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give them a plastic toy or god

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matters, and what matters the most is protecting

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their child. What do you love most

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in the world your children? What will

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I sat down with these smartest

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people I know in the world

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on matters of child's safety, finding

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missing children, fighting back against

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predators, and what I learned is

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com for a five part series

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with action information that

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a gift, not another onesie.

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Find out how to protect your child when

1:00

you're out of the mall or the store, or the grocery,

1:03

in the parking lot at home. Find

1:05

out about protection regarding babysitters,

1:07

in daycare, even online.

1:11

I'd rather have that any day of the week

1:13

than a plastic toy or god

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forbid, a toy gun. Join

1:19

Justice Nation. Go to crime stops

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here dot com

1:27

Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. But first

1:29

this crime online news update. I'm Robert

1:32

Wilenski. You don't want a child,

1:34

don't I have him? And if you caught him

1:36

and you don't want him, give him up. Don't

1:38

do it this way, this wrong. Neighbor's

1:41

stunned to learn a father, a former

1:43

Walmart Santa Claus under arrest

1:45

in Georgia after the bodies of his

1:47

two children found buried in his backyard

1:50

of his house. The kids never reported

1:52

missing, gets the

1:55

lord's work. Elwen Crocker Senior,

1:57

now fifty years old, arrested after

1:59

sheriff's deputy He's go to his house in Guiton,

2:01

Georgia, a suburb of Savannah, to

2:03

conduct a welfare check on his fourteen

2:05

year old daughter, Mary Crocker. After

2:08

questioning Crocker, he apparently directs

2:10

deputies to an area of his backyard,

2:13

where investigators find the bodies

2:15

of Mary and her brother Elwyn, who's

2:17

been missing for two years. I've

2:19

been doing this forty one years and

2:21

while ago Alms broke down in tears, you're

2:23

listening to longtime Effingham County

2:26

sheriff Jimmy McDuffie at a news conference,

2:28

just distraught over detectives finding

2:31

the two bodies. Does that mean I just I

2:33

cannot understand how you do children

2:36

with this horrible Now, police getting

2:38

a tip during a nine one one call saying

2:40

Mary Crocker hadn't been seen since October,

2:43

and the tipster telling the nine one one operator

2:46

she believes the girl is dead. More

2:48

now from ABC thirteen. A

2:50

tip is what led investigators to this

2:52

home, one Rosebud Place. They were

2:55

told fourteen year old Mary Crocker was

2:57

missing and believed to be dead. She

2:59

hadn't been since October. Investigators

3:02

questioned everyone inside the home. Deputies

3:05

say the family lied, saying Mary went to

3:07

live with her mother. When deputies returned

3:09

Thursday morning, they discovered Mary buried

3:12

just feet away from her home, and her brother's

3:14

body was found nearby. Elwyn

3:16

Crocker Junior hadn't been seen since

3:19

November twenty sixteen. Authorities

3:21

believe he was killed at that time, only

3:23

discovered now two years later

3:26

after his death, he would have been sixteen.

3:29

Neither of them were reported missing.

3:31

Deputies have charged three in connection,

3:34

the biological father, forty nine

3:36

year old Elwyn Crocker, the stepmother

3:38

thirty three year old Candice Crocker, and

3:41

the step grandmother, fifty year old Kim

3:43

Wright. They say the three are being charged

3:45

with concealing the death of another and

3:47

cruelty to children in the first

3:49

degree. Deputies say the child

3:51

of the stepmother was found alive inside

3:54

the home. He was taken to the hospital

3:56

to be checked out. And a stunning story

3:59

of two raisin burglars who

4:01

make themselves at home. They make a pot

4:03

of coffee, do their laundry, and take

4:05

a shower. After breaking into a

4:07

house and can't ohio, they steal

4:10

expensive stuff. Police say the couple

4:12

hanging out in the house until the homeowner

4:14

comes back, realizes what's going

4:16

down and calls a relative who has

4:18

a gun. The two suspects identified

4:21

as Richard Napelle, thirty eight years

4:23

old and camer Cantwell, twenty,

4:25

who is reportedly homeless. After

4:27

the two allegedly steal jewelry, a

4:30

computer, credit cards, house and

4:32

car keys, they load these items

4:34

into their truck and then go back inside

4:36

and do the laundry, take the shower, and make

4:38

coffee. The homeowner arrives sees the

4:40

truck in her driveway, and she calls a relative

4:43

who lives nearby, who arrives with

4:45

the gun before police get there. The

4:47

male suspect also has crystal

4:49

meth on him when he's arrested. The two

4:51

now charged with burglary, and he's also

4:54

facing an aggravated drug possession

4:56

charge. In other news, a crazy

4:59

story out on Long Island where a couple

5:01

is accused of punching a New York State

5:03

trooper and then throwing soiled

5:05

underwear during a dui arrest.

5:08

Michael Nelson, thirty eight years old, pulled

5:10

over on the Southern State Parkway. Copsy

5:12

he's driving under the influence of alcohol.

5:15

While he's being arrested, police say he

5:17

headbuts the trooper several times

5:19

and hits the officer. His wife, Alexandra

5:22

twenty nine years old, also arrested.

5:24

While these two at the police station, the

5:27

wife reportedly spits at the officers

5:29

throws her shoes and dirty

5:32

underwear at them. She's charged with

5:34

attempted assault, criminal possession of a

5:36

controlled substance, and disorderly

5:38

conduct. The husband charged with driving

5:40

under the influence, assault, criminal

5:43

possession of a controlled substance, resisting

5:46

arrest, and harassment. More now

5:48

from WABC's Sandra Bookman

5:50

a bizarre story on Long Island.

5:52

Police say a couple headbutted a

5:54

state trooper and even through a soiled

5:57

underwear during a dui arrest.

6:00

Stay Troopers say they pulled that couple over this

6:02

morning on the Southern State Parkway. Police

6:04

say Michael Nelson fought the state troopers

6:06

who arrested him, and when they got to the police

6:09

station, officers say his wife

6:11

Alexandra spat at

6:13

the troopers and through her shoes and underwear.

6:16

A couple faces a laundry list

6:18

of charges. Keep up to date

6:20

on justice and crime issues with Nancy's

6:23

website Crime Online dot com

6:25

and follow Nancy on Twitter, Facebook,

6:27

and Instagram to know what she's talking about each

6:29

day on Crime Stories with Nancy

6:31

Grace, which is now on Sirius XM

6:33

channel one eleven and heard on radio

6:36

stations around the United States every

6:38

day. And follow Nancy on Twitter,

6:40

Facebook, and Instagram to know what she's talking

6:42

about each day on Crime Stories with

6:44

Nancy Grace, which is now on Sirius

6:47

XM channel one eleven and heard

6:49

on radio stations around the United States

6:51

every day. And if you miss her there, download

6:54

the Crime Stories podcast. Subscribe

6:56

at Apple Podcast, Google Play and

6:58

many other podcastings. If

7:00

you have a tip for Nancy or want to leave a question

7:03

she might answer in her show, call Nancy's

7:05

Crime Stories Hotline at one

7:07

nine nine four nine Crime That's

7:10

nine O nine four nine two seven

7:12

four sixty three and Nancy

7:14

answers the phone live on most weekday mornings.

7:17

We will let you know through Facebook, Instagram,

7:19

and Twitter and now Crime Stories

7:22

with Nancy Grace. Crime

7:29

Stories with Nancy Grace. I

7:35

never once introduced

7:37

a sidekick into court because

7:41

hey, it's not hard evidence. Be

7:44

the defense would cross

7:46

examine those witnesses to h

7:49

E, double L and back. So

7:51

in my world as a felony prosecutor,

7:54

if I can't see it, touch

7:56

it, smell it, hear it,

7:59

it doesn't exist in the world

8:01

of hard evidence. And my job

8:03

was to put hard evidence in front of a jury

8:05

to prove somebody needed to go to

8:07

jail for the rest of their life or

8:10

worse. But then

8:13

everything changed. I

8:16

mean, see Grace, this is Crime Stories.

8:18

Thank you for being with us. What do you think

8:20

about psychics and specifically

8:23

about psychic detectives,

8:26

because today we have an all

8:29

star lineup of some of

8:31

the most well known psychics

8:34

in the world to talk about not

8:36

just does another realm exist,

8:39

but what they have done to help

8:41

solve criminal cases

8:44

with me Noreen Rnare,

8:46

Gil Saint, John Alison Dubois

8:49

and of course death investigator Joseph

8:51

Scott Morgan forensics expert, to weigh

8:53

in on the let's just say the world of here

8:55

and now and Alan Jackie

8:57

Howard, We're all here and again thank you being

9:00

with us. I'll tell you, jos Got

9:02

Morgans, it's you an ideal and harsh

9:04

reality and cold hard facts before I get to our

9:06

ladies, jos Got, Come

9:09

on, if I tried to bring a psychic into

9:11

court, I would be laughed down the courthouse

9:14

hallway right out the front door, and

9:16

I could be looking for a job, I

9:18

don't know, door to

9:20

door, back and cleaner salesperson. I guess I don't

9:22

know what I would be doing with that law degree, because

9:25

there would be enough skeptics to

9:28

ruin a verdict and

9:30

I could never risk that. Yeah,

9:33

Nancy, Yeah, Nancy, I'm a forensic

9:35

scientist, and I concur with much

9:38

of what you had said relative to being able

9:40

to not just qualify,

9:43

but quantify those things. That we see before

9:45

us in the field and in the laboratory,

9:48

that sort of thing. And it's very hard to get

9:50

that exactly, but I'll tell you what changed my mind.

9:52

I'd been out of the court courtroom for a

9:54

year or two and I got um

9:57

drafted by the Larry King staff

10:00

and to be not

10:02

just a guest, but to be Larry's regular

10:05

guest host for about five years. And

10:07

I remember one time Larry had to

10:09

go somewhere. We went live that night

10:12

on Psychic Detectives.

10:14

So I started preparing for the show

10:17

and listen to this Joe Scott

10:19

Morgan, mister nonbeliever. I

10:23

started reading about a Burbank woman

10:25

who had never had a psychic vision in her

10:27

life, and she allegedly has

10:30

a psychic vision. And

10:32

I'm putting that in quoties that leads

10:34

detectives to the body of a murder

10:36

victim. Now this

10:39

is what went down. This woman,

10:41

Etta Louise Smith, out

10:43

of the blue, says that she had

10:46

a vision about

10:48

a body out in the middle

10:50

of like a canyon rural area,

10:53

and I think, as I recall it, that she

10:55

saw white. She

10:58

keeps having the vision and it's so

11:00

overwhelming. She gets

11:04

members of her family to

11:06

go with her and they go driving around

11:09

Joe Scott, they find the body

11:12

of a beautiful young nurse. It

11:15

was two days after the nurse is very highly

11:17

publicized disappearance. As

11:20

I recall it, the

11:23

nurse was coming home from work one

11:25

evening. You know, they have crazy shifts at a hospital.

11:28

She's at a red light and a bunch of

11:30

guys that she didn't know drove up

11:32

beside her and they kidnapped

11:35

her and ended up beating her and dumping

11:37

her body in a rural area above

11:39

lake View Terraces. About

11:42

forty five minutes after,

11:45

she finds the body with her family

11:47

members. They call police and the police

11:49

are there now. She is there

11:52

with two of her children and a niece and

11:55

they find the body and they leave. Police to

11:57

the location in Lopez Canyon, in

12:00

the middle of a canyon, Jefe Scott. Well,

12:02

the police get there and guess

12:04

what they do? They arrest her.

12:07

After hours and hours of interrogation,

12:10

they arrest Eda

12:12

Smith. Nancy, Let's listen to

12:15

what Eda Smith told Oprah Winfrey.

12:17

Well, what really brought it about was I was

12:19

listening to a news broadcast on a radio

12:22

and the night before a girlfriend

12:24

had called me on the phone and asked me if

12:27

I had heard about a nurse who had been kidnapped, and

12:29

you felt what Well, what

12:31

really brought it about was I was listening to a

12:33

news broadcast on a radio, and

12:36

the night before a girlfriend had called me on the

12:38

phone and asked me if I had heard

12:40

about a nurse who had been kidnapped and was missing

12:43

in our area, and I said no, I

12:45

hadn't heard about it. So that day at work.

12:47

The following day, at work, I listened to the radio

12:50

and they said that they had found the ladies vehicle

12:53

on a dead end street and that they were

12:55

making a house to house search for her. And

12:58

as soon as they said a house to house, sir, it

13:00

was as if I heard someone speaking to me

13:03

says, she's not in a house. And as soon as

13:05

that thought registered, I saw exactly where she

13:07

was. It was like there was a picture in front of me.

13:09

WHOA. I didn't know the name of the street,

13:12

but I knew the area, I knew how to get there,

13:15

and I just knew. So what

13:17

did you do? Tell called police? Well,

13:19

this was about three o'clock in the

13:21

afternoon, I was at work. I'd get off work at three

13:23

thirty, and I'm arguing with myself

13:25

all the way home because when I get to a certain

13:27

intersection, I either turn right to go home,

13:29

or I can turn left and I'll be right in front the police department.

13:32

So I'm saying I should stop, and I'm saying

13:34

now I should go home. Well, when I got to

13:36

that intersection, I said, let him think

13:38

I'm nuts. I have to stop. And it's exactly

13:41

what I did. I talked to a homicide

13:43

investigator, told him exactly

13:46

the area. I said, I knew

13:49

that it's on the right hand side going up this

13:51

canyon road, and that there was a

13:53

dirt path going towards

13:56

this person and with a heel behind

13:58

her. He said they had not check that area,

14:01

that they would, and I said, well,

14:04

you know, I have a feeling I will also. Inside

14:08

I wanted to be wrong, but I also

14:10

felt that if I didn't check, I'd never know the

14:12

truth. I'd never know if they checked,

14:15

I'd never know for sure whether

14:18

I was right or wrong, and I wanted to be wrong. I

14:20

was hoping I was really wrong. So you went there

14:22

yourself, or you went there with them? No, I

14:25

went I

14:27

didn't go with them. I went home. I told

14:29

my children why I was late coming home, and

14:32

they wanted to go with me. I told him I was

14:34

going. And I feel

14:37

bad about that now because at the time I wasn't

14:39

thinking properly. I wouldn't have taken

14:41

the children out to look for someone. But

14:45

as he was saying, when you get in, how

14:48

old were your children? Nine? Ten? Yeah?

14:51

I took two children with me, plus a niece

14:54

who was twenty one at the time. And

14:56

you found the body ultimately, yeah, yeah,

14:59

you found the Boddy and and you were saying

15:01

what Charles was saying that what when you

15:04

get close? Because I knew when

15:06

we got in the canyon, I could I could

15:08

feel, I

15:10

could feel the terror. I could feel

15:13

vibrations of something that wasn't

15:16

normal. I felt scared

15:18

myself, you know, I could

15:20

feel it just like he since Jennifer, since

15:23

her you said you felt her absolutely. That is amazing.

15:25

That is amazing. Police later arrested

15:28

you because well, they said I

15:30

knew too much about it not to have been involved,

15:33

because I had described in detail where

15:35

she was up this canyon road on

15:37

the side on the right side, with a dirt path

15:40

going to her and a hill behind her.

15:42

I said, I had to have been there to

15:44

have known that. So long story short,

15:46

Joe Scott. She didn't take kindly,

15:49

as you can imagine, getting arrested after

15:51

hours and hours of interrogation.

15:53

She sued LAPD and

15:56

she got a huge settlement

15:59

from lap Now, when I read

16:01

this story, and I read several more

16:03

like it, and I did

16:06

the Larry King Show that night, and I

16:08

was questioning the cops

16:10

that were on the case, cops Joe Scott,

16:12

police officers, and they're

16:14

like, we don't understand it, but it happened in

16:17

Joe Scott. We did several

16:19

shows like that, and we would have three

16:21

or four cases on each show. And

16:23

I got the opportunity to talk

16:25

to the sidekicks, which I had never done before,

16:28

to question the police officers,

16:31

some of the victims' families, and

16:33

I walked away going, Okay,

16:35

this does not make sense in my head, but

16:38

it happened. I don't It's just like you

16:40

know, the telephone and the TV and the radio

16:42

and the cell phone. I don't know how

16:44

it happens, but I know that it does

16:47

happen. I know when I flicked the lights,

16:49

which light comes on. I don't have to think about

16:51

Wow, how did we harness electricity? How

16:54

do we get it into the room without burning the house down?

16:56

I don't think about that, but I know that

16:58

it happens Joe Scott, and this appen for

17:00

us in investigations. We're so pragmatic

17:03

about everything, and we

17:06

spend we spend so much of our time

17:08

trying to cut through what

17:11

is fact and what is fiction. We are

17:13

lied to a lot, I think, in our field

17:17

trying to get to the truth, and it's

17:20

we're biased in that sense in that

17:22

we assume many times

17:24

that most of the people that we're talking to are

17:27

trying to deceive us in something. Well, I

17:29

hear what you're saying, and that may be true, and I'm

17:31

not saying that's not true. Your point. What

17:33

I'm saying is if I can't understand

17:35

it, if it's not two plus two equals four,

17:37

I'm not putting in front of a jury, bam,

17:40

end of story. If

17:42

I can't prove it at a crime lab or I can't

17:44

see it here it, taste it, touch it, or smell

17:46

it, it's not in my world. Until

17:49

I spoke to Edda with me

17:51

right now, three of the most

17:53

well known psychics literally

17:56

in the World. Norine Raner

17:58

del Saint John Alison Duba

18:01

First to you, Alison

18:03

Duba, tell me how

18:06

you became a psychic. When did you first

18:09

have any psychic vision

18:11

or experience. It started when I was really

18:13

little. I mean I was six years old and I

18:16

went to the first funeral I ever attended,

18:18

and it was my great grandfather's. And I

18:20

came home from his funeral and

18:22

my mom tucked me into bed, and I looked at the foot

18:24

of my bed and he was standing there and he

18:27

actually looked like he had no lines on his face,

18:29

and he looked happy. And he said, tell your mom, I'm

18:31

not in pain anymore and I'm still with her, because

18:33

he had died of intestinal cancer, very painful

18:36

death. So I got out of bed and I told

18:38

my mom, Grandpa's in my room, and he says,

18:40

to tell you, he's not in pain anymore and he's still with

18:42

you, and she told me to go back to

18:45

bed. So it was the seventies. They didn't know what to

18:47

do with kids like me at the time, So that was

18:49

my first experience. You know, I'm looking

18:51

at a photo of you right now, Alison Dublat,

18:54

and I already know you, but I'm just looking

18:56

at you. And when people think

18:58

of mediums or chics, they

19:01

think of some crackpot dressed

19:04

and I guess a gypsy outfit over a fake

19:06

crystal ball in a dark room. Okay, that's

19:08

that's what they think of. It couldn't if

19:10

you guys look up these three ladies, Narin,

19:13

Gayl and Alison, and I don't mean this it's an

19:15

insult. They're normal. They're regular

19:17

people like you and me that have had

19:19

an event in their lives that took

19:21

them down the road of psychic medium.

19:25

So tell me when your next

19:27

vision was or your next I don't know if I call it a vision

19:29

or experience. Alison, you

19:31

know I had experiences through my whole childhood.

19:34

I guess when I was a teenager, when you

19:36

get really turned up because of the hormones and

19:38

all, I moved my bed

19:40

from against the south wall over

19:43

to the east wall. And my friend Barbara, who was spending

19:45

the night that night, was like, would you

19:47

do that for and I said, yeah, voice

19:49

that I've heard my whole life told me to move

19:51

the bed, and I said, so, I moved

19:53

the bed because it has already saved my life once

19:56

before, when I was eleven, and that

19:58

night a truck drift through my bedroom wall, and

20:01

if I hadn't moved the bed, barber and

20:03

I would have been under the truck. So my

20:05

friends always just chalked it up, so, well, that's just

20:07

Allison, you know. So I thought

20:09

everybody could do what I did, they just didn't

20:11

talk about it like wink wink, nod nod.

20:14

But it wasn't until I was interning

20:16

a homicide to be a prosecutor that

20:19

I realized that other people

20:21

didn't necessarily see or hear what I was seeing

20:23

and hearing. And that was news to me. Also

20:26

with me in addition to Alison Dubois at

20:28

Alison Dubois dot com, Noreen

20:31

Ranier, and Gail Saint John

20:34

Norine. If it's not too intrusive

20:36

again, landies, thank you to all three of you

20:38

being with dus Norine. When was your first I

20:41

don't know what else to call it but psychic experience.

20:44

I was all grown up and I was pretty much

20:46

a skeptic. I thought all psychics told

20:49

client people could marrya told our handsome

20:51

man and they stole chickens or something of

20:53

the sort. So I was very surprised

20:55

when I started meditating. I

20:58

didn't believe in psychic phenomena, and I went almost

21:00

immediately into a trance and gave

21:02

a Winnebagel Indian who was at the table

21:05

with my girlfriend, who was also skeptic nun

21:09

information which hold

21:11

on, I've got two skeptics and one is an ex

21:13

nun. You know that just reminds me. Let me tell you,

21:15

Narein, when I was a FED before I became a felony

21:17

prosecutor, I was prosecuting some

21:20

people with the Federal Trade Commission

21:22

in the consumer protection an I trust vision

21:25

and it was a weight loss product, which

21:27

I knew from examining and speaking to

21:29

scientists had nothing in it at all

21:32

that would be at a weight loss. It's something called

21:34

guar g u a R. I've

21:36

never had a chance to work that into a conversation since

21:38

that time, but guar kind of

21:41

expands in your stomach and makes you feel full

21:43

for a minute and then basically no,

21:46

nothing to make you lose weight. Then

21:48

I started sifting through all the letters of complaints

21:50

and I found one letter from a nun

21:53

that swore she lost forty pounds

21:55

usually whatever it was, I don't even remember the name.

21:57

Of it and I took it into my boss's office.

22:00

I was holding I'm like, we're screed

22:02

because this nune says

22:05

this worked, and she used it for six months. And

22:07

let me tell you something. You put this n up on that

22:09

witness stand, it's over. Okay,

22:12

we got to rethink this whole thing. So

22:14

you're telling me you're sitting there with an X nun

22:16

and what happened? And well she was a disbeliever

22:19

and everything too. So we after

22:21

Joe, after the episode, we got rid of Joan

22:23

and did you believe this stuff? I said no, she must

22:25

have done something to us. So we decided to

22:28

meet that night. Her husband worked late.

22:30

She was out of the convent now like ten years

22:32

and had been in the convent for about ten years. And

22:35

we started doing what the books we're talking

22:37

about, we would practice. So

22:39

that's how it began. And then at work, I couldn't

22:41

think. I just wanted to see if

22:43

it worked. And I was in PR and advertising, so

22:45

I could bring clients too high at hotel and show

22:48

them in case they wanted to rende lecture hall

22:50

or something, and I would rush them to lunch and

22:52

say, look, I really don't believe in this, but I'm read

22:54

if you hold a person's rings or watch and you

22:57

put it to your forehead, you can, and so I'd

22:59

be grabbing their want to ring off the practice

23:01

on people I didn't know, and it

23:03

was working. Of course, I got fired, I think

23:06

not a very good psyche got three months later, and

23:08

so that's when I went full time, dressed like a gypsy

23:11

and started in the nightclub. I was still

23:13

trying to prove that

23:15

this really was real, and then science got involved

23:17

Duke University, a lot of testing at

23:20

Ryan Research, and I still

23:22

love testing my mind of what it can do. And

23:24

I do still a lot of work, and I'm working a lot

23:26

now in South Africa of all places.

23:28

Okay, I'm just taking

23:31

all of this in. Gail Saint John

23:33

also with me, in addition to Alison du Bois

23:35

and Mareen Renier. Gail Saint John,

23:38

you and I've spoken many many times, although

23:40

guys on professional

23:42

level, I have not consulted with Gayl Saint John.

23:45

Okay, I'm still clinging to

23:47

the fact that this may not exist, even

23:49

though I know that it has actually

23:51

happened. Gael Saint John,

23:54

I want to hear your

23:56

first so called I don't know what else to call

23:58

it, unless you ladies can enlighten me. Psychic

24:00

experience. Um well, I

24:03

vividly remember I

24:05

was about four years old. My

24:08

mother was outside talking to

24:11

the neighbor. You know, we're talking about

24:13

the nineteen sixties, so

24:15

you can kind of picture how that is. I'm

24:17

two houses down playing with the

24:20

other little girl. We're used to having

24:22

a great time, like you know, real little

24:24

kids are doing and watching

24:26

our mom's talk. And and

24:28

I look up at her house and

24:31

it was on fire. And I'm

24:34

at an age where, you know, comprehension isn't

24:36

the greatest. But so I looked down. I look

24:38

up again, and the house was on fire. Now

24:40

at this point, I'm scared, I'm running

24:43

home. If I'm running back, you know, just quickly

24:45

I glanced again, the house was not on fire. And I'm running

24:47

up to my mom and I'm yelling mom, mom,

24:49

and she's trying to, you know, keep me quiet for

24:51

a minute, and she

24:54

shuffled me into the house. I think she said

24:56

something to neighbor. I think she got hurt. And we get

24:58

into the house and she said, what what

25:01

are you howiring about fire? I said, I

25:03

saw the house on fire. I saw the neighbor's house

25:06

on fire. She said, it's not on fire,

25:08

and I insisted, I saw it, but I know it's gone

25:11

now. She said, you

25:13

like, what exactly did you see? And I said,

25:15

it was burning, there was smoke, I

25:18

saw people there, and then I said, then

25:20

it was all gone. She said, um, she

25:22

said, you know you need to not say

25:25

these things. I'm like, I mean,

25:27

I clean, I can't say these things. And my

25:29

grandmother came out of the other room she goes, ye, we

25:31

don't talk about this. This has been in our family. We

25:33

don't. You don't say these things. I was

25:35

so confused at that point I let it go.

25:38

Three days later their house burned down. And

25:40

then that left me with the strangest

25:43

of feelings that at such a young age, of like what

25:45

if what if they? What if somebody would have And

25:47

thank goodness, nobody got hurt in

25:49

the fire, they all got out, But

25:52

what if what if somebody had

25:54

gotten hurt? And I would have been responsible

25:56

because I knew I could have warned them?

25:59

And I with a guilt for quite some time

26:02

and trying to deal with disability

26:04

and where's that line,

26:10

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Truthfinder dot com forward

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27:16

Nancy. Find the truth crime

27:23

Stories with Nancy Grace. We

27:28

are speaking with three renowned

27:30

so called psychic detectives Narene

27:33

Ranier, Gail sat John Alison

27:36

Dubois with me death investigator Joe Scott

27:38

Morgan, Alan Duke and Jackie Howard. I

27:40

want to go to Noreen Rnaer.

27:44

Noreen, do you recall a

27:46

particular case that you worked

27:48

on. This case dealt

27:50

with a victim that

27:53

is last named Sullivan that was

27:55

ultimately discovered dead.

27:59

Um. It was a missing person

28:01

case and an

28:04

agent with the Montana Department of Justice.

28:06

The d o J contacted

28:09

you in way back after

28:12

watching you on television. He was skeptical,

28:14

he says, he met you, flew

28:16

to Florida to meet you to see if you were the real

28:18

deal. He says. He

28:21

gave you no information about the unsolved

28:23

case and wanted to find out

28:26

if you could possibly help

28:28

find a Montana State auditor

28:31

Walter Sullivan. Noreene,

28:33

do you recall the Sullivan case

28:35

out of Montana? Oh? Yes, they do.

28:39

I got a phone call from them. They had

28:42

Detective uber Ubi. I had

28:44

seen me on television and I wanted

28:46

to know how I worked. And usually

28:48

the police, because I worked all over the United States, would

28:51

send me something off the victim that wouldn't

28:53

interrupt their crime, like a whew

28:55

or built buckle or something.

28:58

And they didn't want to send the evidence had

29:00

so they flew out and usually

29:02

I do things over the phone, so I was surprised

29:05

to see them with the camera and

29:08

they videotaped the session,

29:10

and they would give me no feedback. Usually

29:13

on the phone, I just asked if it's a homicide

29:15

or a missing person case. I don't ask for their name

29:18

because the skeptics always say that we look

29:20

it up and we know everything about the person. So

29:22

I never know the name of the victim until

29:25

I start the case. So they told me they named the victim,

29:27

and I described him to make sure I was tuned in.

29:30

I forgot I think I was holding something. Of the victims

29:33

did a bunch on him, and they were very bad at

29:35

giving me feedback, and usually I just like

29:37

to know if I'm in the right zone, you

29:40

know, did he have you know, the ball here? However,

29:42

I described him, but they've no feedback whatsoever.

29:45

And then they gave me the projectile

29:47

the bullet that he

29:50

had been shot with, and then I got all sorts

29:52

of new pictures. I saw three men,

29:56

and I remember my head hurting terribly. I

29:58

was outside of a blue building walking

30:00

towards it when these men jumped me and they

30:02

started hitting me, and the one in the head

30:05

hurt me the most. Described

30:08

there was two Mexicans and then the third man. We just

30:11

have an artist. I always worked with an artist when

30:13

we have homicide cases, so it

30:15

helps the police with the elimination of suspects.

30:18

So the artist was drawing the faces I was

30:20

seen. But I remember

30:23

my head hurting so badly. Even after

30:25

I came out of my tramps, I was still

30:27

hurting. After describing

30:30

the three men, the two Mexicans and the one other

30:32

older man, they just

30:35

started asking me questions and then I would

30:37

respond to the questions. How we was killed?

30:40

You know why I was killed. I saw a lot of numbers

30:42

around the victim,

30:45

and he turned out that he was into finance

30:47

a great deal. Don't

30:49

remember everything, but they were just very

30:51

pleased with what I gave them. I

30:54

forgot what else they wanted to know. Oh, I

30:56

had to draw things for them. They they want to know what the

30:58

gun looked like, and I was trying to tell them

31:01

that you had to use two hands on it,

31:03

and they still couldn't understand. So I got a piece

31:05

of paper and a pen and drew it and

31:07

it turned out it was like a K nine. I still

31:09

don't know guns, but it drew it just

31:12

like it it was, so they were

31:14

very happy with all the evidence. Wow.

31:16

I mean I did a lot more, but I can't remember

31:18

everything, and I don't feel that I

31:21

ever solved crumbs. I think that I'm like, I'm

31:24

a tool and if they know how to use me, right,

31:27

and a lot of police don't. If

31:29

they knew how to use me, and I try to write

31:31

how best I work, I'm

31:34

just a tool for them to get more evidence, and

31:36

that's what they bring to court. Wow.

31:38

Back to our skeptic.

31:41

Joseph Scott Morgan, homicide investigator

31:44

and professor forensics at Jacksonville State

31:46

University. Okay, Joe Scott, did you

31:48

hear that? Oh yeah, I heard it. Nancy

31:51

heard it loud and clear, and for

31:53

all I know, it could just be a random shot in the dark.

31:56

So you're gonna have to prove it to me. And I'm

31:58

not buying it. I'm not much. There's too

32:00

much at risk here, There's too much, Joe

32:03

Scott, hold on, you know what, That's what they said

32:06

the first time somebody brought up the idea of fingerprints.

32:08

I'll let you chew on that for a few moments. Alison

32:11

Dubois Gail Saint John Noreen Ranier

32:13

with us. Alison Dubois, you

32:16

also have worked on particular

32:19

criminal cases. Let's

32:21

talk about Jackie Hartman,

32:23

and remember everybody. Alison Dubois

32:26

actually worked at the Miracopa County

32:28

District Attorney's Office in Arizona. In

32:31

fact, one of her task was organizing crime

32:33

scene photos. I want to talk

32:35

to you about a particular case, Jackie

32:37

Hartman, a nineteen year

32:40

old. What do you recall about

32:42

that case, Alison Dubois. Well,

32:45

I was taken to the last place she was

32:47

seeing, which was kind of like a gas station

32:49

convenience store, and the first

32:51

thing that I picked up was that she went willingly.

32:54

So then the next piece

32:56

of information that I wrote down was date

32:58

rate gone wrong. She'd been missing about

33:01

two weeks at this point, I said,

33:03

you can hear helicopters overhead

33:05

where her body is, so they're looking in the right area.

33:08

I said, there's a small barbecue nearby where

33:11

you have like a cook out. Her body was rolled

33:13

down a hill outside the city limits.

33:15

I said the cell phone tower would be how

33:18

they find her, and then I let

33:20

them know that they would find her body in two weeks, which

33:22

they did find her body in exactly

33:25

two weeks. Alison Dubois

33:27

is referring to the case of Jackie

33:29

Hartman, a nineteen year

33:32

old nursing student. Jackie's

33:34

body was found in two thousand

33:36

and seven, within hours

33:39

of the time Dubois said it

33:41

would be found. Jackie Hartman's

33:44

date on the night of her disappearance

33:47

was ultimately convicted

33:49

of killing the young girl,

33:52

Jackie Hartman, nineteen year old nursing

33:54

student. Very interesting

33:57

that she tells police that this

33:59

was that the victim, Jackie,

34:02

went with her killer willingly that

34:04

it was a date rape to find the

34:07

victim through cell phone records, specifically

34:10

that she would be found in two weeks.

34:13

She was found thirteen days

34:16

and twenty something hours from

34:18

the day the moment that Allison

34:21

spoke with police. I mean, it just goes

34:24

on and on and on. It's

34:28

what do you have to say to your

34:30

critics, Alison, Um, you

34:32

know, I half of my friends are cops

34:34

and the county attorneys prosecutors.

34:37

So I'm critical of myself.

34:40

So I know what information they need

34:42

that can actually be helpful and what's

34:45

just fluff. You know that some psychics

34:47

give and they get pulled into the emotional

34:49

state of the victim. I try to go through

34:51

the killer myself instead of

34:53

the victim. But for people who

34:56

don't believe, it's not it really

34:58

doesn't change my life if they don't believe, you

35:00

know, I mean, at the end of the day, we all

35:02

die, and everybody finds out that there's life

35:04

after death and that you know, what we're

35:06

doing to help to help the police

35:08

when they hit a wall. We're just a last

35:11

resort. We don't want to be their first choice

35:14

of weapon. It's a lot of work for us,

35:16

and it takes an emotional toll on us. I've

35:18

never charged to work a case because I've

35:21

been so blessed in life. It's just kind of how I've

35:23

given back. But that's just personally how

35:26

I've approached it. So, you know, as far

35:28

as working cases, there was no monetary

35:30

gain. And I guess one could say, well,

35:32

you got a television show about it about you

35:35

because of it and you did well, and I would

35:37

argue that, well, then you're just proving

35:39

that I'm a psychic, because then I knew I

35:42

was going to become rich off of working

35:44

cases, you know, So they can't have it

35:46

both ways, and usually skeptics like

35:49

to argue it so that no matter

35:51

what we say or what we do, it's never going to

35:53

be enough evidence or impressive

35:56

enough. And so for those people, I don't really I

35:58

don't bother with me. Noreene

36:00

Renare, Gil's Saint John, Alison

36:03

Dubois, Joseph Scott Morgan, death

36:06

investigator and professor of forensics at

36:08

Jacksonville State University, My buddy

36:10

Alan joining me from LA and Jackie

36:12

Howard here in the studio. Joe Scott

36:14

Morgan, you're chopping at the bit way

36:17

in Joe Scott, Yeah, I gotta

36:19

tell you. You know, you mentioned fingerprints a moment

36:21

ago as somebody said, hey, you

36:23

know, you know we can't use these.

36:26

You're right, you can't use them because it can't be

36:29

quantified and it can't be proved. You have to

36:31

be able to replicate this over and over

36:33

and over using the same test. And

36:35

that's how we validate things in forensic science,

36:38

in science in general. You know that as a

36:40

former prosecutor. Now I want

36:42

to speak with Gil Saint John, who is

36:44

a renowned psychic, and she was

36:47

actually drawn to the spot

36:49

where little Kelley Anthony's body

36:51

was found months before

36:54

the body was found and even has video

36:56

to prove it. She came forward to

36:58

say she was not surprised Kelly was found in the

37:00

woods off Suburban Drive, that she

37:03

had been in that area and drawn to that

37:05

area months before.

37:08

Gail Saint John and her search team is so called

37:10

the Body Hunters, went to

37:13

Orlando to search for Kelly, and on their very

37:15

first day out of nowhere,

37:17

she leads them on a blind drive

37:20

to this spot. Gail Saint John, can

37:23

you even explain what's going on

37:25

in your mind when you have this

37:27

sort of experience? You know, I'm not

37:30

sure that there's anything in a sense

37:32

that you could say is totally going on, except

37:35

for it's almost your sort

37:37

of trance like semitrance.

37:40

You're hearing, you're feeling things

37:43

from the other side as well as you're Obviously,

37:46

if you're driving, you have to be very conscious

37:48

and aware of your driving. But it's

37:50

something I've always done, is that blind

37:52

drive. I get to an area and I go to

37:54

where the person was last seen, and then

37:56

I pick up on what happened,

37:59

how I get to their body, and I

38:01

just allow myself

38:04

to drive where

38:06

the feeling gets stronger. If you've

38:08

ever played that hot and cold game when you were a kid.

38:11

Yes, that's what it feels like. Really, I'm

38:13

going left left, Nope, nope, not losing

38:15

the feeling movement, feeling go the other direction, Yep,

38:18

yep, it's getting stronger going this way, and

38:20

you follow. Yeah, what can you tell

38:23

me about Stephen Hoff?

38:26

Stepan Hoff was a

38:29

person that they suspected he

38:32

had left suicide and had left

38:34

a note. They had had searchers

38:36

out several times looking for him.

38:39

He's been missing around eight

38:42

weeks at the time that

38:45

our team was called out. Now, this

38:48

was a team case, so you

38:50

have to tread lightly on this

38:53

because you're going out as a canine handler called

38:55

out by police. Sort of a conflict

38:57

of interest with the two. They

39:00

don't they don't see the psychic and they

39:02

don't know that I'm psychic. They don't have any

39:05

information on this. They're calling us out to

39:07

do a search. They don't even know if he's in

39:09

this area, and it's a very large preserve

39:12

area. And we

39:15

get out there. On that case, I

39:17

run my canine. I got

39:19

some information off of my canine. If people

39:22

don't understand, there's a lot to run a canine. You

39:24

just don't turn your dog loose and go hey, yeah, you

39:27

got to understand scent theory and how it all

39:29

works. He gave me some signs in

39:31

an area that I was told to go

39:33

over into, and I had

39:36

two other backup handlers with me, and

39:40

he kind of told me a story in what

39:42

he was doing, but my feelings

39:45

were overriding

39:47

some of this. Now by this time, the park

39:49

is getting very busy with people walking on

39:52

trails and thinking, okay, let's

39:54

think about logics here. I'm gonna turn a canine

39:56

loose. We've got people walking in

39:59

this area over here and

40:01

they're walking dogs. It's gonna be

40:03

a problem. It's gonna be a problem.

40:06

So what finally happened We turned

40:08

and looked at the two girls with me,

40:10

and they sort of kind of knew that I did

40:12

some psychic stuff. But listen, we're all about knines

40:14

right there. You know that that's that's the bottom

40:17

line. So and I said,

40:19

I'm gonna put my dog up, and said what I

40:22

said, Yeah, I want to put my dog off. I want to walk around

40:24

on foot over here. Okay, So

40:26

we looked at the canine up and I

40:28

went walking around, and I

40:31

knew, you know, I said, I gonna turn

40:33

this on. This has got to happen.

40:35

I gotta, you know, nip this in the bud

40:38

right now. We gotta find this guy. I

40:40

just turned it on. I said, I don't know what to

40:42

you know, I'm not even gonna say anything to my my

40:45

backup handlers. I just turned

40:47

it on, went with my feelings,

40:49

began walking, going in different

40:51

places, and they're running behind me, going, Gael, what's

40:54

going on? What's going what are you doing? What? Slow

40:57

down? I couldn't. I couldn't slow

40:59

down by that poet. It was so strong

41:01

the poll. I just went and kept

41:03

walking him. I can't hold back what

41:06

happened. I walked right up on his

41:08

body, walked right up on him.

41:11

Okay, guys, Narene Wir,

41:13

Gail Saint John, Alison Dubois,

41:16

Alison Dubois, could

41:18

you tell me? You told me your first experience,

41:21

but what was your most powerful psychic experience?

41:24

Um? I heard a voice say, your

41:26

dad's gonna die at sixty seven of a massive

41:29

heart attack. So I sent my dad

41:31

to all the heart specialists trying to

41:34

intervene and save him.

41:37

And he had been a professional ballroom dancer

41:39

for fifty years. He was in good

41:41

shape and he died at sixty seven

41:43

of a massive heart attack. And I

41:46

think that one was probably the most profound because

41:48

it was my father. Wow, you're really

41:50

hitting a nerve. Lost my dad and I

41:53

just miss him so much.

41:57

Narene Er, what was

41:59

your most powerful psychic

42:01

experience? Uh? Mine

42:04

was, of course my police work. For

42:06

the first five years, all I did was homicide

42:08

because I'm really bad with left and

42:10

right and I can get lost in a kmart,

42:13

so I never tried to find people.

42:16

I just told everybody I'm homicide. Well,

42:19

uh, FBI agent's life that

42:21

knew about my work contact me, and

42:23

her brother was missing in an airplane.

42:26

H And at first I want to do it, Okay, say

42:28

no, I don't do that, And then finally actually

42:30

brought me some stuff that he had touched,

42:32

a wallet and a coined thing, and

42:35

I did the case, and I gave launch situde and latitude

42:39

and the initials of the cities, and

42:41

they found in the plane that

42:43

it hadn't it was in a plane, of course, and hadn't

42:45

exploded. And I remember visually seeing

42:48

somebody carrying something in places

42:50

under a tree, uh and then walking

42:53

away and then I opened my eyes

42:55

and said, no, you just want him to be alive. I'm not doing

42:57

this anymore. And when they found the airplane,

43:00

it was a hit. This woman sitting under a tree

43:02

like somebody had carried her there, and her brother

43:04

had walked several yards away. But that

43:06

was my most because I'd never had been into

43:09

missing people and it was a whole whole

43:11

new and I'm really good at it now. Wow,

43:13

Gail Saint John, you told me how

43:16

you initially realized that

43:18

you had this extrasensory perception.

43:21

What was your most profound, your most powerful,

43:24

I guess psychic experience or vision. I

43:26

really got to say. It concerned my

43:29

grandmother. She was

43:31

living with us at the time, and

43:35

two days prior to her passing,

43:38

I was told about it, and it was

43:40

a semi dream state, but I

43:43

was very conscious of what was going on, I

43:45

think because at the time I was I was fourteen

43:47

years old. I really fought it and it

43:50

was painful and I want to ignore

43:52

it. And two days later she passed

43:54

away. And that's very powerful

43:57

and painful, and so

43:59

many things all at the same time with me. Renowned

44:02

psychics, so called psychic detectives

44:05

Narene Rnair, Gil Saint John, Alison

44:08

Dubois and skeptic Joseph

44:10

Scott Morgan. Ladies, thank

44:13

you for sharing with us. You know, Joe

44:15

Scott, I guess you and I will continue

44:18

putting forth hard evidence as we

44:20

call it, but it's very hard to

44:22

put on blinders and try to ignore

44:25

the stories that have been factually

44:28

corroborated from Alison

44:30

Dubois, Gail Saint John, and

44:33

Narene Rner, Nancy

44:36

Grace crime Stories signing up, goodbye

44:38

friend,