0:00

My name is Ben Greenfield. And on this episode

0:02

of the Ben Greenfield Life podcast,

0:04

we've explored a tremendous amount

0:06

around entities and what

0:09

they could possibly do. Sometimes

0:11

they're malevolent and cause tremendous problems

0:13

and harm for people. I've seen

0:15

full on demonic possessions where

0:17

exergisms are done to be able to release

0:19

these kinds of entities from people. Tremontic

0:22

warriorship is a tried proven

0:24

thing in the Amazon been going on for thousands

0:27

of years. People go into these

0:29

altered states and ultimately have

0:31

battles in consciousness and

0:33

you're literally fighting for your life

0:36

there's ultimately no way out of it other than

0:38

to fight your way out through the other side. The

0:40

shortest battles we were ever in could have lasted

0:43

five to ten minutes and the longest

0:45

ones ten to fifteen hours at

0:47

a time that went on for many, many

0:49

years.

0:53

Faith, family, fitness,

0:56

health, performance, nutrition,

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longevity, ancestral living,

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biohacking, and a whole lot

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6:39

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6:41

Hamilton Southern

6:43

Souther is

6:45

a his shaman, but

6:48

he's no ordinary shaman. He he he's

6:50

the guidance found at a place called Blue

6:52

Morfo. And there

6:54

are Blue Morfo. He's a master Ayahuasca

6:57

shaman. He has been

7:00

studying in Peru since

7:03

his early twenties. And

7:05

so he's been down there for a couple of decades.

7:08

Immersed in mysticism and

7:11

Shamanism and is actually

7:13

one of the few non native men down

7:15

there to ever be initiated into

7:17

the traditional ways of Ayahuasca

7:19

Shamanism, and he'll be able to

7:22

to fill in more on what exactly

7:24

that is and why that's meaningful on

7:26

today's show. But anyways, his queuing

7:28

center, like I mentioned, is called Blue morpho.

7:30

Based in in Nikita's Peru,

7:33

and that's a place where he holds

7:35

traditional healing routines. He also does

7:37

a lot. In cyberspace as well,

7:39

help people out online. And

7:42

he and I have a few mutual acquaintances, and

7:45

he's he's really got a unique

7:48

approach to this whole plant medicine

7:50

piece. So I thought he'd be a really interesting

7:52

guy to have on the show all the show notes,

7:54

everything we talk about are gonna be ben greenfield

7:56

life dot com slash hamilton. Ben

7:58

greenfield life dot com slash

8:00

hamilton. So Hamilton, welcome

8:02

to

8:02

show, ma'am. Oh,

8:03

thanks, Ben. It's a pleasure to be here.

8:05

Yeah. So you're down you're down approved

8:07

right now. Yeah.

8:08

Absolutely. We're here in Peru. I'm I'm

8:10

here in Lima actually at this moment.

8:12

Okay. Cool. Now, do you do you live

8:14

down there permanently in Peru? Yeah.

8:16

I travel around a lot, but really our home

8:19

base is here in Peru. Okay. So,

8:21

you know, I I would love to hear

8:23

your evolution because because you're obviously not

8:25

peruvian or or, you know, native

8:27

Amazonian. How'd you come to

8:29

to be what what's called a

8:31

master Ayahuasca shaman?

8:34

Yeah. So in my early twenties, I

8:36

had an opportunity to come

8:39

down to Peru, really interested in

8:41

mysticism and medicinal

8:43

plants. And kind

8:45

of what was beyond the

8:47

the scene or visible

8:48

reality. What

8:49

interested you in

8:50

that? Well, after I graduated from the

8:53

university, I studied Anthropologie and I

8:55

heard heard stories about this, you know,

8:57

extraordinary reality. Never

8:59

experienced it myself. I actually had, like, a

9:01

spontaneous awakening. I had a a

9:03

shift in consciousness where

9:05

I started to have extraordinary experiences. And

9:07

as part of those experiences, it

9:10

was very clear that I needed to actually

9:12

train or develop the

9:14

capacities that were sort of

9:16

naturally manifesting on their

9:17

own. It was

9:18

up before you went to Peru or or after

9:20

that you had this spontaneous awakening.

9:23

No. It's before I went to Peru. It's actually what

9:25

sent me to Peru in the first place.

9:27

No. What what exactly is that? And

9:29

sorry sorry to to already start rabbit

9:31

holeing as you go into your

9:32

history, but But what what is a spontaneous

9:35

awakening? You know, it's like you're

9:37

living your ordinary life and everything's

9:39

basically completely normal. And

9:41

all of a sudden, you start having

9:43

extraordinary experiences like

9:45

prophetic dream experiences or

9:47

deep inner knowings or feeling like a

9:49

calling or a direction that you need to

9:52

follow or visionary experiences

9:54

in their own right through meditation, breath

9:56

works, stuff like that. In my

9:58

case, it was all very

10:01

natural. Like, just one day to the next, I

10:03

started to have these very lucid

10:05

dreams and prophetic experiences.

10:07

And, ultimately, it told me that I needed

10:09

to go down to Peru. Did you have

10:11

any, like, family history or stuff like that,

10:13

or did you talk to your parents or grandparents? Like,

10:15

what like, is this something that you

10:17

think was kinda, like, naturally built

10:19

into you or that you genetically inherited?

10:22

Or I mean, did did

10:24

you think initially that you maybe

10:26

just ate a piece of funky cheese? Or

10:28

or what was your perception of the whole

10:29

thing? Well, it really all started

10:32

after I kind of I mean, I

10:34

fundamentally gave my life to spirit

10:36

and didn't really know what that meant at

10:38

the time but I was kinda over

10:40

trying to lead and guide everything on my

10:42

own. And so I thought there had

10:44

to be something greater than just us or

10:46

just ego. And so

10:48

I dedicated my life to that. I gave my

10:50

life to it, hoping that there would be some kind of

10:52

intervention or some kind of support

10:54

guidance direction that I could be given in my

10:56

early twenties and Luckily, in my case,

10:58

it actually happened very quickly. And

11:00

there wasn't really any family history of that of

11:02

any kind that came from a Western medical

11:04

family, complete science background,

11:07

But there was this idea that there might be something

11:09

greater to this

11:09

universe. And so we tap into that.

11:12

Yeah. So so a spontaneous awakening

11:14

in in these lucid dreams. Do you remember

11:16

any exam pulls of of something you experienced or

11:18

even like the Pru

11:19

thing? Was it like a voice in your head that said

11:21

go to Pru? Or or what was that

11:23

like? Yeah. I mean, in the the prophetic

11:25

dreams, it was like having dreams

11:27

where I'd become very

11:29

lucid, I would become aware of myself in

11:31

the dream could start to guide and

11:33

direct myself in that experience. It

11:35

was actually very healing. It allowed me to move

11:37

beyond certain kinds of fears and

11:39

phobias and certain hang ups that had our

11:41

blockages about the past, things like that.

11:43

So, actually, things that we could all relate

11:45

to. They're really helpful in that

11:47

sense. And then I

11:49

also heard, like, a deep inner

11:51

voice or a deep inner awareness. It's kinda

11:53

like intuition on steroids.

11:56

Right? It's like super intuition and it just said

11:58

you're gonna go to Peru. And

12:00

in my case, I said, no, I'm not. I kinda

12:02

denied the whole thing at first. So I'm like, no. I

12:04

don't think I'm going to Peru. And I was

12:06

actually told the the

12:08

website to go to at the time of night to

12:10

go to it that there were one ticket

12:12

there that would be half the

12:13

cost.

12:14

No. No. When you say you were you were told, was

12:16

it like a vision that you

12:18

would then write down?

12:20

Or or was it kinda like channel through

12:22

you vocally? Or what's

12:24

that like when when you're

12:25

told? Well,

12:26

I think, like, if you have, like, a really strong intuition,

12:29

only now it's coming from a third party

12:31

kind of source. Okay. So

12:33

it's not you telling it to yourself,

12:35

but it's sort of like you like,

12:38

inside you knowing it, it came through meditations.

12:40

So I know meditation, deep meditation, and

12:43

kinda trans meditations can, you know,

12:45

alter your perception in a way. And so it

12:47

just sort of sounded like in my own

12:49

mind this greater

12:50

definitive direction saying

12:53

you're going to go to Peru. And it's

12:54

more than just like a Germany cricket,

12:57

like conscience thing, like, maybe I should go

12:59

to Pru. It it it feels like a

13:01

directive from something outside

13:02

you. Yeah. For sure. A hundred

13:04

percent, like, literally, you're gonna go

13:06

to Peru. I mean, those were the words.

13:08

It's like, okay. I I said no.

13:10

And then they said the same

13:12

thing said, you're gonna go to

13:14

travelocity through yahoo dot com

13:16

at, you know, nine PM tonight, and

13:18

there's gonna be a ticket there that's half price

13:20

--

13:20

Wow. -- that I was bought back you know,

13:23

okay. I'll I'll go. I'll be at least

13:25

I'll look. And certainly, there was a

13:27

ticket there that was half

13:27

price. And so that's how I ended up going

13:30

to prove.

13:30

Okay. So you get to Peru and then what happens?

13:33

Well, I I kinda before

13:35

to that same voice, I said, like, what do you mean?

13:37

I'm gonna go to Peru. You know?

13:39

Like, a six foot three white guy from the states,

13:41

you know, like, from California. What do you

13:43

mean? I'm just gonna go to Peru, and

13:45

I'm gonna, you know, travel around. Like,

13:47

what am I gonna do? And same

13:49

intuition. I was

13:49

like, well, just go backpacking.

13:51

You know, so I had a backpack and

13:53

I I flew into Peru.

13:56

And I started backpacking around

13:58

really looking for mystics and looking

14:00

for people that could kinda guide me or help

14:02

me understand the direction that I

14:04

was supposed to go at that time and I

14:06

was interested in, you know, potentially

14:08

finding medicinal plants and, you

14:10

know, kind of having an anthropological adventure

14:13

in its own. Right? So I was just traveling

14:15

around and every day

14:17

I would do a meditation and

14:19

every day I would get clear guidance on

14:21

what to do the next

14:22

day. was

14:23

literally that simple. And so I

14:26

literally went around Peru for

14:28

about fifty, sixty days and ended up in

14:30

the Amazon. And then went deep into

14:32

the forest and ultimately had

14:34

my first Ayahuasca ceremony, and

14:36

it was in that ceremony that I was

14:38

shown in visions. Now, this was obviously

14:40

you know, extreme visions, not just deep

14:43

intuitions, but this is now, you

14:45

know, unbelievably strong,

14:47

very clear visions that I

14:49

actually needed to stay in that part of the forest

14:51

and that that's where I would live,

14:53

learn, apprentice, be accepted by

14:55

the people and ultimately

14:58

start a

14:58

life. Well, and so and so

15:00

at what point did you kinda

15:03

get interested in becoming

15:05

a shaman

15:05

yourself? You know, the term shaman

15:07

is sort of imported. And so

15:09

there are these people in the forest that have

15:12

this really interesting belief system

15:14

around medicine. Which is that

15:16

spirit is interconnected

15:18

and and interlinked with medicine.

15:21

So the doctors of the forests.

15:23

They're called Medi CoVajitha Listas or

15:25

plant doctors. You know, you got to think

15:27

you're in the middle of the forest. There's no

15:29

hospitals. There are no other people. And

15:31

there are lineages that have passed

15:33

down this tribal knowledge of

15:35

the use of the medicinal plants of the

15:37

forest, of which there are

15:39

documented hundreds and, you know,

15:41

potentially even thousands. And

15:44

they have this knowledge. They know how

15:46

to heal with it. A variety of

15:48

illnesses like you'd think about eighty to

15:50

ninety percent of the Western illnesses

15:52

that are covered by hospitals. They're able to

15:54

cover in the Amazon with these plants. And

15:56

they have this belief that spirit and

15:58

to them that is the total energy,

16:01

the total energy of the universe, the

16:03

total energy of the forest, the total

16:05

energy of earth, this idea of spirit

16:07

is interconnected with their medicine. And

16:09

so that was just very interesting to

16:10

me. And it was at that point that

16:13

I realized that I wanted to study it. So

16:15

so when you say it's used as

16:17

medicine, I think the perception

16:19

of Ayahuasca, probably by

16:21

a lot of the people listening to podcast?

16:23

Is it something that people

16:26

will sometimes go to South

16:28

America to experience or occasionally

16:30

experience in the United States

16:32

or elsewhere? As kind of like a

16:34

mind journey or, you know,

16:36

mind expanding, you know,

16:38

plant medicine excursion or something

16:40

like that. When you say it's used

16:42

as medicine, it sounds to me

16:44

like you're implying that it's used

16:46

perhaps more traditionally for things

16:48

like chronic diseases or injuries

16:50

or something like

16:50

that? Yeah. I think that, you know, these

16:53

hundreds of medicinal plants, not just

16:55

Ayahuasca, but literally hundreds

16:57

of plants. Are used exactly

16:59

the same way that Western pharmaceutical

17:01

drugs are used. So

17:03

there's a process of meeting with somebody

17:05

who's respected as a doctor and

17:07

then there's a diagnostic process to come to

17:09

a diagnosis of the illness. And

17:11

then there's a treatment that

17:14

is created and a variety

17:16

of medicinal plants would be used. And in a

17:18

traditional practice, Ayahuasca

17:20

may be used one tenth of

17:22

the time. And it's not the way that

17:24

it's portrayed in the west. It's portrayed that the

17:26

medicine out there is Ayahuasca, but that's

17:28

not really true. Ayahuasca has used maybe one

17:30

tenth, maybe one fifth of

17:32

the time and it's used to treat the spirit, not

17:34

typically used to treat the physical

17:36

body endless. There is an illness that

17:38

it's really good at healing, which includes

17:40

gastrointestinal illnesses,

17:42

and other kinds of psychological and psychosomatic

17:44

illnesses. It's considered incredibly good

17:46

for healing. For the piece about gastrointestinal

17:49

illnesses, that's interesting because I've

17:51

talked to a few people who have used

17:55

Ayahuasca for the

17:57

spiritual purposes but reported

17:59

that a lot of gastrointestinal issues

18:01

that they've had have been resolved. And

18:03

I I always kind of hypothesized that maybe

18:05

it was a gut brain access

18:08

thing and that perhaps they'd release nervousness

18:10

or anxiety or trauma or something

18:12

like that and that that had an impact, you

18:15

know, they the vagus nerve or whatever

18:17

else on the gut. But is Ayahuasca

18:19

actually doing some other things you think

18:21

from a microbiome or a

18:23

gut standpoint?

18:23

Yeah, I do. I think that one, there's

18:26

a kind of brain regulation

18:28

that takes place on a chemical level, you know,

18:30

not just like a spiritual level where you get

18:32

over some that you would maybe think of in psychology. This

18:34

is much more psychiatric. So I

18:36

think there's one of a brain chemistry phenomena

18:39

that takes place in the

18:41

treatment with Ayahuasca. But I also think that

18:43

there are other aspects of the

18:45

plant itself that are incredibly good for

18:48

clearing the intestines. And

18:50

giving the intestines an opportunity to heal

18:52

themselves. And now if you add

18:54

other plants that we know that are

18:56

really potent for treating

18:58

both different kinds of parasites and other

19:00

kinds of just gastrointestinal inflammation.

19:03

You can also have a

19:05

tremendous positive effect on the ability of

19:07

the body to heal the intestines.

19:09

Interesting. Now, I I should probably

19:12

just so I don't put the cart in front of

19:14

the horse here. You know, some people

19:16

might be listening in who might not

19:18

fully understand what an Ayahuasca

19:21

experience would actually be

19:22

like, how is that medicine actually served? And

19:24

I realize it's a super basic question for

19:26

some people, but I know

19:28

that some of my listeners might not really

19:31

know. That's phenomenal because, you know, while it's been

19:33

talked about a lot, fundamentally, it's

19:35

so unique in the the

19:37

administration of it. Right?

19:39

First of all, it's a tea. So it's in essence, simple

19:41

to make because it's a combination of our variety

19:43

of plants that when combined for

19:46

myo wasp there's the vein of Ayahuasca

19:48

that's banisteriosa Cappy. There's

19:50

psychiatry, Vedras, which is called

19:52

Jicruca. And then a variety of

19:54

other admiral can be added depending

19:56

on the lineage in their practice. But

19:58

really, you combine those two plants together and

20:00

you get the base of Ayahuasca itself.

20:02

Pharmacologically, what's really interesting about it

20:04

is that Ayahuasca has a substance in

20:06

it called Harmoline, and Harmoline

20:09

deactivates an enzyme in the stomach,

20:11

which allows diomethylriptamine to

20:13

be absorbed through the stomach and

20:15

ultimately go to the brain, which is what

20:17

causes the visions. And for those who

20:19

don't know, It's considered an

20:21

extremely visionary plant or one of the most

20:23

visionary plants there

20:25

are. And in a western sense, visionary is

20:27

called hallucinogenic. We question

20:29

the the idea of hallucinations associated

20:31

with the plant directly because

20:33

these visions that people have

20:36

transcend kind of the traditional definition

20:38

of a hallucination. There's this

20:40

merging with a greater shared reality

20:42

that takes place inside the

20:44

experience, which is called a ceremony.

20:46

So instead of it being administered in a

20:49

clinical, you know, environment, it's administered

20:51

literally in a in a ceremony. And

20:53

there is a ceremonial leader, and that is

20:55

your MedicuBA Hittalisto. Warrior

20:57

shaman. And they know

20:59

how the shamans have learned

21:01

how to guide

21:03

the trans experience and the visionary

21:06

experience that people have under the influence of

21:08

this medicine. While it's working

21:10

just like a Western medicine like you take it and the

21:12

chemicals go through your body and they have

21:14

a process that that works, but then

21:16

there's also this visionary component to it,

21:18

which can last anywhere from

21:20

two to eight hours. And

21:22

during that period of time, there's this

21:24

very unique consistent experience

21:26

between participants that they

21:28

go through a kind of mentalization and

21:30

journey associated with the

21:32

healing that's taking place physically.

21:34

And that can also provide a psych psychological

21:37

healing, psychosomatic healing,

21:39

as as well as sort of this kind

21:41

of extraordinary spiritual healing that

21:43

can take

21:44

place. I actually wanna wanna

21:46

delve into the spiritual component of a

21:48

little bit more. But back to the

21:51

physical medicinal component,

21:53

if it serves in a in a ceremony type

21:55

of format for the especially

21:57

the spiritual purposes that you've just outlined

22:00

is there also a practice of ever

22:03

serving it, I guess, in, like,

22:05

smaller doses, almost like like a

22:07

micro dose for people who might come in with, like,

22:09

gut issues or cboe or

22:11

a parasite or something like that. And the

22:13

reason I ask is I actually

22:15

have a it's somewhere up in

22:17

my pantry. Someone had

22:19

send me a couple bottles of what is

22:21

like an Ayahuasca extract

22:23

that is supposedly for microdosing

22:25

purposes. And I never really even

22:27

user. I wasn't quite sure what the what the use

22:30

indication would be, but is it ever

22:32

served like that as

22:32

well? It can be.

22:35

Traditionally, what you're gonna find is that it's served

22:37

in a dose that is measured

22:39

for your needs. And so that could be a

22:41

smaller dose and given over a number of

22:43

days or it could be a much larger dose and

22:45

given one

22:46

time. And we actually have, you know, examples of that and lots of

22:48

other kinds of parasite medications as

22:50

well. And

22:51

so a traditional treatment is typically

22:54

two or three experiences with

22:56

it. But then there are offices of these

22:58

tribal uses, which now go

23:00

beyond again, just the concept of the

23:02

Western Medical, and they have different mixtures

23:04

of the plants, still using the same base

23:06

of wine. And sometimes they'll use

23:09

only wine, and they'll make

23:11

it very watery and they'll drink

23:13

cups of it and really flush their system with

23:15

it. I really do think that the

23:17

western concept of microdosing is

23:19

something that, you know, has been created

23:21

in the west and isn't really shared in the

23:23

traditional cultures. So there's a number of different

23:25

ways to use

23:26

it, but microdosing really isn't one of them. Okay.

23:28

Alright. Got it. With Ayahuasca and

23:31

I could be wrong here or

23:34

misinformed, but I

23:36

have heard that shamans

23:39

traditionally would be the ones who

23:41

would use the Ayahuasca and

23:44

that the practice of

23:46

it being widely disseminated to

23:48

the general population is

23:50

a somewhat new

23:51

phenomenon. Is that Yeah,

23:54

for sure. In the traditional

23:57

cultures, only the practitioners use

23:59

Ayahuasca regularly, and

24:01

the patients only use it when necessary.

24:03

Now there are tribes that use

24:06

Ayahuasca where only the

24:08

practitioner or the doctor shaman

24:10

is the one who and gesture Ayahuasca goes

24:12

in divisions, and they use it as a

24:14

diagnostic tool, and then they perform different kinds of

24:16

energetic or spiritual healings.

24:18

You know, that's a kind of now steps

24:21

outside of the science and kind of have to go

24:23

on that journey yourself to to,

24:25

you know, understand. But yes,

24:27

there is that phenomenon where the

24:29

practitioners are the ones that drink it. And again, like

24:31

I said, they use it for diagnostics, then

24:33

patients would drink it when necessary.

24:35

Right? But you gotta also think that in the Amazon during this period of

24:37

time, they didn't have MRIs, they didn't have

24:39

blood tests, they didn't have laboratories to be able

24:41

to get more data. And

24:43

so the way that they got data was by going into

24:46

this extraordinary visionary state

24:48

or altered state of consciousness and

24:50

being able to get fact actual information that they would be

24:52

able to come back with from

24:54

that visionary state and then ultimately use

24:56

that to prescribe different kinds of

24:58

medicinal

24:58

plants. That's fascinating. Can

25:00

you walk me through with something like that

25:02

actually? Because I I assume as a shaman, you've

25:04

you've experienced that yourself or or gone in

25:06

as a

25:07

diagnostician, using something like Ayahuasca.

25:10

What's that actually like? Yeah. I can

25:12

give you a really great example about six

25:14

years ago, seven years ago, we had a gentleman

25:16

come to us, this

25:17

incredible, terrible limp in his right

25:19

leg. He came into a ceremony,

25:22

and I was gonna do the

25:24

diagnostics on him. And so during that night in

25:26

the visionary state, I

25:28

actually started to have a vision of what it

25:30

looked like inside his hip itself.

25:33

As if you

25:33

could, you know, have an ultrasound or an MRI.

25:35

It was as this eye was, like, literally inside

25:38

it. For the setting, is was

25:40

he like, in the room with you and then you --

25:42

Physically. -- administer the Ayahuasca to

25:44

yourself? To myself. Correct. And

25:47

he didn't drink. He's just lying there. He was not he

25:49

he wasn't a patient to drink Ayahuasca. They were trying

25:51

to understand what was, you know, wrong

25:54

with him. Okay. And know,

25:56

and so he just has this terrible pain in his hip. He

25:58

has this terrible limp. He's lying down

26:01

on a cushion on

26:03

the floor. And he was in a

26:05

group of another twenty or thirty people who were all

26:07

there for different reasons. And

26:09

so I participated in the Iowa

26:11

sky, drink it. And then as the vision start to come on,

26:13

you start to see this kind

26:15

of, like, matrix of patterns that's

26:17

in the air literally,

26:19

like, between you and everybody else. It's very

26:22

common to be able to see these really

26:24

intricate and beautiful geometric

26:27

patterns, and then from that colors kind of form and

26:29

appear. And then in that state, you

26:31

you know, you can focus on the

26:35

patient And in this case, I focused on the gentleman with the hip

26:37

problem. And all of a sudden, it was as if

26:39

I was looking directly inside his

26:41

hip, you know. And What I

26:43

saw was that the hip

26:45

was actually intact. He had an

26:47

inflamed hip socket. He had a huge

26:49

abscess on the femoral head. And it had spread into the

26:51

middle of the hip socket

26:52

itself. You

26:53

know, it looked like he had a a deep

26:56

infection and that what he what he needed

26:58

was to be treated by Western medicine.

27:00

And so I came out of

27:02

that vision and I said to him, look, you need

27:04

to be treated by Western medicine. It looks like you

27:06

have a, you know, incredible abscess

27:08

in your hip. You're gonna need a surgeon

27:10

to look at it. And so we sent him to

27:12

the hospital in the city the very next

27:15

day. And he got diagnosed exactly

27:17

that that he had in abscess in his

27:18

hip. He needed to have surgery.

27:20

They cleaned the head of the femur. They

27:23

cleaned the acetabulum. And

27:25

they were actually able to save his leg and

27:27

save his

27:27

hip. That's fascinating.

27:29

So man, it's it's almost like you had

27:31

x-ray goggles on or something like that.

27:34

That's really interesting. So when

27:36

you're doing something like that, have you

27:38

ever hypothesized as as to what's

27:40

occurring? Like, how you're actually able to

27:43

see that? You know, you get pretty

27:45

accustomed to the idea of moving

27:47

beyond the reflection of light off the

27:49

physical. So I think most people

27:51

consider their vision to be a vision

27:53

that is created by

27:55

the reflection of light and that that's what their

27:57

eyes see. And you kinda learned to

27:59

this experiences that even though it looks like

28:01

you're seeing everything outside of you, you're

28:03

actually seeing it in your brain. So where you

28:05

have this vision of, you know,

28:08

I don't know, the kitchen around you

28:10

or or you're living room or wherever you're

28:12

listening to this is actually taking place inside your

28:14

brain even though it does look outside

28:16

of you. And So

28:19

we get used to being in these states where we

28:21

understand that that vision is gonna kinda

28:23

disappear. And you're going to

28:25

have what looks like this deep dream.

28:27

And you kinda go into this understanding that what

28:29

sits behind all of this physical matter

28:31

is a kind of quantum reality or a

28:33

kind of energy that has been talked

28:35

about by different traditions for

28:37

thousands of years, call it the

28:39

dao, call it g,

28:41

call it Prana, call it

28:43

the subatomic and and the

28:45

quantum of the air itself that we're, you know, we're

28:47

currently studying in

28:49

science. And you you learn how to

28:51

not only relate to that kind of energy

28:53

and that kind of subtlety, but also to be

28:55

able to glean information from

28:58

it. And it's just fundamental to the diagnostic

29:00

process. Very few ever actually learned

29:02

it anymore. The practices have sort

29:04

of drifted to being more

29:06

kind of cycled

29:08

spiritual, but the real deep medicine practices

29:10

are are really about this idea of going deeper

29:12

into consciousness where you're going to like

29:14

an energetic reality that is part

29:16

of the the physics Do you

29:18

have a belief in I

29:21

I imagine this this is the case as

29:23

as someone who's practicing this

29:25

spiritually as well. That when

29:28

you're in that domain is

29:30

the potential to be

29:32

interacting with a

29:34

whole different you know, what what something might

29:36

call like a fourth dimension or a

29:38

spiritual world. And if so,

29:40

do you encounter other beings

29:42

when you're in that dimension, you

29:44

know, after having served Ayahuasca or

29:46

some other medicine, is it

29:49

all just you up inside your head interpreting

29:51

light in a different way? Or

29:53

are there other entities

29:55

or beings present

29:57

in your opinion?

29:59

I think that that's a a really interesting question. You

30:01

know, you're in

30:01

your own vision. And so you have to always take

30:03

that into consideration. But there

30:06

certainly is a collective

30:08

now experienced reports that

30:11

people have said literally millions,

30:13

where there is the

30:13

shared reality. And it

30:16

could be a higher dimensional state like you

30:18

described. It could be

30:20

an aspect of consciousness

30:22

itself that people are pioneering and

30:24

learning about and being able to discuss and talk

30:26

about. It can also be what's

30:28

beyond the Western traditional mind.

30:30

But, yes, it it is a shared space. And in

30:32

it, there are these other kinds

30:34

of energetic beings or energetic

30:37

shapes. And some of them reflect our

30:39

mythologies, our religions, and

30:41

our ancient traditional cultures.

30:44

And some of them don't. And the

30:46

ones that don't, you know,

30:48

kind of create their

30:51

own speak around them, etcetera. And there is also

30:53

discussion about the ability of these things

30:55

to be able to communicate with

30:57

you, interact with you, what

30:59

what they are or where they come from, you know,

31:01

if they're in essence something that's been

31:04

benevolent or malevolent, what the

31:06

possible consequences quences

31:08

are of that, and it's something that I think needs to be

31:10

taken very seriously when people consider

31:12

participating in these

31:12

experiences. Have you

31:13

ever encountered anything like that? Yeah.

31:16

I mean, I have a con encountered stuff like

31:18

this all the time. It's part and parcel

31:20

of what is described

31:23

as you know, part of the forest. And and the

31:25

mythology that the locals live with

31:27

is that the forest is alive and

31:29

that the beings that live there in the

31:31

form of, like, beings in the sense trees

31:33

and plants and animals and all

31:35

the things that we would see in a forest also

31:37

have this other spiritual component

31:40

associated with them that they call

31:42

it spirit and that you certainly can interact

31:44

with that. That was the first kinds of

31:46

of interactions and contacts I had. But

31:49

and working with people from all over the

31:52

world, really now from, you know,

31:54

over a hundred countries with all the

31:56

different kinds of ailments and and things that and

31:58

beliefs that they come with. We've explored

32:01

a tremendous amount around

32:04

entities

32:04

and, you know, what they could

32:06

possibly do. And it's really interesting. I mean, sometimes

32:09

they're malevolent and cause tremendous problems

32:11

and harm for people. I've seen

32:13

full on demonic possessions

32:15

and where, you know, accessisms are done to be

32:18

able to release these kinds of entities

32:20

from people. I've also seen

32:22

where there are benevolent

32:24

kinds of healing visions like There

32:26

was a lady. This is a great story. There was a

32:28

lady who came who was blind from Lyme's

32:30

disease. So she was fully

32:33

seeing got Lyme's disease and went blind, and then was

32:35

diagnosed blind, you know, was

32:37

legally blind. And she

32:39

saw in her visions that

32:42

these

32:42

jaguars, like these little jaguars were

32:44

actually eating the blindness out

32:46

of our eyes.

32:47

I don't relate to that by I

32:49

don't exactly understand what she was exactly experiencing, but

32:52

this is what she says she saw. She

32:54

saw Jaguar's come

32:56

and and literally eat blindness out of

32:58

her

32:58

eyes. And then over the next six weeks, she

33:00

became fully seeing again.

33:02

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33:14

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33:16

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33:18

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33:20

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33:22

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33:24

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33:27

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ben. When you're

36:00

in that state, I've heard it

36:02

might have been from you that this

36:06

idea that sometimes one shaman will

36:08

have certain entities at their

36:10

disposal and and another shaman will have other

36:12

entities and they're they'll almost have,

36:14

like, these battles

36:16

over certain individuals or certain villages or

36:18

or something like

36:19

that. Is there something to this idea of

36:21

a Shamanic battle? Absolutely.

36:24

Shamanic warriorship is is a tried

36:26

proven thing in the Amazon. It's been

36:28

going on for thousands of years. And

36:32

people go into these altered states

36:34

and ultimately have battles in

36:35

consciousness. And in their

36:38

consciousness, you're you're literally fighting

36:40

for your

36:41

life It's

36:41

a life and death fight. You know, there are

36:43

no rules, there's no referee. You mean

36:45

like like your physical

36:48

biological life? Yes, absolutely. It's over your physical

36:50

life. And the way they try to

36:52

prove these great mystical powers is to

36:54

actually manifest

36:56

things physically from great

36:58

distances. And so there's

37:00

this this massive culture

37:02

throughout the entire Amazon of

37:05

trying to war in battle through consciousness

37:06

itself. So the people and the participants are

37:09

separated by great distances.

37:12

But to make it real, they all declare verbally at

37:14

different places and different times and different

37:16

little towns and stuff like that, kinda

37:18

like the old west duels and

37:22

stuff. That this is actually happening. So there's a a

37:24

collective, like, community component to

37:26

it that knows what's going on.

37:29

And then there's the actual nights where these

37:31

battles take place, sort of like a

37:34

declared state of war or

37:36

conflict between different groups and

37:38

different people. And then instead

37:40

of going and attacking each other physically

37:42

in a conventional sense, they actually

37:44

try to attack each

37:46

other through this

37:46

psychological, you know, entity experience

37:49

that you're describing.

37:50

Holy cow. And it can be

37:53

incredibly harrowing. And something I

37:55

think that, you know, needs to be watched out for

37:58

for sure even though I understand that it

38:00

is really hard to relate

38:02

to or believe in unless you've experienced it.

38:04

Like, I did not believe in

38:06

any of this at all, at all

38:08

until I experienced it for myself. And

38:10

then when I came out of it, I

38:12

sadly realized how real it

38:14

was. And, you

38:14

know, realized that I'd bitten off more than

38:17

I could chew. Tell me about

38:18

the experience. There's

38:19

a number

38:20

of them. I mean, ultimately, I became part

38:22

of a lineage that healed the

38:24

what are

38:25

called the dark arts or these kinds

38:27

of warring

38:29

arts. So people use them in the Amazon in a kind of

38:32

retribution or they use them

38:34

in a a kind of

38:36

way to to

38:38

create justice. And

38:40

sometimes they're also just like real

38:42

psychopaths that are just completely malevolent in

38:44

their own right, and they learn these kinds

38:46

of arts and then use them too. We think

38:48

of them all as demonic and ultimately something that's,

38:51

you know, obviously very harmful and

38:53

very negative. So we were part of

38:55

a lineage that actually helped people get

38:57

past this or heal from this or be able to

39:00

move on in their lives after this had happened to

39:02

them. And so in that case, you

39:04

know, there's

39:06

there's lots of different ways to manifest, but you go into vision

39:08

and all of a sudden you realize that there's an attack

39:10

upon you and the visions

39:12

that you have are of

39:15

something that out of the account of like,

39:17

you know, Lord of the Rings

39:20

or, you know, it could look

39:22

like matrix. It could

39:25

look like Star Wars, it could

39:27

look

39:27

like. Yeah.

39:28

Like like like something out of a

39:30

Fantasy sci fi kind of an experience where

39:34

you're in in altered state. You're in an altered reality. You can't get

39:36

out of it. And now

39:38

upon you, coming at you

39:40

are these negative kinds of forms of

39:42

energies or

39:44

entities. And you hear it, smell it,

39:46

see it, sense it. And if it actually comes and and

39:48

reaches your physical body,

39:52

you experience the effect of

39:54

it. Literally, in the moment, it becomes

39:56

a completely psychosomatic state.

39:58

There's ultimately no way out of it other than

40:00

to fight your way out through the other side.

40:03

And, you know, the shortest battles we were

40:05

ever in could have lasted five to

40:07

ten minutes and the longest ones

40:09

ten to fifteen hours at a

40:11

time on for

40:12

many, many years. So when you're

40:14

when you're in this state and there's another shaman

40:16

who might be at a distance who you're

40:18

doing a battle with, do you

40:21

actually see them when you're you're

40:23

in this altered state, or do you

40:25

see certain entities that they're

40:27

directing at

40:28

you? You see both,

40:31

ultimately, multiple visionary fields

40:33

open up. So you get one field of

40:35

vision that is what's happening physically where the

40:37

origin of this attack coming

40:38

from. But

40:39

what are your are your eyes closed or open? It's an interesting

40:41

state

40:41

because with

40:42

your eyes open or closed, you see exactly

40:44

the same thing. Okay.

40:47

So you could have your eyes wide open, but this is happening

40:49

at night, so you're kind of in the

40:51

dark anyway. But, yeah, you you have a field

40:53

division like that. You have a

40:56

field division of the attack itself. You have a field division that's what's

40:58

happening right around you. You have a greater

41:00

field division, like, what could

41:02

be it, like, you know, a

41:04

hundred yards five hundred

41:06

yards, a kilometer away.

41:08

And then you can also have visions of

41:10

multiple fields at the same time, like something that

41:12

looks like outer space, something that looks

41:14

like earth, something that looks kinda otherworldly, hard to

41:16

describe, and all of those could be playing out at the

41:18

same time depending on the kind

41:19

of, you know, person you're

41:22

up against. Wow. That's really interesting.

41:24

So is this something that you had

41:26

to be trained to to

41:28

engage with or

41:29

experience? Or did it

41:32

just did you just get attacked one day? You have to deal with it?

41:34

I kinda talked

41:34

to one day and then had to deal

41:37

with it. Yeah. It was it

41:40

was not not something I

41:42

was trained for at the

41:44

time. The first person I actually ever

41:46

participated in Ayahuasca had turned

41:48

on me. A number of months after that experience and was the first

41:50

person to really come and attack me in a

41:52

in a very direct way. That

41:54

was ultimately

41:56

corroborated townspeople asked him if he had done it. He admitted he had. It was it

41:58

ended up becoming kind of a thing. You

42:00

know? And so Wow. So

42:03

it wasn't like made this up or was delusional at all. And

42:06

actually, like, this guy really did turn on me,

42:08

and he really did go tell the whole town that he

42:10

was gonna, you

42:10

know, do all this really negative things to

42:13

me. And

42:13

so so what what was that what was that like

42:15

being attacked? Like, how did you know what was

42:17

happening? I ultimately saw him in the

42:20

vision, and then I was attacked by,

42:22

like, all of these varacious

42:23

animals. So in the visions, it was

42:26

just, like, thousands of different kinds

42:28

of,

42:28

you know, every kind of attacking

42:30

animal you predator animal you can imagine

42:33

like wolves and and lions

42:35

and tigers and jaguars and

42:37

big snakes and small snakes,

42:40

poisonous snakes, and all these different

42:42

variety of them all at the same time in these, like,

42:44

multicolored kind of

42:46

psychedelic visions. All trying to come at me.

42:48

And I I was just asking, where is this coming from? Where is this coming from? And then I saw

42:50

him in the vision, his body was

42:52

all covered in

42:54

these black cloaks, and he had these,

42:56

like, big right big red, demini looking eyes. And he just, like, fatted

42:58

and kinda miserable and really nasty

43:00

and dark and scary.

43:03

And so that's

43:03

how I knew it was happening. It was just, like, ringing through

43:05

my head. Oh my god. It's coming from this

43:08

guy. And so, you know,

43:10

ultimately, I I started try to defend

43:12

myself. I don't know. Perry Block,

43:14

you know, use your mind for whatever you

43:16

can. You start asking, like, what do I do?

43:18

What do I do?

43:20

You know? In the space and you just kinda get

43:22

guided and directed and tuition kicks

43:24

in. Ultimately, I lasted about four

43:26

and a half hours before I lost the battle.

43:28

It was you know, my I I

43:30

had no experience. So I

43:32

didn't kinda you know, I didn't take it too

43:34

hard in that sense. Like, I should've won. I mean, I

43:36

wish I could've because I was ended up

43:38

getting very sick. Ended up

43:40

becoming very, very ill through that that

43:42

process. I ended up

43:44

finding the people who trained to me. So

43:46

luckily, they they healed me of

43:48

that, and then they

43:50

ultimately started to train

43:51

me. So Wow. Yeah.

43:52

It was it was in a very intense experience

43:55

and you just get like and when I say sick, I

43:57

mean, high fevers, vomiting, and diarrhea

43:59

for no reason, you can't find a, you

44:01

know, western medical diagnosis for

44:04

your problem. It just kinda gets

44:06

worse and worse and worse and stuff.

44:08

Wow. All of that came from that first

44:09

attack. Oh my gosh. So so this kinda begs

44:11

the question. Like like if there's those type

44:14

of of people or or

44:16

shamans or folks who know how to direct

44:19

that energy. For example, you're at

44:21

in the Amazon and then you've

44:23

got some Western Ayahuasca

44:26

tourists showing up to

44:28

have medicine served to

44:30

Like, are are people at risk when they're coming down and doing stuff like that?

44:32

I think anytime

44:33

people use these these substances or these

44:36

plants, there's a kind of risk associated

44:38

with it. And you

44:40

want to make sure that if

44:42

you're gonna do something that's risky like drive a

44:44

car, you wanna make sure that you have good safety

44:46

measures in place and use a seat

44:48

belt. Right? And if you're gonna go an that

44:50

the airline and the

44:52

entire team behind that airplane has

44:54

everything set up for you to

44:56

be

44:56

safe. Right? And to

44:58

get from point a to point b. And so in

45:00

the case of, you know, coming down

45:02

to the Amazon and experiencing this, you

45:05

have to find like really credible,

45:08

responsible people with integrity

45:10

to be able to host these kinds of

45:12

experiences for you that also have a long

45:16

track record in holding a very safe place who know

45:18

how to keep all of that kind of

45:20

stuff out of your space and out

45:22

of

45:23

your experience. What what's it been like being down

45:26

there and seeing at

45:28

least from what

45:30

I perceive the

45:32

massive increase in popularity of

45:35

people wanting to come down

45:37

to the Amazon and do

45:40

medicine? What's what's the impact been

45:42

like either environmentally or

45:44

societally? Or what what have you witnessed over the

45:46

past several years as far as the

45:48

increasing

45:48

popularity? Yeah. There's tremendous positives and negatives around the increasing

45:50

popularity. The positives are that

45:52

this aspect of this culture, these

45:54

cultures from the Amazon is now

45:58

interesting and and it's gone and it's kind of

46:00

popularity, which is actually really important to

46:02

preserve the cultures. So when I first

46:04

got down there, the cultures were dying.

46:07

And people didn't wanna go through the

46:09

training processes anymore to really learn at the

46:11

plants or they didn't understand why you

46:13

would wanna go learn this

46:15

versus, you know, get some

46:18

aspirin from the medical outpost or

46:20

something. So the positives are the

46:22

propagation in their own culture of keeping

46:24

their own cultural

46:26

heritage alive, keeping their medicines alive for the people, which actually have global

46:28

benefit. So I think that there's

46:30

tremendous benefit there. The negatives, of

46:32

course, are what

46:34

happens when you,

46:36

you know, have an unregulated industry

46:38

and all of a sudden everybody's

46:40

an expert when in reality varied

46:42

if you are. And so you get a tremendous number

46:44

of Charlotte tenants. And you get a

46:46

tremendous amount of expansion of

46:48

untrained use of these plants

46:50

and these kinds of healing

46:51

techniques. And in reality

46:54

to learn you

46:55

have to go through at least a five

46:57

year, maybe ten, possibly fifteen year

47:00

apprenticeship, which is the equivalent of, like,

47:02

you know, undergraduate education, med school, and then

47:04

residency. So same concept

47:06

for the real

47:07

practitioners. It's a ten to

47:09

twenty year process.

47:11

To

47:11

really take it to the top level of what the

47:14

community is respected and also

47:16

needed. And

47:16

you just don't see that anymore.

47:19

So now you have a situation

47:21

where Charlotteans are, you know,

47:23

going around, like, glorified bartenders

47:25

saying, this is Ayahuasca. Just

47:27

let the Ayahuasca do it. You're losing

47:29

all of the practices, all of the safety, all of the ancient techniques that

47:31

have been handed down for thousands

47:33

of

47:33

years. And I think that's really the

47:36

the concern. What's

47:38

an example of an ancient technique passed down over

47:40

thousands of years that that folks

47:42

might just not know about?

47:45

Truly being able to continuously

47:48

guide the visionary and trans

47:50

experience to the purpose

47:52

of

47:52

healing. So that, you know, your

47:54

group of people there, you know,

47:55

if five, ten, fifteen people who are all seeking

47:57

this kind of actual

48:00

positive real transformation

48:02

need to have a leader there

48:04

who knows how to take them through that

48:06

experience literally step by step. And

48:10

take them from a place of illness to

48:12

a place of healing. And

48:14

it's not a crapshoot. It's not hit

48:16

or miss. The trained practitioners know exactly,

48:18

we can week out how to create that for

48:20

people just like Western medical doctors know

48:22

how to practice their medicine.

48:24

Yeah. And if you just serve to people like a

48:27

glorified bartender, it's a crapshoot and

48:29

something that I consider

48:31

to be dangerous. Now, does

48:34

everybody use use

48:36

like song and music as a part of the

48:38

experience for

48:38

healing? Or is that also one of the more ancient tactics that

48:40

you have to be trained to know how to do?

48:42

No. That's definitely an ancient tactic. The echros or the chance

48:45

that you hear associated with the practices

48:47

are both passed down

48:49

generation after generation and

48:52

have been proven to work and have a very specific purpose. You

48:54

can think of them like individual apps

48:58

that actually do something. They

49:00

run a certain kind of code through

49:02

that ceremony. It's not just listening

49:04

to nice sounds or

49:06

music or even, you know, dissonance sounds. And

49:08

and it's actually purposeful.

49:10

The training associated with

49:14

learning that craft or that art to be able to know

49:16

how and when to use different

49:18

kinds of eGros and ceremonies, takes

49:20

years, takes years of training

49:22

and dedication,

49:24

and it's a true art form in its own. Right? How come AAA

49:26

shaman wouldn't just be able to, like,

49:29

let's say, do a

49:32

a digital recording of an ancient e ghost and just play that

49:34

even if they hadn't been trained to do

49:35

it. Is there a difference? There certainly

49:38

is

49:39

a difference. There's a difference in

49:42

being able to create the sounds in real

49:44

time. And there's a a

49:46

transference of consciousness and

49:48

energy in

49:49

the room itself. And

49:50

you digitize sound, you lose a tremendous amount of

49:52

the fidelity, and I

49:53

think that's just like a nuance to the nature of it.

49:56

I tried. I spent many years studying how to

49:58

be able digitize this

50:00

and be able to, you

50:02

know, expand the practices and and

50:04

share it with people in a positive and and

50:06

healthy way. On the other side of it, you also don't know

50:08

when you're supposed to use each

50:10

different ePRO or each each

50:12

different app. So if you just create a playlist

50:14

of it, your

50:16

experience. It's very different than somebody

50:19

live offering an understanding

50:21

of why this one

50:23

versus that one. What's going on right now with

50:25

everybody in the room or this one person that they're

50:27

working with to make sure that that is

50:30

the

50:30

appropriate. Invocation

50:32

or the appropriate eco to be using at that time. Yeah.

50:34

Is it true that that certain

50:38

shamans are

50:40

able to I don't know if possess

50:42

influence someone or have influence

50:44

over them even after they've let the

50:46

experience, let's say someone travels to the Amazon

50:48

and comes

50:50

back because I've had friends who have discussed even

50:52

publicly the idea that they feel like they've

50:54

been have been possessed by

50:56

an entity or that they

50:59

almost need kind of like exercise, like experience.

51:02

Is that something that that

51:04

occurs? I think rarely,

51:05

I think more typically

51:08

is that there's a culture of some kind

51:10

of foul play associated

51:12

between the energies of the practitioners

51:14

and the

51:16

participants. And the participants often want lot

51:18

to the practitioners some kind of

51:21

extraordinary value or

51:24

extraordinary you

51:26

know, power. And I think that that's exactly the

51:29

wrong

51:29

idea. Right? I

51:30

think that you're going to somebody looking

51:32

for support and help. You

51:35

are one hundred percent unique and intact

51:38

yourself. And somebody's gonna help

51:40

you. You know, you can be very grateful for that. You

51:42

could even

51:44

you know, feel a, like, a tremendous gratitude for

51:47

that. But ultimately, that person who is

51:49

there to help you, that's what

51:51

they're there for. And I

51:54

think there's this like hybridized scenario

51:56

now where you get a little bit

51:58

of like guru worship or there's, you know,

52:00

too much given over to the practitioner.

52:03

And then the practitioners, some of them

52:05

may take advantage of that. And in the

52:07

worst case scenario, like you're describing, yes,

52:09

they try to use spirituality.

52:11

They tried to use energies and entities

52:14

to be able to influence, you

52:16

know, a participant which we consider

52:18

to be complete lack

52:20

of integrity and

52:21

malpractice. Yeah.

52:22

So it's important to understand that that

52:25

would be the equivalent of, like, a western

52:27

doctor doing something that would make them lose their license. That'd

52:29

be the same thing as, like, a lawyer

52:31

doing something completely unethical and then losing

52:33

their license. Yeah. So if we heard about

52:35

that ourselves, like, this shaman

52:38

practitioner used some kind of like

52:40

magic over a guest and then

52:42

the guest went home and now felt like

52:45

they needed some kind of exorcism or some kind of,

52:47

like, possession scenario to be released for them. That

52:49

would be considered malpractice. That person

52:51

should no longer be allowed

52:53

to

52:53

practice. But because this is unregulated, there's no way to

52:56

then ultimately be able to stop them. Do

52:58

you have any

52:59

other thoughts about staying spiritually? Safe

53:02

and protected in that space. So when

53:05

people are engaged in the

53:07

use of Ayahuasca or their

53:09

plant medicines, like our

53:12

are there things that you've witnessed allow

53:14

people to be more protected

53:16

in that

53:17

space? Sure. The protections

53:20

that people

53:21

can use the ones that you really have

53:24

innate to

53:24

you. The first one is your heart. And

53:26

your heart is the center of love

53:29

and tremendous power. And it's

53:32

something that gets awakened within the experiences.

53:34

The other is to go

53:36

to the plants themselves and ask them for

53:38

their

53:39

protection. And to think that the plants

53:41

have the ability

53:42

pardon me, and the experience to be able

53:44

to offer that. So you wanna be able to

53:46

go to your heart as like a safe place, place

53:49

of absolute protection and love for

53:51

yourself. And then you wanna ask the plants

53:53

for for the protections that they can bestow

53:56

on you within that

53:57

experience. I think most important though is your

53:59

connection to source. No one

54:01

can take

54:02

your connection from source from you.

54:04

What's

54:05

a connection to source? Like your

54:07

true faith and true belief in God or your true

54:09

faith and true belief in the power

54:11

of this universe. I

54:15

kind of equate the idea of source and is exactly the

54:17

same. So this

54:20

idea that that there is

54:22

something powerful and greater

54:24

that is the creator of all and the creator

54:26

of this universe

54:28

and that that creator can give you you

54:30

extraordinary safety and

54:31

protection. And and so for

54:33

for you, what's that look like?

54:35

Is that like prayer or

54:38

song or is is there a practice

54:40

that that you engage in on a

54:42

daily basis to maintain your connection to

54:44

God? I think prayer is a great one. I think how people pray is

54:46

obviously a question of what

54:48

you were laid to. But I

54:52

really believe in the idea of direct

54:54

communication and that when

54:56

you go into deep concentration

54:58

and focus, and you

55:00

express yourself with absolute

55:02

honesty and truth to

55:04

god that you are heard.

55:07

I believe that a hundred percent. I have absolutely

55:09

no doubt about that. And

55:12

that that as you establish that

55:14

connection through that practice, which could

55:16

be deeply meditative. It could

55:18

be prayer in the way that religion teaches

55:20

it. It could be your

55:22

own style. As long as it is to

55:24

and to source, to this

55:26

universe, to this, you know, immaculate

55:28

creation that

55:30

you have something that is that is truly

55:32

magnificent. And in that

55:34

magnificent, you can grow that connection.

55:36

Mhmm. And so a daily practice of

55:38

it is

55:40

to to practice it daily. It's to take anywhere

55:42

from five minutes a couple times a day

55:44

to to fifteen, twenty minutes and establish

55:47

and build that connection to God. Yeah. What's that

55:50

look like for you? Do do you do you

55:52

wake up in the morning? And is that

55:54

one of

55:55

one of the first parts of your day or for you is

55:57

it it throughout the day is it an evening practice?

55:59

Or what does your own spiritual

56:01

practice

56:01

look like? Well, my spiritual practice on a daily basis is really

56:04

broken up into very small chunks of

56:06

time because I'm very

56:08

busy with the activities that I have.

56:11

So I'm involved in a number of different projects and stuff. So I

56:14

think like a lot of us, I have a very, very busy

56:16

day to day life. And in

56:18

that, then I get these

56:20

brief moments I get five minutes here, two minutes there, ten minutes

56:22

another place, you know. And then I use them when I get

56:24

that opportunity to reaffirm

56:26

that connection. But I've done

56:28

this for so long now that I feel like

56:30

I'm I'm a living experience of

56:32

that

56:32

connection. I never feel like the connections

56:35

lost or And so I reaffirm the connection. So it's not I

56:37

have to reconnect. I'm always connected, but

56:40

I want my mind to know it because I've been, you

56:42

know, doing a bunch of things on a computer

56:44

or I've been, you know, of

56:46

meetings, etcetera. Right? So I just I

56:48

just go back to that connection and

56:50

express my unbelievable gratitude and

56:52

love. And that it's based my

56:54

my practice is based in

56:56

absolute

56:56

unconditional love for for divinity.

56:59

Yeah. That

56:59

kinda reminds me of a guy,

57:02

a faith Taylor who I interviewed a couple of years ago named I saw an

57:04

inmate who lives up in Ohio.

57:06

And at one point, while he was

57:08

treating me, he just kind of this

57:10

mix of of intention

57:12

setting and electric acupuncture

57:14

and prayer and hands on

57:16

healing. So obviously, kind of a unique

57:18

practice, old book written about him. I forget.

57:21

But I'll I'll link to his my interview with him in the show notes. So

57:23

folks go to ben greenfield life dot

57:25

com slash hamilton And

57:28

I remember as he was working on me, he he

57:30

commented and said something like

57:32

basically his life is prayer. And

57:35

his his life is connection to God meaning like he

57:38

doesn't separate his

57:40

work hours and his client hours

57:42

and his patient hours and his family

57:44

dinner hours or whatever else from his devotional practice

57:46

or his spiritual life. It's

57:49

just all one constant connection

57:52

to God and and listening to

57:54

God and and passing the love of

57:57

God through his hands when he's working on

57:59

patience and being in constant daily

58:02

prayer and union with God and

58:04

not considering time with God to

58:06

be something that

58:08

is simply what you

58:10

do during a morning devotional

58:12

practice or during an evening prayer.

58:14

And that instead, you know, life is

58:16

prayer and life is connection to

58:18

God. And I certainly won't deny the I think the

58:20

importance of carving out, like, an

58:22

intentional, almost

58:24

liturgical set

58:26

and setting each day to connect with God. But then I think that if

58:28

if you consider that to be the connection, then

58:30

you step away and hang up the phone,

58:33

and walk away and maybe come back up and call

58:35

God up later on that evening, that that's

58:37

a really almost like pitiful

58:40

way to to be in

58:42

constant daily union with God

58:44

versus basically expressing the

58:46

the love of God and your connection to God

58:48

through everything, every step that you take during the day. And

58:50

I think that if you can do that, then

58:52

then you can really better

58:56

sense God's voice, you know, in

58:58

your conscience, and better sense God's intention

59:00

for your life, and better sense God's calling, and

59:02

better sense God's warnings,

59:04

and better be able to identify what what is and is not the

59:06

voice of God. And

59:06

so, yeah, I think that's a really beautiful way

59:09

to live. Yeah. I I

59:11

appreciate that tremendously. The

59:13

idea of that of flow with God

59:16

leads right into then the ceremonial

59:18

practices. Yeah. You know, and in my case, I'm

59:20

I said this part of my healing work with

59:22

people

59:23

also part of the coaching work that

59:25

I do

59:26

that, you know, ultimately, I experienced

59:28

that for, you know, the kind

59:30

of focused, devotional practice that you're talking

59:32

about. At different times from anywhere from like four

59:35

to five hours, kinda every other night.

59:37

You know? So it's about fifteen

59:39

times, I would say, anywhere from twelve to

59:41

fifteen times a month, I'm in in this kind

59:43

of very intense environment where we're calling upon

59:46

god and divinity in all

59:48

of its

59:50

different forms. To be able to ultimately help and support everybody and keep

59:52

them protected and safe while they go through these

59:54

transformational experiences. Yeah. So I

59:56

think the flow state goes goes right

59:58

into the devotional

1:00:00

practice and from the devotional practice

1:00:02

is right into that flow state again. And

1:00:04

then you can really

1:00:06

keep

1:00:07

that that extraordinary lens in your

1:00:09

consciousness awake to guidance and

1:00:10

support that's

1:00:11

always available to us. Yes,

1:00:13

I fully agree. Now,

1:00:16

you're obviously pretty involved in

1:00:18

this whole world of plant medicines

1:00:20

and and Ayahuasca and the other things

1:00:23

that we discussed so far, Hamilton, I'm

1:00:26

curious where do you see the future of all this

1:00:28

going? I mean, we obviously have everything

1:00:30

from Spirit Tech, right,

1:00:32

like people combining light and sound stimulation

1:00:34

machines and haptic sensations with the use of plant medicines.

1:00:37

We have companies like, say,

1:00:39

you know, Phil Tripp Health,

1:00:41

you know, delivering ketamine

1:00:44

trophies to people's homes

1:00:46

and having them, you know, sit with an app

1:00:48

and do, you know,

1:00:50

ceremonies and their homes. And then, of course, we have people the

1:00:52

traditional route of traveling to

1:00:54

the Amazon. And then others,

1:00:58

I certainly carved out this

1:01:00

path over the past year who are, you

1:01:02

know, I've distanced myself from a lot

1:01:04

of the deep journey with plant medicine

1:01:06

just because of my own combination

1:01:08

of fear and and deep

1:01:10

respect for the spiritual

1:01:12

world that one can step into

1:01:15

and and my fear for many people

1:01:17

who just have no business being in that space or just using

1:01:19

it very casually coming back and getting

1:01:22

harmed. And so that, you know, there's all

1:01:24

sorts of of different things

1:01:26

going on in the whole industry.

1:01:28

But I'm curious for you what

1:01:30

you're most excited about or

1:01:32

interested in as far as the future

1:01:34

of where plant medicine or Ayahuasca is actually

1:01:36

going right

1:01:36

now. I think the most interesting part

1:01:38

of

1:01:38

the future is where science and

1:01:41

plant medicine come together.

1:01:44

And this

1:01:45

incredible explosion in science that's happened over the

1:01:47

last twenty to thirty years gets

1:01:49

to be guided and directed

1:01:51

to plant medicines. And

1:01:53

see that happening completely in the clinical sense,

1:01:56

like the studies that are happening

1:01:57

at, you know, John Hopkins

1:01:59

and stuff like that, you know,

1:02:01

so I see that on the complete clinical side, psychedelic assisted therapy, there will

1:02:03

be purpose in that, but there will

1:02:05

also be this of

1:02:08

science and traditional flat medicine practices.

1:02:10

And I've also heard of a lot of groups

1:02:12

very interested in going into

1:02:14

that and studying that. And I

1:02:16

think that's what's really interesting is to actually move beyond the

1:02:19

way that the indigenous people

1:02:21

describe the experiences and the

1:02:23

way these, you know, spiritual

1:02:26

travelers who've who've experimented with

1:02:28

this and have experienced it as a

1:02:30

form of healing can actually not describe

1:02:32

it in a way and in a common language that everyone will be

1:02:34

able to understand, and that we could get real statistics and

1:02:37

data on what it

1:02:39

does which ones do exactly what

1:02:42

incredibly well, you know, from the

1:02:44

psychological mental healing

1:02:47

stuff to the physical healing capacities of it, and

1:02:50

then really find the benefits from it. I

1:02:52

think that's

1:02:53

really most exciting. Now, you

1:02:55

know, related to that whole scientific aspect. What what about,

1:02:57

you know, like I mentioned, field trip, I

1:02:59

know they're developing an analog

1:03:02

of civil cybin that interacts with the 5HTA receptors in the same

1:03:04

way, but has a much shorter onset time and

1:03:06

a shorter peak time. With

1:03:08

Ayahuasca, you know, I know that there's

1:03:10

the far

1:03:12

pharmaceutical version, pharma wasca, which I think has been around

1:03:14

for a little while as

1:03:16

a more kind of like targeted synthetic

1:03:19

version. Like, what do you think about a lot of the synthetics the

1:03:22

natural plant medicines? I think my

1:03:24

biggest concern about the synthetics are what

1:03:26

you're losing from the plant

1:03:28

if you're only focused on the psychoactive properties. And then, you

1:03:30

know, the tweaking of those psychoactive properties to

1:03:33

the kind of experience that you're trying to create.

1:03:35

So I I think that that has

1:03:38

a purpose. And I think it has merit going forward. But

1:03:40

I don't think that that's the only study that needs

1:03:42

to be done. I think we need to

1:03:44

understand all of the different chemicals that are inside

1:03:46

the plants

1:03:48

and the kind of chemical interplay cocktail

1:03:50

that's created, and ultimately study

1:03:52

them to try to understand from the

1:03:54

trace molecules all the way to the

1:03:57

most pronounced psychoactive wands, how

1:04:00

they all work together and have evolved

1:04:02

together. And then from

1:04:04

that, understand what combinations of those are very potent and

1:04:06

important to the transformational

1:04:08

process or transformational healing that someone's

1:04:11

looking for. And so I just you have

1:04:13

to upon that. Yeah. It is interesting.

1:04:16

I

1:04:16

think there's it's a it's entirely different experience

1:04:18

with synthetics versus the natural

1:04:22

plants. Least in in my own experience, it seems like the synthetics

1:04:24

are a bit more

1:04:26

predictable, kinda like in

1:04:28

your head, a little less,

1:04:30

you know, like, spiritual

1:04:32

and almost, like, wild compared to some

1:04:34

of the some of the plant

1:04:35

derivatives. Have you ever thought about or

1:04:37

experienced anything like that? But I

1:04:39

think that the plants are unique in their own right

1:04:41

because they're part of this incredible

1:04:43

evolution of life.

1:04:46

And they've had a purpose, including the purpose that they have

1:04:48

to propagate themselves. And so they have

1:04:51

their own energy, they have

1:04:53

their own spirit, And when you

1:04:56

use psychoactive plants, people talk

1:04:58

about interacting with the plant in a

1:05:00

consciousness based way, not just an

1:05:02

interaction on a

1:05:04

chemical I think that when we talk

1:05:06

about the chemical based ones, the

1:05:08

synthetic ones, or the pharmaceutical ones, you

1:05:10

typically don't care of that same of

1:05:12

reverence or interaction associated with

1:05:14

the substance

1:05:15

itself, and it becomes more about the

1:05:17

experience that's being triggered.

1:05:19

I don't think one's better or the other. I just think that

1:05:21

they both pose different kinds of risks, and

1:05:24

then you need to understand

1:05:26

the best way to be able to protect

1:05:28

against those risks that you can always have

1:05:30

the safest

1:05:31

experience. Yeah. Interesting. You're just

1:05:33

a wealth of information on this stuff. And I

1:05:35

know that you have a new book coming out

1:05:37

too. It's called what's called the mystical secrets of Ayahuasca? Yeah.

1:05:40

The mystical secrets of Ayahuasca was

1:05:42

published yesterday

1:05:44

on Amazon actually. So yeah.

1:05:46

We just we just finally released

1:05:47

it. Cool. I'll link to that in the

1:05:50

show notes for for people

1:05:52

to check out. And then

1:05:54

Blue Morpho is the name of your

1:05:56

place in is is that also in

1:05:57

Peru? Yeah.

1:05:57

Blue Morfo is in Peru. We're located out of

1:05:59

the city of

1:06:02

Iquitos. It's a beautiful place in the Amazon. It's really a a

1:06:04

sort of a gateway into the

1:06:06

entire Peruvian Amazon up in the northeast of

1:06:08

the

1:06:08

country. And it's a, yeah, really incredible

1:06:12

to be truly magical. Cool. Cool. Well, I'll link to all your stuff.

1:06:14

And if you're listening in, you have

1:06:17

questions for Hamilton or myself,

1:06:20

Things you wanna add to this discussion topics that that you would like

1:06:22

to see visited in the future about this. You

1:06:24

can leave them all at ben greenfield

1:06:27

life dot com slash hamilton.

1:06:30

That's ben greenfield life dot com slash hamilton.

1:06:33

And hamilton, thanks so much for coming on the

1:06:35

show man and sharing this

1:06:37

stuff with

1:06:38

us. Ben,

1:06:38

it's been a pleasure. Thanks so much for having me on and always look forward

1:06:41

to talking with you. Awesome. Alright folks.

1:06:43

I'm Ben Greenfield along

1:06:45

with Hamilton Tyler. Signing out

1:06:47

from vanguardlife dot com. Have an amazing

1:06:49

week. Just imagine a hotel

1:06:52

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1:07:01

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1:07:38

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1:07:42

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1:07:44

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1:08:51

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People like you, Rimini, a fresh, entertaining,

1:09:07

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1:09:11

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1:09:14

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1:09:16

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