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1:00

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I did a little research, I found out that

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1:56

Hey everyone, this is Sarah. Would

1:58

you like to take a more active role in the hide

2:00

and seek community. Would

2:02

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2:06

Join us in the hide and seek podcast discussion

2:08

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2:12

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2:17

This podcast deals with mature topics

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heard on the hide and seek podcast is intended

2:25

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2:27

discretion is advised.

2:41

24. We're going to stage three. Gilder Winchester

2:43

just tonight to speak with the missing woman's

2:45

mother about what may have happened

2:48

to her daughter. I

2:50

can tell you where she most likely is.

2:54

I hadn't seen anybody that I felt comfortable

2:56

saying anything to

2:58

until today. The

3:00

stories they tell are pretty soft. They're pretty

3:03

freaking awesome.

3:05

I need all the text messages,

3:07

Facebook

3:07

messages, the messages

3:09

between me and Brittany. I have all of them. I

3:13

have everything. I told myself kill

3:15

all them motherfuckers and I was going

3:17

to have my people fucking take care of

3:20

it.

3:28

It was a visual

4:02

I

4:16

just want to say how much I love Cage when he does the right thing.

4:21

I'm so glad the laptop found its way. I

4:26

can't imagine being Jessica standing there, not knowing

4:28

if her child was about to be found. I

4:32

can't imagine the emotions the air was filled with at

4:35

the cemetery going through the locations.

4:39

This episode makes me feel like there's so much hope in finding

4:42

her. Great

4:44

job team. Hey

4:48

guys. The

4:50

words you just heard are feedback from the last episode

4:53

when we wrapped up our visit to the cemetery. For

4:56

now. A

4:59

friend of Cage's that loaned it to Ashley while

5:01

she and Cage were living with her. Des

5:05

told us how she came into possession of her laptop

5:07

after Ashley was asked to leave the property and

5:09

took the laptop with her. So

5:13

what's the plan? The plan

5:15

is to discuss the laptop with the detective when

5:17

I make her return to Sturgis. I

5:22

met with someone who shared with us a memory of

5:25

a time when he was with Ashley after Brittany disappeared.

5:29

He said while he was relaxing with her one evening,

5:31

his vantage point allowed him to view

5:33

her phone screen. He recounts

5:36

watching her access and delete Brittany's Facebook account.

5:40

We went back in time to October of 2022

5:42

and visited a cemetery with cadaver dogs

5:45

and not one but two visits with a GPR.

5:49

The preliminary was done by the search and rescue team

5:52

and the follow up was done by our friends Mike and Sean

5:54

from Work anomaly

6:00

under the surface of the earth on the backside of the gravestone.

6:03

Somewhere remains would typically be.

6:06

After sharing results with Detective Auden and Sheriff

6:08

Harker from LaGrange County, Indiana,

6:11

we moved forward with a dig to identify the anomaly

6:13

remains. After

6:16

waiting for what seemed like ages, Detective

6:19

Auden called me and told me,

6:21

There was nothing found.

6:25

A wise person once said, I would

6:27

rather have questions that cannot be answered than

6:30

answers that cannot be questioned. By

6:33

the time those results came in, it

6:35

was too late in the season to consider a follow-up plan

6:38

to travel back to Michigan. So

6:40

we'll continue to question the answers provided until

6:44

such time when we can answer these questions ourselves.

6:49

Sheriff Harker, thanks for your willingness

6:51

to help. Community

6:56

engagement matters and is essential for

6:58

empowering individuals and communities to

7:00

participate in the process of government decision-making.

7:05

Communities aren't limited to the place you call home. Take

7:09

my listeners for example, the

7:11

hide and seek community. Those

7:14

who seek justice in this case make up a community.

7:17

And communities aren't simply a group of people who

7:19

have a particular characteristic in common. When

7:23

people are encouraged to participate in projects

7:25

that impact a community, they

7:27

are part of it.

7:30

It facilitates equitable, fair and

7:32

sustainable outcomes and increases

7:34

visibility and understanding. It

7:38

is the profound connection between neighbors, friends

7:40

and strangers who come together for a

7:42

common purpose. This

7:46

unbreakable bond is nurtured by acts of selflessness

7:48

and empathy, reminding us all

7:51

of the strength that lies within our collective energy. It

7:55

is a gift that keeps on giving, a

7:57

powerful reminder that together we can conquer

7:59

any other. and create a world where compassion

8:02

and unity can prevail. I'm

8:05

sure you recall the community rally that was organized

8:07

by a community member named Jackie. Jackie

8:10

enlisted the help of other community members, and

8:12

the rally was held in March, 2023. Many

8:16

of us will never forget the loud demands for justice from

8:18

the devoted group of attendees, including Brittany's

8:21

family, who showed their support for one another,

8:24

but also encouraged law enforcement

8:26

to reinvest into Brittany's case. Jackie

8:33

and those who assisted her continued to call for community

8:36

engagement in April with a letter-writing

8:38

campaign. Form

8:42

letters calling for action to be taken in Brittany's

8:44

case flooded St. Joseph County Sheriff's

8:46

Department. Over

8:49

a thousand letters were sent from all 50 states,

8:51

as well as Canada, Australia, Portugal,

8:54

Scotland, United Kingdom, and New Zealand.

8:59

Jackie,

9:00

for those who don't know, you were

9:02

in charge of putting together a rally. From

9:04

the sheriff's office, did

9:07

a whole rally, Jessica's there, had a great turnout. You

9:10

wanted to write a letter to the sheriff's office. What

9:13

inspired you to do that?

9:16

Well, I feel that

9:19

you had put forth a lot

9:22

of evidence. There has

9:24

been a crime committed against Brittany. I

9:27

feel like you had put enough evidence out there

9:30

to support that a crime had been

9:32

committed against her. Crying

9:35

against the case, I

9:37

didn't feel the law enforcement was

9:39

acting on that. There

9:42

was a lot that swept the up. We

9:45

needed to get their attention. Not

9:48

only with the rally, but

9:50

follow it up with a letter campaign

9:52

to the under sheriff and the detective

9:55

cutting the case. To hear our voices,

9:57

but it just wasn't a one-day thing.

10:00

with the rally and will go away.

10:04

What were you looking for the sheriff's office to do? And

10:07

what was the response that you were calling for? My

10:11

expectations were they

10:16

would look

10:18

at the evidence and the crimes against the

10:21

case and the person who has taken

10:23

over Brittany's account illegally,

10:27

tampered with evidence, competed

10:29

the investigation,

10:29

and

10:32

do something about that. Call the

10:34

person to cab, hold them

10:36

accountable for

10:39

the mess they have made of this

10:41

case, thoroughly investigate

10:44

the whereabouts of Brittany's

10:47

husband, thoroughly

10:50

investigate the whereabouts of

10:52

the best friend who had entered

10:54

all of these accounts, trying

10:57

to call to action to get them to move

10:59

an act that we

11:01

as a community see that

11:04

these things have been done against this case

11:07

and you as law enforcement need to do something

11:09

about it. It

11:12

was far beyond my expectations.

11:15

We had over 1,000 letters

11:17

to each officer go

11:20

in to them.

11:22

They heard us loud and clear. We

11:25

had people from all over the states.

11:28

We had people from other countries. I

11:30

don't know if you were aware of that or not, but...

11:33

We were definitely keeping track of where

11:36

and how many. When I'm

11:38

looking at cases to pick, I want the cases that

11:40

aren't talked about. Didn't

11:42

get a lot of media attention. I

11:44

mean, Brittany's name and her story

11:47

has spread knowing that

11:49

you put this campaign to encourage

11:51

people to write these letters and that they would write this

11:53

far from across the world

11:56

to say, this girl matters, what does

11:58

that do for you?

11:59

those who can't see you're tearing up now

12:02

just knowing the movement that this

12:04

generated. What

12:06

if I had let my fear

12:09

stop me from reaching out

12:11

to you? What if I had let

12:13

that stop me? And so I'm

12:15

very thankful the Lord pushed

12:17

me to do it, the courage to

12:19

do it. I just can't even believe

12:23

the response that we got. Here's

12:25

it for the family because that's really why I

12:28

got involved.

12:29

The family included help and

12:32

encouragement. People to come alongside

12:34

them and get law enforcement

12:36

to take this case seriously.

12:39

They were doing a lot of searches but

12:41

they weren't doing the

12:43

legwork with the investigation with

12:45

the people

12:45

and interrogating them

12:48

as they should have. Let's

12:51

say, hide and seek season four,

12:53

season two, season one, let's say there's a

12:56

person in the community who's probably sitting

12:58

in the seat just like you were and in considering,

13:01

do I take that leap? And like you said, there's a part

13:03

where you feel a little fearful. Did you feel almost like,

13:06

I don't know how to do this and almost like I shouldn't do

13:08

any of this at all? Stop

13:10

out and safe and do it.

13:12

I had no idea what I was doing. You

13:15

and Sarah are a great support

13:17

system but so is the hide and seek community,

13:20

a great support system. Stop

13:22

out and safe and ask.

13:24

Even if you don't know them, I didn't know

13:26

the family at all.

13:29

There are people in your community that need support

13:32

whether you know them or not. Come alongside and support

13:34

them.

13:37

The letter campaign produced results we're still hearing

13:39

about months later. Driven

13:42

by a sincere desire to raise awareness, we

13:44

chose Brittany's case for season three.

13:47

Awareness is born from exposure and exposure

13:49

comes from shining a light on those who have been lost in

13:52

the shadows. Brittany,

13:56

just like Nancy and Logan represents

13:59

one of the countless missing persons whose story has not

14:01

been heard or seen as widely as it deserves.

14:04

It's a poignant reality that not every missing person

14:07

receives the level of exposure they should. And

14:10

it's the imbalance that community engagement, like

14:12

the letter writing campaign helps to conquer. I

14:15

want to personally thank Jackie and Susan for spearheading

14:17

this campaign. And to the hundreds of people

14:19

from the hide and seek community who showed up for change.

14:24

For Brittany,

14:26

for her family, and

14:28

for justice.

14:31

Nothing fuels transformation more passionately than

14:33

the community discovering what it cares about.

14:40

Since we began working on Brittany's case, there's

14:42

been no shortage of odd occurrences and

14:45

they continue to happen. A

14:47

small action has shown to have a ripple effect

14:50

and impact us or our actions

14:52

somewhere down the line. Let

14:54

me introduce you to the butterfly

14:56

effect. The butterfly effect describes a phenomenon where a minor

14:59

change in circumstances may cause

15:01

a major change in outcome. When

15:04

we initially started investigating

15:06

Brittany's case, a few people sent us Brittany's call log

15:09

of outgoing calls that Christina M and Jessica

15:11

obtained shortly

15:13

after Brittany disappeared. Like

15:15

most people, we checked out the numbers

15:17

on the call log. One of those

15:19

numbers came back with a few listings and one of those listings

15:22

led to an AT&T customer named Brittany. AT&T

15:25

customer named Zach. Yeah,

15:28

I know. Another

15:31

duplicate name. We'll

15:33

call him Zach H. Keep things straight.

15:37

We saw comments in different places concerning Zach

15:39

H and his phone number. When

15:42

I decided it was time to pursue information about

15:44

Zach H, he was incarcerated.

15:46

Now it's not only Zach's phone number that's cause of concern

15:50

because two days before Brittany disappears, something

15:53

odd takes place on Facebook. It pinks

15:55

my radar again after we received the case

15:57

file because in 2020. The

16:00

witness came forward to law enforcement stating that while both

16:02

passengers were in the vehicle He

16:05

confessed to the homicide of Brittany Shayne I

16:08

got word that Zach was released after many attempts.

16:10

I was finally able to speak

16:13

to Zach Hello

16:32

Hello What's

16:34

going

16:35

on man? Oh hell I'm breathing

16:38

I'm dacing I guess Appreciate

16:40

you jumping on this man I definitely been

16:44

wanting to chat for a little bit just because

16:46

obviously you know what I'm doing Jessica probably

16:48

informed you who I am what I'm doing

16:51

while I'm doing it Yeah, she

16:53

told me I mean I've

16:56

heard of you from other people too I know a bunch of people

16:58

that listen to you I mean you're a storyteller

17:01

right? Some people don't know anything

17:03

about your story I don't really know how much help I'll be for you though bud

17:06

I don't know You never knew Brittany though

17:10

Not

17:10

a day in your life never met her No sir, I don't

17:13

know My

17:18

own mother My

17:21

own mother My own mother My

17:24

own

17:25

mother My own mother

17:28

Do you go by Arkansas? Is that your nickname as well? Yeah Yeah,

17:33

sometimes I don't tell my name How did you meet Jessica?

17:36

I met her through a mutual friend of ours Was

17:38

it before Brittany went missing? I thought

17:41

it was probably I had my discussion

17:43

a few years ago Where were you living

17:45

in 2018? I didn't play the rest Had

17:48

you ever been to the United States? No, I haven't

17:52

I haven't been to the United States I can't

17:54

play the rest

17:59

Man, I bounced all over the damn place to tell

18:02

you the truth. Pretty

18:04

sure that's when I dated one of my county years.

18:07

A good portion of it that was locked up, if

18:09

I'm not mistaken. Obviously,

18:12

you know your name's been thrown into the mix.

18:15

Whoever brought it in, there's lots of just different

18:18

stories and rumors, but I'd just love to hear what you've heard.

18:21

According to a county

18:23

detective, my name is Brody

18:26

Unbound and Steve Conde and

18:28

Tracy Abrams. I

18:30

took through my name in the mix, to the police anyway.

18:36

I don't know exactly what to say, bud.

18:40

I was actually being booked

18:42

out of the county jail and

18:45

had a detective waiting on me under the library and

18:50

asked me if I would speak to him for a moment. We

18:54

went back here and talked about it.

18:59

He asked me some questions.

19:00

I told him that I thought

19:03

I was incarcerated during the time, but I wasn't sure.

19:06

Pretty close to when I was supposed to be incarcerated. He

19:09

did some checking, checked

19:11

up my story and everything, said that I

19:13

was good to go. I asked

19:15

him before I left, well you know, since it

19:18

was all bullshit, I'd like to know who

19:20

the hell threw my name out there like that.

19:22

He was more than happy to tell me, actually.

19:25

Apparently they don't

19:27

like it when you feel ahead full of shit.

19:41

All I know is that

19:43

apparently Tracy in the state said

19:45

that I was involved with

19:48

the killing of her, whatever it was. I'm

19:51

saying, like I said, it's been years ago when he questioned

19:54

me, so I don't really remember specifically.

19:56

It was all bullshit anyway.

19:58

I didn't know that he...

19:59

I was more mad about the package, I took them in the

20:02

mix of that bullshit.

20:05

What's your level of, do you

20:07

sell drugs? Do you buy? How

20:09

often? 10. Well, buddy,

20:11

that ain't nothing about this investigation. It

20:15

has a role, yeah. I

20:19

mean, in the past I have, I guess. I've

20:23

been convicted of it so.

20:25

It is what it is, right? So the reason why

20:27

I say it does have a role and does have a place is because

20:30

Brittany, she was looking for dope the night

20:33

she went missing.

20:34

Yeah, definitely. Wouldn't have

20:36

been for me, bud. At

20:39

one point you did sell, right? Yeah,

20:42

at one point. Back years ago. How

20:45

long ago? Well,

20:47

I did drug court 2020. So

20:51

I had to be before then.

20:53

Some of the characters involved in this case, do you know

20:56

most of them such as Eric,

20:58

Shank, JJ Fox, Don

21:00

Hill, Ashley Marie? I

21:03

know Eric, Shank, Burley, know

21:05

JJ Fox a little bit. What

21:08

about Ashley? Ashley

21:10

who? Ashley Marie. Oh,

21:13

actually, I know

21:15

her somewhat. Yeah.

21:18

I know her. You're the first person

21:20

to correct me with her last name.

21:23

I like to say that I didn't know her. He

21:26

was a friend of a girl

21:29

I was kind of talking

21:31

to, saying a little bit. So

21:33

I met her. What year was

21:35

that? Like 2017 or so.

21:40

I mean, we were cool. I guess

21:42

we weren't really close or nothing like that. Any

21:46

dealings together? Yeah,

21:51

a little bit here now, I guess.

21:53

What was your dealings like with Ashley? What did

21:56

you buy from her? Did she buy from you?

21:59

Wow.

21:59

I didn't buy from very many people. So

22:04

she most of them bought from me.

22:08

Let's back up to the to the point where you were talking

22:10

about Mystique and Tracy and what they had said to

22:13

law enforcement on how that's how you got brought into

22:15

this, right?

22:16

Yes, sir.

22:18

So you referred her to

22:20

a different last name, but Tracy, you said Tracy

22:22

Abraham. Is that right? Abraham,

22:25

Sir Scott, whatever you want. What

22:28

was the relationship between you

22:30

two?

22:32

She was

22:34

a friend of what

22:38

I call family up here. Her

22:41

dad lived with my best friend's

22:44

mother. She's kind

22:48

of almost, I

22:51

guess, family, I guess, to a certain

22:53

extent. I

22:56

know her dad real well, but I didn't

22:59

know her so well. She's

23:02

kind of strange, I guess. I mean,

23:05

I know we're all a little quirky, a little

23:07

weird, but she's a little bit stranger. Most.

23:13

So she's somewhat of a spice cadet,

23:15

if you would. Is

23:17

someone here with us? Yeah,

23:20

a friend of mine just walked into the room.

23:22

She says she's a big fan.

23:26

So Tracy doesn't really know this crowd of people.

23:30

No, but it's a time to know

23:33

with her telling the police

23:35

that her and Mystique were hanging out

23:38

real thick. And Mystique

23:40

and I had a brief between

23:42

us. Tracy, I've

23:44

been trying to get ahold of her. Do you know how I can get ahold of her? I

23:47

do not. I mean, I could possibly ask

23:50

mom. Mom would like to forget

23:54

what her story was that

23:56

she told them, because I made it to his mom and everybody else. You

23:58

know, when I come tell them. So

24:01

she had some broken issues.

24:05

So Tracy said you had made a comment

24:07

to her while you were in the backseat of

24:09

a car. She says

24:11

you tell her that you were

24:14

involved in Brittany's disappearance.

24:17

Never happened. Never had heard the backseat

24:19

of a car. I've never had heard

24:22

the backseat of a car in my ever. So

24:26

no kind of thing. I don't know. She was saying you

24:29

both were in the back or she was in the back or you were in the back

24:31

and she was driving. You were driving. I have no idea. Like

24:34

I said, but me and her have never been

24:37

in the backseat of a car in Cass County. I

24:40

believe the only time I ever rode in the backseat of

24:42

any car that she was in. They've

24:45

been in a car that her and her girlfriend

24:48

once was from pre-reverse to white pigeon. And

24:51

that's nowhere near Cass County. Comments

24:53

were never brought up about Brittany.

24:55

I

24:58

never commented on her because I didn't know the girl.

25:01

Had any dealings with her, never had any interaction

25:03

with her. So while

25:06

I feel bad about it, same

25:08

time it's not off. You know, I don't

25:10

talk about it. I don't really get interested

25:13

in things like it.

25:14

When you got questioned and everything, did you ever

25:17

actually go look at where you were at on November 30th, 2018? I

25:21

said I think that I was incarcerated

25:24

during that time period. With them pulling

25:26

you in, I would imagine if they would have looked at it, they wouldn't

25:28

have pulled you in and said, well, it's not possible if he's here.

25:31

Actually, whenever I

25:33

brought it up to him, it was the first time he

25:36

thought about that, I guess. I

25:39

assumed that was correct because he never contacted

25:41

me again. I

25:43

could be wrong.

25:45

Ashley Marie, what's your relationship

25:48

like with her?

25:50

Today? I mean,

25:55

today, I'm not fancy lying to you very much. Why?

25:59

Just broke up.

25:59

personal reasons I guess, kind of pissed

26:02

her off one way or another.

26:06

She was kind of staying down close

26:08

to where I was in Motville here

26:11

recently. Probably back about seven,

26:14

eight, nine months ago, something like that. Even

26:17

a ride to a store or something, she left a bag in my vehicle,

26:19

some chick went through it or some shit. I

26:21

don't know. The whole bunch of damn

26:23

ground-mung bullshit I didn't want no part of. After

26:27

she moved out of Village Manor, then

26:29

I didn't really have any dealings

26:32

with her until here recently. Definitely

26:36

didn't like a lot of questioning about anything

26:38

other to do with her, but uh...

26:42

I had all the direct questions, and

26:44

I didn't do my job with prodding around and picking around,

26:46

trying to figure out, like I said, I got to kick the tree as hard

26:48

as I can and shake it as hard as I can for

26:50

this girl who's missing. I know you get it. I don't mind.

26:54

Yeah, I get it. I don't mind because, like

26:56

I said, I'm doing it as a favor to get

26:58

there. I

27:00

really don't have any bad feelings to it. Jessica or Heather,

27:02

I'm about to say it better, I suppose. If anything

27:05

I had to do to help her, I would.

27:07

I would just say, anybody trying to hide anything

27:09

to do with any part of their life,

27:12

I might just... In your

27:14

line of questioning, probably would seem difficult

27:16

to deal with, make things a little

27:18

harder. So I'm trying to be as forthcoming

27:20

as I can, as much as I don't mind some

27:23

of your questions.

27:25

I appreciate it. Like you

27:27

said, you understand why we're doing it. I've

27:30

read the testimony from Tracy.

27:33

We've had the conversation. Never

27:35

happened. Never was in the car. Never admitted to it.

27:39

Have you ever confronted Tracy about this?

27:42

Oh yeah, I did. You're damn right, I did. What

27:44

did she say?

27:47

Oh, she kind of tried to

27:49

giggle about it at first, because she said I was pretty dressed

27:51

up.

27:52

Then she apologized and said

27:54

something about mistake and

27:56

something else, you know, basically

27:58

a mistake put her up to the end. whatever

28:00

yeah it was a

28:03

bullshit it was on you put you up to it that's

28:05

not something you do

28:07

have you ever confronted misty

28:10

yeah yeah

28:13

the same thing she always says

28:16

I'm sorry I was mad at you again or some

28:18

shit like that you know

28:22

yeah it's wonderful some

28:24

people you just can't reason with or talk to you know

28:26

I mean they get it they get it not

28:28

want to get it in their back so I

28:30

just let her go

28:32

the other direction it's in a high

28:34

profile case such as this you

28:37

factor in probably about 95% of what she

28:39

is gonna be bullshit

28:44

only one of these stories is true

28:46

and what led to her disappearance and what led

28:49

to so of course there's a lot of rabbit

28:51

trails that we had to go down everybody

28:54

wants to be famous you know everybody

28:56

wants to go 10 minutes of pain I

28:59

know this and this and that really

29:01

they don't know shit

29:04

I don't know a damn thing so I don't claim

29:07

to know I can appreciate

29:09

an honest conversation someone not taking me down on these

29:11

rabbit trails

29:14

so Ashley had

29:18

got to the point of accessing Brittany's account

29:20

information her emails

29:22

to her Facebook to her

29:24

text now that's

29:27

impressive okay

29:31

so does she

29:33

have any I mean interactions with anybody

29:36

that night or that day that

29:38

would help I mean it seems

29:40

like that would be pretty good information

29:44

that's kind of where we're getting to

29:49

on November 28 2018 do you

29:54

remember sending Brittany

29:56

a Facebook friend request because

29:59

it's on there that she

29:59

rejected your friend request.

30:03

No, I don't recall that. And

30:06

I guess it could have happened. Cause

30:08

I want to back up to the comment about how you had

30:11

never met her. Didn't know her. You only knew mom.

30:16

Keep it at 100 with you. I'm going off and just the facts

30:18

are a friend

30:21

requests rejected on November 28th, So

30:24

if we didn't know her, what's going on?

30:28

Well, I can't tell you, man, there could have been

30:30

any number of things. I

30:34

thought she was somebody else. Well, I know it's 2018.

30:38

That's a long time ago. I'll

30:40

tell you this though.

30:43

You ain't find no messages back and forth or

30:46

nothing like that.

30:49

There isn't any messages between the two of you.

30:51

So there's no interactions, not, you know, as

30:53

far as conversations, the night she went

30:55

missing or anything like that.

30:59

And I

30:59

just can't actually missing on the same period point

31:02

three ever. Do you remember

31:04

sending the firm request? I

31:07

do not. So maybe it's

31:09

an accidental thing. I couldn't tell

31:11

you. I would

31:13

almost guarantee that it was

31:16

accidental because I don't, I

31:18

said, I didn't know her take

31:22

way. I think

31:25

it was afterwards anyway, a

31:28

pretty close to the, yeah, it's pretty, might

31:31

be close to the times, but this is what I think was

31:33

still afterwards.

31:36

Like you were mentioning earlier, you

31:38

said you could see a mother

31:41

doing whatever she can to try to figure out what happened to her daughter.

31:45

Of course, I do whatever I could to figure out my

31:48

kids. Do

31:51

you remember your phone number? What

31:53

by fan hell? No, that's

31:56

something I do. I've had so many different frigging

31:58

numbers.

31:59

figured it out to me I might would know it but... Jessica

32:04

when Brittany went missing she actually went down

32:06

to boost was able to talk

32:09

to a representative there who was able to

32:12

share with Jessica

32:15

the call log of Brittany's last

32:18

phone calls the day she went missing. So

32:22

this is on November 30th the day that she was missing.

32:26

I have a program that I'm able to

32:29

look up information on phone numbers. And

32:33

so I'm able to see who she was talking to on the

32:36

day that she went missing. Brittany

32:44

has eight phone

32:47

calls outbound and

32:50

mostly calls are short and brief but

32:53

there's one phone call about

32:55

three minutes long. When

32:59

I run the number on this number

33:01

that was on her report it came

33:04

back to your name. What

33:07

was the number? Did

33:09

you talk to her?

33:12

No I have a nurse phone care.

33:17

The number is...

33:24

That

33:27

is one of your numbers? One

33:30

of my old ones yeah really

33:33

really I don't want to hide her for a while. So

33:36

Zach why is there a three-minute phone call on her

33:38

call log if that's one of your old numbers?

33:45

Not just found like somebody that's found

33:48

a dodge or anything like that

33:50

but

33:52

I mean at the end of it I didn't have that number

33:54

any longer because it was stolen. What

33:57

do you mean it was stolen? The phone was

33:59

stolen from me. at one point can't

34:01

remember when exactly

34:03

it was. And

34:06

I mean, I don't know.

34:09

I said, I've never spoken to her and there ain't any dealings

34:11

with her. So I don't

34:14

know. I

34:17

wish I had a better answer than that.

34:21

Put yourself in my shoes. If

34:24

I was fighting for your kid right here, you

34:26

wouldn't want me to be okay with just accepting that. So I'm

34:28

going to keep pushing. You

34:30

can keep listening, but

34:34

I mean, I wouldn't deny only civil. I know it

34:36

was my number at one time. A

34:41

prepaid number. I believe maybe

34:43

18-3. Yep.

34:46

And I'm still prepaid.

34:49

Like I told you, it was stolen

34:52

from me after I came and we have it.

34:55

So let's talk about that because I got to make sense of

34:57

this three minutes because this is one of her longer phone

34:59

calls that she has on the day that she goes

35:01

missing. So I'm trying to understand what's going on. I

35:04

don't trust you, but if I

35:07

had any inclination at all,

35:10

I definitely wouldn't set myself up to look like that.

35:13

How is the phone number stolen

35:15

then? Like everything, the phone and

35:19

SIM card, all of that was stolen.

35:23

It happens all the time, but you know how

35:25

many phones I go through? It seems like there's

35:27

something, there's a relationship

35:29

there or whatever. I don't

35:32

know what it is, but I got November 28th, her

35:35

rejecting this friend request from you, but

35:37

you don't remember it. Okay. People send from her

35:39

friend requests all the time. I'm not gonna say

35:41

that that's a major deal, but when I'm

35:43

stacking this stuff together, she rejected

35:45

it, but then she calls you. I'm trying

35:47

to figure out what the three minute phone call is about, especially

35:49

since we know, obviously it was your phone number. I

35:53

don't know. I mean,

35:55

I can't remember when my phone got stolen, if

35:57

it was during that time or not.

35:59

I also can't remember if she

36:02

was friends for the mutual friend of mine or something.

36:04

You have my number for somebody else. I

36:06

can't tell you what happened, bud. I can't tell

36:09

you. I

36:11

should tell you, I never talked to her on my phone. So

36:13

I can tell you. So

36:16

I mean, if it was a 30 minute call to somebody, it was

36:19

somebody and I had no knowledge of it,

36:21

kind of a lot of clarification for you, but I mean, that's the best

36:24

thing to do for you. Well,

36:27

let's continue with it.

36:29

If you say someone stole your phone, I'm

36:31

not saying right. Can you during the time period, I'm just saying

36:33

the reason I didn't have that number anymore

36:36

is because it was stolen at some point. I

36:38

don't know when roundabout,

36:41

no, I couldn't say. It

36:44

could have been, she called

36:46

out somebody else. I don't know, but

36:49

it wasn't a phone call

36:51

to me. I've never said

36:53

I know her mom, not her. And

36:56

wonderful journal. She

36:57

even wrote this phone number down. So obviously this phone number

36:59

was important to her. She

37:01

wrote my number down.

37:02

Yeah. I'm

37:07

trying to understand

37:08

this.

37:16

Yeah. I wish I could

37:18

help you, but I don't know.

37:20

I

37:22

had a number for, I never know. I never know

37:25

for a while. Say all day quick. It

37:27

was a long time. I mean, I had the number for

37:29

a while and it only has no one eventually. That's

37:32

one that you had over a month. Yeah.

37:35

Well, because at first it wasn't a night that's. Yes.

37:40

Okay. Well, can you

37:42

inform me what I didn't hear? She

37:45

was saying that she was remembering having that

37:47

number. So

37:51

here's my thing is let's say that number is stolen or

37:53

that phone is stolen from you, right? We

37:57

got to figure out when

37:59

Right when and that

38:02

it just they did hey man. Here's the thing This

38:04

doesn't obviously look good when it's to your phone

38:06

the day that she goes missing and

38:09

you're saying hey man I didn't have

38:11

anything to do with it. I didn't talk to her. I didn't have

38:13

it wasn't on the phone with her That wasn't me on a three-minute phone

38:15

call. So someone stole the phone. So

38:17

you were saying earlier. I don't know how I can

38:19

help out This

38:21

is a big fucking piece

38:25

Well, if you got stolen when she thinks

38:27

you got stolen when I pistol everything if that's

38:29

when it has stolen When did she think it got

38:32

stolen? When

38:34

I first moved to my bill We've

38:36

been several years ago Would

38:38

have been back before the record

38:41

No, no, not really yet I

38:44

would have been through his trailer part over

38:46

behind McDonald's That

38:48

the phone got stolen Yeah,

38:51

yeah, we're roundabout. I'm trying to pinpoint

38:54

where I was hanging out and everything and understand

38:56

this a number of years

38:58

you're what five years ago, I So

39:02

yeah, you've been the trade parker behind

39:05

McDonald's more

39:08

than likely a Friend of

39:10

mine was staying there and he tried to express

39:13

for most of my time Bring

39:16

me home here. We're trying to figure out when

39:18

the cell phone was cell phone was taken stolen

39:26

Yeah, I'm kind of in it now for you roundabout

39:28

I Don't

39:31

want to tell you something false, you know, maybe no,

39:33

you're good. You're good. I'm okay with people trying

39:36

to recount their memories So that's how it works.

39:38

You have to put the story together to figure

39:40

out but let's do it though Let's

39:44

go back to 2018 Zach You

39:47

had that phone number you got it was a

39:49

prepaid phone number from AT&T Man

39:57

five years ago

39:59

You would know when your phone was stolen. If

40:03

you can remember setting up a prepaid account and you remember

40:05

it was who the carrier was, you know, of

40:08

course, if someone stole my phone, not

40:10

so much necessarily the specific date, but the

40:12

incident, the incident in itself,

40:15

I'm just trying to help you out here and trying to understand

40:17

and remember. I mean, yeah,

40:19

this is kind of where I was going with,

40:23

like I was hanging out over.

40:27

Oh, wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute.

40:30

I don't know when it was either one of

40:32

the ones from,

40:34

or when it's the one that got taken in

40:37

Niles. I can't remember

40:40

which fucking one it was. Bear

40:42

with me.

40:43

I said, I've had a lot of phones stolen over

40:46

the years. Now I'm a prepaid, so

40:48

I mean, I would usually just get a different number. What

40:52

sticks out to me is one that

40:54

you knew was AT&T. That

40:56

was one of the problems that I had

40:58

for a longer period of time. And I mean, that

41:00

number is one of them that I kept for a while.

41:03

All right, well, let's keep digging because this is what

41:05

I do, man. I'm going to be patient with it. Let's figure it out.

41:09

Let's figure it out when this thing was stolen,

41:11

where you were at, so I can go question them if that's the case.

41:14

Right. Because if they stole your phone, man, and they're

41:16

calling and they make that, and Brittany makes that call to them, and

41:19

I'm looking at the wrong guy, right? And then that's,

41:21

obviously, I'm sitting in front of you for a reason, but if I'm

41:23

going after the wrong person, I want to go after, I don't want to get

41:26

the wrong person here, man.

41:28

I get what you're trying to go on right here, but

41:31

I get that it don't look real good.

41:36

You're going back to me.

41:39

Like, I did something, had something to do with it. You

41:43

definitely going after the wrong guy.

41:45

You're definitely wasting your time. None of this

41:47

is a waste of my time.

41:49

I'm peeling back the layers here.

41:51

And I'm here, right? We're here. We're having

41:53

a conversation. This phone call has been a big issue of

41:55

mine that's been sticking out for a while because I'm

41:57

looking at who she talked to the day of...

41:59

her disappearance.

42:04

I know that she's looking for drugs. Obviously

42:08

with your history, I'm not here

42:11

to say, Hey man, you're the guy who did it. Tell us the truth.

42:13

I'm also just trying to understand the whole picture. If you

42:15

were offering drugs to people and you were selling and she was

42:17

looking and I know that she was trying to get dope because she

42:19

contacted the next lover of hers that night and

42:23

he says, Hey, it's not, it's not going to happen. She moves

42:25

on to the next dealer.

42:28

Ashley was her dealer or Eric was

42:30

her dealer. That's not going well and she doesn't

42:32

go to them.

42:35

I'm trying to understand, okay, well who else is she buying

42:37

from? And when I look at her phone log,

42:40

the only person

42:43

left it made. That's

42:46

where we're at.

42:48

If you're saying Zach, Hey, I'm not

42:50

the guy. I'm

42:52

trying to understand the friend request rejected. I

42:55

could sympathize with the fact that maybe you sent one thinking

42:57

that somebody whatever, when we have a

42:59

rejected friend request from her, we have a

43:01

phone call. We have your number written down in

43:04

her journals.

43:05

Is she just trying to go get some dope

43:07

from you?

43:09

Was there any kind of note outside

43:11

my number? No. Any kind of notation,

43:14

any kind of context.

43:17

I remember looking at it and seeing sometimes

43:20

there was certain names of individuals

43:22

in the, in her journal. I'll

43:24

go back and take a look. Doesn't

43:27

change. Obviously that, that she wrote that number down because

43:29

it was important. No, I know. But then

43:31

again, like I said, it was going at

43:34

some point, possibly

43:36

be somebody else's name out beside my number. That

43:39

would help me, you know, cause I

43:41

never did. Generally, I don't find it. It's

43:43

still my shit or I get it back.

43:46

But I said, I'm not even, I can't

43:50

tell you how to present it. That's like it was stolen then. I

43:53

just tell you that it was stolen.

43:56

Like I said, I mean, actually really hung

43:58

out at all. When she lived,

44:01

she lived at Village Manor for a time. Right

44:03

about the end of her staying there. And

44:06

then we lost contact for years. So

44:09

when she was at Village Manor and she

44:11

gets evicted, that's when you

44:14

were hanging out with her? It was around before

44:16

she got evicted. Because

44:18

she still had that black SUV, whatever kind

44:20

of car it was.

44:22

Did you still have that phone then when

44:24

you were hanging out with Ashley? I think so.

44:26

I think so. I think so. I

44:29

think so. If

44:31

you had the phone then when she gets evicted,

44:35

then that would mean that you had the phone on

44:37

November 30th.

44:43

Okay. Well,

44:48

I still don't remember the fact that I

44:50

can't even get the timeline

44:52

straight. I can't explain it to whoever

44:54

much else about it. I mean, it wasn't

44:56

really...

45:00

I don't know. I said I didn't know the girl.

45:02

So... If you didn't know her, why

45:04

would she write the number down? Or if you didn't know her, why

45:06

would she... I don't know. Unless she

45:09

could have got it from somebody else. I

45:11

mean, I was a girl dealer. Was

45:14

it just one phone call?

45:17

One of the longer calls of the day.

45:19

One of the longer calls of the day. Okay,

45:21

well... She

45:24

talked to somebody. I mean, I see when she calls

45:26

me. Yeah. I'm

45:28

trying to wrap my head around this. I mean, I

45:30

wish I knew. I wish

45:32

I knew who it was, but

45:33

it wouldn't be.

45:36

Who were you close with at that time? Because who would have

45:38

access to your cell phone? Lots of

45:40

them. Oh, shit. I was supposed

45:42

to... I mean, a bunch of red-ass just one phone would. I

45:44

was always lonely in hell. That's

45:47

not... That's not how... That's not a good

45:49

idea. I don't know how to help. There's a ton of people

45:51

that use my phone back then.

45:53

A lot of people don't have a phone.

45:56

What did you sell back then, if you don't mind me asking? I

45:58

sold mass, of course. On

46:01

November 30th, when this phone call is made,

46:04

Brittany didn't call you and speak to you

46:06

and talk about going and picking up dope from you.

46:09

No, sure. And

46:12

you don't really have any ideas to who this

46:14

phone call is with on your end?

46:16

No, I don't. I wish I did.

46:18

It's damn sure

46:20

pretty stuck to all

46:22

this.

46:24

And nobody told me that they had spoken to her or

46:26

nothing like that. It wasn't brought

46:28

up to me.

46:30

Somebody asked to borrow my phone and I would generally question

46:33

one of them. The part that's hard

46:35

about that though is that Brittany calls this phone.

46:37

She calls the number. Yeah. I

46:39

get that. I don't know

46:42

whether she called and asked for somebody that was

46:44

with me. That could have possibly

46:46

happened. Who would she call and

46:48

ask for? Fuck if I

46:51

know, but I don't know where all her friends were. Apparently

46:54

her and I were more connected home more

46:57

friends than what I imagined. Yeah. I

46:59

mean that friend request rejected. I mean that happens on the 20 two days

47:01

before she goes missing. And then there's this phone call

47:04

to you the day she goes missing.

47:06

Like we got to find like, here's the

47:08

thing is we can't just chalk it up to, I don't

47:10

know. We got to figure this out. Someone's

47:14

missing. You know what I'm saying? Zach,

47:16

I appreciate it. Like I said,

47:18

if you're not in the case, you're not my guy, man. I appreciate

47:21

your willingness and your cooperation thus far.

47:28

If this is not you on this phone call and

47:30

this is someone stole your phone, then help

47:32

me figure it out who did it. But

47:34

I think we've narrowed it down to where I had my phone

47:37

still. So I won't dispute

47:39

that there's a phone written there.

47:41

You know, you can't dispute that. I

47:44

can't tell you, I don't know who was on the

47:46

other end of it. So I

47:49

mean, asking me to pinpoint

47:51

who was on my phone or who was with me on

47:54

November 30th, five years ago. Have

47:56

you ever looked at your social media account history

47:58

messages? I mean

48:01

I haven't had access to that Facebook and

48:05

how far you wanted to go because I can get you access

48:07

to that Facebook but I'll go as far as you want

48:09

to go with it but

48:12

as far as you want to dig you dig all you want.

48:17

Any legal dealings that don't have

48:19

anything to do with her you keep to

48:21

yourself.

48:25

Where we got to clear me off the list but I don't care

48:27

I'm more willing I know I didn't

48:29

have shit to do with it. I don't have

48:32

any kind of correlation with

48:34

anybody that did. I'm

48:37

gonna be very blunt with it man that wasn't you on

48:39

that phone call of Brittany that night you didn't go with her grandma's

48:41

house?

48:43

Did not. That wasn't you on the phone

48:45

call? No sir.

48:50

I wish my memory was better.

48:52

I really do. I

48:54

wish something would have stuck out more but

48:56

apparently it didn't so all

48:59

I can do is this just give you access

49:01

to everything I can. Question

49:03

number one who is with me? On

49:06

that day. If

49:08

a polygraph was even thrown out on the table would you take it?

49:12

More than willing. More than willing

49:15

anytime. I

49:17

got no qualms about that at all. I

49:20

understand that a couple people have done it for you. Yeah.

49:26

One of them didn't go

49:28

too well. Yeah

49:30

I heard about that.

49:37

My conversation with Zach H clarified

49:40

a couple things but created more questions.

49:43

He reported to me not knowing Brittany.

49:45

He said he never met her but had

49:47

interacted with Jessica. You

49:50

heard me ask Zach H about the phone number that

49:52

showed up on Brittany's outgoing call log on November

49:54

30th 2018. A

49:56

number that have been previously attributed to him

49:59

in search results. and online comments.

50:02

He confirmed this number previously belonged to him

50:04

but hadn't had this number in years. What

50:08

I didn't expect was what happened when I hung

50:10

up with Zach. I'm

50:13

breaking down my interview with Sarah. The

50:15

interview I just had with Zach H. Five

50:19

minutes into our discussion my phone started ringing.

50:22

I look at the screen and my immediate reaction

50:24

was disbelief. The

50:26

number calling me was the number I just

50:29

spoke to Zach H. about. You

50:31

know, his old phone number. The

50:33

same one I see on Brittany's outbound call log is

50:36

now calling me.

50:39

So I answer.

50:43

Hello, this is a call from... Richie

50:47

Oricco. A

50:50

prisoner at the Michigan Department of Corrections.

50:55

Can you tell your name before I look for a

50:57

copy of the copy? When I answer, it's

50:59

a call from the jail. That's a name

51:02

I don't recognize. You're

51:04

curious if Zach H's name would have gotten attached to this

51:07

number. Intriguing. So

51:09

I'll do a follow-up check. Is

51:12

Zach's name? They're gone. It's

51:15

been removed from the listing.

51:19

Not too long after my interview with Zach H, I

51:21

began hearing that he reached out to Ashley after we spoke

51:24

and filled her in. No

51:26

issue. What we spoke about

51:28

is no secret, especially since it

51:31

was just aired for everyone to hear.

51:34

What does cause me to pause is that if this

51:36

story was true and he really didn't

51:38

know Ashley very well, why would he

51:40

reach out to her? How would he

51:42

even know where or how to find her?

52:00

We'll

52:00

search for closure. Tonight, a

52:02

team of scientists hoping to find

52:04

answers for Kristin Smart's family.

52:06

One of the most recent well-known nobody homicide

52:08

cases in the United States is

52:10

that of Kristin Smart, a

52:12

19-year-old California State Polytechnic University

52:15

student. It's believed that she was killed in 1996 during

52:18

an attempted rape, where her body had never

52:20

been found. Paul

52:22

Flores, now 45, was

52:25

accused of being the one to take Kristin's life. The case

52:27

went cold, but

52:30

in 2019, Chris Lambert created

52:32

a podcast about the case called My Own Backyard.

52:36

According to court records, after killing her, Flores

52:39

hid Kristin's body with the help of his father. For

52:42

more than 25 years, in October

52:45

of 2022, Paul Flores was convicted of

52:47

the murder of Kristin Smart and sentenced

52:50

his 25 years to life. At

52:54

San Luis Obispo, police credit landers work

52:56

on the podcast with helping to close

52:58

this case. Corpus

53:01

delecti means body of the crime,

53:03

but it doesn't mean an actual body is necessary

53:05

for prosecution.

53:08

Before an individual can be charged with

53:10

a crime, there needs to be proof that a crime

53:12

took place. Without a body, you

53:15

need to make sure that other evidence, both

53:17

circumstantial and forensic, is overwhelming.

53:20

In cases of homicide, a body or

53:23

remains are considered the most crucial piece of evidence.

53:26

What can a body generally tell investigators? Typically,

53:29

what you'll learn from a body or remains is

53:32

when and how a murder happened. But

53:36

what about those cases where the victim

53:38

is never found? More

53:40

and more, these cases are being prosecuted and

53:43

often proven. Since 1843, more

53:45

than 500 known no-body murder trials have

53:48

been held in the United States. Ted

53:52

DeBias is that nation's

53:54

leading expert on nobody homicide cases. For

53:58

over 12 years, United

54:00

States Attorney in the District of Columbia where

54:02

he prosecuted homicide cases for most of the

54:04

time. In January of 2006, he

54:07

successfully prosecuted the second no-body

54:10

murder case tried in D.C.

54:12

In 2020,

54:13

CAB was selected as General Counsel for the United

54:16

States Capitol Police. The opportunity

54:18

to learn from someone as experienced and knowledgeable

54:20

in this area as he is, is

54:23

priceless.

54:24

The clarity and insights provided by an expert

54:27

can significantly influence our understanding

54:29

of the case,

54:31

the evidence and its implications. Sarah

54:34

and I sat down to discuss this topic with her

54:36

friend, Dan. Well first, thanks for

54:38

having me on. I appreciate it because I really appreciate

54:41

the attention to these cases and to missing

54:43

persons in general. You

54:45

guys get his interview tomorrow,

54:47

next time on Hide and Seek.

54:51

Would you like to show your support for the Hide

54:54

and Seek podcast? Find our

54:56

Instagram and Facebook page by searching

54:58

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54:59

Like and follow to

55:01

hear updates on past seasons as they become

55:03

available and stay up to date on

55:05

season 3. Find our discussion

55:08

group by searching Hide and Seek discussion

55:10

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55:14

The Hide and Seek podcast is hosted,

55:17

directed, edited, and

55:19

produced by James Basinger.

55:23

Written, edited, and produced

55:26

by Sarah Zhou. Engineered,

55:28

mixed, and mastered by

55:31

Newdon's Audio Engineering. Director

55:34

of Photography is Ethan Schatz. Our

55:37

graphic design is created by Jordan

55:39

Robinson. A

55:43

special thanks to all those involved in our

55:45

ground team and to our Patreon supporters.

55:48

Thank you for helping make our investigations

55:50

possible. Thank

55:56

you for listening to Hide and Seek.

56:00

Bye!