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1:24

In two thousand and thirteen the Louis College

1:26

of Business in Detroit shut down and

1:29

put itself up for sale the. asking

1:31

price was three point two million dollars

1:34

Three point, two million dollars is not very

1:36

much for a whole college, that's what

1:38

the basketball coach that near by University

1:40

of Michigan makes in one year, but

1:43

apparently that's all Louis College

1:45

of Business was worse. It was small

1:47

private school the first and only

1:50

historically black college or university

1:52

in Michigan hpc use

1:54

have been getting more attention lately but

1:56

again this was two thousand thirteen

2:00

Funding. Wasn't as supportive

2:02

for HPC use as spin in

2:04

the last few years and,

2:07

this was smaller school so he receives

2:09

smaller piece of pie that is

2:11

the. Wayne Edwards Penis family

2:13

recently moved to Detroit, as

2:15

well here today here took personal interest

2:18

in the history of the Louis College

2:20

of. business he tells us it was founded

2:22

in nineteen twenty eight in indianapolis

2:25

by violent louis She

2:27

was one of three black women to found

2:29

in species.

2:31

One of three Ray I didn't know by her are some

2:33

love with her and her story she.

2:35

started the school on a fifty dollar loan and

2:38

she borrowed typewriters

2:40

To teach black women, the skills

2:42

to work in Corporate Offices because

2:44

we weren't allowed to do that time relocating.

2:47

The college from Indianapolis to Detroit had

2:49

out well by the middle of the twentieth

2:52

century. the industry was

2:54

massive. It's easy to

2:56

forget now, but in terms of commercial

2:59

muscle and Innovation, Detroit

3:01

was the Silicon Valley of its time.

3:03

There were a lot of good jobs,

3:05

the first black office employees,

3:08

at General Motors and Ford in Michigan

3:10

or all blue sky. The

3:13

kind of college it made headlines or

3:15

made any top 10 lists few

3:17

people outside of Detroit ever, heard of it, but

3:20

it

3:21

worked if prepared black

3:23

detroiters for decent pay. office

3:25

jobs at its peak in the nineteen

3:27

eighties Louis at five hundred and fifty

3:30

students but as the US auto

3:32

industry Detroit began to

3:34

decline, so did the Louis College

3:36

of Business, government funding started

3:38

drying up, and in two thousand seven

3:41

the school lost its accreditation,

3:43

which meant students couldn't get. Financial aid

3:45

ultimately the doors closed because enrollment

3:48

start to be reduced. in

3:50

closing it's doors the louis college

3:52

of business was not alone hundreds

3:55

of american colleges have been shutting down

3:57

especially since the financial crisis of

4:01

Many others have consolidated.

4:03

In one single year recently, the number

4:06

of four year public universities fell

4:08

by two point, three percent, and the number of community

4:10

called still by two point, seven percent, against

4:13

that a one year decline.

4:16

Over the past five or six years. The

4:18

U.S. colleges and universities have

4:20

lost around one point, five

4:22

million students. What's

4:25

going on major challenge for

4:27

these institutions is increasing costs

4:29

at time when family incomes aren't going up

4:31

for that students that they're trying to recruit. Catherine

4:34

Hill is an economist and former

4:36

president of Vassar College, everybody's

4:39

trying to figure out ways in which they can

4:41

get their costs down and by consolidating

4:43

you can hopefully experience some

4:45

economies of scale.

4:47

Consolidation can create its own problems

4:49

like more students per faculty

4:52

member fewer resources to go around it's

4:55

spying us sometime. I think for innovating

4:57

and doing things differently in the long run. What

5:01

is the law? run for higher education

5:04

in the US. if we were asking

5:06

that question Ten. Or fifteen

5:08

years ago, the answer would have been easy things

5:11

are looking up, we would have said enrollment

5:13

is up, investment is up, the

5:15

lease is up the leave

5:17

the college. Is easily the

5:19

best route to achieving the American

5:21

Dream but, today, today

5:24

different, answer for the first time

5:26

in modern history overall college enrollment.

5:29

is down the lease is down

5:31

and if you are college graduates

5:34

looking at the size of your student loans

5:36

You're probably feeling down to. This

5:39

is the final episode in a series

5:41

we are calling "Freakonomics Radio Goes Back

5:44

to School" so far, we've told

5:46

you how American higher education has

5:48

two distinct models. One

5:51

model is about eliminating. The moment.

5:53

So that there is a special class

5:55

of achievers as. science

5:58

in the other Though his about

6:00

making sure everybody get.

6:02

There. Is we told you how that first

6:04

month of the elite model has been

6:06

accumulating ever more resources

6:08

while educating and ever smaller share

6:11

of U.S. students, educating

6:13

a very small sliver? Of American

6:16

population who already gets tremendous

6:18

resources allocated to them, those

6:20

elite universities are generally thriving

6:23

demand for admission has never

6:25

been higher but, what about everybody

6:27

else what about? The less prestigious

6:30

prize, what about the for, your

6:33

what about, the? community trade

6:35

school is v cu Today

6:38

I'm freakonomics radio we take a look

6:40

at the second model of higher ed and

6:43

why for so many people it is no

6:45

longer work see

6:48

hundred, thousand dollars, has

6:50

debt. burden is dorothy

6:53

we look at why men in particular

6:55

for skipping college

6:56

Capable boy behavior never sit as well

6:59

with the student behavior and.

7:01

We find out if the Louis College of Business

7:04

can make a comeback or we did was

7:06

bar of from nursing schools

7:08

and welding schools in electrical schools

7:11

do you still believe in

7:13

college we'll? find

7:15

out starting right now

7:48

Did

7:50

you add up all the students at all

7:52

the colleges and universities in the U. S. you

7:55

get roughly seventeen million fewer?

7:57

than seven percent of them go to one of

7:59

the Elite schools top of the pyramid

8:02

the majority attend what are called mid

8:04

tier public or private four

8:06

year schools about. twenty five

8:09

percent attend a community college

8:11

or other two years school although nearly

8:13

half of all students start out

8:15

Headed to your school and nearly 10%

8:18

go to for-profit. Colleges of

8:20

the total undergraduate population around

8:23

53% are non-hispanic

8:26

white while 21%

8:28

are Hispanic and 15%.

8:30

black it just under eight percent or

8:34

maybe, those numbers. Surprise you

8:36

a bit maybe not but here's the number

8:38

that certainly surprised me nearly

8:41

sixty percent of all college

8:43

students today are women. that

8:45

is an all time high and remember

8:47

what we told you earlier that us colleges

8:50

and universities have lost about one

8:52

and about half million students in the past several

8:54

years Men

8:56

accounted for seventy one percent

8:59

of that loss. Well it certainly big

9:01

change but not all that own expected

9:03

that's more disappear or he is an

9:05

economist who studies higher education

9:08

and since two thousand and nine he's been

9:10

president of Northwestern University

9:12

he'll be retiring later this year decades.

9:15

ago superhero predicted that the

9:17

gender makeup of universities was

9:19

getting slip Part. Of it was changing

9:22

labor market since changed since

9:24

email Labor Force participation rate, so

9:26

wasn't that hard to predict this so

9:28

called Feminization and Academy bus

9:30

it or not a sociologist. I can't really

9:32

tell you know what's happening: Susie's

9:35

poor men and what's happening to their

9:37

image and why they're college enrollment

9:40

rates as not increase the way it has

9:42

for women. mean, are you concerned

9:44

because we do see research on the deaths of despair

9:46

and so on and longevity declining

9:49

suicide and no decent sauna mean when

9:51

one argued that the?

9:54

Gain and female students can be a strong positive

9:56

but that the last than males could be strong

9:58

negative and maybe.

10:00

They should be done about that yeah I

10:02

agree on one are things we used to tell whole the Liberal

10:04

Arts Colleges was start a football team

10:07

that. is sort of cliff you could fall off once

10:09

he becomes sixty forty female

10:11

man it becomes exponentially

10:14

more difficult to recruit men so

10:16

one reason why some really smart

10:18

schools have football teams is beset

10:20

seventy men right there and we're talking about liberal

10:22

arts colleges sixteen hundreds the

10:25

only need eight hundred you get almost tenth

10:27

of that's just from

10:29

your football team spend your and your

10:31

us ice hockey team and men's

10:33

lacrosse us about helmeted sports

10:35

helmeted wasn't always the case the

10:37

college men were so hard to come by

10:40

If you go back to Nineteen Hundred

10:42

or so, there were only around 250,000

10:45

Americans enrolled in college

10:47

and the overall population was

10:49

about 50-50 male-female. Most

10:52

of the men were getting bachelor's degrees

10:54

at four-year colleges many

10:56

of which were all male, including all the

10:58

Ivy League schools and many

11:00

of the female students were into year

11:02

teachers colleges time education

11:05

was one of the few professions open to

11:07

women and round 25%.

11:10

women in college back then attended

11:12

women's only colleges, most

11:14

famously the seven sisters

11:16

that were meant to parallel the men's

11:18

Ivy League schools. Seven

11:20

sisters were Barnard, bryn Mawr,

11:23

Mount Holyoke, Radcliffe, Smith,

11:25

Vassar and Wellesley.

11:27

The answer was found dead to be

11:30

a wonderful liberal arts institutions and women

11:32

who didn't have the opportunity to go to

11:34

the schools that were all male

11:36

at the time and eighteen sixty five.

11:39

That again is Catherine Hill, a

11:41

former president of Vassar,

11:43

which is in Poughkeepsie, New York, just

11:45

up the river from Manhattan.

11:47

And it decided to go coeducational

11:50

in the late Sixties. The late

11:52

nineteen sixties that is. This is

11:54

a time when many. schools

11:57

were still single sex particular

11:59

the once in the The and.

12:02

The women's colleges and the men's college

12:04

is were recognize saying

12:07

that, high school students were telling them they didn't want

12:09

to go to single sex schools anymore

12:11

The one time there were more than two hundred and fifty

12:14

women's colleges in the U.S. today,

12:16

there are about thirty, so the change

12:19

at Vassar was pretty typical.

12:21

Coming out of civil rights movement,

12:23

the Vietnam war there was a real

12:26

shift away from. Previous

12:28

notions of what was appropriate,

12:31

not appropriate, the world was just

12:33

changing very rapidly.

12:35

Part of that change, as Morty Shapiro

12:37

mentioned earlier was it more women

12:39

were joining the workforce and part

12:41

of the reason for this was the widespread

12:43

availability of birth control.

12:46

But also more women were attending

12:48

college generally. While the

12:50

gender split was around fifty back

12:53

when only a handful Americans went

12:55

to college that. dynamic

12:57

had shifted starting in the nineteen thirties

13:00

and even more after world war two

13:02

when returning soldiers use

13:04

the g i bill to go to college suddenly

13:07

male students outnumbered females

13:09

to the one The over time

13:11

that heavy male imbalance began

13:14

to erode. And then

13:16

flatten and ultimately reverse

13:19

if current enrollment trends continue

13:21

will soon reach a point where for every man

13:23

who receives college degree to

13:26

women will do the same.

13:30

They didn't have a huge chains

13:32

that's Amalia Miller, she is an economist

13:35

at University of Virginia.

13:36

Why? My more women choose to go to college

13:38

the mission as an economist, the way

13:40

you think about it is thinking about the net benefits,

13:43

the costs and benefits of that decision. And

13:45

says a benefit side as college

13:47

could be the earnings you get as college graduate,

13:50

where the side is the earnings you don't

13:52

get that you would have gotten any. Could be

13:54

that that's higher for women than for man

13:57

if you think about some of the non college

13:59

jobs. The service sector that women are

14:01

concentrated in these are some really low paying

14:03

jobs, blue collar occupations

14:05

are jobs that sort of paid decent wage

14:08

that didn't require college, lot of those were

14:10

more male dominated.

14:12

In other words, a man who doesn't go to college

14:14

might get job in construction that pays

14:16

well, whereas woman who doesn't go to college

14:18

would be more likely to work in retail,

14:21

or perhaps as home health aide.

14:23

We could be that even if college

14:25

women earn less than college man, it was

14:27

still more worth it for women because that

14:30

gender gap with smaller. A

14:32

problem without explanation no

14:34

is it doesn't explain the

14:36

increase for. women compared

14:39

to men in recent decades where

14:41

it doesn't seem like blue collar workers had

14:43

great growth in terms of number of jobs or wages

14:46

Though Miller went looking for a deeper

14:48

explanation, See and to

14:50

coauthor's suit, seen Gua and

14:52

Elliot Isaac recently published paper

14:55

which found that college may produce bigger

14:57

benefits for women than men.

15:00

One outcome they measured was future

15:02

earnings for men versus women

15:04

who attended an elite universities.

15:06

There's no effect on earnings from attending

15:09

a more elite school for men

15:11

once you control for applications that admission.

15:13

What we do find significant effect.

15:16

We're quite heavy on women. And

15:18

then, when we look deeper into this effect for

15:20

women, we see that it is coming from including

15:23

part time and nonworking women, the

15:25

women who attended a more selective

15:27

school for college are more likely

15:29

to participate in the labor force. Except

15:31

for women, we find that attending

15:34

school that is more selective leads to

15:36

fourteen percent. The creep in or

15:38

and.

15:39

In other words, the female wage premium

15:41

isn't necessarily driven by having

15:43

a more lucrative career, it's driven by

15:45

college educated women going

15:47

from not working or working part time

15:49

to working full time.

15:51

The question is, does this return

15:53

to greater selectivity also

15:55

apply to I returned to

15:57

schooling at all, and don't think that sucks?

16:00

The leap to make it's just another logical

16:02

step.

16:02

Miller and her coauthors found another significant

16:05

result.

16:06

What we find is that there's

16:09

a significant decline. Women

16:11

likelihood of being married in their late

16:13

thirties if they attended more

16:15

elite school for college if we think

16:17

of marriage is positive outcome, then

16:19

this might suggest bad outcome. The

16:22

one hand there is this career advancement, but

16:24

it happens at the expense of family

16:26

formation, said these women are less likely

16:29

to marry, but when they do marry their marrying men

16:31

who were more educated so.

16:33

One possible explanation for the current

16:35

gender gap on college campuses

16:37

women simply have more to gain

16:39

by going to college especially if they

16:41

are career oriented but.

16:43

amalia miller has another

16:45

very different argument

16:47

Then. Other argument that I give

16:49

when people ask me about this is you have that

16:51

kind of behave well in school,

16:54

you have that good grades, these cultural

16:56

attitudes about good students.

16:58

And and other cultural attitudes about gender and

17:00

sort of what's acceptable behavior for

17:02

boys and girls. Oh boy

17:04

behavior or behavior that for boys

17:06

is socially reward, Ed doesn't fit as

17:08

well with good student behavior.

17:10

This claim may resonate for anyone

17:13

who's ever been a boy

17:15

and parents had a boy. The and is good

17:17

evidence that the gender gap in education

17:20

starts way before college

17:22

in. two thousand and thirteen paper by

17:24

the economists nicole fortune phillip

17:27

fortune yeah plus and sell he fits They

17:29

looked at Sea School (GP), distribution

17:32

for girls and boys from the nineteen

17:34

eighties to the two thousands. Here's

17:36

what they found. The most common GP

17:39

A for girls shifted over that

17:41

time from be. The A.

17:44

The boys, P.P. I stayed

17:46

at be. One label

17:48

it's been attached to this phenomenon is

17:50

leaving boys behind.

17:55

I think the problem is the way

17:57

we treat our boys.

18:00

In k through twelve.

18:02

Ruth Simmons, she rose

18:04

from a share cropping childhood in

18:06

Texas. The become the president

18:08

of three very different institutions of

18:11

higher Ed Smith College in Massachusetts,

18:14

a women school and member of the seven

18:16

sisters. Brown University

18:18

in Providence Rhode Island, member

18:20

of the IB Week. The most

18:22

recently Prairie View am

18:24

an H. B. C. You. Back in Texas.

18:27

Always. "Often get into trouble at

18:29

school, they get very negative messages

18:32

often in school, they turned

18:34

away from some of the

18:37

advantages of school because of

18:39

those negative messages the way

18:41

that" We are orienting

18:43

ourselves toward particular

18:46

behavior of children and

18:48

rewarding. Aldrin, who are?

18:51

It. And submissive and

18:53

do everything that we want them to do,

18:55

that's a formula for girls, okay

18:57

as we tend to be socialized in

18:59

our families, to do exactly that

19:01

to be. Obedient and to

19:04

not resist what we are

19:06

told to do and so forth, and

19:08

so naturally the one thing girls

19:11

good at is staying in school.

19:13

And they can keep going because

19:15

that's what we've been told that we

19:17

should two boys are not quite

19:20

the same.

19:23

The boys aren't being set up to succeed

19:26

in key through twelve, they would follow the aren't being

19:28

set up to succeed in college either. Then

19:31

there's another recent change in college

19:33

admissions that could be exacerbating

19:35

the shortage of male college students tears,

19:38

Zachary Bloomer, an economist at Harvard

19:40

who studies educational and income

19:42

mobility.

19:44

Then. Ninety ninety six California

19:46

passed a ballot proposition that

19:48

prohibited the use of race based affirmative action

19:50

at the University, California, and

19:52

all public universities in the state

19:54

of California consider the. Effect:

19:57

At you, Cla, one of the most selective

19:59

schools in. You see, system. Though

20:01

the year that affirmative action suits

20:04

to black Hispanic population of you see away so

20:06

by sixty percent.

20:07

That was in nineteen eighty six between

20:09

twenty thirteen twenty twenty, you see,

20:11

away expanded by three thousand

20:14

students. Ninety percent

20:16

of those new spots went to women.

20:19

But he didn't just black and

20:21

Hispanic men who were skipping college, according

20:24

to a pell Institute analysis, lower

20:26

income white men are less likely

20:28

to go to college, then they're black,

20:30

Hispanic and Asian counterparts.

20:33

There is one group of men who

20:35

attend college at rates even higher

20:37

than women. Hey, man. More

20:39

than half of all gay men in

20:42

the U.S. twenty five an older. At

20:44

least bachelor's degree. The

20:46

Notre Dame sociologist, jaw middlemen,

20:49

put it. If America as gay

20:51

men formed their own country,

20:53

it would be the world's most highly

20:55

educated by far. That

20:58

fewer than five percent of men

21:00

in the U.S. identify as gay,

21:03

so for the rest of the young men

21:05

who aren't going to college but might benefit

21:08

from it. That should be done.

21:12

Coming! Up after the break

21:14

em intellect I know how hard it is what

21:17

we need is some innovation that would help

21:19

us educate, more students

21:22

at lower costs just.

21:24

Need to figure out how to make it free, and

21:26

if you missed the earlier episodes in this

21:28

college series, you can find them on any

21:30

podcast app while you're there, please.

21:32

Leave leave review, we're reading, that's

21:35

good way to help other people find for economic

21:37

three of and if you really want to help recommend

21:39

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f r e ak.

24:11

The new young, whether or not

24:13

to attend college, is one of the first

24:15

big choices you actually get to make.

24:17

High school was mandated but would you go to college

24:20

people? has made has conscious decision

24:23

to elevate their lives

24:25

By leveraging education.

24:28

That is Donald Rough, he is

24:30

the interim CEO of the Eagle Academy

24:32

Foundation in New York.

24:34

The Eagle County Foundation is and

24:36

as a profit organization with mission

24:38

to educate and power young men

24:40

of color.

24:41

They operate five college prep schools

24:43

in New York City and one in Newark, New

24:45

Jersey.

24:46

Honestly, we saw was happening in

24:48

our communities with the young men in particular

24:51

majesty graduation rates, the high incarceration

24:53

rates as well as the.

24:56

Influences of some of the more negative elements,

24:59

including gangs.

25:00

Their New York schools are part of the

25:02

city's Department of Education, which happens

25:05

to be run by the Eagle academies

25:07

former CEO, David Banks,

25:09

but his Donald Rough tells us his

25:11

schools are different from the standard

25:13

public school.

25:14

What are the things that we want to do is actually create

25:17

school in a culture where young men

25:19

could feel safe, were young

25:22

men kin authentically this?

25:24

The themselves be boys.

25:26

Another big priority is making sure

25:29

they're graduates get into college.

25:31

The New York City nearly sixty percent

25:33

of all public school students go straight

25:35

to college, but that numbers much lower

25:37

for black and Hispanic students

25:40

in New York and elsewhere.

25:42

Going back to twenty nine seen as an example

25:44

them how Jerome rate was about

25:46

thirty seven percent for black students thirty

25:48

six percent for Hispanic students

25:50

and forty one percent for white

25:52

young men and. at that time

25:55

or in rome and rate was that seventy three percent

25:57

The evil academy is plainly

25:59

getting.

26:00

Results: But things have been harder

26:02

recently, especially with a pandemic rough,

26:04

says the young men he educates are

26:06

increasingly turning down college.

26:09

Why? Honestly, I think it's

26:11

the sticker shock.

26:12

I can't speak for everyone,

26:15

but know as. The

26:17

one who grow up low income. The

26:20

see. Hundreds thousand

26:23

dollars has, a debt burden.

26:25

is daunting Russia is

26:27

New Yorker himself. I actually went to

26:29

public school for junior high school and was.

26:33

Discovered in recruited by a program

26:35

called All of Program Where, they

26:37

take high achieving. low

26:40

income students of color and provide them

26:42

with full ride scholarship to attend private school

26:45

Someone should have broken friend school and I

26:47

ended up at Oberlin College, which

26:49

was an incredible experience for me as well.

26:52

The Oberlin, he double majored in history

26:54

and African American studies.

26:56

And even all was poor and so I went to private

26:59

school it was a shock to my system and

27:01

if I'm being honest I've probably lived a.

27:04

lot of my early The years

27:07

after, I graduated from high school college

27:09

would a level of survivor's guilt

27:11

and survivor's remorse, I

27:13

don't think success to be a lottery and

27:15

when I compare my school experience

27:18

with my friends at the. time

27:21

there was some savage inequalities Which

27:23

actually few me to do the very

27:25

work that do today right.

27:27

to seeing the price of college remember

27:30

when we were first signal get

27:33

financial aid packages, and my mother was stating

27:35

how. The year of college

27:37

is more than which he made. The year

27:40

and. you having those type of conversations

27:42

makes you think a little bit differently

27:44

Then, he says, that type of conversation today

27:46

among Eagle Academy students and become

27:49

even more intense.

27:50

Students are making different decisions because

27:52

from and affordability standpoint they

27:55

don't believe that they can afford it. That

27:58

it they're incapable of. achieving

28:00

and doing well in college, but

28:02

okay for years of my life I could be

28:05

earning Vs accumulating all it is dead,

28:07

what is it really leading to? Throughout

28:09

the series about college.

28:11

All the economists we spoke must have

28:13

preached that a college education

28:16

is perhaps the single best long

28:18

run investment you could possibly make.

28:21

That donald rough students don't always

28:23

buy that argument.

28:25

Seeing other examples where guys

28:27

a move guy and degrees are now under employed

28:30

are unemployed, it doesn't make sense

28:32

to them.

28:32

The college graduates is much

28:34

more likely to be employed when someone who

28:37

doesn't go to college and they earn more to.

28:39

That said there's no guarantee, especially

28:42

these days around forty percent

28:44

of recent college graduates are technically

28:46

under employed, meeting they have a job

28:49

that doesn't even require degree.

28:51

Which also means probably doesn't pay very

28:53

well and. there are other reasons

28:55

to think about skipping college

28:58

It's been a major disruptor with their

29:00

certification programs so, suit

29:02

who's incident technology and really

29:04

mean college I can actually are now

29:06

and get these certifications. and

29:09

end up with a pretty good paying job And

29:12

how just can continue to have these arcade

29:14

degree programs would they have

29:16

to figure out how do they have Martin

29:18

credentials of certifications were

29:21

day soon as who are graduating are now

29:23

pipeline into employment and is

29:26

not skilled deficiency.

29:28

Some evil academy graduates tell

29:30

Donald rough they've got different plans entirely.

29:33

I can invest in crypto currency, can be

29:36

a instagram influenza.

29:40

What we need is some innovation that would help

29:42

us educate. more students

29:45

at a lower costs

29:47

That again is the economist and former

29:49

Vassar President Catherine Hill.

29:52

We need to figure out how to offer

29:54

a better quality education

29:56

at lower price point.

29:58

About ten years ago, it seemed.

30:00

That had already been figured out

30:02

at least if you're watching CNN.

30:06

The new online partnership, which is

30:08

what they're calling at Harvard and mit says

30:10

this is the biggest changes education since

30:12

the printing press is the overstating

30:15

it.

30:15

Not the least the way which we

30:17

educate will forever changed it

30:19

has for everything online education

30:22

is coming into was all a.

30:25

batch of start up companies were promising

30:27

to make a college education accessible

30:30

to anyone with anyone internet connection

30:32

one from coursera began

30:34

offering online courses from name brand

30:37

schools like princeton stanford

30:39

and pen They recalled moocs

30:41

or massive open online

30:43

courses as. new york times

30:46

put it in twenty twelve they would

30:48

open higher education to hundreds

30:50

of millions of people They

30:52

were also supposed to drive down the cost

30:55

of education, which for decades

30:57

has been rising way faster

30:59

than inflation. Why have

31:01

college costs increased so much?

31:04

In retrospect, there are a lot of reasons

31:07

many schools added layers of

31:09

administration that didn't use to exist.

31:12

The college itself became more popular,

31:14

it also became more of U.S. consumer good,

31:17

which meant competing for students by offering

31:19

better dorms, better food, bigger

31:22

fitness centers, more extravagant

31:24

extra curricular. The

31:26

federal government also began making more loans

31:28

available, which gave colleges the me

31:30

way to raise tuition further. But

31:33

also the primary mode of

31:35

classroom education: professor

31:37

up front of bunch of students in their seats.

31:41

That didn't change much and therefore

31:43

higher Ed didn't take advantage of new

31:45

technologies to become more productive,

31:48

which is what happens in most industries. Colleges

31:51

may hire lot of adjunct professors

31:53

to save on costs, but even so the

31:55

still paying humans are relatively

31:58

high wage to perform at. Asked

32:00

that is not becoming more efficient,

32:03

economists call this cost disease

32:05

when productivity does not keep

32:07

up with cost. Eating

32:10

students online, however. That

32:12

was supposed to solve this problem, it was scale

32:14

bomb, it was fish and it was

32:16

cheap. This person. There's

32:19

just one thing. Most people

32:21

don't like it. The best evidence

32:23

for this was the Kobe nineteen sit

32:26

down.

32:27

The whole world, my online an

32:30

education, went on mine. And

32:32

we learned fundamentally that it just

32:35

doesn't work.

32:36

That is Pugno Cannellis, nellis who used

32:38

to be President St John's College

32:40

in Annapolis, Maryland.

32:42

Online education just doesn't work whether it's

32:44

for K through twelve or and higher education.

32:47

That may be an overstatement, but

32:49

there is evidence that online schooling

32:51

doesn't do what it's boosters said

32:54

it would. Some research has shown

32:56

that students who go to class in person

32:58

do better on several dimensions than the

33:00

ones to study online. Then. In person,

33:02

students get better grades, they're more likely

33:05

to do the follow up coursework and the more

33:07

likely to graduate, and some of these

33:09

are randomized that, he said, they're not. Just

33:11

measuring the differences between the kind

33:13

of students who choose in person attendance

33:16

over on mine. And

33:18

there's another piece of evidence in favor

33:20

of in person attendance. What

33:22

economists call revealed preferences.

33:25

There's some corporations around Mid Town

33:27

Manhattan that are not fully back and person,

33:30

right?

33:30

McGill are key all it is, an economist at Columbia

33:33

who studies higher ed.

33:35

The other hand: if you go to a camp was like Princeton,

33:37

everyone is back in person and to me that

33:39

reveals that what they're selling isn't part of

33:41

personal experience and that's what people want

33:43

to buy. Though if online learning

33:45

isn't the answer. What is? I

33:48

know, can Ellis as an idea?

33:51

He thinks he knows why so

33:53

many fewer people are enrolling in counties

33:55

days, especially young men. One

33:57

of the main promises of a collie.

34:00

The education. That it opens

34:02

your mind to new ideas, new

34:04

bodies of knowledge, new ways

34:06

of thinking. What he says that on many

34:08

college campuses, that promise

34:10

is not being kept.

34:12

I've spent a few decades and higher education

34:14

and, as had literally,

34:17

dozens of conversations with students

34:19

and faculty who have.

34:21

The author was closing in the classroom

34:24

or in the ambient culture of their institution

34:27

the. statistics are out there and sixty

34:30

six percent of students

34:32

in higher education say they self censor

34:35

Though censor, as in not

34:37

speaking their minds out of a concern, though,

34:39

be singled out as intolerant sporks

34:42

politically incorrect. And

34:44

yes, the statistics are

34:46

out there, the Center for the Study

34:48

of partisanship an ideology recently

34:51

published research, which found that more than eighty

34:53

percent of Ph.D. students were

34:55

quote willing to discriminate

34:57

against right leaning scholars.

35:00

Meanwhile, more than a third

35:02

of conservative professors and phd

35:04

students say they have been quote

35:06

disciplined or threatened with

35:09

discipline for their views. It

35:11

has long been established, the college administrators

35:14

and faculty members mean overwhelmingly

35:17

left, so we shouldn't be surprised

35:19

they create environments conducive

35:21

to students who do the same. The

35:24

drafting why college enrollment

35:26

has been falling, especially among

35:28

young men. Now, in

35:31

addition to all the reasons we've already heard

35:33

about including costs. One

35:35

reason may be that lot of

35:37

potential college students. Simply

35:39

feel unwelcome on most college campuses

35:42

and so Panama Canal this is doing

35:44

something about that.

35:46

The University of Austin is a university

35:48

that in the process of being

35:50

developed and belts in Austin Texas

35:53

it's. going to be america's newest university

35:56

No, it is it's first

35:58

president. The university.

36:00

Or Boston is presenting itself as

36:02

a college devoted to liberal ideals

36:04

of free speech, as opposed to

36:06

woke ism and political correctness.

36:09

The universe is will never be perfect places I.

36:11

think what we need to do in higher education

36:14

make sure that were looking

36:16

at these trends was our eyes wide

36:18

open and doing what we

36:20

can to minimize the pernicious

36:23

effects A

36:25

culture that might be trying to disallow

36:28

certain ideas are silence, folks

36:30

or punish. Especially

36:33

young people students for things that they may

36:35

have said. That are out of

36:37

tune with prevailing orthodoxies

36:40

I'm. in their heart breaking stories out

36:43

there and i can't imagine something we should be taking

36:45

more seriously The making

36:47

sure that our students have the ability

36:49

to be intellectually risky

36:52

to. express themselves sincerely

36:56

The be wrong to stand corrected to correct

36:58

other people you, have that kind

37:00

of robust exchange

37:03

of the things that we sink we know

37:05

or do know are believed to know. that's

37:08

how we learn both individually and as institutions

37:11

Nemo says he also wants to reform the business

37:13

side of higher ed.

37:15

Higher education is locked in the

37:17

iron triangle of finance. That.

37:20

Is that the whole financial model is built

37:22

upon three points one is collecting

37:24

tuition the, other as

37:26

philanthropy in the third is grants that

37:28

come from outside each of those?

37:30

Is problematic right now to wish him is

37:32

rising much more rapidly than

37:35

families can afford, the grandson

37:37

things to come from outside are, inconsistent science

37:40

or be. is declining i

37:42

think you have to radically reduce

37:45

The operating expenses of institution.

37:48

Every single blade of grass it's mode every

37:50

single sushi bar, every

37:53

single fountains, all of that is paid

37:55

for by students. Administrative

37:57

costs are vastly over bomb. The

37:59

recent. Record at Yale now has as many

38:01

administrators as undergraduates. The

38:04

finder, Yale, I mean, it's okay, don't

38:06

know what those people do have been who's the institution

38:08

serving offensive.

38:13

Where are you knock, you know, I think there are a real

38:15

issues of freedom, speed since independence

38:18

and dialogue.

38:19

That again is Morty Shapiro, the long

38:21

time president of Northwestern University.

38:24

The what does he think that the new university of Austin?

38:27

I. Can I chuckled when saw the whole thing if

38:29

you're going to try to greater score, you probably don't

38:31

do it in the most rapidly rising it's

38:33

real estate prices in? The world Austin

38:35

in us elect, know how hard it

38:38

is, this is my business, it's hard to create

38:40

a university, it helps to have couple hundred

38:42

years of history. There.

38:45

Whether or not it's successful the University

38:48

of Austin is pursuing one traditional

38:50

model of the American University

38:52

a high minded exploration big

38:55

ideas in, concept

38:57

at least this fits into be week

38:59

competitive model of higher education. but

39:02

that's only one of the models we've been talking

39:04

about during this series What about

39:06

all the other students and potential

39:08

students? We're looking for more practical

39:11

college experience.

39:13

What? If there was a place that combined traditional

39:15

college environment with practical

39:18

certification program and

39:21

what if the education was freak

39:23

I did go to college, there was no money.

39:26

No money for me to go to college that

39:28

again is doing Edwards, whom we met

39:30

at the start of this episode he was

39:32

in Detroit now, but he grew up in. Los

39:34

Angeles, the youngest six kids

39:36

raised by a single mom.

39:38

The had always been a talented artist

39:40

and he loved designing sneakers or

39:42

discovered Cannoli in my senior year

39:45

wanted to be designer.

39:46

And I didn't know that you need a portfolio

39:49

my Gyn council didn't know that she.

39:52

actually discouraged me from being designer

39:54

telling me that no black keys from inglewood whatever

39:56

design shoes for living As someone

39:59

who grew up with.

40:00

College as an option if you had not

40:02

had this drives and

40:05

talent feared designing sneakers

40:07

what. do you think you would a wound up doing

40:10

In Inglewood.

40:11

Eighteen is Atlanta, if I can get there are.

40:13

alive or not, and you. We

40:16

one. The miracle if I'm not

40:18

dead or in jail.

40:19

Have some friends that are not here anymore,

40:21

but have some friends that are just getting

40:24

out. That's is part is

40:26

grown up. Thanks to a talent.

40:29

And with the help of some teachers, Edwards

40:31

took a different path. You went on

40:34

to become one of the top shoe designers

40:36

in the country, spent many years at nike

40:38

working with Michael Jordan and Carmelo Anthony.

40:41

The got more than fifty design patents.

40:44

Along the way. Or hearing from

40:46

kids who loves sneaker design

40:49

as much as he did.

40:50

That was the first time they saw somewhere,

40:52

the looks like them in, so they were just email

40:54

me saying, "Hey, you know, I really want to be a designer,

40:57

and in oh, do you have any tips and

40:59

so I saw myself in them?" And

41:02

started mentoring kids in those kids would go

41:04

to college and then they would become

41:06

my interns and then they will become

41:08

nike employees and their sit next

41:11

to me drunk suits professionally getting

41:13

paid and. that to

41:15

me mattered a whole lot more than

41:17

any athlete ever worked for worked

41:19

any entertain ever worked with

41:21

Twenty ten after a long stretch

41:23

at Nike Edwards took sabbatical

41:26

and he created course on shoe

41:28

design at the University of Oregon.

41:30

That was my first I'm gonna crowds was Tc

41:33

never, happens here is stupid it. it

41:35

crafted this to week program

41:38

And he was two weeks because in real time,

41:40

that's how much time we had to design issue

41:43

from start to send us and so as like

41:45

I let me design this course.

41:47

Through the lens of either you're

41:49

gonna love this or hate it because

41:51

is so much work and as intense crafted,

41:54

the to he course slew and thirty

41:57

eight students. he was fourteen

41:59

days Twelve to fourteen hours every

42:01

day straight through like we didn't take a

42:04

break and. the kids loved they

42:06

want to leave Edwards loved

42:08

it, too. The wound up quitting his

42:10

job at night.

42:12

In partnership with the University of Oregon,

42:15

he started the pencil footwear

42:17

design academy that's P. E.

42:19

N. S. O. L. E.

42:22

Yeah, so I was born with the gift to drawing the

42:24

could see in ever since was a little

42:26

person I was using a number two pencil.

42:29

And when I wanted to create an academy

42:31

of my own, my start thinking of names

42:33

as like a Edwards academy doesn't sound right

42:35

to mchenry doesn't sound right and

42:37

so I looked up the word pencil and "phonetic

42:40

spelling" was p. N. S. O. L. And

42:42

then was like oh well close to soul

42:45

as in sneakers or added a aeon to it

42:47

and ultimately. some marriage between

42:49

the instrument that instrument use and the industry

42:52

that industry use it in

42:53

The for long Edwards was invited to bring

42:55

his program to some of the most established

42:57

design schools, M. I. T. Parsons,

43:00

the holding school in Denmark.

43:02

into In was is immersed into.

43:05

curriculum agitation all these things and

43:07

then i start to realize like School

43:09

is all backwards my kissed his

43:12

back to. hit the

43:14

hell knew what he mean by that

43:16

The I researched the beginning of

43:18

education.

43:19

And it was a place that you would go to learn

43:21

skilled trade and get job simple

43:24

right okay the oncologist came and then

43:26

universities came and they can be bigger mess

43:28

the. part that was missing was

43:30

the relationship between the school

43:33

the student and the industry

43:35

Schoolers become about money in

43:37

know about. That kid is being

43:39

taught in what happens when they graduate

43:42

and can they get a job? As

43:44

hiring manager for twenty five years I'm

43:46

seeing five six hundred portfolios

43:49

every year of. some kid

43:51

that has that mortgage payment They

43:54

graduated and there's no

43:57

way in hell they're good measure up the.

43:59

school The student and the industry.

44:02

They were connected to very beginning and

44:04

the more we went into

44:06

this were the vegetation they.

44:09

become further and further disconnected

44:11

With the pencil academy Edwards wanted

44:13

to reconnect all the actors he,

44:16

set to work designing a different business model

44:18

One big focus was putting

44:20

the costs and not by a little

44:23

bit.

44:23

I knew wanted it to be free, I didn't

44:25

need to figure out how to make it free, so

44:28

was the answer to that basically habit

44:30

funded by industry partners or potential

44:32

industry partners yet because they are the beneficiaries

44:34

of the salad.

44:35

So far, pencil has partnered with

44:37

shoe and apparel firms, including

44:40

Nike, of course, but also adidas

44:42

and new balance, as well as Jimmy

44:45

Choo and Versace and brands like

44:47

Herman Miller, too.

44:48

What the corporations and I asked them, what

44:50

are you want and they said that we would want the

44:52

kids to be mature? The want

44:54

him to be responsible. Then we

44:57

want him to have the skills and knowledge to be

44:59

able to work as soon as we get them

45:01

it. The problem was

45:03

these kids were coming and image sure they

45:05

were coming in now, understanding time management,

45:08

they were coming in the understanding, professionalism

45:11

they weren't taught those things in school. Though

45:14

Edward's top professionalism.

45:16

Simple things show up at nine o'clock,

45:19

eight, forty five is one time if you're

45:21

late, you do fifty pushups permanent get

45:23

out of here at school at school.

45:25

Indiana. Go to a point where the

45:27

kids are like, "You know, this is not fair city

45:30

of like or whatever other offices sexier

45:32

really good idea came from one of our employees"

45:34

Who was former student, he was like, "You

45:36

should make the students before the final

45:38

presentation explain to the brand

45:41

how often they really in how

45:43

many minutes they relate"

45:45

So now they have a choice, push ups or

45:47

you would meet your flaws to the person

45:49

is trying to hire you.

45:54

The vast majority of pencil student

45:56

so far are young men. If

45:59

Edwards can grow. The pencil, like he wants

46:01

to grow up, that might shrink

46:03

the mail college student deficit a

46:05

little bit. The where

46:07

was he going to build this academy,

46:09

the offered free education and

46:12

job afterwards? Well, he'd

46:14

recently learned about an abandoned

46:16

college that used to train women

46:18

for good jobs in a thriving industry.

46:21

The Louis College of Business in Detroit.

46:24

A friend of mine, he lives in Detroit and

46:26

we were just having a conversation is like Air Detroit,

46:28

use AvNi Bc on my lightweight stop

46:31

time outlet.

46:32

It took some doing and legal maneuvering,

46:34

but with the help of Michigan politicians,

46:36

do you mean Edwards is on the way

46:39

to reopening Louis College, it

46:41

will be the first time a historically

46:43

black school has been reopened? Edwards

46:46

things the H. B. C. U. designation will

46:48

be particularly helpful and cultivating

46:50

black design town.

46:52

"We're still so far behind

46:54

with in the design industry multiple

46:56

industries I did, a study like

46:58

three years ago is probably worse now, but

47:00

three years ago there's ninety six design schools

47:03

and colleges in the United States.

47:05

The average in Rome is less than ten percent of African

47:07

Americans. To present graduate

47:09

and I would argue. One person

47:11

in a to was not good enough diary anyway, so

47:14

it's really one percent.

47:15

That's the number Edward's wants to raise

47:18

the new college is called the pencil

47:20

Louis College of Business and

47:23

Design classes have just

47:25

started.

47:26

For. Now the program is still relatively short

47:30

so, we started for two weeks now we're five

47:32

weeks to twelve weeks and then went to grow

47:34

into two years and so we.

47:36

Partner with the brand's when I say we partner

47:39

with the brand's if you're an adidas and

47:41

you want to do a program with us, all

47:43

right we sit down and. Craft the curriculum together

47:46

exactly what you want the kids to learn

47:49

how many students you want exactly

47:51

what professions you want them to learn. in

47:54

so we co-create everything with the brand

47:56

so everything we do is really customize

47:58

for every person that we were When? I'm

48:00

Mike, lot of college programs these days, the

48:03

goal here is concrete: each

48:05

of those programs lead to some

48:07

form of internship for the students

48:09

for select number of students. In that class,

48:12

whenever we have programs at

48:14

the end of it, there's kids are getting jobs

48:17

at into those programs, Edwards did

48:19

not see himself as any sort of college

48:21

revolutionary. He. Sees himself

48:24

as someone who realize that college has become

48:26

too expensive to, inaccessible

48:29

and to divorce from its original

48:31

goals, and then he found

48:33

way to do something. About are we did was

48:36

borrow from nursing schools

48:38

and welding schools welding electrical schools

48:40

and, carpentry we didn't really

48:42

invent anything dark roots

48:45

or by in those jobs that built. This

48:47

country skiing frites so skiing

48:49

do think education is headed for assist

48:51

it is headed from. the traditional way

48:54

of doing things and to have more

48:57

entrepreneurial and more corporate

48:59

structure that is more geared towards

49:02

Our allies in pure

49:04

career development a.

49:06

do think that is where we're headed

49:09

Do you think

49:11

that's where we're headed?

49:13

You like that direction I'd,

49:15

love to hear what you thought about this

49:17

episode and this whole series freakonomics

49:19

radio goes back to school tell us

49:22

what you liked we didn't what

49:24

we missed we'd like to hear in the future

49:26

also add you feel in general about

49:28

these occasional series we produce

49:31

we usually do one or two each year we're

49:33

working on another one right now about

49:35

block chain technology and crypto currencies

49:38

You have any other ideas for series you'd like

49:40

to hear all, your feedback

49:43

is welcome always at Radio

49:45

at freakonomics dot.com, com will

49:47

be back next week with a sneak

49:49

preview of sneak new show from the

49:52

freakonomics radio network until then

49:54

take care of yourself and if yourself can

49:56

someone else to

50:02

Sick.

50:04

And I'm afraid he was produced by Stutter and rendered

50:06

radio this college series was produced

50:09

by expertly, my opinion: "I

50:11

sat with Pinsky, our sap

50:13

also includes Deborah Ross Red Ribbon"

50:16

Ryan Kelly, Ripa for the Douglas more than

50:18

Levy Julie Camper, Eleanor Osborne's

50:20

Jasmine Klinger, amateur elleSmere, thou

50:22

didst Jacob Clemente and Arena Common

50:25

We had helped this week from Jeremy Just. Also,

50:27

this week's say hello

50:30

to kneel Caruso, who was joined

50:32

the freakonomics radio team from NPR

50:34

another fine team, and

50:36

we also say goodbye to Suisse to

50:38

Allison. Said Low has been with us for nearly seven

50:41

years and married to do with

50:43

your for, two hours and Mary

50:45

helps produce mary lot of the work you've

50:47

enjoyed. Over the past several, years so big

50:50

thanks to both of them the best of luck,

50:52

in the future or theme song is

50:54

Mister, Fortune or the hitchhikers all the.

50:56

Other music was composed by movie Scare

50:59

You can get the entire archive of freakonomics

51:01

radio on any podcast app if

51:04

you would like to read a transcript or the show.

51:06

notes that at freakonomics as

51:09

always thanks and The

51:12

way that they go to school.

51:15

You don't go to work two days and yeah,

51:17

for a couple hours every day, hey

51:19

speak for yourself I'm pretty lazy.

51:27

On the radio network, they hadn't

51:29

played of everything.

51:33

I get. your

51:40

I'm who are you, I'm you

51:43

from the future here to get our house.

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Ready for summer with Ikea to take

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our coffee in bed or on the balcony.

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I want to read outside or

51:52

in our comfy new chair. How

51:54

the this during card those

51:56

in the garden so he could shake it up with our

51:58

guess, wow?

52:00

Thanks teacher, me, thank yourself

52:02

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