0:01

Believes. I'm

0:10

Steven Mecca and Mrs. These sleep

0:13

culture get first. True Detective's coldest

0:15

case yet. Addition: It's Wednesday, January

0:17

twenty fourth. Two thousand and Twenty

0:20

four on Today show. Each Beers

0:22

anthology series True Detective returns for

0:24

it's fourth season. It's set in

0:26

the darkest, most arctic part of

0:29

the United States and northernmost Alaska.

0:31

It's Jodie Foster and Kaylee Reese

0:33

as frenemies accent on enemies trying

0:36

to solve a surreal set of

0:38

murders together. And then origin is.

0:40

The new feature film from Ava

0:43

Duvernay, the director of Selna The

0:45

tells the true story of the

0:47

Pulitzer prize winning author Isabel Wilkerson

0:50

creation of her book cast The

0:52

Origin of Our Discontent and stars

0:54

ingenue Ellis Taylor and finally Pitchfork.

0:57

A rock snobs digital paradise it

0:59

became a critical institution is now

1:01

being folded into Gq some people

1:04

believe, and there's plenty of evidence

1:06

for that. It's going to be

1:09

all but destroyed. We. Discuss with

1:11

Slates own Carl Wilson. Joining us first

1:13

though is Jamil Buoy, the New York

1:15

Times columnist and Slate alumnus. hate your

1:17

mouth. Welcome back thank you for having

1:20

me! Yeah, it's great to have you

1:22

and of course Dana Stevens's the Film

1:24

critic for sleep.com Hey Dana. The

1:26

A. Steve. We have a rich vein

1:28

of topics. shall we go? Hadn't mine at we

1:30

ready. It's. Need. Or

1:32

it will. I think it's fair to say

1:35

that the original True Detective for the first

1:37

installment season one of the anthology series on

1:39

H B O was kind of guy Guy

1:41

T V to the core. Not that it

1:44

didn't have plenty of non guy guy fans,

1:46

i was one of them, but it was

1:48

a buddy cop show basically featuring. Female

1:51

Corpses. supernatural elements in a

1:53

lot of sudden eg and

1:55

philosophizing. It's fourth season, this

1:57

part omeish and part antidote.

2:00

That many of the same elements

2:02

are in this one. Only now

2:04

there is a new show runner,

2:06

a woman, a Mexican director he's

2:09

a Lopez. This one takes place

2:11

in northern most Alaska. just as

2:13

night like permanent night, Months and

2:15

months of the sunless season begins

2:18

to descend and just as eight

2:20

researchers in an arctic station go

2:22

mysteriously missing. Jodie Foster stars as

2:24

Elizabeth Danvers, the police chief of

2:27

a fictional small town called Ennis.

2:30

It's a frontier town, densely web do

2:32

with melodramas and intrigues and gossip, a

2:34

place where led to believe. Also, with

2:36

a living in the Dead mingle promiscuously

2:39

in the clip, you're going to hear

2:41

the voices of Foster and Kb Reese

2:43

resist characters a police trooper name, eventually

2:45

Navarro, and she thinks there's a connection

2:48

between this new case and an older

2:50

case that went unsolved. She's going to

2:52

butt heads with Fosters character who's in

2:55

charge of the investigation. Let's have a

2:57

listen. And he was. The

3:00

statue was on any funny. So.

3:05

Those are for had of warnings or guys. So

3:11

let's. Is the same case your

3:13

cigarette and cigar. any. An

3:18

hour, can we? You can. Ever since I

3:20

want to work with you, I do. actually.

3:22

Ah, See

3:24

a look in the mail is. Known

3:27

to stand. You suffer that

3:29

plucky prior. You

3:32

the very concise real Soon. And

3:35

I missing. Once

3:38

sauce. Or

3:42

didn't let me start with you have

3:44

been. There's a lot to unpack here.

3:46

I'm starting with Fosters, Who is? I

3:48

understand it hasn't been bullied in a

3:51

television show since the Nineteen seventies. Or

3:53

here she plays someone that she herself

3:55

has described as a kind of nightmare

3:57

Karen figure very hard to like. Investigating

4:00

a have to give nothing away.

4:02

A very bizarre of very surreal

4:04

crime. What did you make of

4:06

this mix? I mean. I'm excited this

4:08

is on the or they sell perfect, but

4:10

I feel like it's the kind of shell

4:12

I needed right now, which is sort of

4:15

it, so that kind of so. I like

4:17

that Laura Miller wrote for Slate about this

4:19

season, which see really enjoyed. A saying hits

4:21

Looking Back to Twenty Fourteen and the first

4:23

season of True Detective that Matthew Mcconaughey, Woody

4:25

Harrelson season which was as I remember it's

4:27

you know, all the topic of conversation, the

4:29

kind of thing people would be unpacking that

4:31

differed days afterward and waiting for the next

4:34

Sunday installment in a very old school Tv

4:36

way that. It it. Probably doesn't really

4:38

hold up to scrutiny now, but it was

4:40

in such a different landscape at the time

4:42

that it celts really artful and inventive. but

4:44

all the things about it felt so artful

4:46

and inventive. I feel like have since come.

4:48

Under closer scrutiny. Including you know

4:50

to white guys driving around talking about

4:52

a bunch of dead girl's and you

4:54

noticed a lot about that says gender

4:57

and racial politics were just of it's

4:59

time in a way that this season

5:01

has a has reinvented I think pretty

5:03

successfully it's the setting the best thing

5:05

about this So first of all from

5:07

what I've seen so far Ennis Alaska

5:09

is just such a real or and

5:11

more specific ceiling place then the the

5:13

vague the and southern town that the

5:15

first season took place in which as

5:17

Laura points out with more just to

5:19

sort of backdrop. For two guys to drive

5:21

around in a car talking about crime. Bits and

5:23

Is really feels like a specific place. I

5:26

feel like even just two episodes into the

5:28

so I know Ceo who runs the local

5:30

bar and what kind of place it is.

5:32

And you know how the native inhabitants relate

5:34

to the white inhabitants and us and what

5:36

the descending of darkness for months on end

5:39

means to the kind of general fabric of

5:41

the town. So I love Ennis and I

5:43

love seeing Jodie Foster again. She's having this

5:45

great comeback moment just this morning that of

5:47

the day we're talking see was nominated for

5:49

best supporting Actress Oscar for Niad and A

5:52

As someone who. Grew up with Jodie

5:54

Foster. Just always always on on

5:56

screens around. Me of it's really

5:58

fun to see her back playing a

6:00

big the juicy, challenging table anti hero

6:03

of of this style. So I'm pretty

6:05

much all in at this point and

6:07

or maybe some doubts will creep in

6:09

later. but it's only six episodes long

6:12

and I'm planning on following the whole

6:14

thing. Or dame is all

6:16

in the Tamil? were you on this

6:18

one? I. Loved it! Be.

6:20

Closing scene of the first episode

6:23

was not just legitimately shocking to

6:25

be like a severe with of

6:27

expect they tell you top tier

6:30

four. And what I like

6:32

about this version of true Detective: This.

6:35

Particular. Reason is as if I should say

6:37

i have you ever watched the first. Season.

6:39

The first anthology he sees of

6:41

the other two didn't really interest

6:43

me. there might be the first.

6:45

Once had this really strong sense

6:47

of cosmic thread which is as

6:49

he was was made it work

6:51

that you're sort of. It's not

6:53

just a conspiracy, but there's something

6:55

like Trump League or that existential

6:57

level happening. In. The surroundings

7:00

very Lovecraft the It and this

7:02

season I think Texas elements in

7:04

turn some up even further that

7:06

there is like this is of

7:09

Lovecraft the In Terror. People.

7:12

Are witnessing or experience things of

7:14

fuel incomprehensible that I find really

7:17

appealing? That's the kind of horror

7:19

that I like. That

7:22

you know, the non euclidean geometry

7:24

drives you insane China for and

7:26

so I've really taken with as

7:28

a statistic exactly up my alley.

7:30

It's a pleasure see Jodie Foster

7:32

I in in some big events

7:35

hundreds minimal and a little while

7:37

and of Europe she's reminding us

7:39

is one of the best and

7:41

I'm Kelly Reese is terrific. I

7:44

have not seen her in a meeting before

7:46

and but every time she's on screen I

7:48

I can, I can take my eyes off

7:50

of her and so, yeah. I'm.

7:52

Like all and I'll the Ottawa so I

7:54

that he beat these days I'm I'm going

7:56

to watch all of this true detective. I

7:59

am. All. In: I'm I'm

8:01

right by both are you? I am

8:04

so taken with this. It's not as

8:06

you say day in a perfect but.

8:08

Something. About the descent of

8:11

this omnipresent, You know what? unyielding

8:13

darkness on this community feels really

8:15

real in the sense that it

8:18

sends people into a nocturnal mental

8:20

space in which you're probably prone

8:22

to seeing the dead end. You

8:25

can be agnostic. it's with such

8:27

a premises, the weather the dead

8:29

are actually present in some supernatural

8:32

sense or only present to mind

8:34

that works. Great foster. I love

8:37

that she's kind of Clarice. Starling

8:39

Reborn. That kind of set

8:41

Rick dislike mean of face

8:44

trying to fathom something very

8:46

weird and very evil. Hearkens

8:49

back to Silence of the Lambs and

8:52

peak Jodie Foster with some Karen thrown

8:54

in. She's the she's either borderline or

8:56

outright racist, or it's implied that there

8:59

is up senses hierarchy between the. You.

9:01

Know indigenous population of the

9:03

town and and the white

9:05

European population of the town

9:07

and the interaction between her

9:09

and and Kaylee Rhesus. Remarkably

9:11

T loses seedings with all

9:13

kinds of. Semi.

9:15

Hidden rages essence entered entirely

9:18

earned resentments and and she's

9:20

pass about it to it's

9:22

like she's. The. Third

9:25

Day or a great buddy pairing

9:27

I'm let me put it that

9:29

way. and then as you say,

9:31

that sort of did the set

9:33

of images that end episode one.

9:35

No spoilers like the is. A

9:38

mean, it's just like have a Dell acquire

9:41

paint in some sense. you know what is

9:43

it does? does a certain apple as as

9:45

me, I'm forgetting which one. there's one on

9:47

a life raft. I'm getting all my you

9:49

know sort of canonical paintings mixed up, but

9:51

it has that kind of an indelible quality.

9:55

And dubs a Dana That director

9:57

has said that. You know,

9:59

don't care. There's the thing

10:01

Kubrick, the signing the Stroma

10:03

does the is this element

10:06

that does just heavily in

10:08

this in this show the

10:10

gives it it some weird.

10:13

Uri, Depths of some. Of

10:15

feeling. Yes, wintery horror and it's

10:18

definitely als into that category as people isolated

10:20

in as in a very cold place who,

10:22

yeah, who get into some sort of state

10:24

that might be supernatural or it might just

10:26

be that they're seeing things in the snow.

10:29

And since since you mentioned seeing the dead

10:31

I just have to set up the only

10:33

Saw who plays the secondary characters who were

10:35

used to seeing right the state leads british

10:38

The only saw us as playing these kind

10:40

as an. Start see: upper class

10:42

British characters. She's great! I always

10:44

loved the undersigned everything spin here says

10:46

this amazing kind of stoner hermit who

10:48

lives off in a cabin and has

10:50

a specific talent for you're getting messages

10:53

from from the dead which this is

10:55

a wonderful scene and in the second

10:57

episode of the season where she sits

10:59

around getting high with Kaylee. Reese and

11:01

talking about her experience. Of have seen

11:03

those in the snow and it's it's. the

11:05

only saw I've never seen before to sing

11:07

about the dead. Isn't

11:10

some of them come and visit because. Some.

11:15

Com because they need to tell

11:17

you something that you need to

11:19

hear. On.

11:23

A date with. I

11:26

was gonna add just to verb

11:28

a reference to Carpenter either I

11:30

think not. Just the thing. But.

11:32

I am a lesser seen car perturb a

11:34

fog. Of yeah, the

11:37

fog. Or being a

11:39

carpenter retread of be a like he

11:41

added me of the movie because of

11:43

the physical phenomena that like structuring the

11:45

story is this week though. Heavy fog

11:48

that is covering this coastal town on

11:50

that makes it impossible to kind of

11:52

really perceive what's out there and is

11:54

very much I think a lot of

11:57

that in in this true detective kind

11:59

of not. The snow and the

12:01

darkness. I'm to bug kind of dead

12:03

the dead the fog of the town

12:05

as it worse for the like. The

12:07

update the spiritual energy occur as as

12:09

a kind of fog that makes it

12:12

hard to see I'm a really is

12:14

in front of you. Had that

12:16

sounds to me and when when is. If somebody had

12:18

told me and the is a character and is the

12:20

atmosphere is so oppressive I would think that it would

12:22

be something. Really over determined didn't. Either

12:24

hokey but I still like the so

12:26

skillfully evokes that atmosphere without a hammering

12:29

you on the head with an with

12:31

metaphors about is it just places you

12:33

there and only a couple hours. In

12:35

It already feels like a real place. I.

12:37

Think the so terrific. I'm glad you're all in

12:39

with me. Yeah, hear her. Bit back

12:42

to H B A Sunday nights of the. Seventy

12:44

Four thousand, sauce up Novak or right?

12:46

Well it's a true detective season for

12:48

on H B O, a couple episodes

12:50

or out another one's about to drop

12:52

a check it out let us know

12:54

you think. Let's let's move on. This

12:58

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FDIC. Steve,

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I think you're probably with me on this. I

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know when I have money that I've earned and

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one of these rewards programs my favorite thing to

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spend it on his travel and I know you're

14:10

huge Travel guides give any big trips on the

14:12

calendar for this year or some dream destination you

14:15

been wanting to visit. Okay is

14:17

funny that you should us that.

14:19

but I've been laboring over an

14:21

essay about George Orwell and the

14:24

conditions under which he wrote his

14:26

iconic novel, Nineteen Eighty Four, which

14:28

he wrote on this Scottish Ireland,

14:30

Ireland in the Inner Hebrides Com

14:33

era. And. I'm trying to

14:35

go there now that I've read

14:37

extensively about Orwell's lice. there are

14:40

many set up a homestead he

14:42

loved it, he built and houses

14:44

and cyst for lobsters and seafood.

14:47

And. It was living that way

14:49

that he wrote. You know, arguably one

14:52

of the most important masterpieces of twentieth

14:54

century section at least in English. It's

14:57

so amazing that's a great dystopian novel of

14:59

the twentieth century was written it utopia. You

15:02

nailed it, does. That's exactly the

15:05

kind of. Antithesis? really. But

15:07

I'm setting up in the Usa. Anyway,

15:09

Exploring that relationship in his own sort

15:12

of creative mind and prophecies has been

15:14

a real durning. Wow. I

15:16

really hope you get to go there and I can't wait to

15:18

read this essay! Iran.

15:21

Before we go any further, this is a

15:23

moment in our podcast we discuss business Dana:

15:25

What would we have this week? Steve.

15:27

Only had to sweet as tell us news about

15:30

isolate Plus segment this week at your suggestion. Actually,

15:32

we're going to be talking about Sopranos which turns

15:34

twenty five years old at not just this year,

15:36

but this months and or it's been tough to

15:38

that a lot in the media over the past

15:41

few weeks because obviously it's a groundbreaking. Tv

15:43

shows. It changed the entire medium. So.

15:45

For I Sleep Less segment we will talk about

15:47

that says legacy, our own memories of it, and

15:49

whether or not we are still living in the

15:51

era of the Sopranos on Tv. If you're Sleep

15:54

Less member even hear that conversation at the end

15:56

of the shell. And if you're not a sleepless

15:58

number, you can sign up at Sleep. I'm

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flash because you're blessed. Why would you do

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that? Well, You get bonus content like the

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please sign up today. it's late.coms less culture

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Plus once again that. sleep.com/culture Plus.

16:23

Or it on with the so. Or

16:25

it will the feature film words

16:27

as the creation of the filmmaker

16:29

Ava Duvernay the director. Of course

16:32

I'm Selma, Thirteenth and a wrinkle

16:34

in time. This is I would

16:36

say it up front of a

16:38

hard zone to describe it's a

16:40

feature film about the writing of

16:42

a book or the book and

16:44

question is cast the origins of

16:46

or discontents by or the journalist

16:48

Isabel Wilkerson. But it's also part

16:50

grief drama. It's a travelogue. It's

16:52

filled with historical reenactments. Or and

16:54

I think it's fair. To say

16:56

a polemical essay Wilkerson book

16:58

by with context that a

17:00

central argument the cast is

17:02

in some ways more analytically

17:04

powerful, more analytically satisfying way

17:06

to think about formalize systems

17:08

of subordination and domination than

17:10

races with. Courses. A

17:12

controversial plane will get into it

17:14

by way of making that argument

17:16

see, knit Together, Jim Crow in

17:18

the United States, the Nazi Aryan

17:20

race laws in Nazi Germany, and

17:22

the caste system in India in

17:25

a kind of third print theory

17:27

of a exploitation and other things.

17:29

The film stars are new, Else

17:31

Taylor as Wilkerson. Ah, it also

17:33

stars John Byrne Ball of Zero

17:35

For Me A Girl, and there's

17:37

a brief appearance by Nick Offerman

17:39

and up Blair Underwood anywhere in

17:41

the clip. York here. Ellis Taylor

17:43

as a Isabel talking to a

17:45

friend about an argument that she's

17:47

building for her new book. Let's

17:49

listen. The nazi blueprints,

17:53

For the extermination of millions

17:55

of people. wasn't a wrestling

17:57

patterned after America's enslave. And

18:01

Segregation A black people. America

18:04

taught the Nazis. Cast

18:06

in America in Germany. It

18:10

functions the same. The

18:13

outcomes may be different. Like the being

18:15

said, But it is the same.

18:19

I think that the caste. System in India as

18:21

I think that there's a connection there

18:23

to would. Be.

18:25

Interconnected. That

18:28

is my point. That is what.

18:33

Tamil. Let me let me start with you.

18:35

I'm in sort of, regardless of how much one.

18:38

Buys. The argument behind it. And

18:40

regardless of how much one might

18:42

be taken by the movie in

18:44

part or and whole, there's nothing

18:46

easy going on here. This is

18:48

kerry off. An argument like that

18:51

as an argument is itself analytically

18:53

complex, it's very provocative. And then

18:55

to dramatize it as a film.

18:59

Is a white Be a Steinmetz. Maybe.

19:02

Because you've read the book, described

19:04

the relationship of the book to

19:07

the film and how convincing you

19:09

find. The argument itself.

19:12

The film is as much sort

19:14

of like memoir as it is

19:16

This argument as a quite a

19:19

tactic. Arguments I'm the relationship of

19:21

cast to various systems of hierarchy.

19:24

The book is not does not

19:26

have as much of the memoirs.

19:29

There are personal anecdotes that come

19:31

in as Wilkerson makes her argument

19:33

by the book is much more

19:35

traditional and structure. It's not dumb

19:37

be kind of combination memoir travelogues

19:40

argument that's the film is. And

19:42

aussi to the film's credit, this is

19:44

like a very interesting way of trying

19:46

to adapt the nonfiction work of trying

19:49

to tie in the personal experience with

19:51

the author with the origin of the

19:53

both and so on so forth. I'm

19:56

not sure that it works cinematically, but

19:58

a year you gotta admire idiots him

20:00

to do something very new. As for

20:03

the argument. I.

20:05

Don't find a convincing. I didn't find convincing them

20:07

to read the book. I don't find a convincing

20:09

in the film and the seen. That

20:12

we heard. Which. Itself is ripping

20:14

off of a previous seen. Am

20:17

to my mind the criticism that

20:19

A carried the character the previous

20:21

see makes that's. You. Know

20:23

for all of these similarities. Between.

20:27

You. Know: Jim Crow Racism. Or

20:30

or American Slavery and not seeing

20:32

the anti semitism for all of

20:34

the very real similarities for the

20:36

very real connections especially between. I'm.

20:39

Jim Crow laws and Nazi

20:41

Racial laws of it does

20:43

actually matter like analytically. That.

20:46

The Point of American Cel

20:48

Racism. Was. The control

20:50

and exploitation and expropriation of labor

20:52

apiece for this is primarily a

20:55

system of labor where is not

20:57

is anti semitism was it was

20:59

A B B B End was.

21:03

Extermination. And that

21:05

that's think stuff that a thing

21:07

can brush off right? Because if

21:09

the argument of the book and

21:12

of the film is that cast

21:14

is this trans historical deep structure

21:16

of human societies that manifest as

21:18

way manifests of differently in different

21:20

size. but he hasn't has the

21:23

same fundamental logic I'm throughout. Then.

21:26

A logic but ends with. Him.

21:28

A case of American Racism. We.

21:31

Have a system of labor control that

21:33

depends on the reproduction of the laborers.

21:35

And in Nazi Germany we have a

21:37

system that's depends on the extermination of

21:40

this of the lower cassis in in

21:42

workers hims language. That's the fundamental difference

21:44

in that can't be brushed away. And

21:46

my problem just with their the

21:49

argument synthesiser. This as he mentions

21:51

even this is I'm. This.

21:53

Film is. It's

21:56

an argument. Deprive home with

21:58

the argument is that. He.

22:00

Brushes off at critique in doesn't really

22:02

attempt to engage with it. I'm

22:04

a candidate. The book and the film Pivots

22:07

India. Ah and says they

22:09

cast has been in the early

22:11

thousands of years old and it's

22:13

describe nice very stark and flat

22:15

in terms in the in the

22:17

ecosystem is is quite stark but

22:20

here again we have a system.

22:23

That. Isn't as rigid and

22:25

unchanging? As it's presented,

22:28

In that many Indian scholars a mirror

22:30

critics who spoke and in other words

22:32

have pointed out of the Indian caste

22:34

system that we think of. As.

22:37

Being based completely rigid and unbending

22:39

things Oh is as much to

22:41

bear subcontinents encounters in the eighteenth

22:44

nineteenth century with a British Empire

22:46

as it does these ancient religious

22:48

traditions an occupational specializations that kind

22:51

have like meld together. And.

22:54

Might you know my my be critique

22:56

of the book in of this movie

22:58

kind of by extension is that. If.

23:01

Everything is cast. The.

23:03

Nothing is right. That. Like

23:05

if we're going to obliterate

23:08

the specific conditions under which

23:10

these systems emerge. If. We're

23:12

going to say ignore all that in say, oh,

23:15

this is all kind of the same thing because

23:17

of what are ultimately somewhat superficial similarities between the

23:19

three. Then like I guess everything is cast, That

23:21

everything is cast and but as of explain. right?

23:24

A You're sort of both extrapolating

23:27

this anthropological constant right? This through.

23:30

Algebraic. Variable across otherwise seemingly

23:32

very distinct societies in order to

23:35

what exactly right? Because then you're

23:37

left with will. How do you

23:39

eradicate that and how European adjusters

23:42

required in order to move human

23:44

beings beyond a thing that we

23:47

all have in common and seems

23:49

trance. historical. Anyway,

23:51

since but you have an item and not the

23:53

monopolizes too much. but I'll say that in the

23:55

book. The. Solution is a change

23:58

of heart and consciousness. That's

24:00

me as the giveaway services Just like.

24:03

Advices mean this is sort of like

24:05

not a serious. Method of Analysis

24:07

and out. The last thing I'll say is

24:09

that Wilkerson and She can a that the

24:11

movie kind of alludes to this but the

24:14

cast thesis first pops up in the thirties

24:16

and forties like it's not a new thing

24:18

he am secrecy to. I'm making is the

24:20

exact critique that was made at the time.

24:23

Yeah. Fair enough dinner and dog

24:25

Me as at the heart of the

24:28

argument that on a like things must

24:30

not cross breed that marriage between tribes

24:32

is forbidden. And what one thing I

24:34

do find genuinely interesting about the movie

24:37

is that it's. Purposefully,

24:39

non and doggedness, right? It's like

24:41

taking all of these honors and

24:43

confusing them together in ways that

24:45

are challenging to the viewer but

24:47

at least original to the to

24:49

the film. Would you make of

24:51

it as a film. I.

24:53

Mean Credits: Ava Duvernay for did making

24:55

a big slang making a movie that

24:57

is not. Commercially, they suddenly.

24:59

Appealing. It's hard to imagine this being like

25:01

a date new the didn't get any Oscar

25:03

nominations he's not interested in, you know, necessarily

25:05

making this into a blockbuster and that's commendable.

25:07

but this myth it is not works on

25:09

a level of the movie for someone is

25:11

not familiar with the blood at all. I

25:13

as there's so many long movies last year

25:15

right? it was really the year of long

25:17

movies. Never miss her to saying that at

25:19

the end of the the year this movie

25:21

which is still hours and twenty minutes long

25:23

is that you know not even the length

25:25

as I don't know a anatomy, the fall

25:28

or another the sort of long hits. Of

25:30

last year. feels so much longer. Still feels

25:32

like it. It could be one of the

25:34

like a freestanding Tv season or something because

25:36

it goes everywhere. I mean it as the

25:38

best part of that. I would say it

25:40

may be the first half hour which is

25:42

just about Isabel Lucas and getting the idea

25:45

for the books about some tragedies in her

25:47

personal life that tennis, you know launcher. On

25:49

the journey of doing the research. I

25:52

think the first half hour sort of feels like

25:54

it's going to be a movie about someone having

25:56

a big idea trying to execute it. Said Sen

25:58

isn't as the movie. Can about trying

26:01

to reenact historical situations and in

26:03

which he has his big ideas

26:05

being illustrated. just really felt to

26:08

me like almost History channel level.

26:10

Recreations Year. In which

26:12

essentially as you Ellis Taylor as Isabel

26:14

Wilkerson is is narrating ideas from the

26:17

book bothers exact things are being acted

26:19

out. That's the History Channel kind of

26:21

factor. Raise it should be saying like

26:23

and the Nazis had a meeting in

26:25

which they disgusts you know, Americans racial

26:28

law as a model for the Third

26:30

Reich And then she will just see

26:32

unnamed and identified characters who are Nazis

26:34

sitting in a room doing that exact

26:36

thing. So there's like this very one

26:39

to one kind of dullness of the

26:41

reenactments. But. Mainly. I

26:43

just feel like it is it. Movie is

26:45

so scattered and sprawling that by the time

26:48

she goes to India's Isabel looks against ghosts

26:50

India. I mean, it's. You. Know

26:52

nearly. I don't It's like

26:54

two hours into a two hour and

26:57

twenty minute movie and a whole new

26:59

culture. A whole new history that's thousands

27:01

of years long is being sold as

27:03

in and it just feels like it's

27:05

doing a disservice to all of the

27:07

Colossus being illustrated but also just to

27:09

to the watchers intelligence and I and

27:11

understanding. And one more thing I want

27:13

to say in response to do now

27:15

was it. Is shockingly precisely

27:17

the criticism that that we're making and it

27:20

was apparently made of her book when it

27:22

came out. And Twenty Twenty is made by

27:24

a character in the movie A Great. There's

27:26

this scene where she's in Berlin, she's researching

27:29

the Nazis. She has dinner with a cutlet

27:31

seems to be a couple I think a

27:33

man and wife who are white Germans and

27:35

with an American. a fellow Americans. And

27:37

then this is moment which the German woman in the

27:40

couple makes. This critique of. The idea is very similar

27:42

to the one to mail just made in it. I

27:44

guess many critics did when the book came out. American

27:46

slavery as the rooted. In

27:48

such as this. So. Many things:

27:51

Blacks for the purposes of

27:53

capitalism. using. Body

27:55

some labor. For Profit.

27:58

But. So. The

28:01

Jews during the Holocaust. The Income.

28:03

Was. Not. Subjugation. It

28:07

was extermination. Kills.

28:11

And it just seems disingenuous to be the

28:13

way the movie glosses that over. And also

28:15

by putting it in the mouth of this

28:17

in a white German woman sort of makes

28:19

it seem as if it's a racist comment.

28:22

Road. Burberry there are this could be

28:24

critique of I'm expressing and I also

28:26

use. It for to the

28:29

book again I i looked up by both

28:31

have more V reviews this was you

28:33

know why scholars be discreet secretly Park

28:35

scholars Me this he can be and

28:37

inside with this critique it's like and

28:39

thought this isn't this This isn't the

28:41

case of ah you know. As

28:43

is it prices in the movie

28:45

I think and why people not

28:48

wanting to own up. To

28:50

the reality here it's like know this is

28:52

like a serious. It. Out conceptual

28:54

critique being made. One thing that

28:56

I think about babies, I come

28:59

across her comments as much. Is.

29:02

I'm in. the movie is a was a good

29:04

deal of if evenly cause like a third of

29:06

it are the as like historical recreation some of

29:09

them better than others but one of them that

29:11

i sound. Disgraceful.

29:13

This. It's I

29:15

felt really distasteful and I did

29:17

not like and really soured weeks

29:19

probably more band of yay for.

29:21

If he were a bear I

29:23

probably would have pads a slightly

29:25

less harsh for developed his or

29:27

deserve. The movie begins with. A

29:30

recreation. Of. The.

29:33

Tree of on Martin's encounter with Tories

29:35

and remain. So begins

29:38

with that. And a mess

29:40

spoiling. Anything to say that it's

29:42

rid of ends with Seven Martin's

29:44

Force ghost like know smiling at

29:46

Wilkerson. And sister to like. What?

29:49

Do we do? And. What? Are we do And.

29:51

I didn't realize save on that list with

29:53

painful any the beginning. it made some sense

29:55

because I guess it was her being offered

29:58

that story and to cover that story. Journalists

30:00

in rejecting it, they got her going on the block better.

30:02

Go save on at the end and all the

30:04

ghosts or just to me that really takes it

30:06

into a realm as bad taste it is Not.

30:08

Forgivable. I think

30:10

work as a panel relatively unified and are

30:13

critical judgment of this movie I'm i wonder

30:15

to most you to a little bit to

30:17

the performances which I think struck all of

30:19

us is quite strong. Yes,

30:21

I is. It's funny. The things I

30:23

actually liked most about this movie is

30:25

the kind of domestic drama part. I

30:27

thought jumper Fall was fantastic. I thought

30:29

he's really. Convincing.

30:32

And empathetic and and and I release.

30:34

I really enjoyed his time on stream

30:36

or my that Niecy Nash was terrific

30:38

as well, sort of the interaction of

30:41

Wilkerson with her family. I found. Very.

30:43

Compelling to watch most of the time to

30:45

mouse for most. Interested.

30:48

And. Compelled by

30:50

the Movie. And

30:52

didn't remove the can up like that. Argument them

30:55

should have said you're you're my thoughts on that

30:57

already. Or it a. Very.

30:59

Com Plex bundle of ambitions

31:02

and aspects to this movie.

31:04

It is hard to critically

31:06

some up. Succinctly,

31:09

Of if you do check it out and you disagree

31:11

with us we'd love to hear from you shoot us

31:14

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33:50

it will. The Music Review

33:52

website pitchfork was depending on

33:54

who you ask either a

33:56

lyrically written very Thoughtful of

33:58

Masses Encyclopedia of. Popular Music

34:00

Criticism or Iraq snobs paradise? That

34:02

was a ongoing debate for it's

34:04

entirety history, which may now be

34:06

coming to a close or may

34:08

not it's been absorbed. On.

34:11

To Gq via Com Day Nast

34:13

as I understand it by way

34:15

of beginning the process of cutting

34:17

it down to the bone. I

34:19

he, it's better have the same

34:21

dubious fate as for example, Sports

34:23

Illustrated at various other legacy magazines

34:25

or web sites. Were joined by

34:27

Slates own music critic Carl Wilson

34:29

to discuss. In a what

34:31

Pitchfork was what it meant and what losing

34:33

it might means. Car Welcome to the welcome

34:36

to the show! So happy to be here!

34:38

Talk a little bit about what this news meant

34:40

to you when you heard it and from their

34:42

about the larger implications of that. Yes,

34:45

so just some background for people

34:47

who may or may not know.

34:49

Pitchfork launched in the mid nineties

34:51

and Ninety Ninety Six am basically

34:53

as a blog and friend by

34:55

Ranch Driver who was kind of

34:57

newly out of high school working

34:59

as a clerk in a record

35:01

store and started as the highly

35:03

opinionated and that cites are him

35:05

and and a few friends to

35:07

review indie rock albums for the

35:09

most parts and. Quite

35:12

quickly grew into something else. him

35:14

by the two thousands if was

35:17

arguably the most influential voice in

35:19

music criticism I'm and especially in

35:21

indie rock status as him, but

35:24

also a highly contentious one partly

35:26

because it implemented the scoring system

35:28

of ranking albums not only out

35:31

of ten, bit out of ten

35:33

to at the nearest decimal place.

35:36

So so you go from zero

35:38

point zero to two point? Oh

35:40

I guess as. As

35:43

your ratings and and that was. Really?

35:47

Easy, easy click bait and caused

35:49

a lot of attention to be

35:51

drawn. But

35:53

something happened along the way. It also

35:55

kind of grew up from a very

35:57

snarky, very indie blaze. So kissed. Website

36:00

that are made its name

36:02

kind of popularizing bands like

36:05

Broken Social Scene and Arcade

36:07

Fire and Animal Collective and

36:10

The Lakes and. Gradually.

36:12

Started maturing as it expanded

36:14

it's writers space and moved

36:16

away from an all white

36:18

males are writing writing staff

36:20

to something that kind of

36:22

covered music much more broadly

36:24

into the Twenty Ten Paralleling,

36:26

I think of a transition

36:28

that was happening in music

36:30

itself were that in the

36:32

world was less and less

36:34

of a. Walled

36:37

compound and and started interacting more

36:39

with some pop world at large

36:41

and. Certainly much more with

36:43

black music to the point

36:46

that in twenty fifteen counting

36:48

asked spot them out of

36:50

saying that they wanted to

36:52

take advantage of Pitchforks audiences

36:55

coach passionate millennium males. And

36:58

they've got through a series of

37:00

other editors the The Schreiber and

37:02

most recently it's a Piece of

37:04

a tell a young women of

37:07

color who spend it since twenty

37:09

eighteen and relieved even more so

37:11

presided over a diversification. And

37:13

a deepening critical voice. And

37:16

it really I would say

37:18

for the past half decade

37:20

and more has been a

37:22

model of what good music

37:24

Cruises of can be. From

37:26

it's news and investigative reporting

37:28

to it's ongoing in a

37:30

really widespread i'm covering the

37:32

Water Friends Review section. And.

37:36

Then. It feels like they

37:38

are being punished for all of

37:40

that growth because Cardenas looked at

37:42

it and said that's not will

37:45

We were looking for and decided

37:47

to sold Pitchfork this week under

37:49

the imprint of Gq. It's very

37:51

unclear what that's good and mean

37:53

now, but basically they're I think

37:55

there's gonna be cheeky. his music

37:58

vertical in some sense, keeping. Brand

38:00

name Pitchfork keeping as the Pitch

38:02

Work Live Music Festival which of

38:04

course is a Cash Cow but

38:07

laying off most of the senior

38:09

staff. I think the top eight.

38:12

People. Are gone. Aside from

38:14

Germy Larsen the review editor and

38:16

Pooja Patel itself is gone. I

38:18

keep some people who worked there

38:20

for ten fifteen years and them.

38:22

And we really don't know. What? The

38:25

fate of Pitchfork is going to be

38:27

from here out, and so far it's

38:29

looks like a sort of diminished version

38:31

of business as usual, but there's no

38:34

way to really know until we watch

38:36

it happen. But that does. It really

38:38

contributed to an overwhelming feeling of doom

38:41

and music journalism recently you know, which

38:43

has seen waves if after wave of

38:45

this kind of cutbacks for a decade,

38:48

but particularly in the past couple of

38:50

years and and really making people wonder

38:52

about the future of of the. Art

38:54

of Music Criticism, and and I think we

38:56

can broaden that out to criticism in general.

38:59

Yeah I call it Really struck me last

39:01

week last week was just such a week

39:03

as as mornings or anybody who works in

39:05

in journalism and criticisms and it seem like

39:07

so many hits were coming at one step

39:09

at a pitchfork news wealth and I think

39:11

the next day it was Sports Illustrated folding

39:13

and Minami morning. The see things may seem

39:15

odd because I'm sure. I clicked on Sports

39:18

Illustrated. Maybe once in my sights.

39:20

Tidbits for maybe half a dozen

39:22

times. But it's not really about

39:24

individual readership, it's the idea that

39:26

they're a specialized publications where journalists

39:28

who are experts in some things

39:30

can get paid to make a

39:32

living and d work. And the

39:34

disappearances that is. This is happening

39:36

so rapidly in every. Field

39:39

of Human Now it's that it really

39:41

says to feel like the Library of

39:43

Alexandria is burning and as something that

39:45

you gave us to read by by

39:47

Boris Nate the music critics who is

39:50

among other places freelance for Pitchforks really

39:52

certainly in that she was talking about

39:54

the amount of of editorial work that

39:56

went into her pieces on Pitchfork. That

39:58

when he wrote a profile or something. That site

40:00

it would have to editors. A

40:02

copy editor of Fact Checker. See her that

40:04

she would have. Time and space

40:07

and attention to to develop her writing

40:09

into something worthwhile. And or and I

40:11

think if you don't work within journalism

40:13

over the past decade, you don't see

40:15

the extent to which that's disappearing all

40:18

around us. But the evidence is there

40:20

that disappearing all around us. not only

40:22

insights folding right unless but in there

40:24

being so much junk, the so much

40:26

bad writing online it isn't fact checked

40:29

and isn't coffee edited and not to

40:31

mention you know a i slide starting

40:33

to intrude and everything. So maybe this

40:35

isn't so mists. A question has a

40:37

giant ringing his hands put up but as

40:40

I just feel a lot of solidarity

40:42

with journalists even who work in in fields

40:44

that you know had nothing to do with

40:46

my own writing. Yeah, I mean

40:48

I think that people. Tend

40:51

to think well. so what if there

40:53

is still critics you know, producing newsletters

40:55

and still out there on on social

40:58

media and still, you know. Although again

41:00

this is dwindled and dwindled, but still

41:02

having you know a music critic working

41:04

for a general interest magazine or newspaper.

41:07

But I think there's a real difference

41:09

in the sense of a conversation, in

41:11

the sense of the sense of there

41:14

being a center of the action, a

41:16

sense of there being communities out there

41:18

that you can be a part of.

41:21

Ends the idea that particular

41:23

subject matters are worth drilling

41:25

down on and worth thinking

41:27

about and and longer form

41:29

more reflective ways rather than

41:31

just being part of the

41:33

news of the day. And

41:35

that that seems to me,

41:37

Pitchfork is been the most

41:39

viable version of that in

41:41

in music media. And you

41:43

know somebody, a cartoonist kind

41:45

of leaked in a on

41:47

Twitter or last week that

41:50

it's still. In. Terms of

41:52

daily Readership: The best read

41:54

of Cardenas web sites which

41:56

really makes you think what

41:58

is the business. Thinking here

42:00

and you know I think it's

42:03

it's really comes down to you

42:05

know I'm the one hand. What

42:07

do what is easy to sell

42:09

to big advertisers and what sounds

42:11

good to investors and brother James

42:13

of to be supplied or who

42:16

does? who does her own newsletter

42:18

and and rights a lot about

42:20

economics and music from sort of

42:22

and marxist philosophical perspective brought up

42:24

the fact that this has cut

42:27

this kind of let's three consolidate

42:29

the mail music. Audience as the

42:31

thing that we can sell to investors

42:33

is really you know a kind of

42:35

a six and I would say you

42:38

know their as many women now especially

42:40

reading and talking and writing about music

42:42

as there are men and anything is

42:45

certainly to a greater degree than ever

42:47

before and Pitchfork has been helpful with

42:49

that. You know surprisingly given it's kind

42:52

of Frat Boys seeming origins. And

42:55

three, consolidating that image of

42:57

who's allowed in and who's

42:59

important. In that conversation is

43:02

a really unfortunate turn for things

43:04

to take and and again I

43:06

think comes from a much more

43:08

like this quarter next quarter business

43:10

head sinking stem from any real

43:12

thought about what's gonna be successful

43:14

with readers over the long term.

43:17

And would a answer for new with what you think. Will.

43:20

Be be. Impact

43:22

On. Listeners of music.

43:25

Ah, I know, speaking from

43:27

my own personal history. I.

43:30

Pitch work was a really important to

43:32

me as a could at seventeen eighteen

43:35

nineteen year old very much interested in

43:37

music and interested in the music. End

43:39

of it shouldn't like what is new

43:41

and an interesting and and exciting. And

43:43

I don't either. I can't imagine. Being

43:46

that age in this moment in the

43:48

even knowing where to start to discover

43:50

anything to discover to think that I

43:52

would have never discovered on my own.

43:55

Yeah. I mean, I think that's the

43:57

big question that people are asking at the

43:59

moment. And part of the reason

44:02

we're asking it is that kinda

44:04

the thing that's putatively replacing the

44:06

long time kind of way that

44:09

Music talk has circulated among fans

44:11

and professional critics as kind of

44:13

a back and forth is. Algorithmic.

44:16

Recommendation: Read the notes:

44:18

Playlists on Spotify or

44:20

whatever streaming service you

44:22

subscribe to and that

44:24

kind of. Assumptions

44:27

that it has programmed into. It's

44:29

about what's you will like if

44:31

you like the thing that you

44:33

just played. Am I think that

44:35

all of us have experienced how

44:37

imperfect that system isn't? it? It

44:39

tends by it's nature to lean

44:41

towards a sort of lowest common

44:43

denominator am rather then really thoughtfully

44:45

paying attention to what the features

44:47

of the things that you seem

44:49

to be interested in our and

44:51

recommend them to you. I mean

44:54

they could get better, but the.

44:56

The. Biggest problem with that, to me

44:58

is that it lacks any cultural

45:01

context. He notes that the algorithms

45:03

don't care, particularly what. World.

45:05

What seen wet, Wet community Those Be

45:07

Six come from and why they were

45:09

made and the and the kinds of

45:11

things that thoughtful criticism can bring you

45:13

about the history of what you're listening

45:15

to and therefore what it means and

45:17

therefore I think what's you can imagine

45:20

your relationship to being a being to

45:22

Eight and and in some ways the

45:24

kinds of things that you can be

45:26

part of our create out of. it's

45:28

all of that is missing and in

45:30

the streaming ecosystem as we currently have

45:32

it. And you know

45:34

any doubt. I also want to

45:36

say there are still publications out

45:38

there. you know you could look,

45:40

It's stereo gum and complex and

45:43

Cedar and Rolling Stone is still

45:45

out there. and Band Camp and

45:47

the noticed the streaming independent sites

45:49

that also publishes music journalism Though

45:51

it's also been through some ownership

45:53

changes that put its future in

45:55

jeopardy. but yeah, I think that's

45:57

we're looking at this question of.

46:00

Can you get? can you can

46:02

get everything rich about music or

46:04

any kind of culture from tic

46:07

toc videos and you maybe there

46:09

was this? We can. I think

46:11

we should rule those things out,

46:13

but the right right early version

46:15

of it supplies a sense of

46:17

mine's touching in different ways that

46:19

I don't know if there's another

46:22

substitute for. Yeah. That's beautifully

46:24

put, Carl, And you know. Your

46:27

criticism is made this interesting balance

46:29

between the individual sensibility of the

46:31

critic and a conception of a

46:33

lot caught semi objective fact of

46:35

social power in some sense. Is.

46:38

This a moment to to step

46:40

back and say yes yes yes

46:43

border yes yes yes. You know

46:45

the A D uses a taste

46:47

distinctions to enforce various hierarchies. And

46:51

yet there is something to

46:53

the individual sensibility of the loan

46:55

rider confronting something with his

46:57

or her or their own ears

47:00

and communicating did alone reader

47:02

something you know, somewhat intimate and

47:04

none for it's Shirley implicated

47:06

in those structures of power. But

47:09

just comey south moments of

47:11

like of romantic heroism of

47:13

on behalf of fab of

47:15

the critics necessity. yeah I

47:17

realized I hope I've never.

47:20

Sounded. Like you know I think

47:22

that one of the things that talking about.

47:24

Popular culture and criticism allows us to

47:27

do is talk about sort of broader

47:29

social meanings. Pets That importance of is

47:31

that experience to us as individuals always

47:33

has to be balanced against that. And

47:35

and the other thing I wanted. I

47:37

think when we're talking about Pitchfork, that's

47:39

important to pay tribute. Here is also

47:42

that's the arguments is the sites. You

47:44

know that when Pitchfork was at it's

47:46

most contentious. You know I wouldn't say

47:48

in the been most recent years but

47:50

you know in the late two thousands

47:52

early to at twenty tens. That

47:55

was, you know people love to hate

47:57

it. I had a musician say to

47:59

me who to I ran into on

48:01

the street this week say save for

48:03

me It's like Margaret Thatcher died, he

48:05

set of books and and did you

48:07

know those that bitterness about those times

48:10

when Pitchfork could make or break people.

48:12

But like that since. That. Happens

48:14

when people are. It's to get

48:16

passionately angry at a critical outlets

48:18

and passionately moved by it. All

48:20

of those things are the senses

48:22

importance in a sense of of

48:24

the thing, counting and and I

48:27

don't think you ever you know.

48:29

As much as I advocated against

48:31

the sort of gratuitously mean review

48:33

and and especially the gratuitously mean

48:35

review that is more aimed at

48:37

insulting the imagined listenership of an

48:39

artist then the artist's work itself,

48:41

still at the same time, like.

48:44

You know, the the Pitchforks Had a call

48:46

him for a while called Why We Site

48:48

and I think that that's as much as

48:50

important part of criticism as anything and and

48:53

Pitchforks legacy definitely includes that. Go

48:55

for it will! coral Wilson's as the

48:57

music critic for Sleet and he cherished

48:59

friend of this program a C Fox

49:01

Karl I'm always great to talk to

49:03

any context. Please come back soon. I'll

49:05

be happy to any type. Reboot:

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49:11

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A I. Are.

50:09

Right now is the moment in our partners and we

50:12

endorse didn't know what do you have. I

50:14

been into as a nonfiction book that

50:16

I just started. I'm only on about

50:18

chapter four, but I can already tell

50:20

that it's gonna be great and it's

50:22

a book that came out last year.

50:24

Twenty Twenty Three: Cold Blooded The Machine

50:26

Ebrahim Merchants are the subtitle of the

50:28

book is the Origins of Rebellion Against

50:30

Big Tech. But the big Tech in

50:32

question is early nineteenth century technology. It's

50:34

a book about the Luddites and about

50:36

the missing breakers of the early nineteenth

50:39

century which was, you know, but basically

50:41

sort of. oh, and anti industrial revolution

50:43

and labor uprising in. In England's Around.

50:45

beginning around like eighteen, Ten Eighteen Eleven

50:47

and is is beautifully told. Brain Merchant

50:49

is a tech journalist who mainly writes

50:51

about modern tech, but his research seems

50:54

to me it really really meticulous and

50:56

he's basically going through and following a

50:58

few different stories are including this among

51:00

others that. Story of and Mary Shelley

51:03

and Prissy Be Shelley who are. Basically

51:06

sort of meeting and marrying right around this

51:08

time and writing a lot about revolution and

51:10

labor. But also telling the stories

51:12

of a child labor within the that

51:14

will an industry and just various people

51:17

involved in these luddite uprisings. In one

51:19

of the things I've already learned in

51:21

chapter one of the book is that

51:23

there was no Ned Lead. The disfigured

51:26

Ned Lead who was sort of the

51:28

the rallying cry for the Luddites is

51:30

a six and all robin Hood style

51:32

figure that they united around. so it's

51:34

a blooded to be seen by Brian

51:37

Merchant. It seems like it's gonna. Be

51:39

really smart, both about technology. uprisings,

51:42

Of our times and of the the

51:44

industrial revolution I figured in are two

51:46

ever put? Then I am. I you've

51:48

read it. I avoid and which halfway

51:50

through a bit of like the on my pile of

51:52

stuff I pick up every so often takes to make

51:54

some progress on. It should have a

51:56

degree in to do to what you learned and like high

51:59

school about the Luddites. That's very to degrade. Sort

52:01

of like listen, these people write an essay

52:03

or lose that are a little. They. Me

52:05

if you ever heard that word in high school.

52:07

But yeah, exactly. I mean that the author sort

52:09

of identifies as a luddite himself, and it seems

52:11

like I'm getting the sense that the luddites. Are

52:13

about to have a moment. He know because

52:15

we're in such an industrial revolution kind of

52:17

time ourselves. so am I. Think it's the

52:20

right book for this year. As

52:22

sounds amazing, I'm. Out

52:25

I'm literally gonna go out and get it to

52:27

the I'm Tamil Would you have. To. I

52:29

get a go to do a movie but I think I

52:31

think I'll do a book him in the spirit of

52:33

the in his recommendation bespoke one. It one

52:36

a big history price last year and

52:38

I don't remember which one but it

52:40

is Beverley Gauges book see man. Which.

52:43

Is a big biography of J. Edgar

52:45

Hoover. And. You may be thinking

52:47

what would be so interesting about reading a

52:49

big biography? It is big. It's a good

52:51

hundred pages it as it is ft the

52:53

big boy I'm of take a Hoover and

52:56

that is that. The man is utterly fascinating

52:58

and. Engage. Gives

53:01

Us gives you not just a

53:03

chronicle of his lies, On

53:05

which is incredibly consequential Jacob

53:07

who for without question maybe

53:09

be single most consequential bureaucrat

53:11

of the twentieth century. Maybe

53:14

one of the most consequential American political

53:16

pictures of the twentieth century, but also

53:18

she gives you such a feel for

53:21

the texture of Washington in the first

53:23

half of the twentieth century. What

53:26

it was like, what the society was

53:28

in that city I what it seems

53:30

to six inspected the nineteenth century. the

53:32

first. Three. Chapters of the Book of

53:34

Basis would have like a walkthrough of nineteenth

53:36

century Washington D C. as who versa is

53:38

he is a native Washingtonian. If I did

53:41

not know. And whose family

53:43

been there since more lessons beginning of the

53:45

eighteenth century. Ah ah, but

53:47

it's fascinating. I. You

53:49

know, the book obviously goes

53:52

into Hoover's relationship with his

53:54

longtime. Aide. Cli

53:56

Tolson. Ah, and bear it

53:58

is even even in that heart of the

54:00

book which is it and I did. It

54:02

gets a through line throughout the book So

54:04

far. I'm like. To.

54:06

There's the way through. I'm even there.

54:09

It's like if you're also getting a

54:11

bit of history of queerness in America,

54:13

ah, it's a it's a phenomenal block

54:16

Like it's It's really an accomplishment. Zola.

54:18

I only recommend that if you if

54:20

you're at all interested in American history

54:22

like broadly, this is totally worth. Checking.

54:25

Out. Oh My. God, I asked

54:27

you to. I'm tempted to make

54:29

up the title of some new

54:32

huge doorstop nonfiction book one ought

54:34

to go. He has the go

54:36

media really into one's bucket list.

54:38

Saw: No, I'm a graduate. Alley be

54:40

overloading the listener with this. I can be the

54:42

ones you have to do some little tiny meme.

54:44

Or something really minutes or excel at

54:47

it it up. I was thinking about

54:49

doing a song. I mean you know,

54:51

but dumb know? I am proud of

54:53

my endorsement and I stick with it.

54:55

I endorse my endorsement which is a

54:57

it's actually to book reviews I think.

55:00

One. Is. Tends to try

55:02

to balance out a degree of

55:04

coldness with the degree of seat

55:06

when one writes anything I eat

55:08

analytic. Precision and I'm a

55:10

degree of Iraqi oil or Pass And

55:12

maybe for lack of a better word,

55:15

especially if you're like me. Left.

55:17

Or leftists and you don't want one

55:19

to overwhelm the other on a month.

55:21

So I found the kind of wonderful

55:24

yin and yang in these two reviews

55:26

Of each one is about the Walter

55:28

Isaacson You On Musk biography and I

55:30

admired them both so much I wanted

55:32

to email and probably will email of

55:35

fan letter to each of the the

55:37

the authors. The first is. It

55:40

won't shock you The more sort of sober

55:42

and slightly dryer of the to appears in

55:44

the New York Review of Books on it's

55:47

not overly sober dry at all to pity

55:49

on exemplary piece of writing by been torn

55:51

off who himself works in the tech industry

55:53

there knows it from the inside but writes

55:56

about it with as much sort of slashing

55:58

polemical vigorous anybody. When

56:00

his pieces called ultra hardcore and

56:03

it gets just that the essence

56:05

of nerd. Roof

56:07

Like why the world increasingly resembles

56:09

a nerds revenge fantasies through the

56:11

figure of Mosque and Isaac. Since

56:13

biography that's far more Iraqi learn

56:15

than openly polemical one is in

56:18

The Point magazine by on someone

56:20

who has Bolland I don't know

56:22

but and and now trying to

56:24

read more by him. Same Chris

56:26

it's spelled K R I S

56:28

as he strikes me as being

56:31

in the I'm Tom Skulk a

56:33

model of. A kind

56:35

of polymath eric ability to

56:37

bring. Wildly far

56:40

flung things together into a

56:42

single strand of argument and

56:44

then we'll that into weapon

56:46

as almost the chosen targets

56:48

are into submission and. Is

56:51

opening line. From the opening line, he just

56:53

grabs you. I know that I'm supposed to

56:55

hate Elon musk and or he in fact

56:57

ends up. Paying. Very little relative

56:59

attention to mosque and going after

57:01

Isaacson as like the chief plutocrats

57:03

look spittle of America in with

57:05

his through just so savage and

57:08

so funny. Ah and not one

57:10

is called very ordinary men. are

57:12

you on Mosque in the court

57:14

biographer so willing to both of

57:16

those, but they both absolutely delighted

57:18

and instructed me. A highly recommended.

57:23

Smell. Thank you so much for coming on!

57:25

The show is oh he's He's huge, Huge pleasure and

57:27

I was. Trying

57:30

to have. You back soon. Always

57:32

happy to be her. The pleasure

57:34

is mine. Excellence and that Dana

57:36

another phone one in the books

57:39

here yet not sound the belts

57:41

yeah that was in Iceland or

57:43

you'll find links to some the

57:45

things we talked about the data

57:47

show page that sleep.com/controversy now as

57:49

a culture best at slate.com or

57:51

interrupting music composer Nicholas Patel, a

57:53

production assistant this Cat Hong or

57:56

producers Cameron Druze for them, Elbulli

57:58

and decisions on even though. So

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