0:00

In this episode of

0:00

balancing the Christian life, we

0:02

talked to preacher and podcaster

0:02

Edwin Crozier about the use of

0:05

digital tools. Welcome to

0:05

balancing the Christian life.

0:12

I'm Dr. Kenny Embry. We'll talk

0:12

about how to be better

0:14

Christians and better people in

0:14

the digital age. Let's go.

0:20

Thanks for joining me. Today is

0:20

the second part of my discussion

0:23

with Edwin Crozier. In the first

0:23

part, we talked about his

0:25

background. If you missed that

0:25

episode, please go back and

0:29

listen. But today he talks

0:29

specifically about his writing

0:32

process and how he sees the

0:32

future of digital tools. We'll

0:36

pick up where he talks about his

0:36

writing process, you have

0:39

written several books, what is

0:39

your secret to writing so much?

0:43

And quite frankly, writing so well?

0:46

Well, thank you for that. I don't know that I can give you the writing so

0:48

much. I guess I'm just going to

0:52

give the answer that so many

0:52

writing coaches give if you want

0:54

to write much you got to write

0:54

every day, you've got to write

0:58

consistently, if you always plan

0:58

to write you never write, right,

1:02

it's kind of doing this podcast,

1:02

you had to set a time you had to

1:05

set a goal. And then you just

1:05

had to do it and you've got to

1:07

do the work. And certainly the

1:07

way to improve your craft of

1:11

writing is to write often. And

1:11

then to let people that you're

1:17

scared to let read your stuff,

1:17

read your stuff, and then listen

1:20

to them. When they tell you the things you didn't want to hear about it. Everybody in their

1:21

brother wants to write a book,

1:25

about 25% of them have kind of

1:25

tried. And once they find out

1:29

that you're writing something,

1:29

what they want you to do is read

1:31

it. What they really want you to

1:31

do is tell them what you really

1:34

think right? And what they need

1:34

to hear. What they want you to

1:37

do is validate everything that

1:37

you thought in your head was

1:40

exactly wonderful. And you wrote

1:40

it just wonderfully, it is tough

1:44

to hear from the people who are

1:44

going to say, Oh, you should

1:47

have said that differently, or

1:47

you're wrong about that. So I

1:50

guess as far as improving your

1:50

craft is listen to people when

1:55

they try to help you probably

1:55

one of the things that helped me

1:57

the most. And I need to go back

1:57

and read it again, I read a book

2:00

years ago called write tight, it

2:00

just helped with that idea of

2:03

being concise. One of the other

2:03

things for writing so much is

2:07

establishing deadlines that are

2:07

accountable to other people.

2:10

Almost every book I've written

2:10

was written because I had set up

2:14

some work with a congregation

2:14

that it had to be written by a

2:17

certain time. And so that's also

2:17

been helpful. I think the other

2:21

thing is, at least for me, I you

2:21

know, look, if somebody who's

2:25

listening who's writing science

2:25

fiction, more power to you,

2:28

that's wonderful. But for me,

2:28

what I'm writing most of the

2:31

time is stuff about spirituality

2:31

and growing with God. And so for

2:35

that the content is only going

2:35

to be good if it's actually

2:38

based on the word.

2:39

There's a lot we could talk about here. I mean, we could talk about imposter

2:41

syndrome. But one of the things that I think you understand

2:43

probably better than most is how

2:46

many great first drafts have you

2:46

had?

2:51

Yeah, zero,

2:54

right? There's a

2:54

friend of mine who's she wants

2:56

to write a book. And one of the

2:56

things that I've told her is,

2:59

dump it all out. Just get it all

2:59

out there. Books make great in a

3:02

revision process.

3:03

Yes, yes,

3:03

absolutely. Absolutely. And and

3:07

even my books would have would

3:07

be so much better if I had

3:10

deeper and better revising and

3:10

editing process and support.

3:15

It's, yeah.

3:18

How did your podcast get started,

3:20

our podcast got

3:20

started probably from a very

3:22

different place than most

3:22

podcasts get started. I've been

3:26

working with the Christians on

3:26

Livingston for six years now,

3:28

Andrew has been here for four

3:28

years. So two and a half years

3:32

ago, we started asking questions

3:32

about podcasts, just just Andrew

3:36

and me talking about it. We'd

3:36

come up with an idea and be

3:40

like, Nah, that's that's too

3:40

much work, it's not going to

3:43

give the dividends that we want.

3:43

We'd have an idea. And then we

3:47

just kind of throw it aside and

3:47

we'd have an idea, and then we

3:49

throw it aside. And what really

3:49

stuck for us was actually

3:53

shifting our goal. Because I

3:53

believe that for many people,

3:58

the goal of the podcast is to

3:58

get as many people listening as

4:02

possible. And because for so

4:02

many podcasts, what they're

4:05

hoping to do is monetize it. We

4:05

have no goal to monetize it, we

4:09

have absolutely no goal to

4:09

monetize our podcast, it is a

4:12

work of the congregation that

4:12

supports us in our work. So that

4:16

was just right off the bat. We

4:16

weren't worried about that. But

4:19

even then, you know, I have my

4:19

kind of personal angst that I

4:22

want to be the you know, the

4:22

most listened to podcast out

4:26

there. And I'm having to put that aside because that's not our goal. Our goal, actually our

4:27

podcast got started because we

4:31

had an idea that said, we want

4:31

to provide something that will

4:37

put us on the phones of our

4:37

guests. We want those folks who

4:43

come to visit and worship with

4:43

us for the first time for the

4:47

second time for the third time.

4:47

We want to offer something that

4:50

will reside on the one thing

4:50

that everybody has with them

4:55

most their phone. So that's

4:55

where the idea of the podcast

4:59

came from. We had a couple of

4:59

years. ideas about how to get

5:01

there. And the one that that

5:01

settled best for us was to do

5:05

something that went along with

5:05

what we're doing as a

5:07

congregation in our Bible

5:07

reading program to provide a

5:11

short, daily devotion that just

5:11

says, here's the kind of

5:16

teaching we do at this

5:16

congregation. Here's what's

5:18

really important to us at this

5:18

congregation. Why don't you put

5:21

this on your phone? Listen to us

5:21

for a while. And we hope that

5:25

when you do, it'll cause you to

5:25

say this Sunday, I want to go

5:28

back. And that's really how we

5:28

got started. And so that's

5:31

changed how I listened to and

5:31

watch the how many downloads and

5:35

how many, how you know, what

5:35

kind of reaction we get. Because

5:40

I just keep telling myself, it's

5:40

not about how many people are

5:44

listening, it's about, can we

5:44

pass this on? Can we provide

5:47

something that's really going to

5:47

benefit? Someone who visited our

5:50

assemblies this Sunday.

5:51

So you started out

5:51

as something to support your

5:54

congregation, which makes

5:54

complete sense to me, I've

5:57

listened to a few episodes,

5:57

describe your format and why you

6:00

decided to go with that format.

6:02

Our format is a

6:02

conversation, you mentioned that

6:04

earlier, basically, you can't

6:04

possibly accomplish what our

6:08

true goal is, because you've

6:08

turned microphones on, you've

6:12

hit a button and said, start

6:12

recording, you've got an intro

6:14

and you've got an outro. But my

6:14

ultimate goal, if it were just

6:18

the perfect epitome of what I

6:18

want it to be, I want it to

6:22

sound like 12 to 15 minutes of a

6:22

fly on the wall in the room with

6:27

Edwin and Andrew talking about

6:27

the Bible. So our format is to

6:30

try to accomplish that. Well. I

6:30

mean, it is a podcast we do have

6:33

microphones on so we don't ever

6:33

pull that off. 100%. But

6:37

basically what we do, we have

6:37

our little intro that plays and

6:40

then we kick off by saying

6:40

hello, hey, Andrew had one. What

6:44

are we gonna talk about today?

6:44

Here's the song we're and we're

6:46

in the Psalms right now, in this

6:46

season, we were in Acts last

6:49

season. This is what we're going

6:49

to talk about today. Let's talk

6:52

about it. So we read the song.

6:52

And then we just start talking

6:54

about that. I do a daily

6:54

devotional blog, that goes along

6:58

with our congregations Bible

6:58

reading plan that was started

7:02

just to support the congregation

7:02

and help our brothers and

7:04

sisters get in the word more and

7:04

just get a little something that

7:07

gives him a shot in the arm

7:07

every day. And normally, the

7:11

conversation starts there,

7:11

wherever that blog post was, our

7:14

conversation is going to start

7:14

there doesn't always stay there.

7:16

Sometimes it moves on to other

7:16

things. I would like it to just

7:19

be a fly on the wall. Because

7:19

Andrew and I talk about the

7:22

Bible all the time. And we learn

7:22

from each other, and we

7:26

challenge each other and we

7:26

provoke each other. We don't

7:28

always agree with each other,

7:28

though, for the most part. We've

7:30

kept that off of the podcast,

7:30

but maybe sometimes we should

7:33

bring that into I don't know,

7:33

it's the Bible, and it should be

7:36

talked about and we do talk

7:36

about it. And now you get to

7:38

listen in on some of it.

7:40

I was teaching

7:40

First Corinthians A while ago,

7:42

and we were talking about the

7:42

schism between Paul and Barnabas

7:47

about john mark. The question

7:47

that I brought up in class was

7:50

who's right and who's wrong?

7:50

And, and the fact of the matter

7:54

is you can you can argue, well,

7:54

Barnabas was right. I mean, if I

7:58

was a fly on the wall in that

7:58

conversation, I could imagine

8:00

Barnabas saying something along

8:00

the lines of john mark is pretty

8:02

young, he made a mistake. Give

8:02

him the opportunity to fix his

8:06

mistake. And I can absolutely

8:06

hear Paul saying something along

8:09

the lines of, well, you know

8:09

what, this is a really important

8:12

mission. We can't afford to

8:12

stick with people who make a lot

8:15

of mistakes. Who's right in that

8:15

situation? I would argue they're

8:19

both right. I think the ability

8:19

to civilly disagree, has been

8:24

lost in canceled culture. And I

8:24

worry about that, especially

8:29

among Christians, that there are

8:29

some things it's perfectly

8:33

reasonable to disagree about

8:33

100% agree with you.

8:36

Wait a minute.

8:36

Hold on. I do 100% agree with

8:41

this particular thing. You will

8:41

get no argument from me on this.

8:44

Well, if you all

8:44

start disagreeing, I would love

8:46

it. What are some of the

8:46

benefits that you found a

8:49

podcast?

8:50

The number one benefit is we started our podcast for a particular reason.

8:52

That's what you asked about a

8:54

minute ago, what what got us

8:54

started. And we actually started

8:58

our podcast in February. So we

8:58

had a goal. And we had a desire,

9:02

which which is still the

9:02

mainstay of our goal. But we

9:06

were three weeks into the

9:06

podcast and all of a sudden, our

9:10

number one goal for having a

9:10

podcast no longer existed, or at

9:14

least it was interrupted. We

9:14

weren't getting guests. We

9:16

weren't. We weren't even meeting

9:16

at our building. But we in our

9:21

minds knew this is just a season

9:21

we are going to get past this.

9:24

There will be a time we'll be back together. And let's just keep this going. We're not going

9:26

to stop. We're just going to

9:28

keep going. And the number one

9:28

benefit. That's the number one

9:32

feedback we started getting as

9:32

we were calling members of the

9:35

congregation was this is really

9:35

helping us feel connected. For

9:40

me. The big benefit that we have

9:40

had from our podcasting is

9:46

within our own congregation, the

9:46

folks who have listened. It has

9:50

maintained that sense of unity

9:50

and connection. We are reading

9:55

the same scriptures because it's

9:55

our plan as a congregation to

9:58

read this together. We are

9:58

hearing the same conversations.

10:02

We're not waiting a week between

10:02

doing that we're hearing it

10:05

every day. That, to me is the

10:05

biggest benefit that we've had.

10:09

These are the tools

10:09

that I call the tools of digital

10:11

discipleship, absolutely

10:11

proponent of this, but there are

10:15

dangers to these kind of things,

10:15

what are some of those dangers

10:17

in your mind,

10:18

and I gave you

10:18

the benefit for our podcast in

10:21

specific, but I think to

10:21

understand what I see is the

10:24

dangers of just the general

10:24

tools of digital discipleship, I

10:28

want to go ahead and maybe

10:28

broaden out the benefits of the

10:31

tools generally, because that's

10:31

going to make the dangerous

10:34

stand out. In stark contrast,

10:34

it's the benefit of any tool, it

10:38

makes a particular aspect of

10:38

your job easier. It's made

10:41

connection easier and cheaper.

10:41

We don't have to build a big

10:45

building, and always How's that,

10:45

as the only place to have the

10:50

connection, we can have an

10:50

ongoing connection, I can

10:53

connect with someone while

10:53

they're driving in their car on

10:56

their way to work. They don't

10:56

have to show up at this building

10:59

at my office for me to connect

10:59

with them, or I don't have to

11:02

show up at their building at

11:02

their office. And it's made that

11:05

connection easier and cheaper.

11:05

The other thing that it's done

11:08

is it's multiplied content. Man,

11:08

there is just so much content

11:13

out there. If somebody wants to

11:13

know about some biblical

11:18

question, we can go to a source

11:18

we trust. If there's evangelists

11:22

or elders that we trust, or

11:22

authors that we trust or

11:25

disciples that we trust, we

11:25

probably can find something from

11:27

them out there about it, it gets

11:27

organized, it's searchable. It

11:31

just makes all that easier. And

11:31

so that those are the things

11:35

that I think are the benefits,

11:35

the danger of these tools, is I

11:41

end up worshiping the tools

11:41

instead of just using the tools.

11:44

Yeah, I think the answer to

11:44

everything is this new and

11:47

wonderful tool, rather than the

11:47

old and wonderful Savior. And

11:52

there's this hope shifting that

11:52

can take place. That I think is

11:57

the big danger. But it's not

11:57

just the danger for the tools of

11:59

digital discipleship. It's the

11:59

danger for every tool we've ever

12:02

used. It's the same danger we

12:02

have with church buildings, it's

12:06

the same danger we have with the

12:06

assembly schedule, the goal is

12:10

not just to use the tool, it is

12:10

easier to get good content. But

12:14

that also makes it easier to get

12:14

bad content. Not as I'm not even

12:18

just talking about you know,

12:18

there's there's all kinds of

12:22

salacious sin out there. And

12:22

that's terrible. But it's also

12:25

easier just to get error. That's

12:25

one of the dangers, but you take

12:28

the good with the bad. There's

12:28

church buildings all over the

12:30

place where errors taught, and

12:30

they still look like church

12:33

buildings. And people just as

12:33

easily find those instead of

12:37

buildings where people meet and

12:37

teach straight up pure truth.

12:41

I think one of the things that you're kind of hitting on here, which is that

12:42

we feel like we went to the

12:45

church building this past Sunday, so apparently, I'm a Christian check. I think we have

12:47

gotten so upset that the

12:51

building is locked, that we have

12:51

kind of equated the building

12:55

being locked and closed to and

12:55

now we're not Christians

12:58

anymore. And I don't think

12:58

anybody would say it exactly

13:01

that way. I think what what's

13:01

happened is, we have had to stop

13:05

doing something we've done for a

13:05

long time. This just doesn't

13:09

feel right anymore.

13:10

I do believe God

13:10

has a way he wants to be

13:13

worshipped. And I do believe

13:13

there are limits and boundaries.

13:16

I don't get to just do anything

13:16

that I want. But at the same

13:20

time, let me give this

13:20

illustration. Kenny, we both put

13:23

our pants on one leg at a time.

13:23

Yes, sir. Every morning, I

13:26

always put the same leg in

13:26

first. And so here's my

13:29

recommendation to people, when

13:29

you go to put those pants on and

13:32

you start to put that first leg

13:32

in, stop and put the other one

13:34

in and recognize how wrong that

13:34

feels. It feels wrong. There's

13:42

not a correct leg to put in your

13:42

pants first. But man when I'm

13:46

not doing it the way I've always

13:46

done it, it feels like I'm doing

13:49

something incorrectly. Just

13:49

because I feel like I'm doing

13:54

something incorrectly does not

13:54

mean that I am. And it's really

13:57

provided a wonderful opportunity

13:57

for us to reassess. What's our

14:01

mission? What's our method?

14:01

What's the difference? And are

14:04

there some different methods

14:04

that are scriptural? that get us

14:08

to the mission better when you

14:08

look at people who just get

14:10

excited about shiny new toys,

14:10

and I'm one of those they tend

14:14

to be enthusiasts for. And they

14:14

start making excuses for these

14:20

things.

14:21

I think good tools,

14:21

create relationships and sustain

14:25

relationships. And I think bad

14:25

tools become the things that you

14:30

have a relationship with.

14:31

Hmm.

14:32

One of the good

14:32

criticisms with these tools is

14:35

it often prevents you from

14:35

thinking very deeply. When

14:39

information is always there, and

14:39

you can find it with a Google

14:43

search. It divorces it of

14:43

context. And it also divorces it

14:48

of the method by which they came

14:48

to the conclusion.

14:52

What I really loved about what you just said there was that issue of a tool

14:53

helps me have a relationship

14:57

with the person or someone I'm

14:57

really supposed to have

15:00

relationship and it becomes a

15:00

problem when my relationship is

15:02

with the tool. When a hammer is

15:02

used to build houses, it is

15:06

wonderful when a hammer is used

15:06

just because I love to use

15:09

hammers, that's that's going to

15:09

be a problem. You know, one of

15:11

the problems that we've always

15:11

had, though, whenever I just ask

15:14

somebody a question, and they

15:14

just give me the answer, I don't

15:18

grow as much as when I've had to

15:18

dig it out myself. I mean, the

15:21

more time I spend on anything,

15:21

the more it becomes my own

15:23

right. And the less time the

15:23

more it's just regurgitating

15:26

what is somebody else's.

15:29

One of the things

15:29

that's happened to just in my 10

15:32

years of teaching, when I

15:32

started out a 30 page article

15:35

was a long article. And a 10

15:35

page article was a short

15:39

article. Now, a 10 page article

15:39

is amazingly long to my

15:46

students. But a two to three

15:46

page article might be

15:51

reasonable. And what I asked my

15:51

students if they've read the

15:55

answer that I get

15:55

overwhelmingly, as well, I

15:58

skimmed.

15:59

And I understand what skimming means, because I do it too. They didn't read it.

16:01

They looked at the headings.

16:05

When I started blogging 1516

16:05

years ago, when I lived in

16:10

Tennessee, we actually got a

16:10

blogging coach, because this was

16:14

we were going to be blogging for the congregation, we wanted to do the absolute excellent, most

16:16

excellent job we could to get as

16:18

many people reading as possible.

16:18

And he he talked to me about,

16:22

okay, you need to have a schedule, and you need to offer the meals, you need to offer him

16:24

snacks, and you need to think about are they going to be the

16:26

big posts or they're going to be the small posts. And then when

16:27

you when you write the post, you

16:30

got to make sure that you come up with good headings that divide the sections, because

16:32

what people are going to do is

16:34

they're going to read your

16:34

title, and they decide if your

16:37

blog post title is any good,

16:37

they'll skim it, what they'll

16:40

skim is the headings. And if

16:40

your headings are really good,

16:42

they might read a section. That

16:42

is what it's done. But the

16:45

reason is, is because that's the

16:45

medium. The medium has dictated

16:50

that but one of the things that

16:50

most concerns me about just

16:54

digital discipleship is this

16:54

concept that the medium is the

16:57

message. So we might think that

16:57

the medium is the computer or

17:01

the medium is the internet. And

17:01

I know there's some truth to

17:04

that. But when you consider

17:04

social media, which is really

17:08

some of the best aspects of

17:08

digital discipleship, as it's

17:11

where we, where we house these

17:11

things, YouTube, Facebook,

17:15

Twitter, Instagram, all of these

17:15

things, if somebody wants to get

17:20

my stuff on Facebook, where do

17:20

they have to go? They have to go

17:24

to my page. And so the medium is

17:24

actually my page. I mean, before

17:29

Facebook, it was my space. It's

17:29

my space, you have to go to my

17:34

space, you have to go to my

17:34

page, go to my thread, you have

17:36

to go to my tweet, you have to

17:36

wait a minute, what's the

17:39

medium? I am? And if the medium

17:39

is the message? For me, one of

17:46

the real dangers of digital

17:46

discipleship is that the medium

17:50

does it just changes the

17:50

message? What actually becomes

17:53

the message? Well, I do. I do.

17:53

This is my page. This is my

17:56

blog. This is not just digital

17:56

discipleship, because, you know,

17:59

one of the books I read years

17:59

ago, just on public speaking was

18:03

You are the message. And that

18:03

was just about presentation. As

18:06

we've had to basically migrate

18:06

to online tools, there is a

18:10

background debate. Are we really

18:10

worshiping together on YouTube?

18:16

Or is this a substitute for

18:16

worshiping, and the only way

18:20

that we'll actually be able to

18:20

worship is when we get back into

18:23

the same room with one another,

18:23

the first Sunday that we as a

18:27

congregation decided not to meet

18:27

and we put together our video

18:31

package. The lesson that I

18:31

presented for that was, are we

18:35

forsaking the assembly. And I do

18:35

believe that we need to make a

18:41

distinction between assembling

18:41

and worshiping. I can worship

18:48

individually, I cannot assemble

18:48

with the church individually. So

18:55

what I tried to stress when I

18:55

presented that lesson, it was

18:58

the very first Sunday and so

18:58

many churches were deciding not

19:00

to meet. And I wanted to hit

19:00

this head on. I do think a lot

19:04

of people have made some

19:04

mistakes where they've tried to

19:06

act like, well doing this

19:06

through YouTube doing this

19:09

through Facebook, doing this

19:09

through zoom is just the same as

19:12

assembling. And what I tried to

19:12

stress is absolutely not it is

19:16

not the same as assembly, it's

19:16

not any more the same as

19:18

assembling. As before all these

19:18

tools were here and we would

19:21

take the service and take it to

19:21

the nursing home for someone to

19:24

listen on the tape. They weren't

19:24

assembling with the church, but

19:27

they were still hearing everything that the church did when it did assemble. But so

19:29

then that left the question,

19:33

well, are we forsaking the

19:33

assembly then? We all recognize

19:36

that on the individual level.

19:36

Just because I don't assemble

19:39

with the saints doesn't mean I

19:39

forsook the assembly. If I'm

19:44

sick, I'm not forsaking this I'm

19:44

missing it. But I'm not

19:48

forsaking it.

19:50

There's some people who say that what happened with Coronavirus isn't an

19:51

interruption it's more

19:54

disruption. What do you think

19:54

after this is going to stick

19:58

online digital

19:58

discipleship is here to stay.

20:02

And there's a lot of fears that

20:02

I hear from preachers from

20:05

elders from Christians about

20:05

what's going to happen when all

20:07

this is done, we're still kind

20:07

of up in the air, some people

20:10

who are high risk are still

20:10

staying at home, and we have all

20:13

these fears, are they going to

20:13

show up at the, you know, the

20:16

church buildings for our

20:16

assemblies, when all this is

20:19

done? And we've got all those

20:19

kinds of things? And I mean, the

20:23

reality is, like it or not, it's

20:23

here to stay. And whether it's

20:28

Facebook, or Instagram, or

20:28

Snapchat, or, or what are these

20:33

other things parlor in a way

20:33

that are coming up and these

20:35

various things, I mean,

20:35

whichever platforms are gonna

20:40

dominate in the years to come.

20:40

The fact is, online, digital

20:44

discipleship is here to stay.

20:44

Teaching people through online

20:47

means being able to have online

20:47

classes, those things are just

20:52

here, and we need to use them.

20:52

Because the reality is,

20:55

somebody's using them. Look,

20:55

Facebook is out there. And

20:58

there's a lot of dangers on

20:58

Facebook. But if I leave

21:00

Facebook, and if all the

21:00

Christians decide to leave

21:02

Facebook, well, then there's no

21:02

picture of Jesus on Facebook at

21:05

all. You know, when we're

21:05

actually representing Jesus, if

21:09

we leave because Facebook, we've

21:09

decided as bad, then it's no

21:12

longer there. I think the other

21:12

thing that is here to stay is

21:17

the recognition of people who

21:17

are realizing that we've had the

21:21

tail wagging the dog, and far

21:21

too many cases. And what I mean

21:25

by that is the idea that my job

21:25

as the individual disciple is to

21:32

make sure that a congregation

21:32

keeps running. That's not the

21:35

way it works. The purpose for

21:35

the congregation is to help me

21:39

as the individual Christian

21:39

Connect, serve, commit, grow.

21:45

It's not my purpose is to make

21:45

sure the congregation gets to

21:48

keep existing and running its

21:48

programs. And one of the things

21:51

that's that's gonna cause I

21:51

hope, is for churches to really

21:56

assess what are we doing? How

21:56

are we growing our disciples?

22:01

How are we discipling? People?

22:01

How are we making them better

22:05

disciples in their homes, in

22:05

their families, on their jobs, I

22:12

think I have a little bit

22:12

different take on this big fear

22:14

that so many have of folks don't

22:14

come back. And I will tell you,

22:19

the folks who don't come back,

22:19

it's because for them all the

22:22

assembly is, is a place for

22:22

downloading content. And I

22:26

figured out an easier way to

22:26

download content, what we are

22:29

going to be challenged to do is

22:29

to make our assemblies about

22:32

more than downloading content,

22:32

to make our Bible classes about

22:36

more than downloading content,

22:36

it is going to have to be about

22:39

the communal worship, I'm not

22:39

sure all the ways that we're

22:43

going to realize that and grow

22:43

that. But I do think that the

22:47

tail is not gonna be able to wag

22:47

the dog, we're gonna have to be

22:50

about growing the individuals

22:50

and their relationship, rather

22:54

than just begging the

22:54

individuals to come and grow our

22:57

church.

22:58

I think the

22:58

pandemic exposes our

23:02

relationship with God, to a

23:02

larger extent the relationship

23:05

that we have, with the

23:05

individuals in the church,

23:08

coming to a building to hear

23:08

another class about Genesis or

23:13

something like that. The

23:13

information is freely available,

23:16

but the care isn't when the

23:16

assembly is nothing more. But

23:19

here's how you

23:19

download content, then why go.

23:22

But when I'm recognizing the

23:22

community that's going on here,

23:26

when I'm understanding that

23:26

there's something about

23:29

participating in the supper in a

23:29

group of Brethren, rather than

23:36

in my living room by myself,

23:39

it would be a true

23:39

crime, to have everybody in the

23:43

church basically trained on

23:43

digital tools, and then say,

23:50

yeah, we're going to stop using

23:50

those now, we realized that you

23:53

learned a lot with those tools.

23:53

But please forget that skill

23:57

set. Now. We need you to stop

23:57

using that and come back to this

24:02

thing, where we recognize there

24:02

were benefits, but we're going

24:05

to get rid of those benefits.

24:05

Now. If Christians don't use the

24:08

things that we're able to use

24:08

now. I think we are just as bad

24:12

stewards of what God has given

24:14

us through this crisis. Let me give you a parallel that maybe we'll bring

24:16

this home. We don't think about

24:19

it with digital discipleship,

24:19

but let's think about it with

24:22

book discipleship. What if I

24:22

were to say to you, there are

24:25

some dangers in everyone having

24:25

their own copy of the Bible. Now

24:30

that everybody has their own

24:30

copy of the Bible, what we need

24:33

to do is throw all of those away

24:33

and only keep the copy of the

24:36

Bible that is preserved at the

24:36

churches meeting place. That

24:41

would be utterly ridiculous.

24:41

Everybody having their own copy

24:46

of the Bible presents the exact

24:46

same danger that we're having

24:49

with digital discipleship. In

24:49

First Timothy chapter four and

24:51

verse 13. Paul told Timothy to

24:51

give attention to reading and

24:56

some of the more modern

24:56

translations they have changed

24:58

that to say give it to into

24:58

public reading. Because what

25:02

we've come to recognize is that

25:02

Paul was not telling Timothy, go

25:05

home and read your Bible, he was

25:05

telling Timothy, make sure that

25:09

when the church gets together,

25:09

you read Scripture, and it needs

25:12

to be read publicly, and it

25:12

needs to be read communally. And

25:15

it needs to be read together.

25:15

And one of the reasons for that

25:18

is because that was the only

25:18

place there was a copy. If they

25:21

were going to hear the

25:21

scriptures at all, they had to

25:24

come together where the

25:24

scriptures were kept and read

25:26

them. And what that did was

25:26

produced a strong community, as

25:31

they heard it, as the sense was

25:31

given to it by prophets, by

25:35

teachers, by those who had sat

25:35

at the feet of the Apostles, and

25:39

could could expound on what was

25:39

said, by those who just studied

25:41

it and grown themselves. And

25:41

then just just hearing it again

25:45

and again and again, and being

25:45

there in the community. Well,

25:48

then we start having our own

25:48

copies of the Bible. And what I

25:51

can do is I can go study it on

25:51

my own, and I mean, my whole

25:54

Christian life, and especially

25:54

as a preacher, I've had people

25:56

say, yeah, I'm not coming to

25:56

Bible classes anymore, because I

25:58

get more out of it on my own.

25:58

And they can do that. Now. It's

26:01

a lot easier for them to do that, because they have their own Bible. I mean, back when

26:03

nobody had Bibles, the only way

26:05

they could get it was to go to

26:05

church. So the reality is, our

26:08

printed Bibles have caused the

26:08

exact same danger that digital

26:12

discipleship is causing, not a

26:12

single one of us would say, Oh,

26:16

we need to get rid of

26:16

everybody's Bibles. Yeah, no, we

26:19

just tell people, let's not use

26:19

lose the community.

26:22

I think there's

26:22

also something I just started

26:24

thinking about this where you're

26:24

saying that don't confuse having

26:28

a Bible with having a

26:28

relationship with God. Yep.

26:32

That's not the same thing.

26:34

Brother when I

26:34

was in college, I worked with a

26:37

congregation in Florence,

26:37

Alabama, and I got to work with

26:40

a couple of, of preachers who

26:40

were older than me, Harold

26:43

Comber, and David Tom Lee, and

26:43

they were working with me trying

26:47

to help me learn about preaching

26:47

and getting the opportunities to

26:50

preach while I was in college.

26:50

And when I was leaving there, I

26:53

got to have coffee with David

26:53

Tom Lee. And he asked me

26:57

questions that I mean, you know,

26:57

that's tough, man. 25 years ago,

27:00

how long ago is that? 25 years

27:00

ago, and I still remember this,

27:04

this coffee. And he asked me two

27:04

questions. He asked me, he said,

27:08

Edwin, you're about to leave, you're gonna go start working with a congregation full time.

27:10

You've been working with us for

27:12

a year and a half now. Do you

27:12

feel like you're a better

27:15

preacher? Oh, yeah. Yeah,

27:15

absolutely. David, I am

27:18

absolutely a better preacher. I

27:18

know more. I'm better at

27:21

delivering it. You guys. You

27:21

know, you and Harold have just

27:24

taught me so much. And these experiences have been so wonderful. Okay. All right. Now.

27:26

Now, here's my second question.

27:31

Edwin. Are you a better

27:31

Christian? And Edwin, that's not

27:37

the same as the last question.

27:37

And it hit me when he said that,

27:41

because when he because when he said, Are you a better Christian, my initial thought

27:43

before he followed it up with

27:45

was, well, I just told you, I'm

27:45

better. And it was a realization

27:52

that, yeah, that owning the

27:52

Bible, knowing the Bible that's

27:57

going to be a part of being a

27:57

better Christian. But just

28:00

having that is not being a

28:00

better disciple is not growing.

28:03

I in my podcast, be

28:03

good and do good. What is good?

28:08

You know, the Lord has told you, oh, man, what is good to do justice to love

28:10

kindness and walk humbly with

28:13

your God. I can't answer better

28:13

than that.

28:16

Alright, Edwin,

28:16

thank you so much for doing

28:19

this. If somebody wanted to get

28:19

in touch with you, how would

28:21

they do

28:21

that? My email is

28:21

Edwin at God's way. works.com.

28:28

Or you can just go to Christians

28:28

meet here.org. And if you send

28:33

an email through that website,

28:33

that's the website for the

28:35

congregation. I work with

28:35

Christians meet here.org they

28:38

can send a response through

28:38

there. I would love to ask

28:41

people to search text talk on

28:41

your podcast listening device,

28:46

and subscribe, listen, rate

28:46

review. And just like you've

28:50

done with Kenny's podcast here,

28:50

and then you can you can contact

28:55

us through that and be a part of

28:55

the ongoing Bible conversation.

28:58

Well, thanks a lot for doing this. Man. This has been a lot of fun.

29:01

I've enjoyed it. Thank you for letting me be a part of it, Kenny. It really

29:03

means a lot to me really does.

29:05

That was an amazing

29:05

conversation for me. As I said

29:08

last time, Edwin was a

29:08

revelation. He's doing some

29:11

really cool things. I love how

29:11

they originally thought of his

29:14

podcast as a way to keep

29:14

connected to their guests. But

29:17

then it became a connector for

29:17

the members of the church.

29:20

That's a valuable insight, and

29:20

had never thought about how

29:23

digital discipleship was

29:23

basically the same thing as

29:26

having your personal copy of the

29:26

Bible. He's truly a thoughtful

29:29

guy. Make sure you go out and

29:29

listen to text talk, his

29:33

podcasts, they're still in the

29:33

Psalms, and they're doing some

29:36

excellent work there. I hope you

29:36

have a great week. So this week,

29:40

let's be good and do good.