0:05

I'm David Brown, and

0:07

this is Business

0:28

Wars HAVE COME A LONG WAY.

0:31

FOR MORE THAN one hundred YEARS NOW, THESE HORTELESS

0:33

CARRIJES AS THEY USE TO CALL THEM HAVE

0:36

TAKEN US from point a to point b, and

0:38

they've grown more powerful every year.

0:41

Mister Ford and mister Chrysler may have

0:43

gotten the party started at the turn of the century,

0:45

but about fifty years later, mister

0:48

Honda and mister Toyota came

0:50

in to really shake things up, putting

0:52

Japanese car manufacturers on the map.

0:55

Since the nineteen fifties, Honda and Toyota

0:57

have made quite thin names for themselves in

0:59

the United States and around the world.

1:01

It's easy to see why. Their

1:03

models are practical, affordable, and

1:06

seemed to last forever, making them

1:08

a popular choice for the middle class

1:10

family vehicle. But

1:11

can these brands last on reputation

1:14

alone? Well,

1:15

the reality is our relationship to

1:17

our cars is changing. Rising

1:19

gas prices and inventory shortages

1:22

have folks rethinking whether they need

1:24

to get behind the wheel in the first place.

1:27

At the same time, electric vehicle

1:29

sales are booming, but

1:31

Toyota and Honda have

1:33

sat idling next to competitors

1:35

who seem fully charged and ready

1:37

to go. Here to help us understand where

1:39

all this is headed is Wall Street Journal

1:41

Auto's editor, Christina Rogers. She's

1:44

covered the industry for more than a decade,

1:46

interviewing leaders from the world's top

1:48

auto manufacturers. We'll

1:50

look at Toyota and Honda today. and

1:53

check out what's on the horizon in

1:55

the years to come. All that's

1:57

just ahead.

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3:30

Christina Rogers welcome to Business Wars.

3:32

Thank you for having me. Well, thank you for

3:34

joining us. I have a little bit of a

3:36

theory and it gets to why

3:38

people are so car

3:40

crazy at least in America. And that is that

3:43

in a way, I think cars a

3:45

lot of us see cars as kind of an extension

3:48

of ourselves in a sense. Did

3:51

did you agree with that? Yeah.

3:52

Definitely. They're Lowe this mixture of,

3:54

like, an appliance, a

3:56

status symbol, you know,

3:58

kind of part

3:59

of your personality,

3:59

the

4:00

and not to mention you spend a lot of time

4:02

in those. Well, given that we're

4:04

talking about how they're an extension of ourselves,

4:07

is there a car you would consider to

4:09

be your

4:10

favorite or your best or

4:12

or one that, you know, maybe you've had

4:14

one that you just loved the

4:17

door, didn't you wish you could have it back? Or

4:19

what do you have one of those?

4:20

I have

4:22

a couple, actually. Yeah. I

4:25

my one of my first cars is Jeep

4:27

Cherokee, and I just

4:30

you know, the original one, I think it

4:32

wasn't eighty

4:32

nine. Oh, with

4:33

the wood paneling on the side and all of that? Yes.

4:36

Yes.

4:36

I mean, it's just such a classic

4:38

and there's so many memories

4:40

in that, you know, is the first kind of

4:42

real SUV. So you could pack a lot of

4:44

people and it's really

4:46

packing all my friends in it? Nastasia.

4:48

I mean, that's a huge driver in a

4:50

lot of this, isn't it? Yes.

4:51

Yes. Certainly. There is

4:54

a ton of nostalgia. I

4:56

mean, every one kind of

4:57

remembers their first car. But you said

4:59

there was more than just one that

5:01

specialty.

5:02

Yeah. I mean, there's you know,

5:05

there was the Mazda three. It was a

5:07

little compact car. I just loved

5:09

Lowe the design, still do.

5:11

And I am very much in love with my

5:13

car right I have an Audi A40

5:15

nice.

5:17

What is it that you like about that

5:19

A40I

5:19

just I remember seeing

5:21

it at a car show and just

5:24

just I thought it was just gorgeous.

5:26

I think Audi's

5:27

I love how they drive their, like,

5:29

butter. They're so

5:30

smooth. Now, I have to ask

5:33

you, you mentioned the Mazda, which I agree.

5:35

I think it's not just

5:37

not just an appliance as you put it, you know, where

5:39

you get from point to point b. Mhmm. But

5:41

it's it's a zippy car. I

5:43

mean, it feels like it's designed

5:45

to be a driver's car. You know what

5:47

I'm talking about?

5:48

Oh, yeah. I mean, it definitely lives up to

5:50

the Zoom Zoom. Zoom

5:51

Zoom.

5:53

Yeah. I mean,

5:55

actually, our our other car is a

5:57

Mazda. it's a big SUV,

5:59

but

5:59

one of the reasons why we

6:02

decided to go with Mazda is because

6:05

even though it's a big SUV, it's still

6:07

got that, like, Zoom

6:08

and, like, the real tight handling. You

6:11

know, I've never I've never understood why

6:13

it is that Mazda isn't

6:15

thought of in the same way that,

6:17

say, the two stars of our series,

6:19

you know, Toyota and and Honda, they're

6:22

not moist is always sort of

6:24

a back seat to it even though

6:26

arguably the Mazda is much

6:28

more sort of driver focused whereas

6:31

and Honda seem to be much more in

6:33

that spectrum, much more of an

6:35

appliance. What do you think? I

6:36

actually find that kind of baffling as well

6:38

because I think Mazda's

6:40

are very good looking. They're very sporty.

6:43

Price points pretty similar. I don't

6:45

know. Maybe they just they have a smaller

6:47

footprint in terms of dealerships. in

6:49

the

6:49

United States, not might be it? Well,

6:51

maybe this gets to the history of it. I mean,

6:54

because Toyota and Honda

6:56

both very much pioneers when it

6:58

came to introducing Japanese

7:01

cars on American highways. Right?

7:03

Yeah. I mean, I do think there's a lot

7:05

in the brand recognition. I mean,

7:07

both Toyota and on that, they're just

7:09

so well known for their quality, their

7:11

reliability, and they

7:13

were early here. So,

7:15

I mean, I think that has some of it.

7:17

you know,

7:17

it's just hard. It takes a lot for someone

7:20

to say, oh, I've owned a bunch of I'm

7:22

gonna try out a Mazda. You know?

7:24

to make that leap.

7:26

Where are Toyota and Honda

7:29

today? I mean, obviously, two

7:31

of the biggest brands and certainly

7:33

tons of brand recognition. And

7:35

as we've been exploring, I mean, a real rivalry

7:37

over the years, who's in first and who's

7:39

in second?

7:40

Well, I would say, I think you've got

7:42

to kind of look at things like a little bit

7:44

pre pandemic and during

7:46

the pandemic. But pre pandemic, I

7:49

mean, those two brands, if anything, are

7:51

steady. During the pandemic, you

7:53

know, things just went haywire. I

7:55

mean, big thing that we saw is

7:57

big Wars

8:00

And, you know,

8:02

a

8:02

lot of times you hear about semiconductors,

8:05

that was Hernan that

8:07

was and continues to be

8:09

a big problem for the industry. Existing

8:12

as far as ship shortage you're talking

8:14

about.

8:14

the chip shortage, yes. But

8:17

other parts,

8:18

especially in the early days

8:20

of the pandemic, it was just really hard

8:22

to get your hands on certain parts.

8:24

Computer chips were a big one, but, you

8:26

know, we had production lines

8:28

going down right and left. And so

8:30

the companies that were able

8:33

to kind of work around the

8:35

part shortages better than others,

8:37

they started, like, picking

8:38

up market share coming

8:40

ahead,

8:41

those, like, GM and

8:44

Ford, you know, they really were having

8:46

trouble, and you could see, like, their sales

8:48

were dropping. And because they didn't have

8:50

cars. Yeah.

8:50

And in fact, what Wars us to sell,

8:53

you know. And what they did have

8:55

were just parked you know,

8:57

in huge parking lots because they're

8:59

waiting for chips to arrive or parts to

9:01

arrive because of the, you know, supply

9:03

chain. Yes. You

9:03

know, you'd see these aerial shots of,

9:05

like, parking lots outside of, like,

9:07

racetracks and, like, fucking fields

9:09

and outside the plants, like,

9:11

just filled with trucks. just

9:13

waiting for, like, you know,

9:14

one or two parts so they could be

9:17

shipped to the dealer. So the companies that were

9:19

able to kind

9:20

of work around those, keep building,

9:23

keep delivering their cars to dealerships,

9:26

and keep selling them. you know, they

9:28

fared better through the pandemic

9:30

and, you know, among those Toyota,

9:32

they picked up a lot of market share

9:34

during

9:35

the pandemic. And at one point,

9:37

they outsold

9:38

GM. So they

9:39

became the number one car seller

9:41

in the

9:42

United States for the first time

9:44

that since flipped back. Honda

9:47

during the pandemic, they had a little bit

9:49

of a rougher go I mean,

9:50

I think between the two of

9:53

them, it's

9:53

been always pretty steady.

9:56

Again, like, we're in a really,

9:58

really unprecedented times now

9:59

in the car market. Right. It's hard

10:02

to say how long this is gonna last. You

10:04

know, when you talk to Toyota about

10:06

beating GM, they're very humble about

10:08

it. They're like, Yeah. But that was just

10:10

a quirk. So

10:11

That's interesting. Yeah.

10:13

No.

10:13

They're very like, they're very humble

10:16

about it. Meanwhile, if it was forward

10:18

overtaking GM, they'd be pretty happy.

10:19

Oh, yeah. They'd be mocking

10:22

their horns. Yes.

10:25

Absolutely. Well, you know, there's one other aspect

10:27

of this Toyota Honda Both of

10:29

these brands are household names,

10:31

but Of course, you know, you don't have to

10:33

wind back the clock too much to see, you

10:35

know, it just wasn't always that way.

10:37

I mean, imported cars in

10:39

the states. really didn't start catching

10:41

on until about fifty years ago.

10:43

Once upon a time, and this was a big part of

10:45

the of the car culture narrative in

10:47

the United States, Americans Lowe their

10:49

big cars with v eight engines

10:51

and, you know, bigger was better. But

10:53

things changed. And, you know, when

10:55

Toyota was introduced in this country, it

10:57

was considered flat out, too

10:59

small, something that Americans just

11:01

wouldn't couldn't imagine themselves, couldn't

11:03

picture a family in a in a

11:05

Honda once upon a time. How did how did the

11:07

import market change the game for

11:09

American consumers do you think? The

11:11

turning point

11:11

really, I think, was in the nineteen seventies.

11:14

you know, you had kind of the

11:16

air embargo and

11:18

oil. That was around the time when the

11:20

government I think that those were the first

11:22

fuel economy regulations. came

11:24

into play. I think

11:25

it like, the mid seventies. The

11:28

cafe standards. Yeah.

11:29

Cafe standards. Yep. Speak

11:32

the lingo.

11:33

corporate average fuel economy

11:35

was what I think that stood for. Yeah. Yes.

11:37

Yes. And so I

11:39

think that, like, fuel

11:41

economy you know,

11:43

up until that point wasn't really

11:45

really something on your shopping list.

11:47

And then all of a sudden, you know,

11:49

became kind

11:51

of like was on

11:53

the minds of a lot of consumers, and

11:56

that's where those two brands

11:59

excelled. And

11:59

not

11:59

only that, I mean, like, the

12:02

quality, the reliability, it's just

12:04

so stood out

12:05

with those two.

12:07

I mean, I know the Detroit

12:09

companies, like, really, really, Lowe, recognize

12:12

that, trying to learn from it, and,

12:14

you know, really change the industry.

12:16

You know, you're you're making an interesting

12:18

point because on the one hand, you can

12:20

clearly see how government

12:23

intervention sort of changed the game

12:25

and opened up some doors for Toyota

12:27

versus Honda. But you're based in Detroit.

12:29

And you know how attitudes

12:32

changed Detroit for a long time dragged its

12:34

heels on increasing fuel

12:36

efficiency because they said you just can't

12:38

do it. Toyota

12:38

and Honda showed you can and you

12:41

can sell even

12:42

in America. I mean, this

12:44

had to have been in the long haul

12:47

a good thing, not just for

12:49

Toyota and Honda, but for

12:51

American carmakers too.

12:53

Yeah. I mean, over

12:55

time, it was here's my kind of

12:57

understanding of things, like, at

12:59

first, when some of

13:01

those

13:01

new fuel economy regulations came

13:04

online, I mean, the truck

13:05

carmakers had to, like, rush out

13:07

to put out smaller cars, downsized

13:09

his engines, and they just really put out

13:12

some crummy cars. in

13:14

contrast that really elevated

13:16

Honda and Toyota. Well, the Chevy

13:18

citation. That's all you need to say. Chevy citation

13:20

is compacting us to fit into three

13:23

quarters of a parking space and offer

13:25

gas mileage estimates you would expect from a

13:27

smaller car. Chipotle citation.

13:29

Right? I mean, some of these things are, yeah,

13:31

sort of, legendary legendary

13:33

Karen, I suppose you could say.

13:36

Yes. And and by comparison

13:37

Toyota and Honda were

13:40

reliable, efficient, and

13:42

just a lot cooler ultimately.

13:45

Yes. Yeah. And I think just like

13:47

and over time, I mean, I don't know,

13:49

you know, you can argue whether

13:51

the trade companies really caught

13:53

up on small cars.

13:54

They had their moments, but

13:56

really it was, you know,

13:57

those two companies that Toyota and

13:59

Honda who Lowe that market. But

14:01

they also did something when it came down

14:03

to reliability, dependability, quality,

14:06

control, I mean, there there were

14:08

there were Detroit executives visiting

14:10

Japan, visiting the factories

14:12

trying to find out what what was

14:14

it that the Japanese were getting right.

14:16

especially folks at Toyota Honda. You

14:18

you think US automakers have regained the

14:21

ground that they lost in the seventies and

14:23

eighties to foreign carmakers. But

14:25

nowadays, I have a sense that Detroit's

14:27

caught up a good bit

14:29

of what they lost back in the seventies and

14:31

eighties. In

14:31

market share, no, they have not caught

14:34

up. I

14:34

mean, or regain ground.

14:35

After the Japanese really

14:37

kind of, like,

14:39

made a push here, you could just

14:41

see the market share of the Detroit

14:43

three slide. I mean, I think that, like, eventually,

14:45

they caught up on how to make, you

14:48

know, a reasonable small car.

14:50

If you look at the JD power

14:53

quality study, the reliability studies,

14:55

Lowe, it's always Lowe the Japanese

14:58

kind of at the top. and

14:59

now more recently Honda are

15:02

ranking higher.

15:03

Christina Rogers is our gas sheet's

15:06

autos editor for The Wall Street Journal. Now when we

15:08

come back, we're gonna talk about how these

15:10

companies are or aren't keeping up

15:12

with the EV trans stay

15:14

with us.

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17:05

welcome

17:14

back to business wars. Our guest is Christina

17:16

Rogers. She's Auto's editor for The Wall Street

17:18

Journal. And recently team has been following

17:21

Toyota's plans for electric vehicles

17:23

since well, they've been somewhat late

17:25

to the game despite being early to

17:27

the party with hybrids. You know,

17:29

Christina, I remember back when Toyota seemed to

17:31

be leading the charge, unintended.

17:34

With with

17:34

the Prius, Right. And

17:36

here's one of their early commercials. It's been a long

17:39

time since transportation is

17:41

truly advanced. We've

17:43

been moving We just haven't

17:44

been moving forward. You know,

17:46

when the Prius was introduced, I mean, it

17:48

was very different, very

17:51

groundbreaking at the time. Do you remember when the

17:53

car launched? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Late

17:55

nineties. Right? Yeah. Wasn't

17:56

quite the looker. I will but

17:58

it just, like, it was so

17:59

different. But

18:01

you know, it was so distinct

18:03

and, you know, and I remember being, like,

18:05

kind of,

18:06

the status of all, like, you know,

18:09

all these celebrities and

18:09

Lowe like -- Yeah. --

18:10

getting and driving around Priuses. I

18:12

remember

18:13

too, South Park had a little episode

18:16

in which someone was driving a

18:18

Toyota pie. Right? That was Yes. I

18:20

remember that. Now there

18:22

goes the new high and mighty Drowlowski.

18:25

Yeah. Ever since he got that new

18:27

hybrid. He thinks he's better than everyone else. And

18:29

and in a way, again, we're talking

18:31

about perceptions here. There

18:33

there was something about, okay,

18:35

I'm saving the world and I'm

18:38

driving my way to a better place. But

18:40

I'm curious, why

18:42

the Prius seem to have

18:44

such staying power, especially

18:46

as other car makers sort

18:48

of started jumping on the hybrid.

18:50

dare I say bandwagon?

18:53

Yeah. I mean, Yes.

18:54

There were other hybrids, but, like,

18:57

I I feel like Toyota really

18:59

committed to it. You know, they committed to

19:01

that model. They

19:03

really promoted it. I think, like,

19:05

a lot of other companies, like, yeah. They did

19:07

hybrids, but they weren't really, like,

19:09

you know, really hyping them.

19:12

Mhmm. They

19:12

didn't seem to be as invested or

19:14

somehow. Something

19:15

Yeah. Yeah. And and they a lot of

19:18

them were kinda just variants of

19:21

other you

19:21

know, traditional gasoline nameplate. So

19:24

no. The Prius was, like, really unique in

19:26

that, like, it was the first, like, kind

19:28

of, you know,

19:29

you know

19:30

hybrid model with a capital h.

19:33

I would say that, like, the auto

19:35

industry Jeff general has kind of had

19:37

this this wishy washiness

19:39

towards these electrified vehicles for a long

19:41

time. I mean, now, you

19:43

know,

19:43

you hear all the

19:44

companies like, really fully committed

19:47

It's an electric future. We're going all

19:50

electric. We're Honda get rid of our

19:52

gasoline vehicles. But that's just Lowe only

19:54

recently. And I think Toyota in

19:56

a lot of ways stood out because they

19:58

made that commitment to the hybrid and

20:00

they pioneered it and

20:02

they really kind of stuck with, like, advertising

20:04

it and, you know, kind of

20:06

updating it, building out into

20:08

its own kind of, like, family of vehicles

20:10

too. Christina riddle

20:11

me this then. why is

20:13

it that Toyota, which was a leader in this,

20:15

you know, hybrid shift, they

20:18

don't seem to be all in when

20:20

it comes to cars or trucks

20:23

that are all electric. What's going on

20:25

there? You

20:25

know, at first glance, it

20:27

it feels that way and

20:30

certainly their executives get a

20:32

lot of questions. I think

20:34

maybe it's more of a nuanced answer. Not

20:36

long ago, we had a chance to

20:38

interview Acute

20:39

Toyota who is

20:40

the head of Toyota. Mhmm.

20:43

And

20:43

he was just peppered with questions

20:45

from journalists about are they more why aren't

20:47

you more committed about EVs?

20:50

And basically, from what Eidr says, like,

20:52

it's not that they don't aren't committed to

20:54

EVs. They are working on EVs.

20:57

They are putting money to it.

20:59

It's just that they believe that,

21:01

you know, hybrids are

21:03

gonna be kind of this like important

21:05

bridge and kind of bringing

21:08

consumers into

21:09

the EV world.

21:11

And I think their perception

21:14

is, like, color a

21:16

lot from like, by who

21:18

they are and their kind of

21:20

global footprint their scale. Like

21:22

Toyota is one

21:23

of the

21:24

biggest automakers in the world. It's always I

21:26

mean, for a long time, it was number two. In

21:29

two thousand and one, it became

21:32

the biggest automaker by

21:34

sales overtaking VW.

21:37

But because it's it's so big and it

21:39

sells in so many markets. And

21:41

Akio's basically his

21:43

argument was like, look, we we have to

21:45

make vehicles for everybody. We

21:47

can't just make vehicles for those

21:49

people that seem, you know, live

21:51

near charging stations have the

21:53

money to install charging

21:55

stations at their homes, like, we

21:56

have to make vehicles

21:58

for people in developing

21:59

countries who might not even have

22:02

access to electricity. And they should

22:04

have a kind

22:05

of a

22:06

environmentally friendly option that

22:09

works for them. You know, when we talked to

22:11

Akio, he said he he tried

22:13

to liken Toyota to a

22:15

department store. in

22:16

which the value of

22:18

the

22:18

brand comes not from it

22:21

being telling

22:22

consumers what they should buy and

22:24

being very Executive. comes

22:26

from them offering, like, a full menu or

22:29

full selection of things in letting the

22:31

consumer decide you offer them

22:33

the lien vehicle, you offer them

22:35

the hybrid, you offer a plug in hybrid,

22:37

and then you offer a full electric. I

22:39

also think that, like, some of it

22:41

is that Toyota just

22:43

didn't

22:43

maybe was a little more conservative in their

22:46

view about how quickly

22:47

EVs will catch on. Well,

22:49

obviously, I say, you know, California

22:52

has already got this mandate that's gonna take

22:54

effect. What is it? Twenty thirty five, I

22:56

think, something like that where you

22:58

can't sell a non

23:00

EV non electric vehicle in in the state. Is that right?

23:02

Yeah. I mean,

23:03

they they've had mandates like that for

23:05

some time. You know, there's other governments,

23:08

including Japan, which

23:10

is, like, put targets

23:12

on for phasing out gasoline vehicles.

23:14

In places like China, like,

23:16

you

23:16

wanna sell cars there, you're gonna have to

23:19

have EVs. same in

23:20

in Europe.

23:21

Like, the tail pipe emission

23:24

standards is so much stricter that,

23:26

like, you

23:27

know, for a while, the reason a lot of these car companies

23:29

like GM were investing so

23:31

heavily in EVs was for places

23:33

like China where GM

23:35

has Lowe you

23:37

know, huge exposure and quite a bit

23:39

of market share. So, yes, the

23:41

pressure is on. And

23:43

I think that probably

23:45

within the last year,

23:47

Toyota has gotten a lot more aggressive

23:49

on EVs, but I

23:50

still think that they feel that hybrids are going to

23:52

play an important Lowe. And

23:54

you know what? We don't know. They could be totally right. You

23:57

know? GM

23:57

on the

23:58

other hand, they're like, no

23:59

hybrids. We're going full EVs.

24:01

They just didn't think it was

24:03

a useful step. And who knows? They might be right. We

24:06

just you know, you don't you don't know. Well,

24:08

what

24:08

are investors saying? I mean,

24:10

when when you look at how the marketplace

24:13

seems to be responding to these two

24:15

very different approaches. On the one

24:17

hand, don't try to steer people towards

24:19

something that they don't already want.

24:21

And then you you have companies like

24:23

GM, as you were mentioning. You

24:25

know, full speed ahead. It's gonna be all electric and

24:27

that's what we're gonna do. Which narrative

24:29

seems to be selling there? The GM

24:31

narrative. I mean, investors are just

24:33

enamored with EVs, and a lot of it

24:35

is the Tesla effect. You know, Wall Street is

24:37

looking for the

24:38

next Tesla. which, of course, raises the

24:41

question, were it not for Tesla? Would

24:43

Detroit's big three have ever really made

24:45

this shift? Or would they have been dragging their feet

24:47

like they were back in the nineteen seventies? when

24:49

it came to, you know, fuel efficiency standards and

24:52

that sort of

24:52

thing? No. I don't think that the

24:55

automakers would have all rushed into EVs in the

24:57

way they are right now if it weren't

24:59

for test because it really was

25:01

when Tesla's

25:02

valuation popped that we

25:05

started seeing other automakers

25:07

take notice. that's not to

25:09

say, would these car companies

25:11

start investing in EVs? Yes. I

25:13

think that was inevitable. That was

25:15

happening. It's been happening for a

25:17

long time. I just think that,

25:19

like, Tesla was the accelerant.

25:21

They started selling a

25:21

lot of cars. Like, they became very

25:24

cool and the other guy.

25:25

for looking at it and wanted

25:27

a little bit of that. You know you you

25:29

know what's weird is that I saw

25:32

the new catalog, all

25:34

electric vehicle. I think it's called the Lyric,

25:36

if I'm not mistaken. Yep. And it's a

25:38

beautiful beautiful vehicle.

25:40

And so here you have, one of

25:43

the well used to call them, the

25:45

dinosaurs of Detroit. Right?

25:47

Coming out with this very

25:49

futuristic all electric vehicle

25:51

and

25:51

I don't I can't

25:53

name a single Honda that

25:56

is all electric. you know,

25:58

it does sort of make you

25:59

wonder, is there something that these

26:02

big Toyota and

26:04

Honda know that maybe Detroit

26:07

doesn't? Or is Detroit thinking

26:09

more too short term, which

26:11

is ironic given that the very

26:13

purpose of electric vehicles is to save

26:15

the planet. if there's, you know, that's

26:17

hardly a short term way of thinking.

26:19

But you gotta wonder, what's

26:20

going on? Well, I

26:21

mean, GM was very early.

26:24

they were the first major automaker

26:27

that really committed to

26:29

EVs.

26:29

I think, for what, Honda

26:31

is working with GM on EVs.

26:34

So

26:34

Hana's kind of Lowe

26:36

tied themselves

26:36

I mean, and and as

26:38

well as

26:38

Sony. Hana's working with Sony on

26:40

EVs as

26:41

well. Like, I think you will start to

26:43

see more EV models from Toyota.

26:45

It's just that the development

26:47

cycles in automotive

26:49

are so long that even if you commit to something

26:51

today, it might be like four

26:53

years before that new model reaches

26:55

a showroom. And I mean, Toyota

26:58

just recently launched a new electric

27:01

SUV. So it's not that they're,

27:03

like, you know, too far like,

27:05

all these companies only have, like, a,

27:07

you know,

27:07

handful of models that are Karen

27:10

electric. It's still very slow

27:12

going,

27:12

but there's way more electric vehicles on

27:14

the market now than there was even Lowe, you

27:16

know, a couple Wars So it's really

27:19

happening.

27:19

It's really happening. when we come back,

27:22

we're gonna be talking more about other

27:24

Japanese and South Korean

27:27

automakers giving Honda and Toyota

27:29

a run for their money. We're talking Kia

27:31

Honda Ooma. They're

27:34

covering it all, so stick around.

27:38

When you leave

27:39

home, can you ever really go

27:42

back? Lady Gaga. Soccer legend,

27:43

Neil Meancy and I both left

27:46

Argentina

27:46

as kids. you know, you're that piece

27:48

of a puzzle that

27:48

doesn't fit anywhere. To so many

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immigrants, put one is a way to reconnect.

27:53

Listen to the Last Cup in the Embedded

27:56

Podcast to hear the latest

27:58

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27:59

Futuro studios.

28:00

Hey,

28:07

welcome

28:09

back. My guest is Christina

28:12

Rogers, Auto's editor at Wall Street Journal.

28:14

Lowe, let's talk competition. we mentioned

28:16

Mazda earlier on

28:19

Nissan. I mean, you know,

28:21

the thousand pound elephant in the

28:23

room here. Subaru, Mitsubishi.

28:26

Mitsubishi is a long going industrial

28:28

concern in Japan.

28:31

Anybody who do you see is giving Toyota and

28:33

Honda the biggest run for their money? Right

28:35

now, Hyundai

28:36

Kia. And

28:38

Really? We're talking South

28:40

Korea here. Mhmm.

28:41

Mhmm. Those two brands have

28:44

really, really, I mean,

28:46

reinvented themselves. in

28:47

terms of

28:49

quality, in

28:50

terms of styling, in

28:52

terms of technology,

28:54

I

28:56

mean, it's

28:56

almost like they took the Japanese companies,

28:58

like, formula

29:00

and, like, improved upon it.

29:02

They're they're offering

29:04

really, really high quality,

29:06

reliable cars

29:08

that are just really good looking. I

29:10

mean, they have some real head turners out

29:13

right now that look premium

29:13

materials, great

29:16

tech.

29:16

You can get all the latest tech and

29:18

at price points that you're just like, this doesn't

29:20

even make any sense. How could this actually

29:23

cost You

29:23

think about Hyundai's new line to Genesis, which

29:27

basically they followed the blueprint of

29:29

Toyota and Lexus. And

29:31

the genesis, I mean, that's a

29:34

lot of people say it's on par

29:36

with some of the best vehicles

29:38

coming out of Europe, including Mercedes.

29:41

Yeah.

29:41

I mean, that the the new

29:43

genesis, like, I know I saw one in

29:45

the wild or what we

29:46

call just on the street. You

29:50

know,

29:50

I saw one,

29:52

you know, they're gay and I just like, I couldn't

29:54

believe it. I was like, Lowe, that is

29:56

so good looking that so pretty

29:58

and, you know, they really, really

30:00

are getting a

30:01

lot of notice. I don't know how

30:04

how they do it. that's something like we

30:06

here at the Journal would love to investigate

30:08

for. But it's just, you

30:10

know, the the whole package. And

30:13

if you look at at some models like the Telluride, I

30:15

mean, they're consistently on the top

30:17

of every list of, you know,

30:19

best best SUVs to buy

30:22

in the last several years, they've really

30:24

come ahead. And you can see that in

30:26

their market share too. They're picking up market

30:28

share pretty quickly. Well,

30:30

I know that Kia and Hyundai have

30:32

done a lot of collaboration Hernan

30:35

in recent years. But do you see

30:37

a brand that is standing out to

30:40

you as maybe the inheritor

30:43

of the crown that that is Toyota

30:45

today. I mean, is is Is

30:47

there a South Korean manufacturer perhaps or maybe

30:49

there's someone in Europe that I haven't thought of

30:52

that might be

30:54

well positioned to sort of

30:56

become the the next king. I

30:57

don't know. I mean,

31:00

Toyota's just

31:01

it's so big. I

31:04

mean, Hanekia, they very much see

31:06

themselves as, like, separate brands and

31:08

separate companies. I mean, they still have,

31:10

like, a long way to go to match

31:12

Toyota. And

31:13

it's

31:14

just so hard to

31:15

really really upset the pecking

31:18

order in automotive, you

31:21

know, Toyota

31:22

sells ten million vehicles

31:24

a year globally. And

31:26

Volkswagen is right up

31:28

there to catch up on

31:30

that. That's that would

31:31

be tough, you know. So it's

31:34

kind of hard to say, like who would be

31:36

the next Toyota? I really think

31:38

Toyota is still gonna be Toyota for a long time.

31:40

Yeah. Uh-huh.

31:42

If that makes sense. Well, it certainly

31:45

does. You know, in a lot of ways, I

31:47

have to say that it seems like many of

31:49

today's vehicles are more well,

31:51

rolling computers than cars

31:55

What do you think that means for the future of the auto industry?

31:58

Yeah. I mean,

31:58

I think this kind of

31:59

shift to EVs opens the door

32:02

for new entrants to come

32:04

in because, you know, it's a different

32:06

supply chain, it's a different technology.

32:08

And so you have these new companies like,

32:10

you know, Rivian, and

32:13

lucid, and you

32:13

know, there's a bunch of Chinese EV

32:16

startups coming in and

32:18

same with like cars becoming

32:20

more like rolling computers. It again

32:22

opens the door for new entrants

32:24

who can kind of have

32:26

more expertise in that space to

32:28

come in. They're just long been talking

32:30

about an Apple car. Right.

32:31

You know? So,

32:34

I

32:34

mean, I think with any, like,

32:37

technological shift, you're, like, really kind of,

32:39

like, recasting the playing field.

32:41

and that's

32:41

a lot of what we're seeing here.

32:43

That

32:43

said,

32:45

the

32:45

auto industry is really hard

32:48

to

32:48

disrupt and it's because I just

32:50

cannot defy the

32:52

gravity

32:52

of like what goes into

32:54

manufacturing a car. it's

32:58

hard. It's

32:58

really hard. I

33:00

mean, you're basically trying

33:02

to create something that goes down

33:04

the road at like eighty eight hundred miles

33:06

an hour needs to last for, like,

33:09

thirteen, fifteen

33:09

years and be

33:11

totally safe. Like, we

33:13

stay on, like, crashes, like, felt

33:16

Lowe, making

33:17

a cell phone. You know,

33:19

it's a really hard industry to

33:21

disrupt. And, you know, in

33:23

in that respect, companies

33:25

like GM and Toyota and Volkswagen

33:27

really do have the advantage

33:29

there. Elon Musk often

33:31

talks about manufacturing

33:33

Hernan

33:34

that's just how hard it is. It's

33:36

really hard to replicate what Toyota

33:39

does so well. We find that with a

33:41

lot of the EV startups right now. Like,

33:43

you know, Rivian

33:44

has just launched their new electric trucks

33:46

and SUVs, and it's been a really hard

33:48

year for them, you know, like getting their

33:51

manufacturing lines running. you

33:53

know, it's just like a yes. This move to

33:55

kind of computers and software

33:57

and the shift EVs. It's

33:59

just

33:59

it's really kind of changing

34:02

things, but at the same

34:04

time, it is still a car. You

34:06

know, we

34:06

we began our conversation by talking about, you

34:08

know, sort of the perfect car and,

34:11

you know, the things that we

34:13

have fondest memories of and that sort of

34:15

thing. And, you know, you look at

34:18

gas prices being what they today

34:20

inventory shortages weighing down on

34:22

consumers. And, you know, it seems like a lot

34:24

of younger

34:26

consumers especially Well, they're

34:28

waiting longer before they get their driver's

34:30

license. Right? I mean, some don't don't

34:32

bother doing it at all. They just assume getting

34:34

an Uber left somewhere. I'm

34:36

wondering where do you think

34:38

the the car fits into the

34:40

American imagination?

34:42

these

34:42

days. I mean, used to be wasn't anything more

34:45

sort of iconic than the fifty

34:47

seven Chevy with the tail fins. Right?

34:49

I mean, it was just Lowe

34:52

is it Lowe an American diner that had that kind of cache.

34:54

Right? Is that forever gone?

34:56

Or do you think that we

34:58

are going to somehow someway

35:01

come back to this idea of of passion

35:03

for the open road. And the

35:05

car is a kind of a not just

35:07

a status symbol. but

35:09

something that sort of says something about us

35:12

in a broader sense

35:14

culturally. I

35:15

think, you

35:16

know, there

35:17

was a time not long ago when

35:19

autonomous vehicles had become the

35:20

craze in the auto industry.

35:22

Self driving cars. Right. Right.

35:26

And

35:27

everyone was talking about the end of car ownership, even

35:29

auto executives. I mean, I

35:31

remember Bill Ford kind of

35:34

getting on stage and and talking

35:36

about how we gotta prepare

35:38

for a future where people might not,

35:39

you know,

35:40

buy and own cars in the way they do now.

35:42

I think any business only

35:44

exists to make people's lives

35:48

better. period. And at a certain

35:50

point, shoving more vehicles into an

35:52

urban environment isn't doing that. Oh, I

35:54

remember that speech.

35:56

It was talking about to afford becoming a

35:58

transportation company as opposed to

35:59

kill. Right? I remember that. But

36:02

in that

36:03

time, you know, car

36:06

sales also hit record

36:08

highs and stayed pretty

36:10

close to that

36:11

record. They dipped a bit, but they

36:13

stayed pretty close. during the

36:16

pandemic, of course, sales, you know,

36:18

took a big hit, but that's

36:20

only because we didn't have supply.

36:22

I mean, people

36:23

are buying cars

36:25

like crazy. You

36:26

know, they're like by far

36:29

the demand is outstripping the supply.

36:31

even

36:31

with prices being what they are

36:33

right

36:33

now. At prices Karen at record levels,

36:35

I've never seen them so high,

36:37

both on used and new

36:39

cars. thankfully coming down a bit, but

36:42

still we're at like a very

36:44

elevated level. You see

36:46

studies where

36:48

households on average own more cars than they ever did before.

36:50

You know, like, the average household now owns,

36:52

like, two to three two and a half

36:54

the three cars. And I think

36:56

during the pandemic, a lot of people kind

36:59

of moved to more rural areas. They've been

37:01

moved out of cities. And of course,

37:03

that also kind of drove another

37:05

wave of demand for for vehicles. So I

37:08

get, like, you know, like, there are some

37:10

pockets of the world

37:12

where people are, you know,

37:14

kind of giving up car ownership and going

37:16

to public transportation and everything.

37:18

But I just think that, like, everything, like,

37:20

these things don't happen

37:22

as suddenly.

37:23

as as we

37:24

think they will. And, you

37:26

know,

37:27

I do think that, like,

37:29

the car culture is still

37:31

alive and well. I mean, look, I live in Detroit where we

37:33

don't really have the option. We do have public

37:36

transportation, but people don't take it like

37:38

they do in New York. And, you know, we are

37:40

very much a centric

37:42

culture, but I think a lot

37:44

of places are like that still.

37:47

And

37:47

so

37:48

to get back to your question,

37:50

I

37:51

do think automobile will still

37:53

capture the imagination of

37:55

many of Americans And

37:59

I'll leave you

37:59

with this because I also have two teenagers. One of

38:01

them when she turned sixteen,

38:04

I just I

38:06

just

38:06

assumed she wasn't really gonna be interested in, you

38:08

know, cars. She just

38:09

doesn't seem to be interested in that kind of

38:11

stuff, like status symbols

38:14

or anything. But no, she wanted

38:16

a Volkswagen Beetle. And she was very particular about

38:17

it, and she loves her

38:20

Volkswagen

38:21

Beetle. So

38:23

and she got her right away.

38:26

So I just feel

38:28

like Is

38:30

Americans love affair with the automobile fading? Maybe

38:33

in some pockets,

38:34

but but I don't

38:36

know. There's a

38:36

lot of like counterpoints to

38:40

that. So we'll see. We'll see. Christina Rogers,

38:41

thanks so much for joining us. Thank

38:44

you so much

38:44

for having me. Big fan of your

38:47

show. Well, we're big

38:48

fan of what you do too. Thanks so much

38:50

for doing this. Christina Rogers is the

38:52

Auto's editor for The Wall Street Journal. You can

38:54

keep up to date with all her team's reporting

38:57

at WSJ dot com. Coming

38:59

up next on the best of business

39:01

wars daily. We're talking about corporate

39:04

blunders at meta, Peloton,

39:06

and Uber. and how these

39:08

companies recover

39:10

or don't.

39:14

Hey, Prime members. You can binge every episode of Business

39:16

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listen ad free with Wonderry Plus Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us

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39:32

From wondering, this

39:36

is episode five of Toyota versus

39:38

Honda for

39:40

business wars. I'm your host David

39:42

Kelly Kyle produced this episode.

39:44

Our interview episode producer is

39:46

Peter Arcony. Karen Lowe is

39:48

our senior producer and editor edited and

39:51

produced by Emily Frost, sound designed

39:53

by Kyle Randall, additional audio

39:55

assistance by Sergio

39:58

Enrique's, Dave shilling is our producer. Our managing producers are

39:59

Producer Figpen and Matt Gand. Our

40:02

executive producers are Jenny

40:04

Lower Beckman and

40:06

Marshall Lowe. created by Lopez

40:08

or Lopez.

40:16

Scammers are best

40:16

known for living the high life, Lowe trotting

40:19

on private jets, dining at

40:21

five star restaurants, and driving

40:23

six figure sports

40:26

cars. That is until their House of Cards collapses

40:28

and forced to trade it all in for

40:30

handcuffs in an orange jumpsuit.

40:32

Scanfluencers is a podcast

40:34

from wondering. hosted by

40:36

Sarah Hagee and Sachi Lowe tells

40:38

the unbelievable true stories

40:40

behind some of the world's most infamous

40:42

scams, swindlers, and con artists.

40:44

Scan Fluencers has covered jaw dropping scandals from posse

40:46

schemes a fake Saudi prince to

40:49

a sexual predator masquerading as

40:51

a wholesome yoga guru. These

40:54

scammers cost their victims hundreds of millions of

40:56

dollars and a measurable emotional anguish.

40:58

So how does our culture allow

41:01

them to thrive? Each story on scam influencers will take you

41:03

along the twists and turns, the impact on victims,

41:06

and what's left when the facade

41:08

falls away. Follow

41:10

scam influencers wherever you get your podcasts. You can

41:12

listen ad free on the Amazon Music

41:15

or Wonderry app.