0:00

This podcast is brought to you by Progressive. Most

0:02

of you aren't just listening to a podcast right now. You

0:05

might be driving, cleaning, exercising at

0:07

the same time, but wait, what if you could be

0:09

saving money by switching to Progressive? Drivers

0:12

who save by switching save nearly $700 on average, and

0:15

auto customers qualify for an average of seven

0:17

discounts. Multitask right now.

0:20

Quote today at progressive.com.

0:22

Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates,

0:25

national average 12-month savings of $698 by

0:28

new customers surveyed who saved with Progressive

0:30

between June 2021 and May 2022. Potential

0:33

savings will vary, discounts not available

0:36

in all states and situations.

0:49

I'm Stephen Metcalf, and this is the Slate Culture

0:51

Gap Fest Ninja Turtle dot, dot,

0:53

dot, masterpiece edition.

0:56

It's Wednesday, August 16th, 2023. On

0:59

today's show, the new Teenage Mutant

1:02

Ninja Turtle movie, Mutant Mayhem

1:04

is a critical darling, another question mark,

1:07

question mark, question mark. Wait, what? So

1:10

we decided to go check it out. Critics do seem to really

1:12

like it. And then Serial Productions

1:14

returns with a new podcast. The

1:17

Retrievals is a case study of

1:19

how the medical and legal establishments discount

1:21

women's pain. And finally,

1:24

hip hop has turned 50. We

1:26

discuss a tour de force essay on its anniversary

1:28

with the author of the essay and a good friend

1:31

of the program, Wesley Morris of the

1:33

New York Times. Joining me today is Julia

1:35

Turner of the LA Times. Hey, Julia. Hello,

1:38

hello. And of course, Dana Stevens, the film

1:40

critic for Slate. Hey, Dana.

1:42

Hello, Stephen. All right, let's

1:44

dive in. Teenage Mutant Ninja

1:46

Turtles. They are turtles

1:48

who, thanks to some glowing ooze

1:50

from a science-y thing gone horribly

1:52

wrong, are now four anthropomorphic

1:55

superheroes. This is some crazy

1:57

IP that's been around for decades.

3:59

because Jeff Rowe, the director, was

4:02

one of the co-writers on Mitchells vs. the Machines

4:04

and is kind of a protege, I think, of Phil Lord and

4:06

Chris Miller. And there's that whole world

4:08

of, you know, self-aware but also

4:11

kid-friendly and smart, sweet

4:14

animated movies that take

4:16

a known property like Legos or the Ninja

4:18

Turtles and try to reinvent

4:20

them in a fresh way for kids and parents of this

4:23

generation. And I think this movie does that successfully.

4:26

The fact I have so little relationship to the property

4:28

and quite frankly that it's like such

4:31

a dude world make me

4:33

a little bit... I wouldn't quite

4:35

say I'm at Justin Chang's level of coming out pumping

4:38

my fist that everybody needs to go see this, which

4:40

I did feel, for example, about the Lego movie

4:42

and to a lesser degree about the Mitchells vs. the Machines.

4:45

But it's a very sweet and deering universe

4:47

they create. It looks really cool. We should

4:49

talk about the animation a bit and what it looks

4:51

like. But I really appreciate that this is not

4:54

the clean 3D Pixar

4:56

animated CGI look that we're

4:58

also used to now of sort of clean, big

5:01

eyed, round creatures walking

5:03

around clean universes. This

5:05

is a very dirty universe. The Turtles live in a sewer with

5:08

their adoptive father who is a rat and

5:10

everything is kind of grungy and hairy

5:12

and scratchy and sort of in

5:14

between flat and 3D animation. It looks

5:16

really cool and I appreciate that adventurousness.

5:20

Except for Jackie Chan who voices their

5:22

father, the rat named Splinter, there

5:25

wasn't really a character or a performance

5:27

that I specifically connected with a

5:29

lot

5:29

in this movie. Julia,

5:32

what about you? I thoroughly

5:34

enjoyed this and it has...

5:38

I think the clearest way I have to read this is

5:40

like excitement about

5:42

the way in which the Spider-Verse movies

5:46

are pushing animation forward so

5:48

that you just get

5:51

to look at something that looks like this. The

5:53

animation style is really cool. A

5:56

novel in this? I don't actually

5:58

think that it is...

6:00

used as precisely as

6:03

an emotional like conjuring rod as

6:09

it is in the Spider-Verse

6:11

movies. Like they, it's just a cool aesthetic

6:14

and the cool aesthetic is pretty consistent through the film.

6:17

I don't think it's quite as much of the like emotional

6:21

palette of the movie is based on the

6:23

aesthetic, but just to describe

6:26

it, it's animated,

6:29

but in this kind of messy 3D

6:31

way that sort of looks like

6:34

almost like a claymation style,

6:37

but then there are kind of extra

6:39

textual scribbles and rays

6:42

emanating from people. And then they also, you know,

6:44

the world as many films do talks

6:46

about the pain of being a mutant in

6:48

a human world that doesn't understand you

6:50

a timeless theme. And

6:54

the humans are all drawn with asymmetrical

6:56

faces. Anyway, the aesthetics

6:59

are just consistent, beautiful, interesting and

7:01

different from what Pixar

7:04

has been moving toward for 20 years.

7:08

But I sort of felt like, oh yeah, Hollywood's

7:11

gotten quite sophisticated at making solid

7:13

entertainment out of weird

7:16

IP. And Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles

7:18

has, I think, always had a sense of humor about

7:20

the weirdness of itself. Like the ridiculousity

7:23

of the premise has always been

7:25

part of the conceit. I don't have much

7:27

more experience with Ninja Turtles than you do, Dana,

7:30

but I did, I

7:30

think, watch the cartoons when I was a kid a little bit.

7:33

And like the whole phrase, their

7:36

rat dad splinter, like that's

7:38

just baked into like that sense

7:40

of self-aware, this

7:43

is goofy, is baked

7:45

into the

7:46

franchise, I think, in a way that the film

7:48

plays with nicely. So I really

7:50

enjoyed it. It made me, I don't

7:53

think it was a masterpiece, question

7:55

mark, but I do think it

7:57

was very good. Right.

8:00

I mean, we live in an A or

8:02

an F world, it seems like, these days,

8:04

a kind of boomer bust, quality

8:07

to so much stuff. And to

8:10

the point you forget what it feels like to

8:12

go to a movie, be thoroughly

8:14

entertained, laugh, you

8:17

know, okay, not cry, but there

8:19

were several moments when the entire audience that

8:21

I saw it with said, oh,

8:24

simultaneously, and I was

8:27

one of them. And you

8:29

know, you slap a B plus on it and move

8:31

on, right? Like it kind of scaled

8:34

itself to itself, right? Which

8:37

is exactly what

8:39

the challenge of being a teenage boy is

8:41

in some sense. Like the

8:44

kind of wild swings

8:46

between grandiosity and self

8:49

annihilation that is the inner life of a teenage

8:51

boy, which is what this movie's kind of about.

8:55

Then learning to kind of see and be yourself in

8:57

reasonable terms, assimilated into the world.

9:00

I thought that was really, really nicely done.

9:03

I mean, Pixar taught, I think everyone the lesson

9:06

that the way to make animation work

9:08

is to make it, you know, paradoxically human,

9:11

plausibly human. And

9:13

at that moment, if you hit that early

9:15

on and succeed, you can take people

9:18

all kinds of very fanciful places. And

9:21

in this one, I think they did a really good job

9:24

of creating this parent

9:26

figure, the surrogate parent figure, the mutant

9:28

rat, who's overwhelming

9:30

message to, because of his persecution,

9:32

his overwhelming message to his adoptive children

9:34

is the world's a fucked up place, don't

9:37

trifle with it. And it got

9:39

that attitude of the massively over-productive

9:41

parent, I think,

9:43

kind of right in the sense that very

9:45

often that parent's not wrong. They're both speaking

9:48

to something that's true about their own experience and about

9:50

the world, but it doesn't matter

9:52

that they're right to that extent, because

9:55

it's still, over-sheltering,

9:57

still

9:58

massively damages a kid.

10:00

through overcompensation.

10:02

And so Dana, I thought it kind of

10:05

wasn't a masterpiece, but I

10:07

thought that was somehow appropriate to the subject

10:10

matter and approach of the film. And

10:12

there was something true and

10:15

honorable about the effort

10:17

therein. Yeah, I think that says it pretty

10:19

well what you were saying. Like there's nothing wrong with

10:21

a B plus, especially for a movie for parents to

10:23

see with their kids. I kind of walked out of this saying, I

10:26

may not be pumping my fist, but I am happy

10:29

that Family Film is at a place where a movie

10:31

like this could be released and it could be just

10:33

a normal good movie that's

10:36

on screens for a few months for families

10:38

to see together. And I think that's due to both

10:40

the Phil Lord, Chris Miller kind of influence that I mentioned,

10:43

and the Spider-Verse animation, that this is

10:45

more interesting and tries to do more

10:47

different things and has a more unique voice

10:49

than you might have expected. And I'm glad that you

10:52

came back to the rat because I really was so,

10:54

so joyous to hear Jackie Chan do voice

10:56

acting. Yes,

10:58

yes. Boys, where were you being? I've been freaking

11:01

out. We're sorry.

11:02

It was this one, it was this cat. I'm

11:04

scared of cats. So yeah, we did have to answer.

11:06

Wait a second. You said

11:09

you would go shopping and come right back. Where

11:12

were you? Right, I mean, if there's one person

11:14

that you think of as acting with their body, you

11:17

don't think that Jackie Chan is somebody who

11:19

you want to just hear his voice and not see him

11:21

move. And of course, his character

11:23

does all sorts of martial arts things when the

11:25

climax comes around, but he's just working

11:27

with his voice and he gets so much into that character.

11:30

I absolutely love the dad rat voiced

11:32

by Jackie Chan. Yeah, I mean, that

11:34

was one of the things that made me appreciate

11:37

how this movie

11:39

represents the ways in which

11:41

we've like brought B plus them

11:43

forward as a culture. Like I

11:45

agree that it's a B plus and a B plus to

11:47

be celebrated, but like

11:50

the notion that in making that entertainment

11:53

these days, you are

11:56

going for an innovative animation style.

11:58

You've got kind of a, of

12:01

humane and non-objectionable moral lessons

12:03

that are pretty smart. You've got a fun array of

12:06

characters. You've got Paul Rudd

12:08

doing Andy Samberg. And

12:10

you've got Jackie Chan hired as a voice

12:12

actor

12:13

and doing an amazing job. And

12:15

you sort of at first you hear it and you get

12:18

the joke of like, oh, right, it's Splinter. They're

12:20

like martial arts guru dad. I get

12:22

it. And then you're like, what a moving performance.

12:25

I'm like so tearful when Splinter

12:28

has a big realization at the end. Like

12:30

it's just it's not

12:34

how Hollywood would have made this kind

12:36

of movie 10 years ago. And it's

12:38

so great. It's to be celebrated,

12:40

I think.

12:41

All right. Well, the movie is Teenage Mutant

12:43

Ninja Turtles Mutant Mayhem. It's

12:46

out in theaters now. I will proselytize

12:49

one more time for seeing things in a theater.

12:51

I think this one works really well with the

12:54

live audience as most movies do. Check

12:56

it out. Let us know what you thought. All right. Let's

12:58

let's move on.

13:00

At the end of your first year, Discover credit cards

13:02

automatically double all the cash back you've

13:04

earned. That's right. Everything you've

13:06

earned doubled. All the cash

13:09

back from eating at your favorite soup dumpling restaurant

13:11

doubled. All the cash back from that trip

13:13

where you sort of learned to snowboard also

13:15

doubled. And the best part, you don't have to

13:18

do anything ridiculous to get it. Nope.

13:20

Discover does it automatically. Seriously,

13:23

though. See terms and check it out for yourself

13:25

at Discover dot com slash match.

13:29

This episode is supported by About the Journey, an

13:31

original podcast from Marriott Bonvoy

13:33

Traveler. What does it mean to travel

13:35

better?

13:36

In season three of About the Journey, travel

13:39

journalist Onika Raymond takes us on a journey

13:41

to discover the lesser known sides of six iconic

13:43

cities around the globe. This season,

13:46

she's picked six under the radar neighborhoods

13:48

where she'll meet with in the know locals to experience

13:50

what makes their homes one of a kind. From

13:53

the unapologetically Dominican jewel of

13:55

Upper Manhattan to London's Nigerian

13:58

British community known as Little Lagos. Oneika

14:00

connects us with locals who can speak to the heart

14:02

of the dynamic neighborhoods we're traveling to. They'll

14:05

tell us where to go, what to do, and how

14:07

to see the world in more sustainable and meaningful

14:10

ways. About the Journey emphasizes

14:12

local experiences and provides an intimate

14:14

and exciting new perspective to popular destinations

14:17

like Washington, D.C. and Denver.

14:19

Search for About the Journey in your podcast

14:21

player. We'll also include a link in the show notes. Thanks

14:24

to About the Journey for their support.

14:28

Alright, before we go any further, this is typically

14:30

in our podcast where we discuss business. Dana,

14:33

what do we have? Steve, our only item of business

14:36

is to tell listeners about our Slate Plus segment this week.

14:39

This week we are going to talk about our first

14:41

personal experiences with hip-hop or rap music,

14:43

how it entered our lives. One of our segments

14:45

this week, one of our main segments, will be talking

14:48

with the New York Times critic and longtime

14:50

friend of our show, Wesley Morris, about

14:52

a beautiful piece that he just wrote about hip-hop's 50th

14:55

anniversary. And in honor of that

14:57

conversation and as an extension of it, we're just going to

14:59

go around and each of the three of us, Julia, Steve

15:01

and I, are going to talk about our earliest memories

15:03

of hearing, owning, listening

15:04

to rap music.

15:07

If you're a Slate Plus member, you will hear that at the

15:09

end of this show. And if you're not, of course, you can become

15:11

one by signing up at slate.com slash

15:13

culture plus. When you have a Slate Plus membership,

15:15

you get ad-free podcasts, you get bonus

15:18

segments like the one I just described, and

15:20

best of all, you get unlimited access to all

15:22

of the writing on Slate. You will never

15:24

hit a paywall when you're a Slate Plus member and

15:26

best of all, you will be supporting the magazine

15:28

and helping to keep things like this show and many

15:30

other great podcasts going. These memberships

15:33

make a big difference for Slate, so please sign

15:35

up today at slate.com slash culture

15:37

plus. Once again, that's slate.com

15:39

slash culture plus.

15:41

Okay, Steve, back to the show.

15:43

An inordinate number of women at the Yale Fertility

15:46

Clinic in New Haven doing IVF,

15:48

undergoing egg retrieval as part of that process,

15:51

reported feeling immense amounts of

15:53

pain. Nonetheless, they were routinely

15:56

ignored, pooh-poohed, condescended

15:58

to, only to find out later that

15:59

the fentanyl that they were supposedly being

16:02

given for pain management had been replaced

16:04

by a saline solution.

16:06

The drug itself was being stolen by

16:08

a staff nurse. The podcast,

16:10

The Retrievals, comes from serial productions

16:13

in the New York Times. It deals with the

16:15

women's pain from multiple perspectives.

16:17

The depth of it in

16:19

itself is physical pain, but also how

16:21

it related to their yearning to bear a child.

16:25

And as much as anything about how stupid they

16:27

were made to feel by a medical establishment

16:29

that shamed them when they felt it,

16:32

in the clip we're about to hear, you're going to hear multiple

16:34

patients talking about the procedures

16:37

themselves, how incredibly painful they

16:39

were, and their sense that the pain

16:41

medication wasn't working. Let's listen.

16:44

I remember yelling or kind

16:46

of making like,

16:48

ahhh, and really looking in

16:50

confusion at my nurse, the attending

16:53

nurse, and her saying, you know, I'm giving

16:55

you the most I can legally give you. She

16:57

said that that's the maximum that she's allowed to

16:59

give me, so she couldn't give me anything else.

17:02

I'm almost certain that

17:04

at one point they said that they had given me all of the

17:06

pain medication that they could give me. At

17:08

one point they did say that I had maxed out. I couldn't

17:10

have any more fentanyl or Versa. And

17:12

I was like, how is this

17:15

possible? How is that even, like, how am I feeling

17:17

this? How do people go through this? I can feel

17:19

that.

17:19

Like I could feel the, I

17:22

don't even know how to describe that. Like

17:24

you can just feel them inside of there. You know, as a woman,

17:27

we've all been through things, you

17:29

know, with those kind of doctors and stuff,

17:31

but like, this is just a pain. It's like hard to even

17:33

explain what it felt

17:35

like.

17:37

Julia, let me start with you. I mean, there are many, many

17:40

extraordinary things about this podcast,

17:43

not the least of which is how

17:47

self-aware, intelligent, articulate,

17:51

what extraordinary witnesses these women are

17:53

themselves.

17:54

What'd you make of this?

17:56

This is such a great show. It

17:59

feels like it's been a miracle. minute since a

18:01

narrative podcast story

18:03

has grabbed people by the lapels and

18:06

caused everyone to listen to something similar

18:08

at once and I'm not sure if

18:11

this show which is

18:13

intimate in its subject and

18:15

its approach is is

18:18

necessarily achieving

18:20

the kind of potboiler heights of serial

18:22

podcast blockbusterdom

18:24

but it shows

18:28

what the medium can

18:30

do in terms

18:32

of using voice

18:35

to make people's experience real and

18:38

the choices made by

18:41

Susan Burton the host and by the producers in

18:45

what to listen to what to pay attention

18:47

to and how to elucidate

18:49

that story are so smart

18:52

and so valuable and

18:55

you know still

18:57

women's experience of our

18:59

medical system

19:01

is under explored

19:04

understudied undervalued and

19:07

in many

19:08

ways they are

19:10

under cared for and we

19:13

are under cared for and receive insufficient

19:15

care and to listen to this story

19:19

about women's reproductive experiences also

19:21

in this moment where

19:24

Roe has been overturned as part

19:26

of what makes it powerful I don't think abortion

19:29

rights are mentioned in

19:31

the show at all actually but

19:34

the context of

19:37

the respect that we do and don't

19:39

give women and their

19:42

medical and reproductive experiences to me

19:45

deepens the the resonance of the show

19:47

and the power of it and the impact of it

19:49

yeah you know Julia when I heard people talking about this

19:52

podcast and and you know how it was grabbing

19:54

them in a way that a narrative podcast hadn't in a long

19:56

time I admit that knowing this

19:58

story having heard this story

19:59

story, you know, read the story separately

20:02

about the nurse replacing the

20:05

fentanyl with saline. And, you know, reading about

20:07

this as a criminal story, basically, I had

20:09

sort of thought, well,

20:10

is there really a whole season's worth of podcasting

20:13

in that? Right. And I stand

20:15

completely corrected having listened to now

20:18

three quarters of this season and wishing that there

20:20

was more than just one more episode left

20:22

to listen to. There's so

20:24

much here. There's the legal story, you know, it is

20:27

in fact a trial narrative about this

20:29

specific woman, the nurse who stole

20:31

the fentanyl, you know, why she

20:33

did so, her own history of addiction and family

20:36

problems in tandem

20:38

with the story that we've been talking

20:40

about

20:40

up to now, which is, you know, the story of

20:43

women's pain being systematically ignored

20:45

by this clinic, even as hundreds

20:48

of women had this happen to them, right? So

20:50

you're going to have to assume that there was this sudden

20:53

tidal wave of complaints about pain

20:55

during surgery, something that presumably

20:57

had not been happening up until then. And

21:00

yet there was still enough pre-existing bias

21:02

in that system that all of that tidal

21:04

wave of complaints could be ignored. So

21:07

that's all very startling. And

21:10

then the sort of moral

21:12

gradations of the story, which is something

21:14

that I think podcasts are really, really well suited

21:17

to deal with in a way that, you know, maybe journalistic

21:19

reporting isn't where you hear

21:22

one person's perspective and sort of think, oh, I've understood

21:24

it from that point of view. But then boom,

21:26

it turns out that, you know, one of the women who

21:28

underwent this unmedicated procedure is

21:31

an addiction counselor in her life. So she

21:33

has maybe a different attitude and maybe

21:35

less of a sense of a desire for punishment

21:39

than some of the other women who haven't worked

21:41

inside that system of addiction. Another

21:43

woman works in a mental hospital and

21:46

at first feels more sympathy toward the

21:48

nurse than some of the other victims,

21:50

but changes her mind when she learns some,

21:53

I won't give it all away because this all comes in spoiler

21:56

form in the podcast. But you know,

21:58

she comes across some information about the

22:00

nurse's real life that makes her less sympathetic.

22:03

So there's this kind of constant recalibration

22:05

of how to feel about both

22:07

sides of this story that make

22:09

it much, much more complex than I would have thought going

22:12

in.

22:12

Yeah, here, here, you highlighted

22:14

a bunch of things that really struck me about it.

22:16

I mean, the power of the witness of these particular

22:19

women given their life experiences

22:21

and their careers. I mean, one is a public

22:24

defender, one is several

22:26

are medicine or science adjacent. What

22:30

I find amazing about this is that to

22:33

be a philosophy nerd for a second, pain

22:36

is what philosophers call incorrigible, right?

22:38

You don't doubt that you're feeling pain when you feel

22:40

pain. When Wittgenstein

22:43

says, here's how you know you believe

22:45

other people have minds, he

22:48

says, that's a non-problem. That's the

22:50

kind of idiotic thing only a philosopher

22:52

would ever gin up. Try denying a person

22:54

who is in pain is in pain when they're

22:57

clearly in agony. You

22:59

believe that a person is having that experience. So it's like

23:01

the infallible testimonial of

23:04

experience, another person's experience

23:06

is rooted in pain.

23:08

And these women felt

23:10

extreme pain, their descriptions

23:12

of what they were feeling. It sounds as though without

23:14

anesthesia, someone is removing an internal

23:17

organ, right? And they weren't

23:19

believed. And it's not just that they weren't

23:21

believed, they internalized that disbelief.

23:24

And they either kind

23:26

of didn't believe what they were feeling was unusual,

23:30

or they felt like they deserved it as part

23:32

of the kind of punishment for the sin of

23:35

being unable to bear children.

23:38

And Dana, I think you're absolutely right.

23:40

It's so powerful. It's almost atoning

23:42

for the first season of Serial, which was

23:45

utterly brilliant, but it got taken a task

23:47

for saying, oh, here's this exceptional

23:49

miscarriage of justice, to which people said, no, this is all

23:51

too typical. There's nothing exceptional about it at all.

23:54

Wake the fuck up. This happens all the time.

23:56

Someone gets railroaded for something they didn't do

23:58

and goes to jail for life. And since

24:01

then, the show has been really

24:04

scrupulous about taking on systemic

24:06

injustices and treating them from multiple

24:09

perspectives. The trial portion of

24:11

this show, Julia, is very

24:13

powerful in that

24:15

it's so not vengeful. It's

24:18

trying to understand what would

24:21

constitute justice in this super

24:23

complex situation. It's

24:26

agnostic, but not at all cold. I mean,

24:28

its powers of empathy are extraordinary. It's just that

24:30

they extend in all directions. And at

24:32

a certain moment, a judge has to render

24:35

a verdict. It has no choice. And

24:37

I just thought that that was

24:40

beautifully done in addition to every

24:42

other piece of this podcast.

24:44

Yeah,

24:45

I mean, I had a similar response of like, wow, I

24:47

don't know that I would have,

24:50

these women describe their

24:52

experiences after the

24:54

theft and substitutions

24:57

are discovered of feeling like

24:59

both the Yale Clinic and

25:01

others are raising questions about

25:04

whether they've

25:06

actually been harmed. Like is the experience

25:08

of undergoing excruciating pain for

25:10

a while harm? What kind of

25:12

harm is that? And I really

25:15

appreciated the show for taking that

25:18

pain seriously. I

25:21

mean, the mysteries of women's gynecological

25:23

pain, even as a woman who has experienced

25:25

some gynecological pain, it's like

25:28

childbirth, the notion

25:30

that pain and motherhood are joined inextricably

25:33

is it's

25:36

in our culture, it's in our nature, it's

25:41

in some ways imposed by the patriarchy and in some

25:43

way imposed by biology, right? And

25:45

so the show is just so smart

25:49

about this and so smart and what it puts in

25:51

and what it leaves out. It's just masterful. I

25:54

mean, it's really, of all

25:56

the things we've consumed in a while, this is

25:58

one I would recommend very, very.

25:59

highly in the quietness

26:03

and certainty of its attention to

26:06

female experience and also in the understatedness

26:12

but laceratingness of its indictment.

26:14

I mean, I do think if you listened to the whole thing, which I have,

26:16

I very much doubt that

26:18

these are the final episodes of this show because

26:21

the portrait it describes of

26:23

Yale and Yale's desire

26:24

for this to not be a story and

26:29

refusal to reckon with

26:32

what actually happened and for how long

26:34

and what its culpability was,

26:38

the show never hits it with

26:40

a gong, but it's pretty fucking

26:42

devastating and outrageous.

26:45

And I suspect we

26:48

may hear more. Yeah, Julia, I hope

26:50

that's the case because like I say, I just keep being

26:53

amazed at how much bigger this story keeps

26:55

getting as a philosophical,

26:57

moral, legal puzzle

27:00

than I thought it could have been from the initial

27:03

description of the case, as horrifying

27:06

as the case itself is. So yeah,

27:08

I really hope that Susan Burton weighs in

27:10

as Yale continues to respond to

27:13

this story.

27:13

All right, the podcast is called

27:15

The Retrievals. We loved it,

27:17

if that's the right word, it's very powerful. You should check

27:20

it out and let us know what you thought. All right, let's move on.

27:23

This episode is brought to you by Quince.

27:25

Summer is here and your wardrobe needs an upgrade,

27:28

right? Instead of a flimsy fast

27:30

fashion haul, spend your money wisely on

27:32

high quality essentials that will last beyond

27:34

the season.

27:35

Quince is the spot for quiet luxury without

27:38

paying luxury prices. They offer a

27:40

range of must have items like 100% European linen under $50, luxurious

27:45

mulberry silk skirts, Italian leather

27:47

bags, and 14 karat gold jewelry

27:49

from $30.

27:51

Quince has kindly offered me to sample a product

27:53

that I'm still waiting for it. It hasn't arrived yet, but I chose

27:55

a silk shirt in an autumnal color and

27:57

I'm really looking forward to it arriving just

27:59

in time. time to put together some autumnal

28:01

outfits. All of Quince's prices are

28:04

50-80% less than similar brands, and since

28:07

they create timeless, classic styles that won't

28:09

go out of fashion, you'll have them in your closet

28:11

forever. Upgrade your closet this

28:13

summer with Quince.

28:15

Right now, go to Quince.com slash

28:17

Culture to get free shipping and 365 day returns on your

28:20

next order. That's Q-U-I-N-C-E

28:23

dot com slash Culture for free shipping

28:25

and 365 day returns. Quince

28:28

dot com slash Culture.

28:31

This episode is supported by About the Journey,

28:33

an original podcast from Mariette Bonvoy

28:35

Traveler.

28:36

What does it mean to travel better?

28:39

In season three of About the Journey, travel

28:41

journalist Onika Raymond takes us on a journey

28:43

to discover the lesser-known sides of six iconic

28:46

cities around the globe. This season,

28:48

she's picked six under-the-radar neighborhoods,

28:50

where she'll meet with in-the-know locals to

28:52

experience what makes their homes one-of-a-kind.

28:55

From a Dominican jewel of upper Manhattan to

28:58

London's Nigerian-British community known as

29:00

Little Lagos, Onika connects us with

29:02

locals who can speak to the heart of the dynamic neighborhoods

29:04

we're traveling to. They'll tell us where

29:07

to go, what to do, and how to see the world

29:09

in more sustainable and meaningful ways. About

29:12

the Journey emphasizes local experiences and

29:14

provides an intimate and exciting new perspective

29:16

to popular destinations like Washington,

29:18

D.C. and Denver. Search for

29:20

About the Journey in your podcast player.

29:23

We'll also include a link in our show notes. Thanks

29:25

to About the Journey for their support.

29:30

We've gathered here today to raise a glass to

29:32

hip-hop its 50 babies. So

29:34

writes Wesley Morrison in the New York Times.

29:37

He goes on to say, "...half a century of affrontery,

29:40

dexterity, elasticity, rambunctiousness,

29:42

ridiculousness, bleakness, spunk, swagger,

29:45

juice, jiggle, and wit, of defiant

29:47

arrogance, devastating humor, consumptive lust,

29:49

and violent distress, of innovation,

29:52

danger, doubt, and drip.

29:54

We're joined by Wesley. He is the critic

29:57

at large of the New York Times."

29:59

Wesley Morris, welcome back. to the show. It's

30:01

been way too long. I know.

30:03

But you know, loving you from afar.

30:06

Back atcha. Great

30:08

to have you back. And congratulations

30:11

on how hip-hop conquered the world.

30:13

It is a

30:14

Wesley Morris tour de force. It's really,

30:16

it is a tremendous piece and it's great to

30:18

have you on to talk about it. This

30:21

probably doesn't need to be gone over

30:23

for the millionth time, but very quickly, like

30:25

you acknowledge in the piece quite openly your

30:27

ambivalence about celebrating this anniversary

30:30

in no small part because it's somewhat arbitrary.

30:33

Just tell us briefly what it's the anniversary

30:35

of and then go on and maybe talk

30:37

about how you conquered or how hip-hop and

30:40

the celebration of the anniversary conquered your ambivalence.

30:43

Basically, the event we

30:45

are celebrating is the evening

30:48

that DJ Kool Herc took

30:51

two versions of

30:53

a record and basically created

30:55

a seamless beat for

30:58

all the people who are dancing at his parties to

31:01

be able like the B-boys and B-girls basically

31:03

loosely competitive dancers who come to these

31:05

parties. That happened in 1973

31:08

in the summer of 1973 in August of 1973, which is why if you, you listeners

31:10

are suddenly like,

31:16

why is everybody suddenly aware of the fact

31:18

that hip-hop is 50 50 right now? It's because

31:22

this month is the actual month

31:25

in which that is said to have happened. I

31:27

mean, the event definitely happened. I guess

31:30

the question is,

31:31

what is hip-hop

31:34

and does the creation

31:36

of that break beat? What I say in the piece is basically

31:38

this big bang moment.

31:41

Why is it that?

31:43

Can you talk a little bit about that journey?

31:45

I, as someone who

31:48

as an editor has an aversion

31:50

to anniversaries, I loved

31:53

that your lead

31:55

reckoned with the arbitrariness of the anniversary

31:57

and then explains how you kind

31:59

of fell for the that it's

32:01

worth seizing whatever moment we want to

32:03

take a look at what hip-hop has

32:05

been and is. Yeah

32:08

I hadn't really thought about it at all honestly the

32:10

anniversary part and then the

32:12

Grammys happened and Questlove assembled

32:15

you

32:16

know three dozen almost people

32:19

or acts to be part of it and

32:22

there was something about

32:25

the gathering of all these people

32:28

and the idea that these

32:30

people were willing to come to this

32:32

show perform under

32:35

the rubric of hip-hop

32:37

being 50 years old and it's mattering

32:41

in the way that it so evidently does it

32:43

really got to me. 50

32:45

years ago a street princess was born

32:47

to be an icon. The art form took

32:49

the entire world by storm. How she doing

32:52

her influence, constantly raising the

32:54

stakes each generation.

32:56

Yeah Wesley because of you I watched that entire

32:58

Grammys performance on YouTube that whole

33:00

extended montage and given

33:03

especially the usual level of Grammy musical

33:05

performances right I mean there are a few legendary

33:07

ones but it's really a big opportunity

33:09

for cringe right especially a montage

33:12

where everybody just gets to do a brief bit of their

33:14

song like if you if you would say to me right

33:16

history of rap told through a medley

33:19

where everybody gets less than a minute to sing

33:21

on the Grammys I would think that just sounds

33:24

unbearably reductionist and you know it's

33:26

not going to give you any real sense of the sweep of history

33:28

and it's going to be sort of an insult to each of those performers

33:31

and none of those things were true at all because everybody

33:33

up there just completely owned their moment

33:36

and I'm thinking in particular of seeing Raquem

33:38

come out and just completely

33:40

own.

33:51

But as you mentioned we're inundated

33:53

right now with these histories of rap

33:55

and you know these kind of chronologies

33:57

of hip-hop flooding the internet and something

33:59

Something that really set yours apart, I think, was

34:02

its distinctive resistance,

34:04

which Julia talked to in relation to just the

34:06

resistance to the anniversary as a peg for

34:08

a story. But in addition to that, in your

34:11

lead, you talk about resisting the

34:13

idea of marking this anniversary in

34:15

this way as if it's a break, a big bang,

34:18

because you see it as part of a continuum. You

34:20

see hip hop and rap as being part of this continuum of American

34:23

black music from ragtime to

34:25

soul to funk to rock and roll. And

34:28

that you also changed your thinking about that.

34:30

And I wondered if you could just talk about that, you know, sort

34:32

of Schrödinger's way of looking at rap

34:34

as part of a continuum, which it is, but also

34:37

as something new and what it did

34:39

bring that was new.

34:40

I think what occurred to me when I was writing this

34:42

was just, and I was thinking about like exactly

34:45

how to feel about

34:47

this art form, which is vast,

34:50

right? I mean, the thing that you really,

34:53

it's impossible

34:53

to take it

34:55

all in now, right? It's as big as jazz.

34:57

You could never get to the bottom of it. And

35:01

I mean, it really is useful to go back

35:03

to the beginning in a lot of ways and ask how we

35:06

get from, you know, Grandmaster

35:08

Flash and that crew.

35:14

To Travis Scott or Lil

35:16

Baby.

35:26

What is this art and like, what does it mean

35:28

that we've been on it and

35:31

what are all the different modes

35:33

of expression in this one art form

35:36

that we have and

35:38

any sort of sentient, musically

35:43

aware person, culturally aware person

35:45

can see that, you know, there's

35:47

obviously some relationship between the spiritual

35:50

and hip hop, between rock and

35:52

roll and hip hop. I mean, the foundations

35:55

of rap

35:56

bring with it call

35:59

and response. They bring with

36:01

it

36:01

this interest in guitar

36:04

elements and drum elements and this

36:07

very sort of straightforward direct

36:10

vocal cadence that harkens back

36:12

to the 1940s and 50s, you know, jump

36:16

blues and shout blues musicians. I mean, all

36:19

of these things are in the music and

36:22

yet

36:23

the thing like this big bang

36:26

moment happens in the housing projects

36:28

or happens around public housing. A

36:31

lot of the practitioners of this art

36:33

form,

36:34

whether we're talking about people

36:37

who we would now call stylists, rappers,

36:41

dancers, DJs,

36:43

they lived in public housing.

36:45

They didn't have any money. And

36:48

part of the public housing they lived

36:50

in in New York City during

36:52

one of the darkest moments for New York in

36:55

terms of, you know,

36:57

financial resources, infrastructure.

37:00

They were living apart from everybody

37:03

else. This was housing that was essentially

37:06

by nature anti integrationist.

37:09

It was secretary and

37:12

that music comes out of this

37:16

direness, not just for New York City

37:19

at the time, but for black Americans

37:21

in general and this generation of

37:23

kids. I mean, they would

37:25

have been and this is me sort of like

37:28

somewhat scholastically extemporizing, but

37:31

you know, they would have been different from

37:33

the southern musicians who invented

37:36

all the other musics, right? This

37:38

is an entirely northern phenomenon

37:41

and it comes out of

37:43

disillusionment. This is the

37:45

first American

37:46

art form, first

37:48

black American art form, but American

37:51

art form, I would say that comes out of a hopelessness,

37:55

right? The music isn't hopeless. The music

37:57

is strangely practical

37:59

about. the circumstances, but the circumstances

38:02

that produce this universe,

38:04

this galaxy of sound, comes

38:06

out of

38:08

despairing circumstances.

38:12

So that, sorry to answer your question, Dana,

38:14

specifically, that makes it different

38:17

from these other art forms. And so yes, want to continue

38:19

them, but no, also it's its own

38:22

thing in terms of the way this

38:24

country is thought about young black people

38:27

and the promises that it's made to them

38:29

and their ancestors. Wesley,

38:32

I wonder if you could speak to the fact that

38:34

I think the first descriptor you apply to

38:36

hip hop in your piece is a frontry.

38:39

Yeah. And you talk a little bit about

38:42

the kind of attitudinal swagger of

38:44

hip hop, and particularly as compared to Motown.

38:47

And I'd be curious if you could talk a little bit about

38:49

that, about kind of

38:51

out of that environment you've just described

38:54

of sort of hopelessness,

38:55

but also arguably

38:57

of the after

39:00

of civil rights movement, like, okay, here we are after

39:02

and still this is

39:04

how the world is. Can

39:06

you talk a little bit about that,

39:09

that affrontery, your choice of that

39:11

word and that riff that you go on in your

39:14

piece?

39:15

I mean, another thing, I didn't really

39:17

get into this in the piece, but it's implied, I

39:19

think, but this is the age of the super predator,

39:21

right? This is the age of this sort of political,

39:25

ideological, socio,

39:27

I mean, I guess it's like pseudo

39:30

sociology that

39:32

basically pathologizes

39:35

and turns into

39:38

a societal threat, young

39:40

black men in particular. And

39:43

so the idea that like a huge part

39:45

of this music is young black

39:47

people talking about how great they are, how

39:50

nobody's better than them, how a

39:53

huge part of the art form involves

39:55

these people battling each other for

39:58

lyrical and

39:59

stylistic supremacy on

40:02

a microphone is just,

40:05

and to dress like you own the world

40:08

when you don't have

40:10

two nickels to rub together, it just

40:13

is so

40:15

powerful to be. It's just

40:17

you, there's a world in which you

40:20

make music that meets

40:22

the harshness of your circumstances

40:24

and that's certainly in hip-hop obviously. But

40:28

the way in which glamour and

40:31

self-confidence and

40:35

swagger and self-belief

40:37

are a part of the music too is

40:39

just, it's a radical act.

40:43

It's a radical anti,

40:47

it's not anti, it's very social,

40:49

but it's sort of anti-stereotypical,

40:54

anti-bureaucratic,

40:57

anti-governmental, anti-

40:59

I'm trying to arrive at the exact right thing

41:02

this is in opposition

41:03

to, but basically the way this country

41:05

has for so long thought, or had for

41:08

so long and still does more or less. Think

41:11

of young black people as being a scourge

41:14

on this country and here they were

41:17

to say, I know

41:19

what you're talking about, but I'm not trying to go there. I'm

41:21

the best and nobody's better than I

41:23

am and I dare you to present somebody

41:26

who can do a better job at this

41:28

thing than I can.

41:30

And that just, that

41:32

feels incredibly radical to me and it felt

41:34

radical. I remember feeling exhilarated

41:37

as a kid discovering somebody

41:40

like LL Cool J or Rakim

41:42

who just in totally

41:44

different styles told

41:47

stories about what bad MFs

41:49

they were and you could hear that

41:52

in the in the timbre of their voices and

41:54

in the you know the production

41:56

of their sounds.

42:00

This return or adversary

42:02

should be concerned that L.D.J.

42:05

is back again. Allow me to introduce

42:07

you to my friend, cut-create.

42:10

Wesley, towards the end of the piece, you say nobody

42:12

thought it would last this long. I

42:15

remember even thinking at the time when I was in like eighth

42:17

grade and I think the Who had a song like

42:19

Long Live Rock or Rock and Roll Will Never Die.

42:22

That's the moment you know it's about to die. And

42:25

you know, it's like this sort of generative and

42:27

self-generative powers of any art

42:30

form, popular art forms especially,

42:32

I think.

42:33

Their health tends to be a

42:36

rude health and it's intact when

42:38

a certain kind

42:40

of nostalgic self-regard or

42:44

institutional co-facetedness

42:47

hasn't kicked in yet. So here

42:49

we are, we're at 50. I mean, the

42:52

celebration, as you say, has been exhilarating. Your

42:54

piece is a fucking tortoise for us.

42:57

Is there enough novelty and almost

43:00

sort of like insecurity

43:02

about its status to keep

43:04

it energized going forward? That's

43:07

a great question. I don't

43:09

detect, well, there might

43:11

be insecurity, but it's not about the art form,

43:14

right? I think that one of the things

43:16

that hip-hop

43:17

is going through right now

43:19

is, you know, if

43:21

you think about all the other things that have happened

43:25

these 50 years involving, you know,

43:28

things you never

43:30

thought would be possible, black president, the

43:32

legalization of weed, the

43:35

idea that this art form like

43:38

manages to encapsulate that, I

43:42

think that there is like a lot of hope

43:46

in these 50 years

43:48

and beyond them, but I think this particular moment

43:50

is really interesting. And one of the pieces

43:52

in the issue that the magazine put out

43:55

by Nihila Orr is looking

43:58

at a tiny bit of a thing.

43:59

that I looked at in my piece, but she does

44:02

this amazing, you know, gender

44:04

split where the boys are depressed

44:06

and the girls are like loving the fuck out

44:08

of life. And the

44:11

bounce exuberance, nasty,

44:14

dirty, filthy sexuality

44:16

of it, the fun, all of that

44:18

old energy has

44:20

been genderized so that the

44:22

women are carrying the baton of the old

44:24

school forward. And the boys

44:27

are all depressed. And

44:30

I think that heaviness

44:32

is like the circle coming, not

44:36

to close, but

44:39

there's something on this arc that

44:41

is reaching back into the past in a non-nostalgic

44:44

kind of psychological, I

44:48

don't wanna say trauma, because that's a whole thing

44:51

and we could talk about that, but that

44:53

is in the music now. I

44:56

mean, it's trap music, it's drill,

44:57

the genre names themselves,

45:01

they don't make me wanna go out and do anything

45:03

fun. Yeah,

45:06

I can't wait to join you in the trap, exactly.

45:08

Right, I mean, it's just, it's really deep,

45:11

it's really deep, but I think that, I

45:13

don't know where the music goes from here, but

45:15

I think that it is on, I mean, hip hop

45:18

is on its own continuum. And

45:20

it's interesting to see

45:23

that the sort of gender politics

45:25

have flipped now where the women who

45:27

previously were ignored, exploited,

45:31

misogynized have kind of

45:33

taken the reins and are guiding

45:35

this music to its future. All

45:38

right, Wesley,

45:39

take everything you've just said and

45:41

everything you've written and felt

45:44

and thought about hip hop and force

45:46

it through the keyhole of the dumbest question,

45:49

which is dumbest ask, give

45:52

us a cut to go out on.

45:54

Well, I mentioned two of my favorite karaoke

45:57

songs to do in like period.

46:00

They're two of them are bi-rappers.

46:03

One is Paid in Full by Eric B. and Rakim, and

46:05

the other is Mama Said Knock You Out by Ella Kool J. Let's

46:08

do Paid in Full by Eric

46:10

B. and Rakim.

46:11

Perfect choice.

46:21

Wesley Morris, the critic at large

46:24

for the New York Times. Wesley, an

46:26

immense pleasure always. Please

46:28

do it again before too long. Yes, please.

46:53

On August 23rd, the summer

46:55

event Ahsoka arrives on Disney+.

46:58

Witness the thrilling adventure of former Jedi

47:00

Knight Ahsoka Tano as she uncovers

47:02

a disturbing new threat to the galaxy far,

47:04

far away. Don't miss the two-episode

47:07

premiere event of the highly anticipated Star

47:09

Wars series, Ahsoka, streaming

47:12

August 23rd, only on Disney+.

47:16

All right, now is the moment on our podcast we endorse.

47:18

Dana, what do you have this week? Steve,

47:21

my endorsement comes out of a discussion we had a few

47:23

weeks ago on the show now. I have not stopped

47:25

listening to Sinead O'Connor and going on deep

47:27

dives of Sinead O'Connor since we talked

47:30

about her the week after she

47:32

died a few weeks ago. And

47:34

I just keep finding deeper and deeper cuts that

47:36

are really fascinating for different

47:38

reasons and different periods of her career. She

47:40

just was such an extraordinary both

47:43

singer and public figure. And I wound up making

47:45

a playlist for my daughter of some songs

47:47

that I thought she should hear, specifically not

47:50

a deep cuts playlist, but a

47:52

almost a greatest hits one to get a young person

47:54

who was totally unfamiliar with her work into

47:57

her enough that hopefully my daughter who sings

47:59

and writes song sometimes herself will

48:02

start considering Sinead one of her influences.

48:04

So far it's working. She has actually really liked what I've

48:07

exposed her to. But in the process I came

48:09

across this concert doc that I had never seen

48:11

and that I wish I had seen in advance of

48:14

our conversation a few weeks ago

48:16

because it's great and it gives a good sense

48:18

of who she was as a life performer

48:21

at a very specific moment, 1990, which

48:23

was the year she broke huge as a pop

48:25

star or the year that nothing compares to

48:27

you broke at number one on the charts.

48:30

It's called the year of the horse and it's a concert

48:33

that was filmed in Brussels that's basically

48:35

her singing that album, the album from 1990.

48:38

I do not want what I haven't got along with

48:40

a few things from her first album and

48:42

a couple of, you know, just protest songs

48:44

and traditional Irish songs and the kind

48:46

of thing that she often returned to later in her career.

48:49

It's called the year of the horse. And yeah,

48:51

it doesn't show all aspects of her as a performer

48:53

because it's not a great concert

48:55

documentary. It's really hard to make a great concert

48:58

documentary. And this one sometimes cuts

49:00

away when you don't want it to cut away. It doesn't

49:02

really show the audience enough. It doesn't

49:04

do things that to me make a concert documentary

49:06

really stand out and not just feel like a music

49:08

video. So at times it's a little

49:11

bit of a deadening of what was clearly

49:13

not at all a dead performance. And you know, she

49:15

does have the audience in the palm of her hand, but

49:17

the movie doesn't always show that in the

49:19

best way. At any rate, it's a good starting

49:22

place to see what Sinead was like as

49:24

a performer, you know, at this, this moment

49:26

of her height of pop stardom, the year

49:28

of the horse, you can watch the entire thing on YouTube

49:30

and it's just over an hour long.

49:32

Amazing. Um, Julia, what do

49:34

you have? Uh, this

49:36

is just a troll for you, Steve, but

49:39

I would like to endorse fans of

49:41

Taylor Swift. So I, um,

49:44

had the great fortune to have a

49:46

friend have a ticket to Taylor

49:48

Swift's final sofai show last

49:50

week here in LA, which was her final show

49:53

of the first leg of her us tour. She has since

49:55

announced new us and North American tour

49:57

dates for late 2024. So there's still

49:59

time, Steve, for you to learn all

50:02

the lyrics and get on over there. Um,

50:04

but it was this just like incredible

50:08

vibe in the stadium. This

50:11

just

50:12

collection of women and some

50:15

men of all ages

50:17

and body types, but not as wide

50:19

a range of susceptibility to wearing fringe

50:22

or sequence, which were more

50:24

universal than anything else. Um,

50:28

I don't know, man, it was a good vibe

50:30

in that stadium and the, the single

50:32

best moment, uh, people

50:34

were very kind. The friendship bracelet

50:37

trading was real. The people were giving

50:39

friendship bracelets to the hot dog vendors.

50:42

It was, it was a really

50:44

kind and pleasant vibe

50:47

and a fun vibe and fun to see

50:49

how her, um, uh,

50:51

her, her just skills as

50:53

a live performer. Um, but

50:55

the single best moment of the night was walking out

50:58

in a crowd of people and, uh, most

51:01

people were still getting to their cars or their rides.

51:03

Um, and my friend and I had stopped and we're,

51:06

we're, uh, these, these like 11 year

51:08

old girls had asked us if we would trade a final friendship

51:10

bracelet with them. So we were doing that and their mom

51:13

or aunt or somebody was taking pictures. And

51:15

then a car drove by also

51:17

from a concert goer,

51:19

maybe who had, um, uh, like

51:23

got into their car sooner than the rest of us and

51:25

they rolled down their windows and they yelled to all the women

51:27

on the street, hi Barbie. And then

51:29

all the women on the street yelled back, hi Barbie.

51:31

Hi Barbie. Hi Barbie. Hi Barbie.

51:34

And it was just so great. It

51:37

was just like this extreme, um,

51:40

extremely female

51:42

environment. That was really lovely.

51:45

So, uh, I endorse

51:47

the fans of Taylor Swift and, uh, getting

51:50

Steve to the 2024 leg of the US show.

51:53

Let's make it happen. I love the Taylor

51:55

Barbie crossover that makes complete

51:58

sense.

51:59

It's just very summer of 2023 that

52:02

Eras Tour and Barbie have this

52:04

moment of convergence. I mean,

52:06

there was a great Michelle Goldberg essay

52:08

about what the hell is going on with the Eras

52:10

Tour. Like, I don't know why it felt

52:13

like Woodstock or something. And

52:16

she did release four albums that she didn't

52:19

tour for, which is why she made the candy choice to

52:21

frame this whole thing as a retrospective.

52:24

But sorry, Stephen,

52:26

I mean to cut you off. Well,

52:29

you know, Julia, you in the universe seem

52:31

to live for trolling me because the rumor

52:33

broke a couple of days ago that Taylor Swift is

52:35

buying a

52:36

house in my old town

52:39

upstate.

52:41

But I suspect

52:43

that that's an idle rumor, but I'm actually

52:45

going up there later today to sleuth

52:48

it out. So I'll report back.

52:51

That's the intent of your trip. Yeah.

52:55

So get my bail money ready. But

52:58

anyway, so I,

53:01

this is unintentional, but I've come up with like the

53:04

most like raucous like,

53:06

you know, R-O-C-K-I-S-T, like

53:08

rock snob endorsement. I didn't really

53:10

mean it, but it was occasioned by

53:15

my daughter turning to me

53:17

and saying, you know, that

53:19

song Jersey Girl, that's

53:21

real. That gives, I think she said or

53:24

whatever it was, whatever the slang

53:27

phrase she used

53:28

was. And

53:52

like

53:53

my whole body filled with endorphins.

53:55

Like I just finished the New York marathon

53:58

in under four hours or something. It was just.

53:59

just a moment of complete dad, harmonic

54:06

rapture or something. Because

54:09

Tom Waits is one of the toughest cells

54:11

you can make to a teenage

54:14

girl in 2023. And

54:18

I've tried and I finally had my in

54:20

because Phoebe Bridgers clearly

54:22

venerates Tom Waits, having covered him now, I think

54:24

at least twice on disc

54:27

and multiple times, multiple songs,

54:29

multiple times live. But I

54:32

said, okay, listen, here's what you gave me the

54:34

opening. I'm so sorry, I'm gonna like crawl through

54:37

it. I'm gonna make you a playlist

54:39

of like, you know, a

54:41

decorous, you know, 12 Tom Waits

54:44

songs. But

54:46

it gave me an excuse to go back and

54:48

just

54:49

Tom Waits, I understand people

54:52

like Tom Waits or they respect Tom

54:54

Waits or they, you know, or

54:56

they have a kind of skin reaction to his

54:59

voice and his persona, which is incredibly

55:02

powerfully delivered. Right, it's, you do

55:04

tend to go either with it or against it in

55:06

the instant and then continue on

55:08

that path. He is

55:10

such an extraordinary songwriter. I just,

55:13

I'm endorsing my own Tom Waits playlist

55:16

with the title, Broken Bicycles, which is a Tom

55:19

Waits song, which

55:21

is on Spotify and I'm gonna link to it. But to the

55:23

extent that I just attempted to make a case for

55:25

this guy's songwriting ability, you

55:27

know, going all the way back to like, you know, old 55,

55:30

which was a huge hit for the Eagles. I

55:32

mean, it's just ability to write a pop melody. I

55:35

think it's lost in all of the, you

55:37

know, wild affectation, which I

55:39

love and it's not for everybody. So I

55:42

think he's one of the enduring, like,

55:44

you know, American songbook geniuses

55:47

in addition to this incredible schtick

55:50

that he's cultivated, which I

55:52

find winsome and quite daring in its way.

55:54

So I'm just endorsing, it's like

55:56

the sky is blue, love the TV show,

55:58

cheers.

55:59

and you can freeze your bread right

56:02

up there. I am endorsing Tom Waits.

56:04

All right, I want to hear this playlist.

56:08

You know, I heard that Taylor Swift and Tom Waits are

56:10

actually working on a duets album. God,

56:16

the, it's like the sheer

56:18

malevolence of that speaks

56:20

more to your soul than the state of mind,

56:22

Julian. Honestly,

56:23

it's not malevolence. It's just that

56:25

for all that you often pretend to

56:27

be wrong, you're not often

56:29

super wrong and just truly,

56:32

like the experience I had at the Taylor show, the

56:34

other thing that was most similar to this, and you're going to

56:36

laugh at this hyperbole, but like

56:38

it's truly not. The other concert going

56:40

experience it was similar to was when I went and saw

56:43

Paul McCartney at Dodger Stadium. And

56:45

like

56:46

every fucking song was

56:48

a hit and a banger. And you were like, how does

56:50

he have more? And then there just kept being more,

56:53

but that was a retrospective of like

56:55

a 50 plus year career that included being

56:57

in the fucking Beatles and several

56:59

other amazing

57:00

names. And her,

57:02

you know, she's not Paul McCartney yet, but like

57:07

her ability to write a really fucking great song was

57:10

on rampant display. And

57:13

someday

57:15

you'll fess up properly that you were wrong.

57:17

And I await that moment and it's going to

57:19

be great.

57:20

Nobody is better at being Taylor Swift

57:22

than Taylor Swift. I'll give you that. And Paul McCartney,

57:24

that's a good comp.

57:25

Don't like him either.

57:26

Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha.

57:28

Ha ha ha.

57:29

Ha ha ha. Ha ha ha. Ha ha

57:32

ha. Ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha. Ha ha

57:34

ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha.

57:36

Ha ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha ha. Ha ha ha ha. Ha

57:39

ha ha ha. Thanks, Julia. Thank you.

57:41

Dana, as always, a huge pleasure. Thank

57:44

you so much. Thanks to you. You'll

57:46

find links to some of the things we talked about today at our

57:48

show page. That's slate.com slash culture

57:50

fest. And you can email us at culturefest

57:53

at slate.com. Our introductory

57:55

music is written by Nicholas Bertel. Our

57:57

production assistant is Kat Hong.

57:59

producers, Cameron Drews, for Dana

58:02

Stevens and Julia Turner, and the wonderful

58:04

Wesley Morris. I'm Stephen Metcalf.

58:06

Thank you so much for joining us.

58:30

Hey

58:42

everybody, it's Tim Heidecker. You know me, Tim and

58:44

Eric, bridesmaids and

58:46

Fantastic Four. I'd like

58:48

to personally invite you to listen to Office Hours

58:50

Live with me and my co-hosts DJ

58:52

Doug Pound. Hello. And Vic

58:55

Berger. Howdy. Every week we bring you laughs, fun,

58:57

games and lots of other surprises. Office Hours

58:59

Live, we take your Zoom calls. We love having

59:01

fun. Excuse me? Songs. Vic

59:04

said something.

59:05

Songs. I like having fun. I like

59:07

to laugh. I like to meet

59:09

people who can make me laugh.

59:12

Please subscribe.