0:00

i know story to tell the bit about the details

0:02

my father was a key actually taking a

0:05

sofa cushions and put it on top of the telephone

0:07

if he was not a if a person

0:10

who was afraid of have that many things

0:12

and you reset just saying just

0:13

to be sure this

0:17

is cold war conversations

0:20

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0:22

place to listen to first hand cold

0:24

war history accounts do

0:26

make sure you follow us in your podcast

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0:31

at cold war conversations dot

0:33

com stephen

0:36

was born in com march

0:38

done and was conscripted into the and

0:40

vi the east german army in nineteen

0:42

eighty eight when he left

0:44

school and started an apprenticeship for

0:46

electronics learning how to build

0:48

radio receivers a remote and then

0:50

famous producer of ifi equipment

0:53

stephen is called up at eighteen

0:56

for is eighteen months service and he

0:58

talks of the conscription process and

1:00

the incentives offered to him to

1:02

serve for a longer period is

1:05

posted to a unit in leipzig

1:07

which was responsible for telephone lines

1:09

from the envy a headquarters for

1:11

the area south of berlin he

1:14

describes the training he took and

1:16

the role he carried out including installing

1:18

fines for nato intermediate range

1:21

nuclear forces treaty inspectors

1:24

in the summer of ninety eighty nine

1:26

many citizens of east germany flee the

1:28

country via the now semi open

1:30

hungarian border and

1:32

stephen describes heightened tension

1:34

within the army don't miss

1:36

next week's episode where stephen continues

1:39

his story as the country forms

1:41

of and the berlin wall opens

1:46

the battle

1:46

to preserve cold war history

1:48

is ongoing and your support

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2:09

War history.

2:10

Hi this is Tree from Berlin. I

2:12

believe it's so important and interesting to hear

2:14

these stories from that period, good and

2:16

bad. Books will tell you so much but

2:19

the real life stories from people who were there made

2:21

it so real.

2:21

If a monthly contribution

2:24

is not your cup of tea we also welcome

2:26

one off donations via coldwarconversations.com

2:30

slash donate. I'm delighted to

2:32

welcome Stefan to our Cold

2:35

War Conversation. I

2:37

was born in 1970 in Karl-Markschratt

2:40

which is now called Käbnitz but during

2:42

the years it was Karl-Markschratt after

2:45

the famous philosopher. I

2:47

grew

2:49

up having a probably typical

2:52

East German childhood. I

2:56

was the only child of my two parents and

2:58

they were doing regular jobs so nothing

3:01

fancy there. It's

3:02

just you and your parents in

3:04

the family. Exactly. What

3:07

job did they have in East Germany?

3:10

My father is a mathematician

3:13

or he worked in

3:15

some, I think some institute not too

3:17

closely affiliated with the state and my

3:20

mum was also in a production company. She

3:24

did some

3:25

secretary services and

3:27

some calculations on the energy sector,

3:30

stuff like that, regular office jobs.

3:33

Neither of them were members of the party

3:35

per se. No,

3:38

they were not. My parents

3:41

also including me, they

3:43

were not resistant or so. They

3:45

were also

3:48

not in the party. It was more like I think

3:50

with most of the people in the GDR

3:52

just trying to get by. My

3:55

mum actually had her own little history

3:57

of not being allowed to study. because

4:01

she did

4:03

not do the Jugendwijer, which is the

4:06

thing that you do with the, I think it

4:08

comes out of a communist tradition, where

4:12

instead of the church thing you do with 14, they

4:15

had some alternative thing governed by the

4:17

state. Because she didn't want

4:19

to do that, she didn't want to do the Jugendwijer,

4:22

she was not allowed to study. That sort

4:24

of maybe raised her resistance a little

4:26

bit, but not in

4:29

a real

4:30

way that she was doing forbidden things.

4:32

It was more like on a private level and

4:35

similar from my dad. They were

4:37

sort of neutral and trying to get

4:39

around in life. From

4:41

my interviews that I've done, people

4:44

are sort of expecting the Stasi at every

4:46

corner and the ever

4:49

oppressive state. But the vast majority

4:51

of people were just getting on with their

4:53

life as they could,

4:56

in the same way that people were in the

4:58

West and just sort of accepted the

5:00

way things were.

5:02

Sort of, right? I mean, that's, I

5:05

think, probably one of the most frequent discussions

5:07

when you get even nowadays

5:09

that people still discuss. On

5:12

one hand, it was sort of clear that there

5:14

was always a possibility that somebody you're talking

5:16

to might be with the Stasi or might

5:19

be giving reports to the Stasi as

5:21

an unofficial member. On

5:23

the other hand, you just, you

5:25

know, you were friends with people and you

5:28

just couldn't think of them doing something like that. And

5:31

as many, many people saw after

5:33

the war came down, that was actually

5:35

more frequent than we thought at GDR times.

5:39

That

5:39

was pretty surprising for me. Thankfully,

5:42

I didn't have such thing. I did look up my Stasi

5:44

files and I did not see anything

5:47

that, you know, anybody did

5:48

something, said something bad about me or so.

5:51

It was very, very thin.

5:53

But yeah, I

5:55

know many other people who had bad surprises.

5:58

Did your family have any records? in

6:00

the West at all or not? Yes,

6:03

actually they did. Not

6:05

very close, but I think the closest one was

6:07

an aunt my mother had.

6:10

And actually she was able to visit

6:12

her when her aunt

6:14

turned 80, I believe, in 87.

6:18

Awesome, from my father's side, we

6:20

had some relatives maybe not too

6:22

close. And my parents

6:24

actually also always made a point about

6:27

not hiding that, right? It was kind of a protection

6:30

for not being asked to join the party

6:32

or getting into jobs that

6:36

were too close to the state. They

6:38

always told me, never hide that and

6:41

make sure you mention that all the time so they cannot

6:43

say you hid it and you

6:45

did bad things. And what

6:47

was your school life like,

6:49

Stefan? So

6:52

I did the regular 10 years

6:54

of school education

6:56

that everybody

6:58

had like a secondary school. And

7:02

until I turned maybe 15 or so, I

7:05

had no intention to do grammar

7:07

school or A levels.

7:09

And I wanted to

7:12

basically get an apprenticeship and get

7:15

what I thought at this point

7:17

a real job. And

7:21

I remember telling my parents, I don't wanna

7:23

end up in a lab being in one of these white

7:25

coats and doing theoretical things. I wanna

7:27

do some practical stuff. Yeah,

7:29

but before that school was sort

7:32

of uneventful for me, I just got by

7:34

and had some minor

7:36

troubles, but nothing serious. Did

7:39

you play much sport or anything at

7:41

school?

7:42

Not too much. I

7:44

was into bicycling a little

7:47

bit and also a

7:49

lot of electronics, which I later

7:52

had

7:53

my apprenticeship in. I also

7:55

studied later on, but

7:58

that

7:58

was more or less not in... laugh at school

8:00

that there were central places own called

8:03

term pune your house or a

8:05

again organized by the state

8:07

where you can get together and you know

8:11

do something about your hobby i think

8:13

i was there for maybe a year or two but mostly

8:16

it was it was not for me i

8:18

was more happy with doing this but by myself

8:21

when

8:21

with a friend work

8:22

with or is it was there any military training

8:25

at your school

8:26

yes there was actually so

8:29

i think the age of fourteen

8:31

most a male

8:34

children had to go to i

8:36

think for week or so to dislike

8:39

pre training and term but

8:41

the already tried to convince you to do

8:44

more than more

8:45

than the usual eighteen months of military service

8:48

that levels by the way that was the topic all the time

8:50

right for your whole childhood and

8:52

it's gdr he was always about joining

8:54

the army and you know going for more than

8:56

the eighteen months and

8:59

and i

9:01

i basically resist is at all the time

9:03

because we know i couldn't see myself

9:06

i

9:06

couldn't see myself shooting other people that was that the

9:08

biggest thing but at least in of a part

9:10

of the story of for me also

9:13

physical

9:13

activities i mean i did them

9:15

but i didn't particularly enjoy them and

9:17

military was always about physical stuff for the

9:19

time so i just couldn't see myself

9:21

there i'd were pretty clear vision

9:23

of what i wanted to do in life and

9:26

military service just was a

9:28

necessary evil that i had to do at one point

9:30

so actually in school i managed to not

9:32

having to do that we were just

9:35

too many boys and in our class so that

9:37

was not enough space or in and getting

9:39

to this one week of miniature

9:41

education and three of us had to stay home

9:43

and so at the same in the same

9:46

week the girls hat i think

9:48

some some medical training like

9:50

you know or first eight and stuff like that and

9:52

we were just and we were joining them

9:54

which was smashed he could fun so was useful

9:57

to a useful skill to have more

9:59

useful than you

10:00

knowing how to shoot so

10:01

i enjoy that and

10:04

you mentioned an apprentice

10:06

ship so where did you end

10:08

up doing that and what was the apprenticeship

10:11

about yes your

10:13

i was into electronics a lot or as

10:15

a child and i wanted

10:17

to do that as a you know as

10:19

as my regular job so i'm in

10:22

but most people and your if

10:24

you weren't doing your your a

10:26

levels and study or you would get

10:29

an apprenticeship that was i

10:30

don't know percentage but i think the vast

10:32

majority of us was going that route so

10:35

you we would have ten years of school education

10:37

and and two or three yourself or

10:39

apprenticeship and then you just

10:42

start your regular job life

10:45

and for me there weren't too many companies

10:47

around us are offering apprenticeships

10:49

for what he wanted to do and

10:51

my my marks and school burn

10:54

not that great so obvious between two and three

10:56

all the time and which

10:58

was no one did the best and five the worse

11:01

and i'm so i

11:03

have added that these these

11:06

apprenticeships for electronics and you

11:08

know radio mechanic and was the kind of stuff

11:10

they were sought after a lot so i

11:12

didn't see myself having

11:14

high chances so when

11:17

i was looking around there were basically to

11:19

play sister were sort of indicating

11:21

before that when i visited them together with my

11:23

dad they were saying yeah you know we

11:25

could see you hear the utters

11:27

with better marks but you know maybe

11:29

it works out so yet to put in

11:32

there

11:32

putting some papers

11:34

and a home so

11:36

i applied actually a to places

11:38

and the second place which

11:41

was my favorite was

11:43

lame arsenal back that serve no

11:45

actually i would say in the to pretty famous producer

11:48

of radios a

11:49

real receivers

11:51

and they didn't take me my day these

11:53

days they said we found somebody who

11:57

has some some worse marks and you but

12:00

is willing to do twenty five years of military

12:02

service so we can fulfill our quota

12:05

and sorry not for you so

12:08

am i was going back to that other place and they're actually

12:10

saying you know you

12:12

can you can get it right so i was in that

12:15

in that replace and funny enough

12:17

they didn't do the education themselves so they sent

12:19

me to that other place to emerged i back

12:22

they had wide eyes were they saw me on on

12:24

day one a day before

12:27

it before that they said you know you can't come and

12:29

then i was going into that other companies sending

12:31

me over there for my apprenticeship

12:34

so i ended up in the place where i wanted to go

12:36

but with some with some detours

12:38

or to say ramo

12:40

making hi fi

12:42

a question as well and true yeah

12:45

so was it very popular brand

12:47

in east germany for electronics

12:50

radios and hi fi i'm

12:53

it's hard hard for me to say

12:55

like you know absolutely because

12:58

i'm many products and it's your

13:00

gdr were always rare right

13:02

not because of their quality because because everything

13:04

was

13:05

maybe except cabbage everything

13:07

was it was rare right and

13:10

but i think you know

13:12

from learning a little bit about them and i'm

13:14

also from what i heard from utter from

13:16

others from friends are so you do get

13:18

access to some of these radios can you buy one

13:20

for me in such the

13:22

image these radio head

13:24

especially maybe in his sixties

13:27

and seventies were very very good so people

13:29

were lacking them a lot

13:31

and i had this

13:33

funny story of as as part of

13:35

my apprenticeship you

13:37

had to risky rotate a couple

13:39

of from basically places

13:42

were doing different things in that company so

13:44

one of part of that was i

13:46

think maybe six weeks or even two months

13:49

of the being in the research and development department

13:52

and until that i had seen other

13:55

parts of that company and doing some work

13:57

on on the production line and

13:59

other places

14:00

And there was this one radio everybody

14:02

was speaking the highest of, you know, this is like

14:04

the best of what we can do. And everybody

14:07

was proud of that thing. And when I came to that

14:09

research department, you know, you

14:11

had your regular coffee conversations with people

14:14

and I was talking to two of the engineers

14:16

over there. And I

14:18

was saying, you know, I'm so I'm sorry

14:20

in love with this with this particular radio and

14:23

such a good thing. And the quality is

14:25

so good. And they were just looking at me

14:27

saying,

14:27

that's a design of the Western company Kondik

14:30

from Right.

14:32

So that

14:34

was that was 15 years old. That was the like

14:37

the highest and the best that the GDR

14:39

could produce. And that's 15

14:41

years after what West Germany

14:43

was producing. So that was quite, quite

14:46

devastating for me at this time.

14:48

So were they copying West German designs?

14:51

That's hard to say for me.

14:54

I have no definitive information about

14:56

this. I would suspect so because there

14:58

was many, you know,

15:00

like transistors and chips and such were

15:02

being copied. At the same

15:05

time, there was also quite

15:07

some engineering going on that clearly

15:09

was not copied and also

15:12

basically general

15:15

ingenuity of people. So

15:17

maybe parts of that, but I can't really

15:19

tell for sure.

15:21

What age do you get called

15:23

up into the East

15:25

German army? Between 18,

15:28

which was like the earliest

15:30

they could call you. And I

15:33

think 25 was the

15:35

latest they could call you. So there

15:37

were very, very rare cases of people

15:40

becoming 26 and not having been called before

15:42

that and you were basically free then.

15:45

And yeah, actually

15:48

that was one of the main fears

15:50

I had when planning my job

15:53

then after the apprenticeship. I

15:55

was thinking,

15:57

what do I do after exiting?

16:00

the apprenticeship and what would my

16:02

life look like. And actually during the apprenticeship,

16:04

I developed some more

16:06

appreciation for what before that

16:09

I called, you know, being in the lab in a white

16:11

coat and I didn't want to do that. Actually, I find I found

16:13

out that the more interesting jobs,

16:15

at least more interesting to me, were actually

16:18

those exclusively of people who

16:20

went to study. So I developed that idea,

16:23

maybe that's, that's for me. And

16:25

then I found out that the GDR had

16:27

this sort of,

16:29

it was not a written down rule, but practically

16:31

it was like that you were

16:34

basically not allowed to study before

16:36

actually serving the army. I

16:38

think it was kind of an unwritten rule. So

16:40

I was actually fearing while still

16:43

being an apprentice, I was fearing,

16:45

you know, it could be that

16:47

I'm, I'm 25 and they would call me for 18

16:50

months. So when I'm exiting, I'm 27. And starting studies

16:54

at 27 was like, that

16:56

looked too late for me.

16:58

I was unsure about that thing. And I was

17:00

offered, offered an escape then that

17:03

I actually took. So what

17:05

age were you when you

17:07

got your notice?

17:10

I think shortly before my 18th birthday.

17:12

And that was pretty normal. You would

17:14

get this, this call to where

17:16

to go and such. And I was getting

17:19

this, this invitation for

17:21

muster in summer

17:23

and spring in 88.

17:26

And that was around the time when I had, had made

17:28

up my mind that,

17:30

that I actually want to, want to study. There

17:33

was this like commission of people.

17:36

I sort of knew from other people how this is going to go, right?

17:38

There's the medical part where they

17:40

sort of inspect you and test you and all of

17:43

that. And then there was the final part,

17:45

which was like the

17:46

final attempt to convince

17:48

you of, of doing more than your 18

17:50

months. What incentives

17:53

did they give you to convince

17:55

you to do more than 18 months?

17:57

Yeah, funny enough, that was the first.

18:00

first time that somebody ever

18:02

offered me something concrete until

18:04

then and had always been like you know you

18:06

gotta do it for to socialism and

18:08

everybody you know who's who's going be

18:12

oh value themselves they do some something

18:14

more and to you know a society

18:16

paid for all your education

18:18

and naked gifts and get a give something back and

18:20

was always about this like mean a glorious

18:23

way of us to get her we

18:25

are we have put a real building

18:27

to socialism and all of that and there

18:29

was never any discussion about you

18:32

know any any

18:34

advantages you would have for any

18:36

and mean perks you would get from from

18:39

doing longer than that and that was the first time

18:41

when when i went in and did they

18:43

didn't even ask right they were just looking

18:46

into their papers saying okay we see

18:48

you have this you're close to getting

18:51

you close to finalizing your apprenticeship this

18:53

is a sort of to thing have you considered

18:55

doing more than you eighteen months and

18:58

as at yeah you know considered but it's

19:00

not really for me and i have plans or

19:02

maybe that was that was my mistake to say that i

19:04

wanted

19:04

to study and that's when

19:07

one of these people are confirm

19:09

member one of three maybe are so

19:11

basically said

19:13

like oh you want to study so you know

19:15

how you gonna do that because you know could be a

19:17

long time until i'm

19:20

you know you get to to surf the army and then you

19:22

can study and i was saying yeah

19:25

not that's a problem and

19:27

then they started offering me saying okay

19:29

so maybe if you could consider

19:31

doing a three years instead

19:33

of eighteen months we could offer

19:35

you a i think it was basically

19:37

three things they offered me to

19:40

call me right away in in autumn

19:42

so and

19:43

the same year basically

19:44

six months after off

19:47

is distilled these talks the

19:49

offered me to place me

19:51

somewhere relatively near

19:54

my home town which was a not have a problem

19:56

for many of the conscripts

19:58

you could be

20:00

you could end up somewhere

20:03

near the Baltic Sea or in the middle of

20:05

Brandenburg or someplace where

20:07

it takes you a long, long time to

20:10

get home, where there's no other

20:12

life than your barracks. And

20:15

these 18 months would be

20:17

a boring time at best, maybe

20:20

even worse. And the third they

20:22

offered me, which was actually the most intriguing

20:24

for me, they offered

20:27

to put me into something where I could

20:30

make use of my skills as an electronics

20:32

worker, so to say. This is

20:35

the answer to all of my troubles, right? I

20:37

would get to do these

20:40

three years.

20:42

Yeah, it's double the time, of course, but I

20:44

would get to do them maybe in an easier

20:46

way than 18 months in

20:49

the middle of nowhere. I would

20:51

get to continue doing what I enjoyed

20:53

and that was electronics and not being too

20:56

far away from home actually was also nice. So

20:58

actually

20:59

it's something that I

21:01

never did again. I decided on

21:03

the spot on this day when

21:05

they called me in that I wanna do this and actually

21:08

signed and my parents were shocked, right?

21:10

They were saying like, how could you do that? How

21:12

could you do that? Like yesterday

21:14

you were sure that it's 18 months and

21:17

nothing else and you had your plans and all

21:19

of that. And today you're coming back saying,

21:22

you're doing three years and

21:25

it was not like signing with the

21:27

devil, but it was seriously something

21:29

they had their eyes wide

21:32

open in disbelief. So I remember

21:35

that very well.

21:37

But did they understand that you were

21:39

seeing this as a learning opportunity and

21:41

coming out with some better qualifications?

21:45

I think after

21:47

discussing it and

21:49

explaining them my reasoning and all of that they

21:52

understood, but I also remember

21:54

my dad actually telling me something

21:57

that I obviously like, did not.

22:00

forget because it was so obvious

22:02

that I thought, why didn't I think of that? He

22:04

was saying, okay, you signed some paper

22:07

for doing three years.

22:09

What paper did you get from them? You

22:12

got promises in talking. Do

22:17

you have anything in writing?

22:19

And I thought, oh no, he's right. They

22:21

just fooled me. I

22:25

will end up somewhere totally different in a

22:28

totally different environment and

22:31

maybe as a tank commander or so. And that

22:33

was actually

22:35

pretty much horror for me

22:37

to think like they fooled me. But

22:40

actually to take that

22:42

look in advance, all

22:44

of that became true. Right. I mean, that

22:47

was not often that people

22:49

kept their promises officially in the GDR,

22:51

but they kept all of their promises. That was surprising

22:54

actually. So I trusted sort

22:56

of, that was my only way out. Right. I had signed

22:58

and I trusted, okay, somehow this

23:01

will work out and it did work out. So that

23:03

was

23:04

even then surprising.

23:07

So did you still have to do the same training

23:10

that every NVA soldier did

23:13

or did this role mean that you could

23:15

skip that?

23:16

I think for me, it was quite different for

23:19

many reasons. So no, I did not

23:22

have to do all of the training. The

23:24

regular career path for what

23:26

I was called in for like doing three years,

23:29

you were considered

23:32

a noncommissioned officer

23:34

for a limited time. And

23:36

usually everybody had to go through six

23:38

months of pretty harsh training

23:40

where you had all of the physical things

23:43

and you also had to like your

23:46

whatever you're specializing in, like for me, it would

23:48

have been electronics and for others

23:50

it would have been, I don't know, like, you know, how

23:53

to drive a tank or whatever else. And,

23:56

but there were two things that helped me here.

23:59

First of all, this year in 88, they

24:01

made a change in the calendar

24:04

when they were calling in the conscripts.

24:07

They changed it to September and

24:10

March. So

24:12

I think 89 was the

24:14

last time they called

24:16

in people in March. And

24:20

the good thing for me was it seems like nobody

24:23

was prepared for that. The

24:26

place I ended up in, they were all so

24:28

scheduled for November and May.

24:31

Getting these few people in

24:34

September was apparently a big surprise.

24:38

And they didn't plan a lot for us. So

24:40

I had to do a six-week

24:42

basic education.

24:44

I was told later, pretty relaxed. So

24:47

I think I did the obstacle course maybe

24:50

once or twice. And I never

24:52

had to stand guard. All of the

24:54

regular stuff, I just didn't have to do it because

24:56

of scheduled things. And then of course also

25:01

because of the role they had planned for me to

25:04

be in what I had to do there. But you

25:07

still had basic weapons training, I'm presuming.

25:10

Yes, we had that. But

25:13

I tried to count at one

25:15

point. It must have been

25:18

less than 20 or so shots I ever

25:20

fired in my life.

25:24

Ammunition was always short and

25:27

nobody was eager to do more than necessary. And

25:29

for me it was after the basic training, I think I did once

25:31

or twice again, a repetition of that. But

25:34

that was it. So

25:36

it wasn't a big deal. And what were your fellow

25:39

comrades' backgrounds in the

25:41

unit? Where did they

25:43

come from?

25:44

So it was basically a

25:47

signal battalion.

25:49

And that signal battalion was

25:52

associated to the

25:54

sort of high command for everything

25:56

south of Berlin.

25:57

So we were maintaining the phone lines.

26:00

and the phone system and telegraphs

26:02

and all of that, that battalion

26:04

was sort of split into half, half

26:08

people working in the open and

26:10

half people working in encryption services.

26:13

And these encryption services, that

26:15

was really, that was

26:18

a crazy world. So they, you know, we were

26:20

like living in the barracks together with

26:23

sort of a separation, but not

26:25

too much. And then in the morning when you

26:27

went into the place where you did your work,

26:30

they were basically going beyond

26:32

another like iron door and nobody

26:35

was even allowed to have a look into all of that.

26:38

And so there was lots of secrecy around

26:40

that. Later on, I heard

26:43

that they had, you know, very strict

26:45

regimes about all of that encryption stuff and key

26:47

exchange and all of that. So that was the

26:50

first time I was ever in touch with that, but

26:53

I was in the open part. So I actually

26:56

did not get to see much of that only after

26:58

the wall came down and most of that was opened. But

27:02

there was a lot of secrecy. So whenever you had

27:04

like, you know, people sitting together and drinking beer

27:06

or so, there was one point where

27:09

the conversation stopped. People

27:11

were saying, yeah,

27:13

we cannot talk about this, right? And that was

27:15

strange because normally if you're in a

27:17

private setting, there wasn't that much

27:19

that couldn't be talked about, but

27:21

this one was always a strange thing. So I don't

27:24

know that much about the background about

27:26

these people.

27:27

I think they were checked much

27:30

more thoroughly than people like me

27:32

or my friends. That

27:34

was crazy sort of divide that we had.

27:37

Yeah, I was gonna ask you what sort of

27:40

checks they did on you before

27:42

you had this role. Did

27:44

they do any form of background check on

27:46

you that you're aware of? Did your Stasi

27:49

files show any of that?

27:51

The

27:51

Stasi files did not show anything

27:53

and I did not have to hand in any

27:56

special things. So I would

27:58

have expected that. expected,

28:00

they asked me, I don't know, to

28:02

write down, you know, letter

28:05

laying out my relatives in West Germany

28:07

or whatever else. Maybe they knew about this already,

28:09

right? And that was one thing. But the

28:13

only two things that were kind of strange

28:15

and happening was a couple of

28:17

weeks after I had signed up for the

28:19

three years of service,

28:21

my parents who like most of

28:24

the people in the GDR had an

28:26

application out for getting a telephone,

28:29

which was not a normal thing, right? You

28:31

just couldn't just get a telephone and a GDR,

28:34

maybe, I don't know, one in 20 people

28:36

or one in 50 or so had a phone

28:38

at home. And but everybody had an

28:41

application in because, you know, sometimes maybe

28:43

you get a you get one. And then suddenly,

28:46

a couple of weeks after I had signed up, my

28:48

parents were getting this phone and we were like,

28:50

What is that? And I didn't make the

28:53

connection back then my parents, they told me

28:55

later they made that connection. I never

28:58

saw any, anything that would confirm

29:00

that this was this

29:01

was the reason but that was the first thing

29:03

I saw, you know, maybe there's a

29:06

relation here. I remember

29:08

even when I think there

29:11

was the first time it was still GDR time

29:13

when I came back from the army for for vacation.

29:15

And I started to tell a

29:17

little bit about the details. My father was

29:20

actually taking a

29:22

sofa cushion and put it on top of the telephone.

29:25

He was not a he was not a,

29:28

you know, a

29:28

person who was afraid of that

29:31

many things. But at this point, I was looking at him,

29:33

what are you doing? And he was just saying,

29:36

just to be sure. And

29:38

interesting connection there. It makes

29:40

you wonder whether they

29:42

perhaps wanted to have some way of listening in

29:44

on your calls just to see what contacts

29:47

there were going on with the West. I don't

29:49

know. It's an interesting one. That's

29:51

probably something we'll never know, right? Because

29:54

like you said, the distacy file, I

29:56

looked this up and either it was destroyed, but

29:59

I'm sure it wasn't important.

30:00

enough that somebody was actively

30:02

trying to destroy anything about me in like

30:04

in 89.

30:06

And then the other

30:08

thing that happened was also after the

30:10

war fell down, a fellow family

30:13

was living with us in the same, you know, we

30:15

were living in one of these Neubau

30:18

blocks or you know, we had six stories,

30:20

but there was somewhat 11 or even 20 stories.

30:25

And we were living in those with six stories and 12

30:27

families in that house. And

30:30

for every house that had to be kept, what

30:33

they call the house book or some kind of

30:35

registry when you had visitors, they had to sign

30:37

in. I don't think we ever

30:39

did that when we had visitors, but at least

30:41

it was officially required. And

30:45

after the war came down, that family who was

30:48

running this registration within our

30:50

house, they came to my parents

30:52

saying, you know, just before,

30:56

I think they said somewhere 88 or something like that.

30:58

So it must have been shortly before I was called in, there

31:00

were these strange people and

31:03

asking things about Stefan

31:05

and you know, things about you. And so

31:08

apparently the Stasi did some checks.

31:10

I don't know, it's in relation to my

31:13

service there. Again, I didn't find anything

31:15

in my files. Now

31:18

that we're talking, I think my parents

31:20

were checking their files as well and they did

31:22

not have anything either. So either

31:25

way, it's, I don't

31:27

know.

31:28

You were potentially in quite a sensitive

31:30

role here because you're working on

31:32

the communications for a major command

31:34

post of the East German Army.

31:38

For me, I guess it wouldn't be surprising

31:40

that they did do some further checks

31:42

on you.

31:43

It's possible. Did you ever get access

31:45

to your East German Army file

31:48

after the fall of the war? Was that ever possible

31:51

for you to

31:53

see that or not?

31:54

Maybe I was naive at this time, but I

31:56

didn't even think that there was a file about me.

31:58

I mean, obviously they must have seen it.

32:00

something like you know what's what's

32:02

what's his name and what's this is selling got a

32:04

piece of paper you sign stephen that that's

32:06

all it was the but

32:10

i didn't even try a so

32:12

of i

32:13

see that's a good question maybe i should i should so

32:15

i should try it is so if

32:18

there's something about me yeah

32:19

dinner with you can get access to energy probably

32:21

i'd i'd just be fastened he should sue

32:24

or see whether there's any other mention

32:26

of you know and anything else in in

32:28

there a donor so

32:30

we'd with your role of a

32:32

war is the day to day job like

32:34

what what are you doing day today

32:36

so

32:36

we were a group of

32:39

five people in him with

32:41

similar background than i had to have

32:43

everybody was doing the or three years and had planned

32:46

to study you are within you know the the media

32:48

group there were i was working in our

32:50

responsibility was basically a

32:52

the you the phone system itself

32:55

at least partially way we had a i'm a civil

32:57

employees that was doing most of the work he

32:59

was way more more qualified

33:01

to do that and than we were like with you

33:03

know our just our apprenticeship

33:05

and and being eighteen or nineteen

33:08

so he did most work but but all of

33:10

the like you know maintenance of going

33:13

to to some of these offices of the generals

33:15

or you know the high offices

33:17

when the phone is broken or i'm when

33:20

some of their

33:21

their stuff wasn't working well we

33:23

had to go there and exchange either the phone

33:26

or repair it in place or whatever

33:28

was necessary and then there were were also

33:30

dislike central systems where

33:33

you know all the cables were coming in and being

33:35

routed to whatever place within

33:37

the barracks and of that's with maintaining

33:39

that was a

33:42

large part of our job and this

33:44

was like a twenty four hour job so

33:46

you had to be i'm like not

33:49

only in the barracks but also at

33:51

your desk so to save for twenty four hours

33:54

and

33:54

then there were two days

33:56

of being off and then again

33:58

twenty four hours seven

34:00

kind of a regular scheme and

34:02

it wasn't always like that but most most times

34:04

were like that and you could actually know me sleep

34:07

during the nights are wasn't that bad but

34:09

you had to be on on busy the on

34:11

on the watch always rights if there something going on

34:13

and it could be some

34:15

some general at home or finding

34:17

out that that his phone wasn't working

34:20

and we had to god that was very rare

34:22

but it happened because some

34:24

the difference in their private homes were also

34:26

maintained a known by by the n b a

34:29

and so we had to go to as well but the to happen

34:31

very rarely but it was possible

34:34

that this was necessary and therefore we

34:36

had to be available at all times

34:38

one person had to be available at all times

34:40

that was basically a divided between

34:43

the five of us so there was somebody

34:45

like me

34:45

coming in you know needed to be on

34:48

board it and educated and all of

34:50

that and some somebody him

34:52

hallways on on the way out because they

34:55

were close to their three years and making sure

34:57

they leave all of the you all of knowledge

34:59

they are so diverse kind of what

35:01

the was the split between the five fuss

35:04

seem to remember reading somewhere that

35:07

somebody east german find system

35:09

was still the same infrastructure from

35:11

sort of like the nazi era i'm he was

35:13

it an old infrastructure

35:17

in

35:17

east germany actually

35:18

to friends of my know i'm still friends with

35:20

two of the five people both of them were

35:23

doing their apprentice if apprenticeship

35:25

with dot your post which was the you can have

35:27

phone service provider of from

35:30

a phone and and and letter

35:33

services and all of that and they have a

35:35

much better picture and and what

35:37

they told me and what seems to be in line

35:39

with what i what i also read about these

35:41

times is that most of the public

35:44

infrastructure like what's dot your post

35:46

had was indeed very very

35:48

old mostly mechanical stuff

35:50

that you had some relays and

35:52

and stuff that was really have

35:55

to in a maybe not but

35:57

we're too but you know not not not much

35:59

not newer. But

36:00

the funny thing was that the NVA

36:03

had pretty modern stuff for

36:06

GDR standards. So for instance, the

36:10

phone exchange that we were running, it was,

36:13

you know, I mean, you would laugh nowadays,

36:15

but it was from the 60s. So

36:18

it was only 20 years old when

36:20

I came there. So that was relatively young. And

36:23

then we also had some of the systems

36:25

for basically multiplying

36:29

or multiplexing phone

36:30

calls onto regular

36:33

lines like PCM and other stuff. That

36:36

was maybe from the mid

36:38

80s or so, maybe three years old or five years old,

36:41

again, all, you know, on the level of what

36:43

GDR did do. So for GDR

36:45

standards, that was pretty,

36:48

pretty up to date. So that was not bad. So

36:50

you couldn't,

36:51

you probably would have to be with Stasi

36:54

or some research lab

36:56

or so if you wanted to work on newer

36:58

stuff within the GDR. But that was

37:01

all right. That was good fun.

37:03

Were you made aware

37:05

of the Allied military liaison missions

37:08

in East Germany and to

37:10

watch out for them

37:12

snooping around?

37:14

Not directly. So

37:16

it was not part of the education.

37:19

So we didn't know anything about, you

37:22

know, that, I mean, of course, everybody

37:24

knew that the Russians could do what they wanted, right? Nobody

37:28

told us that actually, the

37:30

French and the British and the US could actually

37:32

also get around and do something. But

37:35

I was involved with that

37:37

kind of stuff once, which I remember

37:40

also very lively, because it was a big event

37:42

for me at this point.

37:44

There was a secret code word

37:46

that if you were

37:48

on these 24 hours thing on

37:51

the under dissertation, you

37:53

always had to have a backup who didn't

37:55

have to be with you like physically,

37:57

but the backup had to be within the back.

38:00

and be available within like 20

38:02

minutes or whatever that was. And

38:05

one of the roles of the backup was, of course, if

38:07

you fell ill during your duties to

38:10

back you up, like it was said. But

38:13

the other role was, and now actually I had to do this then

38:16

once,

38:17

the other role was when the secret code

38:19

word was coming in via phone. It was like in

38:21

a spy movie, right? You were getting called

38:24

and can't remember what the code word was, but something

38:26

like

38:28

rocket inspection, which turned out to be funny

38:31

enough

38:31

close to what was

38:34

actually happening. And then you

38:36

would have to call your backup. And

38:38

at this point, this happened in, I think it was in early 89

38:40

when this happened. I

38:44

was actually the one that was the backup and I was

38:46

called in. So I was giving a

38:48

driver who would drive me together

38:50

with a phone, some of these funny GDR phones

38:53

into one of the hotels in downtown

38:55

Leipzig. There was this driver, actually,

38:58

I think he even had a weapon with him.

39:00

I can't remember exactly.

39:01

And I was sitting next to him in a drop-out

39:04

with that phone, with that orange phone on my

39:06

knees. And our mission was

39:09

to go to that inter hotel and

39:11

install the army phone in one of the

39:14

bedrooms. What turned out then, I was told

39:16

later on, all of that was about, is

39:19

exactly for the allies. And I

39:21

think for some international inspection

39:23

program, there was a foreign,

39:26

I can't remember, some inspector

39:28

was arriving in Leipzig with

39:30

the mission to do some

39:31

of these rocket inspection thing, like

39:34

how many SS20 or whatever the

39:36

Russians had in the GDR was inspecting

39:39

that. And

39:41

for him or her staying overnight, there

39:43

had to be one of these phone lines

39:46

to be available. And of course, all of the hotels

39:48

in GDR time didn't have a direct connection to

39:50

the NVA phone system. And the

39:52

purpose of me was actually going there, installing

39:55

that phone,

39:56

testing it and making sure it works. And then of

39:58

course, get out again. that

40:00

done because there was a funny thing

40:02

so at first you get to leave the barracks

40:04

which was not something you could do every

40:06

day and then signal or as like you

40:08

know it was awkward were walking into this

40:11

this fancy hotel with you know beautiful

40:13

people all around you and you would be

40:15

there in your in your

40:17

army dress and with him with

40:20

this crazy phone under on

40:21

the my in my arms and getting

40:23

into these rooms and of like i said it was like a spy

40:25

move of i do i went to do to the desk

40:28

or and saying like like

40:29

kitten inspect soon what

40:32

oh sorry hold on from home and then they were

40:34

looking up every apparently they are inspected to

40:37

and they know they knew what to do it out there was

40:40

that

40:40

was fun yeah it sounds like these

40:42

could have been paypal a were checking on the

40:44

i enough the intermediate nuclear

40:46

forces treaty the

40:48

a been sorry and a few years

40:50

before and

40:52

it was part part of those some inspection

40:55

teams so

40:57

as it's sort of eighty

41:00

eight moves into eighty nine

41:02

a you sensing

41:05

the east germany is changing

41:07

or there's any tensions out there

41:10

i think i was pretty late in realizing that

41:12

was something going on i think the earliest

41:14

i really understood

41:15

that was something going on was

41:18

maybe in summer eighty nine

41:20

you saw this you know in on and t v that

41:22

are that people were fleeing

41:25

gdr through through hungary

41:27

and such bar but that was

41:29

not seen as at least i didn't see this

41:31

as a big turnaround was at

41:33

yad was sort of an escalation and something that has

41:36

not in that at

41:38

least not with that many people before

41:41

but i think i first realized

41:43

it was something strange going on when

41:45

so i said before we will not

41:48

allowed to leave the barracks every day because

41:50

we're we're on a soaring these for years and

41:52

we were treated more like conscripts than than

41:55

you know a real officers or

41:58

sargent or whatever and then suddenly

42:00

there was this this sort of order saying

42:02

on mondays you cannot go out at

42:04

all anymore you had to apply

42:07

you had two cats one of these two a tiny

42:09

tickets nor to leave the barracks

42:11

and there was is all saying no and monday

42:14

it's impossible anymore and okay

42:15

why that i didn't understand

42:18

it and then somebody was honey yeah of

42:20

course it's because of demonstrations at

42:22

what and then i started

42:24

looking a little bit closer and you know

42:27

talking to other is and and it turned

42:29

out you know there was was

42:32

was but then turned into these monday demonstrations

42:34

in by tic dot was the reason

42:37

they have had become so big that the

42:39

they feared any of us taking part

42:41

that would be you would have been crazy of were

42:44

would have never done that a i'm to

42:46

to risk averse probably but

42:49

again also like you know not not

42:51

having any him and

42:52

he interactions by chance by somebody just walking

42:55

by because of it was deep

42:57

in in new and new city centre and

42:59

part of leaving the barracks was always

43:02

going for some food somewhere or having a beer

43:04

or so and that was actually quite in the city centre

43:06

and so it could have happened very easy that

43:09

that i would walk

43:10

into some of these groups and and somebody

43:12

taking photos or whatever but

43:14

not affleck good so you had

43:17

very little way of knowing what

43:19

was going on outside so being

43:21

in the army there was no way you

43:23

could watch west german t v or listen

43:25

to western radio we

43:28

found a way but that was very

43:30

high risk my job so there

43:32

was one t v for each

43:35

other no made you know fifty people

43:37

or maybe even thirty people and

43:40

they were all sealed wow

43:42

i'm in a with these plastic seal said

43:45

you you you weren't able to change channels

43:47

at all but then somebody

43:50

you can't remember exactly how

43:52

a got hold of honesty stem said

43:54

that that you got so we were actually able to change

43:57

it and actually

43:58

watch some some rest the

44:00

television but it was always something

44:02

like there was always a ceremony about this right somebody

44:04

had to be literally under watch train

44:06

a try to watch out for somebody walking into

44:08

was not not clear of or

44:10

not okay with watching worse television so

44:13

yes we did that but not on a regular basis

44:15

and certainly not during that time

44:17

because you know you could see

44:19

the tensions are rising also within the envy

44:22

a like all is your all of the officers

44:24

most of them were pretty close to the state

44:27

i think it was like this was basically not

44:29

possible to be a to get the

44:31

next drink without being in the party and

44:33

the think that was pretty

44:34

soon that maybe you could get

44:36

promoters once or twice and then after that's

44:39

it was possible to get promoted without being into party

44:41

so most of them were like in

44:44

are we keeping be kept saying these are the red people

44:46

the the have read yours what it what the the

44:48

slang was and you could you could

44:50

see the are among thing among

44:53

them as well

44:54

i can't remember exactly what are we did not

44:56

or to did do this but we're certainly

44:58

not something like you did every night like

45:00

at home right i mean my parents and me before

45:03

watching almost exclusively your our

45:06

west

45:06

german television because the and these term stuff

45:08

was just unbearable so hum

45:11

but you can be

45:12

couldn't do that while india in the barracks

45:15

i'm intrigued to know what you chose to watch

45:17

in the barracks

45:19

there

45:19

was just two two possibilities

45:21

and ever studio one in chile or two but

45:24

what about the west wind when you had somebody

45:26

you know on watch to make

45:28

sure you weren't interrupted what western t

45:30

v did you are choose to watch then

45:33

i

45:33

don't remember as watching us

45:35

any of the year you know like a rtl

45:38

aura sad ions or

45:40

whatever private companies were arising then

45:43

so it must have been to the

45:45

first and second program like id

45:47

and said the f pretty sure

45:49

that that was one of the two of them

45:53

so

45:53

were you watching like t v sarah's like

45:55

dallas ah i

45:58

think the only it the o'neill

46:00

The

46:00

only thing I remember pretty lively

46:02

is that we were watching the news, of course,

46:05

for obvious reasons. But

46:09

I was never much into movies, so I'm

46:11

not sure if I would have even stayed instead of reading

46:14

a book or doing some of my hobby

46:17

stuff. So I was into photography at

46:19

this time, and I

46:21

was even allowed to

46:23

bring a camera into the barracks, but

46:25

all sealed, and then I have to give them

46:27

into somebody else watching for it, and

46:29

then when I left, I could take it and take

46:32

it with me and all of that. It

46:34

was okay for spending your time, but

46:37

I can't remember watching movies

46:40

or so, maybe, and surely others

46:42

have done it, but if

46:44

I did it, it didn't impress me much.

46:46

So did you take many photos during

46:49

that period?

46:50

Not

46:53

in 1989, so I was again not, you know,

46:55

I didn't

46:57

have the guts to do that. So I

46:59

stayed away from most of that,

47:02

and I think from September,

47:04

maybe August even, I think it was even August in 1989,

47:07

we were not allowed to go out on Monday

47:09

anymore, because

47:12

I had to hand in my

47:14

camera again when I entered the barracks again.

47:17

I was mostly making

47:19

sure that I'm not getting into any trouble,

47:22

and from my family and also

47:25

from my other background, I was not

47:27

one of these people in resistance. I had

47:29

no intention to do anything like

47:31

that. Most of my photos from that time were

47:34

more like personal stuff, and you know, Lezic

47:37

Tsou or Suu is pretty

47:39

well known. I did take a lot of photos

47:41

there, and countryside and all

47:43

of that, but

47:45

nothing interesting from a historic

47:47

perspective, so to say.

47:49

We're in that period when the demonstrations

47:52

are going on, and I

47:54

think you get called to do a

47:56

certain job on the 7th of October 1989.

48:00

you just take us through

48:01

that.

48:02

Sorry folks you're just gonna have to wait another

48:04

week for the next episode

48:07

where Stefan describes

48:09

the end of East Germany and

48:11

his induction into the Bundeswehr

48:14

the West German Army. Don't

48:16

miss the episode extras such as videos

48:19

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48:21

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48:23

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48:25

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48:28

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48:30

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48:41

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48:44

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48:50

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