

boxes, people that are used to

42:56

their whole lives, they've been finding

42:59

creative work arounds. That's really valuable.

43:01

Learning to survive. Yeah, I think it's really valuable,

43:03

right? Like if you have constantly problem-solving in

43:05

unique ways, especially in the economic context we

43:08

have in front of us, I think there's

43:10

this unique place for neurodivergent people

43:12

to work with neurotypical people and

43:14

all the machine intelligence that's going to inevitably,

43:17

whether we like it or not, is going

43:19

to come into play. Is

43:21

there data on the overall

43:23

unemployment rate of neurodivergent people?

43:26

Yes, and it's very

43:28

depressing. So if you

43:30

combine all the categories of neurodivergent

43:33

typologies, it's somewhere between 30 and 40 percent

43:36

unemployment and then we're looking at maybe 15,

43:39

20 percent of the world population being

43:41

neurodivergent. And then the US

43:44

alone is well under 4

43:46

percent unemployment overall. So there's

43:48

this huge, huge disproportionality. Yeah,

43:50

it's like a 5x difference. A

43:53

huge disproportionality with talented people

43:55

that have a lot to contribute

43:57

and lack of meaningful opportunities.

44:00

to be able to solve the actualize. Is

44:02

there a proposed approach for HR

44:05

that is going to help

44:07

them identify this and

44:10

start being more open-minded?

44:12

Is there like a recommended protocol?

44:14

It's not really a standard. The good

44:16

news is that we're finally at a

44:18

point where neurodiversity is starting to become

44:21

more of a mainstream conversation, at least,

44:23

and there are a lot of companies

44:25

that are making progress. The approach that

44:27

I recommend is a very

44:30

values-driven approach and

44:32

doing the deeper work at the level

44:34

of organizational culture. You know, I've worked

44:36

with a number of companies that I

44:38

think were well-intentioned and wanted to make

44:41

progress in becoming murder and neurodiversity-friendly,

44:43

but there is a big difference

44:45

if you do a surface level.

44:47

Well, you said there's two models

44:49

basically out there. There is the

44:51

token neurodivergent employee to appear to

44:53

be neuroinclusive. That's a bad option.

44:55

Another bad option is you know

44:57

it's coming. Eventually, you'll have to.

45:00

These are like the two options on the table.

45:02

Right, and what you can

45:04

do to actually make your

45:06

organization genuinely valuing cognitive

45:08

differences. And I've seen a lot

45:10

of organizations that start out with this

45:13

sort of pick-the-box approach, which has

45:15

been really ineffective. We need two

45:17

dyslexics, three autistics, and a hyperlexic

45:19

by Friday. Right, right.

45:23

I think the organizations that have committed

45:26

to doing this deeper work at

45:28

the level of the DNA of their organization

45:30

or culture, it doesn't just open

45:32

the doors to attract unique talent,

45:34

including neurodivergent talent, but I think

45:37

it helps all their employees be more

45:39

productive because there's a different level of

45:41

psychological safety. You could challenge the status

45:43

quo. That's encouraged. That's accepted. There's more

45:46

of a growth mindset. I try to

45:48

focus there because I think that's where

45:50

there's that real competitive edge and where

45:53

companies and organizations are going to attract

45:55

the best talent. Also, it just crossed

45:57

my mind, really, maybe starting with the gatekeeper.

45:59

There should be many more neurodivergent HR

46:02

people actually doing the employee, because they're

46:04

not going to have the same

46:07

reaction. And also, I don't

46:09

think companies realize that the vast majority

46:11

already have 15, 20%. Even

46:14

sometimes they're executive leadership, they're neurodivergent, they're

46:16

just not disclosing. And I've worked with

46:18

companies where there's behind the scenes these

46:21

secret support groups going on where

46:23

people are meeting and supporting each

46:25

other, but they're, you know. They're

46:27

closeted. Exactly. That's a huge problem,

46:29

because look at the younger generations,

46:31

I think it's important that these

46:34

leaders are visible, but that it has

46:36

to be psychologically safe to do so

46:38

they can't be penalized. And I've seen

46:40

that happen, unfortunately. And so that's where

46:42

I try to focus on the organizational

46:44

culture. One of the other things I

46:46

found that has been effective that has

46:49

surprised me is I've done a lot

46:51

of work in the community college system.

46:53

And when I was president of my

46:55

state association, the Illinois Community College Trustees

46:57

Association, I spearheaded a project where we

46:59

were the first state level of educational

47:01

association that passed a neurodiversity inclusion value

47:03

statement. And then that led to some

47:06

legislation in the state house in Illinois. Some

47:08

people were like, oh, you know, it's just

47:10

a value statement, does that really change anything?

47:12

But what's been really interesting is then to

47:14

see how that has been like an

47:16

interesting starting point more than

47:19

some of these colleges, like Oakton College is

47:21

an example, there's many others, where there's that

47:23

buy-in, so if the board of trustees adopt

47:25

that statement and then the president is behind

47:27

it in the cabinet, then that's opened the

47:29

door for these broader conversations. They're

47:32

like, oh, well, how can we do

47:34

things differently? Maybe we could do things

47:36

better. Do we have a sensory friendly

47:38

space on campus? Maybe we could do

47:40

more trainings across the board in the

47:42

college with faculty. Maybe we could be

47:44

more flexible. And I've kind of then

47:46

see the simple value statement actually be

47:48

this interesting starting point that

47:50

just opens conversations for actual

47:52

real change in day-to-day policies

47:54

and things that have actually then been

47:57

really beneficial and helpful to students. And

47:59

then also, so any of the people that

48:01

work there in the college, because our statement

48:03

extended beyond students. We included faculty,

48:06

trustees, administrators. And

48:08

what has been the result for businesses

48:10

who have made an actual good faith

48:13

effort and enacted real change? I have

48:15

some case studies in my book, and

48:17

the ones I think that were committed

48:20

to this deeper approach, there's been a

48:22

huge upside. It's benefited everyone. The organizations

48:24

where there was that level of psychological

48:27

safety, innovation, goes to the roof. And

48:29

this isn't neurodiversity specific, but like even

48:31

Google, it's relevant though. They said all

48:34

their teams and they discovered that the

48:36

teams that performed the best were

48:38

not the ones that had the most resources or what

48:40

they would consider the smartest people necessary. They

48:43

were the teams that had the highest level

48:45

of psychological safety. Wow, that's crazy.

48:47

It makes sense though, like if you're neurodivergent,

48:49

especially in your natural gift or way

48:51

of thinking is coming from a different

48:54

solution pathway or thinking about things differently

48:56

and you're constantly being penalized

48:59

for that rather than being in a

49:01

culture where even if your idea is

49:03

not embraced, but there's still encouragement, it's

49:05

like, oh, well, that's really interesting. You

49:08

know, tell me more. That kind of

49:10

culture that benefits everyone. It's a place

49:12

everybody would feel excited to show

49:14

up every day and work. Versus I have

49:16

some case studies in my book. There was one

49:18

in particular where there was a really

49:21

high performing employee in a leadership

49:23

position. And once she disclosed that

49:25

she was diagnosed autistic, people started

49:27

treating her differently. So like trying

49:30

to put in such as policies.

49:32

In my book, I call the

49:34

three C's where there's codification and

49:36

conduct drives culture. So you could

49:38

change your policies, but if the

49:40

day-to-day behaviors of how people behave

49:43

is inconsistent with the values that

49:45

you espouse and a value statement,

49:47

that's going to negatively affect your

49:49

culture. And so the alignment between

49:51

those two, I think creates

49:54

the conditions where everybody can

49:56

be more innovative and thrive.

49:58

That's going to also... be

50:00

a type of environment where you're

50:02

gonna attract neurodivergent talent that could

50:04

really help your company. I feel

50:06

like the biggest stereotype that would

50:08

prevent a lot of progress in

50:10

this space is on

50:13

one hand, the five most valuable companies

50:15

in the world are again, the ones

50:17

that are over indexing in neurodivergence. One

50:19

hand, you'd have to recognize, well, whatever

50:21

your thoughts are, literally the five most

50:23

valuable companies in the world are, in

50:25

most cases, led by someone neurodivergent. By

50:27

Elon Musk's own omission, many of these

50:29

people would acknowledge this. By the way,

50:31

whatever anyone's thoughts are, the fact that

50:33

he went on Sarianth Live and said,

50:35

I'm the first autistic person to host

50:38

Sarianth Live, I was like, fuck yeah,

50:40

good for him. So on one hand,

50:42

you have all this fucking proof that the most

50:44

valuable companies are this, yet I

50:46

think then the leap is the stereotype of like,

50:48

well, yeah, that works in tech, but that's not

50:50

gonna work in my ad agency or my hospitality

50:53

business. The skills that we think

50:55

are stereotypical match up to tech,

50:57

but there's so many skills that

50:59

we don't know about that aren't

51:01

stereotypical, that are widespread. Right, it's

51:03

unheard of, yeah. You

51:05

bring up a really interesting point. I think it was

51:08

Adam Grant in a Stanford lecture back around

51:10

2006 where he brought up, for

51:13

early stage startups, many are founded

51:15

by, as you brought up, neurodivergent

51:18

people. But then when you get

51:20

into these larger corporations, there's this

51:22

tendency to, you know, let's hire

51:24

people that think like me. We

51:26

almost shift from building to protecting,

51:29

and when you shift to protecting,

51:31

now everything's gotta be done as

51:33

it was. It almost codifies groupthink.

51:36

Absolutely, and especially in the economic climate

51:38

we're in front of us, that's disastrous.

51:40

The big companies almost have the

51:43

most to benefit from at this

51:45

point, to become more flexible, to

51:47

hire for what I call neurodiversification

51:50

rather than a culture, actually, I

51:52

think a lot of teams get

51:54

stuck when everybody's similar in terms

51:57

of their cognitive, analytical, and perceptual

51:59

tendencies. because there's just gonna be a lot

52:01

of blind spots and you won't know what you don't

52:03

know. And I think the bigger companies, there's

52:05

much more of a risk of that and there's

52:07

more of a learning curve to figure out how

52:09

to do this well and to integrate and

52:12

include neurodiversity rather it being like this special

52:14

track, right? But some companies have these neurodiversity

52:16

at work programs where it's really separate from

52:19

their culture. So not even there to challenge

52:21

or bring up the different idea that they're

52:23

doing the same thing. Yeah, I think where

52:25

the most value is gonna be is if you

52:28

can truly integrate cognitive diversity and

52:30

expand the menu of ideas that are

52:32

being discussed at the top levels of

52:34

product conversations, of strategy conversations, that's where

52:36

companies are gonna be the most competitive

52:38

and people that are neurodivergent could be

52:40

their authentic selves and they don't have

52:42

to mask and we can get into

52:44

what that means because that's also another

52:46

problem. You could get hired as a

52:48

neurodivergent person and if you're spending 50% of your time

52:51

just trying to fit in rather than solving real

52:53

problems, you're not gonna get the most out of

52:56

that person. But I do think the

52:58

big companies have maybe the most to

53:00

benefit if they could make this shift.

53:02

That totally makes sense. Now, is it

53:04

fair to say there are some occupations

53:07

that aren't gonna lend themselves to this?

53:09

Like hospitality, something that is just, whoever

53:11

the most social butterfly in the world

53:13

was is gonna be drawn to this

53:15

occupation and should it be everywhere and

53:17

is that realistic? First, I bring up

53:20

when we talk about neurodiversity, is a

53:22

really broad umbrella, right? So you have

53:24

so many different strengths and weaknesses and

53:26

I tend to like to think of it as, we're all

53:28

just people, we all have strengths and weaknesses. But

53:30

I'd also bring up, it's a myth. I

53:32

mean, there's a lot of autistic people that are

53:35

super extroverted. So again, it goes back to these

53:37

stereotypes. I think some people will surprise you, right?

53:39

Or it could be a special interest of

53:41

a person with autism where they put lots of

53:43

effort. So I think it's kind of case by

53:46

case. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, now I regret that

53:48

question. I'm kind of embarrassed I honestly. Well,

53:50

no, no, it's a fair question. No,

53:53

no, it's a fair question. I would hope

53:55

that at some point we can live in

53:57

a world where it's acceptable to have different

53:59

styles. of leadership, Winston Churchill supposedly had

54:01

strong autistic traits, but he stepped up

54:04

to the plate and maybe he wasn't

54:06

the best person at small talk. I

54:08

don't know. But just having that perspective

54:10

of maybe there should be room for

54:12

different styles of leadership and even autistic

54:14

people could make great leaders. I

54:16

would even say that we pay

54:18

an enormous price for our over

54:21

weighting of charisma. We have lots of

54:24

leaders throughout time who that's about all

54:26

they have. Right. They're not necessarily solving

54:28

problems that need to be solved. I'm

54:30

not suggesting John Kerry was on any kind of

54:32

spectrum, but I do know that people wanted him

54:34

to be more baboullient. And I was like, this

54:37

guy is so fucking qualified. What are we talking

54:39

about? There's been several of those. What happened to

54:41

Hillary? Like, what are you guys talking about? You

54:43

don't want to have a beer with her. You're

54:45

not going to have a fucking beer with her.

54:48

She's going to be running the country. Yeah. I

54:50

mean, it's why for the most part, there's

54:52

one type of person in charge of most

54:55

things, a charismatic man

54:58

normally. That

55:00

is because we have ideas about what it

55:02

means to lead and we all are

55:05

a part of it. We all follow suit. We all

55:07

now do look up to that type of, oh, they're

55:09

going to be a strong leader. We just pray

55:11

they also can do the job. Well, we don't

55:13

seem to care that much right now. Look

55:16

where we are. I

55:18

was in Davos in January and

55:20

the theme was all of the

55:23

increasingly complex problems we have to

55:25

solve and we need people that

55:27

can help solve problems. Christmas is

55:29

important too, but hey, we got a lot of problems

55:31

to solve. Yeah. Well, this has

55:33

been incredible. I hope everyone checks

55:35

out the Neurodiversity Edge, the essential

55:38

guide to embracing autism, ADHD, dyslexia,

55:40

and other neurological differences for any

55:42

organization. Last question, I wonder if

55:44

you ever ponder. The unemployment data

55:47

says everything. It's tough. School's tough.

55:49

The marketplace is tough, but oddly

55:51

it is better than it's ever

55:53

been. Do you ever think

55:56

about surely 20% of

55:58

the population was also neurodiversity? in

56:00

1850, what was happening then? What do

56:02

you think was happening? So

56:05

one of the paradoxes is that

56:07

throughout history, and there's no way

56:09

to prove this, but a

56:11

lot of our trailblazers throughout history like

56:13

Benjamin Franklin, Albert Einstein, you know, there's

56:16

so many examples of people that have

56:18

changed the world that are thought to have

56:20

had neurodivergent profiles. But if you

56:22

look at it just more large

56:24

scale, I'm sure there's been progress.

56:26

One of the interesting things was

56:28

during the pandemic, we saw

56:31

some of the highest employment

56:33

rates ever for the disability

56:35

community more broadly. So not

56:37

just with neurodivergent people, but

56:39

because there was a lot more options

56:41

with remote work. I know a lot

56:43

of ADHDers that are super hyperactive and

56:45

the ability to work from home and

56:48

like, you know, jump around, you

56:51

know, their office and create an environment

56:53

that works for them and whatever they

56:55

need to do that actually has massively

56:57

increased their productivity. And if

56:59

they had to go to the office

57:01

every day, then they're spending so much

57:03

time just fitting in and not expressing

57:06

themselves. And it actually deteriorates their performance.

57:08

So different employers have different opinions on

57:10

that. But yeah, it's an interesting question

57:12

to think about. I mean, obviously, throughout

57:14

history has always been neurodivergent people. So

57:17

I think we're making progress. Some of us

57:19

tend to think of it as this modern thing,

57:22

but it's not. No, it's not. I think some

57:24

people are under that. Like, they'll go like, wait

57:26

a minute, why is everyone autistic now? Like, right?

57:28

This was nowhere 30 years ago. Now

57:30

everyone is. Is it on the increase? And you're like,

57:32

we're just diagnosing. Well, there's a lot of women

57:35

that wouldn't have been diagnosed, say 20 years

57:37

ago, where there's just a lot more

57:39

awareness. The schools didn't identify kids as

57:41

much. So I just think there's a

57:43

lot more awareness so that there is

57:45

more kids being identified, too. Yeah, I

57:47

think they were just called bad kids. Sure. Disruptive.

57:51

Bad kids. He's hyper. Get him out of here. Send

57:54

him down to that room or that.

57:56

Yeah. Well,

57:58

on behalf of the 20 percent. of

58:00

parents who have a child that's neurodivergent and

58:02

is probably scared about the future of their

58:04

kids. On their behalf, I thank you that

58:06

you've written this book and that you're trying

58:08

to make it a more inclusive place for

58:11

all these kids to grow up and partake

58:13

in. And for anyone who has a

58:15

business, read this book because it will help

58:17

you with your hiring and making it more

58:19

inclusive. But not just inclusive, your business will

58:21

be better. I think we forget that. Yeah,

58:23

I don't think you can ask business owners to

58:25

go into philanthropy. I think you have to convince

58:28

business owners that there's an enormous financial incentive for

58:30

them. Yeah, for sure. Yeah,

58:32

this is an asset. It's not a trade-off. Right.

58:34

All right, well, so great meeting you, Maureen. You know the

58:37

thing I have. So we have opposite things-ish. I'm

58:40

writing. I'm so verbal orally and I'm writing

58:42

and I get to a word that

58:45

I could say all day long. And I'm

58:47

like, I don't even have a guess at

58:49

what the first few letters are. There's nothing

58:51

there. When people go, oh, you see things

58:53

backwards? I'm like, no, that's not it. It's

58:55

just I can do something orally that when

58:57

I am trying to convert that into these

58:59

symbols, I can't even start sometimes. People go

59:01

like, look it up. I'm like, I don't

59:03

even know what letter to go to in

59:05

the fucking dictionary. Oh, I can't. Thank

59:07

God for voice dictate because it used to be I

59:09

would have to move to a different word. I'd

59:12

have to think of a synonym that I knew how to spell or start out a

59:14

spell. And now when I'm writing in the morning, I'm

59:17

on my phone every 25 seconds

59:19

voice dictating into Google so I can see how

59:21

it's written. Yeah, that's a good hack. What

59:24

a fucking incredible breakthrough for me,

59:26

technologically speaking. You listen a lot

59:28

of audiobooks, right? Yes. I

59:30

love audiobooks. I have an audiobook coming out, but it's

59:32

not coming out till April. Do you

59:34

yourself hate audiobooks? That's a good

59:36

question. Yeah. You

59:39

know, I do like them, but I get impatient

59:41

and I don't know if it's the sort of

59:43

ADHD element. Like I'm used to like,

59:45

okay, I want all this information. But

59:48

I can, especially if it's something as

59:50

written in a way that's more literary,

59:52

I can still enjoy it.

59:54

And maybe the narrators are really good performers.

59:56

Yeah, as long as they have the time, then

59:58

I really do enjoy it. I do

1:00:00

like audiobooks, but I think because of the

1:00:03

hyper-lexic family, like I want to be like,

1:00:05

ehhh. Yeah, you're in gridlock traffic.

1:00:07

So it has to be something that

1:00:09

I really find enjoyable rather than just information.

1:00:11

Right. I thought of you

1:00:13

the other day because I was writing the word

1:00:16

aisle. Oh, fuck that word. A-I-S,

1:00:18

Ellie. I was writing it

1:00:20

and even I thought, why is it spelled

1:00:22

like this? This is a crazy way

1:00:24

to spell that word. Might as well have an eight at the

1:00:27

front of it. Right. And

1:00:29

I don't have dyslexia, but I was

1:00:32

like, oh man, that's impossible for people

1:00:34

who do. All right,

1:00:36

well, good luck with everything and I hope

1:00:38

everyone checks out the Neurodiversity Edge. Be

1:00:41

well and I'm sure you'll write another book and hopefully we'll

1:00:43

talk to you then. Okay. Yeah, thank

1:00:45

you so much. Stay tuned

1:00:48

for more Armchair Expert if

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To the here: Miss Monica Correct all the

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facts I was wrong with. You

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And how can you? How can. You.

1:03:35

Know that didn't any one loves we'd have

1:03:37

so much so they've gotten messed tattooed on

1:03:39

their nap or some. He. Asked

1:03:42

probably right often. at least. In

1:03:44

fact, if you have the tattoo,

1:03:46

if you enjoy canoeing, smokin' Say.

1:03:48

So in the comments and I guess I want to see a picture

1:03:50

of it. Okay, I never heard

1:03:53

that. That same I think

1:03:55

every from Ryan Handsome. ah it's of

1:03:57

we saying you know what is wrong

1:03:59

place we're from a new be a

1:04:02

joint he tells he cough. alas I

1:04:04

now show Can you eat some of

1:04:06

your not sexy sorry guys you don't

1:04:08

know jogging sexy carving Now suffer me.

1:04:12

Personally, Job. Training. Have ever

1:04:14

seen a girl really hack him up? Along.

1:04:16

And for. Food. While last. Oh

1:04:19

man, a horse's guess it. Yeah

1:04:21

like death arguments. Oh. Thirst

1:04:25

throw of assisted our system relies

1:04:27

on snap at added. Saturday.

1:04:31

Was Lincoln's birthday party. It

1:04:33

was. Into my great

1:04:35

delight she picked Volleyball

1:04:37

tournament. For. The activity. And

1:04:40

it was looking so touch and go. Is

1:04:42

raining all I. Was wary when I woke up

1:04:44

as a oh boy this is. We all know

1:04:46

be you know I I kept saying

1:04:49

the sun is gonna come out on

1:04:51

watching the have. Today not

1:04:53

tomorrow. Unconventional. I write the some

1:04:55

of them out today. Yeah I was his

1:04:58

first settle Levin not unlike honey. no problem.

1:05:00

Be very beginning year old twelve or wants

1:05:02

the grass will dry up Them Eleven became

1:05:04

twelve. Twelve became one. Recap a

1:05:06

positive you day of we're going that

1:05:08

Radars I was riding that radar. Is

1:05:11

also coming up with a backup plan which I did. Well.

1:05:13

By the enemy was strays in

1:05:15

the theater room in them and

1:05:18

downstairs with all the kids pulling.

1:05:20

Out we have to tell that story. Which

1:05:22

one? Oh okay. great. was really funny

1:05:24

as we started watching it last and

1:05:26

I know ensues I am whatever reason

1:05:29

now was too much the first time.

1:05:31

Loved it seems little I don't know

1:05:33

and it was. Oh that's into

1:05:36

same. Here loses, we're all together as

1:05:38

a family. While the first time in the

1:05:40

married aider I don't know, just maybe she

1:05:42

was cut scenes how sexual it was this

1:05:44

time. The other just raises a will Sarah

1:05:47

movie. It's hard are movie. Yeah

1:05:49

about dogs. So Kristen thought it was a

1:05:51

movie about dogs like the kids were The

1:05:53

Answer: Sea Turtle Lincoln. To the movie here. right?

1:05:56

As you opt out. At her party for

1:05:58

doing taken seven and. It in

1:06:00

a news fanatic either gonna live

1:06:03

streams and and movie. Room:

1:06:05

I'm var his penis eating.

1:06:08

Ha ha ha ha ha

1:06:10

I out about so hard

1:06:13

his femur eating and eating

1:06:15

in it has like a

1:06:17

warning. Yes. But also that

1:06:19

made me laugh so hard because it's like.

1:06:22

It. Doesn't matter Well I since his

1:06:24

or my child psychologist but I kind

1:06:26

of really. Doesn't. Matter what, you

1:06:28

sow them under a certain age because they

1:06:31

don't get it. Odd that that's

1:06:33

pretty much my opinion. Yeah, that's

1:06:35

what's interesting is a scene between

1:06:37

scene and at the movie theater

1:06:39

and then seen it again last night

1:06:41

at home. Of. The sea has

1:06:43

matured enough that some of the stuff was

1:06:45

registering with it was use I am. I

1:06:48

don't think I like. You're

1:06:50

right a lot of is is blowing over there

1:06:52

have like omelets also exact. Index means:

1:06:55

eating people's penises whole. Know

1:06:57

this specifically of using strays know

1:06:59

devices. Dick Off the Dogs Ah

1:07:01

remaining literal penis Ah man. and

1:07:03

also penis. Is this a body

1:07:05

part like a hand Is the

1:07:07

is not a sexual item. I

1:07:10

thought that's what she was interpret events as

1:07:12

penis eating and I thought that was so

1:07:14

cute. The movie starts with a montage

1:07:16

and will super happy dog voices in

1:07:18

his owners Will Forte who's a total

1:07:20

piece of shit right use of fuck

1:07:23

him, he's unemployed, he smokes weed all

1:07:25

day and and will pharaohs like arm

1:07:27

i forget. His owners

1:07:29

namely. Was this chat chance the

1:07:31

greatest I love Shit Threads favorite toys

1:07:33

his penis he plays was at all

1:07:36

day long as I like is this

1:07:38

your this dog watch will looking at

1:07:40

zero my guy playing with his penis

1:07:42

and he thinks it's a it's his

1:07:45

toy Oh and so at some point

1:07:47

they the dogs by that. The

1:07:50

gulf oil I see anywhere. okay I

1:07:52

might be misremembering the and mean but

1:07:54

it does him. As. Whatever. I just

1:07:56

heard those instincts. Just so he

1:07:59

was volleyball. Was. Great

1:08:01

now. I don't want to see

1:08:03

you got close to plane. But.

1:08:06

If you like you got closer. You

1:08:09

certainly sitting next. To

1:08:12

you get physically closer proximity to the

1:08:14

court. I did. Did.

1:08:16

It look any more fun. Missed time. Or

1:08:19

less fun. And there was

1:08:21

an incident. Oh. My God,

1:08:24

there was an incredible incident. Poor.

1:08:26

Sweet Town for

1:08:29

sweet Hannah. Some

1:08:31

I got oh harvard. Clobbered.

1:08:33

Well, what was happening in a

1:08:35

nutshell was we were down. Charlie.

1:08:38

An eye on the same same and we

1:08:40

were down like owns a eleven to three

1:08:42

Islamic More. Done. And. Then

1:08:44

Fucking Charlie started serving.

1:08:47

Just bullets one after another, right over

1:08:49

that the just skimming the top of

1:08:51

than that. He a some like six

1:08:54

or seven times. Where is this is that happened

1:08:56

in our backyard? Volleyball No one is served. Eight.

1:08:59

Consecutive points in a row. And.

1:09:01

So they were just gimme more more

1:09:03

frustrated And man who is a really

1:09:05

good volleyball player. Yeah. They're. Like

1:09:07

we're going to have to block it

1:09:10

right at the map. Someone we were

1:09:12

ever going to defeat this oh so

1:09:14

Charlie Hit it is hard as he

1:09:16

could. it's screaming over the net at

1:09:19

god knows how fast. Matt comes up

1:09:21

as fast as he can and immediately

1:09:23

blocks it with both hands which redirect

1:09:26

the ball at full speed directly down

1:09:28

on the Hanna's knows so was like

1:09:30

a ricochet. Full speed serve speed implore.

1:09:32

Hannah got blasted right in the fat.

1:09:35

further were no slides. C

1:09:37

when I was stopped by bus.

1:09:39

Was already had to bring back hard and blow out

1:09:41

there was you. Ask me important, less it

1:09:43

and it's a part of My answer

1:09:46

is the four of us were sitting

1:09:48

there and we are all four of

1:09:50

us at on so. Our. Not playing.

1:09:52

Oh. Well

1:09:55

that's where I'm gonna have gonna take that

1:09:57

Positive won his first heard. On a Saturday

1:09:59

at thirty. That I do not All.

1:10:01

As fine. At any rate, it was so

1:10:03

phone such a fun day and I hadn't

1:10:06

really this time I put in the word

1:10:08

beforehand. Now this is gonna go against what.

1:10:10

I had brought up earlier about We

1:10:12

Norton's post about the the pain and

1:10:15

them stretching them injuries in on us

1:10:17

so my work out that morning before

1:10:19

volleyball. Was a very bizarre work out.

1:10:21

I. Did like a hundred and forty jumping

1:10:23

jack. so. I did four rounds

1:10:26

of my. Stretching. My back

1:10:28

with my legs cross and that that's

1:10:30

explain or whatever. Very comprehensive. Very.

1:10:32

Lightweight Shoulder works. They get the

1:10:34

shoulders warmth. I saw you doing

1:10:37

this for volleyball specifically. Yeah, I

1:10:39

wanted to get. Because when I read

1:10:41

in that thing also was like. Stretching. Bought

1:10:43

now warm up does prevent.

1:10:46

Or there's a there's a yes. So I've really

1:10:48

tried to more my body up and all the

1:10:51

ways I was him using it Mostly try my

1:10:53

arms over my head nonstop. And

1:10:55

it was highly effective. I was

1:10:57

a little or yesterday, but not

1:10:59

anything like I was on my

1:11:01

birthday. Yeah, I was like disabled

1:11:03

for a couple. Yeah, He's this

1:11:05

fall down, i, middle or. Hundred.

1:11:07

Time on the grass. got whacked.

1:11:10

I know. I slid many, many

1:11:12

times. Noticing a lot of solve.

1:11:14

Ah, I'm also fond.

1:11:18

Us: Okay. I can't tell you

1:11:20

what's funny you. Did. You hear me

1:11:22

laughing so hard? I also I did.

1:11:24

I did see you in pain

1:11:26

I dead swim. You want my

1:11:28

help? You and Tiny keep it

1:11:30

quiet. For

1:11:33

like some men as I know I am and

1:11:35

I was a I have to look away. I. Was

1:11:37

I am. An. Incredibly

1:11:40

great time from the second and started

1:11:42

so it ended and I had a

1:11:44

couple of huge slides were a hyper

1:11:46

extended my knee that's why I'm hogging

1:11:49

of our but that is made me

1:11:51

laugh. Okay then. brain.

1:11:54

So. This

1:11:57

is a marine. Marine.

1:11:59

Talks about. The phonological

1:12:01

loop font a odd.

1:12:04

Phonological. Loop. Her. members

1:12:06

up as she pronounced it, but it's a

1:12:08

part of memory. According to.

1:12:11

Badly. As Model of Working

1:12:13

Memory Miles Human Memory Game in

1:12:15

an attempt to present a more

1:12:17

accurate model of primary memory, often

1:12:20

refer to a short term memory.

1:12:22

Working memory splits primary memory into

1:12:24

multiple components, rather than considering it

1:12:26

to be a single unified construct.

1:12:29

The working memory mile is

1:12:31

essential. Executive is that Top

1:12:34

Than is broken down into

1:12:36

saw not phonological loop, episodic

1:12:38

buffer and visual spatial scratch

1:12:40

pat than off of the

1:12:42

phone logs Saw logical loop

1:12:45

is the articulatory loop and

1:12:47

the acoustic store. Okay, now

1:12:49

I'm gonna read a bow.

1:12:51

The. Sinatra. Bullet

1:12:54

Component. Thought of

1:12:56

the loop. articulate for a loop

1:12:58

as a whole. deals the sound.

1:13:00

Or. Phonological.

1:13:03

Information? Am I saying it? Right? Phonological

1:13:05

of yoga could be phonological.

1:13:08

But. Maybe it's phonological. I. Don't

1:13:10

know. I think it's a sonogram.

1:13:13

Phonograph. Own

1:13:16

room. Photogenic but you

1:13:18

say phonetic? Not

1:13:20

phonetic. That's. What

1:13:23

makes me think fanatical? He.

1:13:26

Says said that. In phonetics? Yeah, not

1:13:28

phone please. He gets. Son.

1:13:30

A Logical. I do some because

1:13:32

of fanatics because at the same

1:13:34

were it a right? yeah. So network

1:13:37

the is that one of those things are were just

1:13:39

saying it so fast that it's become fanatics. Phonogram

1:13:41

prances of. Yeah. But.

1:13:44

Own a grim sewn. Phonogram

1:13:48

of a pornographic. On a

1:13:50

sauna lots of clearly. Phonological where we

1:13:52

sat on Raymond. Phonological.

1:13:55

Okay, What? Did she say

1:13:57

phonological? See now? Why don't you?

1:14:00

Article: Oh sorry. Phonological.

1:14:03

Be finalized here and adequate spell

1:14:05

of a new age. L A

1:14:08

C saying. Phonological. Intros

1:14:10

These robots they'll have. oh, you're not

1:14:12

simple. As if

1:14:14

I love blue and and translate. Whatever

1:14:18

numbness? A phonological we don't

1:14:20

know? spend my time. It

1:14:22

consists of two parts: a

1:14:24

short term phonological store with

1:14:26

auditory memory traces that are

1:14:28

subject to rapid decay and

1:14:30

and articulatory rehearsal components sometimes

1:14:32

called the articulatory loop. Second,

1:14:34

revive the memory traces. The.

1:14:36

Phonological who may play a key role

1:14:38

in the acquisition of vocabulary it's particularly

1:14:40

in the early childhood years, and also

1:14:43

may be vital for learning a second

1:14:45

language. The Sun Illogical

1:14:47

Store acts as an inner ear remembering

1:14:49

speech sounds in their temporal order while

1:14:51

see article a toy, process axes and

1:14:53

in our voice and repeats the series

1:14:56

of words or other speech elements on

1:14:58

a loop to prevent them from became.

1:15:01

It's so confusing. Okay,

1:15:03

what is a real life example of the phonological live.

1:15:06

An interpreter translates phonological information from one

1:15:08

language into another. A person repeats and

1:15:11

eight digit confirmation code so that they

1:15:13

can write it down for later Shudder

1:15:15

repeat a series of words spoken to

1:15:17

them during a Phonics lesson. It

1:15:21

just means auditory instead of visual,

1:15:23

right? Now, but it's part of

1:15:25

the way the memory is stored. right?

1:15:28

But I'm only thinking that. Were.

1:15:31

Use year in the information that

1:15:33

is processed in the area of

1:15:35

your brain. Auditorily,

1:15:37

Is different than it is visually. With.

1:15:40

Human visual cortex right? So.

1:15:44

Those. Things are in different places

1:15:46

in your brain we're hearing versus what

1:15:48

you're reading. This is unrelated but related

1:15:50

country the Thing Nose while listening to us as

1:15:52

him into bed. Yeah, In the brief history of

1:15:54

intelligence I phoned. Obvious but also

1:15:57

voice oh yeah that makes sense

1:15:59

So in. Motor Control Center

1:16:01

of our brains are give you

1:16:03

look at our motor control area.

1:16:06

Versus other mammals

1:16:08

ah. Ours.

1:16:10

Is really quite big. And.

1:16:13

Then it's quite enormous for

1:16:15

one specific skill with doesn't

1:16:18

take a lot of. Memory.

1:16:21

To move your legs, they only

1:16:24

kind of function. There's like, you

1:16:26

know there's a button primates because

1:16:28

we have these possible thumbs and

1:16:31

these really really precise fingers. Our.

1:16:34

Ability to move these ten

1:16:36

digits in such specific ways.

1:16:39

In Cook trillion. Different. Permutations

1:16:41

takes up the bulk of our motor

1:16:43

control center, and that's what's enormous for

1:16:45

us, because we have. These.

1:16:48

Hands that require so much information to

1:16:50

move them precisely the way we want

1:16:52

to. Where is your feet? There's almost

1:16:54

nothing. Dedicate. Your feet or

1:16:56

l A because there's nothing the really

1:16:59

moved down there. There's no precision. does

1:17:01

a lot for them to perform the

1:17:03

function. They're. Designed to takes a

1:17:05

very tiny as party your brain but

1:17:07

these hands are taking up a tom.

1:17:10

Wow. Which makes a lot of sense

1:17:12

but I thought I just say. but when

1:17:15

I saw that I did a mouse four

1:17:17

years you think about how you can spin

1:17:19

your wrists and all your fingers in the

1:17:21

we can move vs move your arm up

1:17:23

and die. I want it Only pivots in

1:17:25

one spot at only articulate one way. But.

1:17:28

These masterful things that have. Allowed

1:17:30

us to become this. That's

1:17:32

interesting. Earth changing species.

1:17:34

It's all disease or hands.

1:17:37

And then are mouse our our big chunk

1:17:40

of it like how you move our lips

1:17:42

and tongue with yeah yeah how precise all

1:17:44

that is to make all the sound. The

1:17:46

was only. Ones that and talk with this

1:17:48

kind of. Langley was as level of

1:17:50

yeah. Lobbyists Your

1:17:53

tongue as. says. Small.

1:17:56

Think. It's all class, sluggish and only

1:17:58

move your knee. The one way

1:18:01

I now. But. That tomboy

1:18:03

just doing your mouth right now skies

1:18:05

allow any shape you want. Well, I

1:18:07

can't. Can you do the twisty. That.

1:18:11

Now. The one. What? Some people can twist

1:18:13

it all the way upside down. A

1:18:15

couple Holbein. Some

1:18:17

role does he really the clover? So back against

1:18:19

is a clever but I can do. At.

1:18:22

Last, Ice you for a monocle. Folded her

1:18:24

tongue and how I need a saxon. Okay,

1:18:28

good you can wrong guy. Are you

1:18:30

nervous you going as you aren't producing

1:18:32

them as quickly as I can. See

1:18:34

what? Rob? they're all I can do.

1:18:36

The clover? Can you know? now? none

1:18:38

of that. I can. Slow

1:18:41

really can get media. Coverage

1:18:44

People is an unlucky clover hour

1:18:47

south of the Her out on.

1:18:50

Oh on an episode of Nobody's That

1:18:52

Will they did a they did a

1:18:54

live stream on Nobody's Listening right for

1:18:56

their patrons and one a question where

1:18:58

the patrons as spam was if you

1:19:00

could have five liquids come out of

1:19:02

each like se they have a liquid

1:19:05

some out of each finger. What a

1:19:07

great question! Is either class in a little

1:19:09

in Italy what would years? the. You.

1:19:11

Know to him right away. dial tone coffee.

1:19:14

Coffee? Okay word. Absolutely

1:19:16

No. That's a risky

1:19:19

for you. Well I mean why have

1:19:21

a fluid come on that I don't want?

1:19:23

One know what I mean like then you

1:19:25

won't stop yourself. And my with you her

1:19:28

my third ring cocaine. I'm

1:19:30

too. Easy Money. For

1:19:33

the night you're gonna say be and yeah

1:19:35

I've I only regret is that Asus again

1:19:37

I would want the coffee to come on

1:19:39

my some sort than one of my thumb

1:19:41

in the marine like a little baby way

1:19:43

yanks discussed with us. I wouldn't I you

1:19:45

know how much you've had though that he

1:19:47

dragged me and is a curse and a

1:19:49

blessing. There's a bunch of what's it

1:19:52

called. What am I to say? Like there are

1:19:54

things that stop you from drinking a lot of

1:19:56

coffee, which is the hassle of getting up and

1:19:58

near. Me Homes. Exactly And

1:20:00

barriers this wouldn't have it.

1:20:03

Hurdles mortals I would I just seems it

1:20:05

my coffee would come out of my index

1:20:07

finger and set of my some because of

1:20:09

thing a lot of people would want coffee.

1:20:13

And I'd be much easier to pour in

1:20:15

a glass of my index finger than have

1:20:17

to go like thumbs down twist everything. My

1:20:19

motor control. I you are being selfless because

1:20:21

he would have been sucking your dominance if

1:20:23

you give it to others. This is spic

1:20:25

gets in there. I'm gonna suck that

1:20:28

first index finger. Obvious. The

1:20:30

poor and a cop. Why? Would I

1:20:32

when I know I just pull my he anyway right?

1:20:35

Yes Would you drink coffee that him on a someone

1:20:37

else his fingers Eric would. And Aaron

1:20:39

would about. What are the others say? You

1:20:41

have Geico good as. Coffee. Water.

1:20:44

You. Do on our yeah well. Everyone should

1:20:47

was really doesn't know? I

1:20:49

know. Ah no. Okay,

1:20:51

wow. Those are my three

1:20:53

babies that I love It as

1:20:55

some protein I'll have a protein

1:20:58

say to the ever things. Are in

1:21:00

a Catholic A working out that. Yeah, I would

1:21:02

never need anything again because I would

1:21:04

have nutrition and calories. ah I where

1:21:06

they're doing on earth bible and like

1:21:08

I could literally go out into the

1:21:10

desert for as long as I fucking

1:21:13

wanted was nothing. Not even a backpack

1:21:15

full of who's. Yeah break

1:21:17

question however as as as a

1:21:19

gene. I agree, I was bell. Was.

1:21:22

Bill Oh As A Man Cosby.

1:21:28

Okay, I would pick. My

1:21:31

of places. Are you do a worse?

1:21:33

Can it be air? Air Oxygen.

1:21:35

Know. In Monterey I don't. I

1:21:37

can swim across the land. I. Would

1:21:40

like that yes, but know it's liquid

1:21:42

only. Pick like oil so you can sell

1:21:44

us. Know Rob

1:21:46

most P M L A most

1:21:48

people bass winning language go to

1:21:50

Liquid Gold. Smell is hop now

1:21:53

listen it's in the water see.

1:21:55

That's what most people pick. gasoline.

1:21:57

Definitely. Oh, to fill their car.

1:22:00

On it shows how spoiled I am. You.

1:22:02

View it as me that in two

1:22:04

thousand two I'm like fuck man unleaded

1:22:07

gas or sure killing me and the

1:22:09

maybe milk. Mail.

1:22:11

That was kill me to. Will you

1:22:13

buy milk with your coffee? Or

1:22:16

like during a blacksmith. I don't like

1:22:18

if you're serving others. right?

1:22:21

Okay, now I know my south. Africa ass

1:22:23

to honor Why? Water

1:22:25

to wine? Yeah. Water

1:22:28

English Breakfast. Tea. Or have. Milk.

1:22:32

For my t full on a second

1:22:34

I just thought of something. Let. You're.

1:22:36

Probably going to dedicate a couple or

1:22:39

three of your fingers to wind because

1:22:41

you are different flavors at different times

1:22:43

when. English Breakfast Tea Spaghetti. Specific.

1:22:46

The new What Wine? I.

1:22:48

Don't I wouldn't pick one. Oh and regress

1:22:51

I know actually I am going up of.

1:22:54

Course you know me known as. I. Knew I was

1:22:56

doing eyes. I was trying to do the hurdle saying.

1:22:58

Like matter. If I.

1:23:00

Insecure premium would have a

1:23:02

shouting match. Ill I

1:23:04

hate Agnes actually. I. Did

1:23:07

that with. A better would stop

1:23:09

drinking. Really, I can as

1:23:11

well as you have to. Know

1:23:13

it's just like it's any

1:23:15

time. On my mind. Yeah,

1:23:18

I read as then to that. Didn't

1:23:20

anyone so dumb? The pick your and. And

1:23:23

get oh My. God. Well.

1:23:25

He bought those we have fun threats to like.

1:23:28

Throw p on peaceful world is interesting about

1:23:30

that is a be nicer to be able

1:23:32

to step up to a sink as put

1:23:34

your finger in. The same is on is

1:23:36

it was actually draining your bladder. Deathly

1:23:39

fear He said it's so it

1:23:41

be so easy. As really smart. I'm

1:23:43

not taking that to the i don't want

1:23:45

em a lot of made it a point

1:23:48

I don't want my p near mice, water

1:23:50

and stars. Will just keep among and

1:23:52

Windsor at the end of his of

1:23:54

reuse it was water, english breakfast tea

1:23:56

and milk. So sit and I worry

1:23:58

about milk getting like. Cross the

1:24:00

ammonia weighed less than my

1:24:03

cousin and I wouldn't think.

1:24:05

Yeah. Mike. Lee. Oh My. God. So

1:24:07

I do breast milk for the world's. Says

1:24:10

he poses have like a wet nurse

1:24:13

for the world within your own bodies.

1:24:15

Can't. Suckle. Own as we

1:24:17

use it and cheering for your house and just have them

1:24:19

bring children by and slipper. Sunni

1:24:22

which I feel that you know like as it

1:24:24

is like hell was he produced smell to be

1:24:26

just like keep at would have a baby if

1:24:28

I'm not keep I had access hello at nurses.

1:24:31

Some people they have a limited supply

1:24:33

side on. That's only if you have

1:24:35

a really good supply. Wow, I'm using

1:24:38

to for Melt. I did not anticipate

1:24:40

there's. A you're sitting on the

1:24:42

around, on on on on. I didn't think

1:24:44

said no but. The problem is I really don't

1:24:46

like English. both the see with out melt. So.

1:24:50

See got me Sad Would suppose you could

1:24:52

put like with he did your index in

1:24:54

your middle finger. He does purple fingers injured.

1:24:56

Exactly. That's I only need a little not so what

1:24:58

have we should be looking for. I'd have to like

1:25:00

Do it. Really Like. Notice making him so he

1:25:02

doesn't come out. You have control over this is

1:25:04

the and was breakfast with mouth out of one

1:25:07

finger. The. Because if you

1:25:09

don't have tested or wrote landed he only

1:25:11

got final tally. Yeah how dare you Room.

1:25:13

With. Us senate for a while, but it only

1:25:16

has one. One married you can kill

1:25:18

final as a muscle milk. Fast.

1:25:20

Better and then I can't

1:25:22

see self. English waxes see

1:25:24

whole milk. Breast. Milk

1:25:27

home. I. Gotta

1:25:29

get rid of breastmilk. No one's gonna

1:25:31

wanna bring everybody to such. Oh. That's

1:25:33

why you think I do like about

1:25:35

privilege. Oh dear his artwork grade answering

1:25:37

males are out that kit. I'm certain

1:25:40

was Feals is crawling with children who have no eggs.

1:25:42

And I mean. I don't know if all

1:25:44

be able to so it's good for me.

1:25:46

Preventative. Of her eyes of Brazil liquid

1:25:48

gold like you components will as

1:25:50

soon as the classroom minutes release

1:25:52

and poor now. I mean I

1:25:54

guess. Whole milk? his. Breath to rebrand hunan call

1:25:57

it broke out for them for this is

1:25:59

whole superman. Yeah, and we'll make a

1:26:01

gold liquid gold. Okay. Are you

1:26:03

what's your fifth? Okay

1:26:06

fine, I'll do a cab I guess okay a cab

1:26:13

With my arm I

1:26:16

never wake up in the morning and

1:26:18

like you Feel

1:26:21

and you look down your sheets and just

1:26:23

fucking there's an enormous puddle of all those

1:26:26

liquids Ruined your mattress

1:26:29

Yes Dehydrated

1:26:33

can you imagine I know there's

1:26:35

a lot of questions like you have to drink

1:26:37

gallons and gallons of water No, no, that's the

1:26:39

whole point of it coming from a mystery play.

1:26:41

Yeah. Yeah, or like Hgh That's

1:26:46

not a little um

1:26:50

Or adrenaline what am I

1:26:52

thinking? I'd obviously do electrolytes

1:26:55

But element is a powder. So this

1:26:57

gets complex. Anyway, um, all right a great

1:26:59

one Thank you Yeah,

1:27:04

I wish we had asked Bill Gates

1:27:06

be clear that What

1:27:09

he would pick what he would obviously pick Diet

1:27:11

Coke coffee, India

1:27:13

water India

1:27:15

water out of the well Try

1:27:19

to keep me yeah, I think

1:27:22

you drink orange juice. Yeah Well,

1:27:24

he would drink anything. He's right anything. He's right anything.

1:27:27

The only thing he wants to drink is Diet

1:27:29

Coke Yeah, yeah, and a

1:27:31

lot of not a lot several people in

1:27:33

the comments asked how many diet coke's did

1:27:35

you guys drink combined? In that week and

1:27:38

I said in excess of a hundred and I stand by

1:27:40

that God you

1:27:43

drank a lot. Yeah, I think he and

1:27:45

I both were doing at least eight

1:27:47

nine a day I don't know about him.

1:27:49

I thought you drink more than him He magically

1:27:52

had like he had Diet Cokes in all these meetings. I'm

1:27:54

like where that I wanted a Diet

1:27:56

Coke You normally did he has a

1:27:58

team, of course Public

1:28:00

swipe and model cars and stuff as

1:28:02

legal scavenger. Yeah, you are. Yeah, Okay

1:28:04

I think that's high right? I am

1:28:07

many way is still some will have

1:28:09

ah people who become Rhodes Scholars after

1:28:11

community college. There was a

1:28:13

guy sort of recently is

1:28:16

his name shout outs. Is.

1:28:20

Suzie Him Hard Men and

1:28:22

this is two thousand and

1:28:24

seventeen. He. Was the first

1:28:26

graduate from Community College of Philadelphia to become

1:28:28

a Rhodes Scholar. Oh wow. At.

1:28:31

The risk of perpetuating this stereotype

1:28:33

that be bored autism of like

1:28:36

superpowers. Or. You once you move

1:28:38

on the spectrum, you know. If

1:28:40

you search it out yet rub. Know if

1:28:42

we wanted with the kids is

1:28:44

so it's everything Bradley said. It

1:28:47

was so heartwarming. With. There's this

1:28:49

boy. Oh my God. of course I wanted

1:28:51

you to so bad as use episode. It's

1:28:54

an Indian boy in Long Beach.

1:28:56

Please. On boy he's I gun. Z.

1:29:00

With be thirty two. Oh.

1:29:03

And I'm wheeze with his

1:29:05

mom and his dad and

1:29:07

his sister. And they're from

1:29:09

India the he's were centers him but they're

1:29:11

not sell them. so the mom does most

1:29:14

the like. It's his birthday and she

1:29:16

does all the speaking. In. She's

1:29:18

like, you know and I hope. You. Meet

1:29:20

a girl. He goes not any

1:29:22

Indian girl. I don't want any. Say

1:29:26

I have is this money that is.

1:29:28

I'm like, okay, well that's not a

1:29:30

nice thing to say. Cnbc kind of

1:29:32

keeps going and any like, how long

1:29:34

are you going to talk to. Us

1:29:38

but I'll make are they were

1:29:40

asking him questions like I'm. P.

1:29:42

Museo travel to India so he com um.

1:29:45

Yeah no himself. Yes this is really

1:29:47

is says what we talk about like

1:29:50

there's no. For. This particular

1:29:52

individual with autism which was

1:29:54

mean anything by any other

1:29:56

whenever he deems is the

1:29:58

truth and honest. There's like,

1:30:00

there's just no hesitation. There's

1:30:03

no consideration. Like if he just says, I don't

1:30:05

want any girlfriend. If that crosses his mind, he

1:30:07

just says it. But they were asking him, what

1:30:09

day was March 12th, 1998? In

1:30:13

this fast he goes, that was Tuesday. Yeah, I've heard

1:30:15

of that. And then they said, like, what do you

1:30:17

want to do on your date? And he said, like,

1:30:19

talk about math. And then they said, like,

1:30:21

what's 126 times 92? And

1:30:24

the second they finish asking, he just

1:30:26

says the answer. Wow. And

1:30:29

so. So cool. The reason

1:30:31

I bring that up is I

1:30:33

was thinking, that is the most

1:30:35

abstract ability for you and I

1:30:38

to imagine having. Exactly. It's like,

1:30:40

it's not even reachable.

1:30:42

I can't even fathom it. It's

1:30:44

so, it's intangible. Yeah. And

1:30:47

I was thinking, and then this

1:30:49

skill set I have is equally

1:30:51

as abstract. Yeah. That's

1:30:53

right. Every skill in a

1:30:56

vacuum is abstract. It's just

1:30:58

how prevalent is the skill?

1:31:00

Yes. And so my follow up to that was like, once

1:31:03

I connected those two things, like,

1:31:05

wow, that's something I can't really

1:31:09

grasp. But I

1:31:11

don't feel bad because of it. No one should

1:31:13

pity me because I can't tell you what day

1:31:15

of the month March 12th was, 1998. It

1:31:20

helped me go like, yeah, yeah, you shan't

1:31:22

pity these people, nor assume that they really

1:31:24

give a flying fuck if they don't have

1:31:27

that skill. Because I don't have that skill,

1:31:29

and I'm just flying, not having that skill.

1:31:31

Right. Again, the difference

1:31:33

though is you aren't expected to.

1:31:36

Right. Not having that skill doesn't

1:31:38

prevent me from holding employment or

1:31:40

finding a partner, for sure. Society

1:31:42

isn't looking at you in a way because you

1:31:44

don't have it. Yes. But at the

1:31:46

same time, it helped me, I think, understand

1:31:49

that they're not going like, wait, so you guys look

1:31:51

each other, you stare each other in the eyes all

1:31:54

the time, and you're comfortable doing that? Yeah.

1:31:56

I don't really care that. I can't do that. And help

1:31:58

me to that. place. Yeah,

1:32:00

they're not coveting the thing I can

1:32:02

do per se. They might

1:32:05

be coveting a job or coveting a

1:32:07

relationship, but the actual thing that they

1:32:09

don't have, it's not driving them

1:32:12

mad that they don't have, but just like it's not driving me

1:32:14

nuts, I can't do 129 times. I mean,

1:32:16

I would try to do that. It'd be a cool thing to

1:32:18

be able to do, but my

1:32:20

reality is my reality. The things that

1:32:22

aren't in my reality aren't giving me

1:32:24

discomfort. But the discomfort comes

1:32:26

from society. It doesn't come from a personal.

1:32:28

It comes from a personal. The discomfort of not having a

1:32:30

job is not having a job. They

1:32:32

might not even really care about not having a job.

1:32:34

It's the fact that you need a job in this

1:32:37

world. Yes, but those things are

1:32:39

different. Those are outcomes. Yeah. So

1:32:42

yes, I can see they might want

1:32:44

a job or want a partner, but

1:32:47

the skill, if you don't have it,

1:32:49

you don't really care. Yeah, I agree.

1:32:52

I wouldn't care personally if I

1:32:54

couldn't look someone in the eye.

1:32:56

I only care because other people

1:32:58

take that as a sign something

1:33:01

is off with me. Like

1:33:03

again, I'm agreeing with you. Like the

1:33:05

skill itself means nothing. It's

1:33:07

just what we've decided is norm. I'm

1:33:10

on a stop pitying campaign. Can you feel it? Yeah,

1:33:13

I think it's good. Pity is, I guess, you know why I'm

1:33:16

on it? Pity is different than compassion though. It

1:33:18

is. It is because there's an implied

1:33:21

superiority to pity. I agree. Yeah. So,

1:33:24

you know, I'm in a, I think it's on my

1:33:26

mind because I'm in a position where I have young

1:33:28

children and I'm trying to delineate the difference between these

1:33:30

things. I agree. Like when you feel

1:33:32

pity for somebody, that means you think you're superior

1:33:34

to them. Or your position is better.

1:33:36

Enviable. But sometimes it

1:33:38

is better. Think both

1:33:40

things or again, no, I'm with you.

1:33:43

I think pity is bad, but I

1:33:45

think compassion is very good and understanding

1:33:47

the places in life where you've been

1:33:49

given a leg up is good. Yeah,

1:33:52

like I think watching this show and understanding

1:33:54

the complexity of how

1:33:56

they process the world and

1:33:58

compassion for me. is like, great. So when

1:34:01

I am interacting with someone like this, I

1:34:03

have to have a different level of

1:34:05

tolerance and patience. And

1:34:08

I'm happy to do

1:34:10

that because I recognize they're going

1:34:12

through. You're like empathic. But

1:34:14

I don't need to go like, oh, yeah.

1:34:16

That's the part people should police

1:34:18

themselves. I agree. Totally.

1:34:20

Yeah. Okay. 40% of

1:34:23

millionaires are dyslexic, she said.

1:34:25

She thinks that's the figure.

1:34:27

There's multiple figures. A study

1:34:29

by Richard Branson's group found

1:34:31

that 35% of

1:34:33

successful entrepreneurs in the United States have

1:34:36

dyslexia. There's another one,

1:34:41

60% of self-made millionaires are dyslexic. There's

1:34:43

another one that says 40%. What

1:34:46

would be probably fair to say is

1:34:48

they're over-indexing. Yeah, there's a

1:34:50

good percentage. Oh, this one

1:34:52

says 60%. Like a multiple of what they represent

1:34:55

in the general population. Well,

1:34:57

I don't know how many are dyslexic.

1:34:59

Do you want to look up percentage

1:35:01

of dyslexic people in the world?

1:35:04

Dyslexic. What have you thought it was we wanted

1:35:06

to hear it pronounced? Oh,

1:35:09

that's correct. Of America or world? In the United

1:35:11

States. Okay. Well, that's all for Maureen.

1:35:14

Okay. Well, that was great. It's funny how

1:35:16

much that we had done that

1:35:18

interview prior to

1:35:20

a couple other interviews where it came

1:35:23

up a lot and I felt far

1:35:25

more informed. Yeah, me too. Yeah.

1:35:28

I definitely think she

1:35:30

is dead on right about

1:35:33

moving forward, especially in AI

1:35:35

landscape. Creativity really is

1:35:38

going to be huge. You

1:35:41

need neurodivergent people in

1:35:43

upper management. Like

1:35:45

helping run the show. I think that's really

1:35:47

important. Yeah. All

1:35:49

right. Bye. Love you. you