0:09

Welcome. To the Damage Podcast Don't see the

0:11

Regret or from Bear marriage.com where we like

0:13

Tuck but Health the evidence based biblical advice

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for your sex life and your marriage. We've

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got a really fun podcast for you today

0:19

because I got some I respect so much

0:21

that I've learned so much from coming onto

0:23

an interview with me and that's going to

0:25

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as get healthy information out there. So thank

1:33

you for being part of this and now

1:35

without further ado, I would like to bring

1:37

on J. Stringer. He sent. Me a

1:39

link to a little clip. From.

1:42

A Southern Baptist pastor talking about sex.

1:44

And let's start the interview and we

1:46

will let you in on what happened

1:48

to. While I am so glad to

1:50

bring in the podcast again, my friend

1:52

Jay Stringer with a licensed counsellor, the

1:54

author of Unwanted and Just In General

1:56

a really smart guy about sex and

1:58

Christianity and everything. So. Lo J.

2:01

Hello Sheila is so good to be

2:03

back with you! So honored to be

2:05

here. Yeah. It's always had and okay

2:07

here. Here's here's the set up and that he

2:09

said they sent me an email I don't know

2:12

like couple weeks ago saying. Have. You seen

2:14

this clip cause this is weird

2:16

and. It was mega church pastor

2:18

Josh Harrison who was it licked

2:20

Point search in Dallas I believe

2:22

We have talked about Sauce on

2:24

several other podcasts. One where. I

2:27

called him out for plagiarizing for different

2:30

people and eight minute piece a sermon

2:32

so that was interesting. and then when

2:34

we looked at how he mischaracterizes data

2:36

about the such that conservative christians do

2:39

best. and finally a boat a sex

2:41

talk that he and less the of

2:43

on Instagram in our plea was to

2:45

not make pastors give sex talk costs

2:47

the throne and now we have this

2:50

clip from a recent marriage nights in

2:52

March and in a wet I think

2:54

we should just play it's a linked

2:56

list as list. As let people hear it

2:58

So. Here we go. I just love

3:01

to give you a lot of

3:03

a nugget a gold piece of

3:05

marriage advice. would you like this?

3:07

would you like scale Me I'm

3:09

he didn't say this is solely

3:11

for he was given to me

3:13

years ago I'd So first let

3:15

me let me talk to do

3:17

specifically dude that are heading in

3:19

some married someday does not want

3:21

to do case. So do you

3:23

know this heading into married someday

3:25

when you get so hung? Wedding

3:27

day. Sees been

3:29

planning this day for whole

3:31

life. She got her

3:33

first low wedding magazine when she was fourteen years

3:36

old. She put a blanket around her acts like

3:38

he was a wedding dress seated a towel over

3:40

the head. it was avail all the things season

3:42

and planning to stay her whole life. So here's

3:45

what you do. You just need a stand

3:47

where she tells you to san where was he

3:49

tells you where and do is he tells you

3:51

to do you get a major the happiest one

3:54

of the world guy Cel Applause Now that's applause.

3:56

Let's see if you applaud this. Lady's.

4:00

When. You get to his wedding night. He's.

4:05

Been planning this night his whole

4:07

life. So. What you need

4:09

to do is said where he tells you to

4:11

san where we tells you to wear a do

4:13

what he tells you to do you're not making

4:15

about happiest man in the world. Say

4:18

that. That feels

4:21

like like masculine laughter is

4:23

were clapping and world war.

4:26

So. Uses

4:28

that. Sorry What? Why did you said that

4:30

to me? What you say, what you thought this.

4:33

Yeah, so I I said my

4:35

cousin had actually sent me that

4:37

in the amassing. My cousin is

4:39

somewhat familiar with my world. a

4:41

familiar that I'm an author but

4:43

that is essentially had said can

4:45

you believe this crap and I

4:47

didn't know what he was referring

4:49

to. Clicked on the way. and

4:52

I mean, I don't even remember

4:54

the pastor's name Big, his name

4:56

is Josh. The name is not

4:58

nearly as important to me unless

5:00

you're in that congregation as just

5:02

the sentiments. Of was is brought

5:04

their So there is a sociologist by

5:06

the name of Syllabary and he said

5:08

that the best way to critique a

5:11

culture is to biopsy at and so

5:13

I think about being a doctor and

5:15

you get your syringe out you take

5:17

some of the cells our and then

5:20

you examine it and the of. The.

5:23

Doctor is fairly calm, tries to honor

5:25

but like a very intentional about like

5:27

we need to analyze what's in this

5:30

and you look at it and say

5:32

as their health and or is there

5:34

any pathology in this and then if

5:37

you don't do anything what's the ramifications

5:39

of not addressing that and so I

5:41

think you're this sentiment. That.

5:44

He discloses is just deeply deeply

5:46

harmful and we can unpack bad

5:48

and are you pry? have your

5:50

own take on it and I

5:52

have mine set at. I think

5:54

the gist of what I would

5:56

say is this is deeply deeply

5:58

abusive and harmful to women but

6:00

it is also deeply deeply harmful

6:02

for men is so for me

6:04

there is the kind of the

6:06

harmful aspects and then the heartbreaking

6:08

aspect of this for men. And

6:10

I think the harmful aspect as

6:12

many speaking directly to people that

6:14

are about to get married which

6:16

are probably in their early to

6:18

mid twenties when entitlement waiting miss

6:20

a lot of purity message it's

6:22

coming to fruition. And then there's

6:25

the sense of entitlement that that

6:27

begins to build for a lot

6:29

of men. Getting the other

6:31

heartbreaking side to it is this

6:33

message seats men wildly under developed

6:35

and transistors that ending marriage in

6:38

terms of understanding sex, how to

6:40

build desire, how to build bromance,

6:42

how to understand how to work

6:45

with your own emotions, Work with

6:47

how to cultivate love and collaboration

6:49

with in a marriage. So it

6:52

is just one of those messages.

6:54

Were it not a wanna? Just

6:56

like shake my head and dismiss

6:59

it as. If this is just

7:01

an isolated incident and I want to

7:03

push it away and as be like

7:05

okay, let's move on. people don't actually

7:08

believe that, but I, you and I

7:10

get these messages all the time and

7:12

this is just one microcosm of many

7:15

that seats a very harmful and under

7:17

developed message about sex operating in our

7:19

world. Yeah and as late as a

7:21

T and I want to take this as you can.

7:23

I say as he has a beginning part is it

7:26

for even get to the sector? And say.

7:28

That whole thing about how man says

7:30

been planning this letting her whole life

7:33

so to so up stand where she

7:35

says were which he says do it

7:37

she says. I.

7:40

Don't want to go into this too much. That

7:42

led me to say that women don't want to

7:44

bear the entire mental load for the weddings. If

7:48

I don't want my wife to bear

7:50

it either, I went back to my

7:52

wedding at that to the it's for

7:54

that exact point system was. I had

7:56

so much fun planning like we had

7:58

different typewriters where people can. Right notes

8:00

and I was bringing some of my

8:02

mind and imagination to the process of

8:05

figuring out what I wanted to wear

8:07

on my wedding day and emulate. It

8:09

was a deeply collaborative have been between

8:11

Heather and I and one of those

8:13

things that that was almost better than

8:16

the actual wedding day was the whole

8:18

preparation together of getting to plan to

8:20

stay day. So I stopped at to.

8:23

The. Galaxy is see if see ask see looks

8:25

and a cake you want. She doesn't want

8:27

you to say whatever you want is fine

8:29

she wants. You to care

8:31

because. You this is your friends.

8:33

This is family to like. She doesn't want

8:36

to bear the responsibility for all of that.

8:38

Soaks like to eat it and also it

8:40

has. One of those early usually. Like

8:43

it's your. Family's a major event to and

8:45

if the bride does everything than your

8:48

family's kind of left out of it

8:50

like it's just it's just so strange.

8:52

This whole idea. Yeah, it's one

8:54

of those early stages of like

8:56

you know it is the marriage

8:58

going to be collaborative or not.

9:00

I'm an asthma early sentiment that

9:02

like men are you know just

9:04

not supposed to care about some

9:06

other domestic or have been details

9:08

here they are supposed to cared

9:10

sweat a lot about. What?

9:13

Sex looks like between the two of

9:15

themselves. Yeah, it does Not is not

9:17

a good set up, it's just is

9:20

those classic examples of poor metaphors and

9:22

tore teachings that. Keep

9:25

all of us under developed As I'm going to

9:27

keep saying, Yeah, it really is a

9:29

case on let's let's let's dissect the sex

9:31

part a bit. I don't even. it's just

9:33

so bad I don't even. Know where and as

9:35

nord. But with the that the expectation

9:37

from the very beginning is that all

9:40

see his cared about the wedding and

9:42

she doesn't care but sex at all

9:44

said before we even get select what

9:46

the guy once that is just not

9:49

true was. Split with

9:51

the assumption here that women don't have

9:53

a sex drive. That's.

9:58

Not true. Women: Sex

10:00

drive movement and look forward to

10:02

sex. And do look forward to

10:05

sex if a. Woman is not

10:07

looking for the sex that's actually a red

10:09

flag like like we both city looking forward

10:11

to sex. With them. Yes,

10:14

Yes! and I'm in sheila hours

10:16

from A As I was thinking

10:18

about this episode just like thinking

10:21

through. The. No sir, nerves

10:23

your it's set up That as you

10:25

said, women are not going to be

10:27

part of bringing their imagination and desire

10:29

to sex buy it for me. There's

10:31

I mean I'm a I'm a therapist.

10:33

So let me start unpacking. And yes,

10:36

I listen to it. So on one

10:38

hand, there is this notion of kind

10:40

of like men beating to just kind

10:42

of be compliance. That that's the initial

10:44

setup of just stand where she wants

10:46

you to stand. do what you want

10:48

to do. In a lot of times,

10:50

that can be that evangelical parenting moto.

10:52

As well, it's like we don't want

10:54

your desires, we don't want your differentiation,

10:57

We don't like your development because desire

10:59

in another itself is going to

11:01

be disruptive. So I think a lot

11:04

of these men are coming from families

11:06

that have had a lot conditions

11:08

placed upon them to look at particular

11:10

way be a particular way, say things

11:13

in a particular way, and then

11:15

they're told to abstain from sex for

11:17

marriage. But then they are also introduced

11:19

at some point to the world

11:21

of pornography and. Pornography is

11:24

not about lust primarily.

11:26

Pornography. As about power some just

11:28

be ability that I get to ask

11:30

someone to stand where I want them

11:32

to stand to meal when I want

11:34

them to deal of look the way

11:36

that I want them to look into

11:38

be able to have complete power and

11:40

control over someone. Can I think bout

11:42

you Lately I'm. I'm I

11:44

can pay now. You're so right. That

11:47

is what he was describing. Yes,

11:49

he was in driving Said support

11:51

aside mindset. Such. A point

11:53

aside my mother and know it's and the

11:55

background of bad as that. Often.

11:58

Times As christians we are. This and

12:00

to like not have desire to suppress

12:02

our desires to not care about what

12:04

we have to wear if it's gonna

12:06

be disruptive and dad is a neutral

12:09

once you begin to ask people to

12:11

suppress their desire that is going to

12:13

create entitlement in one round. So think

12:15

about this is like a see saw

12:17

where the more you deprive yourself of

12:19

what you want and what you desire

12:21

the more that that seesaws gonna go

12:23

back to a place of the title

12:25

met in the future. And so I

12:27

think a lot of men are. Conditioned

12:30

to not have many desires to that

12:32

in the world. A forum that is

12:34

about power. They're able to get exactly

12:37

what they want when they wanted on

12:39

demand and they are able to click

12:41

and put into search bar is the

12:43

exact thing that they want to see

12:46

the exact thing that they want the

12:48

person importance to be wearing him. Then

12:50

you mix all of that and to

12:52

a particular wedding day where they have

12:54

been waiting in. Then it brings such

12:57

a porn of five view of sex

12:59

marriage which is. You know

13:01

she just needs to be available

13:03

on demand. When I tell her

13:05

to she needs a where would

13:07

I tell her to where she

13:09

needs to be available when I

13:11

tell her to be available And

13:13

in the long run that become

13:15

deeply deeply abusive and as you

13:17

put so so well and so

13:19

much of your work obligations, sex

13:21

kills desire. So this whole sentiment

13:23

that like men are supposed to.

13:26

Wozzeck. From this way it

13:28

is impeding the very fact that

13:30

they purport to watch and so

13:32

I think from that message to

13:34

then. Also you know lot of

13:36

your research has pointed out with

13:38

regard to Batum. This mess with

13:40

massive messages like this as well

13:42

mean but the berea of this

13:44

type of message create so much

13:46

harm for men and women alike.

13:49

Yeah. Let me just zero and other that innocence thing

13:51

from an attachment is actually on the. Blog last

13:53

week on a post about whether

13:55

not sex hurts the first time

13:58

and how we have normal. Instead

14:01

of normalizing arousal which is actually created a

14:03

lot of a lot of paint swords or

14:05

or made are made them were. some pain

14:07

disorders don't have anything to do with that

14:09

but but some definitely do and one is

14:11

on the does is that to dismiss and

14:13

what we found is like if you take

14:15

couples who only ever had sex with each

14:17

other. And we controlled for

14:19

abuse of we weren't looking at, people, had abuse

14:22

in the background and the only ever had sex

14:24

with each other. Your chance of expensive Add to

14:26

this misses twenty five percent higher if you wait

14:28

for the wedding night. So.

14:30

If you have sex before marriage less that

14:32

this is now. I'm not trying to argue

14:35

that people should have sex before marriage, but

14:37

I think what is happening is that the

14:39

was he that we're doing the honeymoon. Create.

14:42

The Perfect conditions for that dismiss And

14:44

what Josh Howard Zinn is saying here

14:46

is creating the Perfect condition server to

14:49

dismiss because it's like ladies, you don't

14:51

have a choice, your autonomy is now

14:53

gone. And as soon as sexual autonomy

14:55

as gone, vastness rates increase. right?

14:58

So you think about like the average couple

15:00

who maybe they're they're planning and waiting for

15:03

marriage right? like they've they've got us into.

15:05

Had to. Wait, For marriage. But.

15:07

They don't. They. Have sex first.

15:09

Why? Right litter is a

15:11

couple has sex. When they were planning

15:13

a wedding for marriage, chances are you

15:15

know they were making out. They.

15:18

Got hot and heavy things took

15:20

over. They had sex rate so

15:22

that's actually the way the sexual

15:24

response cycle is supposed to burn.

15:27

Him that he can, you get excited,

15:29

he get aroused you don't is events

15:31

leads to orgasm etc. Like that's how

15:33

it's supposed to work. But when we

15:35

get married. If you're waiting for

15:37

marriage to have sex and you're told what

15:40

Josh Howard Stern says. Which

15:42

is that night she does what he tells her

15:44

to do, see where it's what he tells it

15:46

aware and since the either she just shows up

15:48

where he tells her to short whatever he said.

15:51

Now all of said in it's not about the

15:53

sexual response cycle, it's just about. The

15:55

act of intercourse. And

15:57

got your ear ignoring all of the.

16:00

These are that she needs to get aroused. Shut.

16:04

In the I mean again as a

16:06

therapist and even some my own experience

16:09

with In This is. There.

16:11

Have been so many couples that I

16:13

have worked with. Bad. What

16:15

happened on their wedding night? In

16:18

the arguments and the entitlement. Endless

16:20

amounts of like not knowing what

16:22

was happening and not knowing what

16:25

state you're both people wanted after

16:27

a very long exhausting day and

16:29

the may get to the hotel

16:32

at midnight or after and it's

16:34

such a petri dish for a

16:37

lot of songs and then you

16:39

have this opening act of sex,

16:41

sexual entitlement that then begins to

16:44

bees. You know, carried it

16:46

saved the trajectory of an entire marriage.

16:48

So I have worked at by several

16:50

couples that you know when we are

16:52

addressing some of the desire discrepancies when

16:55

we begin to go Ends like when

16:57

did a lot of this happen? Like

16:59

dating there is yeah people are making

17:01

out but then on that wedding night

17:04

where it became like you just need

17:06

to be available and I have waited

17:08

my entire life for this that message

17:10

than get carried out for decades in

17:13

the Lion The Marriage. So if. You're

17:15

listening to this. There's also a

17:17

sense of like, what does it

17:19

be to be able to go

17:21

back to some of these places

17:23

of entitlement and to really work

17:25

to repair the rupture that were

17:27

created at that particular point. The.

17:29

Yeah yeah you know there's and really

17:31

interesting study was kind of and on

17:34

the podcast before our or put a

17:36

link in the podcast notes to it's

17:38

the kim of University of Toronto I

17:40

think in two thousand and twenty two

17:42

so pretty pretty resets. And what they

17:44

looked at was the as fast as

17:46

orgasm on a woman's first sexual encounter

17:48

that included intercourse. So you know if

17:50

see orgasm to the first sexual encounter

17:53

her chance of having the same libido

17:55

as or current partner. In.

17:57

A was really high but as she did

17:59

not. It was quite is substantially lower.

18:01

So it's like that first sexual experience

18:03

actually does set the stage. This doesn't mean

18:06

that we can't repair so so we're

18:08

not saying that those listening but it's

18:10

always harder to repair than it is to.

18:12

Do it right the first time. So

18:15

true Giacchino era. And so.

18:18

If we can to set the stage for

18:20

like a sexist supposed to be something which.

18:22

Is good for both of you and which involves both

18:24

of you and. It doesn't have to

18:26

happen right away. If.

18:30

Will That's where I think we if we

18:32

go back to your the wedding day that

18:34

was the under self set up in what

18:36

you're supposed to wear it like I think

18:38

of all of this isn't the realm of

18:40

desire and imagination so in the same way

18:42

that you want both people contributing to a

18:44

sense of what should we were what should

18:46

we host wetsuits we have like I think

18:49

all couples can at least for a lot

18:51

of my friends. You go and to the

18:53

to the south to the restaurant before the

18:55

caterer and you're like okay do we like

18:57

this to be like chicken? Do we want

18:59

to say. A man what is his

19:01

I like, there's it like that such

19:03

as fun collaborative place to be able

19:06

to come together and sex ought to

19:08

be the same way. but you know

19:10

it when you look at a lot

19:12

of the bottles around snacks that were

19:15

initially being developed. They were always censoring

19:17

orgasm as kind of the end all

19:19

be all in a lot of the

19:22

newer models of sexual arousal. Sexual desires

19:24

are really censoring pleasure all the way

19:26

through, so it's not so much about

19:28

it. Off shoes. Orgasmic. but a sense

19:31

of like. is there pleasure at each

19:33

stage? or at least a willingness to

19:35

have pleasure. And so when you're thinking

19:37

about.in terms of sucks that really ought

19:40

to be the same type of imagination

19:42

and the same type of language that

19:44

couples are able to come together to

19:47

say know what does sound good, what

19:49

is desirable, what sounds pleasurable, and then

19:51

if it doesn't work out and it's

19:53

not as pleasurable as you bought, there

19:56

is so much freedom and liberty and

19:58

play to be able to. The

20:00

move to a different experience

20:02

but I think does that

20:04

sense of like language is

20:07

so important said desire. And

20:09

so when Josh is asking

20:11

men to essentially be silent

20:13

and comply to his wiping

20:15

out language for men. and

20:17

then. When. Dos

20:20

is asking people to not

20:22

engage language or choice or

20:25

consent or pleasure or collaboration

20:27

is creating a context that

20:29

is going to kill desire

20:32

eventually in a marriage. So

20:34

to language played desire is

20:37

so central to a good

20:39

marriage. Yeah, it absolutely

20:42

is. and I'm really

20:44

surprised. That. This is

20:46

still out there. Let I know the just

20:48

knows better like I know. That.

20:51

He's heard a lot of these critiques before

20:53

and yet he still is parenting either these

20:56

these tropes that it can get a last.

20:58

You know they get a last in

21:00

a kargus and but they're They're deeply harmful

21:02

and if is it back to what

21:04

a lot of the stuff is based on

21:06

cases, even the whole idea the have

21:08

to have sex right after you were married

21:11

it. I mean it goes back into

21:13

the nobility having to prove that you know

21:15

she's a virgin and now any children

21:17

that com are his et cetera. So you

21:19

have everybody waiting outside the door. To

21:21

see the bloodied seats right? Which

21:24

is ridiculous because so many women.

21:26

And. First of all, the you don't bleed when the hymen

21:29

break. Second of all, many women don't even have one or

21:31

they break it earlier in life. I mean, it's just a

21:33

ridiculous. Is no, yeah, it's not medically

21:35

accurate mill. That. But that

21:37

was the idea that you have as sex

21:39

right away to prove that either you are

21:42

now married at that, any children com are

21:44

from him et cetera et cetera, right? And

21:46

we've continued that and I think that as

21:48

it were touching him in my posts last

21:50

week. About whether not sex hurts the for some

21:52

a lot of the conversation around. It was women were

21:54

told you just have to get. Through it the first time.

21:57

He just have to get food assistance. Because

22:00

it's gonna hurt and the important thing is

22:02

is to get it over with. Him.

22:06

And so it's like you're you're

22:08

You're pushing yourself to achieve penetration

22:10

as opposed to it being something

22:12

organic that comes out of get

22:15

desire and play and fun. It's

22:17

just this duty that is gonna

22:19

be terrible. And then we

22:21

went to. The seventeen years later was

22:24

he has no the beat of. The. Deaths.

22:27

Yeah gathered to things within what you

22:29

just said sheila like for the first

22:32

I want to go back to about.

22:34

It. She she does know

22:36

better and you can tell that in

22:38

the in the lane or in my

22:41

club where he basically acknowledges that you

22:43

know some level of nervous laughter among

22:45

the men. So there there's a sense

22:47

of even before the set up of

22:50

like yeah you all are cheering now

22:52

but are you gonna cheer in just

22:54

a little bit so that if we

22:56

are kind of using the concept that

22:59

mind mapping we have a sense that

23:01

he has already. Baptist congregation might trt

23:03

knows that it's gonna be disconcerting. Unsettling

23:05

it and somewhat playful saw I was

23:08

call that out when you know that

23:10

you are doing something that to whether

23:12

it's in your mind to be able

23:15

to get last or more than likely

23:17

knowing that you're going to create a

23:19

level of disruption in someone's life that

23:21

is not for the purpose of edification

23:24

or strength or goodness you ought to

23:26

know better and I think that that

23:28

it one of the things that I

23:31

have thought a lot about. I think

23:33

what I read your work sea. Life

23:35

is just a sense of like a

23:37

I go back to my own seminary

23:39

days and I was enrolled to go

23:42

to a and Aca name which seminary

23:44

but a very like reform seminary on

23:46

the east coast and when I see

23:48

a lotta. Yadda! Yadda

23:51

critiques that you and your team

23:53

begin to call out and in

23:55

very brilliant it in a way

23:57

getting ways I think about myself

23:59

as. Had not gone to the

24:01

grad school I went to that

24:03

really honoured the Voice of Women

24:05

The End because I got a

24:07

sense of deconstructing a lot evangelical

24:09

as of I could see myself

24:11

going to one of these churches

24:13

are becoming a senior pastor that

24:15

with similar to you know some

24:17

of the messages that just put

24:19

and I think that's like what

24:21

we need to be able to

24:24

address as pastor, them as ministers

24:26

in as leaders and to be

24:28

able to really check ourselves. With

24:30

regards to what messages we are

24:32

bringing in to do a biopsy

24:34

on our own messages that yeah

24:36

maybe this sounds really playful but

24:38

if this goes on Addressed: what

24:40

is the implication of this Because

24:42

I think to the to the

24:44

witness of the church like this

24:46

is one of the central reasons

24:48

why people are beating the church

24:50

is because these are very under

24:52

developed and harmful messages that once

24:55

you're in it yeah maybe play

24:57

for you Sarah The Best Overall

24:59

it's a huge. Net loss with

25:01

regard to why people are leaving so

25:03

I think culture weekend biopsy and shows

25:05

them under developed aspects and some of

25:07

the leading work around sex that out

25:10

there in the world today as well

25:12

l but it's still that it is

25:14

the healthy or message than a lot

25:17

of what we find in the church

25:19

and so many gifts as a call

25:21

to a lot of the men and

25:23

pastors the must listen and is it

25:26

You really have to take your own

25:28

role seriously because these messages. End

25:30

up creating a lot of harm

25:33

and so. Yeah. For what it's

25:35

worth is one of those. Places where.

25:38

On one level I get it and

25:41

then on the other hand at I

25:43

get so furious because as a therapist

25:45

I'm dealing with the debris of these

25:47

types of messages. And

25:49

I don't think I would have changed

25:52

as much if I had not seen

25:54

this first hand in my own merits

25:56

and seamless for stand and so many

25:58

couples so it. Yeah.

26:00

We need to get this message right! Yeah,

26:03

yeah, and I see that's what that's Let's.

26:06

We turned in grade six. Risky was

26:08

to so in Asia to totally well

26:10

meaning people who both love Jesus. But

26:12

when you see these messages enough it

26:14

does harm. And and when women here

26:16

like that he was given the obligation

26:18

sex. Message that from the states like. So

26:20

blatantly or it seems to do what he says

26:23

he's a do what he was. Right

26:25

right away that there's nothing about her

26:27

autonomy at all and that that really

26:29

does kill desire. And so even if

26:31

he's a good guy who doesn't believe

26:33

the obligation sex message and even on

26:35

the honeymoon if she is not wanting

26:37

her to do stand where he wants

26:39

and were when he wants et cetera,

26:41

see his if see his still internalized

26:43

that that can affect her. And

26:46

that's we found over and over again as

26:48

these messages when women hear them from their

26:51

pastors even if they're pastors didn't mean it

26:53

like that even if the husband's didn't want

26:55

that, it affects them. And so when people

26:57

say these things like their jokes. It's.

27:00

Not okay because is being said on

27:02

top of every man's battle. the called

27:05

women methadone for their. Husband sex addict

27:07

since it's. Been said on top of love and

27:09

respect With said you know that you have to

27:11

have sex or is gonna have an affair and

27:13

that what he needs his physical release in his

27:15

to let you he give him physical release is

27:18

being said on top of sheet music that says

27:20

that your period the difficult time for your husband

27:22

and say you need to give him sexual favors

27:24

during a period so he doesn't plan the walls

27:26

like there's a context to this. And.

27:30

And it does hurt. But so other comment

27:32

on the therapist part. So what are the

27:34

things I find so funny Is that a

27:36

lot of. Many posters of

27:39

not embraced are book because we're basically

27:41

calling out their sacred their the things

27:43

that they are most. Adamant.

27:46

About teaching him or say hey that's

27:48

harmful but therapists totally has and I

27:51

think your book and my but together

27:53

unwanted will let you explain what unwanted

27:55

is. Sir unwanted

27:57

was a in it.

28:00

Have to try an offer. A

28:02

kind of referred to as of

28:04

be a media and the Latin

28:06

that's like a middle path out

28:08

of you know a lot of

28:10

the evangelical christian understanding of how

28:13

do you with unwanted sexual behaviors

28:15

like piece of for an infidelity

28:17

buying sex would be pretty much

28:19

to the less management round. This

28:21

is something that you need. They

28:23

get accountability around the something you

28:26

need internet monitoring for certainly a

28:28

lot. A methadone language. As

28:30

what's the sense that like you know

28:32

you cannot control your last and you

28:35

just need to try and manager and

28:37

suppressor. But as one of my friends

28:39

said to me when I was writing

28:41

my book he said jay When I've

28:43

been having the same conversation with my

28:45

accountability partner for fifteen years, something is

28:48

not working. So I did some research

28:50

into you're studying people's stories, their family

28:52

of origin, adverse childhood experiences and trauma

28:54

of what they were dealing with than

28:56

the president like a lack of purpose

28:59

or depression. And then we

29:01

started asking people some other specifics

29:03

of what they would put into

29:05

the internet. like noticed that they

29:07

look at porn, but what type

29:09

of porn did they go to

29:11

do And we basically found that

29:13

we could predict the types of

29:15

porn that people were going to

29:17

based on the unaddressed the man.

29:19

therefore unresolved parts with their story.

29:21

So the big enough pieces of

29:23

unwanted is that it's sexual broken.

29:25

Their sexual difficulties are not a

29:27

life sentence to sexual, same, or

29:29

addiction. Or entitlement. They are

29:32

a road map to healing and

29:34

growth. And so were trying to

29:37

really say that sexual difficulties are

29:39

not a barrier to our spiritual

29:41

formation. their one of the bus

29:44

necessary ingredients for it. And so

29:46

we try to create a very

29:49

kind and curious approach to working

29:51

with sexual difficulties. Yet we're

29:53

and analyzer to really powerful buckets on

29:55

of them once. They recommend the most

29:57

because care for gonna get to the

29:59

roots Sexual difficulties. We need to look

30:01

at why people are drawn to the

30:03

stuff in the first place. He I

30:05

just say will try harder. To.

30:08

Not use it it. It doesn't work because

30:10

there's something. Going on there. I mean I

30:12

always go back. The Romans twelve through which

30:14

says don't be conform to the patterns of

30:17

the swirled which would be you know some

30:19

of the clip that we heard earlier as

30:21

a pattern of the world. Don't be conform

30:23

to a fortified view of the world that

30:25

be transformed by the every doing of your

30:27

mind in the. The. With the

30:30

problem for most of us as Christians.

30:32

with that we cannot renew our sexual

30:34

mind because we've never been invited to

30:36

understand what's there to begin with. And

30:38

back to the message. men are just

30:41

and courage to you know, say what

30:43

they want, go after what they want

30:45

and women or just encouraged to go

30:47

along with it. but they're not developing

30:49

their own sexual mind as well. So

30:52

yes, we have to understand. The.

30:54

Of that, the stories and the dynamics

30:56

that states our sexual mind. if we're

30:59

gonna be able to transform it. Yeah.

31:01

And so I think therapists are on the

31:04

front lines here because faster say all this

31:06

stuff from the states are they give us

31:08

sucks that say this bad stuff and then

31:10

it's affecting real couples in the couple. So

31:12

up in the therapist's office in the therapist's

31:14

office is the one who has to success

31:17

and or address it anyway and as I

31:19

think that's my therapist really are. Bucks.

31:22

And you you are exactly right. And

31:24

part of the problem with regards to

31:27

even being a therapist and especially being

31:29

a pastor is the average grad school,

31:31

the average seminary. It even as a

31:34

therapist, you have had one class and

31:36

human sexuality and the entire course of

31:38

your training. So the equivalent would be

31:41

imagine going to see a cardiologist to

31:43

is only had one class. And the

31:45

human hearts you would not go to

31:48

see them. And yeah, you're exactly right.

31:50

There are so many pastors that are.

31:52

Preaching messages to which they have a

31:55

had no understanding of. They have had

31:57

no advanced training and they have maybe

31:59

take. In one class, not even

32:01

like a course that had like

32:03

a guest lecture for an hour

32:06

on a particular topic and maybe

32:08

have read one book that if

32:10

you don't probably did not score

32:12

very well according to your unless

32:14

races and again that's why I

32:16

said. To. The point that I

32:19

was making at the beginning. Like to

32:21

me this is not just about Joss,

32:23

this is about the in the wider

32:25

understanding of health of being able to

32:28

say we should not be speaking in

32:30

to Dynamics to which we have no

32:32

training and if we do want to

32:35

speak into those we said seek out

32:37

experts and Chd is and people with

32:39

advanced degrees that have an understanding to

32:41

at least consult with them. But if

32:44

you're gonna give and our message on

32:46

sex like please like. Me with

32:48

a certified sex therapists and a

32:50

Phd and and punishment theory for

32:53

like a couple hours to say

32:55

like you know, much needed rest

32:57

This together Like is this psychologically

32:59

healthy as the sexually healthy has?

33:01

I think that is that sense

33:03

of like. We have known for

33:06

generations that we are not offering

33:08

a thorough and comprehensive understanding of

33:10

sex. The people in why Why

33:12

Why do we let. This.

33:14

Go on. so in the same

33:16

way that you would not go

33:18

to a Cari cardiologist if they

33:21

had no training and understanding the

33:23

heart, we should have some healthy

33:25

leveled suspicion about listening and responding

33:27

to a pastor's sex message when

33:29

they have had no training and

33:32

likely very little therapy of their

33:34

own unable to address what's playing

33:36

out. I'm here. Sitting

33:38

in the past has to give a

33:40

huge thank you to Braces Press. Is

33:43

there book forgiveness after trauma that is

33:45

sponsoring as to sleep? You know, I

33:47

don't do sponsorships unless I really believe

33:49

in it. I've been sent a lot

33:51

of books that I just haven't been

33:53

able to hold, hardly get behind. But

33:56

I need to tell your forgiveness after

33:58

trauma. It was really changed. My

34:00

view of so much of what is

34:02

a sad and it gave me so

34:04

much peace and even.me Really excited about

34:06

this topic We we talked about this

34:08

last week on the podcast with the

34:10

authors Susanna Griffith an ipad tiny but

34:12

and on blog different aspects of forgiveness

34:14

including the lamb and he said we're

34:16

gonna look at anger and accountability soon

34:18

and what it really means to reconcile

34:21

and how it isn't what we think.

34:23

it's far more community based and so

34:25

I just really want to encourage people

34:27

to pick up the book it launched

34:29

this week. And it is a

34:31

book that deserves to do well

34:33

that needs to do well because

34:35

we've had so much bad teaching

34:37

around forgiveness that put so much

34:39

pressure on victims as opposed to

34:41

surrounding victims and really bring them

34:43

back into community and a healthy

34:45

way. And so I encourage everyone

34:47

to pick up forgive this after

34:49

trauma and the link is in

34:51

the podcast know a One of

34:53

the things that really drives me

34:55

bonkers is it. An.

34:58

Evangelical isn't? There's this idea that

35:00

because someone is a pastor, they

35:02

are thus equipped to speak on

35:04

everything. And what

35:06

we see here is the results of that. We.

35:09

See someone who is not trained and

35:12

sexuality speaking authoritatively on it in a

35:14

way they can actually do harm. And

35:16

I wanna play Eclipse So he's referring

35:18

in the clip the we heard it's

35:20

from the Sunday after the Marriage Nights

35:23

so say is just summarizing a little

35:25

bit a little. Quick. Clip and

35:27

after they sent me this I actually watched

35:29

not all of it. a fast forward through

35:31

lot of it. As complex as a to

35:33

would have our video on youtube. I played

35:35

it on like one point seven five speed.

35:37

but I do. I did what's lot of

35:39

it and I want to play another really

35:42

really. Quick clip here and just

35:44

for your reaction. So here we

35:46

go on Sale! So emotional intimacy

35:48

please seats Physical intimacy. You are

35:50

not getting her body because you

35:52

have not given her access to

35:54

your heart or access to a

35:57

heart. So you have to understand

35:59

that. And you have to

36:01

serve love, share be vulnerable, access

36:03

the heart before you get the

36:05

but it does this make sense.

36:07

Is this true? Says I need

36:09

them And and clapping. Or

36:12

it now on a space. That. That

36:14

suits. healthy right leg guys in it as

36:16

stand that you need to have access to

36:18

her hard enough to give you know her

36:21

access to your heart before you can have

36:23

access to her body and that vastly as

36:25

is healthy. But there's something

36:27

here though that at. This.

36:29

Is underlying it with his the

36:32

idea that for men, sex isn't

36:34

emotional. And

36:36

that for men, sex can be purely physical.

36:40

And I think that kind of goes

36:42

with what you were talking about the

36:44

beginning of this podcast on how so

36:46

many men are underdeveloped and they're encouraged

36:48

to be under developed. Yes

36:50

yeah it and baths but I

36:53

think that's what's that play and

36:55

a lot of this is sonos

36:57

be try unpacked to psychological frameworks

37:00

but. I. Think a really

37:02

important eager Yes So the first

37:04

would be this category of differentiation.

37:06

So differentiation. It's taken from cell

37:09

biology of it's basically like for

37:11

a cell to grow, the cells

37:13

have to differentiate and divide in

37:16

order to kind of promote the

37:18

overall growth of the organism. So

37:20

damn Siegel talks about how your

37:23

the strongest systems in the world

37:25

are those that are very differentiated

37:27

and those that are linked together.

37:30

So differentiation and. When kids are

37:32

key to if you get on an

37:34

airplane, hit us forward differentiated parts that

37:36

the ins and needs to be the

37:38

engine, the fuselage, the fuselage but don't.

37:40

Control panel needs to be bad, But

37:42

the magic of flight is not just

37:44

that these things are differentiated, it's that

37:47

they have found a way to beating

37:49

sleep come together and we see the

37:51

same thing in a symphony. Like the

37:53

strings need to be the streams bug,

37:55

percocet needs to be the Ferguson, but

37:57

the magic of a symphony as well.

38:00

Be differentiated. instruments come together

38:02

and so at. One of

38:04

the most harmful aspects of

38:06

all of these types of

38:08

teachings is that it keeps

38:10

both partners undifferentiated. It doesn't

38:13

ask them to develop their

38:15

own desires, their own pleasures,

38:17

their own distinction with the

38:19

point is not just to

38:21

become differentiated, it's also to

38:23

learn how do I become

38:25

meaningfully linked with someone and

38:27

a supportive, collaborative, consensual and

38:29

playful. Way and so a lot

38:32

of these messages cheat people undifferentiated

38:34

is it's not a D plus

38:36

the you it's a like let's

38:39

just have a type of emotional

38:41

fusion end in that emotional use

38:43

and that's where the lack of

38:46

desire really begins to implode is

38:48

that it's. The Evangelical sects

38:50

message does not promote differentiation

38:53

or meaningful linkage at all.

38:55

It goes from linkage that

38:57

it avoids the critical task

38:59

of differentiation. So. What you're saying

39:02

is like the evangelical sects messes up

39:04

me to see if and Stennis is

39:06

that he's gonna want this and sees

39:08

not and so it's like see has

39:10

none of her own desire sister's son

39:12

of being consumed by his and doing

39:14

what he wants and sell the sex

39:16

is for him but then conversely were

39:19

also saying the emotional part is for

39:21

her. That

39:23

it is the I did. It keeps

39:25

both people under am in under developed,

39:28

over developed the same way because that's

39:30

where the other does. The second thing

39:32

though is going to mention Sheila is

39:35

another concept from the Neuroscientists Dance Eagle

39:37

By yes this thing called the Window

39:39

of Tolerance and in the Window of

39:41

Tolerance is basically if you're listening to

39:44

split like imagine two parallel lines and

39:46

right in the middle between those lines

39:48

as what he called the Window of

39:51

Tolerance or the Green. Zone and

39:53

then above the top line would

39:55

be hyper arousal H Y P

39:57

E R arousal And that's awesome.

40:00

None of the red zone. And

40:02

then beneath the bottom line is

40:04

hypo arousal. So h y pl

40:06

arousal nuts known as the blues

40:08

out. So when you are in

40:10

the green zone, that is when

40:12

the self state is flexible, it's

40:14

adapted, It's created. It's playful. But

40:16

then and the red zone your

40:19

heart rate goes up. A lot

40:21

of stress, fight or flight, A

40:23

lot of arguments between couples takes

40:25

place in the red zone. Or

40:27

the blue zone is when the

40:29

self state becomes. Kind of imploded

40:31

view skill levels, depression, numbness begins to

40:33

dell then and so one of the

40:36

things that I find Austin with the

40:38

work of Been is that men have

40:40

such a small window of tolerance and

40:42

I think that this is in general

40:45

and culture but especially the evangelical men

40:47

that I work with. His when things

40:49

are going well and sex is happening

40:51

at the level that they wanted to

40:53

or and their job is working in

40:56

their kids are being should they want

40:58

them to be like when everything. Is

41:00

good. may have a very small window

41:02

tolerance to them when marriage like bricks

41:05

and and a marriage or their a

41:07

difficulty like their windows tolerance is so

41:09

so small and that's so I'm speaking

41:11

when I'm so small. Window tolerance of

41:14

saying you're under developed and so what

41:16

happened was they skyrocket into the red

41:18

zone and that's where fight and flight

41:20

are. That's where their heart rate goes

41:23

up. That's where they're at. Title Match

41:25

comes ads in. So as a man

41:27

if you only know how to bring

41:29

as. A type of regulation

41:31

to yourself through orgasm that is

41:34

going to be deeply deeply detrimental

41:36

and harmful to your marriage Because

41:39

if you have learned that you

41:41

know self soothing is not. That

41:44

I something I received from relationships or

41:46

through my own breath work or through

41:48

my own understanding of how to calm

41:50

myself down. But since adolescence you have

41:52

been using porn to be able to

41:55

bring some level of com. You're going

41:57

to bring that into your me image

41:59

that any time you don't get the

42:01

amount of sex that you why did

42:04

you feel like you deserve you're gonna

42:06

skyrocket in the that red zone. and

42:08

then you're gonna steal Barry entitled and

42:10

then you're gonna do things that. Make

42:13

you feel some what ashamed of what

42:15

you've done and then you're gonna defend

42:17

to something of that blue zone and

42:20

feel like you can make your life

42:22

where if you're gonna feel sad depressing

42:24

as gonna began to take over and

42:26

I see that dynamic over and over

42:29

again like a very small window of

42:31

tolerance setting up a spike in the

42:33

red zone and then men remain under

42:36

developed and feel pretty depressed and lonely

42:38

within their lives and they stay in

42:40

that blue zones. In. Till

42:42

they get sex until they get you

42:45

know some raise or promotion that's very

42:47

temporary that is kind of a reflected

42:49

sense of self that begins to call

42:51

them back down. So don't know if

42:54

that makes sense that that that you

42:56

had or happens over and over again.

42:59

With. Him and that I work with. And let

43:01

me elaborate on a little bit because

43:03

let this this is another aspect that

43:05

invited to sell. He has his have

43:08

men especially with the low end of

43:10

tolerance and they get into the red

43:12

zone if they don't get orgasm That

43:14

at the same time they have been

43:17

taught that my only illegitimate method of

43:19

sexual release is my wife see is

43:21

the one that God gave me to

43:23

give me sexual release. right?

43:26

And this is what Amazon Echo or it's. Actually

43:28

says Mark Driscoll called women penis homes

43:30

like like this is quite widely time

43:32

in a sense of the circles. So

43:34

you've got these guys who thank God

43:37

has given me a way to get

43:39

set for release through my wife that

43:41

is legitimate. Every other way to get

43:43

a sexual release is not proper in

43:45

Kristen in the Christened context. And so

43:47

when she isn't gives me sexual release

43:50

See is depressing. Meet see is hurting

43:52

meets even as I am her, I'm

43:54

not the one sitting because God gave

43:56

her to me for that. And

43:59

so. The becomes the one who was

44:01

actively hurting him and he becomes the victim.

44:03

So even if she is pressuring is coercing

44:06

is all of these things. He sees himself

44:08

as the victim and that's really the the

44:10

definition of entitlement and many ways as that

44:12

you see yourself as the one who was

44:14

being harmed even when you were the. One

44:17

doing the harming. Exactly.

44:19

Guts. And then that brings women

44:21

into the red zone. And man

44:23

I mean that's classic kind of

44:25

dargo stuff. But then when the

44:27

women get into the red zone

44:29

and they began to critique their

44:31

husbands for that entitlements, then the

44:33

has been then begins to get

44:35

attacked. His wife for

44:38

being outta control, not having desire.

44:41

And a may get into a

44:43

very big fight and then there's

44:45

some type of stonewalling that inevitably

44:47

emerges after that soaks messing with.

44:49

Yeah, we have to figure out

44:51

non orgasmic ways to be able

44:53

to find soothing is mostly as

44:56

men but if you don't know

44:58

how to calm your body down

45:00

like University of Michigan has done

45:02

studies where if you get outside

45:04

for twenty minutes for him as

45:06

normally they. Have done spit tests

45:08

for people before and after being

45:11

outside for twenty minutes, and the

45:13

reduction of cortisol is most significant

45:15

after twenty minutes. So that sense

45:17

of like going outside to be

45:20

able to get back into your

45:22

window tolerance is such an important

45:24

gifts, but engines yourself, but also

45:26

your marriage soaks. We have to

45:29

be able to invite men and

45:31

women to be able to find

45:33

ways to brain calm and restoration

45:35

to their bodies without. Requiring the

45:38

other person to do it and whether

45:40

it's happening emotionally or sexually, that's a

45:42

lot of that emotional fusion that is

45:44

built into a lot of evangelical marriage

45:47

teachings. Of that I can't be okay,

45:49

I can't be too. I am if

45:51

you are not there with me for

45:54

me at all times which again is

45:56

like such a beautiful. Desire

45:58

to begin with. But if. You don't

46:00

know who you are and your sense

46:02

of self become very anxious the moment

46:05

that you don't get the emotional or

46:07

sexual connection that you desire. The best

46:09

time to highlight something of like how

46:12

can I develop the South? How can

46:14

I developed a way of soothing myself

46:16

Without you know, Asking

46:18

my partner to have to come

46:20

through for me in order for

46:23

me to be okay. I think

46:25

that's that's be undifferentiated. Evangelical

46:27

sects message and emotional message that

46:29

doesn't really invite us to become

46:31

a you and a me so

46:33

that the we can come together.

46:36

And yeah it is it. It is

46:38

scary and again we've been talking mostly

46:40

about of a men that this is

46:42

really essential him into because I sexuality

46:44

is largely been killed or made dormant

46:46

or. Of or whatever

46:48

it whatever and want to use because we've

46:50

never learned desire or how to play because

46:52

with for a with had to turn us.

46:55

All the time as teenagers were told where

46:57

the gatekeepers because boys can't help themselves because

47:00

they desire is so overwhelming and so we

47:02

need to be the once. It says that

47:04

the brakes on to mixer doesn't go too

47:06

far and then were given must as light

47:09

sauces where it's assumed that see isn't going

47:11

to what. Sex. Were

47:14

to. Want sex is somehow and salmon

47:16

in and it's assumed that she's always going

47:18

to has a lower libido, inches always going

47:20

to have to be you know, coerced in

47:23

some way to have sex. And.

47:25

Either that assumption, Kansas. Kill.

47:27

A woman's libido. An

47:30

Him as a means you I get

47:32

my get. That's why I'm so grateful

47:34

for me, especially the the great Sex

47:37

rescue his main growing up. That was

47:39

the message that I inherited as well.

47:41

I'm glad the point that outside of

47:43

back earlier that idol to combat well

47:46

it's just I think about those moments

47:48

all the time of like if I

47:50

had not had people like you other

47:52

authors, professors and colleagues of mine really

47:55

begun to point out to maybe some

47:57

of the way it is that my

47:59

career. The framework for under developed

48:01

in a lot of the debris of

48:03

my own relational failures I would be

48:06

in these types of messages were I'm

48:08

just not even thinking about the implication

48:10

of how this killed desire, what obligation

48:13

sex does, or just being able to

48:15

understand that You know women are not

48:17

just you know as a lot of

48:20

the authors put out there, that they're

48:22

just they care more about being. Loved.

48:26

And not respected her. They care

48:28

about this. Like those messages seep

48:31

into almost everything that. We're

48:34

not fully aware of so one of

48:36

the studies that I came across it

48:38

in my for my next book was.

48:41

This. Researcher had essentially given people

48:44

these two word pairs so like

48:46

somebody was given the word out

48:48

further pair Ocean and Moon and

48:51

then a bunch of other word

48:53

pairs and then the researchers asked

48:55

them to say like what is

48:58

your most favorite detergents out there

49:00

and the amount of people that

49:02

responded tied lizards as after they

49:04

had heard Ocean and Moon was

49:07

like statistically significant in terms of

49:09

a higher response for a tide

49:11

detergent. But then the researchers said

49:14

why did you choose that and they're

49:16

like oh my mom had or I

49:18

think I saw it in the store

49:21

last week in so their their desires

49:23

for tied had been built up. but

49:25

they had no awareness that you know

49:28

those messages of ocean and moon that

49:30

had been given to them were actually

49:32

setting their mind and what they were

49:34

speaking to. and I think that's what's

49:37

at play with a lot of these

49:39

messages, birds were not even fully aware.

49:42

Of how messages go from a

49:44

book into a sermon into a

49:46

family system and we just hold

49:48

these things in our bodies. And

49:51

we. We think that they are

49:53

just intuitively true, that we have

49:55

no understanding of how they have

49:57

been built up in our consciousness.

50:00

And so I think you know when

50:02

it comes to earn a living a

50:04

lie the good work being done these

50:06

days. It's not just to be able

50:09

to deconstruct a harmful messages, but it's

50:11

to really build language and research in

50:13

an understanding of like how do we

50:15

developed a very healthy ways to that

50:17

When we hear these messages, something and

50:19

us I'm like wow that is not

50:22

write something about this is off instead

50:24

of it being like all men are

50:26

so different and women are so different.

50:28

That's why this is funny. It's that

50:30

now people are listening to it and

50:32

being like something is deeply asked in

50:35

this and I don't know if we

50:37

would have been there twenty thirty years

50:39

ago with messages like this. So. Now

50:42

and ala what was interesting to

50:44

about this marriage name is they

50:46

had another pastor in to give

50:48

the talk and then tosses lessons

50:50

pastor and his waist and it

50:52

up and send questions and. I.

50:55

Just saw it really problematic because the

50:58

other past it didn't have any training

51:00

and marriage either as far as I

51:02

know and they were answered questions about

51:04

abuse and their treatment of it was

51:06

was really not good. So again it's

51:08

just a please please please pastors understand

51:10

when you're out of it up. You.

51:13

Don't need to be. You know what? You're

51:15

an expert on, your expert on the bible

51:18

and theology casesa Eve are taught. You're not

51:20

an expert on mental health. You're not an

51:22

expert on sex. You're not an expert on

51:24

parenting. Just because you know theology does not

51:26

make your parenting or marriage expert and is

51:29

because you're married does not make America expert.

51:31

And I I just really wish that that

51:33

pastors doesn't feel if they had to address

51:35

everything and that congregations didn't expect their. Pastors,

51:38

To address everything. To

51:43

ever into that point, but as likely as. Into

51:47

a me I think the best. The

51:49

sense of like you as a passer.

51:51

that's part of a humility needed to

51:53

be all the sam over my skis

51:55

here. or I don't understand what's happening

51:57

here. And so I think just that

51:59

sometimes. The most deeply harmful pastors

52:01

are those that don't have don't

52:03

believe that they have a hermeneutics

52:05

of the way that they see

52:07

things and that's really that that.

52:11

Belief. That they don't have a

52:13

hermeneutics it becomes deeply harmful. In

52:15

so I think it is, that.

52:17

To such a good invitation to

52:19

pastors to be able to say

52:21

like there's so much more that

52:24

we need to know. If you

52:26

are a mega church pastor hopefully

52:28

likely there are some experts at

52:30

least and your congregation that you

52:32

could begin to brains here to

52:34

be able to speak to some

52:36

of these dynamics So Scared and

52:38

the the Jewish concept of I'm

52:40

Ned Brush which is basically. People

52:42

coming over the text talking about

52:44

it, disagreeing, trying to get a

52:46

sense of what's happening in the

52:48

tax like mid rashes built in

52:50

to really good study of scripture

52:52

acts as a that needs to

52:54

happen with you know cultural messages

52:56

and sexes but pastors need them

52:58

by a holistic team of people

53:00

around them to be able to

53:02

understand like what are the messages

53:04

that upbringing, how are these being

53:06

perceived into biopsy them To say

53:08

if we don't address this was

53:10

the implication of best. So we

53:12

need to hold pastors to a

53:14

higher standard here. Same. And

53:17

I will say thank you so

53:19

much for joining us. I know

53:21

in in May I will be

53:23

joining you for the Sexual Harassment

53:25

Conference. That he wanted tell us. Just.

53:27

As far as fourth Annual conference

53:29

call the Sexual Tesla Conference and

53:31

other thera aspire name of Adam

53:33

yelling at you have a podcast

53:36

called The Place We find Ourselves

53:38

We have been doing this Sexual

53:40

Attachment conference because. We

53:42

have really wanted people to understand

53:44

their sexual story into understand how

53:46

their family of origin, their attachment

53:49

style, their trauma impacts the way

53:51

that they were in late two

53:53

sacks and relate to their partner.

53:55

And so it's been. A really

53:57

good conference for us, but as therapist.

54:00

Seating the lot from a family

54:02

of origin perspectives and it's you

54:04

know if one of. The.

54:06

Things that we were talking about a

54:08

couple years ago is just we need

54:10

more of a cultural understanding of this.

54:12

and how does you know? Especially like

54:15

an Evangelical sects message for in late

54:17

two. All of this because it's not

54:19

just family of origin. it's not just

54:21

trauma. it's also messaging And so we

54:23

were wondering. who can we bring in

54:25

that could guide us and is immediately

54:28

your name came to mind. So yeah,

54:30

we're going to have you come in

54:32

to talk to us about. We still

54:34

need the side. Exactly what. You

54:36

didn't know his his his ass

54:39

about that. I think to something

54:41

in terms of you know how

54:43

does the evangelical messaging and obligation

54:45

really. Kill Desire keep

54:47

us under developed, lead to conflict

54:50

and title but so we want

54:52

to address your your family of

54:54

origin trauma history get you really

54:56

curious about sexual problems and your

54:59

marriage sexual difficulties that might be

55:01

there and we want to engage

55:03

those things from a non pathology

55:05

base. Few develop a lot of

55:07

curiosity but also understand how it's

55:10

not just our family of origin,

55:12

but it's also our faith of

55:14

origin that influences who we are.

55:16

So. You're. Only

55:18

come and help lead us. And that is

55:20

the addresses advocates. I'll put links to where

55:23

you can sign up for that conference as

55:25

well as we can find Day on Instagram

55:27

and his but unwanted and his web sites.

55:29

I'll put links to all of us, the

55:31

podcast notes and take you so much for

55:33

joining us. I really appreciate it. Gets.

55:35

So good to be with you soon! So.

55:38

Glad they could join us and I really

55:40

appreciate his book and wanted seriously it's it's

55:43

one of the healthiest books talking about foreign

55:45

that I have sound so please check out

55:47

that it's in the link in the podcast

55:49

notes. Also, if you or someone that you

55:52

know is about to get married, please. Don't.

55:54

The Woods as Howard Zinn as nice as said.

55:56

free to do and let's let's start merits and

55:59

a healthy weight. Prefix as

56:01

long term where you will feel seen and

56:03

heard and known and you'll have autonomy. but

56:05

you'll also experience. Plus are we to have

56:07

our honeymoon course. They can help with that.

56:10

you can gift it to other people to

56:12

that you know who are getting married and

56:14

are books. The Good Girls guide to Great

56:16

Sex and the Good Guys guide to Great

56:19

Sex to explain the sexual response cycle and

56:21

just how the start. Well so check those

56:23

out and let's not let. This.

56:25

Married is that so many still still

56:27

spread? Let's not that see the sort

56:30

of even so concerts list of and

56:32

we can do better People we can

56:34

do better. Thanks for joining us and

56:36

I'll see you next thing. On the camera,

56:39

But I.