0:02

What's riddled

0:04

with gna rhea? My Sophie?

0:07

How do I finish this? I don't want to know? Well,

0:10

that is slightly applicable for today. Oh

0:13

good, okay, Well, this is Behind the Bastards the

0:15

podcast with a slightly applicable introduction

0:17

for the first time in quite a while. I'm

0:19

Robert Evans, your host normally,

0:22

but not today because today my buddy

0:24

Garrison is here.

0:26

Garrison has a very

0:29

special story. I really don't know what to expect here.

0:31

Should I start by giving the background? Um?

0:33

Yeah, yeah. Ever since

0:35

I've known Robert Roberts, Roberts had

0:37

a dream. Um

0:40

uh when yeah, Robert? What is

0:44

so? For a little bit of background on me, I spent

0:46

a lot of time living in the middle of nowhere in the mountains,

0:48

and I developed a love for cooking food

0:50

in pits buried under the ground. You like, you

0:52

wrap up a bunch of meat, like a turkey,

0:54

stuffed with stuff, and you wrap it in the foil and you bury

0:57

it and you build a fire around and you cook it over the

0:59

course of like a day while you're drinking heavily. It's

1:01

a great time way to like make a turkey.

1:03

Um, I do it? Around the holidays a couple of times

1:05

a year when I have the opportunity. And several

1:08

years ago I had a dream

1:10

and I saw a vision of

1:12

a horse stuffed with eels and

1:15

cooked underground in a pit fire. And

1:17

I've never been able to get it out of my head. I am still

1:19

working on. I was briefly

1:21

in contact with someone who thought they could get me one last

1:23

year, and I fucked that up because my mom

1:25

got cancer and I wound up like, I

1:27

don't know, just not being great at correspondence

1:29

for a while. You sucked

1:32

it up. If

1:34

you're that person, hit me up again, because

1:36

I still want the horse. But my dream

1:38

is to get a horse that has been obviously

1:41

gutted. Stuff it full of eels.

1:43

Lamb prais are acceptable. That's a kind of eel. Any

1:45

kind of eel will be fine. Um Stuff

1:47

it full of eels. Wrap the fucker up in

1:49

either foil or maybe even like banana leafs if we

1:51

want to do it like really, you know, pro um

1:54

or burlap or something, and then bury

1:57

it, you know, a food not

2:00

a foot underground, Like just bury it to where it's at like

2:02

ground level, cover it in dirt, and keep

2:04

a big circular fire going around it for probably

2:06

like twenty hours. I'm guessing that's

2:08

how seriously listeners

2:10

could see Gary's faith right now, what

2:14

is it? Oh sorry, my cameras on you.

2:16

What does Garrison look like? Just an

2:18

absolute smirk

2:23

anyway, this has been my dream for some

2:25

time. Yeah, you you constantly talk about

2:27

it. It's it's all I want out of out of

2:30

the world. Yeah, in

2:32

that for me today, Garrison, well kind

2:34

of we'll see,

2:36

so a little taste of my own medicine.

2:38

So yeah, Well,

2:41

one night I was doing an extremely hardcore

2:43

gaming session with with a friend

2:45

of mine and for some reason, eel

2:47

horse came up because just Robert

2:50

talks about it all the time. So for some reason this

2:52

idea of eel horse came up

2:54

over the course of our very intense gaming session.

2:57

Um and, so my friend

2:59

had had the bravery to put the words eel

3:01

and horse into Google um and

3:03

and that led us down a pretty nightmaresh rabbit

3:06

hole that I knew that

3:08

I do had to become a bastard's episode, which

3:11

leads us to now our our our discussion

3:13

of the real life heel horse and and the

3:15

eel wielding bastards of

3:17

today. So I'm very excited.

3:20

Yeah. So we're gonna start off by going way

3:23

back to the late medieval period

3:25

in England, good time and

3:28

the bustling business of selling horses.

3:31

So let's let's say you're

3:33

an old timey horse salesman. You got

3:35

yourself some horses that you want to sell. But the problem

3:38

get sixteen apples to the league. Yeah,

3:40

but the problem is that some of your horses are

3:43

getting a bit old, you know, a little sluggish.

3:45

They're not as lively as they used to be in

3:47

their youth. That's what happens

3:49

to horses already

3:52

laughing, they know this is going. So

3:55

you're thinking, like, what what could I do to

3:57

make these horses a bit more spry and lively?

3:59

And and then very similar to very

4:01

similar to your vision. Um, what

4:04

I'm guessing happen is like basically you're thinking what

4:06

can I do? And then God comes down to you from

4:08

the clouds and says, my, my child, My

4:10

my horse salesman, child, have you

4:12

considered putting a live eel up

4:14

the horses butt? Oh my God? Yes?

4:20

Wait what you reply to God? How

4:22

how will that solve my problem? And then then God,

4:24

in his divine wisdom speaks to you from the heavens

4:26

and says, well, a live eel inserted

4:29

up the horses anist might stimulate the horse and

4:31

make it appear to be younger and in its more

4:33

active years, thus fetching a higher

4:35

price for your inactuality older horses.

4:38

You are telling me, Garrison, that shoving

4:40

a live eel up the ass of an aging

4:42

horse was the old timy equivalent of like

4:45

turning back the the odometer on

4:47

a car. Oh yeah, baby, that

4:51

fucking rules. So so upon

4:54

comprehending your godly enlightenment, you you thank

4:56

the Lord for gifting you a piece of his everlasting

4:59

wisdom in your your divine vision. Oh

5:01

Father in Heaven, I, your humble servant, am

5:03

internally grateful for your You're you're blessing

5:06

me with this prosperous inspiration. I'll go forth

5:08

and place as many eels up the rect of

5:10

elder horses, just as you say, and

5:12

i shall spread this gospel of eel horse to the

5:14

other horse sellers, so we may all share

5:16

in your holy riches. And I'm pretty sure

5:18

that's how it went, because throughout the fifteen

5:21

hundreds, possibly earlier, it's it's

5:23

unclear when this started, but it definitely

5:25

was. It was very popular throughout the fifteen

5:27

hundreds and early eighteen hundreds.

5:30

That's amazing. Yeah, so inswering

5:32

live life yels up the back into horses, that

5:35

the horses that were past their prime to make them

5:37

appear more like frisky and young. Because

5:40

that's the phrase

5:43

that keeps coming up, is that when when when

5:45

when? When they were looking to buy horses, a

5:47

good sign of a horse was that it carries its

5:50

tail well. Means the tail is like

5:52

upright and like almost erect. Is that it's very

5:54

fluffy. And the same people

5:56

sure, well furries at least furries.

5:59

Yeah, so and and and the eel

6:01

thing very much. The

6:04

phrase that they kept using was like putting

6:06

the eel up helps keep the tail

6:08

held well because because

6:11

the horse I am, I'm just

6:13

imagining generations of like

6:16

marks buying women horses and

6:18

like, god damn it, the eel this one

6:20

too. That's that is exactly what happened.

6:22

You gotta check the asshole, Mitch. I telled

6:24

you that never buy a used horse without

6:26

check in the asshole. So yeah, so yeah,

6:29

in certain lit deals on the back ends of horses past their

6:31

prime, was very common to make them appear more frisky

6:33

and young, you know, and happen

6:36

to eel. I mean, whatever

6:38

eels were available in England. It's it's it's

6:42

it's hard. It's hard to say because there's not

6:44

extremely thrown documentation of this. Most

6:47

of the documentation comes from comes from dictionaries

6:50

and literary references. So you hear

6:52

this like appearing in like poems and stories

6:54

and be like describing what selling horses

6:56

was like. Um and

6:59

definitely. So there's two kinds of eels in the UK,

7:01

silver and conjure. It's not

7:03

a conjure eel. Look up the

7:05

conjure eel look decisive

7:07

this thing. I

7:10

mean, I'm not sure like the size of horses,

7:14

Oh my god, yeah,

7:18

no, it's

7:20

not a conjural. It's not an alligator.

7:24

That's that is that is

7:26

discomfitingly large, that's set

7:28

in how big that eel is?

7:30

That that is generally pro

7:32

eel, but that is toom Okay, it's probably a

7:34

silver eel. Looks more manageable. So I'm

7:37

guessing it's a silver eel. So yeah, you could

7:39

fit one of those up a horses, ass, no problem.

7:42

What happened right up an

7:44

asshole, just say

7:46

this was not what I thought was

7:48

going to be happening today. I

7:50

couldn't I couldn't be happier. So

7:54

so yeah, Often what what happened would be when

7:56

when people would come into the show room to see

7:58

the horses like this table, boys would

8:00

be like would shove the eels up there really quickly. Green

8:03

people were coming to visit. Um

8:12

sou so

8:15

there is there is, there is a

8:17

word for this. The process was called

8:19

feeding or to feed a horse.

8:22

Um Jesus Christ. We find we find reference

8:24

to this process in in the excellent Classical

8:27

Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue. Um.

8:29

There in a few copies of

8:31

this have have feging. I'm going to read

8:33

from one from

8:36

it says, to feed is to put a live eel

8:38

up the horses fundament, to make him

8:40

lively and carry his tail. Well. Um.

8:44

The author goes on to note that the practice was so widespread

8:47

that quote it is it is

8:49

said a forfeit is incurred by any

8:51

horse dealer's servant who shall shoot

8:53

a horse without feeding him first. So

8:56

pretty good, pretty

8:58

good stuff. Credible. Um. Okay,

9:01

you know I make a lot of jokes about

9:03

the war against the horses. But like it's

9:05

hard to name an animal that's taken more

9:08

hits for the team, the team being humanity

9:10

than the horse. Like the horse we have we

9:12

have fucked them over for so Like

9:15

dogs were like, yeah, you want to be best friends

9:17

and like hunt together and hang out and we'll

9:19

give you food. With horses are like you

9:21

know what machine guns are here about to

9:23

learn it's

9:25

your job to run towards them. Yeah,

9:28

horses, horses have taken decent, decent amount

9:30

of abuse. Um, we've really uh yeah, I

9:32

didn't know that this had happened, but yeah,

9:35

speaking What's what's really fun

9:37

is that you can find a good number of references to this phenomenon

9:39

in literary writing from the time um.

9:42

In sixteen sixteen, there was a book

9:45

of poems published by the then late

9:47

poet Thomas Overbury and

9:49

included an array of poetic character character

9:52

sketches of like unsavory types of

9:54

people written by various anonymous authors.

9:57

On one of these poems, excellent

10:00

details the character. One

10:04

of these poems details the characteristics of an

10:07

uh an errand horse courser Um

10:10

and noted that, among other unsavory

10:13

habits, the man knows how to cover

10:15

up diseases and defects of all sorts.

10:17

For pounding his horses ars

10:20

with quicksilver and giving him suppositories

10:22

of live eels. He's an expert,

10:24

pretty, referring

10:27

to putting a live eel up an ass as

10:29

a suppository, suppository of live

10:31

els. Yeah, that that is incredible.

10:33

That is amazing, he Harrison.

10:35

I'm very proud of you. He is expert

10:38

expert at an

10:41

errand horse courser. Oh man,

10:44

um man, maybe this is how I prepare

10:46

the eel horse, starting at

10:48

while the horse was alive. No, I wouldn't do

10:50

that. I wouldn't do that. You realize that

10:52

they're supposed to be bad guys,

10:55

right like the like they're

10:57

the use they're literally the used cars salesman

11:00

of the medieval period. Yes,

11:03

and they're shoving sho come

11:07

down to Slick Joe's Discounter horse

11:09

depot. Absolutely no wheels up their

11:11

assholes. A

11:14

young John Milton mentioned figging

11:17

in incredible in a sixteen

11:20

Latin poem while mocking his fellow

11:22

Cambridge students. Um He described a

11:25

certain Irish bird as quote

11:27

more useful to grooms because they're by nature

11:30

lively and brisk and prancing and

11:32

if they were forced into the anus of a scriggly

11:34

horse, they would make them livelier and quicker than

11:37

had ten than if they had

11:39

ten live wheels of their bellies. Wow,

11:42

Garrison, I want to congratulate you here

11:44

because for years, Sophie will back me

11:46

up on this. I have been trying to

11:48

work in paradise. Lost connections

11:51

to behind the bastards hasn't happened yet.

11:53

We just don't go far back enough. But you finally

11:55

brought old J. Milt into it and

11:59

roll the

12:03

West of sixteen. Yeah,

12:07

yeah, yeah, that's what everyone says the

12:09

Humors. The humors poet Edward Award

12:12

in his seventeen hundred uh

12:15

a Song upon Dancing, wrote that dancers

12:17

skip with a nimble force as eels

12:20

as the belly of a horse, which jockeys use each

12:22

each market day to make him dance. As people

12:25

say, So that's nice. Um,

12:27

actually, yeah, he had. He had a decent

12:30

little thing going. So yeah. Unfortunate

12:32

or unfortunately depending on the perspective. But by

12:35

the late seventeen hundreds and early eighteen

12:37

hundreds, the eel anal insertion

12:39

had begun to fall out of fashion. Um

12:42

as horse salesman realized

12:45

probably again via divine revelation

12:47

from the Lord, that the same effect, or at least

12:49

a similar effect, could be achieved by instead

12:51

inserting a piece of spicy ginger up

12:54

the horses urs um. And

12:56

this is apparently still an issue at horse shows

12:58

that people have to like enforce stop

13:01

people from shoving ginger ginger up the butt

13:03

of horses to make Yeah,

13:05

this is still like an ongoing problem that needs

13:08

like enforcement of bus shows. Yeah,

13:10

yeah, the ginger police. Yeah.

13:12

But that means though, if you if you went back to

13:14

shoven eels up their asses, nobody would catch it. They're

13:17

not still checking for eel. I'm just telling

13:19

you, if you want to cheat at having nice

13:21

horses eels, that's wide open,

13:23

baby. Yeah, try an electric

13:25

one. Maybe that's how I'll cook it, Garrison,

13:28

I don't think so. Okay,

13:30

well we'll talk about it. Yeah, but

13:32

we we still do actually have the

13:35

the modern phrase to ginger up or

13:37

do we spice upper horse? This comes

13:39

from feging. I've never heard

13:41

of that phrase, but I'll trust you it's it's it's it's

13:44

it's a phrase. Um and

13:46

and this is this is also where

13:48

we get to the modern B D

13:50

S M practice called figging again

13:53

driving from the feeding where but

13:55

but figging is usually a butt plug

13:57

made of ginger placed up someone sanis um

14:00

and this this we will circle back

14:02

to this at the end, um, because this

14:05

will help us explain a

14:07

modern modern eel issue we have.

14:10

Um. Yes, modern eel issues are very

14:12

serious. Yeah, speaking of eel shoes.

14:14

Eel shoes speak. Speaking of eel shoes. Uh,

14:16

do you know who else wants you to buy live

14:19

eels to stick up the butts of horses?

14:21

Oh gosh, I mean jesus um

14:26

our friends at Uh, I

14:29

don't know one of the food we call

14:31

it. We call it stimulations. Yeah,

14:33

stimulations people who make those fucking uh those

14:36

uh those with with with

14:38

uh all

14:40

of ours, Oh my gosh,

14:45

obviously they are all huge fans

14:47

of cheven eels and assholes. In

14:49

fact, that's the only requirement we have of our sponsors.

14:52

Have you put an eel in some things, but

14:54

doesn't have to be a horse, and in fact, oftentimes

14:56

it's a completely different species. Um.

14:58

We like it when they get created of and that's the behind

15:01

the bastards guarantee We're

15:09

back all right, Garrison, I'm I'm

15:11

ready so

15:13

so yeah, so the first

15:16

bastards of today are the fourteen through seventeenth

15:18

century horse salesman. Um.

15:21

But unfortunate, unfortunately,

15:23

we still have some time left in this episode. As you

15:25

can tell, um, and

15:27

and and once me and my friends started googling

15:30

eel and anus, this let us down

15:32

a dark rabbit hole that forever scared my mind.

15:34

Um, yeah, I can see how that would go to some

15:36

bad places. Actually, unfortunately,

15:38

we're going to be briefly moving away

15:41

from horses and towards another

15:44

h species called humans, which

15:47

which which which leads us to probably the darkest,

15:49

most evil segment today's episode, The

15:52

Phoenix Program. Oh, that

15:55

sounds like a good thing to be involved in assholes

15:58

being filled with. So the

16:00

Phoenix Program was the rutal counterinsurgency program

16:02

started in nineteen sixty

16:04

eight and run by William Colby

16:06

later ahead of the CIA. It was aimed at reading

16:09

out Viet Cong or anyone deemed

16:11

Vietcong sympathizers. The Viet

16:13

Cong was anybody that

16:15

we happened to bomb. Um.

16:18

Yeah, so weading out anyone deemed Vietcong sympathizers

16:20

by identification and neutralization.

16:24

Uh. With with the with the methodology

16:26

of infiltration, capture, terrorism,

16:28

torture, and assassination. The

16:30

Phoenix program was designed, coordinated,

16:32

and executed primarily by the CIA,

16:34

with some help by the United States Special Operations

16:37

Forces during the war in Vietnam.

16:39

Versions of the program we're kind of an operation

16:41

between sixty between nineteen

16:44

sixty five and nineteen sixty and

16:46

nineteen seventy two. But but the

16:48

official program and an official body

16:50

count begun in sixty eight UM,

16:52

and similar programs existed both before

16:55

and after that period. UM.

16:57

But you know, for the official Phoenix program, it

17:00

starts and starts in eight goes

17:02

to seventy two UM. By

17:05

two Phoenix operatives had to quote unquote neutralized

17:08

at least any one thousand

17:11

and six d forty people UM

17:13

suspected of being operatives or sympathizers

17:15

of the Vietcong UM, at least

17:17

twenty six thousand, of whom were officially killed,

17:20

but South Vietnamese officials estimate over

17:22

forty thousand were killed. UM

17:25

Military intelligence officer K. Milton

17:27

Osborne witnessed the wrote

17:30

a book about his time there, and witnessed

17:32

the following forms of torture UM,

17:34

including the use of

17:36

of inserting a six inch dowel into

17:39

the cavity of a detainees ears

17:41

and tapping, tapping the dowel through the brain

17:43

until the person dies. Uh, a

17:47

lot of a lot of starvation to death

17:49

inside a cage um

17:52

and other and I'm going to read a quote now.

17:54

Other methods of torture used in the interrogation

17:56

centers include rape, gang rape, rape

17:58

using hard objects, rape followed by murder,

18:00

electric shock by attaching wires to the genitals,

18:03

and rape using eels and snakes.

18:06

Um, so this is this is

18:08

like the most fucking evil humanity

18:10

can do. Like the Phoenix program is like is

18:13

like up there and like the most like evil.

18:17

No, yeah, it's that's on

18:19

the same level. It's like the most bastard

18:21

you can be. Like all like the horrific

18:23

abuses done in the Phoenix program

18:25

by the American government. And there

18:27

was there was assistance from the South Vietnamians government,

18:30

assistance from Australia, but

18:32

it was mostly the American government. Um it is

18:34

it is like the most possibly evil thing

18:37

if you like about the Phoenix program in detail.

18:39

That's the highest it. Well, we'll do a we'll

18:41

do a whole thing. No, yeah, they deserve their own like

18:44

Series one

18:46

there after the nine part Kissinger

18:48

series, like William Colby and the

18:50

CIA in the Vietnam

18:53

War. It's that they're like, it's extremely, extremely

18:55

fucking nightmare. I mean it's like it's

18:58

like people talk rightly

19:00

about um u UM,

19:02

which was a Japanese

19:05

military detachment that did like biological

19:07

and chemical warfare research that involved some

19:10

of the worst stories of like torture,

19:13

um and experiment like like and like

19:15

Dr Mangela, And we talk about

19:17

these as if like these are unique horrors

19:20

of like fascist countries. Um. I guess

19:22

you could say they're unique cars of fascist countries because

19:24

certainly, within the context of our policies

19:26

in Vietnam, the United States was doing some fashion

19:28

as hell ship. Um. But

19:31

like the ship that US that the

19:33

CIA pulled in Vietnam, is

19:35

that same level, like that exact same level.

19:37

It is not. It is not devaluing

19:40

the horrors of the Holocaust or of the Japanese

19:43

war crimes in Manchuria to put

19:46

this kind of ship. I mean, they're raping people with

19:48

eels until they die, until

19:51

raping people to death with eels, Like what what

19:53

do you? Yeah, I was I

19:55

was aware of this sort of thing mainly

19:58

with snakes and stuff. But yeah, out

20:00

after some of the details of the abuses like

20:02

this less than the Horse, No,

20:05

yeah, this is this is this is definitely less fun.

20:08

So after some of the details of the horrific abuses

20:10

by the CIA and Army that was carried on in Vietnam,

20:12

as they slowly came to light in the early seventies,

20:15

the program was officially shut down

20:17

under public pressure, but in actuality

20:19

it just it just continued under

20:21

a different name um. And some of the control

20:23

of the program was handed to the South Vietnam government.

20:26

UM. And yeah, it's it's kind of hard to pivot away

20:28

from something that's dark, UM. But

20:30

I'm going to think of it as a way to help kind of wash

20:33

down the human filth that we just discussed. UM.

20:35

Because because now we we are gonna we are going to

20:37

discuss the the modern eel

20:40

anus problem. UM.

20:42

And now this this is I'm glad we're getting

20:45

We're getting up to the modern day exiting. So

20:47

this this is, this is a thing with multiple facets,

20:50

um, and a sizeable portion of which is

20:52

an extension of the figging figging

20:54

connection. And Christ,

20:57

well, good, actually this is good. I would of

21:00

that, it goes back to the horses. Yeah, so

21:02

thank god. April in

21:05

the Guangdong Province of China, a destructively

21:08

horny, a single, thirty nine year old

21:10

man was watching cat was watching

21:12

Everything's Coming together for this story, was

21:15

watching an eel figging porn, and

21:17

he had the uncontrollable urge to try

21:19

it himself. Wait, wait, watching he was

21:21

watching an eel thinking porn. So but

21:23

here's this, I think you said eighteen thirteen.

21:25

No, this is two us and thirteen two thirteen

21:28

miss heard watching porn.

21:32

Okay, yeah to us and thirteen. Horribly

21:35

horny old man was watching

21:37

an eel thinking porn, and he the uncontrollable

21:40

to try himself. I

21:42

see fin researching this episode, I've

21:44

seen about every video of eel's going into

21:46

bodies on the internet. Yeah, okay,

21:50

it's a watch. We should watch Zoo together,

21:52

Garrison. Um. Anyway,

21:54

so he tried himself, and he

21:57

tried to just he tried to grab. He tried to keep

22:00

holding the eel for the duration of the of the period,

22:02

but he lost probably a good idea, but

22:05

he lost grip of the slippery little fucker. See

22:08

that's that's that's rookie ship. You

22:10

gotta get you gotta get a get a get

22:12

a get a like rope around that and

22:14

it's it swam all the way up there, and

22:17

that's gonna happen. After fail attempts

22:19

to remove the eel, the man went to the emergency room for

22:21

medical assistance. Um, and he told

22:24

the presumably confused medics, please

22:26

please help me. The eel is moving through my

22:28

body. UM. Imagine

22:32

that's just your fucking day, right, Like you're

22:34

six hours into a shift, you're getting ready

22:37

to go home, you're tired, you've already

22:39

seen some ship. And the kid's like, there's

22:41

an eel moving inside of

22:43

me for undetermined reasons, and

22:45

like that's the rest of your fucking night.

22:48

Yep. So, the twitter centimeter long

22:50

eel tuted the way through the man's colon, up

22:53

perforated his large intestine, and became stuck

22:55

in the body cavity. The medical

22:57

team that treated the man reportedly said to the eel,

23:00

which we made about a pound, was quote simply

23:02

trying to find its way out, and

23:05

their fair play by the eel anything,

23:08

None of the none of the things we're talking about

23:10

today is the eel's fault. None of these.

23:13

None of what we're talking about today is to

23:15

say that nothing has ever been in eel's fault

23:17

because their eel. No, it

23:20

is this is just on us, totally

23:23

on us. UM. The medical team said

23:25

the eel was still alive when we got it

23:27

out, but it died soon afterwards, which

23:29

was probably a mercy. So yeah, I

23:32

have I have read, um every single

23:34

story of eel's going up people's butts such

23:36

you can find on the internet. UM, and a

23:39

decent amount of these instants track I

23:41

think the decent amount of them do track back to getting

23:43

the idea from porn um.

23:46

But but that is far from the only cause

23:48

of eel anal penetration, because

23:52

that would be unreasonable. Yeah. So three

23:55

years prior back in a

23:58

fifty nine year old chef from

24:01

the z from the Zegong city

24:03

of China went to the hospital complaining

24:06

of abdominable pain, dehydration,

24:09

and a great deal of anal bleeding and

24:11

he truly did not know what was going on. He

24:13

actually had no idea. UM. So

24:16

doctors also had no idea what was the cause of this, and

24:18

they resorted to cutting open his inerts,

24:21

in which they discovered a fifty

24:23

centimeter long Asian swamp eel lodged

24:26

in his rectum. It was already it

24:28

was already dead, but the eel

24:30

had apparently already reaked havoc through the inside

24:33

of his body, biting the way through his intestines

24:35

prior to dying. Internal bleeding

24:37

and infection rapidly set in. The man was hospital's

24:43

large. So that's that's slightly

24:45

too big to get in a horse's asshole. As a lot

24:47

of it's there's

24:50

so I've not included pictures in the script

24:52

here, but basically every for

24:54

every story from the Chinese

24:57

hospitals, the Chinese hospitals popload

24:59

all all of these pictures. It is kind of still it

25:02

is absurd how many pictures of

25:04

and like videos of these procedures they upload

25:06

themselves, like entire videos

25:08

of them surgically doing this. It's

25:10

it's pretty, It's pretty. It's pretty night maerish. Um.

25:13

So, yeah, the man was hospitalized for ten days, but he

25:15

eventually died. Um. So

25:18

this this, this, this, this did kill him.

25:21

Yeah, that sounds about right. Again,

25:23

we should watch Zoo afterwards.

25:26

The probable cause was actually

25:28

established, so the chef had been

25:30

drinking with friends and he had passed out

25:33

his his friends that decided it would be and

25:37

they decided it would be amusing prank

25:39

to insert a live eel up his anist

25:41

while he was comatosed, and not to tell

25:44

him. Oh my god. I mean,

25:46

look, I've done some things I would regret while drinking,

25:49

but I have always informed people when

25:51

I've put a live eel inside them. That's

25:54

we have. We have a friend who falls asleep often

25:57

while watching movies, and we sometimes we still messed

25:59

with them. But I think things

26:01

on their head all sorts of But I think I

26:03

think this is too far. Honestly, would they would

26:06

say killing them via an eel eating

26:08

their internal organs is taking I think

26:10

it's too much. I think it's too much. I'm I'm

26:12

all for committing to the bit, but

26:14

honestly, I think this is too far. I think it's

26:16

it's too much. You know what, you know where

26:18

I think they went wrong is when they were shoving a

26:20

live animal up their friends asshole as

26:23

the person was asleep. Yeah, I think maybe

26:25

that was I think that was an issue. Yeah,

26:28

So this is one of the few instances

26:31

that is like totally not this person's

26:33

fault. Um and his

26:35

his his friends. I think we're we're investigated and prosecuted

26:38

by by whatever authorities anyway.

26:41

Um. But before we get to like the big kicker,

26:43

Um, there is some other general kind of

26:45

eel news worth mentioning um

26:48

to us. In twelve AMN in New Zealand, gun neil

26:50

removed via surgery after the slippery fucker got

26:52

stuck up as rectum. It wasn't officially

26:55

revealed how or why it got up

26:57

there, so that is that is left to

26:59

us to aside. Um. But the

27:01

unique aspect of this story is that thirty

27:03

three hospital staff all got in trouble for sharing

27:06

X ray photos of the eel and licking

27:08

the story to the media. Um. Because

27:10

interesting, because that's kind of shitty.

27:12

It's it's it's totally it's it's totally

27:15

different. In China and China they also

27:17

gets uploaded. Um. But in

27:19

New Zealand, the hospital got mad that

27:22

the employees were leaking pictures

27:25

of this incident. Um, Yeah, that's

27:27

kind of mean. The next person who gets an eel stuck up

27:29

their asshole and go to the doctor to see that is

27:31

the thing which although I will say, if you're

27:33

the kind of person who tortures

27:35

a live animal to get off. I don't really

27:38

care if you get medical treatment. Yeah,

27:42

not really. Um. Oh and into

27:44

US In fourteen, a Brazilian man had emergency

27:46

surgery to remove an eel from his backside. Again,

27:49

the the exact reasoning it being unknown,

27:52

but I'm pretty sure about these incidents are related

27:54

to kink stuff. UM. And

27:57

we're gonna we're gonna discuss this more towards the and

28:00

because there is there is one other

28:02

reason people people claim for

28:05

for once they go to the doctor, how they

28:07

explain why an eel is up there butt? So on

28:10

on onto the main eel an epidemic.

28:13

So this this starts in two US three,

28:15

actually is the first instance I can find this UM

28:18

specifically in like in like our our modern documentation.

28:21

UM. I'm going to read directly from the

28:23

hospital report. Now this this is somewhere in China. I'm

28:26

not quite sure what where, because the report doesn't

28:28

specify exactly UM. And there

28:30

there isn't any other reporting of this incident besides

28:33

this one hospital report. So it's just it's just this

28:35

hospital report anyway. UM. Fifty

28:37

year old man was seeing at the Excident and Emergency

28:39

department because of abdominable pain. The

28:42

physical examination revealed redness and swelling

28:44

around the tissue around the abdomen. A shadow

28:46

of an eel was noticed on the

28:49

ubdominable radiograph. Upon

28:51

further questioning, the patient admitted

28:53

that and eo is insterted into the rectum in

28:55

an attempt to relieve constipation.

28:58

I mean on a moral level, that's I guess better

29:00

than putting an el up r ask for sexual gratification.

29:05

Why would you think if it's

29:08

true? Um? Anyway, UM

29:11

emergency laparotomy found

29:13

that the fifty centimeter long eel was

29:15

biting the splenic flexure of the colon.

29:18

Multiple perforations were found around the walls

29:20

of the rectum, and the post operative,

29:22

of course, was uneventful. That the patient

29:24

patient was discharged from onto

29:27

home on like day seven. So

29:30

this appears to be the most claimed reason given by

29:32

people found who have an eel up there? Butt

29:34

on on why said eel is up there?

29:37

Butt uh? They they most

29:39

often claim constant pation um.

29:41

And there has been an

29:45

a decent uptick in

29:47

reported incidents of eel up

29:49

the anus uh to cure constellation

29:52

since twenty seventeen. UM.

29:55

In April April seventeen,

29:58

forty nine year old factory worker from

30:00

the capital of South China's Going Dong province

30:02

was rushed to the hospital complaining of constipation

30:04

and a stomach ache. Um. Upon

30:07

the doctor's opening up the man's stomach to discover both

30:09

feces and a foot and a half long

30:11

eel, the man claimed, it's swim

30:13

up. The man claimed

30:15

it's time up there by itself. Okay, so

30:18

I'm gonna I got a couple of notes. Um.

30:21

He suffered. He suffered from a puncture,

30:23

pancreas um and uh.

30:27

According to the doctors, the eel managed to break

30:29

through the man's intestines and generated a mess

30:31

in the man's stomach, almost killing him.

30:36

Yeah so the man later,

30:39

according to the doctors. The man later gave more

30:41

details post operation, quoting

30:43

said doctors, but he later admitted

30:45

that he put he put it up there himself,

30:48

following a quote folk remedy for

30:50

bowel obstruction, as a medical

30:52

expert of the doctor noted that there was no scientific basis

30:55

for such a treatment involving live eels.

30:58

Yeah, well, I okay, so do

31:01

you know how to cancel an Amazon order? Because

31:03

I just had I was just just

31:05

trying to rush a shipment of eels to my house.

31:07

But I guess I don't need them. Now, you can cancel. You

31:10

go to the order's page. Usually there

31:12

we go. Yeah. So, yeah, the

31:14

man survived this. It

31:17

was unclear what happened to the eel, so probably

31:19

not not a great story. Yeah, um,

31:21

would you want to live after that? Though? No?

31:24

No? Um? So apparently what happened

31:27

Upon further interviewing uh

31:30

the he said that he

31:33

went to his friends for medical advice and

31:35

they told him about a quote folklore

31:38

method of curing constipation

31:40

which involved a live eel to help smooth

31:42

bowel movement. So he found

31:44

he found a Asian swamp ill

31:47

and after the deed had been done, he had

31:49

he got him into the hospital if he started experiencing

31:51

unbearable stomach aches. So and

31:55

what what's what's really upsetting that? This is by knowing me the

31:57

an isolated incident. Next next time

31:59

we're talking about is September. Again,

32:02

reading from a hospital report, calonic

32:05

perforation is a common presentation

32:07

at the urgency department. However, foreign

32:10

body related perforation is responsible

32:13

for less than one percent of these cases. Here we

32:15

describe the case of calonic perforation

32:18

secondary to the self introduction

32:20

of an eel into the anus. A

32:23

fifty four year old, previously healthy email presented

32:25

himself to the emergency department with a twelve

32:28

hour history of abdominable pain. Physical

32:31

examination revealed tenderness, rebound

32:34

tenderness, and involuntary guarding.

32:36

A CT scan of this abdomen

32:39

and pelvis revealed a foreign body in his cavity.

32:42

Upon further questioning, the patient admitted the

32:44

eo was inserted into his anus by

32:46

accident. Well, yeah, okay,

32:49

look, we've all put some things up our assholes

32:51

by accident, by accident, by

32:54

accidents, not living un

32:57

accident of the Monopoly

33:00

board game, of course, pieces

33:02

of firearms, absolutely,

33:05

accident knives, Yes, it happens,

33:08

but not a live animal. That's all.

33:10

That's that was the entire It was an accident.

33:12

There was no clarification. That's it. So

33:16

he underwent He underwent

33:19

a laparotomy UM and

33:21

the eel was subsequently removed. He was transferred

33:24

to the standard ward from the emergency ward after seven

33:26

days of observation

33:29

UM diagnostic. The diagnosing

33:31

a calonic forim body can be challenging, as patients

33:34

often deny the insertion. Yeah, at

33:37

is recommended. I wouldn't want to admit to

33:39

that. Ct S GET is recommended for patients

33:41

having a suspected calonic foreign

33:44

body, so that that that's a hospital port

33:46

um. But this, it's this, uh

33:49

you know, you know, you know what else you want

33:52

to deny the presence of Robert

33:56

Washington State Patrol at black

33:58

black Rifle coffee at chevron ads?

34:00

Wait what is it? Chevron? I hope it's Chevron.

34:03

I love Chevron. Get some chev chev

34:05

ads are Our next season of podcasts

34:08

is going to be entirely supported by Chevron

34:10

Chevron fuck it? Why not? And

34:19

we're back um yep

34:22

talking about eels still

34:25

still wow, I watched eels

34:28

up inside. You spent so long on this episode

34:30

doing recently mighty boosh anybody too much time

34:33

I spent I spent too much time researching

34:36

this um Anyway.

34:38

January, there was another similar incident, but

34:41

but with a fun twist. Instead of boofing

34:43

the eels, a fifty one year old construction

34:45

worker in East China's

34:47

Going Sup Province swallowed two

34:50

live eels to reportedly treat his

34:52

constipation. Well, I guess that's

34:54

better. It's different it's

34:56

not better. It's differently. What I'll

34:59

say is better is it's there's no question

35:01

that it wasn't a sex thing. That

35:04

is that is probably this

35:06

is one of the instances that it probably wasn't a sex thing

35:08

because because again I think part of the problem here

35:10

is once this constipation myth

35:13

got started or like got started, people

35:15

are gonna hear about it, and then you know, people

35:17

might start actually doing it, genuine stupid people.

35:20

People might start doing it genuine Yeah,

35:22

so people take Joe Rogan's advice

35:25

on how to treat diseases. They're very

35:27

stupid. So yeah, he was rushing to the hospital by his colleagues

35:30

where it was where he revealed that he consumed

35:32

the eels the day before. During surgery,

35:34

they found they found a quote, very thick

35:36

eels lodged outside of the intestines

35:39

in the lower part of his abdomen. Because

35:42

the coding the doctor, because

35:45

the eels were alive while being swallowed.

35:47

A person's intestines are fragile, Therefore they

35:49

will be ruptured as soon as the eels bite them,

35:52

said the doctor. Really amazing,

35:54

So our intestines are not We did not evolve

35:57

to have our intestines bitten by eels. This

35:59

is shocking to They found a two centimeter wide

36:01

hole in the sigmoid colon.

36:03

Medics said he was in a state of shock due to life threatening

36:06

bacterial infection around the ruptured colon.

36:08

He was left in critical condition. The one

36:11

year old man was allegedly following a filk remedy

36:14

and which claims that gobbling live eels

36:16

could help pass a solid waste.

36:19

According to the surgeon, um

36:21

yes yeah great. Based

36:25

June and unnamed

36:28

patient aged in his fifties, medical

36:30

attention again in China's southern province

36:33

of Going Dong, after suffering

36:35

uh pain in his abdomen for

36:37

about a week, Jesus

36:40

Christ, God, Good God

36:42

in heaven Ah. By

36:44

this time he had severe sepsis

36:47

leading to septic shock and it was

36:49

unable to communicate. It was unable

36:51

to communicate coherently, according to the

36:53

surgeon, shocking very surprised

36:56

again, quoting said surgeon could

36:58

have anticipated this ring a ct SC

37:00

and we suspected a foreign body in his abdominal

37:04

garrison abdominal cavity, but

37:07

we couldn't tell what it was. Then while

37:09

performing a colonoscopy, we discovered it

37:11

was a nation swamp field that entered the kay

37:14

that entered the cavity um.

37:18

The patient then had an emergency operation to have the

37:20

eel removed from his gut, with doctors opening

37:22

up his abdomen and discovering it filled with waste

37:24

matter, including excrement and puss

37:26

from his severe infection. The

37:29

hospital image shows the again

37:32

not included in the document for Sophie's sake, a

37:34

fifteen inch freshwater eel removed

37:37

intact in the procedure. I can send you pictures afterwards,

37:39

Robert, please, I have a lot sounds.

37:44

This is how it starts, Robert, this is

37:46

how it starts. I'm

37:48

now eel curious. No, no,

37:51

you're not stop it. You

37:53

can, like, you can buy things that do the same

37:55

thing. You can you can buy things

37:57

that are not live eels to do the same thing.

38:00

You can get robotic stuff that does the same exact

38:02

thing. You could also get an ovipositor.

38:05

If you really that that is that

38:07

is that's completely

38:09

different. Are I just object

38:12

to you doing this comparison? Those are those

38:14

are? Those are those are classy? Okay? I

38:17

think they're neat alright anyway. Um, according

38:21

the doctor, the eel is already dead

38:23

when it caused to feel bacterial

38:26

um contamination in his adamant due

38:28

to build up of feces and pus um. It was

38:30

only it was it was only after surgery.

38:33

It was only after surgery when we are inquiring

38:35

after his medical and inquiring about his medical

38:37

history, that he told us he used the eel

38:39

to cure his constipation. He

38:42

inserted it up his anus into his rectum.

38:44

I suspect it was then that the perforation of

38:46

his signaled call it occurred. I also

38:49

suspect that that is also my my guess

38:51

is that it occurred afterwards. Yeah, yeah,

38:54

that sounds right. Because he had inserted

38:56

the live hel into himself. The chances of him

38:58

dying were quite high had he not had the surgery

39:01

and time again including the doctor um.

39:03

The doctor said that the constipation

39:06

cure folk remedy thing. Uh is

39:09

uh. He worened members of the public against

39:11

doing this um for some reason. Um.

39:15

Yeah. And the patient got discharged

39:17

days later and then allegedly purchased the common

39:19

freshwater eel from a wet market. According to the

39:21

hospital, So we got

39:24

we got one more what one more? A

39:26

man again in the going to province

39:28

of East China insert long

39:31

eel into his direct him on July allegedly

39:35

in hopes of relieving constipation, but

39:37

instead it almost took his life after the

39:39

eel entered his abdomen. He

39:41

finally went to the doctor after enduring pain on

39:44

the first day as he was, but on

39:46

the first day he he didn't go. Uh

39:48

he basically he didn't go on the first day,

39:50

but one in the second day because he was too shy

39:53

to see a doctor. Yeah, well, okay,

39:55

to have to explain this to the dock um

39:58

that keeps being an issue in these, This is an

40:00

issue in these, I would say the primary

40:02

issue is putting into Yeah,

40:05

okay, the doctor who did the operation

40:08

so that he could have lost his life as the bacteria and the large

40:10

intestine may have caused humulosis when

40:12

it reached the abdominable

40:15

at Jesus Christ abdominal

40:19

cabin. There we go, There we go. You did

40:21

it. According to Chinese news outlet Global Times,

40:23

what motivvated of the man to do so was a folk

40:25

remedy that says the eel can help with bowel

40:27

movement, but instead of caring the constipation,

40:30

the eel went inside the men's rectum to the colon

40:32

and bit through it, entering from the

40:34

from the colon into the abdomen um. The

40:36

deal was still alive by the time it was removed during

40:39

operation for the eel. I hope, I hope

40:41

it's lived a full life. So this is where

40:43

things are going to kind of tie back to the two eel horse,

40:45

because I think I was waiting for that. I think

40:47

a lot of these incidents are in fact

40:50

not due to constipation, and our

40:52

people just using that as an excuse. They don't

40:54

have to they don't have to admit the slightly more

40:56

embarrassing reasoning that being

40:59

that they thought it was hot because I remember only

41:01

the only the first guy you mentioned actually admitted it

41:03

to being a kink thing back in But

41:05

ever since the first story in twenty seventeen of a

41:07

guy claiming its constipation, everyone

41:10

is using this reason now. Um. And

41:12

I think a lot of a lot of these incidents are

41:14

actually actually also kink stuff. Um.

41:17

So back to the figging again

41:20

rise derived from figging with the

41:22

horse. Um. With with with the rise of internet

41:24

and porn, uh, I

41:27

think you know this stuff has been getting more

41:29

popular and and and and once and once

41:31

the once the ginger figguring isn't exciting

41:33

you anymore. You know what you're gonna do that.

41:36

That's that's right, baby, return to tradition and use

41:38

the original horse speaking tool, the live

41:40

eel. And that's what's that. That's that's what.

41:42

That's what's going on. So I talked to our doctor

41:45

French Kava, who specializes in colin.

41:49

Yeah, he specializes in like colin, the

41:53

exact doctor to deal with this. So

41:56

I talked, I talked about this um and

41:58

he said he said he's heard of this caitatient

42:00

excuse before, but he too and

42:03

he and his and his colleagues are skeptical

42:05

and think that the conservation excuse is actually

42:07

bullshit. Sure, he he told me that

42:10

people get pretty creative when they start coming up

42:12

with excuses for things they put in their

42:14

rectum, like he gave. He

42:16

gave examples as I was doing

42:19

pull ups over a shampoo bottle, or

42:21

I had an itch, as you know, reasons

42:24

people bullshit for why they find weird

42:26

things up there. But um Sokva

42:29

says that this is this is probably

42:32

probably a sex thing, and he

42:34

doesn't he he could not find

42:36

any basis for this folk remedy.

42:38

Like he he cannot like see where this idea actually

42:40

comes from. He talked to like to like Chinese

42:43

doctor of friends of his and like like you know, like this isn't a thing,

42:46

Like we don't know where this this isn't actually

42:48

a thing. Um and like

42:50

from my cursory examination, um,

42:53

eel and more broadly, like tentacle stuff

42:55

is generally more popular in

42:58

Asia and Japan and China than is in this states.

43:00

Generally, UM, I mean it's

43:02

there is definitely its own thing

43:05

here, but a lot of that also does come from anime. Most

43:07

of most of the tentacle stuff is is

43:09

around anime. UM and so

43:12

I also, I'll talk with our friend Chris about

43:14

this, and and and and we surmised

43:16

that the reason why this may be way more common

43:19

in the Guangdong and Eastern Chinese provinces

43:21

is because those two areas produce

43:24

an absurd amount of the world's eel

43:26

exports um. And then the

43:28

amount of el exports have been rapidly increasing

43:31

over the past twenty years, which means the people

43:33

in those provinces have eels just

43:35

around like way and

43:37

like they're they're way more common and way more easily accessible

43:40

than anywhere else in the world. Basically, so like

43:42

you can actually a lot cheaper than whatever eel

43:44

based sex toys you're about to suggest, Garrison

43:47

being absolutely thinking people a lot of pay

43:49

money when there's free eels lying around

43:51

to get get off with, because

43:53

like, because the other thing is, it's like I've

43:56

I've tried to really find all

43:58

references to like this oak remedy folklore

44:01

method of current constipation, and it only

44:03

tracks back to this to one article

44:07

um and anything before that, like and and

44:09

the and the one to US and three incident as

44:11

well. But but that's but that's it. There's no

44:13

other there's really no other basis

44:16

for their actually being a focal origin.

44:18

So like if if if any, if any listeners

44:20

are have a knowledge of this tracking

44:22

back before two US and three, please

44:24

please let me know, because I've tried looking. I've

44:27

spent days, days, days

44:29

looking for information about about

44:32

eel anal constipation cures pre twenty

44:35

pre to US and three and preen

44:37

and it's it's just I can't find anything. Um

44:41

so and and and doctors in China

44:43

also agree with this assessment. I'm going to

44:45

read this is one one final thing I'm

44:48

gonna be looking at there. There is one study

44:50

from from from China looking

44:53

at the UH that the eel anus phenomenon.

44:56

So they didn't they did an actual study on this because they

44:58

kept being a problem um self.

45:00

Introduction of an eel into the anist

45:02

causing colonic perforation is

45:04

uncommon, but when it occurs, the reason

45:07

may be due to a biz our belief, an inadvert

45:09

sexual behavior, or a criminal assault.

45:12

The situation is more common in men about

45:14

about four to one um and

45:16

once a live eels inserted into the colon, it

45:18

will bite through the wall of the colon, migrating

45:20

into the abdom abdominal

45:23

cavity through perforation, resulting

45:26

in an accidental opportunistic human

45:28

pathogen similar to the vibrio vole

45:31

if Nicklas infection COOL.

45:35

Diagnosing a clonic form body can be challenging

45:37

because patients often deny the insertion.

45:40

They may have obscure anal pain, mucous

45:42

discharge lacks anal tone, and

45:45

fresh bleeding from the rectum. Man just

45:47

an incredible number of of banded

45:49

names in that sentence you just said. The

45:52

most common presenting clinical features of calonic

45:55

perforation are para tonal irritation

45:57

with rebound tenderness and rigidity of

45:59

the abdomen, accompanied by fever and rapid

46:02

heartbeat. These features should raise the suspicion

46:04

of a presence of a clonic foreign body playing.

46:06

Radio graphs are useful in diagnosing the perforations.

46:09

However, a ct S can is recommended if the findings are

46:11

not definitive or if the presence of a foreign

46:13

body cannot be ruled in or out by radio

46:15

graphs alone. So so

46:17

yeah, this is this is how we get from putting

46:20

horse putting eels up horses butts to make them seem

46:22

younger and carry their tail high. And well, two

46:25

people dying and almost dying from

46:27

eels eating their insides because you saw it in

46:29

a porn video. But I

46:32

just I really do love the like the actual like

46:34

linguistic pathway of feeding

46:38

and then feeding changing from eels to ginger,

46:40

then the ginger thing changing from

46:43

feeding to figging for sex, and

46:45

then going back to eels.

46:47

It's like full circle. It's just just beautiful,

46:50

the beauty of life. It's

46:53

like poetry at rhymes. Yeah, exactly, It's

46:55

amazing how it just a complete full circle

46:57

moment of starting with eels with

47:00

with figging, and ending with eels

47:02

with figging. Um. I love

47:04

the human language. Humans are great, except

47:06

for all the horrible things that we do. This

47:09

is again, we probably shouldn't be doing this as

47:11

like a global pandemic and wasting hospital

47:14

space because you keep shoving eels up your butt like

47:16

a lot of these were like three three

47:18

of these were like guys

47:22

in the recommendation.

47:24

Officially, no, stop stop

47:27

doing it. You

47:29

can buy then, you can buy toys. You

47:31

can buy toys that do the same thing. Respect.

47:35

Eels can't consent backtfully, Robert,

47:38

shut the fuck up. The eels

47:40

can't consent. The eels can listen

47:43

to listen to Garrison. Do not listen to Robert.

47:45

That this

47:48

actually does bring us full

47:50

circle, because what is perfectly safe

47:53

and what is perfectly ethical is

47:55

using ethically slaughtered horse and ethically

47:58

fished eels to make an eel horse.

48:00

I mean it is more ethical. It is more

48:02

ethical than shoving an eel up your friends. But as

48:04

they are asleep and then and then them

48:07

dying, that is true. So anyway,

48:09

that that is the ballad of eel horse and

48:11

how we get from eel horse to our

48:14

modern eel anal epidemic. Perfect,

48:17

perfect lineage, just amazing lineage.

48:19

Ah. If you're out there and you've

48:21

got a horse that's about to die of natural

48:23

causes, we want to put eels in it and cook

48:25

it. God, so hit us up. I

48:30

would like to be excluded from this narrative,

48:32

but it is. It's cool toon

48:34

media. I hurt media dot com, cool

48:37

zone media at I heart media dot com.

48:40

Find hob horribly

48:42

horribly dame. If you

48:44

if you've got a lion on a significant

48:47

quantity of raw eels, we might, we might,

48:49

we might need that too, But I think I can probably I'm

48:51

gonna leave. I'm gonna I'm gonna, well,

48:54

you're going to cook the eel horse with me, Garrison.

48:56

That's going to happen when we finally get the horse

48:59

and the eels. Can I just say, can

49:01

I just say, Garrison, I'm sorry, I'm

49:03

sorry that I'm sorry. I had to watch so many of these videos,

49:06

to watch many of those videos to surely

49:08

academic, purely academic. In fairness,

49:11

absolutely no one asked you to do this. No

49:17

one ever would have asked you to do this. We're

49:23

asking you, the listener at home, to

49:26

check us out wherever podcasts

49:29

find the Bastards happened

49:32

here, that happened here, pod I

49:35

wrote a book called After the Revolution. Maybe

49:38

the sequel will include an eel horse. If it's tasty,

49:41

maybe that's the future of food. There's no way to know.

49:43

I do like that this is. I know we've covered a lot of darker

49:46

topics on Behind the Bastards more recently, and

49:48

I do like this is. This is a very nice light light

49:50

beacon. And like the Bastards totem

49:52

Pole, we are pretty pretty low relatively

49:55

means still, it's like Phoenix

49:57

programs, pretty high, but like but

50:00

like the like the horse salesman thing, they're

50:02

they're pretty bad, but they're on the lower end.

50:04

I mean, it is there. They're like they're they're

50:06

they're they're on the lower end of bastards. So

50:09

I do like to have a bit

50:11

of a lighter presence in this in this episode. So

50:13

you're welcome for that. Um and

50:16

yep, I'm done talking about this topic. Come

50:19

over, Garrison, I'm gonna cook crocodile

50:21

tonight. I found a place that will say I am, I am coming,

50:24

I'm coming right over actually in bye

50:29

bye, Hey

50:32

everybody, wanted to record a note. Some

50:34

people on the subcredit got

50:37

quite frustrated about some of the claims

50:39

about the Phoenix program um.

50:41

They pointed out and ask Historians thread,

50:44

which doesn't put

50:47

any shade on the specific claims made by

50:49

the author Douglas Valentine's about the eels

50:51

and whatnot, but does

50:54

generally have issues with his sourcing. At

50:56

least one of his sources was one of the

50:58

guy that's very common when you're talking about Vietnam,

51:00

which was like some dude who pretended to

51:02

have done something that he hadn't or

51:05

to have had a position that he hadn't. You find this a lot

51:07

on like both sides of the war crimes discussion.

51:10

I wanted to know that Number One, I'm not entirely

51:12

convinced by that Asked Historians thread, because

51:14

it's just a guy talking about

51:17

you know why he doesn't think this is a particularly

51:19

credible and that thread he talks

51:21

about. One of his justifications is that like eliminating

51:25

insurgent infrastructure at a ground levels of basic

51:27

counterinsurgency tactic um,

51:30

which yeah, it is a basic counterinsurgency

51:32

tactic. Counterinsurgency operations

51:34

nearly always involved significant war crimes

51:36

UM, and you can see that no matter who is doing the counterinsurgency,

51:39

whether it's Kenya or Afghanistan

51:41

with the Russians, you know it's it's it's war

51:44

crimes are part and parcel of counterinsurgency.

51:47

UM. The mess is kind of one

51:53

of the reasons why we don't generally delve into this territory

51:56

too much without doing it in a dedicated episode is

51:58

that when you're talking about like crimes against

52:00

humanity, specifically once the CIA was

52:02

involved in UM, you've got

52:04

a couple of different sources. Some of them are going to be declassified

52:07

documents, which you know, in a lot of cases

52:09

you actually do have. Here's the CIA talking about

52:12

fucked up ship they did, but a lot of

52:14

information was destroyed, a lot of stuff never got

52:16

written down. And so a lot of times when you're talking about war

52:18

crimes in a variety of countries, you're getting

52:21

human sources. Some of those will be victims,

52:24

some of those will be guys who were in the

52:26

CIA or who were in another military branch

52:29

and who there's always different kind of levels

52:31

of credibility and kind of shortcomings

52:34

and inconsistencies in their stories, and

52:37

it's all sort of complicated by the fact

52:39

that debate over US war crimes in

52:41

Vietnam within the United States is incredibly

52:44

political. Um. You can look at this when

52:46

you're just trying to determine the actual body count,

52:48

right there's a massive ongoing

52:50

debate about how many civilians were killed specifically

52:53

and how many civilians were killed by the United States, but just

52:55

how many died in general in Vietnam and Cambodia

52:58

UM. And you can find historians arguing

53:01

at nauseum about this. UM. One

53:04

of the big debates with a lot of the kind of ground

53:07

level war crimes, because on any objective level,

53:09

majority of war crimes the US is responsible

53:11

in Vietnam were committed from the air. But when you're

53:14

talking about ground level war crimes like we were

53:16

talking about here, you'll run into a couple

53:18

of different books, Nick terss Kill Anything

53:20

That Moves and Gary Kulik's War Stories,

53:23

And these are very opposed books. And you can

53:25

find a lot of criticism about terse

53:27

his book um in online by

53:30

historians. Uh Kulik is

53:32

who's critical of ters is generally seen

53:34

as more credible. Kulik was

53:36

also a U S soldier in Vietnam,

53:39

um. And again so you're

53:42

there's always this tremendous amount of bias kind

53:44

of no matter where you you come at it from.

53:46

And other people will point out that a lot of the early like

53:49

push to talk about US war crimes in Vietnam

53:51

was funded by Hanoi, which you can

53:53

say, yeah, and of course they have an agenda, but also

53:55

but yeah, they were also the victims of a lot of

53:57

war crimes. So this is just I don't know,

54:00

um. I this is not a case where I feel

54:02

like we necessarily got something wrong,

54:04

um, because I'm not convinced

54:06

that the Douglas Valentine

54:09

book is wrong, especially based on the evidence

54:11

that we have. But it is worth noting that there

54:13

is a tremendous amount of debate over

54:15

all of this, and as a general rule, when we delve

54:17

into stuff like this, UM,

54:20

we will try to make sure

54:22

that it's in a thing focused on that so that we

54:24

can actually cover the swath

54:27

of historiography on

54:29

the subject, rather than kind of um,

54:32

pass over a little bit of it, um and

54:34

then lead people to think that, Okay, well what about

54:37

this, what about this argument, what about that argument?

54:39

Um? This is all incredibly political history.

54:42

So that's uh what you get