0:10

I'm Stephen McCaffin, this is the

0:12

Slate Culture Gap Dust American Fiction

0:14

Oscar Contender Edition. It's Wednesday,

0:16

January 31st, 2024. On

0:19

today's show, we kick off Oscar

0:21

season when we make sure we

0:24

cover every major nominee in the

0:26

run-up to the awards ceremony. We

0:28

start with American fiction. It comes

0:30

to us via writer-director, Cord Jefferson.

0:32

It's been heavily marketed as a

0:34

satire about race in the book

0:36

publishing industry, but it's also,

0:38

as one discovers in the theater, a

0:40

heartfelt family dramedy. It stars Jeffrey

0:43

Wright, and it's been nominated for

0:45

five Oscars, including Best Actor and

0:47

Picture. And then Mike

0:49

Judge, he of Beavis and Butthead

0:51

in Silicon Valley fame returns with

0:53

a stop-motion animated comedy In the

0:56

Know. It skewers a hopelessly narcissistic

0:58

NPR host, voiced by Zach Woods, and you

1:00

can find it on Peacock. And

1:03

finally, you know, there are Oscar snubs,

1:05

and then there are Oscar snubs. No

1:07

Greta, no Margot, no Leo. We discuss

1:09

some glaring omissions from the nominee

1:11

list. But first joining

1:14

me today is Sam Sanders, the esteemed

1:16

NPR vet and host of the podcast

1:18

Five Check, which drops every Wednesday. Sam,

1:20

welcome to the show. It's so

1:22

good to be here. I have been a fan for a very

1:24

long time, and I'm excited to be

1:26

chatting with y'all this episode. I

1:28

would love to hear that there are longtime fans out

1:31

there and that you're one of them is extra special.

1:33

So it's awesome and very kind of you to step

1:35

in. And of course,

1:37

Nadira Gough is also esteemed, and

1:39

she's the slate culture writer and

1:42

exceedingly, exceedingly old, ancient, even friend

1:44

of this program. That's something something

1:46

fop. Nadira, as always, just

1:49

a delight to have you on the show. Thanks

1:52

for having me. It's always so fun to be

1:54

here. All

1:56

right, let's dig in. Monk Ellison is a

1:58

novelist and a professor who's interested. and

2:00

talents were led to believe are hopelessly

2:02

non-commercial. Apparently he likes writing

2:04

novels based on Greek tragedies. When a

2:07

series of major life upheavals places him

2:09

in financial straits, he contemplates being something

2:11

he's resisted thus far. A

2:13

self-consciously black writer as opposed to simply

2:16

a writer who happens to be black,

2:18

what follows is a gutting satire of

2:20

the American publishing industry as it tries

2:22

to square its bad conscience with its

2:24

desire to move new product. Combined

2:27

with a deeply felt family

2:29

comedy drama, the film is

2:31

based on the novel Erasure by Percival

2:33

Everett and it's the directorial debut from

2:35

Cord Jefferson who also wrote the screenplay.

2:38

In the clip we're going to hear, you'll hear

2:40

Jeffrey Wright as Ellison. He's at a chain bookstore

2:42

and he realizes that his novels have

2:45

been placed in the African-American studies section

2:47

instead of the regular fiction section. Here

2:49

he is complaining to the store employee.

2:51

Let's have a listen. Wait

2:53

a minute, why are these books here? I'm

2:56

not sure. I would imagine

2:58

that this author, Ellison, is... Black.

3:01

That's me. Ellison.

3:03

Yeah. He is

3:06

me and he and I

3:08

are black. Oh bingo. No bingo

3:10

Ned. These books have nothing to do

3:13

with African-American studies. They're just literature. The

3:15

blackest thing about this one is the

3:17

ink. I

3:20

don't decide what sections the books go in and

3:23

no one here does. That's how chain

3:25

stores work. Right?

3:27

And you don't make the

3:29

rules. All

3:31

right. That bingo is a

3:34

great line reading. Nadeera, let's start

3:36

with you. I said this a couple times because

3:39

it really struck me how the trailer for the

3:41

film made it seem like a straight-up satire. Something

3:44

quite different on actually viewing it.

3:47

What did you make of this film? Yeah,

3:49

this film is, as you were saying,

3:51

sort of, in my opinion, two films

3:53

in one. And the

3:55

part I liked more than the very funny,

3:57

and I do want to say, it is...

4:00

very funny. Soterical meditation on

4:02

black representation in the publishing world and

4:04

art writ large is actually

4:06

the family drama and the depiction

4:08

of failure to generate some generational

4:11

wealth amongst the black family and

4:14

this sort of really interesting

4:16

dynamic between

4:18

the siblings when it comes to taking care

4:20

of ailing parents and

4:22

keeping the family together

4:26

and I found that to

4:28

be more interesting than the

4:32

satire that everyone is mostly focusing on.

4:36

I really want to talk about Tracy Ellis

4:38

Ross whom I love who

4:40

plays Lisa, Monk's younger sister in

4:43

this movie and Lisa is a

4:45

doctor who has stayed behind

4:47

to take care of their ailing mother

4:49

and the siblings there is Monk, Lisa

4:52

and then also a third

4:54

sibling named Cliff played by Sarah Lynn K. Brown

4:56

who is amazing as well in the film. Lisa

4:59

is a black woman and I

5:03

believe that she is younger than Monk

5:05

and as a black woman

5:07

who is the oldest of three siblings

5:09

I have personally had these conversations with

5:12

people about some of the

5:14

responsibility in taking care of older relatives

5:16

when they begin to need care and

5:18

there is a sort of ever flexible line between

5:20

whether or not you are forced to take the role because

5:22

you are the eldest or whether or not you are forced

5:24

to take the role because you are the most financially available

5:27

or whether or not you are forced to take

5:29

the role because you are the woman of the

5:31

siblings and I think that Tracy

5:33

Ellis Ross who has been in the

5:36

industry for so long and is so

5:38

talented finally gets a role where she

5:40

can balance some really nuanced expectations and

5:42

you know she balances not only the

5:44

expectations but the worry she has for

5:47

her brothers and also the resentment of

5:49

whatever answers to those questions that I

5:51

said were that she feels late in

5:53

her while her brothers can sort of

5:56

carry on totally unaware of what she

5:58

is sustaining and dealing with. And

6:00

she's in the movie for a relatively

6:03

short period of time compared to other

6:05

characters But I feel like her impact

6:07

in that movie is so strong And

6:09

I don't think that enough people are paying

6:12

attention to that specific part of it And

6:14

so yeah, I think that's really where I

6:16

want to start I don't necessarily want to

6:18

start with the novel or month or

6:20

Jeffrey Wright I want to start with Tracy

6:22

Ellis Ross because yeah seems like that's such

6:24

a foundational part of the movie to

6:26

me. Oh Here here

6:29

I mean in the little notes I

6:31

have for my comment I was gonna

6:33

start with her her funnily enough because

6:35

I totally agree. She's foundational to The

6:39

family story which is in some ways

6:41

totally central to the movie. She's a

6:43

very grounding very funny presence folks

6:46

change people's lives Something

6:49

I've written never changed your life But

6:57

Sam let's turn to you before I start the battle

6:59

um Maybe

7:06

start there about the mix between this satire

7:08

and this family drama. What did you make

7:10

of the balance of that? I

7:12

think he did what he had to do so

7:14

I've talked with core Jefferson who wrote the film and directed

7:16

the film on Vibe check

7:18

which had it for over an hour It's in

7:20

that podcast feed now And I should

7:22

disclose here that court and I are friends when

7:25

I was back in DC covering breaking news and

7:27

politics And when cord was

7:29

in DC as a journalist we were

7:31

in the same drinking circles And

7:33

we hung out a lot many many years ago We've

7:36

hung out a lot less since we've both been here in

7:38

Los Angeles But I called court a friend that I've known

7:40

him for over a decade now So

7:43

I realized the more that I've watched his film and talked

7:45

to him Had he just

7:47

made a straight-ahead black family drama none of us

7:50

would talk about it Yeah, when is

7:52

the last time a straight-ahead black family

7:54

drama got five Oscar nominations and as

7:56

much buzz as a American fiction got

7:59

cord the trailer he had to make to

8:01

get our attention. And

8:04

she drew us in with that and

8:06

then gave us like two films in one. So

8:08

I'm like, good for you, sir. Like kudos to

8:10

you. You did something that is actually really hard

8:12

to do. I

8:15

think that my

8:17

biggest takeaway from this film is

8:20

that it has to do the exact

8:23

same work that

8:26

it is critiquing in the

8:28

film. More Jefferson

8:31

is functioning in his career right now as

8:35

the character of Monk has had to function in

8:37

his career. Am I making things that

8:39

are black? Am I making things that are white? I

8:42

want to make things that speak to me,

8:44

but I need white gatekeepers to like what

8:46

I make. And you're watching this

8:48

dynamic play out with him making this movie. So

8:51

I think that's really captivating. I

8:53

do think if I'm comparing the family

8:56

drama half of the movie to

8:58

the racial publishing satire of the

9:00

movie, I like them both, but I

9:02

like the family drama better. I

9:05

think Tracy Ellis Ross is a movie star and

9:07

I told Cor this when we chatted. I

9:11

think that that wedding scene, and this

9:13

is not a spoiler, that wedding scene

9:15

towards the end of the film is

9:17

just truly magnificent and brings

9:19

happy tears to your eyes. And it's one of

9:21

the best music posts in the film that I've

9:23

heard in years. The song that they play while

9:25

they're all dancing. It's

9:36

called Let Love Flow On by Sonya

9:38

Spence. I've been playing that song

9:40

nonstop since the film was released.

9:43

I think this movie is

9:45

subversively brilliant because Cor does

9:48

a bait and switch and

9:50

still gives you a good self. Yeah, I'm

9:52

with both of you, I think. I came at

9:54

it from a different angle, which

9:56

is that satire is so flattening. It's

9:59

a flattening genre. or art, you

10:01

know, you have to turn real human

10:03

beings into caricatures, which sends

10:06

them in the direction of being two-dimensional.

10:08

But this movie is about a man

10:10

who's quintessentially not a caricature and then

10:12

makes himself into one. So

10:15

in a way, you sort of need both films so that

10:18

you have this, I think, very

10:20

funny but ultimately somewhat

10:23

broadly drawn, satiric portion, which

10:26

on a percentage basis may be 20% of the film. I

10:29

mean, it's a surprisingly small amount of

10:31

it, juxtaposed with

10:33

this completely

10:36

realistic, in

10:38

some ways very wrenching, multi-generational

10:42

family drama that's in the utterly

10:44

un-satoric mode, right? And it involves

10:46

without, you know, hope without spoiling

10:48

it, like serious illness, serious

10:50

like grievous loss, deep

10:52

family secrets, and bitter,

10:55

bitter, bitter, sibbly rivalry.

10:57

And I also want to shout out in addition

10:59

to Tracy Ellis

11:02

Ross, Sterling Brown as

11:05

Monk's brother. I thought that

11:07

was an incredible performance. Oscar nominated now. It

11:09

was phenomenal. I've had some conversations with like

11:11

other gays in my circles and they're like,

11:13

is this stereotypical? And I'm like, I don't

11:16

care. I like it. That's interesting. It's

11:19

fun. He's delivering. And he's, Sammy's

11:21

fucking angry. That character

11:23

is really, really dark,

11:26

bitter, funny. I think what

11:28

I actually love is that they're

11:30

all angry. They are all

11:33

angry. They just show it

11:35

in really different ways. And

11:37

that's something that it took a few

11:39

days for me to actually realize

11:42

or figure out. And I think what

11:44

I actually love about Monk, not to cut

11:46

you off, Steve, I'll let you get back to your point. No,

11:49

no, no, please. I really just want to say something

11:51

that I love about Monk is that.

11:53

Not only does he stay unapologetic to

11:55

seeing his hoax through, but I kind

11:57

of sort of hate that guy. And

12:00

I am. Here. Again, in

12:02

the specific way that he could learn. He.

12:04

Was girlfriend is amazing girl me

12:07

alexander and I don't like that.

12:09

who sat there is no no

12:11

it's a. Pretty apparent in in

12:13

the specific ways that he could let a

12:15

bull loosen a tennis up and be surprised

12:18

to walk in and find everything smashed to

12:20

bits and then have the nerve to blame

12:22

anyone who may actually think there's something salvageable

12:24

in it. but to rewrite is an edible.

12:27

At being that really gets.

12:30

Arrogant, annoying guy who's mean

12:32

to his girlfriend, but still

12:34

really captivating. Think

12:37

the way he shows anger. As

12:39

the juxtaposition to the way his sibling

12:41

so anger is really fascinating and a

12:43

part of what makes both sides actually

12:45

work for. Me but obviously makes the

12:48

family drama side work more be as

12:50

you get these portraits of people. Who

12:53

are sitting on enormous

12:55

reservoirs of pain? And

12:57

resentment visa v one another and

13:00

anger. And then you get a

13:02

little backstory plants here. A little

13:04

backstory glance there and you see

13:07

why. and not to me. Given

13:09

to three performances of the siblings,

13:12

that was enormously powerful to suddenly

13:14

see why he's so frightened and

13:16

his brothers so. Sharply

13:19

caught. Up Can we

13:21

talk about the ending? I'm. Intrigued

13:23

by how he finish this film and

13:25

I think it was a beautiful middle

13:28

finger to expectations but I wonder what

13:30

your take on it is so. For.

13:33

me long story short this trailer for

13:35

american six in that sets up his

13:37

racial satire about publishing industry a primes

13:39

you to expect at some point in

13:41

the some jeffrey wright character the black

13:44

male lead monk you expect him to

13:46

have some moment where he has a

13:48

i'm not gonna take it anymore he

13:50

alceste you expect a soliloquy a monologues

13:52

and which he tells the good white

13:55

liberals that they're actually bad and he

13:57

yells and then your fist raises and

14:00

That never happens. That never happens in this

14:02

movie. And at first I was like, am

14:04

I mad about that? Did I

14:07

not get the catharsis I wanted in this film

14:09

because Jeffrey Wright didn't have his monologue at the

14:11

end? And then I was like, you know

14:13

what? This entire movie,

14:15

I think, is about fooling

14:19

and disappointing good

14:22

white liberals and good black liberals'

14:24

expectations. This is a movie that makes you

14:26

think it's going one way and then it goes another.

14:28

So of course it's going to give you an ending

14:31

that is good but kind of a head scratcher. And

14:33

I like that. Can

14:35

I be a point of contention?

14:37

Can I be a fly in the ointment? Yeah,

14:40

because I feel this way about the film today but next week

14:42

it might change. Of all the film discosters' season, I've gone the

14:44

most up and down with this one. Same.

14:47

I completely agree. And here's the thing

14:49

about this movie, and I think this

14:51

is also my sort of issue with

14:53

the ending, which isn't actually an

14:55

issue with the ending, but just is a sort

14:57

of exasperation with the movie, which

15:00

is that I'm sort of tired of

15:02

this belabored question amongst black creatives that

15:05

is pondering the acceptance from majority

15:07

white audiences or white powers that

15:09

be in their industries about the

15:12

best, most financially successful ways to

15:14

kowtow to white audiences. And in

15:17

that way I do think the film sort of

15:19

still feels dated to 2001, which is when the

15:21

book that it was based off of. And

15:24

I think the tension specifically between

15:27

Monk and Issa Rae's character to

15:29

me is maybe the biggest

15:31

signifier of that. And that's never

15:33

resolved, which I found quite interesting.

15:36

And I agree with that too. I actually like that

15:38

that was never resolved. But

15:40

Ayesha Harris mentioned this in her NPR review,

15:42

and I found myself wondering this while watching

15:44

as well, in

15:47

a movie that is supposedly

15:49

set in today, where is the concern

15:51

about black Twitter? Where are the collegiate

15:53

discussions of the book amongst black

15:56

groups on campuses? What are

15:58

the conversations about how... Black

16:00

people feel about the works that are quote-unquote black

16:02

experiences written for white consumption. Where

16:05

are they in in the film? Well, yeah,

16:08

yeah, and I think when it got to the

16:10

end I It wasn't

16:12

necessarily that I was disappointed with the

16:14

ending which I don't know

16:17

I also go back and forth on some days. I like it

16:19

some days. I I don't But

16:22

it was more Like

16:24

why are we ending it now? There's so much more

16:26

interesting stuff that I Want

16:28

to get into Yeah,

16:31

I do think you know you allude to

16:33

this question like what would black Twitter think

16:35

of this book I think based

16:38

on the source material The

16:40

conversation around race in the book in the film happens

16:43

before black Twitter exists right and I think that

16:45

had the central question of Black

16:48

acceptance of black art or whatever had that

16:50

question been originally written in a book by

16:52

Percival Everett in 2023

16:54

or 4 it would have been different

16:56

I also think that this question will

16:59

increasingly become obsolete as the monoculture continues

17:01

to die and everyone is just finding

17:03

their Microcommunities anyway, you know

17:06

like the next great black author might

17:08

just it makes me feel better like

17:10

I Long

17:13

for a day when we don't have like the

17:15

black film of the year or yeah I

17:18

long for the day when fans

17:20

of things can build micro community is strong

17:22

enough and big enough to support that stuff

17:24

away from The gaze of

17:26

the majority right? I really long for that

17:29

So micro communities that still have power to

17:31

actually make stuff that that's my right, right?

17:33

Yeah. Yeah We're good and like I

17:35

think that is the future and I think had

17:37

monk been a writer Who

17:40

has started writing in the age of internet and social

17:43

media? He might have found his micro community of Nerds

17:46

who like black guys writing their chip

17:48

in the back. Yeah The

17:54

central questions of this movie are still grappling with

17:56

monoculture. Yeah, and that is a conversation that I

17:58

don't think we're gonna be having in 10 years.

18:01

So it's a good chord made this

18:03

movie now, not 10 years from now.

18:05

Right, right, right. I love it. All

18:08

right, well I like it when we

18:10

can end this segment with a quasi-utopian

18:12

note. We'll curtail it there. All right,

18:14

the movie is American fiction. It's out

18:16

in theaters now. It's been heavily nominated.

18:19

Jeffrey Wright's wonderful in it. Multiple great

18:21

ensemble cast performances. Check it out. This

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FDIC. Terms apply. Steve, I

19:27

think you're probably with me on this. I know when

19:30

I have money that I've earned in one of these

19:32

rewards programs, my favorite thing to spend it on is

19:34

travel. And I know you're a huge travel guy. Do

19:36

you have any big trips on the calendar for this

19:38

year or some dream destination you've been wanting to visit?

19:41

Okay, it's funny that you

19:43

should ask that, but I've been laboring

19:45

over an essay about George Orwell and

19:47

the conditions under which he wrote his

19:50

iconic novel 1984, which

19:53

he wrote on this

19:55

Scottish island, island in the

19:57

inner Hebrides called Jura. And

19:59

I'm... Going to go there

20:01

now that I've read extensively about

20:03

Orwell's life there. I mean, he

20:06

set up a homestead. He loved

20:08

it. He built hen houses, insist

20:10

for lobsters and seafood. And

20:13

it was living that way that

20:15

he wrote. You know, arguably one

20:17

of the most important masterpieces of

20:19

twentieth century section at least in

20:21

English. It's so amazing that's a

20:23

great dystopian novel of the twentieth century was

20:25

written it utopia. Satisfied you nailed

20:28

it. Does Sats exactly that

20:30

kind of. Antithesis really that

20:32

I'm setting up in the essay. Anyway,

20:34

exploring that relationship in his own sort

20:37

of creative mind and prophecies has been

20:39

a real journey. Wow. I really

20:41

hope you get to go there and I can't wait to read this

20:43

as a. Parent

20:47

knows the moment in our podcast when

20:49

we discuss business. We have just one

20:51

item this week that's to tell listeners

20:53

about today's sleep plus segments. This week

20:55

we're going to discuss an interactive peace

20:57

in the New York Times called the

20:59

Menu Trends that the Fine Dining right

21:01

now folks at the Times collected. One

21:03

hundred and twenty one menus from across

21:05

the United States tried to recognize patterns,

21:07

will discuss some of their findings and

21:10

talk about menu trends that we like

21:12

and dislike. If you're a sleepless member,

21:14

make sure to stick around for that

21:16

conversations. At the End of the

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today at slate.com/culture plus. Again

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that's slate.com/ culture

22:09

plus. Alright on with the show.

22:13

Okay well sitcom auteur Mike Judge has

22:15

given us such shows as Beavis and

22:17

Butthead, King of the Hill, Silicon

22:19

Valley. He returns now to

22:22

Peacock, the streaming service Peacock, with

22:24

the show In the Know. It's

22:26

an animated stop-motion workplace sitcom centered

22:28

on a character named Lauren Caspian.

22:31

He is host of

22:33

NPR's third most popular show. He

22:35

is self-centered oblivious sold on his own

22:38

goodness. In addition to this

22:40

very the office like sitcom it features a

22:43

cast of annoying eccentrics. There

22:45

are interviews with real celebrities who

22:47

appear as their non-animated 3D selves.

22:49

In the clip we're going to

22:51

hear Zach Woods as the

22:53

radio host Lauren Caspian. You'll also hear

22:55

Caitlin Riley as Fabian, one of the

22:58

show's producers. Jay Smith Cameron

23:00

as Barb, the executive producer of the

23:02

show. And let's have a listen. Great

23:05

interview Lauren. No it's a

23:07

team effort. I'm merely the big daddy.

23:10

Oh I also want to let everyone

23:12

know that that homeless gentleman is still

23:14

in the bedroom. Barb? Huh? That is

23:16

hate speech. He is an

23:18

unhoused person. Actually the preferred term is

23:20

person who is currently without housing. No

23:22

I don't think so. Are you sure?

23:24

Yes. Oh I'm sorry I'm

23:26

really very empathetic to the man situation.

23:29

I volunteer at a homeless shelter. No

23:31

you volunteer at an unhoused shelter.

23:33

A shelter for persons currently without

23:35

housing. Well it just feels very

23:37

clunky. Oh I'm sorry is it

23:39

too inconvenient to treat vulnerable populations

23:41

with respect? How dare you? I

23:43

was using the term Inuit back

23:45

in the 90s. I've been spelling

23:47

women with a Y since before

23:49

I could spell my name. Oh

23:52

my god. It's so bad. Can I

23:55

say that? I can't even hold it.

23:57

You don't even need a question. You're

23:59

ready. I'm sorry. Let's

24:02

stop. You really think making

24:05

jokes about white liberals

24:07

angst over what to call homeless people.

24:09

You think that's new? You think that's

24:11

fun? He just like

24:13

he consistently acts like grabbing the

24:16

lowest hanging fruit. He

24:19

acts like that's a five course meal. It ain't. So

24:22

much of the humor in this show was entirely

24:24

predictable, entirely predictable.

24:27

It just felt stale and flat to me. I also

24:29

think that like I was gaming this out. I was

24:31

like, all right, let's say this scenario actually happened in

24:33

an NPR office. I can speak to this because I

24:35

worked at NPR for 13 years and

24:38

I was an NPR host myself for

24:40

five or six of them. Let

24:43

me tell you something about NPR. It

24:45

is a company that has facilities

24:47

and operations management. And

24:50

there are adults watching the store who would

24:52

say, we can't have an unhoused man in

24:54

this bathroom all day. And so to see

24:56

him let this scene play out like that

24:58

and so many other scenes play out like

25:00

that, it felt very much like that episode

25:02

of Euphoria where all the

25:04

teenagers get in a fight at the

25:06

school play. And the fight keeps

25:08

going on and never stops and you're like,

25:10

where are the administrators? Where is the vice

25:12

principal? Where is the principal? They

25:14

do exist. It's the same

25:16

thing happening with this show. Like

25:19

you have all these dumb liberals and no one's

25:21

keeping the store. There's always someone keeping the store

25:23

at NPR because it's a company that must make

25:25

money. And so that was my first big quip with

25:27

it. So Nadira, point

25:31

taken, this probably doesn't represent

25:33

what the interior of NPR

25:36

offices in DC or the various

25:38

regional outposts around the country are

25:40

like. One could

25:42

still make a funny show that's fanciful about

25:44

that. Did they do that? I

25:47

don't know. I guess. I

25:49

don't have the experience of working for

25:51

public radio or working at NPR, but

25:55

I do love a workplace

25:58

satire and a workplace comedy. And

26:00

I didn't necessarily hate

26:02

or love this show

26:04

at most points, I

26:07

think. speaker. Or smoke.

26:10

I think because of what Sam was

26:12

talking about earlier because. It

26:15

is sort of predictable. And in

26:17

many ways I mostly sound it to

26:19

be. Boring. Again,

26:22

These are not characters that I haven't heard

26:24

before a muzzle any or myself. The character

26:26

Fabian I found to be quite annoying. But

26:29

also, I get it that you know this

26:31

is some people want to make fun of

26:33

us. It's it's fine. It's nothing I haven't

26:35

heard before the and that's kind of how

26:37

I thought about most of the South. But

26:39

with that being said, I'd. I

26:41

do think it has it's funny moments. You

26:43

know someone told me that I looked like an

26:45

undercover cop and ever live in concert I would

26:48

cry. and I think the joke about J

26:50

Lo potentially being a victim of wage theft

26:52

is actually really funny given those rumors that signatories

26:54

we have stopped people see dined with from tipping

26:56

service so you know and has it's funny

26:58

moments. But I really want to talk about

27:00

the sort of. The. Style,

27:02

Different Seasons and the So So.

27:04

The actual So is stop motion

27:07

with puppets and I love sought

27:09

most anything. Submission is so of

27:11

awkward, isn't really specific and obviously

27:13

handcrafted ways but then when worn

27:15

interviews people on the So these

27:17

are real celebrities who are just

27:19

in their regular digital form as

27:22

if they are on a video

27:24

chats and it's really clear that

27:26

they are improving with these celebrities

27:28

and the names that they get.

27:30

For this show run the gamut from pie

27:32

a Gerber and seek an in at her

27:34

Mike Tyson. Extolling the facets of violence and

27:37

state of mind and ken. Burns and Hugh

27:39

Laurie and I actually did not like been as

27:41

yeah. I think of my favorite part of the

27:43

saw: his effort. And energy will

27:45

just said process their jeeps and for

27:47

Lopez obviously I'm not familiar issue victim

27:50

of which best Oh honey. I

27:53

really actually likes those interviews, but

27:55

I think that's kind of as.

27:57

far as i got the sap most and was cool

28:00

the knitwear that the puppets were wearing was

28:02

really cool. Whoever took their little fingers and made

28:04

all those tiny sweaters did a great job. And

28:06

I really liked the celebrities. So

28:10

I'm curious to hear you guys speak to

28:12

this. So Slate's

28:14

podcasting division was more or less started by

28:16

an NPR veteran. Most

28:19

of our producers have worked for NPR, shuffle

28:21

back and forth between us and them. Those

28:25

panelists have gone on NPR shows, various

28:27

places, became familiar with an

28:29

institution I only knew as a listener during

28:31

most of my life because of the show.

28:34

To me, what I love about it is

28:36

my wife is from the deep south, right?

28:38

And she grew up very

28:41

much in but not of it. And

28:44

so for her, NPR was

28:46

this oasis of contemplative,

28:51

thoughtful, totally

28:54

nonsensicalistic, and journalistic journalism.

28:56

When we used to go visit her grandparents down

28:58

in Alabama, just the fact that all you needed

29:01

to do is shove the radio dial in the

29:03

car all the way to the left, search

29:06

about for three minutes, and you were

29:08

going to land on some little college

29:10

radio station that is an NPR affiliate.

29:13

And there was something enormously reassuring

29:16

about its ubiquity through every

29:18

part of the American continent, no matter where

29:20

you are. To me, it's an amazing American

29:22

institution. It

29:24

has foibles, but it's a very gentle bad

29:26

guy if you're searching for bad guys. Why

29:30

treat it with this level of contempt? Because

29:32

for me, the dominant note of

29:35

this show is that it seems

29:37

to genuinely hate this lead character,

29:39

right? This figure is utterly hateful

29:41

to the people who created this

29:43

television show. There's nothing

29:45

redeemable or interesting or good

29:47

or even intelligent about him. He's

29:50

just a pretentious dweeb. And

29:54

some of that shit lands on me,

29:56

right? So of course the show makes

29:58

me angry and receptive. response, but

30:01

am I misreading it? Am I just taking it

30:03

personally in this weird, I mean they don't have

30:05

me in mind, don't get me wrong, I'm not

30:07

deluded, but am I wrong? It's mean-spirited.

30:12

I, one, I think that like

30:15

it's possible to respect a place like

30:17

NPR and also market Mercily

30:19

because you know companies aren't people, companies

30:21

are made of people. I

30:24

think watching this horrible

30:26

host, I did feel

30:28

like some of it was like speaking right to

30:30

me, a former NPR host. It's like, oh shit,

30:32

am I a man who talks over women in

30:34

interviews? Oh shit, am I

30:36

a man who in interviews tries to virtue

30:39

signal through my interview questions, right? Like all

30:41

these things, it's like good questions to ask,

30:43

but I think what

30:46

the creators of this show are doing

30:48

when they mock this NPR host so

30:50

mercilessly, they're also mocking NPR listeners. They're

30:52

also mocking the people who listen to

30:54

these folks all the time and prop

30:56

them up. The reason Lauren the host is

30:58

such a dick and feels so entitled

31:01

to be a dick is because there's probably thousands of listeners

31:03

who tell him every day that he's great,

31:06

right? I'm actually friends

31:08

with a few of the people who

31:10

consulted on this show from NPR and

31:12

my good friend Elise Hieu who's talked

31:14

about this with Vulture, she was like,

31:16

yeah, this show is critiquing the NPR

31:19

audience as much as it is NPR

31:21

listeners. And as someone who got

31:23

NPR letters from NPR listeners for years, you

31:26

think NPR hosts are bad. Some of

31:28

these listeners, I mean truly pieces of

31:30

work. And I'm

31:32

all about content

31:35

that is hopefully asking

31:37

those folks to be introspective. I

31:39

think my largest issue though with this show is

31:41

that by

31:43

parodying extreme liberal woke whiteness, it's

31:46

still centering whiteness. And

31:49

NPR, quiet as it's kept, is

31:52

not quite as white as this show wants you

31:54

to believe. And I would

31:56

love to have seen more of the interplay

31:58

of an organization and people. grappling

32:01

with how a very white

32:03

organization becomes less white. That

32:06

as a workplace trauma or workplace comedy

32:08

would have interested me. But

32:11

you don't get that in the workplace comedy parts of

32:13

the show. You just don't get it. Yeah,

32:16

I also just want to push back on, I don't

32:19

know, okay here's my history with NPR. So

32:22

when I was a kid I wanted

32:24

to listen to nothing but the Disney

32:26

Channel radio station and my

32:28

grandmother once told me in her

32:31

Subaru Outback that her

32:33

radio was broken and only played NPR. And so for

32:35

the longest, and

32:39

I believed her. And so for the longest time,

32:43

I sort of, that was hanging over

32:45

the head of my relationship with NPR

32:47

I guess. But I came to love it and

32:49

enjoy it in my adult years,

32:51

my more formative years. And

32:54

with that, I

32:56

want to sort of push back on the

32:58

idea that public radio or NPR specifically isn't

33:01

sensational. I feel like there's one part

33:03

of the show that I actually really

33:05

identified with, which is, and I don't

33:07

necessarily remember who Lauren is

33:09

interviewing at the time, but there's

33:12

this notion that Lauren presents a

33:14

safe space but it's actually mining

33:16

for dirt to exploit

33:18

the guests, right? So they put

33:20

on their NPR voice and they're like, now tell

33:22

me about the most traumatic point in your life.

33:25

Or tell me about your parents'

33:28

drama or whatever. Tell me about

33:30

that car crash a few years ago. You

33:32

can have sensational content without people yelling. Exactly.

33:34

And let me tell you something, in my

33:36

many years as an NPR host, I got

33:38

to be really good at using

33:41

the whisper talk voice to throw

33:43

a motherfucking punch. So I would have loved

33:47

for that to be more explored, right? I guess

33:50

what we're both saying is, the most

33:52

interesting place is to really dig

33:55

deep in a contemplative discussion

33:58

of NPR and what it means. go

34:00

there. He didn't go there. It was just

34:02

low hanging fruit. Yeah, I second

34:04

that, Sam. And also, I have to say,

34:06

I didn't find it very funny.

34:08

There were some chuckles, some yucks.

34:11

I thought some of the celebrity

34:13

interview questions were so hilariously mind-bendingly

34:16

absurd. That was kind of fun. And

34:18

watching them respond to that on the

34:20

fly was pretty good. Anyway,

34:22

the show is in the know. It's

34:24

on Peacock. Check it out and let us know

34:26

what you think. All right, let's

34:28

move on. Our

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Terms apply. Well

36:18

I mean what did the Oscars exist for Nadeera

36:20

if not to talk about the Oscars? Actually watching

36:22

it's a bit of a bore and who wins

36:24

turns out to be in retrospect

36:27

largely irrelevant sometimes hilariously

36:30

so and yet to

36:32

chew over it over think it go

36:34

meta go meta upon meta. Here we

36:37

are right and it this year it

36:39

handed us the juiciest piece of red

36:41

meat in not

36:44

nominating Greta Gerwig for best

36:46

director for Barbie even though Barbies nominated for

36:48

best picture and is the highest grossing film

36:51

of the year and the Oscars have paid

36:53

more attention to commercial outcomes in

36:55

I would argue over the last roughly decade

36:58

and known nomination for best

37:00

actress for Margot Robbie. Now

37:03

every year they're going to be snubs.

37:05

There's garden variety snubs. There's Leonardo DiCaprio

37:07

not getting nominated for best actor for

37:10

Killers the Flower Moon but these aren't

37:12

garden variety. I think for

37:14

a fairly obvious reason this is a

37:16

feminist picture that cleaned up at the

37:18

box office and got some rave rave

37:20

rave reviews. What's going on here? Gosh.

37:26

I'm sort of afraid to say what I actually think

37:28

is going on here. Which is basically just white feminism.

37:35

I don't know can you necessarily call it a snub

37:38

if both Greta Gerwig and Margot Robbie are

37:40

nominated for Oscars? I don't know if

37:42

you can call it an Oscar snub

37:44

if they're nominated. I mean Gerwig is

37:46

also nominated for adapted screenplay and

37:48

yeah Robbie is nominated for a producer

37:50

and you know by form of best

37:52

picture and the movie made

37:55

a billion dollars. It is the

37:57

only woman directed picture to ever

37:59

do. Also, it is inherently a

38:01

commercial. I think all things considered,

38:04

the movie is fine. They are fine.

38:06

They are rolling in their money. They're

38:08

doing okay. The reason

38:10

this discourse startles me is because

38:13

besides the fact that it got

38:15

so widespread that Hillary Clinton

38:17

is making public statements about

38:19

the valiant achievements of these

38:21

women in Hollywood, like, girl.

38:25

Like, Hillary, why are you in

38:27

it? Why are you in it? No

38:31

one is sort of doing the math to

38:34

figure that if these women were to get

38:36

nominated in these categories, then other women in

38:38

these categories would have to go where other

38:40

people would have to go. And

38:42

I, you know, what do we say

38:45

to Justine Triet, who directed Anatomy of

38:47

a Fall, or what do we say

38:49

to the other women who also gave

38:51

amazing performances that were nominated for Best

38:53

Actress? You know, I... What do you say

38:55

to America Ferreira, a woman who didn't get a nomination out

38:57

of this movie? Okay,

39:00

I wrote an entire piece about how much I love

39:02

America Ferreira and how much I love to see her

39:04

get nominated for this award, even though I don't think

39:06

her performance, and technically the script, actually

39:09

makes her worthy of it. But yeah, it's

39:11

sort of ironic to see these calls of,

39:13

you know, we've got to protect feminism and

39:15

this is a front against feminism from people

39:17

who frankly just haven't mentioned calls for feminism

39:19

in other areas where it is sort of

39:22

gravely needed right now. But

39:24

I do think the uproar

39:26

about this quote unquote snub,

39:28

which I don't actually think is a snub,

39:30

is actually sort of very telling about

39:33

the way feminism in

39:35

a mainstream sense continues

39:37

to operate. Well,

39:39

I guess just in the mainstream, but particularly in America.

39:43

And so I think it's a really interesting sort

39:46

of experiment to just watch play out in

39:48

real time, but it definitely had me scratching

39:50

my head. And one

39:52

thing we should point out though is that, you

39:55

know, they expanded one

39:57

category to ten nominees. And

40:00

Barbie, you sort of feel as though slipped

40:02

in in the bottom five of the 10

40:04

nominees for Best Picture in some sense. And

40:07

so you can understand why that

40:10

might not quite compensate

40:13

for no director nominee.

40:15

But then as you guys point out, well

40:19

go over the five best actress nominees.

40:21

Who are you bumping in that list,

40:23

right? Go over the five best director

40:25

nominees. Who are you bumping in that

40:27

list in order to slot in Gerwig

40:29

and Robbie respectively. I

40:32

mean, extra inflammatory is that there's a

40:34

best actor nomination for Ryan Gosling, the

40:37

man in the film. Merited, unmerited,

40:39

scandalous, or he was just

40:42

maybe like that good in

40:44

the movie. Merited. Yeah,

40:47

merited. I

40:49

mean, this is my thing

40:51

with the snub of Margot

40:53

Robbie. When

40:58

you watch that movie, who

41:00

actually has the most meat in the film? Who

41:02

gets the song? Who gets the choreo?

41:05

Who says more words? Who does more

41:07

things? Ken. And

41:10

like Greta wrote that, right? So

41:13

Greta wrote a fuller character for Ken than she

41:15

wrote for Barbie. And

41:17

it perfectly makes sense that Ken gets

41:19

a nomination given what happens in that

41:21

movie. It's really hard

41:23

for the Academy to honor the kind

41:25

of work that Margot Robbie did for

41:28

Barbie. She's asked

41:30

to play this role that is flat and

41:32

stiff because it's a doll. And

41:35

no actress nomination at the

41:37

Oscars can acknowledge, will acknowledge,

41:39

does acknowledge the production work

41:42

that Margot Robbie did to get this

41:44

film made. You'll recall when Mattel wanted

41:46

to make Barbie, they went to Margot

41:48

first, and then Margot found Greta, and

41:50

then Margot said, Greta, let's do this.

41:52

So I wish there were a hybrid

41:55

actress-producer Oscar that she could be nominated

41:57

for because that's what she's doing. But

41:59

yeah. if it's just me watching the movie

42:01

and saying who has the better performance, it's

42:05

Ken slash Ryan Gosselin because he has

42:07

more to work with. And I cannot

42:09

blame the patriarchy for that because Greta

42:11

Gerwig wrote the movie. I

42:13

100% agree with everything

42:15

you just said, Sam. And I think, I

42:19

just feel as though our time would

42:21

be better spent talking about other actors

42:23

or creators who were actually snubbed.

42:26

When I think about Charles Melton

42:28

and I think about the sort of

42:30

really fiery round he had. All

42:32

of May, December. There should have been three active

42:34

nominations for May, December. 100%

42:37

agree. May, December was great.

42:39

Charles Melton as a Riverdale

42:41

alumnus was amazing. I Juliet

42:44

Moore's lisp. Juliet Moore's lisp. It's

42:46

so good. The cast of

42:48

Past Lives also, you know,

42:51

no nomination. And when I think

42:53

about the movie, 2001 the Tiana Taylor led

42:55

movie, which

42:59

was one of my favorite movies of last

43:01

year and I think did top a fair

43:03

number of top 10 lists from

43:05

critics. And I think about how

43:07

silent the discussion about

43:09

that movie has been come award season.

43:12

I get actively

43:14

angry. Tiana Taylor

43:16

is someone who has been fighting

43:18

against the industry her entire career, whether

43:20

it be in her music career

43:22

or her acting career or what

43:24

have you. And she finally gets

43:26

this phenomenal breakout role, which Rosiah

43:28

Cross playing opposite her. And she's

43:31

so good. She's so good in

43:33

this movie that is well written,

43:36

that is well shot and well

43:38

directed, that is beautiful and heartbreaking

43:40

and no one makes a sound

43:42

about it. Even though it's

43:44

a depiction of a black woman who is

43:46

a single mother who, you

43:48

know, is trying to provide for her son. It's all

43:51

of the things that we sort of claim

43:53

that we're hailing when we're talking about

43:55

feminism and we're talking about intersectional

43:57

feminism and there are crickets.

44:00

There is no one talking about it. But

44:02

instead we are again talking about a movie

44:04

that made a billion dollars Why?

44:07

Yeah, why well and

44:09

when you look at the kind of conversation

44:12

about feminism that Barbie is having and it

44:14

is a movie about Feminism it

44:16

is feminism 101, right? It

44:19

is things are hard for women compared

44:21

to men and it does not

44:23

at all ever Get

44:25

into any kind of intersectionality, you

44:27

know, there's a trans Barbie in

44:30

that movie They don't address transness,

44:32

you know, there is black president

44:34

Issa Rae Barbie who never addresses

44:36

racism There is a character who

44:38

feels like he's gay But we never say

44:40

he's gay and then Kate McKinnon is clearly

44:43

lesbian Barbie and we don't say and

44:45

also Margot and Greta

44:48

don't need to be saved. That's what I don't like

44:50

about this conversation People taking

44:52

up arms to defend these really wealthy

44:54

women who are never gonna suffer for

44:57

work ever I

45:02

made over a billion dollars. I think I

45:04

think that they are fine Can

45:06

I just push back a tiny bit on that

45:09

because I get it You

45:11

got to size the violin to the

45:13

pity party, you know, and yeah, I

45:16

I don't disagree that You

45:18

know people who are You

45:20

know as you say swimming in accolades money

45:22

and status from this movie You can still

45:25

be a little stung and it

45:27

may even be somewhat in some respects meaningful that

45:29

the community in which you make your projects You

45:32

know pointedly fails to honor the work you've

45:34

done It's hard not to find

45:36

a significance in it. That's apart from you

45:38

know All the other success you might have

45:40

had from the project the point taken world

45:43

smallest violin here Here's

45:46

the thing I Actually

45:48

think that snubs are worth talking about

45:50

perhaps It's just my broken media

45:52

culture brain that loves talking about them

45:55

I just don't necessarily agree that this

45:57

is a snub But when I think about.

46:00

Adele winning her Grammy for Album of

46:03

the year, standing in front of Beyond

46:05

Say and saying that Beyond Say deserved

46:07

it. And then beyond Me losing again.

46:10

To. Different hairstyle. Oh right there with her.

46:12

The isles. Yeah there I carry

46:14

sales who I love but stood

46:16

on stage and said this never

46:19

happens to people like me Ah.

46:22

Again, I. Get angry.

46:24

I get genuinely upset. It feels like

46:26

you can be again like you were

46:28

saying the that feels like. You

46:31

can have all of the money and you

46:34

can reach a mass audiences, but it does.

46:36

Hurt to not be recognized by.

46:38

Your Peers Or to actually be recognized

46:41

by your peers who stand on stage

46:43

and say that you deserve the word

46:45

they are currently holding. But to not

46:47

be recognized for the people who actually

46:50

make those decisions about who gets the

46:52

award. Yeah. And like when

46:54

I think of snobs at a worse

46:56

as like the oscars, I think like

46:58

one of the oscars Really? for and

47:01

who do they help the most? I'm.

47:03

On Oscar for grad a Gerwig

47:05

of Muslims helpful to grow to

47:07

gerwig win an Oscar for someone

47:09

no one knew about before. And

47:11

so with these nominations I'm most

47:13

excited about the Once Upon A

47:15

came out of nowhere. I'm excited

47:17

that now Port Jefferson is going

47:20

to be getting great work for

47:22

years. Because. Raven Six and and

47:24

examinations. it might not want any oscars,

47:26

but like nomination opens a door and

47:28

so when I think of snobs, I

47:30

want to think about that And I

47:33

wanna think about how the Oscars In

47:35

other words, those are actually function the

47:37

best when they open doors for folks

47:39

who never heard of. not when they

47:41

give more flowers to be richest, most

47:44

successful woman director of all time from

47:46

about Syria or I will will leave

47:48

it there. I'm sure there's gonna be

47:50

a lot of firm opinions and back.

47:52

And forth on this one moments Know you said.

47:54

let's move on. This.

47:57

Episode is brought to you by S A

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help.com/culture.

49:49

Right now is the moment and are pack as we

49:52

endorse Sam. Let's start with you. what would you bring

49:54

is this week? I'm bring

49:56

gain an old album that I

49:58

have been loving loving. The in

50:00

for a few months now and it's all

50:02

I tell my friends about when they ask

50:05

what I'm listening to actually have it on

50:07

by an All Right Here to show you

50:09

guys it is an album by the Arm

50:11

Be group Labelle called Chameleon. Labelle.

50:15

Is Patty Labelle was. Singing.

50:17

Group that she had before she went

50:19

solo. It's her and two other women

50:22

and they can saying this is the

50:24

cover art for Chameleon. Isn't it beautiful?

50:26

Yes! Yes, And if you'd best the front. This.

50:29

Is the bat and what I'm

50:31

showing. Ah these other folks are

50:33

on the my With me is

50:35

this album cover that has Patty

50:37

and Or costars and the most

50:39

beautiful Afro futurist get up with

50:41

their mouths open teeth smile lane

50:43

and a sets you up for

50:45

an album that is full of

50:47

our and be fuck. Dazzle!

50:51

They are singing top

50:53

to bottom every track.

51:11

And I love about this album is that

51:13

all of them can saying something happen around

51:16

the eighties or nineties. You know aren't groups

51:18

for groups? Girl groups that sort of the

51:20

have like one person who could really saying

51:23

and the rest of them com a couldn't

51:25

Everyone in Mabelle can sing ah this album

51:27

Chameleon. I put it on on vinyl in

51:29

the morning as I'm making my car seats

51:32

as I'm starting my day and it just

51:34

gives me this bolts of energy if you

51:36

want to pick me up, if you want

51:38

to arm the work out to, if you

51:41

just. Wanna hear some good thing?

51:43

A in this old Labelle album

51:45

called Million is delightful. Ends. Going.

51:48

Back to that history of Patty

51:50

at that time. It really makes

51:52

you respect her more as kind

51:54

of the mother of Afro futurism

51:56

in pop, and we see that

51:58

legacy directly and. Everything beyond say

52:01

is done visually. Around Renaissance it

52:03

is. Wonderful to see that through

52:05

line and it's always a good moment

52:07

to listen the paddle the bell saying

52:09

come on Jaffa Yeah Labelle Chameleon. Nadira.

52:13

What the would you have for us? So.

52:15

Not to be one note,

52:17

but my endorsement is quite

52:19

similar. Oh.

52:22

Yeah I okay. First of all, one thing

52:24

I want to say about Miss Paddy is

52:26

that. I'm from Philly said I see

52:29

from failures as I know we love

52:31

ourselves a silly girl and suggest speaking

52:33

of. Silly. Groups Silk

52:35

the soul funk group from

52:38

Philadelphia that release the. Album:

52:40

Midnight Dancer and Nineteen Seventy Nine When

52:42

silk of meetings in my bedroom saying

52:44

no, no, neither So you're gonna have

52:46

is the right some not. To be confused

52:48

with the Nineteen Nineties. Army Mail Group for

52:50

Atlanta, Georgia of the same way. I'm

52:53

happy I found this Frees me Not

52:55

that groups seen a self tax of

52:57

their music. Different groups of we're talking

52:59

about soul funk group in the silly

53:01

saw era that really thousand minute. The

53:04

Answer: Ninety seventy nine. Minutes.

53:23

I love that album. I find often

53:25

overlooked in the general discussion of seventies,

53:28

eighties soul, funk, and been from Philly.

53:30

I'm trying to learn more about the

53:32

more unsung artists. Of the city's whole era.

53:34

So being a fan of minute. Dancer the album.

53:37

I plugged that into the spot if I

53:39

function where you can create a radio station,

53:42

be some a song or artist and I

53:44

got as mine of great music. Suggestions that

53:46

I had never heard before are some that

53:48

I had heard before but had forgotten about

53:50

including a beautiful song called silly wasn't I

53:53

buy Valerie Simpson as in half of Ashford

53:55

in some sense. Music by Odyssey's both Odyssey

53:57

Dance with apparently there were two the and

53:59

pulled out of the i always thought that

54:01

they were one band but that's fresh. Pot

54:04

has a song from "Ladder More" is

54:06

nineteen seventy six album, "It ain't where

54:08

you Ben Sonia spends his son left

54:11

the love flow. Which on and let

54:13

me know. Look a little bit more insert

54:15

Sony Spence who was a Jamaican singer and

54:17

I'm have to make an anti did not

54:19

know this and see actually has. A some

54:22

beautiful reggae songs from back in the day

54:24

that are really. Worth listening to. Hit

54:26

songs from the British group Loose Ends

54:28

and hits from Barbara Ackland and I

54:31

Want To Santa Barbara Anglin, the soul

54:33

singer who's most popular during the sixties

54:35

and seventies. I'm it. Seems like the

54:37

only thing on Spotify that you can

54:40

have from her hear from her is

54:42

a compilation of her twenty greatest hits,

54:44

but they are truly so great All

54:46

twenty and I specifically love her songs.

54:49

Am I the same? Girl which will be

54:51

very familiar. Once you put it on your your it you'll be

54:53

like oh yeah I know that. I

55:06

guess this is an endorsement for a

55:08

sore thumb for Silk the playlist radio

55:11

creating functions on. Music. Streaming platforms and

55:13

Barbara and all three rolled into

55:15

one. I love the to bring

55:17

this because I was the tone

55:19

of from last week. Quiet as

55:22

it's Cats. The. Spot of My

55:24

Algorithm has done really good. It's gotten

55:26

so good and I hate to admit

55:28

it because I believe in real people

55:30

picking out real music for other real

55:32

people. But damn an album works. Yeah,

55:34

so definitely worth whatever your cigarette, album

55:36

or song is are just. Something. That's

55:38

stuck in your head this week.

55:41

Just try the create create radio

55:43

functionality of the year and just.

55:45

See. What pops up I'm I'm sure you'll get

55:47

some great science that you've never heard before. Okay,

55:50

we'll from going in a. Totally.

55:53

Opposite direction. I. Am

55:56

a sucker for. kind

55:58

of bewitching half forgotten

56:00

home recordings by

56:03

doomed folkies. And

56:05

so, or they don't have to be

56:07

home recordings necessarily. So like Jackson C.

56:09

Frank or, you know, just the, or

56:12

the home recordings of Nick Drake, which

56:14

are freaking amazing. And

56:17

I'm shocked to discover one

56:19

that I was totally unfamiliar with, Sandy

56:21

Denny, who was the lead singer for

56:23

Fairport Convention and has one of the

56:25

most exquisitely

56:27

beautiful singing voices. I think I've

56:29

ever heard and wrote one of

56:32

the most enduring, like

56:34

an exquisitely beautiful classics in

56:36

the folk canon. Who knows where the time

56:38

goes. I mean, you know, just covered endlessly

56:42

and beautifully by various artists. There

56:45

are just a bunch of old home recordings of

56:47

her. I think she famously sort of performance

56:50

phobic or she

56:52

was doomed in ways that I'm afraid. I

56:54

don't know the exact specifics of, but she

56:56

was just a beautiful guitarist and singer

56:58

and songwriter and they're wonderful. I

57:01

mean, they're just lo-fi, gorgeous

57:04

and really haunting. So

57:27

they're the early home recordings by Sandy

57:29

Denny, the ENNY, we will

57:31

post a link to it. Thank

57:46

you so much for coming on the show. Oh

57:48

my God, this was delightful. I feel like

57:50

I in some moments had some like get

57:53

off my lawn energy, but y'all were so

57:55

nice in accommodating and excuse my rant. Thank

57:57

y'all. This was delightful. You're hardly

57:59

the first. to bring that energy to this

58:01

hour of programming, Sam. And

58:04

Nadira, as always, what an enormous

58:06

pleasure. Thank you. Thanks for having

58:08

me, as always. You will find

58:10

links to some of the things we talked

58:12

about today at our show page at slate.com/culturefest.

58:14

You can email us at culturefest at

58:17

slate.com. Our introductory theme music is by

58:19

the composer, Nicholas Patel. Our production assistant

58:21

is Kat Hong. Our producer is Cameron

58:23

Drews. For Sam Sanders and Nadira Goff,

58:25

I'm Stephen Metcalf. Thank you so much

58:27

for joining us. We'll see you soon.

58:59

I'm back at Slate. And we have

59:01

a ton of exclusive content and exciting

59:04

perks for Slate members. Subscribe now to

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