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by state law.

2:07

Why did you want to be a police officer? I

2:10

wanted to help people that

2:13

couldn't help themselves and to actually

2:16

work in the community I grew up in was cool.

2:20

I was attracted to just being a part of the community,

2:22

being able to get involved in stuff and

2:25

make a difference.

2:26

So before this happened, what's the day

2:28

in the life of a police officer? For

2:31

you? I don't think every day was

2:34

the same. It was different. You pretty much

2:36

get a whole gamut of calls.

2:39

You could be answering a false

2:41

alarm to a

2:44

bank robbery, to a

2:47

child abuse case, to... I

2:49

mean, it just all depends.

2:52

How did you feel about wearing the uniform? Great.

2:57

Did you take pride in it when you put it on?

2:59

Oh, absolutely. You

3:02

have authority. You walk in a room,

3:04

people know who you are, but they

3:07

don't know why you're there, but they're looking at you

3:09

for direction.

3:13

What did it feel like to have that kind of power?

3:29

I guess entitlement.

3:33

I got to do

3:36

whatever I wanted, pretty

3:38

much. I

3:41

had the car, I got a badge, I got

3:44

a gun. I

3:46

could basically coerce you with my words

3:49

to have you do

3:51

what I want you to do. And

3:53

what does that do to someone's ego? It

4:02

could be a dangerous thing.

4:10

Erlon. Hey. This is

4:13

a pretty tough episode. That's right, Nij. So

4:15

please use discretion while listening. And

4:18

take care. I'm Nigel Poor. I'm

4:21

Erlon Woods. And this is Ear Hustle

4:23

from PRX's Radio-Topia. Hey,

4:30

New York. What's up, E? What's

4:32

up, Nij? Hey, good to see you. We

4:34

brought producer Rahsaan New York Thomas

4:37

into the studio because New York,

4:39

you're the one who first introduced us to

4:41

Ed Wardo. Want to tell us how you met

4:43

him? When

4:44

I was incarcerated at San Quentin, we both

4:46

lived on the fifth tier. So I used to see him all the time.

4:48

But I really noticed him when I saw a

4:51

big crowd around him on the yard. And he was preaching.

4:53

Yeah, I remember you told us, like,

4:56

there's this new preacher at San Quentin. And

4:58

you might want to talk to him. Exactly.

5:01

All right, so one of the things that impressed

5:03

me about you is that I would see you preaching

5:05

on the yard. And there'd be, like, this loud, large

5:08

crowd around you.

5:09

How did that get started? So

5:12

we gathered on the yard. We grabbed our Bibles.

5:14

And we just started preaching to whoever

5:16

showed up. And before

5:19

you know it, it just started growing and growing each week.

5:22

And we ended up implementing some

5:25

worship in there. We did communion

5:27

out there. We

5:29

made a space for people to come and get prayer. And

5:32

we functioned like that for a little bit.

5:35

You said you did communion on the yard. How

5:37

did you do that? Well,

5:40

we had someone bring crackers. And we had

5:42

someone bring kool-aid. And we had

5:45

communion. And who administered

5:47

it? That's the sacrament, right? Wait

5:49

a minute. He just said he

5:51

did communion with rich crackers and kool-aid. Rich

5:53

crackers and kool-aid. Well,

5:56

it stands for the body and the blood of Christ. Yeah.

5:59

Yeah. How

6:05

did you change when you were in front of the congregation?

6:08

Like what would change in your body or your face

6:10

or your voice or the feelings inside?

6:14

Certain times

6:16

and certain messages, like I'd start to weep

6:18

because of what the passage actually really meant

6:20

to me. Especially when you

6:22

start speaking about what Christ did for us, you know. And

6:26

in your mind, you already know like the worst of the worst,

6:28

who you are, what you've done. And then

6:30

to think of a God who came down

6:33

to die for all that sin. I mean, sometimes

6:35

that gets really overwhelming, talking about it and

6:38

you're recalling your life. And it's just it

6:40

puts you in such a humble and broken place.

6:43

How did you get started preaching? Like when did you first

6:45

become a Christian? I knew church.

6:48

I just didn't know Jesus. So it wasn't

6:50

until I got to county jail and

6:52

I

6:53

didn't have anything. I mean, I lost everything. Family,

6:56

friends, possessions, everything was

6:58

gone. And this deputy,

7:01

he asked me if I had anything to read. I'm like, no. And

7:03

so he slid a Bible on my door and I

7:06

was like, well, it's better than nothing.

7:08

Being alone with your thoughts is torment.

7:11

So I just started reading the Bible and

7:13

I just kept reading and reading. And I made

7:15

a commitment to God. I said, you know, Lord, if you could

7:18

do something with this life, you could take all this brokenness

7:20

and do something with it. Then it's yours.

7:28

Listeners should know that Eduardo is not

7:30

his real name. State prison officials

7:32

asked us to use an alias. Ten

7:34

years ago, before Eduardo came

7:37

to San Quentin State Prison and started preaching,

7:40

he was a police officer working a night

7:42

shift in Sacramento, California.

7:45

I was married, had children, nice house,

7:47

car. I

7:51

got really good at compartmentalizing. Like

7:54

once I got off of work and

7:57

I shaded all my uniform, then

7:59

it's like.

7:59

okay, now I'm the family guy. I'm

8:03

wondering if there's like when you put on the uniform,

8:06

if it somehow allows

8:08

us to become a different personality?

8:11

Because you just said like you'd go home, take off the uniform

8:13

and then you were the dad and the

8:14

husband and all that stuff. People

8:17

I worked with, they had no idea what was going on either. So

8:20

I was able to make

8:23

it look like I was doing my job, but then when

8:26

there was a lot of downtime, I'd

8:28

go out and commit

8:32

crime.

8:33

Obviously there's a progression

8:36

to why you commit your crime, but

8:39

there's just

8:42

a one day, one opportunity. And

8:47

I chose to say yes. Did

8:50

you see it coming, that change that was going

8:52

to happen in your life? Was it something you've tried

8:55

to push down or did it take

8:57

you by

8:57

surprise? I

9:00

don't think it was a fell on a surprise. I

9:07

think it was something that was always in front of me and

9:09

maybe I was before, but I said

9:12

no. And then one day I just

9:14

gave myself permission to be like,

9:16

no, okay.

9:22

I wanna jump in here to warn people

9:24

that this crime he's gonna talk about is

9:26

sexual assault. And there are graphic

9:29

descriptions throughout this episode.

9:36

I guess I could take

9:38

you back to the day that

9:41

I crossed that line. I

9:44

was on duty. It was at night, it

9:46

was the middle of the night. And

9:49

I seen a female walking down the street. She

9:52

was covered in a blanket. And

9:54

so I stopped, asked what she was doing out

9:56

there. Obviously around that time,

9:58

they're only out there for a couple of things.

9:59

So while

10:04

I was talking with her, I found some

10:08

drug paraphernalia and stuff. I placed her

10:10

in the back of the car and she was arrestable.

10:14

Usually at night, if you find someone to have

10:16

a minor crime,

10:19

you might want to ask them for some information. You

10:21

could let some things go with the warning. You

10:23

have some discretion. She

10:26

said that she didn't

10:28

want to go to jail. She

10:30

was on drugs. She didn't want to get sick.

10:33

So I kept asking her about information. She said she wasn't a snitch. And

10:38

I think she felt like that I wasn't going to

10:40

let her go unless she gave me something. So she offered,

10:42

hey, I'll have sex with

10:44

you if you let me go. And

10:47

I shut her door and I said, I'm going to get back to you. And

10:49

I thought about it and ended up

10:51

opening the door and I said, all right. We

10:55

can do

10:56

this. And we drove to a secluded area

10:59

and we

11:03

engaged in sex, dropped her back off.

11:06

And that was it.

11:13

Being in law enforcement and having that

11:15

authority, that power, that presence is

11:17

too easy. Once

11:21

you make that decision across that line, then that's it.

11:25

Of

11:28

course, it can give me what I want because they don't want to go to jail. So

11:31

I'm actually doing them a favor like this is how I thought

11:33

back then. And

11:38

did it escalate once you realized,

11:41

okay, I can do this. Did

11:43

it become really like

11:44

obsessive behavior? You

11:48

can call it that because I

11:50

found myself at night when

11:52

I was working, I would basically seek out

11:55

women that were walking. I

11:57

would stop them. I would try to find something across

11:59

the street. criminal on them and basically

12:01

lead them down the line of questions that would lead to

12:04

them performing sex

12:06

acts. And

12:08

I was doing that. I was a predator.

12:16

How long did this go on before

12:18

you were arrested? It

12:20

went on for a year. And

12:24

do you think your colleagues suspected what was

12:26

going on? No. No?

12:30

No, I got good at lying to

12:32

them too. There were suspicions

12:34

at one time, but obviously

12:37

I denied it and they backed me up.

12:39

Did you live in fear of it coming out? Pretty

12:43

much after the first time I did it, I knew that

12:45

I was done. It's just a matter of time. Because

12:48

if they found out about Juan, then for

12:51

some reason I just didn't stop. So...

13:01

We knew going in that this was going to be a hard interview.

13:04

I had read a little bit about his crime,

13:07

which I actually never do before interviews.

13:10

And it was rough. I remember coming to New

13:12

York and being like, this is going to be tough.

13:15

It's really hard to deal with sex crimes.

13:18

It's hard to think about them. It's

13:20

hard to talk to people about them. And

13:22

you really have to check your emotions going

13:25

into the

13:25

conversation. Yeah, there's this

13:27

philosophy where they say, hate the crime and not

13:29

the person. And that's a lot easier

13:31

to do when you know the person and you don't know

13:33

the crime. When you know what the crime

13:36

is, you kind of look at the person differently. Like, are you fooling

13:38

me dude? Are you the crime?

13:40

It's really hard to separate the two.

13:42

Yeah. So, would you rather

13:44

just not know? I

13:47

don't ask, but

13:50

I don't close my ears when information comes my

13:52

way. So part of me does want to know. That's

13:56

why in most cases, I don't want to know

13:58

what guys have done. I just want

14:00

to, you know, meet them where they are now.

14:03

But

14:03

in a story like this, I

14:06

can't do that.

14:11

What would happen when it was over? Drive them back

14:13

to where I picked them up from. And how

14:15

do you? Just drop them off. And

14:16

how would you feel at that point? Like,

14:23

I don't know, like, was there ever any shame

14:25

or anger or just like,

14:27

oh, what the fuck? I don't know. This is. Yeah,

14:31

probably the last one.

14:34

Like, what am I doing? You know, tell

14:36

myself, man, I got to stop. I'm not going to

14:38

do this again. And.

14:43

Yeah, and I'm going to get caught,

14:46

you know. Yeah.

14:48

Was there some point like during

14:50

the the the

14:52

looking for the person, the yeah,

14:55

the hunt? Where was the thrill? Was it

14:57

in trying to find the woman? Was it getting

14:59

her clothes off? Was it having an orgasm?

15:01

Like, what was the what was the thrill

15:04

for you or the

15:06

the trigger or the addiction

15:08

part of it in the act?

15:23

I don't know. I think it's just having the power of

15:26

over someone else and just having

15:28

them do what I wanted.

15:43

Were they people to you? No,

15:49

no, I did. I dehumanized him. I

15:52

would I would seek them out. I

15:54

know what they would be doing out there. I would

15:57

find a reason for them to

15:59

make a decision. to either lose their

16:01

freedom or do what I asked them to do. Yeah.

16:04

There were nothing more but a means

16:06

to an end for me.

16:11

I didn't have to use like physical

16:14

force. All I had to do is just

16:17

pose them with the question like, what

16:19

do you got for me if you don't want to go

16:21

to jail? Because

16:23

I knew what they were involved in and what they did.

16:26

I know they would lean towards that way. I

16:29

let them ask the question and I was like, okay.

16:34

Do you think they were afraid? Yeah.

16:40

I know that they didn't want to do it, but they did

16:42

what they had to do to stay free. You

16:45

know, I

16:49

took something that didn't belong to me. I

16:52

took their choice. And

16:58

I mean, what do you think it's done to their lives? Man,

17:10

I

17:12

can't even imagine. Probably

17:15

from that day forward, they barely had no trust in

17:18

law enforcement. They probably didn't

17:20

even feel safe in their own community. Probably

17:27

every time they saw a police car, you

17:30

know, I could only imagine like the

17:32

fear that welled up inside of them. Like, is it

17:34

going to happen again? Like who do I trust?

17:37

Who do I call

17:38

for help?

17:40

Erlon said this one time about

17:42

how when you commit a crime,

17:45

you know, you steal money or whatever you

17:47

do, but you're also taking something that's

17:49

intangible, which is someone's sense

17:52

of

17:52

security and safety. And

17:55

it could be worse than the crime because it ripples out

17:57

into the rest of their lives. So

18:01

I wonder when you, when something

18:04

happens to you, like what you did, something

18:07

is gone in them. Like, I wonder if it can ever heal.

18:11

How does someone come back from

18:13

that experience? It's

18:17

like a scar, like the wound's gone, but the scar's

18:19

still there reminding you of what happened. So,

18:24

yeah, I did something that was gonna affect them for

18:27

the rest of their life.

18:30

So, Eduardo, I think you could tell from the

18:34

way he talks, he's

18:39

big into the group thing at San Quentin. And

18:42

basically, that's guys who have committed crimes

18:44

doing a lot of intensive group work to help

18:46

them come to terms with what they did and the

18:48

impact that it had.

18:49

Yeah, and in those groups, they talk a

18:51

lot about trauma and personal growth,

18:54

but I have to say, New York, sometimes I

18:56

don't know when it's real

18:59

or when it's a performance. Yeah,

19:01

I could see what you mean, Nod. You

19:05

seem so sincere, but

19:08

you also seem sincere while you were a cop too, right?

19:10

Like, how do people know that this change is real? Like,

19:13

because if you had this ability to be a

19:15

father in the daytime and then this predator at night,

19:18

like, how do people know if your change is real or not? That's

19:20

a good question. And I've

19:23

asked myself that

19:25

too, because I got really good

19:27

at compartmentalizing, right, who I was

19:30

out there, and I asked

19:32

myself that, and I'm like, man, could I be

19:34

just deceiving myself?

19:36

Am I putting myself through

19:38

the same thing for self-preservation?

19:42

But then the one thing that told me that

19:44

I wasn't was, I'm the

19:46

same person that I am in myself, that I

19:49

am out on the tier, on the yard,

19:51

in church, in the cell hall, I'm the same

19:53

person.

19:55

I couldn't say that for myself when I was out there, because

19:58

I was someone different. behind my

20:01

house, closed doors in my house, it

20:03

was volatile. Out

20:06

on the street, I performed, you

20:08

know, with my friends. I partied, you

20:10

know, I just, I compartmentalized, but

20:13

I was in secret. I was

20:15

a horrible human being,

20:17

but I'm not like that today.

20:24

Are you tormented? I

20:28

know what you've done and the consequences

20:30

of it. Yeah, yeah,

20:32

obviously, not as much as I was before,

20:35

not that I'm okay with it now. It's

20:38

just that I'm able, I could sit with it now and

20:40

I could ask myself questions about it and like

20:42

look for answers. And if

20:45

I started talking about it in a group, I mean,

20:48

yeah, it's gonna break me down because of the

20:51

guilt I feel about what I did, you

20:53

know, but I'm understanding that that's not

20:56

who I am, that I'm different now, but

20:58

I could talk about what I did and

21:01

hopefully I'm able to help someone else understand

21:03

or heal or grow from

21:05

what they did also by dealing with my

21:07

stuff. So if I just

21:09

lived in a place of shame and unforgiveness

21:12

and guilt and bitterness and all that stuff, I'm

21:14

no good to anybody.

21:18

I really hear what you're saying and I

21:21

agree with all of it. I don't want

21:23

people to just live in pain, you

21:25

know? Yeah. But I do

21:27

think a lot about victims too and I just wonder

21:29

like who's holding those women. Yeah.

21:32

What would happen if you had

21:35

the opportunity to sit across from one of them? Wow.

21:42

Well.

21:48

Would you take it? I

21:51

would. I would.

21:56

Because

21:58

I want them to truly. Hear

22:00

from me how how sorry and how remorseful

22:03

I was for what I did because they

22:05

didn't get that when I was out there

22:07

They seen they seen the monster in front of them.

22:10

I just took something from him without without

22:12

any care. I Want

22:14

them to sit in front of me and I want to

22:16

tell them that that they're worthy

22:18

and what I did to him was wrong I

22:20

just want to be there from because

22:22

I wasn't for them before I was in a

22:24

position to help them But I hurt

22:26

them instead. Yeah, yeah

22:31

I

22:38

Remember leaving San Quentin that day

22:40

and I was really unsettled I

22:42

mean, I don't think it comes across on the tape

22:45

at all But Eduardo just wasn't

22:47

what I expected him to be. Yeah,

22:49

the me seems very very sincere Mm-hmm.

22:51

And in fact, I could not tell what crime

22:54

is in prison for but I had no

22:56

clue Based on his demeanor

22:58

his daily walk his position in the church

23:01

You just can't see any signs of what he hi

23:04

used to be

23:04

I know like so when he was sitting in the chair,

23:06

he had like really good eye contact He

23:09

wasn't shifty. He was really soft-spoken

23:12

I didn't get any weird vibe from

23:15

him and I expected to have this

23:17

really visceral Negative reaction

23:19

to him and it just didn't happen

23:21

and I have to say I found it really

23:24

confusing Because my assumptions

23:26

and my experience Just

23:29

didn't go together at all.

23:30

But you got to remember This

23:33

is a guy that's drawn to a position of power

23:35

You know what I'm saying first as a police officer and

23:37

now as a preacher

23:39

I know so I keep

23:41

coming back to like where we being manipulated

23:43

and it really nagged at me So

23:46

a few months later we asked Eduardo

23:49

to come back down for another interview

23:51

And we'll be back after the break with

23:54

that conversation

24:14

Nigel, here's something that

24:16

we talk a lot about on our team, good

24:19

talkers. Yes, a good talker is

24:21

someone who you just want to listen

24:23

to. It doesn't necessarily

24:26

matter what story they're telling you, they are so

24:28

good at it. You just want to hang on every

24:30

word.

24:31

I think the podcast, The Mall,

24:33

kind of specializes in those type of characters.

24:36

You remember that one episode, Bodily Autonomy?

24:38

I know, so we were in the car driving together

24:40

listening to it, and it was about women

24:43

having to make really tough decisions

24:45

about their bodies. Right. A

24:47

heavy topic, but the two storytellers

24:50

were intense and funny

24:52

and surprising. Right. They

24:55

make you think about stuff that's not always easy

24:57

to think about. Draw you in and hold on to it. Yes.

25:01

The Moth was one of the first podcasts

25:03

to bring listeners true stories from people

25:06

all around the world, helping to launch the

25:08

modern storytelling movement.

25:09

If you don't know The Moth, they have

25:11

been at it for 25 years, allowing

25:14

everyday people to tell their true stories,

25:16

usually on stage at live

25:18

storytelling events.

25:19

If you're not already listening to The Moth,

25:22

definitely check it out. Check it out for

25:24

sure.

25:38

I know last time we started by praying. I

25:40

don't know if you want to do that again before we talk. It

25:43

seemed like a nice way to get into

25:45

the conversation. It's up to you. Sure.

25:47

Yeah, if you like me to. Yeah, let's

25:49

do that. Yeah, sure. So,

25:53

Father God, Lord, I appreciate

25:55

this responsibility of being

25:57

here. I pray that you bless this

25:59

time.

25:59

we have together. Lord everything

26:02

that come out of my mouth, Lord God let it be real,

26:04

authentic and let it glorify your name. I thank

26:07

you for the people who do this, the lives

26:09

that he touched and I

26:12

just pray that you bless them for the work that they do. In Jesus

26:14

name I pray, Amen.

26:17

Do you remember how you felt after you

26:20

spoke with us? It

26:23

felt like a blur, like I don't even remember

26:25

nothing I said. It's just

26:29

like firing off questions and answers and

26:31

I know I know it was intense

26:34

and I was kind of like drained afterwards.

26:36

Did you leave with any regrets or

26:39

things that you wish you said or didn't

26:41

say? No, the

26:46

only thing that like really weighed on my mind was

26:49

when I do something like this and something's

26:51

gonna be basically

26:53

outside these walls. Like my own concern is

26:55

like who I don't want to re-injure,

26:58

who I injured. I don't want to cause

27:00

more harm to like my family or

27:02

the the families of the victims. That

27:05

was like where my concern was and I

27:08

just recently got in contact with my daughter again

27:10

after 10 years and it's like

27:14

these are things that are out

27:14

there now. She was 12 when I left so she's

27:17

a 22-year-old woman now and it's

27:19

like I don't

27:21

know she's ready to hear something like that but she

27:24

is she's mature. I'll

27:26

give her that.

27:27

Does she know why you're in prison? Oh yeah,

27:30

yeah. Yeah that's got to

27:32

be a hard conversation. Right.

27:35

Yeah.

27:41

Were you prepared for prison? Absolutely

27:45

not. Well considering

27:48

what my occupation was and my crime, the

27:52

prison system was not something

27:54

that was very gentle to me. I was

27:58

able to

27:59

keep it quiet for a long time.

28:04

I was scared for my life. People

28:07

would ask me how much time you got, you

28:09

know, where you from and all

28:11

this stuff and they could kind of put together like what

28:14

you might be in here for. With

28:16

my sentence, it

28:18

was 205 years with nine

28:21

consecutive life sentences. People

28:24

thought, well, you had to have killed somebody or

28:26

multiple people. Also like, oh, hey,

28:28

what are you in for? I'm like, yeah,

28:30

sure. You know, I'd admit to

28:33

a murder, multiple murders in

28:35

order so they wouldn't find this out. So

28:38

I was in fear for a long time.

28:44

After the first interview, I had

28:46

felt kind of unsettled because Eduardo

28:49

just sounded so sincere when

28:51

he was talking about what he had done and the impact

28:54

of it.

28:54

But we couldn't tell if he was being honest about

28:57

the extent of what he did. The

29:00

way he described it in the first

29:02

interview, he sort of implied that

29:04

he felt the women had a choice.

29:06

Right, and obviously, Erlon,

29:09

they didn't have a choice. And

29:11

the more we read about it and the people we

29:14

talked to, it seemed to me

29:16

that in the first interview, he kind

29:18

of, what can I say, like diminished

29:21

the violence of what he had done to those women.

29:24

And so in the second interview,

29:26

we pressed him on that. And

29:28

he told us this story. So

29:31

a warning to listeners, this next

29:33

part is graphic.

29:38

If you want, I could give you an example of

29:42

one of my victims. So

29:47

I seen her walking down the

29:49

street. Is that the time

29:52

of night when women

29:54

would normally walk, either they're looking for

29:56

drugs or they're

29:58

involved in prostitution.

30:02

I pull over and in

30:05

my mind I'm already thinking like what can I get

30:07

on her so I could hold it over her to

30:09

get her to do what I want to do. I

30:14

already had in my mind that I was going to rape her so

30:16

I did everything I could to get information. I

30:20

manipulated her. I said I will give you a ride somewhere

30:22

so you could pick

30:25

up an item that you wanted to buy. She

30:28

got in my car. I drove halfway

30:30

to the designation. I

30:32

parked on the street and

30:34

I still looked for information on

30:36

my computer. I was looking for stuff

30:38

to pin on her so I could

30:41

coerce her to doing what I wanted her to do.

30:46

At one point

30:51

she was just saying just

30:53

take me to jail. She

30:58

couldn't leave the car. The back doors were

31:00

locked. She

31:03

was screaming. She said just let me go. Let

31:06

me go. I said

31:10

not until you give me something. Not until you give me

31:12

something. I

31:14

kind of posed it as like

31:16

give me some information. Give me somebody.

31:19

Give me something.

31:21

I kept asking

31:24

her like did you ever work in the street? Did you

31:26

ever do this? I was kind of pointing her to

31:28

what I wanted without saying it. Finally

31:34

she just agreed

31:37

to whatever I wanted. We drove to this

31:39

crude location where

31:44

I fortunate to have sex. When

31:47

she was in the back of my car she

31:49

was scared.

31:51

She didn't want to do

31:54

what I wanted her to do. Even

31:59

after her death. and her cries and her screams, I

32:02

didn't hear her. I

32:04

said, you're just gonna stay confined. I'm just

32:06

gonna keep you in this space until you agree what I want

32:08

you to do. That

32:11

one right there sticks to me a lot because I could still hear her.

32:16

Yeah, I mean, when

32:19

someone's screaming like that and asking

32:21

for mercy, how do you

32:24

get to a point where you can just tune that out? Because

32:31

I didn't see her. I just see what I wanted.

32:38

And for that, I am truly sorry. You

32:51

know, Nudge, I'm sure there

32:53

are gonna be some that

32:55

says, why are

32:58

we giving it water? A

33:01

platform. Right, and I

33:03

mean, there's a lot of ways to respond

33:05

to that. But I

33:08

think the first is, it's just important

33:11

to try to understand how

33:14

somebody does this. And the only way you're

33:16

gonna get there is by having a conversation

33:18

with them. Right. Can

33:21

you be a victim and ask them, why

33:23

did he do that? And what would your response be? Like,

33:26

if she just said, why didn't you do that? Why?

33:29

Ask the question too. And that's

33:31

the thing I'm working on. But what I can

33:33

tell you right now from what I know is

33:35

that I

33:37

was a poor manager

33:39

of my emotions. I did everything

33:41

I could not to address my problem but find

33:43

the easy way out. Instead

33:46

of like truly meeting my needs, I

33:48

created more chaos in my life. And

33:51

it wasn't just my crime. I did it in

33:55

my regular life too. I was

33:57

unfaithful and I used sex as a

33:59

way to. I needed to

34:01

do this so I could feel better. And

34:04

it got to the point where it was unmanageable.

34:07

I started hurting so many people,

34:09

and I wasn't stopping by myself.

34:12

Someone had to stop me. You

34:16

know, if I were the victim and I heard that, I'd

34:19

be so mad because you're

34:22

saying it like you're just reading a list. Like, I don't

34:24

feel your pain. I don't feel your shame.

34:29

I don't feel that you

34:32

want to die, which I think you should. I'm not saying

34:34

I want you to die, but it's a bit like I would be

34:36

so angry right now. I

34:39

don't know if you're saying that way because you've thought about

34:41

it a lot or because it's an interview and it's

34:43

not real, but I don't feel

34:46

anything from you right now. And maybe we're

34:48

asking you to do something that you can't possibly do. But

34:51

that's my immediate reaction right

34:53

now is I would just want to scream and

34:55

be like, what the fuck? Do you know how

34:57

much you tore me apart?

34:58

Right. And I don't

35:00

see any emotion. That's

35:04

fair. I

35:08

don't know how I tore you apart. I

35:12

don't think I'll able to understand

35:14

how much I tore you apart. What

35:17

I'm speaking on right now is I'm speaking from a

35:19

place where I'm at right now. I'm

35:21

trying to figure out why I did what

35:23

I did and

35:26

if I could learn how to articulate it the best I can so

35:28

you could feel that you

35:31

believe what I'm saying, then

35:33

that's my goal. That's

35:36

what

35:36

I'm trying to do. I want you to know that

35:38

what I did was wrong and I know what I did was wrong

35:41

and I want you to heal from that.

35:44

I'm sorry for what I did.

35:49

And my

35:51

life is committed to making amends and

35:54

to making sure that I do not ever do that again.

35:58

I just don't think that's true. any way for you to

36:00

make me believe that. I

36:04

understand.

36:09

Do you believe them?

36:13

I think that's

36:15

what makes this story so

36:17

difficult and so important, is

36:20

that it

36:23

forces us to ask questions and hear

36:26

answers that we can never count on.

36:29

I have no idea. He

36:32

had so much integrity in front of us, and

36:35

my heart was so open

36:37

to believing him. I

36:39

don't know. I don't know. Yeah.

36:46

I think that he and

36:48

his victims are in an impossible situation

36:52

to ever really know what's

36:54

in somebody's heart. It's just not

36:56

answerable,

36:57

and I think we want things to be

36:59

easier, and that there

37:01

can be a resolution. And I'm

37:03

just worried

37:04

that there never really can be for anyone.

37:08

Or I think you have to be pretty extraordinary

37:10

to really

37:13

be able to forgive and move on, to

37:15

really accept the most horrible thing that you've

37:17

done and figure it out and move on.

37:20

It's really hard for everybody. It

37:23

is.

37:26

I

37:26

mean, how do you find the words

37:28

to describe

37:31

how you feel, how horrible something is? I

37:35

can only tell you the words that I know.

37:38

But like he says, it's

37:41

almost something impossible to explain. How do

37:44

you articulate that?

37:46

I was thinking if I wanted to describe

37:48

my pain to you, if I was

37:51

one of the victims, I could scream,

37:53

I could cry, I could

37:55

pound my fists, I could lunge

37:57

at you. There's all these... physical

38:00

cues that we understand, rage

38:03

and deep sorrow. When

38:06

you're trying to explain

38:07

that I've changed

38:09

or that I feel this deep shame,

38:12

there aren't the same physical cues. Like

38:15

I just said to you, like I wanna see you be emotional,

38:17

but I realize that we don't have a physical

38:20

language

38:20

for showing remorse.

38:23

Showing rage and distress

38:26

is so physical.

38:30

But it occurs to me that it's very hard to physically

38:32

show remorse and have someone

38:34

understand it through their

38:37

body, but it's easy to understand rage.

38:41

The woman that I victimized expressed

38:46

however you feel. If you need to lunge at me,

38:48

punch me, scream, do whatever you can.

38:51

I wanna make myself feel able to actually really hear

38:53

you because I didn't hear you

38:55

before. I didn't see you before,

38:58

but now I'm here in front of you and I will

39:00

hear you, I will see you. And

39:03

I wanna understand.

39:06

That's all I can do. There

39:13

was another thing we knew we had to ask

39:15

him about Erlon and that was

39:17

about being a preacher. Yeah, for

39:20

a man whose crime was about

39:22

an extreme abuse of power,

39:25

the preaching thing was like, oh.

39:30

When you're preaching, do you feel like a power over

39:32

people? To

39:35

be honest, I feel like a nervous wreck up there. I'm

39:38

just like shivering

39:40

me timbers up there, man. Because

39:43

at a reverence of the word of God, I don't wanna

39:47

do nothing that's not gonna honor

39:49

God.

39:50

There is definitely a power in preaching. Does it ever

39:52

trouble you? Because it seems to me your crime was

39:54

also about power and powerlessness. Do

39:57

you ever worry that there's a crossover

39:59

that feeling of power being satisfied

40:02

by preaching? It

40:08

hasn't yet.

40:10

It's not like they said, okay,

40:13

you're a preacher, just get up there and start speaking. And

40:16

then I'll say, I'm that.

40:19

It's like a calling that you know for sure that

40:21

God put it on your heart first. It's like,

40:24

man, I'm inadequate.

40:26

There's no way I can do that. But

40:28

it doesn't even fall on you. The consequences don't fall

40:31

on you. It falls on your obedience to God

40:33

and do what He asked you to do.

40:36

Plenty of people hide behind

40:38

religion as a shield

40:41

or a veil or a protection. Have

40:44

you seen that? Have you witnessed that?

40:47

Hide behind. Yeah. Saying

40:49

that they've been redeemed or that God

40:51

has a plan or this or that, but

40:54

they really haven't changed. It's just another con.

40:58

Right. I

41:01

can't, I'm not God, so I

41:03

can't tell you who's truly redeemed

41:05

and who's not. All I know is

41:09

that we're all broken,

41:11

looking to be made whole, right? And it's like, well,

41:13

welcome to church, you know?

41:15

We're all here, you know? It's a place of growth

41:17

and healing. It's the same reason why you go

41:20

to a hospital. But there's also people

41:22

who have become preachers

41:24

or ministers who are predators. There's

41:26

no doubt. What

41:30

if someone accused you of that? How

41:33

would that feel and how would you respond? Well,

41:36

if they accused me of that? I mean, someone could

41:38

hear the story and think, oh yeah, he's just,

41:41

he's the same dude, but

41:44

he's got God now to put

41:47

forward.

41:49

Well, I hope they wouldn't say that because it's not true.

41:52

But

41:54

people are gonna say stuff like that, you

41:56

know? Thanks

41:58

for watching. When

42:05

we were working on this episode, I really

42:07

spent a lot of time thinking about the ripple

42:09

effect. I mean, there were his victims,

42:12

there was his family, there were the family

42:14

of his victims, the organization

42:17

that he worked for. It just like,

42:20

it went so far out, right? All the people

42:22

that were affected. And so I

42:24

have to say I can see why religion

42:27

and Christianity would appeal

42:29

to him because there's,

42:31

you know, in Christianity, this idea

42:34

of forgiveness

42:35

is huge. According

42:38

to my faith, there's nothing that can't be forgiven.

42:42

Everybody's redeemable. You know, God came

42:44

to die for everybody. It's not just certain people. But

42:46

if we don't talk about God, if

42:48

we talk about other people and we talk

42:50

about ourselves, do you

42:52

think that there's some crimes that can't

42:54

be forgiven from that perspective?

43:02

I think everybody's

43:05

redeemable. The forgiveness

43:07

is for everybody. Without

43:09

forgiveness, it's eye for an eye, you know, the whole

43:11

world would go blind.

43:13

What does forgiveness actually mean?

43:15

What does it look like in this? What happens when

43:18

forgiveness is given?

43:19

Well, when

43:21

forgiveness is given, you're basically like releasing

43:24

a debt. You're not

43:27

going to charge something against someone anymore. You're

43:29

released to know that so you could be free

43:31

of that debt as well.

43:32

But does that mean the person just

43:35

lets that go what they did and

43:38

it's just coughing the wind?

43:39

No, but I think it helps

43:41

them move forward. Can

43:45

you see why it's a struggle? Yeah,

43:47

absolutely. Absolutely.

43:52

How do you think about the victims of

43:54

your crime? I think about

43:56

them all the time. I make

43:58

sure I remember their names.

43:59

I remember if I'm doing work

44:02

I make sure that I name them and yeah it's

44:06

it's it is a hard place to go back to

44:09

because when I talk about it I go back

44:11

to that place when it happened it's

44:14

heavy I guess it's something that just doesn't

44:16

easily come out of me but if

44:18

you ask me I'm I'm able to talk about it the

44:21

shame that comes with something that you did it's like

44:24

it's it's heavy

44:27

sometimes I don't know it sounds weird but sometimes

44:30

I get scared that I might forget their names so

44:32

I like repeat them to myself to make

44:34

sure I know that they're always at the forefront of my

44:36

head.

44:41

So if you sitting in your cell and

44:45

you heard something like this happen to your

44:47

child how would

44:49

you feel? I don't

44:53

know if I'd want to feel something like that. What

45:02

would you want from that man? The

45:08

man who... If someone hurt one of your children

45:10

what would you want from him?

45:19

To be honest I would I would

45:23

have wanted anything I want him to go away

45:25

and never be thought about again.

45:49

Ear Hustle is produced by me, Nigel

45:51

Poor, Erlon Woods,

45:53

Bruce Wallace and Amy Standon. With

45:55

help from Rasaan New York Thomas, Neroli

45:58

Price and Tony Tafoya inside.

45:59

San Quentin. This episode

46:02

was sound designed and engineered by me, Erlon

46:05

Woods, with help from Fernando Arruda.

46:07

It features music by David Josse,

46:10

Antoine Williams, Erlon Woods,

46:12

and Darrell Sadiq Davis.

46:15

Amy Stanton edits the show. Shubna

46:18

Sigmund is our managing producer and

46:20

Bruce Wallace is our executive producer.

46:22

Thanks to acting warden Oak Smith and

46:25

as you know every episode of Ear Hustle

46:27

has to be approved by this woman here.

46:30

I am Lieutenant Gia Mare Berry,

46:33

the public information officer here at San

46:35

Quentin State Prison and I approve

46:37

this episode. This episode was

46:39

made possible by the Jess Trust, working

46:42

to amplify the voices, vision, and power

46:44

of communities that are transforming the justice

46:46

system.

46:46

And please don't forget to sign up for our

46:48

newsletter, The Lowdown. For this

46:51

next issue, a few of us who worked

46:53

on this story wrote more about the

46:55

challenges of putting this together and

46:57

you know commented on some of the things that

46:59

are still lingering with us. Subscribe

47:01

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You can also find out more about

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EarHustle is a proud member of Radiotopia

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creator-owned, and listener-supported podcasts.

47:19

Discover audio with vision at

47:21

Radiotopia.fm. I'm

47:24

Erlon Woods. I'm Nigel Poor. Thanks for

47:26

listening. You know what's on my

47:28

mind these days? How are

47:30

we gonna get all these

47:42

stories

47:47

done this season? Yes, that is true.

47:49

But I'm also daydreaming about summer

47:52

because it's only a few months away and that

47:54

season just brings a whole new vibe.

47:55

I hear you, Nige. And the best thing about summer is

47:57

getting to do all your favorite indoor things.

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things outside. Like what? Like

48:02

sharing meals, watching movies, falling asleep on the

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sofa accidentally. You know, everything's

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and right now I am gazing at my beautiful Article

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stack of books I planned to read this summer. I can

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48:56

Hey, everyone, what are we going to do this summer? Are we going

48:59

to go on a trip? Yeah, I think it's time to go somewhere. Like where? I

49:01

know you

49:01

want to go to Jamaica. Hey listeners,

49:04

it's that time of year.

49:15

It's our annual Ear Hustle fundraiser. Help

49:17

us reach our goal of 1,000 donors

49:19

by supporting us right now on EarHustleSQ.com

49:23

or you can hit the link in the episode notes.

49:25

Everyone who donates will be invited to

49:27

our virtual celebration on June

49:30

8th. And if you have a question for the team,

49:32

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