0:02

Previously on Happy Face. My

0:04

name is Lauren Bride Pacheco and I've worked

0:06

with Melissa Jasperson Moore for about four

0:08

years. My father is Keith Hunter

0:11

Jesperson. He's known as

0:13

the Happy Face serial killer. My

0:16

mom had just said that her and my dad

0:18

were separating, which I didn't believe. I

0:20

wanted to keep like you guys as baby

0:23

pictures, and he chucked out

0:25

all up. There was just this thing that

0:27

people said in the family. They would say,

0:29

Oh, that's just Keith, that's just how Keith

0:31

is, and it seemed to be acceptable.

0:36

One of the few people that Keith opened

0:38

up to about his childhood was psychologist

0:41

Al Carlisle. Any learning problems,

0:44

No, not really for you intelligence.

0:46

I'm very intelligent, but I just didn't adapt

0:48

myself to it. I got pregnant

0:50

my freshman year, so right after

0:52

I found out is when the news hit about

0:54

my dad. I was dating

0:57

a guy named Nick. It was a very

0:59

dysfunctional relationship, so

1:01

I felt like the only option for me to break

1:03

out of this was to not have the baby. A

1:06

couple months later, I got a letter from my dad.

1:08

He said, you're a killer, just

1:10

like me. He deserved to be in prison with

1:12

me. Yeah, the vines

1:16

in the vines, well

1:18

Son, you don't know shine

1:23

o shi ohne.

1:38

My dad always

1:40

said that he was not like

1:42

his dad and the way he disciplined me and my

1:44

siblings. There was a time

1:47

when I was stayed out too late and

1:49

didn't come home and I worried my family, and

1:52

my dad said, you know, you went past

1:55

your curfew. So he

1:57

made me bend over my dad

1:59

and he pulled my pants down so

2:02

my bum was bare, and

2:04

he took off his leather belt and

2:06

he started like whipping it, you know, like

2:08

slapping it, so it made a slapping noise,

2:11

and he

2:13

kept threatening that he was going to whip

2:16

me with it or spank me with it, and

2:19

so I was sobbing and pleading with him

2:21

not to hit me, because like the

2:23

sound alone of the leather slapping

2:26

was terrifying, and just being so vulnerable

2:28

with your tush in the air, like I knew it was

2:30

going to hurt really bad, and he

2:33

didn't. He just kept toying

2:35

with the idea that he was going to hit me. How

2:40

old were you It was at the farmhouse

2:42

of six, about six years old, and

2:45

he made sure that there was always

2:48

the threat

2:50

of being spanked, Like he would

2:52

threatened to spank us, and you just needed

2:54

a threaten you'd whip up real fast.

2:58

I mean, because just his size and

3:00

how he made those sounds was terrifying.

3:03

He must have known the fear. Yeah,

3:07

he must have. For

3:15

all of Melissa's happy childhood memories

3:17

regarding her father, darker

3:19

one surfaced as our journey progressed.

3:23

Although he never physically hit them,

3:25

Keith still managed to instill a sense of

3:27

fear in Melissa and her siblings.

3:30

As the saying goes, not

3:33

all scars are visible. I'm

3:37

Lauren Bray Pacheco. This

3:39

is happy face. My

3:52

dad would be home on the weekends, Saturday morning

3:55

and Sunday morning, Like any weekend morning,

3:59

we always want to wake up our dad. So we

4:01

would rush the bed with my mom and dad

4:03

in it, and we would jump on him and tackle

4:05

us, and it just became a whole hour of

4:07

tackling and tickling while

4:09

he was trying to get out of bed. So we

4:12

would get more and more aggressive, like with

4:15

our tactics, Like I would get a

4:17

further running start and run and then jump on

4:19

the bed. And then I would jump on the bed and then really

4:22

try to pound on my dad, like

4:24

because he could handle it, because you could see that he could

4:26

hold Oh, just a young kid.

4:29

I was like five

4:31

to seven or so, like

4:33

really young. I just would go and jump

4:35

on him and he could take him. My

4:37

brother would get aggressive. I remember him like elbowing

4:40

him, and then my dad like pinning him down and

4:42

wrestling him. And

4:44

with me, he pinned me down and started tickling me, but

4:47

it was to the point of

4:49

like I was gonna pay my pants, and

4:51

I kept screaming I was gonna pay my pants.

4:54

They kept tickling me, but it turned

4:57

from like it was funny,

4:59

like let you go if you're like no, really

5:01

serious had to go, you know, you would let your child

5:03

go, But all of a sudden, it was now

5:06

like I control you, and

5:09

it turned into like now I'm sobbing because

5:11

I'm it's becoming painful

5:14

to be tickled, you know. So you'd go from

5:16

laughing to crying, yeah,

5:19

and then would he stop. He

5:21

would eventually let me go, but it was when he

5:23

wanted to let me go. That

5:25

just was his way with us. Anything

5:27

I was afraid of or didn't like, he made

5:29

sure to push it and

5:32

push me beyond my comfort,

5:34

just to let me know he had control.

5:37

It may sound very harmless or little

5:40

to somebody else, but it was. It was a message.

5:42

He was giving me a message that he controls

5:44

me. I mean, there's so many is the little

5:47

tiny lessons of that. It's like touching

5:49

the electric fence. So we have around

5:52

the perferle of the farm, we had an electric fence

5:54

and I asked him, Dad, is the fence

5:57

on. He's like, we'll touch it and find out

6:00

I touched it. And when you touch it, you

6:03

can't let go. Your hand will let go? Like

6:05

my hand I remember was on it and it

6:07

was like vibrating and I couldn't release

6:10

my hand because it gripped it. And

6:12

he was laughing. It was all

6:15

to tell me that he

6:18

could do what he wants and

6:20

that you were his yep.

6:25

And I had to watch my feelings around my kids.

6:28

I had to watch because if

6:30

they did something wrong and made me

6:32

want to feel like punishing

6:34

them because I know what my dad would do to me. I feel

6:37

like I had to really watch myself

6:39

that I didn't allow myself.

6:42

See here, I'm a murderer and I've been out here and I've

6:44

been doing this. I said, I've got to watch

6:46

my emotions around people I love. There

6:48

is, like you say, maybe not a controller,

6:50

because I'm not. There

6:53

are things that made setting me off and I had

6:55

to watch that. It was too easily done, as

6:58

times where I've gotten with people friends of mine

7:00

and I just sit there and said, I can't stay here. You

7:03

don't see it, but I do, and I'm not going to stick around

7:05

because I will do something about

7:07

it eventually.

7:17

After her father's capture, enter chaotic

7:19

relationship with Nick, Melissa

7:21

tried to find a sense of security and

7:24

safety and love, just

7:26

a normal life. But

7:29

something was always missing. Why

7:32

was that so important to you that you create

7:35

this stable home life. Well,

7:37

it actually goes back to the

7:40

breakup with Nick. When

7:42

I broke up with Nick, it was a

7:45

relationship that I didn't want to repeat.

7:47

So I made a list of all the things

7:50

that weren't working for me, that were

7:52

harmful. And I

7:55

took a look at what my parents' relationship

7:57

was and my mom's new relationship

8:00

was, and I realized I didn't want to repeat that. In order

8:02

to do that, I had to make a list of what wouldn't

8:04

work for me. So I made this checklist

8:07

and I put it in my diary. And

8:11

there's this moment when I met Sam,

8:13

and as he was talking, I was checking

8:16

off that list in my head

8:18

of all the things that I needed to

8:21

ensure that I didn't follow in my mom's

8:23

footsteps. Give me an example.

8:25

What was on that list. Oh? Number

8:28

one, he had to be college educated.

8:31

I didn't want to live in poverty and

8:33

I didn't want to be in a relationship that

8:35

if I was going to have children with someone that

8:38

it was unstable. Two travel

8:41

the world, had a worldview.

8:44

I wanted to see the world. I had this

8:46

stream of traveling. Three

8:49

that he was transparent and

8:51

honest and I could count on them

8:54

and know that everything that he says would

8:57

be truthful. Those are the top

8:59

ones. And I first met him. The

9:01

first thing he said is he's in college and

9:04

he's getting his degree in international relations.

9:06

And then he already lived in Portugal for two

9:08

years. So he, to

9:11

me, was the best man

9:14

that I had ever met in Spokane.

9:17

On paper, he was everything that

9:19

I needed. The

9:21

hymn Melissa refers to is

9:23

Sam, her estranged husband

9:25

and father of her two children. We

9:28

spoke to Sam about how the relationship

9:30

began and evolved. So

9:33

tell me how you and

9:36

Melissa first met. How old were you

9:38

and where was it. Oh,

9:40

it was a while ago. I was twenty

9:42

five or twenty six right in there, and

9:44

Melissa was like twenty one,

9:47

and it was pretty unique. I

9:50

grew up Mormon, and so every

9:53

Friday there would always be an activity at

9:55

dance for singles. I

9:57

remember I had just broken up with a girl and

10:00

I didn't want to go out. I didn't want to go hang out with anybody,

10:02

and I had two roommates and they

10:04

wanted me out of the house. They're like, time

10:07

fore to go do something. We're going to go to the dance.

10:09

It was in West Plains in Spokane, Washington.

10:12

It's a big gymnasium full of people. Knew

10:15

most everybody there because it's all of my peers,

10:17

the people I hanged out with, and I

10:21

was kind of reluctant to even be there,

10:23

but I also was enjoying the music. So

10:25

I went and sat up on the stage and I was

10:27

just watching everybody dance, and

10:30

I was looking around the room trying to

10:32

figure out if I was going to date again. And

10:34

then I

10:38

remember it very clearly. Side

10:42

doors of the gym opened, up and

10:45

beautiful blonde walked in. Everything

10:49

was dark. I had never

10:51

seen her before. I

10:53

was very, very interested, so

10:56

at that moment I decided to probably be open

10:58

to dating again. I

11:01

was sitting on the stage trying to be a loner,

11:03

which isn't my normal personality actually,

11:06

and I would just watch her mingle with

11:08

some people. And then after

11:11

a little while she

11:13

approached me. She came

11:15

up to me on the stage and she sat next

11:17

to me. I was right next to the

11:19

speakers, so you couldn't really hear

11:21

each other. So she started trying

11:24

to talk to me, and as

11:26

she tried, I moved closer to her

11:28

so that we could hear each other, and she started talking

11:30

in my ear, and I was smitten.

11:35

I asked her for her phone number, and

11:37

I asked for a chance to

11:39

be able to catch up with her, and

11:43

she left. I left. I think

11:45

we went to Sherry's as a group. Usually

11:47

after dances, as a collective

11:49

Mormon group, you always go like to Denny's or

11:51

Sherry's or something like that. And

11:53

I remember the whole night, I just kind of stop thinking about

11:55

her, and I

11:58

didn't call her for like two or

12:00

three days. Was that

12:02

calculated? No? I

12:05

was just turned nervous. It's

12:07

a glow group

12:22

break, no,

12:41

mm hmmm. For

12:44

Melissa, Sam's greatest appeal

12:47

was that he represented everything her

12:49

father did not. Were

12:51

your first impressions of Sam physically, Oh,

12:56

he had a goateee that was kind of long,

12:59

and and he was wearing a leather jacket

13:02

not normally like stylistically,

13:06

and maybe as girls like we all can relate

13:08

to this, you're like, Oh, that's changeable. The closer changeable.

13:14

It's really the antithesis of your father physically

13:17

though too, and in terms of emotionally,

13:21

your dad six foot six, Sam

13:24

was probably closer to five foot

13:26

six. Yeah, he's five ' six. He

13:29

instantly did he feel safe, Uh,

13:32

yeah, because he wasn't pursuing me. Well, it felt

13:35

like he wasn't pursuing me at all, like I had to be

13:37

the pursuer. So that felt incredibly safe.

13:39

Yeah. He put my phone number in his flip phone

13:41

and then he never called me, never

13:45

did And I worked at Victoria's

13:47

Secret and then

13:49

one day he just shows

13:51

up at my job. So

13:56

she worked on the makeup side of Victoria's Secret,

13:59

and so I showed up to the makeup side

14:01

and I asked for help to like for a perfume

14:03

or something, but really the goal

14:05

was to get to meet Melissa and she

14:09

I don't know if she asked me or if I asked her. I

14:11

was like, hey, can oh, I asked her? I remember

14:14

now he says, you know, like, hey,

14:16

you know I was talking to Lisha,

14:18

your friend, and she said that you could

14:21

use a good guy in your life, and

14:23

do you want to go out? I said sure,

14:25

and so I gave them a

14:28

day. We set the date up,

14:30

and then like in a few days when it was supposed to happen,

14:33

I was trying to like make sure it was going to happen, and

14:35

she told me that she kind of go out,

14:37

like one of her friends asked her

14:39

to like watch their kid. So I told

14:42

him like, oh, you know, I forgot, I'm babysitting.

14:45

And then he thought I was, you know, making up an excuse

14:47

to turn him down and not to go out with him. And I

14:49

said, well, actually you want to just come with me. She goes,

14:51

but you're welcome to come watch the kid with me, and

14:54

I obviously said yes, and

14:58

I just thought it was a good guy. And we went out to Denny's

15:00

where everybody hung out, like if

15:02

you didn't want your day to end, you just go to Denny's

15:05

or Sherry's. And I

15:07

remember we were talking about the I

15:10

don't know why I came up, but one of my favorite

15:12

fables was the Sirens fable, and

15:15

so we were talking about that, The

15:17

Sirens. Yes,

15:19

I don't know why I like that fable. Maybe

15:22

because the female house the power. It's

15:26

subtle, but even on their first date,

15:29

Melissa's tiny exertion of control

15:32

has echoes of her father. We

15:35

were on our date at Sherry's and I

15:37

remember she did something that no other girl was

15:39

capable of doing. I really

15:42

detest ranch dressing.

15:45

There was no way I was ever going to eat ranch dressing.

15:48

And she was eating like a piece of chicken,

15:50

and she asked me to eat it, and I told

15:52

her no. I go, I don't like ranch dressing.

15:56

And then I ate ranch dressing. And I remember,

15:58

like no girl had ever had that kind of power

16:01

over me, and I found

16:03

it really attractive that she

16:05

didn't take no for me. Did

16:08

you guys get serious? Really quickly? We

16:10

did, so instead of taking

16:12

her home, I took her back to my place. And

16:14

in the Mormon community, that's not a normal

16:17

next step. I took her back to

16:19

my place and while we were there and we

16:21

didn't do anything, we made

16:23

out, but still that was

16:25

the fastest relationship that I've ever had,

16:27

like to move that quickly on

16:31

paper. Sam was everything Melissa

16:33

would want in a partner, but

16:35

her fear of vulnerability always

16:37

overshadowed her desire for connection.

16:41

This is somebody who physically doesn't

16:43

look like my dad, doesn't act

16:46

like my father in any shape or form,

16:48

so he felt safe in all of those

16:50

categories. I craved

16:53

to have everything

16:55

that I was missing growing up, but

16:57

I emotionally couldn't connect to it.

17:00

What was your fear during that time?

17:04

My biggest fear was that everybody would find out

17:07

about my past and that it would take

17:10

this life that I curated and make

17:12

it crumble down, that it

17:14

would fall apart, that everything

17:17

I worked for and survived

17:19

for would fall apart, and

17:21

that people would find out that I'm just like my father

17:24

and I would lose everything. You

17:28

know, It's interesting to go back and

17:30

meet with people that I dated in the past and

17:32

then this to be a common thread that I

17:35

was emotionally just in the relationship

17:37

that they constantly had to work

17:39

to find out what I was feeling. Yes,

17:42

I was a very emotionally removed person.

17:44

That scared me, but that was a vulnerability

17:47

that was trained out of

17:49

me. If I was vulnerable with my

17:51

dad, he exploited it. If I was vulnerable

17:53

with these boyfriends, what would happen. It

17:56

scared me to think that I wasn't capable of

17:59

love, and that's a

18:01

precursor to psychopathy, that

18:03

I could be a psychopath if I couldn't

18:06

have empathy or love. And

18:09

I honestly didn't feel when

18:11

I left a lot of these relationships, I didn't

18:13

feel sad to leave them. I was

18:15

relieved to leave these relationships. So

18:19

it caused me to further wonder if I was

18:21

just like my dad. In

18:27

Sam, Melissa saw the stability

18:30

she desperately craved, and

18:32

his religious upbringing provided stark

18:34

contrast to her father's crimes.

18:37

But in reality, Sam was very

18:39

much questioning his faith and

18:42

rebelling against it. Melissa

18:45

became part of that rebellion. What

18:49

did you know about her family? Do

18:51

you remember? Yeah? I remember

18:53

when she first told me. I think we were at a mom's

18:56

place where you've been now. They used

18:58

to have like a trampoline in the front

19:00

of the yard. I think we were on

19:02

the trampoline and we

19:04

were like looking up at the stars. That's

19:06

when Melissa told me who her dad

19:08

was, and once again I

19:11

was so smitten. To be honest, I didn't really

19:13

care, and I don't think I understood the magnitude,

19:16

like the gravity of what her father was,

19:19

and I didn't see it as a reflection of who she

19:21

was. Like I would hate for somebody

19:23

to ever think that my parents a reflection

19:25

of me. I mean, obviously we are, but

19:27

like, I don't want to be judged for that. When

19:31

was the first time Sam said you

19:34

aren't there emotionally? When was the first

19:36

time that he doubted? It

19:39

was always the elephant in the room, the

19:42

lack of connection. I

19:45

thought, if we don't acknowledge it, then

19:47

it doesn't exist, and

19:49

therefore everything's normal. Don't bring

19:52

it up. And so there wasn't

19:54

anything verbally spoken about it until

19:56

three years ago. We

19:59

had a conversation about where things were at

20:01

in our marriage and that was his complaint.

20:05

And what did he say.

20:07

He said, you never

20:10

a look in my eyes, and you never kissed me, and

20:14

it really bothered him. And

20:18

it's true

20:20

it's true, and it has nothing to do with him. I

20:23

don't blame him. It was nothing to do with him at

20:25

all. It was everything to

20:27

do with me. In the freaking

20:31

shish

20:35

in for

20:37

a secco,

20:41

I did no

20:45

you dog, Senes.

20:54

In what must have been one of the most surreal

20:57

moments in their marriage, one day,

20:59

Melissa is sad I did to visit Keith.

21:03

Melissa and I were at home one day and I

21:05

think she had either just received a letter or

21:07

maybe had come across the letter, and

21:11

she asked me if

21:13

it was weird that she hadn't seen her dad, and

21:17

I was like, I don't know. I don't know if it's weird,

21:19

Army, he is in prison for murder. So

21:22

no, I don't think it's that weird. She

21:24

goes, how would you feel if I was to go

21:26

see him again? And I was

21:28

like, whether you want to or not, I'm here

21:31

for you. And uh, I

21:33

said, we'll just think about it, and she did. She thought about

21:35

it for a little while, and then she goes, I think

21:37

I'm gonna do that, and so

21:40

I took some time off. We told her

21:43

when we were going on a trip to Oregon, and

21:45

we didn't tell anyone what we were going to go do, and

21:49

we ended up getting to the prison

21:52

with our kids, and so we

21:56

ended up like following the guards through

21:58

this like may of like sales

22:01

like where they would open up a gate and you open

22:03

up another gate and you're kind of like following them through.

22:06

And then they brought us into this like lobby

22:09

which had like couches laid out, and

22:11

I was trying to figure out how it was working,

22:14

and I was waiting for them to come get us, and I was

22:16

trying to figure out, so Melissa, when

22:18

you go see your dad, I'll just stay here with the kids. And

22:22

then I started looking around

22:24

the room and there

22:27

was guards at the doors with guns,

22:30

and all the men in the room were

22:32

wearing denim and I

22:34

wasn't wearing dunim. I

22:36

was like, man, that must be the style

22:38

and Oregon or something, so

22:41

naive I am, oh,

22:46

And then I started noticing that they're like

22:48

pretty tied it up. And it

22:51

was when we were in the room then I realized that

22:53

we were going to meet Melissa's dad in person. I

22:57

had no idea, and

23:00

like after a little while, Melissa's dad came in

23:02

and he's massive,

23:05

like he is such a big man. I

23:07

mean, I knew he was big, but I don't think I knew

23:09

how big he was. I remember

23:11

I stood up, Melissa stood up, and the

23:14

kids were with us, and I don't

23:16

remember if he hugged Melissa, but

23:18

I remember his interaction with me. He

23:21

shook my hand and he said,

23:23

thank you for taking such good care of my daughter. That

23:25

was the very first thing he said, and

23:28

I was like, oh, I might be able to

23:30

handle this guy. So he

23:32

sat down next to us. I think he asked

23:35

us if we wanted to have the kids go play

23:37

over in the play area or not, and we're like, no,

23:39

we'll keep them here. And I wasn't very

23:41

cognizant of even what my kids were enduring, or

23:43

even what Melissa was feeling, because my anxiety

23:46

level was really high. I didn't know if

23:48

I had to move it like into a protective mode

23:50

or like into a kindness mode. I

23:53

was really distraught. I didn't know what to do.

23:55

Was it crazy? It was, because like

23:57

I wasn't expecting it to look like that, And

24:00

he was actually pretty genuine

24:02

and pretty kind. The banter back

24:05

and forth between Melissa and her dad seemed kind

24:07

of normal. He asked if we wanted to

24:09

go outside. I guess there's an outside

24:11

area that you could go sit in, and

24:13

we just had a dialogue back and forth. That

24:16

was weird. What's going

24:18

through your mind at any point? Are you looking

24:21

at this face and hearing this voice and hearing

24:23

the small talk and thinking this man

24:25

murdered people? Yes? Absolutely.

24:28

I was able to sit next to a

24:30

horrible, horrible person that could

24:32

killate women, and I

24:36

wasn't able to even distinguish that that's

24:38

what he was. And I used

24:40

to consider myself pretty good at reading people,

24:42

like assessing who they are, and

24:44

at that very moment, I realized that most it'd

24:47

be easy for all of us to be prey. And

24:50

that blew my mind. That was going

24:52

through my head the entire time while he's

24:54

talking to Melissa as like he

24:57

murdered a people from

25:03

I the creation of a serial killer

25:05

by jack Olson. My

25:08

size intimidated the guards and they chained

25:10

me up whenever I was moved. I

25:13

explained that I wasn't going to harm anyone, but

25:15

they'd heard that story before. It

25:18

didn't matter how nice and polite I acted.

25:21

I was assumed to be a cold blooded killer

25:23

who would murder anyone he could get his hands on.

25:27

This took some time to get used to. Melissa

25:44

and Sam had gone to visit her father

25:46

in prison, not knowing what to expect,

25:48

and they left with a very surreal souvenir.

25:53

Explain to me the picture. Because I look at that,

25:56

I'm like, that is the craziest family portrait

25:58

I've ever seen. Yeah, so when done,

26:00

there was an option to get a picture taken, and

26:03

so we did. We got a picture with Melissa's dad,

26:06

and to be honest with you, google the internet.

26:08

That will probably be the first thing that pops up

26:11

is a picture of Melissa's dad, my

26:13

daughter, my son, and me, and

26:16

you could see the size gap of me versus him,

26:19

and he's just a massive man. It

26:22

must have been a blessing that the kids were too small to

26:24

ask oh completely, you know, I Melissa

26:27

and I were sensitive for a long time because people

26:29

assess, how could you ever take your children around

26:32

such a horrible person. And I think

26:34

people don't understand what it was like. The

26:36

whole room was full of children, Like kids

26:38

were playing with their dads because their dads are coming

26:41

to visit their children, and

26:43

so I think what was stranger

26:45

is the fact that Melissa's dad, who murdered

26:47

eight people, would be in general population, which

26:50

is normal criminals.

26:52

I think that's the real question is how could somebody

26:55

do such horrific things and be

26:57

amidst people that maybe like smoked weed

27:00

and they were treated equally. Eventually,

27:05

Melissa's inability to connect with Sam

27:08

and to truly reciprocate his love took

27:11

its toll. There was

27:14

a comfort as roommates. We

27:16

got along great, and we were good friends.

27:18

We still are good friends, so it was easy

27:21

to stay longer and longer in

27:23

this relationship because we're such good friends.

27:26

But I knew when he brought up three

27:28

years ago that he wanted someone to be passionately

27:30

in love with him, that he

27:33

would find it, probably with someone

27:35

else. You guys just weren't

27:37

happy. Yeah,

27:42

I don't think we. If he

27:44

was honest, he would say he wasn't happy. He

27:47

wouldn't say that he wasn't happy with

27:49

me. He wasn't happy with living

27:52

without those things that he wanted in his life.

27:56

Sam said neither. He simply

27:59

acknowledged a burden Keith's crimes

28:01

placed on Melissa and how much

28:03

he'd seen her struggle to atone for

28:05

them, but he never blamed her.

28:09

I think it has compelled Melissa to have to be

28:12

harder on herself than the average

28:14

person. And we're all pretty hard

28:16

on ourselves as it is, Like, take

28:18

whatever you are as a person and

28:21

magnify that. I can only imagine

28:24

she's had to deal with people saying that she

28:27

was collecting blood money by sharing her story,

28:30

that we were irrational bad

28:32

parents by taking our kids to visit a serial

28:35

killer in a prison. I mean, you put it

28:37

in words, yeah, absolutely could

28:39

build an argument to that, but when you

28:41

put it into actuality of what really happened,

28:44

it's the furthest thing from the truth. Our

28:46

children have always come first from Melissa, and

28:49

I think it's compelled her to have to

28:52

over exaggerate her

28:54

feelings for other people, for herself,

28:56

for our kids, always kind of on the

28:58

defensive to prove that she's

29:00

not like her father. The

29:02

burden she carries must be immense. And

29:05

what's your take on Jess person as opposed

29:08

to your take on Melissa, Like,

29:10

if you had to be brutally honest about

29:13

your take on him, So, if I was to be brutally

29:15

honest, I would say that he definitely

29:18

corrupted his family, and he made

29:20

it so that they were in pain and in trauma,

29:23

and that pain and trauma is carried over into

29:25

her future relationships, and it's

29:27

made it so she's had to overcompensate to

29:30

define who she is, to separate

29:32

herself from who he is, and it's

29:34

put her in a really difficult situation. And

29:37

to say that there wasn't an impact would

29:40

not be honest. What's

29:42

Melissa's biggest fear? Abandonment?

29:46

I think I think she's afraid

29:48

that she'll be alone and that

29:51

she would end up being a lot like her dad,

29:54

that what everyone has said

29:56

is true. I think that's probably

29:59

her biggest fear. But anything that's changing,

30:01

like, I think she's becoming way more self aware.

30:04

I've seen how strong she was, and I really just

30:06

thought she could change the world, and

30:09

I thought by her sharing her story, other

30:12

people could have hope.

30:16

When I was eighteen nineteen, I was naive, still

30:18

naives to the world on

30:21

crime and everything I was.

30:25

I was basically a good person

30:27

that wouldn't never push

30:30

anything past anything. I would never do anything.

30:32

When did you stop hearing well

30:36

my divorce, the

30:40

different problems with my girlfriend

30:43

and trucking in

30:45

the jobs and everything kind

30:47

of escalating. I can't trust

30:49

nobody around me, and I only trust

30:51

myself, and you know, the

30:54

cruelty of life just

30:57

basically caused me

30:59

to think, well, hell,

31:04

what would you say if you could confront

31:07

jessperson on what he's

31:09

done? Okay, send Melissa to

31:11

his family. If he's listening to

31:13

this, what do you hope he hears? I

31:17

would tell him that

31:19

the way he treated his daughter complicated

31:23

my marriage, complicated

31:25

Melissa's life, but

31:28

didn't make it so it didn't get better,

31:30

and he has no control of anything.

31:33

Who he is is really insignificant,

31:37

and because of

31:39

the experiences that we've all gone through because

31:41

of him, we're actually stronger and

31:43

better. And it's okay

31:47

that he's not

31:49

remorseful for what he's done,

31:51

because everyone else's remorse makes up

31:53

the difference. And if he goes

31:56

away, he goes away alone

31:58

and without

32:02

everything hurts

32:04

about building a life

32:06

with someone and

32:09

then deciding to separate.

32:12

I really discredited hearing

32:15

from other people when they said they

32:17

went through a divorce. It just seemed

32:19

almost so casual

32:21

because I was so removed from their lives. But the

32:23

pain is actually more intense than

32:25

I ever thought was possible. It's

32:30

mourning, yeah, it's absolutely

32:32

grieving. There's anger.

32:35

There are the five stages of grief for sure,

32:38

and I've gone through all of them and I've

32:40

read every book I could read, and they say it takes like

32:42

two years for you to feel normal again. And

32:45

it's probably very similar to someone who

32:47

lost someone that they loved to death in some

32:50

ways, just because

32:52

you're used to the little things, the day to

32:54

day things like calling after a meeting or

32:57

when you get home having the

32:59

dishes, I'm all ready for you, or you

33:01

know those, you can lean on that person, and

33:03

then when you divorce

33:06

and separate, then now

33:08

you have to create a new life, a new normalcy.

33:12

She always talks about how she's leaned in on me,

33:14

but I've always leaned in on her, like

33:17

she went through such trauma and so much pain,

33:20

and she found her voice even

33:23

when it's not easy to do. She still

33:25

continuously puts herself in situations

33:27

that most people want to do. She's

33:30

so brave and watching

33:32

her be brave, as I'll be be brave. I

33:39

like kids. I like my kids, but I wasn't

33:42

really a family man. I really didn't want to be the

33:44

family man. I didn't want

33:46

the I didn't want to end up like well,

33:50

put my kids through what I went through, and here

33:52

I am putting through, putting them through worse

33:54

and what I went through, you know, a lot of

33:56

things because you're they have to

33:59

be raised with the idea that dad's a killer, murderer.

34:06

My fear still to this day, is that

34:08

I'm incapable of loving in

34:11

the way that people expect me to love

34:13

them. You know, Sam swears

34:15

that I probably could love him the way he wants

34:17

to be loved, but I don't believe. I

34:20

just don't want to lie to people. I don't want to feel like

34:22

a fraud of living too many years feeling

34:24

like a fraud, and I feel like the best policies

34:27

just to be up front and let people decide

34:30

if this works for them or not. And so with

34:32

Sam, I've been really transparent with him

34:35

to let him know that this

34:37

is where I stand, this is what I am,

34:40

and my

34:42

level of being able to give. Is

34:45

it about control, though? Is your

34:47

fear of love about

34:49

losing control, about letting go, about

34:52

having something have power over you? Absolutely,

34:56

because if you fall in love, you

34:58

give up your loverage you

35:01

give up. You

35:03

can be blindsided in a hot moment, and

35:05

I don't want to ever be that vulnerable,

35:07

to be blindsided, and I

35:10

just don't want to

35:12

risk that again. On

35:20

the next Happy Face, Melissa

35:23

faces her greatest fears and

35:26

her father's demons. But

35:28

it seems now that you want the

35:30

world to know who you are, not

35:32

Melissa More, but the daughter

35:35

of the Happy Face Killer. I've

35:38

created a monster in you. This

35:43

is why I don't lead these letters.

35:49

Happy Face is a production of How Stuff Works.

35:52

Executive producers are Melissa Moore, Lauren

35:54

Bright, Pacheco Mangesha Ticketur,

35:57

and Will Pearson. Supervising

35:59

producer is no Brown. Music

36:01

by Claire Campbell, Paige Campbell and Hope

36:03

for a Golden Summer. Story

36:05

editor is Matt Riddle. Audio editing

36:08

by Chandler Mays and Noel Brown. Assistant

36:11

editor is Taylor Chicogne. Special

36:13

thanks to Phil Stanford, the publishers of

36:15

The Oregonian Newspaper, and the Carlisle

36:17

family.