0:00

Hey, Mike here. I just wanted to

0:02

let you know that you can listen

0:04

to Dark Poutine early and ad free

0:06

on Amazon Music, included with Prime. Welcome

0:19

back to Dark Poutine. I am

0:21

Mike Brown. And I'm

0:23

Matthew Stockton. We're coming at you

0:25

from British Columbia. The

0:27

B.C. Yeah, the the left

0:30

coast. The left coast? Yeah.

0:33

It's very very sunny today and I'm

0:36

wondering when it's going to properly start

0:38

warming up. It seems like it's been

0:40

cold for a long time now, Mike.

0:42

A little chillier than it was last

0:45

year this time, that's for sure. But

0:47

you know what? I'm good with

0:49

it. I have to put on my

0:51

little yoga jacket and go outside. I

0:54

should probably start doing yoga if I have

0:56

a jacket. It's so B.C. to have a

0:58

yoga jacket. You're right. Oh

1:02

dear. Okay. In

1:09

the mid-century Winnipeg expanded its

1:11

boundaries and solidified its status

1:14

by creating Unicity in 1972,

1:17

streamlining governance and urban planning. By

1:19

1981, Winnipeg

1:22

was known for its cultural

1:24

diversity and as

1:26

a regional economic hub, setting the

1:29

stage for future developments. The

1:31

Peg! The Peg. Yeah, I think

1:33

we discussed this before, but I

1:35

love this story. It used to

1:37

colloquially be called Chicago of the

1:39

North because, believe it

1:42

or not, the turn of the century Chicago

1:44

and Winnipeg were actual rivals. Before

1:47

World War I, Winnipeg was actually the fastest-growing

1:49

city in North America. By 1911, it

1:53

was the third largest city in Canada.

1:55

Winnipeg, like Chicago, was an

1:57

international Finance, industry, and transport.

2:00

British and hub. I mean it's

2:02

hard if you've gone there now.

2:04

it's hard to believe that. see

2:06

and but for late eighteen hundreds

2:08

too early nineteen hundreds Chicago architects

2:10

came to win a peg to

2:12

practice their art and many that

2:14

the buildings they designed and in

2:16

the exchanged district for from Chicago

2:18

architects and of course that style

2:20

influenced local architects to the city

2:23

started looking like Chicago. It's very

2:25

cool stuff on that's funny so

2:27

I wonder if they were building

2:29

for wind. Because isn't as sick as

2:31

yeah? How about the windy city And when

2:33

and windy and Co and so is so

2:35

as winter pag And yet example Enter page.

2:38

So before we get started but

2:40

the show Matthew you mentioned to

2:42

me. That. He wanted to

2:44

do at a special shout out

2:47

Yeah! So Stephen our on the

2:49

Aqua bus oh as as you

2:51

are usually as we are and

2:53

says start a conversation with somebody

2:55

who listens to the south oh

2:57

did she recognize you are be

2:59

at the So I said to

3:01

Jenny add set out and say

3:04

hi Yeah and a Journey told

3:06

me that some at one point

3:08

in time she's having chemotherapy and

3:10

television visuals made her feel booze

3:12

is so. Dark Putin was one

3:14

of her favorite says that she's listen

3:16

to while she's doing chemo and I

3:18

love when I meet people. Who

3:21

tell us? A

3:24

that they listen because I'm always grateful

3:26

but dirty that we were. There.

3:28

During a hard time. You meet all

3:30

kinds of people are listen I made up

3:32

that I don't meet anybody has because I

3:35

talked to everybody may I doubt I'd I

3:37

don't leave the house even one of the

3:39

Captains of the Pharaohs site by the time

3:41

we go from one.to the next you have

3:43

like five new best friends for on the

3:45

boat with. An

3:48

issue said that to me. Well.

3:50

Thanks. Jenny for listening

3:52

B S much appreciated the

3:55

views, information and opinions expressed

3:57

during the Dark Preteen Podcast.

4:00

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4:02

producer and do not necessarily

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dark poutine is not for the faint

4:17

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strongly advised we're not experts on the

4:21

topics we present nor are we journalists

4:24

we're two ordinary Canadians chatting about crime

4:26

in the dark side of history let's

4:29

get to it put on your

4:31

to grab yourself a double double and

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an enymo bar it's time to scarf

4:36

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4:38

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some will miss an empathy if you don't think dark

4:57

poutine is for you you

5:42

Barbara gale Stoppel a 16

5:44

year old waitress working alone

5:46

was tragically murdered on December

5:48

23rd 1981 in the women's

5:51

washroom of ideal donut shop

5:53

in Winnipeg Manitoba she

5:55

was strangled with a twine and

5:57

despite being found alive she succumbs

6:00

to that and her other injuries after six

6:02

days on life support. The

6:05

murder case quickly became notorious not

6:07

only due to its brutal nature

6:09

but also because of the wrongful

6:11

conviction of Thomas Softenow who was

6:13

initially accused of the crime. Softenow

6:16

underwent three separate trials. The first ended

6:18

with a hung jury and the second

6:20

and third led to convictions ultimately overturned

6:23

by the Manitoba Court of Appeal. The

6:26

Supreme Court of Canada refused to hear

6:29

a Crown Appeal leading to Softenow's final

6:31

acquittal. This case is

6:33

frequently cited as a significant

6:35

example of a miscarriage of

6:38

justice involving flawed eyewitness identifications

6:40

and police misconduct during the

6:42

interrogation process. Despite

6:45

Softenow's exoneration, the actual perpetrator

6:47

remained at large until a

6:49

re-investigation of the case pointed

6:51

to another suspect, Terry Samuel

6:53

Arnold, who was already known

6:55

to police for similar offenses.

6:58

Having left a trail of depravity,

7:00

sexual assaults and suspected murder in

7:02

his wake, this revelation came too

7:05

late to be pursued thoroughly as

7:07

Arnold died by suicide in 2005.

7:11

The impact of this case has

7:13

been profound leading to public scrutiny

7:15

over police procedures and the reliability

7:17

of witness testimony. It

7:19

has also been the subject of several

7:22

books and a public inquiry which sought

7:24

to prevent such injustices in the future.

7:27

This is Dark Poutine Episode 315, More Than Meets

7:29

the Eye, the murder of Barbara

7:31

Stoffel. Winnipeg,

7:42

the capital of Manitoba, has a rich

7:44

history shaped by its strategic location at

7:46

the confluence of the Red and Assiniboine

7:49

Rivers. Originally a key gathering

7:51

place for indigenous peoples, it became a

7:53

central hub for European fur traders in

7:55

the late 17th century. establishing

8:00

the Red River Colony in 1812 and

8:03

subsequent settlement. The arrival

8:05

of the Canadian Pacific Railway in

8:08

the 1880s spurred a population and

8:10

construction boom transforming Winnipeg into a

8:12

significant transportation and economic centre known

8:14

as the Gateway to the West.

8:17

The early 20th century marked the Winnipeg

8:20

General Strike of 1919 reflecting social and

8:23

economic challenges. In

8:26

the mid-century, Winnipeg expanded its

8:28

boundaries and solidified its status

8:30

by creating Unicity in 1972,

8:32

streamlining governance and urban planning.

8:37

By 1981, Winnipeg was known

8:39

for its cultural diversity and as

8:41

a regional economic hub, setting the

8:43

stage for future developments. The

8:46

Peg! The Peg! Yeah, I think we

8:48

discussed this before, but I love this

8:50

story. It used to colloquially be called

8:53

Chicago of the North because believe it

8:55

or not, the turn of the century,

8:57

Chicago and Winnipeg were actual rivals. Before

9:01

World War I, Winnipeg was actually the fastest-growing

9:03

city in North America. By

9:06

1911, it was the third largest

9:08

city in Canada. Winnipeg, like Chicago,

9:11

was an international finance industry and

9:13

transportation hub. I mean, it's hard,

9:15

if you've gone there now, it's hard to

9:18

believe that. But

9:21

from the late 1800s to early 1900s,

9:23

Chicago architects came to Winnipeg to practice

9:25

their art. The

9:28

buildings they designed in the

9:30

Exchange District are from Chicago

9:32

architects. Of course, that style

9:34

influenced local architects, so

9:37

the city started looking like

9:39

Chicago. It's a very cool story. Well, that's

9:41

fun. I wonder if they

9:43

were building for wind because isn't this

9:45

Chicago, the windy city? Windy

9:47

and coal, and so is Winterpeg.

9:50

Yeah, exactly. investigation

10:00

titled Stoppel gives more insight

10:02

into Barbara Stoppel's short life.

10:05

Barbara Gail, Barb, Stoppel born on

10:07

August 9, 1965 in Winnipeg, was

10:10

the youngest in a family of

10:12

three children to Muriel and Fred

10:14

Stoppel, residing in Norwood Flats. At

10:17

the time of her death she was the only sibling

10:19

still at home, with her older brother Rick, 23, and

10:22

sister Roxanne married and living elsewhere

10:24

in Winnipeg. At 16

10:27

years old, Barb was a grade

10:29

10 student at Nelson McIntyre Collegiate

10:31

where she excelled academically and participated

10:34

actively in volleyball and basketball. Barb

10:37

also pursued her passions for roller

10:39

skating at Saints Roller Rink and

10:41

acting, recently earning the lead role

10:43

in her school's annual play and

10:45

then there were none. Her involvement

10:47

in sports and the arts enhanced

10:49

her social life where she was

10:52

recognized for her kindness, friendliness, and

10:54

maturity, often connecting with friends older

10:56

than herself. Many

10:58

believe Barb had the potential to become

11:00

a successful actress, the goal supported

11:02

by her studies at the Manitoba

11:04

Theatre Workshop. As Christmas

11:08

1981 approached Barb excitedly shopped for the

11:10

holiday. She had recently obtained

11:12

part-time employment as a waitress at

11:14

the ideal donut shop on 49

11:16

Goulet Street near her home to

11:19

earn spending money and feel more

11:21

independent. She was

11:23

comfortable with customer conversations and

11:25

demonstrated a confident yet caring

11:27

nature. She was charismatic

11:29

and lovely and quickly became a

11:32

favorite among the donut shop's patrons.

11:35

She was a great co-worker too,

11:37

amenable to shift changes to accommodate

11:39

others and working extra hours if

11:41

needed. She had

11:43

carefully selected Christmas gifts for her family

11:45

and friends including a salt and pepper

11:47

shaker's candles, spices, and rubix cubes which

11:50

she had delivered to her friend Jody

11:52

on December 22.

11:54

Her thoughtful list of presents for her family included stockings

11:56

and a dog calendar for her grandmother, hydrants, and

11:58

a dog calendar for her grandmother. for

12:01

her mom, jams for her dad, a

12:03

cat calendar and London, Iowa teas for

12:05

her brother Rick and his wife Beth,

12:08

and a bird-related gift for sister Roxy and

12:10

her hubby Dave. She picked out a football

12:13

jersey for Daryl, her new boyfriend whom she'd

12:15

met at a party, and they'd been dating

12:17

for just about a month. Sure,

12:20

Barb did all the typical teenage stuff

12:22

like neglecting her chores for which she'd

12:24

been grounded. However, everyone who knew Barb

12:26

Stoppel thought she was going places and

12:28

that her future looked brighter than most

12:32

until the night of December 23rd, 1981. Yeah,

12:36

Mike, it never changes. Whenever we

12:38

dig into the story and

12:40

find out about the person who was murdered, it's

12:43

always the same when I first read the scripts

12:45

that you send me. Yeah, I actually want to

12:47

stop the script almost like I can go back

12:49

in time and write a different story for her.

12:53

And then she locked the door on this

12:55

creepy guy and it never happened. Yeah, at

12:57

the end, Mike and I didn't need to

12:59

do the podcast. Right

13:02

now our listeners are listening to the story

13:04

of someone they didn't know, maybe some

13:06

people didn't know her, but the majority of

13:08

our listeners didn't. But

13:11

you look at her, she was a great kid,

13:13

she was loved. She

13:15

was an individual person, but in a way

13:17

she is us, isn't she? She

13:20

could have been any of us, hardworking, normal

13:22

people, and that's the only time I'm ever

13:24

going to call myself normal, but you know

13:26

what I mean? And

13:30

when you really start empathizing

13:32

and understanding that this is a human

13:34

being that had so much ahead of her, you'd

13:36

realize how much of a total tragedy it

13:39

was even though we've never met her. And

13:42

not just for our friends and family, but

13:44

for all of us really. I

13:47

always wish I could change these

13:49

stories. Yeah, me too. was

14:00

dressed and ready for work out the back

14:02

door of the Stoppel family's Ferndale Avenue home

14:04

saying goodbye to her mother for what would

14:07

be the last time. Vladimir

14:09

Ududek, the owner of Ideal Donut

14:11

Shops, was in the shop that

14:13

night to give Barbara Stoppel her

14:15

pay. He withdrew some cash from the register

14:17

and left $33 in it. A

14:20

regular customer was already in the store

14:23

as Ududek entered and the patron had

14:25

finished up and gone by the time

14:27

Mr. Ududek left around 8.10pm.

14:30

Shortly after, Barbara Stoppel is

14:32

known to have made a brief phone call to a

14:35

friend. Barb planned to attend

14:37

two parties with friends after her shift. Barb,

14:40

now alone, went about prepping for the

14:42

store closing. Working

14:47

at the Boots Drugstore in the

14:49

Dominion Shopping Centre, Lorraine Janauer walked

14:52

to the nearby Ideal Donut Shop

14:54

to buy coffee only minutes after

14:56

Mr. Ududek departed. She

14:59

noticed a man she didn't recognize

15:01

inside locking the front door, which

15:03

she found odd. The man

15:05

looked out of place. He was

15:07

a white man in his early

15:09

twenties with notable acne, unkempt brown

15:12

hair, a long mustache and sideburns.

15:14

He was dressed distinctively in a cowboy

15:17

hat, brown boots, tight jeans, a plaid

15:19

shirt and a dark jacket

15:21

with possible yellow stripes. Lorraine

15:24

saw the man and the waitress we now

15:26

know was Barb, walked to the rear of

15:29

the shop and entered the women's washroom together.

15:32

Concerned, Lorraine returned to work and

15:34

with the help of a coworker

15:36

tried to contact Mr. Ududek and

15:38

then the donut shop directly but

15:40

received no answers, heightening her alarm.

15:44

Around 8.30pm, Norman Janauer, Lorraine's

15:46

husband arrived at the drugstore to

15:48

pick her up from work. She

15:51

informed him about the suspicious activity

15:53

she'd witnessed at the donut shop

15:55

and Norman agreed to look into

15:57

it. John Dirksen attempted to visit

15:59

the Ideal donut shop at around 8.35 p.m.

16:02

but found the front door locked and the

16:04

shop apparently empty. Dirksen was

16:06

wearing a snow suit as he had

16:08

been outside all evening selling Christmas trees

16:10

in the shopping center's parking lot. He

16:13

wanted a cup of coffee to warm up before

16:15

heading home for the evening. After

16:17

waiting outside for about five minutes,

16:20

Norman Janauer joined him. Dirksen

16:22

and Janauer then saw the man in

16:25

the cowboy hat coming out of the

16:27

women's washroom and walking toward the front

16:29

door. The stranger was carrying a small

16:31

cardboard box. The man unlocked the door

16:34

telling Dirksen and Janauer not to bother

16:36

going inside. The store was closed he

16:38

said. The man then ran past

16:40

the McDonald's toward the Norwood Bridge.

16:43

Entering the donut shop and finding no response

16:45

when he called out, Mr. Janauer proceeded to

16:48

the back. He opened the

16:50

women's washroom door and discovered Barbara Stoppel

16:52

collapsed on the floor, twine around her

16:54

neck, blood splashed onto the wall

16:57

beside her. Mr. Janauer was

16:59

convinced the man in the cowboy hat

17:01

was responsible. Norman called out

17:03

to John Dirksen to chase after the stranger.

17:06

Janauer then returned to the drugstore and

17:08

immediately instructed his wife to call the

17:10

police and an ambulance. Dirksen

17:14

grabbed a baseball bat from the nearby

17:16

Domo gas station and pursued the man.

17:19

He managed to catch up with him part

17:21

way across the bridge where a confrontation ensued.

17:24

As the man brandished a knife,

17:26

Dirksen wisely retreated. Dirksen

17:29

later recalled that he had observed the

17:31

man tossing the cardboard box off the

17:33

bridge. When Dirksen went

17:35

back to the shopping center, he saw the

17:37

police cars were already there. Somewhat

17:39

in shock and not wanting to be in

17:41

the way, Dirksen went home and drank a

17:43

few beers. He didn't speak to

17:46

the police for the first time after the

17:48

incident until he called the hospital later that

17:50

night to ask about Barb Stoppel. shopping

18:00

center around 8.25pm. His

18:02

truck was positioned so that he could

18:04

see in the ideal donut shop. While

18:06

his wife visited the Boots Drugstore, he

18:09

stayed in his truck and noticed the

18:11

man inside the donut shop conversing with

18:13

the waitress. He watched as the

18:15

parent's side engaged in a brief conversation then proceeded

18:17

to the back of the shop led by the

18:20

man. After a while, they continued

18:22

talking at the rear of the shop and

18:24

then the man returned to the front to

18:26

lock the door. Both then

18:28

entered the ladies washroom. Following

18:31

this, McDougal went to speak with

18:33

Lorraine Janauer in the drugstore before

18:35

returning to his truck. He continued

18:38

to monitor the donut shop without

18:40

noticing further developments and then

18:42

reported the suspicious behavior to the manager

18:44

of G&T Television in front of which

18:46

he was parked. Together, they

18:48

watched as the man exited the

18:50

washroom, switched the open

18:52

close sign to closed, unlocked

18:54

the door, and hurriedly left

18:57

the shop carrying a brown

18:59

cardboard box, passing John Dirksen

19:01

and Norman Janauer running past

19:03

McDonald's and toward the bridge.

19:05

That same evening at around 8.45pm,

19:09

as Marcel Glue drove over the Norwood

19:11

Bridge, he observed a man at the

19:13

side of the bridge discarding items into

19:16

the river below. He also

19:18

noticed another man, John Dirksen, dressed in

19:20

a snowmobile suit and wielding a baseball

19:22

bat running toward the first man on

19:25

the bridge. Constable

19:42

Gary Schmidt, a rookie officer, was one of

19:44

the first on the scene. After

19:46

being directed inside ideal donut, he

19:49

found Barb unconscious and lying on

19:51

her back in the women's bathroom

19:53

in an unusual position. Her

19:56

head was tilted and pressed against the

19:58

wall, her legs fully extended toward the

20:00

toilet and her left arm was

20:02

trapped underneath her body. Her

20:04

face and hands displayed a

20:06

purplish discoloration indicating a lack

20:08

of oxygen. Additionally,

20:10

there were minor bloodstains on the

20:12

south wall about four inches above

20:14

the floor and traces of blood

20:16

around her mouth and teeth. Upon

20:20

checking her pulse, the officer discovered

20:22

a green and yellow nylon twine

20:24

wrapped tightly around her neck which

20:26

had not been initially visible to

20:28

those who found her. Schmidt

20:31

quickly removed the twine and placed it on

20:33

the bathroom sink. The ambulance

20:35

arrived moments later and Barb Stoppel

20:37

was whisked off to nearby St.

20:39

Boniface Hospital where doctors tried to

20:41

save her life. The

20:44

women's washroom at the ideal donut shop

20:46

displayed signs of a struggle with small

20:48

bloodstains on the floor, south wall and

20:50

sink. There was also

20:52

an overturned waste basket with its

20:54

contents scattered. When Mr.

20:56

Ududik, the owner, arrived and checked

20:59

the cash register, he discovered that

21:01

the $33 he'd left that evening was

21:03

missing. However, there was $24.75 remaining

21:08

in Barb's purse. Perhaps the

21:10

theft of the money in the cash register

21:12

was an afterthought to cover up the true

21:15

motive for the crime, sexual

21:17

assault. During their investigation, police found

21:19

several items under the bridge directly

21:22

beneath where the altercation with the

21:24

suspect happened. These items

21:26

included a green and yellow nylon

21:29

rope identical to that used to

21:31

strangle Barb Stoppel and the small

21:33

cardboard box. Additionally, footprints

21:35

leading from the bridge to the

21:38

railway tracks indicated the suspect's path,

21:40

although further tracking was hindered by

21:42

snow and recent footprints from railroad

21:45

employees. Police also recovered

21:47

two pairs of gloves, one tan leather,

21:50

and one black and white woven,

21:52

with the latter entwined with the

21:54

crime-related nylon rope. Barb Stoppel

21:56

tragically passed away on December 29th

21:58

after her murder. mother kept

22:00

vigil by her hospital bedside throughout

22:03

Christmas, the cause of

22:05

Barbara's death was determined to be

22:07

strangulation. It's so close

22:09

to saving her. It's such a shame.

22:11

We don't often, again, this story, you

22:13

know, we don't often see people going

22:15

to the hospital and then dying in

22:18

our shows. No, they're usually passed away.

22:20

For her family and friends to have

22:22

that hope and to lose it would

22:25

have been devastating and I almost wonder

22:27

what's better. You know, it's maybe

22:29

they had an opportunity to say goodbye in a way.

22:31

I don't know. You know, it's

22:34

just devastating. And the fact that

22:36

it happened over the holidays, you

22:38

know, like Merry Christmas. So every

22:40

year at Christmas they're reminded of

22:43

this. Just horrible. Yeah. Again,

22:45

the eyewitnesses consistently described the man seen

22:47

at the donut shop as a 21

22:49

to 30 year old male with brown

22:53

hair, possibly a reddish hue and

22:55

a scruffy appearance, including

22:57

scraggly sideburns and noticeable acne pock

22:59

marks on the left side of

23:01

his face. He sported a

23:04

longish mustache and was tall between 6'1 and

23:06

6'3 with a slim build and weighed

23:09

between 145 and 185 pounds. His attire included prescription glasses,

23:11

a black

23:16

or dark cowboy hat and

23:18

a dark waist length coat, blue

23:21

jeans and round toed or cowboy

23:23

boots. He may have been

23:25

wearing black or white work gloves, tan

23:27

leather gloves and a ring on his

23:30

left finger. Based

23:32

on these descriptions, a composite drawing

23:34

was created by a police artist

23:36

and circulated throughout the media. This,

23:39

along with an $8,500 reward offered by the Winnipeg police,

23:44

led to the WPS receiving over 700

23:47

tips about potential suspects. Every tip

23:49

would need to be run down

23:51

by the police force under intense

23:53

public and media pressure to solve

23:55

the case. The twine

23:57

used in the crime was tracked back.

24:00

to Powers Twine in Everson, Washington

24:02

and apparently had been sold in

24:04

the Vancouver area to BC Hydro.

24:06

This led Winnipeg police to believe

24:09

the murderer had ties to British

24:11

Columbia. So they began

24:13

to focus on potential suspects with that

24:16

in mind. We'll be back

24:18

after a quick break. If

24:24

you're looking for a smoking gun I can absolutely

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guarantee you you will In

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October 2001 a series of letters filled

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with a deadly powder called anthrax were

24:35

dropped into the US mail system. What

24:37

started as an unprecedented case turned into

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an unsettling mystery. Who sent

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these deadly letters and why? From

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Campside Media and Sony Music Entertainment

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I'm Josh Dean and this is

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www.windhamhotels.com And

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we are back Matthew thought so far.

25:35

Well at this point I was really

25:37

interested to hear the rest of the

25:39

story and how how with so many

25:41

witnesses right? Right. And witnesses

25:44

that just didn't see oh there is

25:46

somebody in a balaclava running away I

25:48

saw from 45 feet. Yeah they got

25:50

a good look at him. They spoke

25:52

with him. They fought him on a

25:55

bridge right? Yep. With that many proper

25:57

witnesses how the wrong person could have

25:59

been convicted. of the crime. And

26:01

I'm looking forward to digging into the

26:03

flaws in eyewitness testimony here. Yeah. Investigators

26:06

became aware of Thomas Safenau.

26:09

Thomas Safenau resembled the suspect described

26:11

by the witnesses who'd seen Barb's

26:13

killer. He was tall, 6 foot

26:16

4 inches, in the proper weight range,

26:18

wearing glasses, similar facial hair of Fu

26:21

Man Chu mustache. He was from

26:23

BC and he'd been in Winnipeg at the time of

26:25

the murder. Cops learned that there

26:27

was a stressor too. Safenau

26:29

had been in town to see his daughter

26:31

but had been denied that by his ex,

26:33

the girl's mother. So according

26:36

to studies in criminology, family-related

26:38

stressors contribute significantly to violent

26:40

crime by inducing psychological distress

26:43

and emotional turmoil. Conflicts

26:45

like domestic abuse, divorce, or

26:47

custody disputes, as in

26:49

this case, provoke intense emotions which may

26:52

lead to violent responses by some people.

26:55

Eyewitnesses identified Thomas

26:57

Safenau as the man they

27:00

had seen at Ideal Donut

27:02

by way of photo and

27:04

in-person police lineups. So, question

27:07

for you that you might not be able to answer first of all,

27:10

was it all the witnesses that did

27:12

this? Do you know how many? All

27:14

of the close witnesses. Interesting. Yeah, it's

27:16

very strange. And you know what, listen,

27:18

I'm not, obviously they

27:20

were wrong because you start, you

27:23

know, we tell the story that they got the wrong guy. But

27:26

I'm not giving a hard time

27:28

to people who were witnesses because

27:30

of how the human mind works,

27:32

right? Our memories are way more

27:34

fallible than we think they are.

27:36

Yep, and it's why I call the

27:39

episode more than meets the eye. Yeah,

27:41

yeah. And so, you know, and I'm

27:43

sure that all of those witnesses thought

27:45

they'd seen that guy,

27:48

right? And who knows how the police prepared

27:50

them at that point in time. We know

27:52

one of these people in this lineup is

27:54

the guy, you know? Yeah,

27:56

and also our memories are

27:58

bad. They were Really are made Us

28:01

I could even remember reflects like when

28:03

I did yesterday. And well, I had

28:05

to go through a photo lineup once

28:07

in my life to pick out the

28:09

gentleman who had tried to abduct me

28:11

and do nefarious, nasty things. And

28:14

of the photo lineup I was

28:16

given was photos of him now.

28:18

Yeah. Which you know, That's.

28:21

It That's kind of a different thing.

28:23

Oh yeah, totally. but of it speaks to

28:25

the nature of memory as well. Other

28:27

than being in a serious accident, his facial

28:29

features wouldn't have changed that much. So.

28:32

He was there, I just couldn't recall

28:34

at the picture of him that I

28:36

had in my mind did not reflect

28:38

the pictures that I was shown. However,

28:40

later on I recalled wait a minute

28:42

this guy had a weird haircut and

28:44

one of those people in that lineup.

28:47

Had a strange haircut. I just was left

28:49

long enough with the photos to remember that

28:51

detail. In

28:56

a police interviewed Thomas Soften our admitted

28:58

that he arrived from Vancouver laid on

29:01

the twenty second of December or early

29:03

on the Twenty Third. He'd. Spent

29:05

a few hours sleeping in a vacant apartment.

29:07

Before. Searching for a friend he couldn't

29:09

find. He. Visited his brother and

29:12

sister in law the Klein's from three

29:14

to five pm. And tried

29:16

to arrange a visit with his

29:18

daughter around five thirty pm, which

29:20

was unsuccessful. Later. He experienced

29:22

break trouble and went to a Canadian

29:25

Tire on the Pembina Highway where he

29:27

interacted with Mrs. Peace Good and her

29:29

daughter and then buy gifts at a

29:32

nearby Safeway. Despite an alibi confirmed by

29:34

the Klein's there was suspicion around Soften

29:36

Our due to his admission of possibly

29:38

being nearby the coffee shop. Where.

29:41

Barbara Stoffel was murdered between eight

29:43

and nine pm. He

29:45

was interviewed twice by police,

29:47

but these interviews where neither

29:50

recorded nor detailed in verbatim

29:52

notes obscuring what transpired. And

29:54

you read the inquiry notes,

29:56

it's really bad Mrs. Really,

29:59

really bad. Anyway,

30:01

during his second interview,

30:03

Thomas experienced highly aggressive

30:05

and now deemed unacceptable

30:08

interrogation techniques. including.

30:10

A strip search. And an

30:12

unnecessary anal cavity search. This.

30:15

Intense and invasive interrogation was

30:17

so traumatic that Thomas himself

30:19

became convinced that he murdered

30:22

Barbara despite being impossible. Thomas

30:25

was arrested and placed in a

30:27

lock up where an undercover officer

30:29

was positioned nearby hoping Thomas would

30:32

confess. However, Thomas did not confess.

30:34

But. He did demonstrate how the

30:36

donut shops door was locked, suggesting

30:39

the police had shown him this

30:41

during questioning. As he

30:43

has an alibi proving his innocence so.

30:46

Yeah, they showed him how the door lock

30:48

and unlock but. Be. Undercover officer

30:50

said well maybe he remembered that. Anyway,

30:52

you know, so it was like evidence

30:54

that shouldn't have been evident. The i

30:56

mean that the treatment of this coast

30:58

outrageous and very much in a fleet.

31:00

The outrageous. And if he. Can't

31:02

see that this. But

31:05

also. There's

31:08

only. There's not many ways he

31:10

can lock the door. it seem like it's

31:12

a little evidence like you turn though to

31:15

it might have locked in a certain way.

31:17

Who knows Arca, But you know there are

31:19

people who would argue with you that would

31:21

say hey, you know what? This guy allegedly

31:24

killed a sixteen year old girl so they

31:26

should treat him terribly anyway. and I'm kind

31:28

of glad they're not the people doing the

31:31

interrogations are making the laws, but that's what

31:33

people say that you know they will say

31:35

do whatever you need to do to get

31:37

it out of this guy. Began with

31:40

would you have voted for Stalin? That Because

31:42

that's where it ends up. Me right? Lisa.

31:44

Additionally, a key piece of physical evidence

31:47

linking Thomas to the crime was that

31:49

piece of twine used to strangle Barbara

31:51

found near the crime scene. This.

31:54

twine according to witnesses was discarded

31:56

by the killer to companies were

31:58

considered as possible sources of the

32:01

twine. Powers Twine identified it as

32:03

their product whereas Berkeley, which added

32:05

a tracer to their twine, did

32:07

not. A critical $100 test to detect the

32:09

tracer was inexplicably

32:13

never conducted. This

32:15

test could have identified the

32:17

twine as Berkeley's potentially exonerating

32:19

Thomas early on by placing

32:21

the source of the twine

32:24

locally in Portage La Prairie

32:26

rather than associating it with

32:28

Thomas in Vancouver. This oversight

32:30

contributed significantly to the wrongful

32:32

suspicion and stigma Thomas endured

32:34

for years. Thomas

32:37

was tried three times for a murder he

32:39

did not commit. His first trial

32:41

started on October 18, 1982 but ended

32:45

in a mistrial due to the

32:47

jury's inability to reach a unanimous

32:49

verdict. His second trial

32:51

began on February 21, 1983

32:55

resulting in a conviction later overturned

32:57

by the Manitoba Court of Appeal

32:59

due to inadequate presentation of his

33:01

defense. Thomas' third trial in

33:03

1985 also

33:05

concluded with a conviction again

33:07

overturned by the Appeal Court

33:09

citing unfairness. Ultimately he

33:11

was acquitted in December 1985 after

33:15

spending nearly four years in custody. Despite

33:18

his acquittal Thomas faced significant social

33:20

stigma and threats to his safety.

33:23

After years of effort to clear his name on June

33:25

8, 2000,

33:28

fifteen years later the Winnipeg Police

33:30

Service officially stated that he was

33:32

not responsible for the murder. The

33:35

Attorney General of Manitoba formally apologized

33:37

and a commission of inquiry led

33:40

by retired Supreme Court Justice Peter

33:42

Corey was established to

33:44

investigate the miscarriage of justice. During

33:47

the inquiry into his wrongful conviction Thomas

33:49

Softenow revealed the profound impact his experience

33:51

had on him. He frequently displayed anger

33:54

towards his legal team and the legal

33:56

system dismissing several lawyers after he was

33:58

a victim of the murder. warned that

34:01

his own directives would be obstructive. Sophonow

34:04

shared his harrowing experiences candidly,

34:06

including the emotional and psychological

34:08

toll of being ostracized by

34:11

his community and incarcerated in

34:13

a harsh prison environment. He

34:16

was often moved to tears when

34:18

discussing his time in segregation and

34:20

the stress-related health issues he faced.

34:22

Furthermore, the personal repercussions extended

34:25

to his family. His

34:27

house was firebombed and he recounted a

34:29

poignant moment when his daughter, having seen

34:31

a news clip about the crime, asked

34:34

him if he was a murderer. These

34:37

experiences left him deeply scarred.

34:39

No kidding. And the

34:42

people that you mentioned about it, people would say,

34:44

do whatever you treat them whatever way you want

34:47

to. Those are probably

34:49

also the types of people that

34:51

were firebombing an innocent man's house.

34:54

And that's the crux of the issue, right? And

34:57

we have social media now so often. You and

34:59

I have spoken about this, right? And

35:02

I think you've actually had to, even

35:04

on our own social feed,

35:06

sort of get

35:08

rid of stuff where people come in saying,

35:10

I know this person did it, right? It's

35:13

like, well, you know what? You actually don't

35:15

know that. You Googled something, you saw some

35:17

memes in some other posts. I

35:20

suggest you stick to your day job. Right.

35:23

Right. And they

35:25

think they listen to a true crime podcast

35:27

like the one that we are doing right

35:29

now. And they think that's

35:32

the be all and end all. That's why

35:34

I do the disclaimer at the beginning. We're

35:36

not journalists. We're not lawyers. We're not anything

35:39

to do with the law. We're

35:41

just telling a story. You

35:43

know, that's we're telling a story and

35:45

we're not even sure entirely whether or

35:47

not these facts are correct. We're only

35:50

involved with the law of awesomeness, Mike.

35:52

Okay. Oh,

35:56

boy. The

35:58

inquiry's findings. released on November 5, 2001,

36:02

highlighted severe flaws in police procedures

36:04

and the judicial system, including the

36:07

use of unreliable witness testimony in

36:09

police tunnel vision. The

36:11

inquiry made several recommendations for

36:13

reforming police investigative techniques and

36:16

using forensic evidence in court

36:18

to prevent future miscarriages of

36:20

justice. Thomas Safanau was compensated

36:22

$2.3 million, however

36:25

that's a pittance for the

36:27

injustice he endured. But

36:30

who then killed Barbara Stoffel? There

36:33

had been another suspect. According

36:35

to the Safanau inquiry before Thomas'

36:37

arrest, Terry Samuel Arnold was briefly

36:40

considered a suspect in the murder

36:42

of Barbara Stoffel due to several

36:44

links to her and the crime

36:47

scene. Arnold visited

36:49

St. Boniface Hospital on

36:51

December 28, 1981,

36:54

a day before Barbara died, inquiring

36:56

about Barbara's condition and even met

36:58

her mother claiming to know Barbara

37:00

from the ideal donut shop. That's

37:03

really chilling. Mm-hmm. Like

37:05

he was there checking to see if

37:07

she was talking yet probably. Probably. Right

37:09

and imagine if her mother wasn't there

37:11

and he got into the room himself.

37:14

Imagine if he had somehow slipped into

37:16

that room. Hmm. You know maybe

37:18

he would have finished her off. Who

37:20

knows? Who knows? That's

37:23

chilling. That's dark. That's some dark

37:25

poutine right there. That is. Terry

37:27

Arnold already had a dark past.

37:30

Very dark. He was

37:32

arrested three times between June

37:34

and October 1981, consistently

37:36

noted for wearing a cowboy hat.

37:39

During his last arrest he was

37:42

detained alongside Stewart Dickey who later

37:44

confirmed that Arnold frequently wore a

37:46

dark brown cowboy hat adorned with

37:48

gold tokens matching the description in

37:51

a composite drawing linked to the

37:53

murder case. Additionally, a

37:55

recent intercepted phone conversation revealed Arnold

37:57

denying ownership of such a case.

38:00

a hat to his mother, who insisted he

38:02

had left it on a closet shelf. Despite

38:05

Arnold's denials, many family members

38:07

and friends remembered him wearing

38:09

the hat and two independent

38:11

tips during the initial investigation

38:14

pointed to Arnold's resemblance to the

38:16

composite and his possession of the

38:18

hat. One tip came

38:20

from a male accomplice who highlighted

38:22

Arnold's violent nature and his appearance

38:24

matching the composite sketch. Another

38:27

came from a manager at the Salisbury

38:29

House restaurant who noted that Arnold stopped

38:32

wearing the cowboy hat and switched to

38:34

a black toque after the murder. Further

38:37

investigation found eyewitnesses including Arnold's

38:39

stepmother recalling him wearing a

38:42

black rapper-style toque after the

38:44

incident. Arnold who was

38:46

released from the Remand Center on December 15,

38:48

1981, eight days before the murder,

38:53

told police during questioning later

38:56

that he had not received his cowboy

38:58

hat back upon release and that it

39:00

was mistakenly shipped with his accomplices belongings

39:02

to the east. He

39:05

claimed he had not worn a cowboy

39:07

hat since his release contradicting other witness

39:09

accounts. Despite

39:11

resembling the composite sketch of the

39:14

suspect and matching descriptions like wearing

39:16

glasses and having acne, his potential

39:18

alibi could not confirm his whereabouts

39:20

during the critical time. Arnold

39:23

admitted to having a crush on Barbara

39:25

and lived near the donut shop without

39:27

a verifiable alibi for the night of

39:29

the murder. However, the

39:31

investigation into Terry Arnold was

39:34

not thoroughly pursued. Significant

39:37

steps like comparing his fingerprints to

39:39

those found at the crime scene

39:41

were overlooked. This oversight

39:43

was later acknowledged as a failure

39:45

in the investigation indicative of the

39:47

broader issues within the police department

39:49

at the time such as

39:52

a lack of leadership and coordination in

39:54

the case. Today such

39:56

oversights are less likely due

39:58

to advances in investigative practices

40:00

and awareness of cognitive biases

40:02

like tunnel vision. After

40:05

Barb Stobble's murder, Terry Arnold was

40:07

suspected of at least two other

40:10

murders, convicted of one, and was

40:12

involved in other crimes against women,

40:14

girls, and children, receiving

40:16

several more convictions along the way. He'd

40:19

been in and out of jail. In

40:21

1987, Denise Lapierre, a

40:23

17-year-old girl, met a tragic fate

40:25

in Calgary, Alberta. It

40:28

was shortly after her high school

40:30

graduation party when Denise's path intersected

40:32

with tragedy. Her body

40:34

was discovered in a dimly lit

40:36

back alley, a place that should

40:38

have been inconspicuous but now bore

40:40

witness to unspeakable horror. The

40:43

details surrounding her death remained

40:45

hauntingly elusive. She

40:47

and Terry Arnold were living in close proximity

40:49

at the time. Despite extensive

40:52

efforts by law enforcement, the

40:54

evidence required for prosecution in

40:56

Denise Lapierre's case remained elusive.

40:59

The Calgary Police Service had always hoped

41:02

to bring Terry Arnold to justice

41:04

for this homicide, but the legal

41:06

process proved challenging. There

41:08

was another girl, Christine Brown.

41:11

She was 16 when she met

41:13

a horrifying fate near Carameas, British

41:15

Columbia. Her life was brutally

41:17

taken and her family and community were

41:19

left in shock and grief. Authorities

41:22

launched an intensive investigation to

41:24

unravel the truth behind Christine's

41:26

death. The spotlight fell on

41:29

Terry Samuel Arnold, a man with a

41:31

history of serious crimes. Arnold

41:33

had been previously convicted of sexual assault

41:35

in Chilliwack in 1988 and

41:38

was also a suspect in the disappearance of

41:40

a teenager from Cultus Lake during the same

41:43

year. However, it was

41:45

the murder of Christine Brown that brought

41:47

him to the forefront of law enforcement's

41:49

attention. During a sting

41:52

operation, he chillingly confessed to killing

41:54

Christine Brown. On April 9, 1997,

41:56

the RCMP initiated a murder. Mr.

42:00

Big undercover operation targeting Arnold

42:02

for the murder of Christine.

42:05

In the operation, undercover officers

42:07

posed as Hell's Angels members

42:09

and integrated Arnold into their

42:11

fabricated criminal activities which Arnold

42:14

found lucrative and enjoyable. The

42:16

operation culminated in a staged

42:18

meeting where the supposed Hell's

42:20

Angels boss claimed they had

42:22

RCMP contacts aware of Arnold's

42:24

guilt in Christine Brown's murder.

42:27

To secure his full inclusion in the gang,

42:29

Arnold was told they needed someone else to

42:31

confess to the crime. They

42:33

proposed using a dying prison inmate

42:36

who was willing to take the blame. The

42:38

inmate, of course, was another RCMP

42:41

officer wired for sound. Terry

42:43

Arnold was coerced into providing details

42:45

that only Christine Brown's killer would

42:47

have known. Ultimately, the

42:50

sting was successful. Arnold confessed

42:52

on videotape to raping and

42:54

murdering Christine Brown. He even

42:56

assisted RCMP undercover officers in

42:58

locating her remains and the

43:00

shoe in British Columbia. His

43:03

motive? Christine had refused to

43:05

have sex with him. On May 18, 1997,

43:09

Terry Arnold was arrested and charged

43:11

with the murder of Christine Brown. Yeah,

43:13

of course. Of course,

43:15

I'm happy that they caught him for the murder

43:18

of this poor girl because she was a girl.

43:20

She's 16, right? Right. But

43:23

I need to point out, you know, everyone's

43:25

going to roll their eyes. I see everyone

43:27

rolling their eyes listening to this. A bad

43:29

interrogation at a police station is frowned upon

43:32

and everyone yells they didn't do it right.

43:34

It was unfair. Yeah. And

43:36

when up undercover cops are in jail, posing as criminals

43:38

to try to catch the murder and the justice system

43:41

finds us dodgy as well and judges

43:43

throw stuff out all the time. All

43:46

of that is kind of, for me, a

43:48

mini version, I'll call it a Mr. Small

43:50

of a Mr. Big Stink. Sure. It's

43:53

the same stuff. It's just out in the wild. Yeah.

43:56

And I'm telling you, Mike, Mr.

43:58

Big's going to bite us in the ass when we're out. these days

44:00

and mark my words. There'll be one case

44:02

that cuts off a domino effect and there's

44:05

going to be a slew of appeals. Yeah,

44:07

maybe you're right. Terry Arnold

44:09

faced trial in Kelowna in October

44:11

1999. He was

44:13

charged and convicted with first-degree murder.

44:16

However, his conviction was later

44:18

overturned and the charge was

44:20

stayed. Despite this setback, the

44:22

impact of his violent actions

44:24

reverberated far beyond the courtroom.

44:27

Terry Arnold's criminal record extended

44:29

beyond Christine Brown's case. His

44:31

actions left a trail of

44:33

devastation affecting multiple lives and

44:35

communities. In prison at

44:37

Mission Institution in Mission, BC, Terry

44:39

Arnold was interviewed on March 9,

44:43

2000 as part of the Sophonow inquiry. Terry

44:45

Samuel Arnold was identified as a

44:48

sociopath, very high on the Hare

44:50

Psychopathy checklist and a pathological liar

44:52

from the age of 15, beginning

44:55

during his time at the Seven

44:57

Oaks Detention Center. His consistent

44:59

behavior included frequent lying which

45:02

served to minimize and rationalize

45:04

his actions while blaming others.

45:06

The report on the interview

45:08

outlined several distinct behavioral patterns

45:11

exhibited by Terry Arnold, highlighting

45:13

his tendencies and methods that

45:15

indicate deceit and manipulation. His

45:18

interactions with the detectives painted a

45:21

picture of a typical psychopath. Arnold

45:24

frequently minimized the severity of his

45:26

actions or outright denied responsibility. He

45:28

justified his behaviors in ways that

45:30

attempted to rationalize them, often shifting

45:33

the blame to external factors or

45:35

other individuals. When faced with accusations

45:37

or evidence that threatened his narrative,

45:40

Arnold became aggressive and attempted to

45:42

discredit the source of the threat.

45:45

This was evident in how he

45:47

attacked the credibility of others who

45:49

might have incriminating information against him.

45:52

Arnold's statements were noted for

45:54

their complexity and detail, typical

45:57

of fabricated stories. He

46:00

constructed elaborate alibis and explanations

46:02

that required significant cognitive effort

46:04

to maintain, indicating a high

46:07

level of deceit. Arnold's

46:10

accounts throughout the interviews often

46:12

contained contradictions. He might

46:14

say one thing and later provide a

46:16

different version of events, a common indicator

46:19

of falsehood. Consistent with

46:21

his diagnosis as a sociopath, Arnold

46:23

displayed a notable lack of genuine

46:26

remorse or empathy for others. His

46:28

emotional responses were often inappropriate or

46:31

subdued relative to the context of

46:33

the conversation. Terry

46:35

Arnold adeptly manipulated information to

46:38

serve his ends. He selectively

46:40

recalled details that supported his

46:42

version of events while

46:45

conveniently forgetting incriminating information.

46:48

Although he was a pathological liar,

46:50

his lies were not random but

46:53

strategically placed. He lied

46:55

to protect himself from detection and

46:57

accountability, carefully calculating what he could

46:59

deny outright and what he needed

47:01

to explain away with more lies.

47:04

Arnold consistently failed to take

47:06

responsibility for his actions and

47:08

character assessments describe him as

47:10

highly untrustworthy. He never admitted

47:13

to having killed Barb Stoppel. His

47:15

MO remained. Deny, deny,

47:17

deny. He carried on that way until

47:19

the end of his life. Terry Arnold

47:21

was eventually released and in late March 2005, his

47:23

body was found in a

47:27

Victoria, BC apartment. He had

47:29

died by suicide using an overdose of

47:31

drugs and alcohol. In the

47:33

weeks leading up to his death, the

47:35

Victoria police issued a public advisory regarding

47:37

Terry Arnold's release from a local jail.

47:40

His release followed a 12-day

47:42

sentence for violating the conditions

47:44

of his bail related to

47:46

child pornography charges. He left

47:48

a three-page suicide note denying

47:51

responsibility for killing anyone and

47:53

according to a CBC article, blamed

47:56

the media for harassing him.

48:00

to the end. So he

48:03

is a convicted murderer.

48:05

Why would he get

48:07

a 12-day sentence only

48:10

violating conditions of his bail?

48:12

Related to child pornography. Great

48:14

questions Matthew. That seems like

48:17

a very light sentence for

48:19

child pornography. Well in Canadian justice

48:22

a lot of times each crime

48:25

is taken on its own and there's

48:27

not like a cumulative

48:30

history of criminal behavior unless

48:33

there's a dangerous offender

48:35

application and in his case that

48:38

didn't happen. Yeah I'm

48:40

upset that he

48:42

continued to do the shitty things

48:44

that he did. And that he

48:46

killed himself because there's so many

48:48

unanswered questions that maybe could have

48:50

got to eventually and some families

48:53

would have had some closure and

48:59

our good man Thomas would have had some

49:01

more closure as well. Yep. With

49:03

somebody the right person being put

49:06

in jail for that crime. Was

49:09

Terry Arnold a serial killer? In

49:12

2018 Dorena Green told APTN News about

49:14

a harrowing run-in that she had had

49:16

with Terry Arnold when she was only

49:18

15 years old. At

49:21

15 Dorena was a runaway distancing

49:23

herself from her parents and experimenting

49:25

with alcohol while staying with friends.

49:27

During a dinner at a friend's

49:29

house she met Terry Arnold who

49:31

was visiting with her friend's uncle.

49:34

Arnold offered her a place to stay

49:36

and drove her to his nearby trailer

49:38

the next day. Upon

49:40

entering the trailer Green immediately felt

49:43

uneasy. A disturbing movie

49:45

was playing on TV. There was sexual

49:47

assault in it and guns were visibly

49:49

laid out on the table. Realizing

49:52

the danger of her situation

49:54

she found herself effectively trapped.

49:57

Arnold then sexually assaulted her. tried

50:00

to scream but then he started to

50:02

strangle her with his hands. She completely

50:04

shut down after that and Arnold stopped

50:07

for some reason. Dorena and Arnold got

50:09

into his car and drove into the

50:11

mountains above Chilliwack just 10 minutes away.

50:13

Dorena was numb from the initial attack.

50:16

They parked and walked into the bush

50:18

together. Arnold told Dorena that she wouldn't

50:20

be coming back and, again, tried to strangle

50:22

her his arm around her neck. She

50:25

begged for her life while Terry Arnold told

50:27

her a few of the horrible things he'd

50:29

done to other girls. She

50:31

didn't struggle physically, and after some

50:33

more ranting about his past, Terry

50:36

Arnold stopped and let Dorena go.

50:39

Today, she's a proud mother

50:41

of three children and four grandchildren. She's

50:43

found solace and art, which she

50:45

considers therapeutic, and has also turned to

50:48

traditional indigenous healing methods to cope with

50:50

the trauma she experienced. Despite

50:52

her recovery, she admits she is

50:55

still unsure why she survived the

50:57

ordeal. And the only person to

50:59

answer that question is the guy who's dead again. Yeah,

51:02

well, I'm glad she was able to. You

51:04

know, she's going to carry this for all

51:06

of her life, but it sounds like she's

51:09

put in the work. She's put in the work

51:11

to heal from it.

51:15

Right. So I hope she

51:17

is. Yeah. Doing something creative is a great

51:19

way to heal. That's what this sort of

51:21

started as for me, trying to do something

51:23

creative to get over some of the stuff

51:25

that I had gone through in my life.

51:27

So Thomas Safnau resides

51:30

in New West British Columbia, just across

51:32

the bridge from us with

51:34

his second wife and their three

51:36

children diagnosed with post-traumatic

51:38

stress syndrome, a condition that

51:41

may persist indefinitely. Safnau has

51:43

opted not to return to

51:45

full-time employment. Yeah. I feel

51:47

for this guy and I

51:49

was glad he was vindicated

51:52

in the end, but he

51:54

went through a lot. And

51:56

unlike the murder victims, he's still

51:58

living and... had to

52:01

deal with all that stuff. He

52:03

went through so unfairly. And

52:06

I'm glad it

52:08

makes me happy that there was the

52:10

right outcome in the end for him, but how

52:13

could you trust the system or the country

52:15

that you live in after that's done to

52:17

you? Or your neighbors or people that knew

52:20

you and people that like ended

52:22

up throwing firebomb in your place. He's gone

52:24

through hell and all I

52:27

do is wish him the best and you

52:29

know. Yeah. I'm hoping he can

52:31

put some of this behind him one way

52:34

or the other. Me too.

52:36

And that's it for Dark Poutine episode 315. More

52:40

Than Meets The Eye. The murder

52:42

of Barbara Stoffel. That's

52:57

right. It's time for voicemails. You

53:00

can leave us a message at 1-877-327-5786 or

53:06

1-877-DARKPTN. We'd love to hear

53:08

from you. Let's see who

53:10

called us this week. Alrighty.

53:13

Let's listen to our first voicemail. Don't

53:15

know who it's from, but we've got

53:17

one. Hey guys. I'm

53:19

just calling. It's been

53:21

quite some time. I'm the guy who has

53:24

the family member who went over the falls.

53:27

Oh

53:30

god it's so terrible. Go

53:34

shoot your hat. Love you guys. If

53:38

that's all you got to say, that's fine. That's

53:40

awesome. And it sounds like it was raining. I

53:42

thought I heard windshield white. Yeah. That's exactly what

53:44

you heard. He was probably

53:47

in traffic jam and it's raining. I'm

53:50

going to call him Matthew at night.

53:52

Exactly. Let's just give those turkeys a

53:54

call because I'm bored. Thanks for calling

53:56

dude. That's great. I love that. Much

53:59

appreciated. to hopefully you know it's

54:01

stopped raining wherever you are. We've

54:05

got one more voicemail. Hi Mike

54:07

and Matthew this is Gina calling

54:09

from Southern Pennsylvania. I'm listening

54:12

to you guys since the beginning and

54:15

I absolutely adore you. I'm

54:19

trying so hard not to giggle while

54:22

I'm listening to the

54:24

whole tips and

54:27

teeth discussion. As

54:29

a boob haver I cannot think

54:31

of anything I would hate more

54:34

than a dentist slash

54:37

mammography office regardless

54:41

of how clever the name is but love

54:44

the show love you guys so so much

54:48

love seeing Eggo

54:51

and waffles and Steve in the

54:53

Facebook group and in the yumber

54:56

yard keep up the good

54:58

work and go poop in your took. Bye.

55:02

Thank you very much. Thank you.

55:04

I was thinking maybe the male

55:06

version of tits and teeth the

55:08

store would be a prostate

55:13

specialist and something

55:17

to do with footwear and

55:20

it'd be cocks and socks.

55:22

She's from Pennsylvania and I

55:24

love that saying by

55:27

the Pennsylvania Dutch it's

55:29

for a nice. Who are they

55:32

boobs for? They're for nice. They're

55:35

for nice. Yeah

55:37

I think that you know tits

55:40

and teeth that would be a terrible place

55:42

because nobody likes to go to the dentist

55:44

and every woman who I have ever met

55:46

or every boob haver who I've ever met

55:49

loads going to have a mammography

55:52

so yeah yes terrible idea but

55:54

it's you know well you know

55:56

you could get kill two birds

55:58

with one stone Just do two

56:00

things you hate in the same day

56:03

and get it over with. I, um,

56:05

let's, let's take this opportunity to remind

56:07

people to get their

56:09

boobs checked. Yeah. I, um,

56:11

uh, it carries in

56:13

my family and there's someone in my family

56:15

that until the

56:17

age, I think of 16, never got checked

56:19

and until I hounded her

56:22

to do it. Um,

56:25

yeah. So it's important. It is important.

56:27

Look at me doing a little public

56:31

service, little public service. Yeah.

56:34

What do you think she does there

56:36

in Pennsylvania? It's something where she can't

56:38

giggle. So does she work in a

56:40

funeral home maybe? Or gosh, can you

56:42

imagine? Yeah. Listening to

56:45

dark booty in the funeral home. People

56:47

have been known to laugh in funerals,

56:49

not because they're being disrespectful. It's just

56:51

the, all the emotion. Yep. Um,

56:54

I think she's a furniture maker. Okay.

56:56

What kind of furniture? Like

56:59

shaker furniture type stuff. Oh, okay.

57:02

Yeah. That's not sure everyone in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania

57:04

doing stuff like that. I don't know why

57:06

I know nothing about Pennsylvania, but I think

57:08

of like, like the Pennsylvania

57:11

big city. I know,

57:13

but I always think of like,

57:15

like arts and crafts in Pennsylvania.

57:17

No, literally no idea why. What

57:19

about Rocky from Philadelphia

57:21

running up those stairs? I had

57:23

no idea that Philadelphia was in

57:25

Pennsylvania. Hmm. And

57:28

Pittsburgh too. I had no idea. Oh

57:31

boy. Well, I kind of did. Yeah.

57:33

No, I knew kind of.

57:36

Yeah. Anyway, I know nothing about Pennsylvania.

57:39

There you go. Except these things you just

57:41

told me. So we need to learn more

57:43

Pennsylvania. Can you call in? Yeah.

57:45

More people and tell us, tell us

57:47

a cool story from the history of

57:49

Pennsylvania. Yeah. We're interested. I want to

57:52

know this. We know about the Liberty

57:54

Bell and all that kind of stuff,

57:56

but. That Pennsylvania as well. Yes. Philadelphia.

57:58

That cracked bell thing. Yes. Okay,

58:00

is that the one that talk is that the Taco

58:03

Bell Bell is

58:05

Taco Bell from Pennsylvania? No Okay,

58:11

this is all Matthew this is no

58:13

where the Vernon surely in Pennsylvania they

58:15

were in Wisconsin

58:18

Milwaukee is that in your Wyoming?

58:22

No Oh

58:26

boy, well, it's in the it's in

58:28

the same country. Okay, see I'm not

58:30

far off. Yeah, right It's the bus

58:33

somewhere. Yep. I've driven through

58:35

it. I know it's south and east That's

58:38

it for this week's voicemails again.

58:40

You can leave us one at one eight

58:42

seven seven three two seven five seven eight

58:44

six or one eight

58:46

seven seven D a r k P T n

58:49

We'd love to hear from you Even if it is just

58:51

to say hi and to tell us to go shit in

58:53

our hats If you're stumped for what

58:55

to chat with us about a quick story is

58:57

welcome All right. We are

59:00

moving on to donut money donors

59:02

and Patreon

59:05

first up we

59:07

have a patron this week

59:10

Yeah, and her name is

59:12

Tracy sands and Tracy is

59:14

from Shelburne Nova Scotia The

59:17

South Shore my old

59:19

stomping grounds. I learn I love

59:21

the Nova Scotians treat us well

59:23

Yes, they do Nova Scotians. Well,

59:25

everybody treats us. Well, really Yeah

59:27

We have we have a lot of people who

59:29

treat as well and even people from outside of

59:31

Canada seem to like it as we evidenced by

59:34

a phone call from Pennsylvania

59:36

and other phone calls from Florida and New

59:38

Jersey I love our phone calls me too.

59:40

Yeah, I do too. I wish more people

59:42

would call except for the haters that we

59:45

don't play We've had like

59:47

two. Yeah, but Yeah,

59:50

yeah, exactly for the players that haters that we don't

59:52

play. Yeah, exactly So

59:56

what does Tracy sands do

59:58

there in Shelburne Nova? What

1:00:01

does Tracy Sands do in Shelburne Nova

1:00:03

Scotia? I

1:00:07

think Tracy Sands owns

1:00:11

a shop that

1:00:14

does high tea. And

1:00:17

I'm saying that because I'm taking my mother

1:00:19

to high tea on Monday. Oh, where are

1:00:21

you going? I

1:00:24

was going to go to one of the posh hotels, but

1:00:26

they're all booked on the weekends. So I'm taking her to

1:00:29

one of the places in Vancouver. I think it's

1:00:31

called Neverland High Tea or something like that. Oh,

1:00:33

that one's nice. I've been there. Oh, is it

1:00:35

good? Yep, it's nice. So I'm taking my mom

1:00:37

to high tea on Monday. It's more

1:00:39

afternoon tea than it is high tea. Well,

1:00:43

high tea is afternoon. Well,

1:00:46

yeah, well, I think it's

1:00:49

the style of food that

1:00:51

you get too. Yeah, so Tracy owns like

1:00:53

a really cool, it's kind of like

1:00:55

Wizard of Oz. So

1:00:57

she's decorated it all, like Wizard of

1:00:59

Oz, like really sort of lush and

1:01:02

there's high tea and she has this

1:01:04

little shop and it's like a clapboard

1:01:06

painted pink on the outside shop,

1:01:09

like ye olde worldy. And

1:01:15

the crab cakes are like what

1:01:17

they're famous for. There you go. That's

1:01:19

great. I like the little sandwiches with

1:01:23

no crusts on, the little

1:01:25

white bread, sammies. But

1:01:27

after I booked this, I realized I'm only

1:01:29

eating one meal a day right now, Chantelise

1:01:31

waits. I'm going to have to like eat a

1:01:33

lot of high tea and not have dinner that day. It's

1:01:36

probably better to eat in the middle of the day anyway. Alrighty,

1:01:40

so that's it for patrons, but

1:01:42

we do have a PayPal

1:01:45

donor, a Donut Money donor. And

1:01:50

it is from somebody who has donated before.

1:01:53

It's Lisa Skyhart Marshall

1:01:55

Art. And oh yes,

1:01:57

yes. skyheartart.com

1:02:01

or at

1:02:04

skyheartart on Instagram.

1:02:13

I'm looking at her Instagram right now. I

1:02:15

remember the first time she did it, we

1:02:17

looked her up and I was like, wow,

1:02:19

she's actually really good. I've really liked

1:02:22

her stuff. Yeah, she does really nice

1:02:24

stuff. Sometimes people send us links and

1:02:26

you're like, okay. But I'm

1:02:28

like, okay, actually this is good shit.

1:02:31

It's really good. Take a

1:02:34

look at it. It is

1:02:36

good. So skyheartart.com. skyheartart.com. And

1:02:39

Lisa says, not for donuts, donut

1:02:42

money. So I guess she wants us to

1:02:44

have something other than donuts. Maybe

1:02:47

broccoli. Broccoli. Yes, exactly.

1:02:51

I've got a headache cauliflower that I

1:02:53

need to deal with before it goes bad. So

1:02:55

I have a good recipe for you. Oh, send

1:02:58

me. Send me. Yeah. Yeah.

1:03:00

I've been, I've been eating better as well.

1:03:03

Both of us have lost some weight. 22

1:03:06

pounds and counting, Mikey. Yeah, for you.

1:03:08

That's pretty great. Yeah. Yeah.

1:03:10

Like you look good, man. Another 22 to go. I

1:03:13

get, like I said in the gumbry art, I it's, I've

1:03:15

lost her. I can't see it. Can

1:03:17

you see it? I can see it. I mean, I was

1:03:19

joking the other day when I pointed out, Oh, look at

1:03:21

me. Cause I was like hoping you'd say something, but, um,

1:03:24

I can't totally see it. I've

1:03:26

lost 7.6. So

1:03:29

I'm, I'm still working. I'm still new at

1:03:31

this. You lost more before though. Yeah.

1:03:34

I lost 40 pounds. So

1:03:37

now you're continuing on. That was

1:03:39

actually more like 50 and yeah, 40, 40, 40. So

1:03:42

I'm like, totally I've lost

1:03:44

47 pounds. Yeah.

1:03:47

I still have ways to go.

1:03:49

No, no, no, darling. Health, darling

1:03:52

health, tits and teeth. Oh

1:03:55

boy. Thanks

1:03:57

to all our patrons and donut money donors.

1:04:00

past and present for your generosity.

1:04:02

It helps to keep the show

1:04:04

going. You can become a patron

1:04:06

of Dark Poutine at patreon.com/darkpoutine. For

1:04:09

a one-time donation, you can send us

1:04:11

donut money via PayPal using our email

1:04:13

address [email protected]. If you don't already subscribe

1:04:16

to the show, it would mean a

1:04:18

lot if you did. You can easily

1:04:20

find Dark Poutine on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

1:04:23

or wherever you listen to your favorite

1:04:25

shows. If you haven't gotten yours yet,

1:04:27

my book, Murder Madness and Mayhem is

1:04:30

available to order via a link on

1:04:32

the Dark Poutine website. And speaking of

1:04:34

darkpoutine.com, please check it out for show

1:04:37

notes and other cool stuff. We'd

1:04:39

appreciate it if you took the time to give Dark

1:04:41

Poutine a like or a follow on Facebook and Instagram.

1:04:44

Most importantly, thank you for listening and tell

1:04:46

your friends about us. Word of mouth is

1:04:48

a powerful thing. And

1:04:53

that is it for this episode of Dark Poutine.

1:04:56

So until next time, you know what to do.

1:04:58

Don't forget to be a good egg and not

1:05:00

a bad apple. Goodbye, y'all.

1:05:02

Bye. Said

1:05:46

to my parents, don't trust her, I

1:05:48

wouldn't listen. Every family has a secret.

1:05:50

Joey Delaney, number four, is going to

1:05:52

sing. From the author of Big Little

1:05:54

Lies comes a chilling new mystery to

1:05:56

W. You are an emotional chaos sinkhole,

1:05:59

Amy, and I'm sick of it! Starring

1:06:01

Annette Bening. Nobody can break your

1:06:03

heart like you're old. Shoop-shoop. And

1:06:05

Sam Neill. She will come back.

1:06:07

Here we go, I'm strapping. Apples

1:06:10

never fall. All new Thursdays

1:06:12

only only on W. on W. Stream on

1:06:14

Stack TV.