1:59

weight related so we get into that. So

2:02

there's so much good stuff

2:04

in this. If you've ever been struggling with some of those questions

2:06

like, okay I've been binge free

2:09

now for X amount of months or years

2:11

when can I start to think about maybe

2:13

doing a little bit of a weight loss. That's

2:15

been one of the pressing questions I know so many people have

2:17

struggled with. So we cover all that in today's episode.

2:19

I wanted to let you know we're at the very

2:22

beginning of October and I

2:24

know last month I was encouraging you to

2:26

fill out the form in the VIP emails

2:28

for a potential slot

2:31

for one-on-one coaching if you needed

2:32

that help. You can continue

2:34

to fill out that form. We like to have

2:37

alternates for all of our calls in

2:39

case any of them fall through which that does happen

2:41

pretty frequently and we will

2:43

be having slots available in November and December.

2:45

So I always have slots available. I just had

2:48

a larger amount in October

2:50

so I just want to encourage you to continue to fill out the

2:52

form if you need some help especially

2:54

going into the new year. One of the

2:57

other things I wanted to make sure you were aware of

2:59

is we are still releasing Sarah's coaching

3:01

series. Sarah has gone through multiple

3:04

things that she's been working on so if you're

3:07

somebody who wants to follow

3:09

a series where you're getting to hear somebody getting

3:11

coached week to week, month

3:13

to month, what that process is like.

3:16

We are going to be releasing the 16th

3:19

coaching call next week and

3:21

that's going to be going out to our podcast premium subscribers

3:23

and we have approximately 20 calls in

3:26

total so that series is 20 calls and there's

3:28

a reason it's extremely long so I don't want

3:30

to spoil it for anybody who's just getting into

3:32

it now but again this particular

3:35

coaching series takes a few twists and turns.

3:38

Very good twists and turns but definitely twists

3:40

and turns. So if you are somebody who

3:43

you're listening to the podcast you're like I love

3:45

this content, I want more of this content.

3:48

If you want all 608 episodes,

3:51

if you want to get to hear somebody being coached

3:54

from beginning till we kind

3:56

of take a hiatus but but long-term

3:59

coaching I have the Carolina coaching series

4:01

which is perfect if this if this

4:03

episode interests you because it was all about her

4:05

binge eating and in the Carolina series

4:08

and if you are someone who's just wanting to focus

4:11

on sustainable weight loss I would definitely

4:13

check out the Sarah coaching series that

4:15

all being said if you are interested in all of that

4:17

Please go to half-size-me.com forward slash

4:20

fan You can sign up there and

4:22

become a subscriber and you

4:24

will be getting tons of content So for example,

4:26

you will get to hear the Lisa coaching call for next

4:29

week where we basically start to talk about How

4:32

she can start to prioritize taking care of

4:34

herself just by putting a simple meal

4:36

plan together She's really struggling

4:38

with which diet to go on because she's having

4:40

a shoulder issue And she doesn't know she should

4:43

go on one to help with inflammation Or

4:45

she should focus on weight loss And I think you'll

4:47

be really surprised to hear what I suggest

4:49

to Lisa to prioritize that

4:51

will help with all of it That's

4:54

coming up in next week's episode So if you would like

4:56

all that again go to half-size-me.com forward slash

4:58

fan And I hope you really

5:00

enjoy this episode with Katherine Hansen from

5:03

brain over binge She is awesome and

5:05

a great resource that I would highly recommend you

5:07

check out you guys have a great

5:09

week And I'll talk to you soon All

5:15

right lovely listeners on for her

5:17

second time at least I think at this point

5:19

is miss Katherine Hansen from brain over

5:22

binge Katherine would you like to say hello

5:24

to everybody? Yes, thank you so

5:26

much Heather for having me on and hello to all

5:28

your listeners. I'm really excited to be here today Awesome.

5:31

Well as I was telling you before

5:33

I hit record I opened up my inbox

5:36

today and I always get like I know a digest

5:38

of all the emails that came in that were

5:40

supposed to Come to me and this one just

5:43

really made me smile because I knew I was gonna record

5:45

with you today And I wanted to share this with you. It says

5:47

hi Heather I could not thank you enough

5:49

for all you do and the hard work of half-size-me

5:51

I have lost about 140 pounds

5:53

since 2020 and there is absolutely

5:55

no way I'd be able to be successful without your advice

5:57

and seemingly common-sense information

5:59

YouTube and these emails. Specifically,

6:02

thank you for the discussion around the lower

6:04

brain and changes to our thinking. On

6:07

your recommendation, I just finished reading

6:09

Brain Over Binge by Catherine Hanson and

6:12

it has been life changing, all caps.

6:14

This sounds silly, but I never considered

6:17

myself a binge eater, just someone

6:19

who had little self control once

6:22

I had a treat and then allowed myself to

6:24

continue, of course, with Houd for

6:26

time period because I didn't purge in any

6:28

way. But as I started reading, I

6:30

cried. I feel like she

6:32

was describing

6:33

me. Instead

6:34

of herself in the mental struggle of

6:36

binging she had, I could go

6:38

on and on, but it's the best to simply say

6:41

a huge thank you to you for everything you do

6:43

and speaking about half size me areas, my life is

6:45

better and I'm healthier because of it.

6:48

How awesome is that? Wow,

6:50

that's amazing. To the person who wrote that, I'm

6:53

so glad that my book resonated with you and

6:55

it really means a lot to me. Yeah, her name was Shelly

6:58

and I just, I love the fact that your

7:00

words stopped her

7:02

from being in this kind of almost, I called it

7:05

like an insane cycle. Like we wake up

7:07

every day, we think we know what

7:09

we wanna do, we're very clear with our prefrontal

7:11

cortex what we want for ourselves. And

7:14

then strangely through the day, we

7:17

feel like this little gremlin keeps popping

7:19

up and making these terrible recommendations

7:22

that lead us down this road to self sabotage.

7:24

And I know for me, and I'm sure you can attest

7:27

to this, I thought I was insane

7:29

for a while. Like I thought, this can't

7:31

be, this isn't normal, right? And your

7:33

words brought her to tears because she finally

7:36

felt understood and seen.

7:39

Now things are starting to make sense. And

7:42

so I can't believe this is the only email you've

7:44

ever heard like this, but in all the time

7:46

since you've created your book, what,

7:49

because that was a long time ago, right? Your first book, your

7:51

first edition was a long time ago. What impact

7:54

do you see this having and kind

7:56

of how have things changed for you since you

7:58

wrote that very first edition?

8:01

Yeah, thanks for that question. And just

8:03

for all of that, I mean, that's really

8:05

been my mission since the beginning is to

8:07

help people understand that they're not crazy,

8:10

and they're not alone. And I think my story

8:12

that I shared in Brain Over Binge, and I published

8:15

that back in 2011 was when I published

8:17

the first edition, and it was really to just

8:19

get my story out there because I feel like, you

8:22

know, so many people struggle with this, but

8:25

not a lot of people talk about it. And I think that's changing.

8:27

And I hopefully my book has been a part

8:29

of that. But I think people see themselves like,

8:31

like Shelley, in my story, and

8:33

in that struggle of knowing better, but

8:36

still getting caught up in these terrible habits,

8:38

and it can really make you feel crazy, like you

8:40

said, and just learning to understand

8:43

the different parts of your brain and how it's really not

8:45

you, you know, the part of you that wants to sabotage

8:47

that wants to binge that has these urges.

8:49

It's sort of a lesser part

8:51

of yourself. And when you can learn to understand that it

8:54

just opens up a whole new world for you,

8:56

where you can make choices that are in your

8:58

best interest, and you can go after what you want without

9:01

the binging constantly getting in the way. So to

9:03

answer your question about, you know, what has changed

9:05

for me, I've really just kind of continued the

9:07

mission that I set out with when I first started

9:10

writing my own story. Brain

9:12

Over Binge was 2011. And then I actually

9:14

just published a second edition this year,

9:17

actually last year, sorry, the days go by

9:19

quickly, in 2022. And

9:21

it's really, you know, it's fundamentally still

9:23

my story, but I just updated it in some places

9:26

and streamline some things and made some things kind of

9:28

line up with more of my current beliefs.

9:30

But yeah, fundamentally, it's the same. And now

9:32

I have an online course, we have coaching

9:35

are amazing, which we talked about this little

9:38

before we started recording, we have coach Julie, who

9:40

helps people with one on one coaching a group coaching,

9:42

and, you know, I've just really tried to continue to add

9:44

things that would help each individual,

9:47

you know, give people what they

9:48

need in order to overcome this.

9:50

Yeah, and imagine when you first wrote

9:52

the very first edition, which I'll be honest with you, I

9:54

apologize, I've not read the second edition, I read

9:56

the first one, and then I've read the recovery

9:59

guide, which I I love the recovery guide and I

10:01

highly encourage a lot of my community members

10:03

to get it, read it,

10:04

follow it, because I see it

10:06

as being a really solid practical

10:09

like way to start to work on

10:11

it. But what I'm curious about is

10:13

one of the things that I'm sure over time

10:15

working with people day in and day out around

10:18

the subject, what have you had

10:20

to kind of like sometimes maybe modify

10:23

or change when explaining it to people

10:25

because sometimes it resonates one way with us.

10:28

But we notice with our coaching clients and the people

10:30

we come in contact with, we may have to explain

10:32

it in different ways to make it resonate

10:34

with them. What have you seen in regards

10:36

to that? Yeah, that's a good question.

10:39

I think it's something I tried

10:41

my best to address in the second

10:43

edition is that I've really come to a place

10:45

where just every realizing

10:48

that every individual is on their own journey. And

10:51

you know what worked for me, is it necessarily

10:54

what's going to work for someone else even though

10:56

a lot of the concepts can be applied. So someone

10:58

might learn about the lower brain, but still

11:00

need some help in the area of you know, learning

11:02

to eat normally or you know, they

11:04

may need a therapy or something like that. I

11:07

mean, in my case, like I talked a lot in the book about how

11:10

different concepts I learned in therapy didn't

11:12

really help me and in some ways kind of perpetuated

11:14

the cycle because it made me feel I had all these

11:16

deep emotional reasons for binging,

11:19

which kind of served to solidify the habit in

11:21

my own mind in my own life. But

11:23

you know, other people feel like it does

11:25

have this really strong emotional component. So they

11:27

do feel like they need the therapy alongside. So

11:30

I think as far as yeah, what's changed is

11:32

just I've, you know, expanded a little more

11:35

and try to just meet people where they

11:37

are and help them with some tools

11:39

and some understanding of the brain. And then

11:42

they can bring in whatever else helps them. So

11:44

love that. Yeah.

11:46

And that's what I find I'm really having to do within our community too,

11:48

because a lot of our community members do struggle with

11:50

binge eating, but they also would like to lose

11:52

weight. So there's this first off this immediate

11:55

a problem because

11:56

we have two opposing what I

11:58

would call goals, right? to

12:00

lose weight, but we also have this binge eating and

12:02

I always tell them put the weight loss on the back burner

12:04

and focus on the binge eating first because you

12:06

and I both know that for most

12:09

people, binges are going to be in the upwards of

12:11

hundreds,

12:11

if not thousands of calories. So if

12:13

that's happening on a regular basis,

12:15

it's kind of like wanting to take a boat

12:18

out into

12:18

the ocean, but you keep throwing the anchor overboard.

12:22

You have a hard time

12:22

going somewhere, right? So I

12:25

find that yeah, sometimes changing how you explain

12:27

it or constantly maybe finding

12:30

new ways to have it click and make sense

12:32

can be really helpful for those who struggle

12:34

with it. So no, I really appreciate

12:37

all that. And then what I kind of wanted

12:39

to hear from you about is we had

12:41

many community members ask questions and one

12:44

of the questions they had was how

12:46

do I know when it would be safe

12:49

to go from switching, from focusing

12:51

on recovering from binge eating

12:52

to weight loss after maybe having

12:55

this issue for a long time? Like,

12:57

do you see in people a point

12:59

at which they really get this is their

13:01

lower brain and they really get that they can dismiss

13:04

it? And if they don't get super restrictive

13:06

with their eating, that weight loss is possible

13:09

to transition into?

13:10

Yeah, that's a great

13:12

question too. And I do think it kind of goes back

13:15

to that individual journey, because

13:17

I agree with you and I love that about your work

13:19

that binging has to be stopped first.

13:21

That's something I really, really tried to encourage

13:24

people. I mean, in my approach, I have

13:26

two basic goals. And the first goal

13:28

is to dismiss the urges to binge to really learn

13:31

that those urges are the cause of the binging

13:33

and learn how to respond to them differently

13:35

to stop acting on them. And then the other goal

13:37

is to eat adequately, which is to eat

13:39

enough food. If you're not eating enough food, you're going

13:42

to be thrown into that survival state,

13:44

you're going to have increased cravings, you're going to

13:46

feel just that overwhelming need

13:48

to eat massive amounts of food. So it's really,

13:50

really important that you not only learn to not

13:53

binge, but also to eat enough. And

13:55

I feel like that needs to continue.

13:57

And you know, honestly, you need to eat enough for the rest of your

13:59

life. your life of course, you know, but I understand

14:02

that people want to turn toward

14:04

I guess making changes to their habits

14:06

to make them healthier and I love how you work with

14:08

people in a very sustainable way and look at

14:10

you know what they can change to

14:13

make their lives better and as far as like

14:15

a timeline on when that can happen, I mean

14:17

I used to tell people like six months to a year after

14:19

you stop binging, that is a very general

14:22

you know framework. It's not the same for everyone

14:24

but I would say if you're going to look to make

14:26

those sustainable habit

14:28

changes, you do it in a very gentle gradual

14:31

way and check in with yourself along

14:34

the way you know and if it does binge urges

14:36

start to come back again then you know you need to back

14:38

off a little and and really focus on solidifying

14:41

the change in the brain of you

14:43

know just ending the habit. Does that make sense? Yeah

14:45

absolutely and it sounds like I may be a good rule

14:48

with maybe where that six months to a year came

14:50

in is that if you've really been working

14:52

on this for that long and you've been really

14:54

working on dismissing the binge urge, if

14:56

you did choose to take a small calorie deficit

14:59

after that, that habit has been so reinforced

15:01

that you're probably feeling way more stable

15:03

when it does show up if it

15:05

does show up versus if you just were to go

15:07

a month with no binging and then want to jump

15:09

right back into it, it's a habit

15:12

right? I mean it's a habit brain at the end of the day

15:14

so it wants to always go back

15:16

to the habit of the binging or the overeating

15:19

or whatever the food issue is that you're So

15:23

for sure and I think another benefit of

15:25

waiting a really long time before you make

15:27

these changes is it allows

15:29

your body to kind of find

15:32

its natural place without the binging because

15:34

if you're still kind of hanging on to the weight that

15:37

you have because of the surplus of calories

15:39

of you know thousands of calories like you said

15:42

your body is going to be artificially over

15:45

its natural weight so if you just get rid of the binging

15:47

let your body get to a place without

15:50

the binging and then you can kind of make decisions based

15:52

on that instead of you know trying to take a deficit

15:54

when your body hasn't even released the weight from the binging

15:57

does that resonate with you too?

15:59

a client right now who's actually would be

16:02

considered more of a maintainer. She doesn't really

16:04

have a lot of weight to lose, but one month she

16:06

had zero binges and that's one of the things we're working

16:08

on. And she noticed her weight went down and

16:11

she said something really smart. She said, I think

16:13

I just wasn't as inflamed that month

16:15

because I didn't have any of the binge

16:17

episodes. I was completely binge free

16:20

that month. And that's something we don't

16:22

really think about. I had a client a long time

16:24

ago, she was a nurse and she had a photo

16:26

badge on her shirt. And one

16:28

of her co-workers had said to her, oh man, you look

16:30

like you've lost all this weight. What are you

16:32

doing? She had lost no weight on the scale,

16:35

but she had stopped binge eating. And what

16:37

a lot of us don't think about when we binge,

16:39

that's traumatic to your body.

16:41

And it reacts in such a way to usually cause

16:43

inflammation and water retention. Just the act

16:46

of letting that go can usually

16:48

create a difference in your body just

16:50

with that without anything else.

16:52

Oh yeah, totally. You can feel so much

16:54

better in your own body. You feel so much better

16:56

mentally, physically, that you

16:59

may feel like there's really not much

17:01

else you need to do. So it's

17:04

really helpful to allow your body to heal before

17:06

turning to other habit change.

17:09

Here's a question that I would love to hear what your thoughts

17:11

are. One of the things I see as

17:13

kind of being problematic that can lead

17:16

to restrictive eating, that can lead to

17:18

binge eating is a lot of times

17:20

our clients will go to the doctor

17:23

and the doctor, well-meaning, tells

17:25

them you need to lose weight, you need to lose weight quickly,

17:27

you need to get this knee surgery, this hip

17:29

surgery, something's going

17:32

on. And then they get panicked. And you

17:34

and I both know when you're panicked, when you're

17:36

riddled with anxiety about something like

17:39

that, it tends to incite

17:41

more of that habit brain chatter.

17:45

What is it that makes you feel better? Oh, eating.

17:47

I now need to go and quote unquote restrict

17:50

per my doctor's recommendations. And

17:52

it's hard because you don't want to say your

17:54

doctor's wrong because your doctor probably

17:55

isn't wrong. But if

17:57

you've got this underlying issue, And

18:00

you know you're binging and yes, the

18:02

doctor is saying you need to lose weight for X,

18:05

Y, and Z reason. You getting

18:07

all stirred up about it and wanting

18:09

to go extreme can be super counterproductive.

18:12

I'll see people leave the doctor's office

18:14

and go to the drive-thru to do their

18:17

one final binge before they clean

18:19

up their act. So what would you

18:21

say to that person? They're feeling anxious.

18:23

The doctor said this to them. Just

18:26

knowing what you know about binge eating and how

18:28

that extra stress might

18:29

induce more lower brain chatter,

18:32

what would your thoughts be for them?

18:35

Yeah, it's a good point. I mean like you mentioned

18:37

that one last time mentality can

18:40

be really strong. When someone tells

18:42

you

18:42

you need to lose weight or when you

18:45

tell yourself you're going to go on a diet starting Monday,

18:47

that one last time thought is so, so common.

18:49

Anyone who's out there who experiences that, you're not alone

18:52

and it's just how the brain operates, how it perpetuates

18:54

the habit. And once you understand that thought,

18:56

you can kind of rise above it. But

18:58

that's kind of a little separate topic. But as far as

19:01

the doctor and people, I do hear

19:03

that a lot. But the doctor told me I need to lose

19:05

weight. And I tell them, I'm

19:08

not telling you not to lose weight.

19:10

I'm telling you that the way

19:12

that you're going to go about it, like if you're

19:14

going to take an extreme deficit, you're going to go on an extreme

19:17

diet and try to lose weight really quickly, that's actually going

19:19

to be worse for your weight over time.

19:21

That's kind of what got you in the binge cycle. That's

19:24

going to lead to increased binging. And actually make you probably

19:27

heavier than you would be if you made

19:29

the gentle, sustainable, less stressful

19:31

changes in your life. So it's

19:33

not me saying don't lose weight. It's me

19:35

saying don't do extreme things

19:37

that are actually going to make you weigh more.

19:40

Absolutely. Yeah. And I say

19:42

the exact same thing. I say, you know, I get that the doctor's telling

19:44

you that, but they don't really know your eating history,

19:47

right? You're the only one that knows you're eating history.

19:49

And if you can clearly see this has

19:52

been a struggle for you, and we know that our

19:54

lower brain tends to be more active,

19:57

the more stressed and anxious we are. It's

19:59

going into that. Survival mode right and

20:01

for you foods always brought comfort

20:04

so it's going to keep offering up more and more food Whereas

20:06

if you say okay, yeah, my doctor's saying this But

20:10

if I really just focus on my binge eating I'm immediately

20:13

making improvements to my health versus

20:15

just losing the weight

20:17

Yeah, absolutely. I think that you have

20:19

to realize that okay the doctor isn't knowledgeable

20:22

about your history of binging if

20:24

that's true and The binging

20:27

is what's creating a lot of the extra weight So

20:29

if you focus on that like you said

20:31

it will lead to healthy changes It will lead to

20:33

you being in a better place to then make additional

20:36

health improvement So yeah I mean that's a hard

20:38

one because like you said you don't want to go against

20:40

what your doctor says But you know if it's

20:42

going to make it worse, then it's not really advisable

20:45

to go on any extreme diet Yeah, and I

20:47

see unfortunately I see that scenario all too

20:49

often It could be high

20:51

cholesterol high blood pressure

20:52

anything that seems

20:54

like you have to take immediate restrictive action

20:57

with food And tell me your thoughts

20:59

on that Do you find it can be just as

21:01

equally triggered by mentally restricting

21:03

food

21:03

before you even physically restrict

21:06

food? What is your experience with that then?

21:08

I

21:08

mean, I think so especially people

21:11

with a strong history of restriction and going

21:13

on a lot of Deprivation diets is

21:15

that it makes the brain

21:18

like that primitive part of your brain even more

21:20

sensitive to restriction So that even thinking

21:22

about restriction can create this overwhelming

21:24

desire to eat and that I talk a lot about

21:26

in my books that that is

21:28

It's really the way the brain is trying to help you

21:30

survive like when we deprive

21:33

food when we don't eat enough

21:35

Of course our brain is going to make

21:37

food the priority. It's going to increase hunger hormones.

21:40

It's going to decrease fullness hormones It's going to make

21:42

like it very easy for us to eat a lot

21:45

and it's going to make it very difficult for us to

21:47

not eat So, you know the

21:49

more we put that our brain in that state

21:51

either by not eating enough or by you know

21:53

Thinking about not being able to eat. It's

21:55

going to make things worse. So I Apologize

21:59

I kind of forgot

21:59

original question but did that answer that? Yeah,

22:02

yeah. I was just, that was pretty much my question. Can

22:04

mental restriction be just as triggering

22:07

as physical restriction? We know that often

22:09

the diets that we start out with when we're young

22:11

and kind of naive, we actually are physically

22:14

restricting which then creates the binge to occur.

22:17

But then I think as we become more old and mature

22:19

and we've been on enough diets, we

22:21

start mentally restricting before

22:24

we even start quote unquote doing it with the food.

22:26

We'll be like, okay, well today you're not going to have any

22:28

donuts and today you're not going to have any carbs after

22:31

this time and we're going to cut off wine

22:33

here. We get very like mentally rigid with

22:35

ourselves and because of that,

22:38

I'll see people spiraling out halfway

22:40

through the day and yet they've not really restricted

22:43

anything other than in their head. You know

22:45

what I mean? Yeah, and it

22:48

sort of flares up that one last time

22:50

mentality because if you think, oh, after

22:52

this time, I can't have this, what are you going

22:55

to want to have before that time? So yeah,

22:57

that sort of forbidden foods mindset,

23:00

it a lot of times perpetuates the cycle.

23:03

Yeah. And so this brings me to another question and I

23:05

kind of broke this down into a general

23:07

question because we had so many community

23:09

members ask something that was similar

23:12

in nature. The question they have

23:14

is, and I'm sure you've looked at like the DSM

23:16

definition of binge eating and it's very Lucy

23:19

goosey, right? It's like eating in a constraint

23:21

period of time, eating

23:23

a large quantity of food for you

23:25

or a normal person.

23:26

You know, obviously

23:28

maybe feeling like you want to stop, but

23:30

you can stop. There's some very like general

23:32

Lucy goosey terms, but it's not like

23:34

a thousand calories over your, you know,

23:36

your daily maintenance calories. It's not

23:38

eating in an hour timeframe. And because

23:40

it's kind of Lucy goosey, a lot

23:43

of people always ask me the question, well, how

23:45

do I know if I binge? And so that

23:47

one's a little bit easier. But then the other question

23:49

that comes up is, well, is things like

23:52

compulsive eating or

23:54

late night grazing or,

23:57

you know, eating like kind of impulsive.

24:00

Is that coming from the same

24:02

place as maybe the binge eating tendencies,

24:05

these habitual thoughts? And

24:07

people were kind of curious about what you thought about

24:09

that, not necessarily a full on binge, but

24:11

like these other what we'll call problematic

24:14

eating behaviors that you don't want to be doing,

24:16

but you keep finding yourself doing.

24:19

Yeah, all that is a great question. And

24:22

you know, something I get a lot too, actually

24:24

in my course, I have a whole lesson kind

24:27

of devoted to defining your binges,

24:29

to really learning to recognize your urges, because

24:32

we don't want to get to a place where we think everything's

24:34

a binge, you know, you have a craving for a certain type

24:36

of food, and it would be perfectly normal and

24:39

natural to have someone enjoy it. But we start thinking, Oh,

24:41

is it an urge? Is it the binge? And it becomes

24:43

very, you know, confusing. Some

24:46

people's binges are a lot more clear cut than others.

24:48

Mine were very clear cut, I feel like

24:50

I mean, every now and then I have, I would have a great

24:53

area, but they were very, very, very

24:55

large, 1000s and 1000s of calories. So

24:57

some people, it's pretty easy for them to recognize other

24:59

people, it's less clear cut. And

25:01

you mentioned, you know, the quantity

25:04

of food is part of the definition. The

25:06

type of food is often part of

25:08

the definition. But I think, you know, that

25:10

can get a little sticky, because we start thinking, Oh, if I ever

25:12

have that treat that I binge, well, no, that's not the case.

25:15

If you're having like an abnormally large

25:17

amount of type of food, and then the way you're

25:19

eating and a lot of people eat in secret, they

25:21

eat very, very quickly, these

25:24

are things that can kind of set it apart from your more normal

25:26

eating habits. But I think it's

25:29

not necessary for us to get really caught

25:31

up in like the exact thing

25:34

that we call it. Like I often say

25:36

like, just because it's not a binge doesn't mean

25:38

it's not a problem. So like, even

25:41

if it's technically not a binge by

25:43

the clinical definition, if it's

25:45

creating pain in your life, if it's making you

25:47

feel bad, like it still could be something

25:50

to work on. I do tell people

25:52

work on the binges first, like that's the. Whatever

25:55

you define as your binges, like work on that first,

25:57

and then you can kind of move on to some of these other

25:59

eating habits.

27:43

Everyone's

28:00

different. But I think telling people

28:02

like, you absolutely can't have these foods

28:04

and then you'll be cured is really kind of setting people

28:06

up for disappointment because like you said, you can

28:09

binge on almonds.

28:10

Oh, absolutely. So basically

28:13

the gist of what you're suggesting is always

28:15

focus on binge eating, but these other

28:17

areas, if they're problematic for you,

28:20

more than likely they are stemming from

28:22

the same thought process. So the

28:25

question might be, and a lot of people

28:27

were kind of curious about this, one person specifically

28:30

said, how do you stop binge eating in its tracks

28:33

kind of thought process? So if you're seeing this

28:35

issue with nighttime grazing, nighttime

28:38

late night snacking, things that you say you

28:40

don't want to be doing, but you're doing it anyway,

28:42

it seems habitual in

28:43

nature, is there a different way

28:46

you should approach dealing with that versus

28:48

what you might suggest to somebody who is struggling

28:51

with binge eating?

28:53

I think some similar

28:55

things can be used. I think learning

28:58

to see the urges as the

29:00

problem, like yeah, the urges can be connected

29:02

with things in your life with different

29:05

emotions, your brain can become habitually

29:07

conditioned to produce the urge

29:09

in certain circumstances rather than others. And

29:12

I think a lot of times people think, okay,

29:15

I'm having this urge to binge, so let me go solve

29:18

the problem that caused the urge. And

29:20

in that moment, it's really hard

29:22

to do that because your brain is like wanting food.

29:24

That's all you're driven toward. I have

29:27

things in my book that say, therapists

29:30

would tell me, just go take a warm bath when you want

29:32

to binge. I'm like, no, but my brain is screaming

29:34

for food. That bath, although

29:36

it might help some emotion,

29:39

it's not gonna get rid of the urge. So I think acceptance

29:41

of the urge in the moment is

29:44

important and realizing that, sure,

29:46

you can do other things to help yourself, but

29:49

the urge is there. That is how

29:51

your brain is conditioned. So really

29:53

learning to accept it, I think

29:55

is really important. And Coach Julie teaches that

29:57

a lot in coaching.

29:59

accepting and allowing urges. And

30:02

that's kind of a little different to what I call dismissing

30:04

urges. And dismissing is like you realize it's

30:06

meaningless for you, it's powerless, it

30:09

can't make you act, but you can also do

30:11

that while knowing that it's there

30:13

and knowing that it doesn't mean something's wrong with you. So

30:15

in those moments it's like sure you could

30:18

do anything that helps you, great. But

30:20

ultimately like the goal is to have

30:23

the urge,

30:24

allow it to be there, and not act on it.

30:26

And once you get used to doing that, it

30:29

becomes natural and then it does become decondition.

30:32

I mean sure everyone is going

30:34

to have food cravings and desires for food

30:36

like we're meant to eat to live. It's not like another habit

30:38

when you can just quit and never do it like smoking.

30:41

But I think learning to

30:43

kind of be with the urges without letting them get you

30:45

so upset is really helpful. Does that

30:47

make sense? Oh a hundred percent. And I used

30:49

to believe that when I lost all my weight I

30:51

would just be naturally normal with food. Like

30:54

that

30:54

would miraculously happen.

30:56

Because until I found all this work and

30:58

I went from you to Amy Johnson to you

31:00

know just kind of traveling down the rabbit hole really learning

31:03

about this stuff for myself is that

31:05

well no those thoughts might show up

31:07

till the day I die. It's totally

31:10

fine. Like it's not a brain I have control

31:12

over. It's just it's just gonna throw those thoughts out

31:14

there. They're just old regurgitated

31:15

thoughts. But really

31:17

where my power is is in hearing

31:20

it saying oh that's not Heather. That's

31:22

that's her lower brain chowder. It's okay.

31:25

And just ignoring it kind of like an annoying roommate

31:27

right. Like that's your room you do what you want to

31:29

do in there. I don't have to look at it you know that

31:31

kind of thing. And before I so

31:34

desperately wanted my thinking to

31:36

be different. I didn't want to hear that voice

31:38

anymore and I wanted to believe it would just go away. And

31:41

I try to help people kind of ease into this

31:43

idea of well what if it doesn't go away. How

31:46

can you just allow it to show up

31:49

and do its thing and not

31:51

have to have it also be gone. And

31:53

you you're just you're if I'm watching you you're

31:55

not binging because you hear it and you're dismissing

31:58

it. Yes that thought shows up. up, but

32:00

you're not taking any action on it, right? That's

32:02

the magic. Do you agree on that or no?

32:04

Oh, yeah, totally. It's a it's

32:07

a really big shift in perspective when

32:09

you have the urges. I mean, people

32:11

always ask you, hey, well, what do I do? Like, what do I

32:13

do in that moment? And honestly, you can do anything

32:16

you want, but it's really about changing perspective

32:18

and realizing it's not you. And

32:20

I think, you know,

32:21

when your binges are really large,

32:24

and like, it's easier

32:26

to sort of recognize, okay, I'm having this urge to eat

32:28

massive amounts of food, like, this is not me, it

32:31

becomes a little more subtle when it's like, oh, I just

32:33

want like one cookie. And that's not

32:35

a problem, right? So like, it's learning

32:37

to kind of, you know, sometimes you are going to follow

32:39

cravings, and it may not necessarily be

32:41

the perfect decision for you in the moment. But

32:44

it's more of like an art, I think is

32:46

learning yourself, learning what cravings you

32:48

want to follow, which ones you don't. But I really

32:50

focus on helping people put aside this, you know,

32:53

really harmful, dangerous habit of eating massive

32:55

amounts of food. Yeah, and that actually,

32:58

I like how you keep referring to it as being dangerous.

33:00

And one of the things I'd love to hear from you, and we kind

33:02

of touched on this high level a little

33:04

bit ago, but let's just say

33:07

somebody just gets control of their binge

33:09

eating, what are the benefits, both

33:12

maybe physically, and maybe

33:14

based on a social, just life

33:16

quality perspective that improves,

33:19

even if they didn't choose to pursue weight

33:21

loss, they said, Okay, you know, I just got my binge eating

33:23

under control. What are the gifts I'm

33:25

going to get from that process?

33:27

No, there are so many. I mean, so

33:29

many, I do say like, even if I never would

33:31

have lost a single pound after recovery, it would

33:33

have been 100% worth it. And I did lose weight, you

33:38

know, gradually, just from giving up the binging. But

33:40

as far as like other benefits, I mean, binging took

33:43

up so so much of my time. I mean, I would

33:45

spend hours and hours binging. And then I also

33:47

purged in the form of over exercise, I would spend

33:50

hours and hours at the gym the next day. And it was

33:52

so time consuming that I couldn't really

33:54

focus on the rest of my life. So I get

33:57

so much time back. And just the mental

33:59

energy the physical energy, just not

34:01

feeling so shameful. I mean, I just remember

34:04

being embarrassed. Like you talked about sort of your body's

34:06

inflamed, you're swollen, you're retaining water. I

34:08

was embarrassed to go anywhere. I felt like I didn't

34:10

look like myself

34:12

just to kind of feel like myself again and feel

34:14

like I could trust myself was huge.

34:17

I mean, I hated like going home

34:19

at night because I didn't know if I was gonna be able to resist

34:21

the binge or not. And just to know like, even

34:24

if I have urges, I know I'm not gonna follow

34:26

them. I know I'm gonna wake up tomorrow feeling

34:28

good, feeling like I can do whatever

34:30

I need to do in the day. And like, it's not that when

34:32

you recover, you're just suddenly this perfect person.

34:35

Like you actually have the mental space

34:37

to solve your problems, to deal with

34:39

whatever emotions come your way and completely

34:41

imperfectly. I think that was

34:44

something that I had to let go of is like recovery

34:46

meant I would be perfect because I felt

34:48

like, if I

34:50

would have continued to believe that, I never would have recovered.

34:52

So I'm here 18 years after recovery and I'm still not perfect,

34:55

but I don't binge. And it's just great

34:57

to live a life without that, ruining

34:59

it.

35:00

Yeah. And I would assume based on everything

35:02

you've seen research wise and just your own personal

35:04

experience with clients and people in your

35:07

group,

35:07

that if we don't get

35:09

this under control and it continues

35:11

to go on, and this is somebody who has perpetually

35:13

been seeking weight loss the entire

35:15

time, more than likely

35:17

statistically,

35:18

their weight's probably gonna go up over

35:20

the course of their life if binge eating is not

35:23

taken care of. Is that what you see?

35:25

Yes, for sure. I mean, people reach

35:27

their highest weights ever while they

35:30

have binge eating disorder while they're, but even

35:32

bulimia, like even if self-induced vomiting

35:34

is involved, people still reach their highest

35:36

weights ever while bulimic. So it's definitely

35:38

not a means

35:40

to controlling weight. Yeah, I

35:42

was actually shocked by that research. I

35:44

did not realize the body once that procedure

35:47

started with the purging, that

35:49

what it does is how much it affects the calories

35:52

needed and how much it actually still absorbs

35:54

from the food before

35:55

that happens. And that was a commonality

35:58

I kept finding is that their weight continues.

35:59

continue to go up, even though based on

36:02

what you would think they would have consumed

36:04

and kept down, it didn't matter. It still

36:06

happened anyway.

36:07

Yeah. And you're absorbing most of like

36:10

the

36:10

sugar is what you're absorbing.

36:12

And obviously that's, you know, that's not good

36:14

for you. And it and purging is obviously

36:16

super dangerous. So you know, anyone out there who

36:19

is involved in self-induced vomiting, it's important

36:21

to have medical monitoring and

36:23

all that.

36:24

One of the other things that I know sometimes

36:26

people struggle with because we have some people in

36:28

our community that are in their sixties and seventies. I

36:30

mean, they've been doing this for a long time.

36:33

And I think what a lot of older people

36:35

were concerned about is age a factor.

36:38

So do you see a difference

36:41

for somebody who is older recovering

36:43

from binging as they understand this

36:45

whole primitive lower brain thing? Do

36:48

they take a longer time for recovery

36:50

than somebody who's younger? I mean, what

36:53

is your experience and perspective on that?

36:55

Yeah. That's a good question because I do have

36:58

people too that are in their sixties, seventies

37:00

and have been doing this since they were teenagers. And

37:03

there's a couple of things. One thing that's

37:05

actually kind of a positive is that they're

37:07

less

37:08

worried about their weight and

37:11

that doesn't really sound like I meant

37:13

it to, but they've kind of gotten away from that

37:15

culture of like, I have to look perfect. I have to be perfect.

37:17

I feel like that's something that, you know, more people

37:19

who are younger deal with. So in that way, it's a bit

37:22

of a benefit because you can kind of turn

37:24

your attention toward other factors

37:26

that affect your health and you can really be more accepting

37:29

of yourself and not really be caught up in that

37:31

culture of like, I have to have the perfect body. So

37:33

that's actually something that works to the benefit of, of

37:36

people who are older. But I feel like

37:38

with habit change, any habit that

37:40

you do for a longer period of time does

37:42

get more ingrained in the brain. So I think

37:45

they feel like they're acting more automatically. They

37:47

feel like there's not quite that space

37:49

before they act to make a different choice.

37:51

So it really takes developing a lot of awareness,

37:54

sometimes incorporating some mindfulness practices,

37:57

you know, things that can strengthen the prefrontal

37:59

cortex.

37:59

so that they can have that space and time to make

38:03

a different choice, to get back in touch with that higher part

38:05

of their brain. And then just, you know, the urges may

38:07

not go away as quickly as someone who

38:09

did have it for a shorter period of time. So it's

38:11

just yeah, the time it takes

38:13

to decondition the brain can be a little longer,

38:15

but it's definitely doable. I mean, our brain over

38:18

binge code, Julie recovered after 40

38:20

years, and we have many people who've recovered

38:21

after you know, 30, 40, 50 years. Absolutely.

38:24

And I remember when I was really working on

38:26

this for

38:27

myself, I had to put Post-it Notes in

38:29

the kitchen, because I would

38:31

walk in there like almost in a daze, like,

38:34

and I'm sure you've heard this too, where it's like, you almost

38:36

don't even realize you're going to the kitchen

38:38

to binge. And I would see these Post-it

38:40

Notes that would say go, go take a five minute

38:43

timeout, like it would be instructional, like take

38:45

a five minute timeout, take a 10 minute timeout, go

38:47

somewhere else. And I needed

38:49

to see something to almost bring

38:51

me back to self awareness to catch

38:53

myself in the moment doing it, because

38:56

I wasn't aware of

38:58

how I even got there sometimes, you

39:00

know, do you find there's anything like that, that

39:03

tends to help people when they check

39:05

out of thinking completely, they're not even aware

39:07

of what's happening? Yeah,

39:10

it's a good point, because it's almost like your higher

39:12

brain feels absent at that

39:14

time, it feels like because the lower

39:16

brain, you know, generates these urges

39:18

automatically generates this desire, it's trying to

39:21

maintain a habit that you've always done, you know, dopamine

39:23

is firing, you're feeling craving, and

39:25

it can be easy to sort of blindly follow that.

39:27

And in those moments, like it's

39:30

really important to realize that you do have that capacity

39:32

for self control is still there. And it's

39:35

just a matter of getting in touch with it. And

39:37

at first, it may feel difficult, like it may feel

39:39

uncomfortable, you're going to have unmet desire,

39:42

you're going to feel like that's what you want to do. And anything

39:45

that helps you, I think the Post-it Notes a great idea.

39:47

I mean, some people find that like, you

39:49

know, making a loud sound or turning a music

39:51

or clapping or doing anything to get out of

39:53

the environment just if they can give

39:55

themselves 10 extra seconds, sometimes it's

39:57

enough to snap themselves sort of back in that.

39:59

higher brain state because you

40:02

know it does have that capacity to override

40:06

the primitive drives and some

40:08

people may need to Do some

40:10

work before that moment to help themselves

40:12

like a lot of people find that meditation is helpful The

40:15

basics of self-care is helpful Like if

40:17

someone's completely like sleep deprived

40:19

and you know not taking care of themselves

40:21

at all It's much harder to access that that self-control.

40:24

So it's not only in that moment

40:26

that you can you know learn

40:29

to Dismiss the lower brain

40:31

but it's kind of setting yourself up before

40:33

that moment so that you can have success

40:35

and I would like to Segue I had

40:37

some really good questions that were submitted from some

40:39

community members. Would you be okay

40:42

answering a few of those? Oh sure. Absolutely.

40:44

Okay, so Sue says she has three questions

40:47

What are your general?

40:48

Recommendations as far as keeping treat

40:50

foods or foods you frequently have binged

40:53

on in the house

40:53

while you're in recovery process

40:55

Her second question how many

40:58

calories is the minimum that you recommend

41:00

for somebody to be eating adequately? And

41:03

do you recommend somebody completely

41:04

recovered from binge eating before

41:06

they try to even take a very

41:09

gentle calorie deficit? Those are her

41:11

three questions.

41:12

Okay. I'll try to remember all three. Um, the

41:14

first one was sort of the trigger foods in

41:16

the house and That

41:18

is another individual thing I think it's

41:21

a wonderful thing to be able to come to a place

41:24

that you feel you can have power over any food

41:26

and you feel Like you know, there's food going stale

41:28

in your cabinet that you would have

41:30

binged on You know that you would have eaten in an hour

41:32

a long time ago So that's a great

41:34

place to come to but don't feel like you have to be

41:37

a hero and do that right now Like

41:39

if there are certain foods that helps you

41:41

to if it helps you to have certain foods

41:44

out of your environment I don't think that's

41:46

a bad thing. Like you're not doing anything wrong I

41:48

think setting yourself up for success can

41:51

involve making some choices that

41:53

help set yourself up for success So, you

41:55

know, maybe you can start with some foods

41:57

that feel a little easier for

41:59

you you to like not binge

42:02

on and then add maybe some more challenging

42:04

ones until you feel more comfortable and

42:06

powerful around every food. But

42:08

you know, even people who have never had a binge eating

42:10

habit still may not keep certain

42:13

foods in their house because it's a temptation. So

42:15

again, it's nothing's really wrong with you if you decide

42:17

to keep certain foods out. Does that make sense?

42:19

I 100% agree. And I will speak to this question

42:21

specifically having done this myself. I

42:24

could not keep those foods in the house. I

42:26

had to physically leave the house and go eat

42:28

them in public

42:29

like I call it like a person because

42:32

whenever I had eaten them, I eat them like an animal

42:34

in the house when I would binge. And so that

42:36

was really my only experience

42:39

eating those foods. And so I needed

42:41

to create like a new way of thinking about

42:43

it. I needed to have it in a way that allowed

42:45

me to be successful. I needed almost forced

42:48

success to happen. And

42:50

when I didn't have those foods in the house, it immediately

42:52

mitigated binging. And I know why Sue

42:54

might have asked this question because I'm sure you've seen

42:56

this on social media. There

42:59

are some people promoting for binge

43:01

eating recovery have all the foods like

43:03

expose yourself to them and eventually

43:05

you'll get tired of them. But for some

43:07

people that brings on even more binging

43:09

maybe before it ceases

43:11

and it can feel very overwhelming for somebody

43:13

who's never seen success

43:14

with those foods.

43:16

Yeah, for sure. So yeah, I

43:18

like all of that. And it's great to hear your personal

43:21

story around it. But just yeah, do what works

43:23

for you. Yeah. And her second one

43:25

was about calories. I know you don't typically talk

43:27

calories, but for somebody who maybe has

43:30

spent their whole life like searching for calories

43:32

for a diet, what what is adequate calories

43:34

mean to you?

43:36

Yeah, and this is something that's in the Brain

43:38

Over Binge recovery guide. Like this whole second

43:40

half of the book is about eating adequately.

43:43

And there isn't like any exact

43:45

number because everyone is so different. But I do

43:47

give a recommended minimum of 2200 calories.

43:51

That's like the recommended minimum for someone

43:53

you know, and if you consider and some people are like,

43:55

Oh my gosh, it's so much food. But if you consider the fact

43:57

that like, let's say you're restricting and

43:59

only eating, you know, 1200 calories a day,

44:01

but then you're binging on like 10,000 calories or 5,000

44:04

calories or however much like your

44:07

daily average, if you factor in the binging is

44:09

going to be way more than 2200 calories.

44:12

So like, it's actually eating

44:14

less food than you're normally eating. So I think

44:16

that's a way to kind of talk people into

44:18

eating enough and that's the minimum I give.

44:21

But again, every individual is a little different. Yeah.

44:23

And you probably would agree if it's

44:25

somebody whose maintenance calories

44:28

were higher than that, like say it's somebody who's

44:29

like 25, 2800, maybe they're a larger person, you would

44:34

probably say start at least with your maintenance

44:36

calories. Oh, yeah. I mean, like, just

44:38

to say like, the sort of recommendation

44:40

I give is 2200 to 3000. And honestly,

44:42

it could be more for people who are athletic for people

44:44

who are, you know, like,

44:47

just depending on body type age, so many different

44:50

factors like that, that is a minimum. But

44:52

I honestly think it's so much better to err on

44:54

the side of eating more than you need rather than

44:56

less. Got it. Perfect. And her last question,

44:59

do you recommend somebody completely recover from

45:01

binge eating before they even take a

45:02

very gentle deficit for calorie deficit?

45:06

Yeah, and I think we addressed that earlier too. But

45:08

I'll say that binging a lot of times brings people

45:11

over their natural weight. So like,

45:14

the larger the body, the more calories

45:17

are required to, you know, make that body

45:19

function. So you just

45:21

getting rid of the binging and eating an ample

45:23

amount of food, it's kind of like

45:26

a natural deficit in that

45:28

you're eating based on kind of what your natural

45:30

body

45:31

would need. But

45:32

your body is still larger from the binging. So

45:34

it kind of naturally gravitate downward. Is that like

45:37

making sense to you? Yeah, yeah, 100%. And

45:39

I've seen this in practice, and I'm sure you guys have

45:42

too, if somebody is been binging

45:44

frequently multiple times a week, and that

45:46

by itself comes out or greatly

45:49

reduces, often they will see

45:51

their weight trend down. And they're not really doing

45:53

anything specifically with, you

45:55

know, calorie management, they're just

45:58

not binging. And that

46:00

several extra hundred or thousands of

46:02

calories coming off allows

46:04

their body to kind of readjust. And to

46:07

be fair, they probably have quite a high basal

46:09

metabolic rate from all the food that they are

46:11

so used to eating. And now it's kind of coming,

46:13

like they're still a little bit higher and

46:16

eating a little less can create a deficit naturally.

46:19

Yeah, so it's not like you need to create a purposeful

46:21

deficit, but by stopping binging,

46:24

it's creating just

46:25

the deficit of not binging, which

46:27

is gonna allow your body to release

46:30

the weight that you're carrying from binging, if that makes, I

46:32

think that makes sense. Yeah, and I think Ashton's question

46:35

actually complements that one. And maybe this is

46:37

a

46:37

little bit more what Sue is even asking.

46:40

Ashton said that back in 2015, she

46:42

was binging almost daily. And

46:44

after doing so much work, I only

46:46

have a binge episode occasionally, maybe

46:49

a few times a year. Is

46:51

there a way to become totally

46:53

binge free? Or is this few times

46:55

a year considered basically recovered?

46:58

Is it possible to be entirely binge

47:00

free? Or is this as close as

47:02

I can get? So somebody who was binging daily

47:05

to just a couple times a year, she basically

47:08

wants to know, should she consider

47:09

herself recovered? Like kind of

47:11

how do you define that? Yeah,

47:14

it's a good question. And I guess it would depend

47:16

also how she is defining binges. I

47:19

would say that a lot of people overeat

47:21

on occasion for sure. I mean, a big holiday

47:23

meal, you go out to dinner, like yes, there are going

47:26

to be times that you overeat even after you

47:28

recover from binging. So I would ask you

47:30

to look at how

47:33

you're defining a binge. And if it is truly

47:35

like what you consider a binge and way out of

47:37

line with what normal overeating

47:40

would be, I would say that

47:42

yes, it is possible to completely get

47:44

rid of that. I think what can happen is people

47:48

think, oh, it's just once a year, so it's not

47:50

a big deal. And you kind of have this mental

47:53

chatter, like you call it in your head, that's

47:55

like, oh, it's not a big deal. I'm still

47:57

recovered.

47:58

Technically, if you go by the clinical

48:01

criteria, you know, you have to binge a certain number

48:03

of times within a few months period.

48:06

And yeah, binging once a year would not be considered

48:08

binge eating disorder or bulimia that you would

48:10

fall out of the clinical criteria. But

48:12

I think, you know, if you're

48:15

wanting to get rid of that, then

48:17

you're going to have to dismiss the thoughts that

48:19

say, Oh, it's not a big deal. I'm still

48:21

recovered. So like whether or not

48:24

you call yourself recovered, or,

48:26

you know,

48:27

if you don't want it in your life, then

48:30

you can get it out of your life. I

48:32

totally

48:32

forgot two things about that in the DSM,

48:35

which is the clinical criteria, you're

48:37

right. It's like one time every

48:39

week for so many weeks or so many

48:42

times, it's like, they give you a very specific

48:44

guideline on how you would say, yes,

48:46

this person has binge eating. And I don't

48:48

think based on her amount of frequency that

48:51

would actually classify her as that. But

48:53

secondly, defining overeating

48:55

from binging. And this is a serious problem,

48:58

Catherine. I will have clients

49:00

who come to me and we're working on binge eating and

49:02

they just go to an event and they kind of overeat and

49:04

they go, I don't know, is that a binge? And I say, well,

49:07

you do know normal people, like people

49:09

who've never had a weight struggle or that have

49:11

never had a binge eating struggle that they'll go to Thanksgiving,

49:13

they overeat like unbuttoned pants kind of

49:15

breathe a little heavy. Like, I mean, you

49:18

know, normal quote unquote people, but when

49:20

you've always struggled with weight, when

49:22

you've always struggled with binge eating and you're obsessively

49:24

focused on it, you think, quote

49:27

unquote, normal people just eat adequately

49:29

all the time and that their

49:32

weight is a byproduct of kind of perfect

49:34

eating all the time. You don't

49:36

understand that they have those days

49:38

too. And that was a hard thing for me

49:41

to get. But I see it also being a struggle

49:43

for my coaching clients too.

49:45

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And,

49:47

you know, I've been recovered 18 years

49:49

and sure, there are definitely times that I

49:51

quote unquote overeat. But the thing is, I don't

49:54

think it's a big deal. Like I don't

49:57

then say, Oh, I've already failed. So I might

49:59

as well eat.

49:59

eat everything in the cabinet and start over tomorrow. It's

50:02

like, oh, that was delicious. You know, a

50:04

frilly ate a little too much and you move on, right?

50:06

You may not be hungry again for longer than the

50:09

normal. So it's about when

50:11

it happens, not going to extremes, not

50:13

you know, tipping into the binge or not going on

50:16

an extreme diet or to try to compensate

50:18

for it. Yeah. And I also think where the DSM

50:21

might be helpful with that, it's that feeling of

50:23

out

50:23

of control. So when you might overeat

50:25

in a normal situation,

50:27

you don't feel a sense of I'm out

50:29

of control with myself. I'm kind of going into, I

50:32

used to feel like a wild lioness over a carcass

50:34

feeding. You like push everything

50:37

away. Come but yeah, I would feel like that

50:39

in a binge. Now when I overeat, I

50:41

know I'm doing it. I'm okay

50:44

with it. I don't feel frantic about it.

50:46

There's a slight difference in how you feel

50:48

about it. Does that seem true when you think about your

50:50

binge episodes versus overeating now?

50:53

Oh, sure. It feels so much more conscious.

50:55

It feels so much more like a choice. It feels

50:57

like you don't want to go hide

51:00

like you could do it in public without being

51:02

embarrassed.

51:03

And then one question from Katie and I think

51:05

you kind of already answered this, but I'd

51:07

like to hear a little bit more on it. She

51:09

says, I've always been interested in her focus

51:12

on binge eating as just a bad habit

51:14

that doesn't necessarily require therapy or

51:16

dealing with emotional trauma to address. I'm

51:19

not sure that's the case for me as there

51:21

is a lot buried in my binge eating, which

51:23

starts when I was eight. As she was

51:26

working with binge eaters, has

51:28

her opinion on that? Is that as always

51:30

straightforward as a habit to

51:32

be broken and shifted at all changed?

51:34

This

51:36

is a great question. I will try

51:38

to speak to it as best I can. I think that

51:40

like I've been saying throughout this interview is

51:43

that everyone is different, but for a

51:45

lot of the majority of bulimia

51:48

starts with a diet like the vast majority.

51:50

I mean upwards of like 90% starts with

51:53

a diet and that

51:56

was the case for me. Like I restricted my

51:58

food. Sure. There was my life

52:00

and things like that. But I went to an extreme deficit,

52:02

actually went into anorexia, started

52:04

binging in response to that. That's the case for a lot

52:07

of people. With

52:09

binge eating disorder, it tends to be like half and

52:11

half. Some people diet first and some

52:14

people binge first. And I think

52:16

when you have like the binge first track,

52:19

and it starts very early,

52:21

I do think a lot of times it originally can

52:23

start as a self soothing, it can

52:25

start connected to emotions. You just

52:28

learn that food brings you pleasure. It brings

52:30

pleasure to so many people. And when

52:32

we have pain and when we have stress, we

52:35

kind of look for pleasure. That's the way the brain

52:37

works to try to keep us safe.

52:40

But just because maybe that's how it

52:42

started, it could start with overeating and that increases

52:45

over time and develops into a binge eating

52:47

habit. Once you get to a place where

52:49

you're realizing like, this is really

52:51

harming me, this is dangerous, this is not what

52:54

I want in my life, it

52:56

has already become a habit. And yes,

52:58

it's linked to emotions, but like,

53:00

it's still a habit. And you can use a lot of the

53:03

same concepts to learn that, okay, yeah,

53:05

I'm having these automatic urges, but this is not what

53:07

I want to be doing in response

53:09

to whatever problems I'm having in my life. So

53:12

you can treat it in a very similar way. But I think, you

53:14

know, for me, what happened was, because

53:17

it was a survival drive based on dieting

53:19

and anorexia, and then I went to therapy and they're like,

53:21

Oh, you're broken, you have all these problems, you need to deal with

53:23

these emotions. It actually took

53:25

me away from what I actually needed to do, which was

53:28

to eat enough and to break the habit. I

53:30

think habits a factor, no matter how

53:32

it starts. But to answer kind

53:34

of the question in a succinct way is that yeah,

53:36

I have changed as far as

53:38

learning to see that everyone needs something different. And

53:40

if you do need emotional healing along the way,

53:42

then absolutely do that. But you

53:45

have to still address the habit in some way. I

53:47

love that. And I want to give you a real world example. I've

53:49

had now several coaching clients who go to

53:52

therapy to work through stuff that happened

53:54

in their past. And often those will be

53:56

the days they definitely bench. And

53:58

that was shocking to me.

53:59

But as I kind of delved into a lot of the stuff

54:02

Amy Johnson covers

54:02

and like the Little School Big Change

54:05

and her book, you know, Just a

54:06

Thought, is if a lot

54:08

of the emotional stuff that happened in the past,

54:10

if we're regurgitating that, replaying it over and

54:12

over, it's kind of like you're re-experiencing it again

54:15

in real time. They're getting very emotionally

54:17

upset. They're going to therapy. They're talking about

54:19

it. And if that was what

54:21

quote unquote prompted the habit and you're

54:24

sitting in somebody's room discussing it and getting emotional

54:26

about it, it sometimes can be

54:28

a trigger for that habit to have. Now, that's not to

54:30

say I don't think you should go to therapy, but I think

54:32

you should be aware that the more you focus

54:35

on the things that make you uncomfortable

54:36

and sad, it's

54:38

if that habit is attached to that, that

54:41

could also be going hand in hand with it. Do

54:43

you ever see that for people who get very emotional

54:47

about regurgitating their past traumas?

54:50

Yeah, for sure. And the brain just learns,

54:52

it learns patterns and it learns that,

54:54

okay, when you feel this way

54:56

or have this memory, then you binge.

54:59

And maybe at some point in your

55:01

life, it seemed helpful. Like

55:04

it seemed like a distraction that you needed

55:06

or something. But I think by the time people come

55:08

to you, Heather, or come to me, like they're ready to

55:10

move on. And in order to move on,

55:13

in order to learn to cope with

55:15

anything in your life, you have to

55:17

learn to dismiss the urge to binge

55:20

because

55:20

when you binge, it really

55:22

takes you away from any ability

55:24

you have to cope.

55:26

And what I love about your work is that you've

55:28

evolved and grown with this. I know I've evolved

55:31

and grown with this. And I think that's true of

55:33

all of us as humans. What might have worked for

55:35

us 20 years ago when we were going through these

55:37

traumas might not be the solution

55:40

now. And we sometimes have to allow ourselves

55:42

the permission to try

55:45

different things on to attempt these situations

55:47

in different ways.

55:49

Yeah. And to realize that like,

55:51

you're always going to have difficult emotions,

55:53

you're always going to have problems. And that's

55:56

not to diminish anything anyone's going through

55:58

because I know some people, you know, that I've seen and you. seen

56:00

have been through like so much difficult things

56:02

in their life but it's really

56:04

stepping back and asking yourself well do I still

56:06

want to be binging in response or

56:08

do I want to you know evolve and

56:11

grow and learn new ways to take

56:13

care of myself and I think when you can really

56:15

answer that question and when you really can see that

56:17

binging is not actually helping you solve anything

56:20

it makes it you know it

56:22

really can motivate you to give up the habit.

56:25

So let me ask you this today we covered

56:27

a lot of various things but was there anything

56:29

specific

56:29

that I didn't ask you that you

56:32

wanted to cover today or to address?

56:35

I think we covered so much I mean I really

56:37

appreciate the opportunity I think your listeners

56:40

in your community ask great questions and I hope

56:42

I gave you know good answers to them

56:44

and I just appreciate being here. And

56:47

what I'd love for you to tell them is because I

56:49

promote your stuff all the time I tell people

56:51

go check out your podcast I tell

56:53

them get your recovery guide definitely read

56:55

that from cover to cover so I'm constantly promoting

56:57

your stuff because you and I have a lot of crossover

57:00

you know as far as people who want

57:02

my help to lose weight

57:04

but they're also still struggling with those binge eating

57:06

issues and I know that's their primary focus

57:08

first off. What's going on

57:10

for you guys at Brain Over Binge is there

57:12

anything new that you want to make us aware

57:15

of that would be helpful for them any

57:17

new books coming out anything like that?

57:20

Well I don't think I'm going to write any new

57:22

books for a while but it's a

57:25

lot of work. Yeah books are a lot. Yeah

57:27

there are a lot of work yeah the second edition of Brain Over

57:29

Binge is out on that's on Amazon and the Brain

57:31

Over Binge recovery guide. Brain Over Binge

57:34

is really my story like yes it has

57:36

some self-help elements and helps you understand your brain

57:38

but it's all in the context of my story and the

57:40

recovery guide like you said and I appreciate

57:42

the compliments about that book it's more of

57:44

a self-help version and as far

57:46

as anything new I mentioned the online course

57:49

I mentioned coaching with Brain Over Binge coach Julie

57:51

and that's all on brainoverbinge.com

57:54

you can just go there and you know everything's there

57:56

and the podcast too I'm up to episode 125 so

57:59

Not quite as far as you, Heather, but I'm

58:02

trying. Yeah, I just had curiosity, the online

58:04

course, who would that be

58:06

for? How long is the course? What does

58:08

it cover?

58:09

So the online course started

58:11

as

58:12

me just recording answers to every

58:14

question I've ever been asked over the years. And

58:17

I also built in eight lessons. So

58:19

it's all self-paced. Like the coaching is

58:21

with Julie and you get that personal

58:23

support, but the course is all self-paced. Like there's

58:26

an app that you download and it's just like, you

58:28

listen to audios. It's like 130 at

58:30

this point of audios that you listen to. And

58:33

it just takes you through the first half of it. It's

58:35

about dismissing the urges to binge. And the second

58:37

half is about eating adequately. So

58:39

it's really takes you through those two recovery goals

58:42

and answers all your questions along the way. And

58:44

it's yeah, so self-paced for

58:46

someone who feels like they can kind of manage

58:49

it on their own and doesn't need

58:50

that sort of extra personal support. Love

58:52

it. Ah, thank you for all you do and all the goodness

58:55

you're putting out in the world. I know I have greatly

58:57

appreciated it, used it, share it with

58:59

a lot of people. So just keep up the fantastic

59:02

work. And I just wanna say thank you so much for coming on the

59:04

show today.

59:05

Oh, thank you for having me Heather.

59:07

Thank you for listening. Be sure to visit

59:09

halfsizing.com. Check back

59:11

often for your daily dose of inspiration

59:13

because you

59:14

are worth it. The information

59:16

you hear on this podcast is for informational purposes

59:18

only. The host is not a medical professional.

59:21

You should always consult with your doctor, nurse

59:23

or other certified health professional before

59:25

beginning any diet or fitness program.