0:02

This is a HeadGum Podcast Hi,

0:07

Hi, Hi, Hi, Hi, Hi, Hi,

0:09

Hi & Mighty What's

0:11

up shitheads! Welcome back to another

0:13

episode of Hi & Mighty A

0:15

very special episode of Hi &

0:17

Mighty because it is March, Movie

0:19

Month May May, Movie Month March

0:21

Still haven't sorted out which version of

0:24

the alliteration we're going with But it's

0:26

me, your boy, the number one fuck

0:28

boy Standing 6'2, 305 pounds, I just

0:30

got back from Vegas From

0:35

the south shore of Nassau

0:37

County, Long Island, it's John

0:39

Gabris All you gotta do is trust me,

0:42

Jackson Maine from A Star is Born We

0:44

must replace you, apportion his healthcare That'll get

0:46

you around for a few more weeks, brother

0:48

Also joining me in the Hi & Mighty

0:51

Studios, my newly signed co-host Arthur Gabris Arthur,

0:53

give him a shout out Arthur currently too

0:55

deaf to respond to his name being shouted

0:57

out But he is in the studio with

1:00

me Speaking of in the studio with me,

1:02

joining me for the first time guest This

1:04

is one of those first time long time

1:06

I've been a long time listeners of them

1:09

and they are first time guests of

1:11

me From Cows in the Pod, Cows in

1:13

the Pod, from the podcast Cows in the

1:16

Field It's Justin

1:18

and Laura! That

1:21

was amazing It was so great to

1:23

see this live, something I've listened to

1:26

lots I have a suggestion for replacing

1:29

Jackson Maine Oh! So

1:31

Lenny Cohen from Maestro Laura,

1:33

do you have the thing? Oh, but

1:37

I'll just serve it to you, just do it off of here

1:39

It's raining so you can be a

1:42

fucking nose That's my favorite moment, is when

1:44

he puts the tray above his head He goes, I'll just serve it to

1:46

you I should just

1:48

replace it with Bradley Cooper overacting Like

1:50

whatever role it comes next I'll just

1:52

rock it in Raccoon for a little

1:54

while or whatever Right, or whatever his

1:57

character is and Burnt is just yelling at

1:59

everybody Dr.

2:01

Chef, I believe. Dr. Chef, yes. I

2:04

kind of like burnt. I kind of liked burnt

2:06

as well. I like

2:09

kitchen stuff. I'm a sucker

2:11

for it. I'm a sucker

2:13

for hasty type movies where everyone's

2:15

got a specialty. And then when you

2:17

think about it, that's kind of what a kitchen is in a way

2:19

too. That's why I like X-Men

2:22

and the bear for the

2:24

same reasons. Everyone has their territory or the

2:26

thing they do right. And when they get

2:28

together, it's magic or it's the

2:31

original Chicago beef or whatever the fuck it's called.

2:33

Also, yeah, it's the same thing. It's like the

2:35

heist thing. I also think the other one of

2:37

his that I really liked was Limitless. Oh, Limitless.

2:40

Yeah. So that one, we got

2:43

to do that one on Cows in the Field because it's

2:46

like you could do a back-to-back Limitless and Lucy.

2:48

I was going to say, Lucy. These are like

2:51

people unlocking their brains. Yeah. Lucy.

2:54

What if you used all of it? Lucy is

2:57

bad. Limitless

3:00

is not great either, but it does make – it's

3:02

one of those things where it's like, I

3:05

don't know, I didn't think the movie was that good and

3:07

someone goes, but imagine you had the Limitless Pill and you're

3:09

like, oh, yeah. And then that makes the movie good enough

3:11

that it lets you go. Imagine you

3:13

had the Limitless Pill. Yeah. It's a good premise.

3:16

I mean, it does – it is a cautionary

3:18

tale though because things do not end well for

3:21

the Limitless guy, right? He gets into all kinds

3:23

of – he doesn't – he also like force

3:25

– there's some flash forward flashbacks. Anyway,

3:27

it's been a long time since I've seen

3:30

it, but yeah. It's been too long. It's

3:32

been way too long. Let's stop down. We'll

3:34

watch Limitless and we'll come back and we'll

3:36

argue about it. Oh, look

3:38

at this. Professional segue right there. That's

3:40

right. We suggested arguing about movies. And

3:42

part of the reason I wanted to

3:44

talk to you about this is because

3:47

you talk to a lot of people on your show. We

3:49

– of course, we talk to people on our show about

3:51

movies and things. And we

3:54

very rarely just like argue

3:56

or disagree super explicitly with

3:58

one another on – Especially when

4:00

we have a guest in part because you know this

4:02

person carved out some time in their day to come

4:04

on our show And I don't want to be a

4:07

jerk to them if they're like I really

4:09

love this movie And I'm like ah and you guys

4:11

you guys are also don't want

4:13

to be the thing of like you have

4:15

a guest on now You're having like proxy

4:17

relationship arguments in like reference to like the

4:19

King Arthur or something like that where you're

4:21

like Rolling in with a little

4:23

bit of like just marriage beef, and then you're

4:26

like alright. Well. I'm fucking oh you think that's

4:32

No, I mean our show is a way for

4:34

us to work out issues in our marriage Typically

4:40

and well you know and so and we we

4:42

do well we will disagree with each other when

4:44

you know when it's us But I

4:47

think they're you know the interesting thing for me is okay

4:49

So what the kind of thing that got me thinking about

4:51

this and want to talk to you about it job, so

4:55

We were so we're also uncomfortable with

4:57

arguing like you know like disagreeing arguing

5:00

It's like it's really it it pains

5:02

me to like be in disagreement with

5:04

other people and yet. It's my job

5:07

So I'm gonna say it it's my

5:09

job. I'm a philosophy professor That's what I do

5:11

for a living is like argue with people But

5:14

I find it very uncomfortable to be in a

5:16

direct disagreement with someone I have to do

5:18

it all the time But

5:20

what I'm trying to figure out is like when

5:22

it comes to movies these are things which I

5:25

mean does it does it really? matter if you

5:27

put maestro above I don't know Lucy or

5:29

whatever and And

5:32

who cares right, but yet it's I feel

5:34

the same degree of discomfort when I'm disagreeing

5:36

with with someone about a movie To

5:39

me just recently actually just like

5:41

yesterday with why what the specific

5:43

one of Napoleon you Who

5:46

were you talking about this with well? I

5:48

don't name names so but but you know

5:50

I was I was disagreeing with what level

5:53

of friendship like you know is it like

5:55

a Boss like like yeah like a colleague

5:57

you know like acquaintance and um and And

5:59

I. I'm not going to give the context

6:02

or argument or what was being discreet about.

6:04

Disappoint was just like yeah I felt uncomfortable.

6:06

I cause like okay now we're like you

6:08

know they didn't like it. I kind of

6:10

I'd like it and we were indo and

6:12

there's like a state thing that happens where

6:14

you feel like with somebody like who. I

6:16

didn't like that and he and I don't

6:18

know it's be like you feel like part

6:20

of you has been wounded by that when

6:22

but I think dollars your stumbling upon. By.

6:25

My thesis I think right there are a little

6:27

bit to some of his of rewind a little

6:29

bit and. The. Reason the idea

6:31

of argue about movies came up is

6:34

because I. My. Wife's

6:36

Tiffany and I watch a shit

6:38

ton of movies together which based.

6:40

Anecdotally upon list from listening to by

6:43

guess I'm assuming you guys watch at

6:45

least two movies a month together or

6:47

at least you have a.at minimum. So.

6:50

And have varied taste. For listeners, the

6:52

podcast know that I've like what justifies

6:55

what or like us. I now

6:57

have an idea of what those the

6:59

source of power socially. Ah,

7:02

But. It's. One of those

7:04

things where we don't really argue about likes

7:06

of cove watching movies as a whole nother

7:08

thing with your partner because like you're tired,

7:10

you like. This. Is what I

7:13

wanna do this evening but I also do not want

7:15

either of us to have a bad time. So I

7:17

you're playing and like. But. Arguing.

7:20

About movies. Is this

7:22

thing that. You. Set

7:24

it just me said like I feel like a little

7:26

part of me gets hurt. And. I think

7:28

that's something that's happened in the last. X

7:31

amount of years where we've like

7:33

a tests. Our. Own like

7:35

personality or own set of self

7:37

Worth. To. Our.

7:39

Fan Domes, our our favorite

7:42

directors, our favorite films, our

7:44

favorite artists ah or our

7:46

favorite restaurants or favorite type

7:48

of food. Us. It's. Like all

7:50

this, like. Personal branding that has

7:52

happened that was like not something.

7:55

Like. My dad. Was.

7:57

An avid movie fan and like a

7:59

consumer, The art but like. Got.

8:01

Like. Johnny. I don't have fucking tired

8:04

the argue about if but live at this

8:06

is a blessing idea that you know like

8:08

I gotta work I gotta take put food

8:10

on the table like Spatter arts. And.

8:12

as it's a sign of like privilege

8:14

and you know prick for progress that

8:16

we. Were. Not worried

8:19

about the draft so we can sit

8:21

around and argue about limitless our lives

8:23

are so the so foyer conflict. We're

8:25

not fighting our neighbors for property and

8:27

you know, stealing flights. So because of

8:30

that we get to just have these

8:32

proxy battles over ten it or whatever.

8:34

the I'd I'd but not purposely bring

8:36

up a triggering movie I've produced. Just

8:38

target us. look. Through

8:42

different directions our we're not, we're only talking

8:44

about that inhabitants. Are you that it is.

8:46

As a man I saw Tuesday and either

8:48

a society. That

8:51

is tech that a regular guy. We couldn't

8:53

we couldn't make it so fucking new. Your

8:55

England. Does it didn't come through for a. Big

8:58

him to believe you're a young child at

9:00

all. Be like Daddy Daddy are driving a

9:02

New York. The seats at it again. Not

9:05

be that he tried to providence to see movies. That

9:07

night out with an hour? That little parents are?

9:09

yeah. We've

9:12

gotten. I was going to say that

9:14

I think we've gotten better. Or at you

9:16

and me at yes about young less

9:19

process Yes. About. Our

9:21

our. Fandom maybe? Or like or about

9:23

how I feel how it might feel that

9:25

I'm person. Just. Your yeah I

9:27

do. I agree about that. I did I would

9:30

assume so I think I've I I do you

9:32

remember will be Almost Got divorced over her Us

9:34

and Russia my motto more. Okay,

9:36

three, three or to tell this story, don't. Know

9:41

how to assess, assess the

9:43

herbs, We had a new bar

9:45

and I we were trying to and tired. yeah both

9:47

of us an update. It is never about

9:49

this thing that else was badly because

9:51

I boarded even the heroes tomato and

9:53

weep. Is what happened with you know just

9:56

actually like started to have the slate. Film.

10:00

awakening. Yeah when we had a child. When we

10:02

had a child, Ethan, Justin

10:05

would stay up with our baby and bounce

10:07

him at three in the morning and watch all

10:09

the movies on the Criterion Channel. And then

10:11

I would wake up the next morning because we

10:14

would stagger our night and then Justin would

10:16

tell me about these movies that he saw. And

10:19

I was like having FOMO but also

10:21

totally did not have the bandwidth for

10:23

it but I was like I am

10:25

also intellectual too.

10:28

I want to watch

10:30

these movies too and so I tried to set

10:32

through one and passed out immediately. But then

10:35

I woke up and very rudely said well that

10:37

was kind of boring even though I didn't really

10:39

see it because I fell asleep right away. And

10:41

Justin was like this

10:43

is why I don't watch movies with you. And

10:45

I was like how dare you. Now

10:48

this fight sounds familiar because

10:51

this is where I get

10:53

upset too because I don't care if you don't like

10:55

the thing I like but if like

10:58

Tiffany sits on her phone throughout a

11:00

whole movie that I'm like oh have

11:03

you never seen this. Oh we should watch. I mean

11:05

we've been together for 20 years so for her to

11:07

not have seen a movie I've seen is kind

11:09

of rare at this point but like

11:11

I'm always like wait you've never seen this. Oh fuck.

11:14

And she's like oh I would be down to watch it.

11:16

I'm like all right well I'm watching this for like the

11:18

eighth time. There are a ton of movies I want to

11:20

watch but I'll rewatch this movie because

11:22

I want to vicariously live

11:24

it through you and I want you,

11:27

this person whose opinion matters so much. I want to hear

11:29

what you want to say about it. And I don't even

11:31

care if at the end of the X

11:33

amount of time she doesn't like it. But if

11:35

she doesn't give it the full shake is

11:37

when I get like if I'm like you

11:39

were on your phone for most of the

11:41

beginning and that's so and that's when I

11:43

start to realize I'm watching the movie like

11:45

through her literally where I'm like yeah you

11:48

didn't even laugh at that? You must have not been paying

11:51

attention. Look at how

11:53

funny, I can imagine, and now I've seen

11:55

this movie too many times so I've got

11:57

all this context and I'm like ruining her

11:59

experience. I'm like watching her watch

12:01

the movie and it's putting her in

12:03

a like a Self-aware

12:05

moment in a self-conscious moment. Yeah, and

12:08

there's pressure and then it's also like

12:11

What the fuck has he all worked up about like i'm what

12:13

and i'm like So sometimes I

12:15

have to be like I can't show you this

12:17

unless you are going to fully fucking commit because

12:19

yeah You got to give it a real chance. Yeah,

12:22

that's fair Yeah And I think that's where like we've

12:24

come to is like you are more comfortable with just

12:26

me with with like a girl like I want to

12:28

watch this movie and I can tell you that really

12:30

it does not sound like my jam I'd rather sleep

12:32

and you're gonna let that be Whereas

12:35

like maybe you'd try to argue me argue

12:37

your way into like doing it together and none of

12:39

us are happy That's

12:41

exactly right. I I I definitely

12:44

look you you accurately portrayed our

12:46

disagreement Okay, did I or did

12:48

I do that in that instance

12:50

for sure? And

12:53

and you know, I think yeah giving it a

12:55

fair shake and I totally agree with you gave us that

12:57

I like very often When

13:00

I'm what I want to do when I'm

13:02

showing some of the movie is like vicariously watch it through

13:04

them I also yeah not

13:06

I haven't been thinking about how much pressure that puts

13:09

on people like when I'm like come over and watch

13:11

Tenet and then I'm just like you better love it.

13:13

You love it. Yeah Just

13:18

like I'm like it's crazy that Tiffany's not

13:20

giving this movie a hundred percent attention right

13:22

now It's a little also crazy

13:24

that that bothers me Yeah, I can I

13:26

have so I have to like get in

13:28

I have to get so that's

13:30

the main thing about arguing about movies

13:33

You have to realize Cuz

13:35

like I love I I argue with one of

13:37

my co-hosts Ben Rogers about movies all the time

13:39

on action boys because we have slightly different taste

13:42

I actually like you know But

13:46

defer to his taste like I trust his

13:48

taste more than mine. I'm a little more He's

13:51

a little more discerning. So if he likes something

13:53

I'm like, well, I'll fucking love it But

13:56

I find myself being like the trick

13:58

is to care about

14:01

the other person's opinion, care

14:03

about your opinion, but not

14:05

care that they're different? Yeah. And

14:08

that's very hard. That's hard. That's

14:10

very difficult. Yeah. It's very difficult.

14:13

So I want to offer a diagnosis of

14:15

why this is hard, because I think it's

14:17

more than just we've

14:20

been, we're so caught up in

14:23

today, you know, in like fandom and all that stuff.

14:25

So I think that

14:28

when you

14:30

value something, like when you value a piece

14:33

of art or a movie or something, part

14:36

of the valuing isn't just like liking it

14:39

and just enjoying watching it or whatever. It's

14:42

getting to make it a part

14:45

of your identity. So getting to craft who

14:47

you are as a person who likes this

14:49

kind of thing. So for instance, think about

14:51

like a classic case where this would have

14:53

been like punk versus disco kids or whatever,

14:55

you know, like you're a punk and that's

14:57

part of who you are. It's not just

14:59

that you like punk music, but like it

15:01

affects how you dress, what kind of things

15:03

you want to talk about and so on.

15:06

And I think it's the same with movies and maybe it's

15:08

gotten a little bit more micro in

15:10

that like you're not just like, oh, I like

15:12

action movies. You're like, oh, I like, you

15:15

know, McKeernan or I like whatever. That's

15:18

my guy. So we're more discerning than, you

15:20

know, than maybe we were in the past and that

15:22

probably is the result of the internet. But I think

15:24

it's all like, you know, I think

15:26

it's a natural thing to want to make

15:29

something out of your aesthetic love,

15:32

you know? And I know

15:34

that's why it hurts when somebody disagrees

15:36

because you realize that like, oh, maybe

15:40

I've made a mistake because

15:42

they're not seeing it the way I see it. So maybe

15:44

I've made a mistake and I'm like leading this like

15:47

mistaken or misguided aesthetic life.

15:50

Like maybe my choices are like, you know, gauche rather

15:52

than cool. Well, it's like stepping out and going like,

15:54

how do you like my outfit and someone who's important

15:57

to you going like, I don't know, the shirt doesn't

15:59

really do it for me. and the hat's kind of

16:01

boring. You're like, oh, okay.

16:04

It hurts. Yeah. But

16:06

that's just, that's a split fault

16:08

there because we're the ones wearing

16:11

art as personality. Well,

16:13

I don't- Or everyone, yeah, everyone would call that,

16:16

yeah. I don't think it's a bad thing, though,

16:18

to do that. I think it's a very natural

16:20

and good thing, actually, because I think if you

16:22

were not to value art above and

16:24

beyond just going to the museum and looking at

16:26

it, but actually making it a part of your

16:28

life to a point where it would hurt you

16:31

if somebody says, I hate that. I

16:33

think it's a good thing because

16:35

it means that you're embracing a

16:37

type of aesthetic

16:39

value that you

16:41

wouldn't have otherwise got had you

16:43

just been a kind of surface-level

16:46

appreciator of the art. You

16:50

think about it after. So for me, the movie is

16:52

Tenet. To bring it back to Tenet, when

16:54

I saw, I didn't just enjoy

16:56

Tenet. Tenet was built up

16:58

in my mind for over a year because

17:02

we first saw the trailer in, I think, November 2019, and

17:05

then COVID hits. It had a

17:07

weird gap because of the time in that

17:09

it came out. So it had an even

17:11

more of a runway leading to it coming

17:13

out. Totally, and then it doesn't, I

17:15

didn't go see it in the theaters when it first came out.

17:18

So it's built up even more in my mind. When we see

17:20

it finally on streaming,

17:22

we- It's been a year in the bit. It's been

17:24

a year in the bit. The trailer dropped. This

17:27

is true story. We basically

17:29

built a home theater to watch Tenet.

17:32

I mean, this sounds insane when I say this out loud,

17:34

but it is true. I mean- Do

17:36

you know how, like I actually didn't

17:39

even feel like there was space for me to not

17:41

like Tenet. Like it was over determined that I would

17:43

need to, I joked to my friends, I was like,

17:45

if I don't like Tenet, we're getting into board. I

17:48

have to love it. It's crazy. I do love

17:50

it. There was a lot of pressure. And I felt

17:52

a lot of pressure. I have to, and luckily I do. And

17:55

I do, everybody I do. I

17:58

Felt that same pressure going into Star Wars. Where the force

18:00

awakens for that matter? Maybe I'd like going

18:02

into it feeling like if if this isn't

18:04

good, I'm gonna be really hurts And that's

18:07

that Tells you. Something about yourself. At namely

18:09

tells it tells you that you care a

18:11

lot about this thing and it's not a

18:13

bad thing to care about. Six and and

18:15

things like that, they're weak. You know, they're

18:17

really cool And for me anyway. so it

18:19

was tenants, we saw it's and you know

18:21

as I loved it and it became this

18:23

thing where I was thinking about it all

18:25

the time I was. You know, I was.

18:29

Just rolling the scenes over my mind, we

18:31

ended up watching it with our son. various

18:33

parts of it. Like. Over and over

18:35

Gensler scenes from that movie that I've seen

18:37

hundreds of times. And yeah, I'm an enemy

18:39

that's different from just like a i like

18:41

it, you don't right? right? Yeah.

18:43

That's an arguable like like. That.

18:46

It's affecting you. In: In: I'm in

18:48

I'd. It's. Obviously affecting

18:51

you. Now. The question is.

18:53

Why? Does someone not like it? Yeah

18:55

I like her. How do you prevent

18:58

just so, How do you prevent that

19:00

from activating defensiveness? I know, I know

19:02

and that's and that's hard because you

19:04

just a Swiss If the person's opinion

19:06

you are respect or. Want. To

19:08

ah like you know, Want.

19:11

To get it, gain approval from or something

19:13

like that and that's that shit is. Here's

19:15

my question. Someone. You know, doesn't

19:17

like ten it back and kind of is like

19:19

mad doesn't give back to you. Does.

19:22

That hurt you more or less than

19:24

if you tell. Chris. Nolan.

19:26

I love ten it and he brushes

19:28

you off. I guess that heartbreak I

19:30

give you go to a guy like

19:32

yeah dude, I've been obsessed with you

19:34

movie identify as a Tenet Ababa Why

19:36

this is a hand gesture. Do everything

19:38

to defend his house. Ssl Nice me

19:40

to just an Rc around. you know,

19:42

like that break your heart more. Than.

19:45

Someone who's like appear saying like of shut

19:47

the fuck up about ten it like i

19:49

need a lot of people essays. I thought

19:51

about that at the yes, the second one's

19:54

the second one hurts more because we did

19:56

go through of a two year period where

19:58

where did feel like the. The. The.

20:01

People were just like an okay and any admit it,

20:03

I really did die either so I will. I'm used

20:05

to that in the sense about ten and where people

20:07

are just like out on know this is Chris are

20:09

no and up his own ass or when as your.

20:11

I think you even like mates. It.

20:14

You. Take whatever heard that might be and the new

20:16

reform it into like will. My personality is not

20:18

just that I love tennis there that I loved

20:20

had it so my some and write articles of

20:22

the sad thing at yeah my new personality is

20:24

that I am like a new signing night and

20:26

armor for tenets that. Was at his age

20:28

or another aspect of I think this

20:30

is a natural impulse in a lot

20:32

of. You know why

20:34

guys in their thirties and forties up

20:36

as is to to like things that

20:38

not everyone likes so when not everyone

20:41

likes ten it I was actually kind

20:43

aids into that a kind of bolsters

20:45

your stance a little were like okay

20:47

will walk again I am not an

20:49

academic but then it's like. Defending

20:52

your thesis is where you find. A

20:54

how strong your thesis really is Yes, so

20:57

like your email go and like okay people

20:59

that on the fence about senate ouyang of

21:01

it's can make me like more or it

21:03

will. Now I'm defending tenant now that I

21:05

started by my own fucking hype. Enough like

21:08

me. as I said this. After and

21:10

I'd on Tuesday night. where are you know

21:12

what? A One week ago I saw Ten.

21:14

It. And. I said to myself at the end

21:16

of it I. To. My buddy I'm with

21:18

ago. How does anyone he to

21:20

smooth out of us and that was my

21:23

was thought that oh I fucking love this

21:25

movie was yeah so how could anyone hate

21:27

this movie theater because and that this would

21:29

be what I say from here on out.

21:31

At minimum. If you

21:33

do not pick up on anything in the movie or give

21:35

a shit about any of the characters, It's.

21:38

Eight ice were cool. Shit happens. or

21:40

like eight different things were cool. shit

21:42

happens. and I understand that that's not

21:44

for everyone, but for me that's the

21:46

making of a good. and then you

21:48

add types the ideas of. Friendships.

21:50

being developed in opposite in

21:52

opposition to each other ah

21:55

you add six foot tall

21:57

woman are mocking cars were

21:59

her feet Like you add a

22:01

certain, you add a few things and the

22:03

movie is just built for me. Oh my god. And

22:06

now I've seen Dune 2 and Tenet

22:08

in the same week. I think I've

22:10

established my 2024 personality. Yeah.

22:14

That's exactly right. That is exactly right. Well,

22:17

I wanted to ask about like the personality

22:19

thing. Like you compared it to if somebody

22:21

doesn't like what you wear. That does feel

22:23

extremely personal, like the clothing that you

22:25

choose to express your personality.

22:28

But do you feel like Justin, you

22:30

feel the same way

22:32

about other works, other types of art? Like

22:35

I feel like if somebody was like, eh Metallica, I don't like it. That

22:37

would not affect you in the same

22:39

way as if somebody said something about

22:42

film. Or I mean, cause I studied

22:44

art history. I love Miro. If somebody's

22:46

like, nah, Miro, I would feel really

22:48

nothing about it, I think. Even though

22:50

I love Miro. No, I

22:52

think it's, you pick it. So

22:54

we can't be aesthetic omnivores

22:57

in the sense of like, you don't get to

22:59

be an aesthetic, like you

23:02

can't be aesthetically gung-ho about every first,

23:05

not only type of art, but

23:07

also within the type of art,

23:09

every aspect of it. We

23:13

all are into movies. That's the one we've

23:15

chosen for the most part. I mean, sports

23:17

maybe too and stuff. But those things, it's

23:20

like, and then within movies, you chose

23:22

like action movies. These are the things

23:24

that define you. And for me, it's

23:27

like sort of mind-bending

23:30

movies, I guess. Right. But

23:33

I'm interested, but I do love art. I did

23:35

study it. I did give it years of my

23:37

life. And I don't think that I felt the

23:39

same way about other people's opinion about art. Even

23:41

like if somebody, I remember

23:43

a one-heart historian being like, ugh, can you

23:45

believe she's writing her thesis on Raphael? Like,

23:48

you know, one art historian to another. And

23:50

I was like, oh, that's my least favorite.

23:53

But I wonder, like, do you think there's anything about

23:55

film that also lends itself to being, to feeling more

23:58

like tied to your personal life? to

24:00

your emotions because we

24:02

watch it with people in

24:05

community at certain points in

24:07

our life. So you were thinking that there's

24:09

something I see you're thinking something special about

24:12

film. I'm wondering. It lends itself to this

24:14

beyond besides like you know paintings

24:17

or music. I don't think that's the case. I

24:19

think music is very personal for a lot of

24:21

people it's just not as big for me. It's

24:23

not a communal though. That's actually not

24:25

true. Painting. So the kinds of things that

24:27

who of our generation gets really into paintings.

24:29

Not that many people but before

24:31

there were movies I think

24:33

people got in really into paintings. I

24:35

think it's just a matter of like

24:37

you know demographics and stuff and for

24:40

me I just haven't locked in on

24:42

painting. Well Laura I'll throw out some

24:44

hip hip fire theory here on that.

24:46

Okay. It's I think movies going

24:48

off kind of what Justin said about

24:51

painting. Movies are more populist. Like more

24:54

people like movies and I bet

24:56

you there

24:59

are a lot of people who say I love the

25:01

movies. Like I love movies and whose taste

25:03

you would disagree with on like every step

25:05

of the way. But if

25:07

something like I feel like it's

25:09

populist and then I also think it's an

25:12

American art form too. So

25:14

it adds like it adds this extra layer

25:16

I think for Americans that

25:19

like it's it's like it gets

25:21

a little like sports for us because it's

25:23

an American like and we turn that you

25:25

know no one's ever like man

25:27

they must have had no American moviegoers like

25:29

they must have had an amazing time with

25:31

the process of making this film. Like we're

25:34

always just like this movie fucking rules. It's

25:36

my favorite movie. I'm wearing the fucking hat

25:38

to the bar tonight. You know what I

25:40

mean? There's immediate like accessibility in talking about

25:43

it and then like connecting with it that

25:45

yeah makes us all feel like we're on

25:47

a level playing field for for loving or

25:50

disliking movies and then maybe that feels more

25:52

personal. Yeah that's great. And there seems to

25:54

be no bar to be a movie enjoyer.

25:56

There feels like. Right. You didn't have

25:58

to take a class. So like,

26:00

you know, so this is the other

26:02

aspect of the aesthetic life that we

26:04

build by choosing which things we love.

26:07

One of them is that it's

26:09

expressive, right? So you express something about

26:11

yourself when you're like, I like Tenet

26:13

or I hate Tenet. You're expressing

26:15

to someone else something. But if that

26:18

other person doesn't know Tenet, then it doesn't serve

26:20

any purpose. So movies

26:23

are this thing that because they're so populous and

26:25

stuff, there are these points in space that we

26:27

can orient ourselves around. And

26:30

so we can find our people

26:32

and forge little communities of

26:34

appreciation, you know, little micro communities of appreciation

26:36

with one another about them. And so I

26:38

think that's probably why movies have been that

26:40

thing for a lot of people. But it

26:42

doesn't have to be movies because think about

26:45

punk music or whatever, you know. When

26:47

I was in high school, it was music

26:49

that really defined who

26:52

I was and what music I listened to

26:54

was like the really important thing. One song

26:56

lyrics you put on your away message was

26:58

like kind of like between

27:00

away messages, what you like

27:03

stickers or wrote on your

27:05

binders, and what music you listened

27:07

to. And how you dressed

27:09

was kind of like how you conveyed

27:11

who you were. It was

27:13

the aim away message. Jess, did you – are you too

27:15

old to have name? No, I had aim,

27:17

yeah. What did you – did you put lyrics on there?

27:21

I don't remember. Come on. I

27:23

definitely put movie quotes. I definitely put lyrics.

27:25

I definitely put like cheeky jokes

27:28

of – And then when I

27:30

was, you know, eventually dating, you'd

27:32

put like weird love missives that

27:34

you're like – you're the

27:36

blue cheese to my hot sauce. And like that would

27:38

just be like what you wrote. Do you remember like

27:41

what a go-to, like I'll just

27:43

say, Fiona Apple was

27:45

regularly on my aim? Oh, hell

27:47

yeah. Or Amy Mann.

27:50

Yeah, you and Hal Thomas Anderson. Yeah.

27:53

Putting the aim in Amy Mann there. I like that. I

27:56

was, yeah. Does

27:58

anybody want to – Join

28:01

me and their confessional for what they put on

28:03

their aim. I definitely had I definitely had You

28:06

take your car to work and I'll take my board Surf

28:11

wax America. I Would

28:13

definitely have a bunch of weezer shit on there here

28:15

I'll take you one step further you want to know if

28:18

what kind of nerd slash movie nerd you're dealing

28:20

with my high school senior quote

28:23

was from the matrix

28:28

And it was mouse saying to

28:30

deny our own impulses is to deny the

28:32

very thing that makes us human I

28:35

told a friend that once and they were like what

28:37

the fuck impulses were you concerned about it like? What

28:43

I mean it kind of makes a sense of

28:45

the trajectory in my life that I chose that but

28:47

at the same time I was like what

28:50

but that's the power movies and I wanted

28:52

people to know that I like the matrix

28:54

like I Needed people to know that I

28:56

the matrix was important to me. My

28:58

yearbook quote was also a movie quote was yours

29:02

I didn't have a yearbook quote. Okay,

29:04

I'm sorry. I've got nothing to add.

29:06

What was yours better off dead I

29:09

think it was I want my $2. No, I mean I went that's

29:11

a good one, too I

29:14

think it was like go straight fast and

29:16

you and if something gets in your way

29:18

turn Was my

29:20

cross that's a great. That's cool. Cuz that's

29:22

also like good pithy life advice that work

29:25

Trying to be kind of like I'm

29:27

too cool for school. Yeah, you're kind of having

29:29

your cake and eating it too there a little

29:31

bit I like that. Yeah, but I like that

29:33

game It's just in senior quote was like if

29:35

P then Q It

29:40

was just written in It

29:44

was written yeah, I was like it was like written in

29:46

some sort of yeah like it's got like integrals and stuff

29:49

Yours was the matrix, but I think it's

29:51

funny so it's a deep quote, but it's

29:54

also that quote I think he's responding to

29:56

somebody who's like chastised him for

29:59

making like a sex He

30:01

made the lady in the red dress. The lady in the red

30:03

dress. Yeah. He's

30:06

offering Keanu to have

30:08

sex with her, basically, right? Yeah,

30:11

exactly. That's awesome. Oh

30:13

yeah, I didn't know what the fuck I was

30:15

talking about. Still don't. No, I

30:17

think that's good. You snuck in like a

30:19

sex, basically a sex quote into your yearbook.

30:22

I mean, that's pretty good. That's subversive,

30:24

man. You were

30:26

a punk rock rebel, Jon. Yeah,

30:29

man. Oh yeah. Sippin'

30:32

to the AG1. Dude,

30:38

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finally, which I think is a sign of absolute

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wealth. I shake it

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up, and I'm ready to go. I

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was just in South by Southwest for a week

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there. I had my AG1 with me,

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of course, in my packet form, putting

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that in a bottle of water every

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morning. Shaky, shaky, shaky.

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making unhealthy choices the rest of the day. I'm

31:47

eating barbecue, eating all my meals, mostly from chefs

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that are working out of the back of trucks,

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but if I have AG1 in the morning, I

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my macros. I

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32:53

I. Want to talk about dentists? Feel like

32:55

argue about movies? In

32:57

like what you imagine the seventies were like

32:59

of like artists i smoke and six and

33:01

drinking coffee it's arguing about what two thousand

33:03

about to break was trying to make with

33:05

two thousand and one or whatever. And.

33:07

Then and like Siskel and Ebert kind

33:10

of going back and forth cannabis each

33:12

other's balls. a little bit like that's

33:14

what are my idea of arguing about

33:16

movies is now I feel like you

33:19

could like maybe gets shot for saying

33:21

it in like Sardines the Galaxy headlights

33:23

yeah feels like that The said. The.

33:25

Fever Ib Granted, yes, I'm

33:28

talking about babies. society societal

33:30

wide, but there seems to

33:32

be. Like. The.

33:34

Idea of like a friendly argument doesn't

33:36

seem like week we we. We seem

33:39

incapable of that. We've lost like a

33:41

layer of. Thick. Skinned this or

33:43

site thing like yeah I agree. I think this

33:45

is it is an important point because it's the

33:47

flip side to the thing I've been saying which

33:49

is so the the one side is. We.

33:52

Make these choices we we determine our

33:54

ascetic lives which. Makes. a sort

33:56

of in some sense who we are but the

33:58

flip of that is that it's not a project

34:00

that you want to undertake by

34:03

yourself. It's not like

34:05

we just go into the void and we just

34:07

decide these are the best things for me, I

34:10

want these things. And

34:14

then we come out and we're like, here

34:16

are my things, here's who I am. We're

34:18

somehow creating ourselves with each other, we're doing

34:20

this, we're watching movies together and we're talking

34:23

about them. And what Laura says to

34:25

me changes my mind about the

34:28

movie and vice versa and

34:30

then that becomes a part of who I am.

34:33

I realize, oh, that was a cool way of

34:35

seeing it, this and that. And I think what

34:37

Cisco Niebert and what the 70s film critics and

34:39

stuff were doing was they

34:41

were modeling that kind of disagreement in

34:44

a really productive way. Those

34:46

kinds of disagreements, those are ones where it's collaborative,

34:48

where we're trying to help

34:50

build each other into more interesting

34:52

people, so to speak. What

34:55

we're talking about is maybe what

34:59

I'm looking for is arguing for

35:02

the sake of exploration, whereas

35:04

now I believe it's arguing for the sake

35:06

of winning. Everything is

35:08

down to winning and losing now. Like,

35:11

oh no, you don't like my movie?

35:13

I refuse to lose this conversation. And

35:16

it's like, that's not the case. Let's get

35:18

into it. Let's discuss. Let's get some

35:20

ideas. Maybe you bring up something that I haven't thought

35:22

about with this movie or something like that. The

35:25

tension is that once you reach

35:27

a settled opinion on something, then

35:29

suddenly somebody disagreeing with you

35:31

hurts. Before you

35:33

reach that settled opinion, where you're kind of like,

35:36

I'm leaning towards liking it, I don't really know,

35:38

let me hear what other people say, then that

35:40

doesn't hurt because we're helping each other form our

35:42

opinions. And I think the challenge is to figure

35:45

out how to reach a settled

35:47

opinion, but one which is itself revisable. Because you

35:49

can't live a life where you don't have any

35:51

settled opinions. You got to choose things

35:53

to like. A more fish to be like, yeah, I'm still

35:55

on the fence about that. Like,

35:57

oh yeah, I'll wait and see. Yeah,

36:00

let me talk to a few more people and

36:02

see what that and then I'll make up my

36:04

mind. That would be really weird too. So it's

36:06

this tension of like you simultaneously need to have

36:08

an opinion that's part of who you are is

36:10

having opinions but you don't want to be so

36:12

wedded to it that it's

36:14

painful for you to have other

36:16

people disagree with you because I

36:18

think once, I do think it's

36:20

natural though once you pick a side, there's

36:23

some degree of discomfort and pain associated

36:25

with people disagreeing because you're like, maybe

36:27

I made a mistake. Anyway, I think

36:29

but I just think this is like

36:31

a push-pull, this

36:33

tension is I think the

36:36

essence in a way of

36:38

aesthetic disagreement, like of the kind of disagreement

36:40

or arguing we're talking about. So I think it's

36:42

inevitable. We're not going to escape it. I know

36:45

it's not something we could like therapy will get

36:47

over because I think it's – the way I've

36:49

described it, it's like a dilemma. It's

36:52

like a logical dilemma in a sense.

36:54

It's not a psychological one. And

36:56

I think that's why I think it's so – anyway,

36:58

it's just for me, it's like it's something I've been

37:00

attuned to in the last five

37:02

or six years when I've been really

37:05

getting into watching a lot of movies and stuff

37:07

and then thinking about how my disagreements about movies

37:09

are related to my disagreements in philosophy

37:11

because they are similar in a lot of respects

37:14

and I find disagreements in both dimensions difficult

37:17

but at the same time I think

37:19

we have to keep doing it. It's

37:21

like an inevitable situation because

37:24

if you were to do it, you would be living

37:26

a really shitty impoverished life. Like if

37:28

you didn't have things you liked or cared about

37:30

enough, that would suck. Yeah,

37:34

it's hard for me not like – logically

37:38

I could understand not attaching any of

37:40

my feelings to my art appreciate –

37:43

like preventing my feelings from

37:46

being hurt by someone disagreeing with me. Of

37:48

course, I'm attaching feelings to art constantly. But

37:51

like I'm the type of person too that like

37:53

if I pick the restaurant and we're going to

37:56

it and like I could see that Laura's not

37:58

like into it, I'm like – I

38:00

take it so personally and I

38:03

just don't want that anymore. But

38:06

there's these things where we have to stand

38:09

by our decisions. So it's like,

38:11

well, Gabris wanted to go to fucking

38:13

TGI Fridays. I was like, I didn't want to. That was a

38:16

consensus. It's where we all ended up. Fuck no. I

38:18

don't want to die for this. Tiffany's always like, relax, relax.

38:20

I'm not blaming you. Because if she gets the bad dish

38:22

at the restaurant I picked, I'm like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

38:25

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

38:28

I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm

38:30

sorry. I'm sorry. I know. I

38:33

feel it. I feel it. I mean, I think

38:35

one way around to some extent that is to mitigate how

38:37

much we are in the mode of recommending because

38:39

there's one thing which is like the appreciating mode where

38:42

you're just like, I love this. I want

38:44

you to love it. But I kind

38:46

of know you you're not into this type of thing. So

38:48

I'm actually not going to recommend it to you. But but

38:50

I'm still appreciating it. And I'm kind of okay with you

38:52

not coming on board. And so I

38:54

think like, that's one way

38:56

to kind of try to thread the needle a little

38:59

bit is to just be less in the

39:01

recommending mode because as soon as you recommend something, you're sticking

39:03

your neck up, right? But even liking something

39:05

I think is in a way sticking your neck up because

39:07

it was game issue. We're just

39:09

like, I like this restaurant. And you're not like, I don't

39:11

want to recommend it to you. But they go anyway, and

39:13

they don't like it. It still hurts. But

39:15

it hurts a little bit less because you might have been like, well, I wasn't

39:18

I didn't like tell you to

39:20

go to it. Yeah, right. Right. You

39:22

don't want to win to it. Yeah, I would just pull you up.

39:26

Good. But

39:28

yeah, so I think like, there is this like, there

39:30

are these like layers of like, but of course, I

39:33

think to be really weird to just be like, I

39:35

just like it. And I don't care if anyone else

39:37

doesn't like it. Like, I don't know. I find

39:39

that maybe you can get that out of the suit. Laura, Laura's

39:41

looking at me like, no, I, I

39:44

think I do try to cultivate that as a defense mechanism. And

39:47

I think either the fact that you

39:49

and I disagree about movies is because

39:51

I trust you a lot to be

39:53

able to do that. Because I think

39:55

my mode in, you know, in a

39:57

workplace environment, you know, somebody is like,

39:59

I Love, love actually. I'm

40:02

just like, mm-hmm, good movie. Good

40:04

movie. What's

40:06

that over there? You know, like I just

40:08

don't want to, I don't want

40:10

to yuck anybody's yum and I don't want to

40:13

like have them judge me and I don't want

40:15

to judge them and I'm just like, I don't

40:17

trust that

40:19

this relationship can survive this disagreement.

40:22

Whoa, I like that phrasing.

40:25

I don't trust that this relationship can

40:27

survive this disagreement. And it did happen

40:29

once at the workplace where like I

40:32

said something about not liking the

40:35

notebook and this girl was literally

40:37

like, what the fuck is wrong

40:39

with you? Everybody. She

40:41

said, if you don't like the notebook, you

40:44

have no heart. I

40:47

mean, that was that for me and

40:49

that girl. That's

40:54

fucking crazy. Well, it's funny. This

40:57

is touching on something else I'm like

40:59

learning in therapy and by

41:02

talking to people frequently. The

41:04

idea of being right versus

41:06

just being happy in the moment is

41:09

also like not that saying like

41:11

I have to tell this person the notebook sucked.

41:14

That's not you being needing to be

41:16

right necessarily, but or be true to

41:18

I found myself being like actually

41:22

not like at one time at a party, you

41:24

just say something like actually that movie

41:26

is kind of like cheesy and

41:28

like the you know, this first this

41:30

movie, which is kind of similar, is

41:32

even better. And then you've like

41:35

undone this person or like, you know,

41:37

like a good example is

41:40

like a wife's partner's coworker. You

41:42

have like one interaction with you like actually didn't

41:44

really in there like the

41:47

next three times you see them. They're like,

41:49

well, if it isn't Mr. Fucking water world

41:51

and you're like, Oh my God, I should

41:53

have just said like, yes, the thing you

41:55

love is fine. And

41:58

like you like learn that. And it's

42:00

because your marriage can survive

42:02

it, but this miniature interaction here

42:05

cannot. Like

42:08

Bodega guy, you know what I mean? That

42:11

version of this interaction should only be

42:13

under a minute, 90 seconds tops. They're

42:16

asking me about something. Am I going to

42:18

really unpack my actual opinion on The Winter

42:20

Soldier, or am I just going to go

42:22

like, hell yeah, Captain America's jacked, right? Like,

42:24

thank you, here's my change, get the fuck

42:26

out of here. You learn at some point

42:29

where you're like, it's just not worth the,

42:31

the juice ain't worth the squeeze here. Like

42:33

let me just fucking get out of this.

42:36

I think it takes me a really long time to be able

42:38

to like, to, because I don't have a lot of confidence

42:40

in my own opinions and personality, I guess, but I don't

42:42

know how long it took for me to like be able

42:44

to disagree with you. I don't know, but I have no

42:46

idea. It's a while. I think a couple of years.

42:48

I mean, you watch, Laura has seen me lose my

42:52

mind after watching movies, like Crazy

42:54

Stupid Love, right? That was early

42:56

in our relationship. You watched me

42:59

like, just really like lose it.

43:01

Yeah, you really didn't like it and that's fine,

43:03

but then you followed me around. Like you had

43:06

to just be like, I need to tell you

43:08

all the reasons I did not like this movie.

43:10

I was like, I'm still this

43:12

obnoxious. Danger, Will Robinson, Danger, just

43:15

following around, spitting out information like

43:17

you take. Yeah, I'm like

43:19

brushing my teeth. I'm getting my first bet. And

43:22

Justin's like, here's another thing that sucks. And I'm

43:24

just like, hmm? So

43:27

Laura's clearly the sane one in this relationship.

43:29

And I, but the thing, yeah,

43:32

no, but what I think is interesting about what you're saying

43:35

though is that I think you're right that the productive

43:37

disagreement, the kind of disagreement where

43:39

it's collaborative, like we're building a

43:42

kind of, we're helping each other

43:44

realize our best aesthetic lives, right?

43:47

Is, has to be for, you know,

43:49

founded on a foundation of trust. And

43:51

that's because when you're in that stage of uncertainty, even

43:53

when you're in that stage of like, I kind of

43:55

like this and I want to stake

43:57

my flag in the ground here. It

44:01

it's a vault you you open yourself up

44:03

to vulnerability because you open yourself up to

44:05

criticism Because you if you put your flag

44:07

on the wrong hole and someone's like actually

44:10

that movie sucks But this other one is

44:12

a little bit better than it. You should have put your

44:14

flag over here like it's a They've

44:16

made a mistake right? It's like this vulnerability thing

44:19

there And I think so how

44:21

then the question then is like how in

44:24

the social media age Do you cultivate

44:26

that kind of trust because it's

44:28

interesting that I don't think the internet is totally

44:30

made this Impossible because I

44:32

think actually the internet has

44:35

allowed for people to form Subcommunities

44:37

where there is that trust among

44:39

the members of those sub communities

44:41

think about your your janitors the

44:43

action boys crew And

44:45

the amount of trust like in those

44:47

you know Where your guys

44:49

are having a discussion? Within

44:52

your community and everybody kind of there's

44:54

a common ground there and people can

44:56

maybe disagree quite extensively But all

44:59

know they're on the same page, you know,

45:01

yeah, we're all here in giant stadium wearing

45:03

giants jerseys We can argue

45:05

about who our favorite quarterback was and

45:08

yeah, but we're here under this umbrella

45:10

We're all here as listeners of cows

45:12

in the field so we can disagree

45:14

about it But we have this basic

45:16

thing in common that with this basic

45:19

uh Knowledge pool we're

45:21

pulling from this information pool this entertainment

45:23

pool. We're pulling from the same places

45:26

So clearly we have some stuff in

45:28

common much like, you know, I would

45:30

say listening to the same patreon Podcast

45:33

ranks higher than being married in

45:35

your People

45:42

I really connect with are the other patreon members

45:44

of The phenomenon that's right.

45:46

That's right. Well, but it's true. I think you

45:48

know, that's the good thing They can we you

45:50

know I'm among the many people who shits on

45:52

the internet and all the bad things that it's

45:54

led to and all that But one of the

45:57

good things that's led to is these

46:00

It's allowed people the light the kind of people

46:02

that I didn't know in high school because I

46:04

had a high school of what? A thousand or

46:06

two thousand kids or whatever it was and that

46:09

was a big high school, right? But you

46:11

know within that community how likely is that

46:13

you're gonna find a group of

46:15

people who? Actually all care

46:17

about the same type of things like I

46:19

wanted to play Dungeons and Dragons in high

46:21

school. I Didn't

46:24

know anyone who played Dungeons and Dragons in my

46:26

high school now. It's possible. There were people who

46:28

played I played in middle school, but

46:30

then by the time I got to high school I couldn't

46:32

find anyone to play with in it and it's that sort

46:34

of thing where it's like the if I had had the

46:36

internet I've been I've

46:38

been gaming you know online It just

46:40

would have been great I think if I had the

46:43

internet I would have been getting molested by a guy

46:45

who said he was a dnd dude I Did

46:49

I mean there are always the dark side

46:51

of the internet ever well because what you're

46:53

saying is that like-minded individual but the

46:55

internet peels away the layer of Where

46:59

you don't want to offend the other person

47:01

like in you like sitting across from

47:03

someone you wouldn't go like you dumb C-word

47:06

the tenant rules yeah, but like on a

47:08

message board or in chat or you know

47:10

on a forum or something like that People

47:13

might be a little and then you

47:15

might be more defensive because you're like

47:17

who the fuck is this asshole? So

47:20

there's like the in personality of it

47:22

all but also the kind of wider

47:24

net that gets cat Yeah, you can

47:26

find like-minded individuals, but you can also

47:28

boil down to be like no I

47:30

only like early Michael Mann films you

47:32

fucking pig you know like and it's

47:34

like that's the

47:37

fucking nichification of everything due to

47:40

because the ability that like You

47:44

couldn't find someone to play D&D D&D with

47:46

back in the day now with the internet

47:48

You could be like I play exclusively with

47:50

like non-binary

47:55

philosophy professors around the world that all play

47:57

D&D I have 12 in my group Now

48:00

like yeah, it's like this crazy thing where

48:02

it's like holy shit I you can have

48:04

like any but that might mean that you're

48:06

like the non philosophy D&D people

48:08

are fucking idiot like it can instantly

48:11

become Like in fighting with in a

48:13

niche like you're just so deep in

48:15

there. We're like. I'm a die-hard Nolan

48:17

bro me, too I love the dark

48:19

night. I love tenet. Hey.

48:21

I just immediately start fighting. It's like well then you

48:23

guys were Nolan bros here. Yeah I Know

48:32

Well so gave us I would ask you had there been

48:35

instances where you and Tiffany have disagreed

48:38

about a movie that like

48:40

you know in a kind of intense way or

48:42

in a way that Like you

48:44

know what was your Hiroshima, Mona more. Yeah that

48:48

we have No,

48:50

you know what I mean like if anything

48:52

has ever been an intense fight over something

48:54

that bit It's clearly you know like if

48:56

it's hysterical. It's historical like you know if

48:59

we're if we're blowing up It's from something

49:01

deep between us or in our own past

49:03

or like I Mean

49:06

a lot of what we're working on as a couple

49:08

is not Taking it

49:10

personally like not taking things personally Even

49:13

like because it's so easy just for everything to be

49:15

personal of like oh you want

49:17

to do you want to do chicken wings tonight

49:20

It's like no not really. It's like oh, sorry,

49:22

and it's like What what and then all

49:24

the time like you love my chicken wing

49:28

And also, I'm like really hurt No, I'm like well

49:30

It's just that and like you know

49:32

Tiffany would be like well if it was that important

49:34

to you just tell me and we'll make It happen,

49:36

and I'm like no. It's fine.

49:38

I'm like now. They're like wait. What

49:40

am I upset about? It's clearly way

49:42

more than just us her not

49:45

paying attention to collateral all the way through

49:47

you know like but We've

49:50

never really I've had like blowout

49:52

fights with guy friends That

49:54

like I'm just like okay.

49:57

Well. I will just in

49:59

two weeks casually bring up Dune

50:02

to reference like oh, yeah. Well, it's very

50:04

least we're not talking about Dune because we

50:06

had but like I've never had anything

50:09

I'm not the type of guy that can get

50:12

there. I'm I'm I'm quicker to go like fuck

50:14

it My why do I care this strongly

50:16

about my opinion? You're so yeah, I don't

50:19

have any desire to like We

50:21

talked about this briefly over email when we're choosing a

50:23

topic Like I don't have

50:26

the fucking juice to really stand like

50:28

if someone's like this is why

50:30

ten. It sucks I would just be like well, I

50:32

think I disagree with a few of those I see

50:34

what you're saying there, but that doesn't prioritize that doesn't

50:36

land in my list of priorities of what I'm looking

50:39

for in a movie Yeah, but I couldn't find myself

50:42

getting really fucking into it because at

50:44

some point I go like I'd

50:47

rather be watching another like another movie now

50:49

like there's so many things I'd rather do

50:51

than sit here and let this fight get

50:54

to this level, but that's something

50:56

I'm also like That's

50:58

like an issue in my life

51:00

is how Conflict avoidant I

51:03

am. Yeah, so this is sounding very

51:05

familiar Yeah, I we spent

51:07

years trying to work on arguing because like anytime we'd

51:09

have a disagreement. I'd be like well I'll just I

51:11

guess this is it. I'll pack my bags. It's been

51:14

a great relationship. Justin's like what the fuck We're just

51:16

having a disagreement and I'm like, yeah That's

51:18

the end of that like I just like thought

51:20

like that, you know That's so funny that I

51:23

can understand both of you guys because I'm so

51:25

computer-grained like Justin, but I'm also like So

51:28

like a heart on my sleeve in some

51:30

way where I don't go I'll pack it

51:32

up. It's over like I just like oh You

51:36

didn't like that. That's totally fine. I

51:39

Totally get that you're really entitled to your own

51:41

opinion and then I'm like I could like see

51:43

that person's like are you sulking right now? And

51:46

it's like yeah, I don't know why but I'm

51:48

really hurt for some reason like and I don't

51:50

know and it's because Arguing

51:54

always felt like it was so dramatic

51:56

in my household growing up like everything

51:58

everything was screaming always.

52:01

So I tried to swing the

52:03

other way and actively became

52:05

a clown to make the grownups

52:07

not be mad. And

52:10

I now attach a

52:12

light disagreement about where we should

52:15

put the couch. I attach that

52:17

to abusive parenting. You know

52:19

what I mean? And that's my problem. So

52:21

now if someone's screaming at me about, I

52:24

fucking loved Dune 2. I'm

52:27

like, leave me alone, dad. You know,

52:29

like, everyone's like, this is not what

52:31

this is, but yeah. And mine's

52:33

the opposite. My parents never ever ever argued

52:35

in front of me. And so I

52:37

just didn't have any models for what like productive, normal,

52:41

calm, banal disagreement might look

52:43

like. And so I thought like, well,

52:45

if you argue, then like that's just

52:47

your relationship is doomed. It's not good.

52:50

Right. For a relationship to be working,

52:52

it should be never arguing. Right. Like totally

52:54

perfect. And, you know, like me

52:57

now I'm like, how did that somebody must

52:59

have been disagreeing

53:01

inside a few times? You

53:04

know, I don't know. But

53:06

I just didn't know what that looked like. I

53:08

could say the reason I find

53:11

it very hard to agree to disagree is that I've

53:13

had a number of occasions in my

53:15

life where somebody has convinced me that

53:18

my view was wrong. And

53:20

when that happens, now I can't

53:22

quite I don't totally

53:24

understand what's going on when that does happen,

53:26

but it has happened. There was a very

53:28

prominent occasion occurred on our podcast with the

53:30

film On the Rocks because I

53:33

watched this movie with Laura. This is

53:35

a 2020 Sofia Coppola film. And

53:37

I was like, yeah, the movie kind of was

53:39

fine. And Laura had the very

53:41

profound experience watching it. I think you were

53:43

almost alone in that regard because this movie

53:46

has largely been forgotten. But

53:48

then we had this extensive discussion on

53:51

the podcast because we were having this

53:53

conversation over breakfast and lunch. And

53:56

I was like, oh, my God, you're raising all these interesting

53:58

points that were just. things

54:00

in the movie that I had not

54:02

seen, and I had not seen specifically

54:04

because of certain, like,

54:07

you know, gender structures and

54:09

things that I'm involved in that are very different

54:11

from the ones Laura's involved in. And so I

54:13

was actually, I was in a sense, literally blind

54:16

to certain aspects of that film until Laura was

54:18

able to point them out to me. And

54:20

then I had a greater appreciation in the film. I

54:23

came to appreciate it and enjoy it a lot more.

54:25

And it's that kind of thing where I'm like,

54:27

whenever somebody disagrees, I'm like, but maybe this is

54:30

an on the rocks situation. Okay, you're trying to

54:32

get to the truth. Yeah, it's risky. You're like,

54:35

maybe I am just literally blind to something.

54:37

I mean, this happened to me recently with

54:39

Asteroid City on my own. I

54:41

watched Asteroid City. I didn't really like it. I watched it

54:43

again and I was like, wait a second. I actually really

54:45

love this. And I could see myself

54:47

loving it even more as it goes along. And

54:50

I'm like, what was, how did my

54:52

opinion shift so quickly? Anyway,

54:55

I find this very mysterious, but I'm always worried

54:57

that when people disagree, because

54:59

I'm like, maybe I'm missing something or I'm seeing

55:02

it the wrong way or whatever. Or

55:04

you like them disliking it and you're like, maybe

55:06

I need to watch it again to see if

55:08

I actually really like it. Yeah, exactly. I

55:11

find so funny,

55:13

because I wasn't even thinking of

55:17

someone arguing with me on the

55:19

pro side because I so

55:21

rarely am the person

55:23

who's like, no, that movie sucks. Like

55:26

I'm so infrequently that person,

55:29

in my friend groups and I'm the

55:31

one who's constantly defending.

55:36

I'm always the one who's like, oh, I thought

55:38

it was good. Oh yeah, that didn't bother me

55:40

that much. Oh yeah, no, I

55:42

see that, but that's not something that clocks for

55:45

me as an issue when I'm watching a film.

55:47

Like I'm more on that side. I

55:49

guess I wasn't even thinking of like, I've

55:51

never, like my own brain wouldn't let me

55:53

be in a situation where I'm like, I

55:55

hate that movie, convince me. I guess

55:58

I didn't think about it like that. Funny

56:01

you mentioned, I can't believe I don't

56:03

remember a Sofia Coppola movie that came out

56:05

in the last five years. I just had

56:07

to look that up. Nobody knew. Yeah, on

56:09

the rocks. Yeah, with Coppola heads here too,

56:12

we should have been watching that. Yeah,

56:15

I'm curious. And it is good. It is one

56:17

of these things where I- It doesn't feel like

56:19

her other movie. It feels very flight. And

56:22

that's what I was picking up on, but

56:24

I was picking up mostly on surface stuff.

56:26

And Laura had a much more richer

56:28

experience than the movie in part because it

56:31

spoke a lot to gender division of

56:33

labor that Laura was able to pick up on more than

56:35

me. Anyway. I

56:38

mean, I'm always down for someone who knows

56:40

more about it. I mean,

56:42

that's what the entire premise of High and Mighty is

56:44

more or less. Someone who just knows slightly

56:47

more about something talking to me

56:49

about it. There's nothing

56:52

better in the world for me. My

56:55

dream movie podcast would be like, I

56:57

watch a movie and then I have an expert in like

57:00

not necessarily the movie, but in the field from

57:02

the movie. And I just talked to a fucking

57:05

time, temporal pincer movement

57:07

by- Or a safe cracker. Ah,

57:10

fuck yeah. Yeah,

57:13

I mean, you did just basically

57:15

start making Michael Mann movies, right? Like, isn't

57:17

that what Mann did? Like for Thief, he

57:20

like got actual safe crackers to

57:22

like do the- And

57:24

then he like, I don't know, he trained up the guys so

57:26

that he could do the stuff. Like Dennis

57:28

Farina was like a cop and like

57:31

became an actor because he was a

57:33

Chicago cop. And then like, because he

57:35

was a consultant on some

57:37

fucking Michael Mann stuff back in

57:39

the day. Like Mann is

57:41

so cool. Like he's friends with criminals

57:44

and cops alike. And like, you know

57:46

what I mean? Like he knows like

57:49

the dudes who did like the fucking heist that

57:51

he is based on, like he's like talk

57:53

to them for, you know what I mean?

57:55

Yeah. My dream in life is

57:57

to be in a movie where I have to do, like, oh,

57:59

I just- I want to have to go to

58:01

training for my movie. Like I want, send me,

58:03

I have to do a ride along. I have

58:06

to go to boot camp. I have to learn

58:08

how to halo jump. Like anything like that, I

58:10

just want on the company dime,

58:12

I'll do steroids for Disney movies, whatever.

58:14

I'll do whatever you guys want me

58:16

to do. I just want that fucking,

58:18

I want that world, like that like

58:20

adult learning situation of like, it's time

58:22

to go to movie camp. Like I

58:24

love the idea of that. I

58:27

feel like that could be a thing, like

58:29

escape rooms, but instead it's like

58:31

you go do, you do like,

58:34

you know, an eight hour basic training

58:36

thing where you get to shoot all the

58:39

guns and. I guarantee all that should exist

58:41

because we almost did for someone's bachelor party

58:43

one time, there's like a spy school where

58:46

you can like go and it's like, it's a little

58:48

more, you know, not for

58:50

professionals, but it is like for bachelor, bachelor

58:53

parties, you like do

58:55

a evasive driving class.

58:58

You do like a spy craft class.

59:00

You do like a how to tail someone.

59:02

Like over the course of the day,

59:04

there's like a bunch of different workshops. I

59:07

was like, this sounds fucking radical. In

59:10

2024, like you just, if you have any

59:12

money, just Google like, I want to learn

59:14

blank and you can find, like, especially if

59:16

you live in a major city, like you

59:19

just have access to like so much weird shit.

59:22

Like Los Angeles is the best for that shit. Like

59:24

I literally take Jeet Kune Do, a

59:27

highly specific martial arts in

59:29

a park with 15 other people. Whereas

59:31

like you can't even find 15 people

59:34

in Justin's high school that played D&D. Yeah,

59:36

that's right, you can see. Zero. But

59:39

Jeet Kune Do, but isn't it, so that's Bruce

59:41

Lee's martial art, right? Which he

59:43

created in Los Angeles though, right? Yeah, it

59:45

is like a. He brought,

59:47

it was made here more. Yeah. But

59:51

it is like the idea that you

59:53

can find that. Like I would take a class

59:55

that was like. That's so cool. Did you see

59:57

going around while we're talking, going

59:59

around. Austin Butler there was a

1:00:02

video going around of him on

1:00:04

the gun range doing like reloads

1:00:06

and fires and stuff because they

1:00:08

they're rumored that he's gonna play

1:00:10

young Chris from he's

1:00:12

gonna play the young Val Kilmer role in

1:00:15

heat 2 and they

1:00:18

showed a close-up of it and he looks he's

1:00:20

at the same gun range that Keanu always has

1:00:22

like videos posted from the gun range in Los

1:00:24

Angeles that like all the movie stars go to

1:00:27

and it looks so fucking rad I'm like

1:00:30

I don't like guns at all but I

1:00:32

wish I had to like take like a

1:00:34

pistol class for a movie like it would

1:00:36

just be so he's like unloading

1:00:38

and reloading the pistol so fucking

1:00:40

fast it's so fucking cool oh

1:00:42

my god that

1:00:45

yeah I he would be good he'd be really

1:00:47

good in that in that role he's the kind

1:00:49

of Val Kilmer vibe yeah so but he's got

1:00:51

to get the reload fast enough right because that

1:00:53

that's the famous thing is that they showed people

1:00:56

allegedly they showed the

1:00:58

clip from heat where Val

1:01:00

Kilmer empties a clip and then reloads

1:01:03

it they showed it to Marines and

1:01:05

basic training before wait what yeah allegedly

1:01:07

that seems that's like one of those

1:01:09

like movie legend rumors that

1:01:11

yeah so fast at reloading that they

1:01:13

showed that those clip and it's very

1:01:16

funny to hear that I'm obsessed with

1:01:18

Val Kilmer a big fan but

1:01:21

he did this interview with Chuck Closterman way back

1:01:23

in the day I think it was in Rolling

1:01:26

Stone and he was like peak

1:01:28

Christian scientist at the time and I

1:01:31

wanted to like him so bad and he

1:01:33

was just turning me off like every fucking two

1:01:35

minutes in the interview that's tough and one of

1:01:38

the things he said was being

1:01:40

an actor is actually a richer way

1:01:42

to experience something

1:01:44

than actually experiencing it because you have to

1:01:47

think about it from all these and he

1:01:49

explains I know like the

1:01:51

way he explains it is I know

1:01:53

more about what it's like to be

1:01:55

Jim Morrison than Jim Morrison does oh

1:01:57

no and I was like oh what a writer

1:02:00

off and then later on you hear like he's

1:02:02

actually really good at reloading clips. I'm like, oh,

1:02:04

maybe the guy's good. Maybe he's

1:02:06

onto something. I mean, I

1:02:09

think it's actually a really interesting idea. I mean,

1:02:11

it depends on what he's saying because I mean,

1:02:14

what he's saying is effectively by having

1:02:16

to think explicitly about the performative aspects

1:02:18

of the role, these are things Jim

1:02:20

Morrison never had to think about. He was just Jim

1:02:23

Morrison. He was just living his life. And

1:02:25

Kilmer has to think about all these details

1:02:28

explicitly so that he can channel them into this.

1:02:31

And how to get himself to be there

1:02:33

and what does that mean? He's got to

1:02:35

really know Jim Morrison, quote unquote, inside and

1:02:38

out, allegedly. But that's the kind of shit

1:02:40

that turns like that. I like when like

1:02:42

my heroes are like, I don't

1:02:44

know, Harrison Ford guys who say shit like, I don't

1:02:46

know. They had me up there on a green screen

1:02:48

with a gun. I don't know. Like I

1:02:50

love like actors are like, it's just make believe.

1:02:53

Those are the guys like the

1:02:55

old school actor, the macho guys are like,

1:02:57

I don't do that pretty simple. They're

1:02:59

all Stella Adler trained and shit, but they're also like, oh

1:03:02

yeah, I'm a boxing and the car

1:03:04

mechanic as well. Like I like those

1:03:06

old school dudes who would not be

1:03:08

talking about fucking Alexander technique or whatever.

1:03:11

No, that's right. Yeah, we

1:03:13

watched Witness again recently and Harrison

1:03:17

Ford is just has

1:03:19

this natural charisma, you know?

1:03:22

It's like that guy's a good actor. He's

1:03:25

objectively hot. Wait, which one is which one

1:03:27

is that? Is that the one where the

1:03:29

Amish one? Oh, the Amish one.

1:03:31

Okay. Because there's also the one where he's like,

1:03:35

maybe has killed his wife and is being

1:03:37

defended. I also get those two.

1:03:39

Sorry. No fugitive and presumed innocent.

1:03:41

Dinnison is the one. Oh, yes. I

1:03:43

didn't even realize that they're all circling the

1:03:45

same kind of fucking doing this. Yeah.

1:03:48

And that don't even get started on the Jack Ryan ones

1:03:50

where you're like, which is the one where he goes to

1:03:52

Columbia, which is the one where he goes to Ireland. They're

1:03:54

both like, have both have titles that have nothing, you know,

1:03:58

the Harrison Ford movie that I reached saw

1:04:00

that really turned me on to the kind of acting

1:04:02

he's capable of is the Roman

1:04:05

Polanski, of course we're very pro Roman Polanski on this

1:04:08

one. But Frantic is awesome.

1:04:12

It's like an old-school movie where it's like

1:04:15

it's so basic what's happening in the

1:04:17

movie but he's so fucking

1:04:19

good in it and everything you need from the character

1:04:21

whether you in moments when you need to believe him

1:04:24

in moments when you need to be a little scared

1:04:26

of him in moments when you need to be a

1:04:28

little embarrassed by him he fucking

1:04:30

Ford brings brings that in every

1:04:32

fucking scene it's so it's so

1:04:34

fucking awesome. We need to see

1:04:36

this Laura I don't know why

1:04:38

I haven't seen Frantic but

1:04:40

it is now on the list. It's very

1:04:42

simple like oh this is just a movie

1:04:45

and it is like from in the pantheon

1:04:47

of like what happened to Harrison Ford's wife

1:04:49

like he's constantly in movies about like something

1:04:51

happened to my wife. The

1:04:55

firewall got my wife. That

1:04:57

character regarding

1:05:00

Henry did something to my wife. There's a movie

1:05:02

I actually haven't seen. I should see that. I

1:05:05

haven't seen that one either. I

1:05:07

mean Ford is like... Let's watch it and argue about

1:05:09

it. Let's do it. We

1:05:11

sometimes disagree about it. It's true. Laura

1:05:13

has been little hot and cold on Ford

1:05:16

but was it witness where you were where

1:05:18

you were a little hotter on him? Yeah

1:05:20

I know I think he just

1:05:22

often plays a particular archetype that

1:05:25

I find that like the the

1:05:27

nagging like prickly

1:05:30

guy who's just mean to a woman and

1:05:32

then she finds it hot and then they

1:05:34

make out or he's like too pushy sexually

1:05:36

like I think Han Solo you know listen

1:05:39

there's a lot to say that's like who

1:05:41

is cinematic and Indiana Jones Jesus. Indiana Jones

1:05:43

too is rough. I just think he tends

1:05:45

to play this archetype that I find like

1:05:48

really unappealing. He's

1:05:50

a victim of the time. He's a little

1:05:53

bit of a victim of the time. He was

1:05:56

like an exclusively that era where it's like well

1:05:58

you're a man. Try

1:06:00

to kiss this woman until she comes around to the

1:06:02

idea of kissing you. She's gonna love it. You got

1:06:04

it. To your Harrison Ford.

1:06:06

Yeah. Like, three days in the

1:06:08

Condor pretty much has like the worst version

1:06:10

of that ever. Like, that's Robert Redford like

1:06:12

slaps the woman until they start just dating for

1:06:15

the rest of the movie. Yeah. Yeah.

1:06:18

Yeah. That's, I think, where

1:06:20

Witness is different though because in

1:06:22

Witness, he's much more – I mean, he's

1:06:24

in a vulnerable – He's in charge of that relationship.

1:06:27

Yeah, he's vulnerable because – Yeah. He's

1:06:29

making the decisions for what's gonna move forward.

1:06:31

This is Kelly McGillis. Yeah. Who's

1:06:34

incredible in Witness also. Like, that was something

1:06:36

which – I mean, we had seen it

1:06:38

before and I was like, yeah, this movie's

1:06:40

fine. And we rewatched it. Peter

1:06:42

Weir, I think, 1990 or 89 or something. But

1:06:47

McGillis, I was just like, wait a

1:06:49

second. Where has Kelly

1:06:52

McGillis been in all my life? You know,

1:06:54

like she's so like – She just did like Top

1:06:56

Gun and Witness and disappeared, right? I knew. Well,

1:06:59

not that sort of thing. I know us, but – I know,

1:07:01

but I just think – but really, Witness, it

1:07:03

was – I thought even for me, like, it

1:07:05

was such a different performance from Top Gun too.

1:07:07

Yeah. Anyway, I'm incredible.

1:07:10

But I'm unaware

1:07:12

of it. We should fight about this. We should argue

1:07:14

about it. Yeah. Well, I was gonna

1:07:16

ask you, Justin, because you started off the podcast saying like, I don't

1:07:20

– like it makes me uncomfortable to disagree. Yeah. Does

1:07:22

it make you uncomfortable to disagree with me or do you find it kind

1:07:24

of fun? Because I kind of thought you found it fun. No. I

1:07:27

find it fun. Also, like, what are you trying to do

1:07:29

when we disagree with you? Are you trying to find a

1:07:31

consensus? No. Well, sometimes, yes.

1:07:33

But I feel like – because you're right. When

1:07:36

I got to the bottom of – in our

1:07:38

conversation this last 30 minutes or so was you

1:07:40

saying it's the

1:07:42

like foundation of trust that we have, which

1:07:44

allows us to disagree in a productive way

1:07:46

where I think we're trying to help each

1:07:48

other rather than hurt each other. Yeah. And

1:07:51

that's what I do like about our disagreement. Right. And

1:07:54

I go into them thinking, Laura

1:07:56

can convince me. And

1:07:58

I'm ready for that. And if you

1:08:00

don't, and I can't

1:08:02

convince you, then I'm uncomfortable because then I'm like,

1:08:04

oh no, now we're in the tension again. But

1:08:07

very often we do find some

1:08:09

conciliation. Yeah, well how do

1:08:11

you feel about our perpetual disagreement about Forrest

1:08:14

Gump, for example? Because I don't think, I've

1:08:16

heard all your arguments, I respect them, I

1:08:18

love that you love Forrest Gump. I just

1:08:20

don't. I get it. And I think you

1:08:23

make beautiful arguments for it. But I am

1:08:25

not convinced. And so does that look, is

1:08:27

that? Oh man, I feel like this is an argument

1:08:29

that I could have with myself. I

1:08:32

feel like it's, I feel like Forrest

1:08:34

Gump's interesting choice because you can easily

1:08:37

just, you know what both sides

1:08:39

arguments are. You know what I mean? It's so

1:08:41

funny of like, well why do you think it rules?

1:08:44

Well, why do you think it sucks?

1:08:46

Well, I mean it's like, It's both

1:08:48

there and I think we've just, we

1:08:50

have settled on which side we're gonna

1:08:52

find the most compelling. And

1:08:54

we've, but so do you find

1:08:56

that dissonance, like does that continue to erk

1:08:58

you? I can tell you why. I

1:09:01

can tell you why. Well, I can tell you why. In this case,

1:09:03

I think the reason is my love

1:09:05

of Forrest Gump has almost nothing I

1:09:07

think to do with my justifications for

1:09:09

loving Forrest Gump. The justifications

1:09:11

are all post-talk rationalization. Got it. In

1:09:14

the case of Forrest Gump. And

1:09:16

I recognize that. So my love of it really

1:09:18

stems from the fact that I

1:09:20

saw it at a certain point in my life, it

1:09:23

became an important movie to me and it's a

1:09:25

comfort movie to me. I like, you

1:09:27

know, I just enjoy very

1:09:31

base dimensions of the movie.

1:09:33

Like, you know, it moves me in a really simple

1:09:35

way. But then I'm

1:09:38

happy because I'm a philosopher to come

1:09:40

up with a million post-talk rationalizations about

1:09:42

why Forrest Gump is an argument for

1:09:44

reparations and stuff. And I'm happy to

1:09:46

throw that at you, but I don't

1:09:49

fully like believe that. Right. But

1:09:53

you're still not hurt by the fact that like, that

1:09:56

I don't. Yeah, because I think, because for

1:09:58

me the, it's. Personal and

1:10:00

I think well how it a lot of people feel

1:10:02

about movies But I read watch it as a kid

1:10:04

and it meant something to them and that's like painful

1:10:06

if somebody's like oh Yeah, but

1:10:08

in this case it's because I reckon I

1:10:11

see that you were seeing the same thing

1:10:13

and just having different reactions And so there's nothing more

1:10:16

to be said at that point It's like I just

1:10:18

have this reaction you have that reaction, but but we

1:10:20

are seeing the same thing because we've Got

1:10:23

it. So I'm not times you're like if

1:10:25

we're disagreeing We didn't see the same movies

1:10:27

or I miss the details. Okay,

1:10:29

and why we have to uncover that in this

1:10:31

case There's nothing more to I think that's it.

1:10:33

We just get bedrock. It's like I like Ice

1:10:37

cream and you like wrong place. I

1:10:39

think that's a strong place for an

1:10:41

argument to end on be like, oh,

1:10:43

okay Well, I don't even I

1:10:45

don't agree with what you like about it. Got

1:10:47

it. Okay. Yeah Well, then we're both taking away

1:10:49

different parts of like like that's a

1:10:51

strong place or an argument to it and You

1:10:54

see like oh We're

1:10:56

not gonna find consensus here like

1:10:59

okay. I see that now like and being

1:11:01

able to say As

1:11:04

long as you don't go like I'll never

1:11:06

understand Laura She doesn't like far as gump

1:11:08

like I think like that's the safe place

1:11:10

to be in with movie opinions and movie

1:11:13

arguments Yeah, I think like at the

1:11:15

end of the day some of like we're just

1:11:17

not every human is the same Right.

1:11:20

Some of us are like dispose As

1:11:25

I said off mic philosophers say ridiculous

1:11:27

like obvious and ridiculous things But as

1:11:30

if they're profound truths all the time,

1:11:32

this is part of the job. So

1:11:35

but one of the things that is the dimension

1:11:37

of that is that like You

1:11:40

know, I can live with the fact that you

1:11:42

and I are just different in that regard It's

1:11:45

an a rational difference between us. It's like

1:11:47

to find your terms for a rational It

1:11:49

just means there's nothing that I could say

1:11:51

that would convince you give you any evidence

1:11:54

or reason to convince you because you're just

1:11:56

Your taste buds are different from mine or

1:11:58

whatever, you know, and and that's That's fine.

1:12:00

There's nothing wrong with that. But

1:12:02

what I don't like is when I'm

1:12:04

in a situation where I feel like our taste buds

1:12:07

are aligned, it's just that

1:12:09

we're seeing the thing differently, which means

1:12:12

I'm either seeing it wrong or you're

1:12:14

seeing it wrong. And somebody needs to articulate

1:12:16

better to get that person another plate.

1:12:19

Yeah, exactly. That's the part of it.

1:12:21

Or both of you are seeing it correctly, but you're just

1:12:23

not seeing it from the exact same angle. Yeah.

1:12:26

I'm curious what are you seeing

1:12:28

from your slightly askew POV? What

1:12:32

am I seeing? Let's compare notes

1:12:34

here and take a look. We

1:12:38

do that all the time because we're watching movies,

1:12:41

even though we're so similar and been together for so

1:12:43

long. We're still watching movies from completely

1:12:46

different crazy places where we're like,

1:12:48

I'm like, oh, that's what you thought they

1:12:50

were going for there? It's like, no,

1:12:52

I thought they were going to do this. It's like, okay.

1:12:56

We have to sometimes look

1:12:59

up the filmmaker's intent for

1:13:01

one of us to be proved through, if at

1:13:04

all. Yeah. Well,

1:13:06

and don't do that with a philosopher

1:13:08

in the room because they'll just say,

1:13:10

there's filmmakers and that's just

1:13:12

one more thing. And it's one

1:13:14

thing of many. And

1:13:17

there's so many times that Laura and

1:13:19

I will get in a little

1:13:21

bit of a hurry. I

1:13:24

think you often will bring it up. You'll

1:13:28

be like, well, it doesn't matter

1:13:30

what the author meant or intended. We

1:13:32

all know that's just me. I

1:13:37

was wondering because even when I said that, I

1:13:39

was like, oh, does that really

1:13:41

have any bearing on the end of a discussion

1:13:43

of art? No, what Raphael

1:13:45

was going for was this. It's

1:13:47

like, well, once

1:13:50

it's into

1:13:52

distribution, it's kind of out of Nolan's

1:13:54

hands how people interpret it

1:13:56

as art, what it is going for. I

1:14:00

think it plays, I do think it plays

1:14:02

some role in this sort of how we're

1:14:05

to be guided in how to watch a movie

1:14:07

or whatever, how we were intended to be. But

1:14:10

there are a lot, I think there are a lot of

1:14:12

limitations on that and I think it does not completely

1:14:15

settle it. And that's part of what's kind of

1:14:17

interesting about art, which is, I think makes art

1:14:19

different from language.

1:14:22

So one of the things with language is that

1:14:24

like, for the, it does feel

1:14:26

to me for the most part, what

1:14:29

my intention is to say is what I

1:14:31

said. So if you misinterpret me, if you

1:14:34

got my intentions mixed up and you thought

1:14:36

I said something that I didn't intend

1:14:38

to say or whatever, but I think that's very different in

1:14:41

art where it's something where the

1:14:43

community, as you put it, like it's out of

1:14:45

Nolan's hands now, the community now has it and

1:14:47

they get to mold it and work with it.

1:14:50

And that makes it very different from when I,

1:14:52

you know, when I make a statement or

1:14:55

write something down, like a write like a

1:14:59

contract down or an oath or something where

1:15:01

that feels like it's coming from me and

1:15:03

it's not, you don't get to really jump

1:15:06

in and your interpretation isn't as

1:15:08

valid as mine. Whereas

1:15:10

in movies, it does feel like

1:15:12

the fans interpretations, they're

1:15:15

not equally valid, but they have more weight. And

1:15:17

I think that's really, that's part of what's fun about it. Right.

1:15:20

It's not, it's not like an end all argument to

1:15:22

be like, well, that's not what the filmmaker intended. It

1:15:25

doesn't matter what they intended. We're here

1:15:27

now. So like, it's interesting

1:15:30

that that

1:15:32

is like, you can bring that to a

1:15:34

movie argument, but that isn't necessarily, you know,

1:15:36

a nail in the coffin. Right.

1:15:39

Doesn't necessarily wrap the argument up. Yeah.

1:15:44

Speaking of wrapping up arguments, let's

1:15:48

go to closing statements. This is where we, I

1:15:50

want everyone to say what sucks about Forrest Gump

1:15:52

and what love, no. Oh my God. No,

1:15:55

I do not want to get involved here. I do

1:15:57

not want to be in the middle. But

1:16:01

let's talk a little bit about Cows in the

1:16:03

Field. I always call it Cows in the Pod

1:16:05

because cows pod on

1:16:07

all social platforms. Talk

1:16:10

to us a little bit about your podcast.

1:16:12

It's a movie podcast we talk about. Well,

1:16:14

so ostensibly it's philosophical

1:16:17

themes in popular films. It's the two of

1:16:19

us and a guest. Sometimes

1:16:21

that guest is John Gabris. Other times that guest

1:16:23

is a friend of ours,

1:16:25

like just some random friend of ours,

1:16:27

not someone who's super funny. But

1:16:30

we try to unpack

1:16:32

the film, disagree to some extent.

1:16:35

Sometimes we disagree. But in

1:16:37

each case what we're trying to do is do

1:16:40

that thing where we try to help each

1:16:42

other see the movie from

1:16:45

our perspective, but learn from other

1:16:47

people's perspectives and come to some

1:16:49

kind of shared understanding about it.

1:16:52

And oftentimes that involves unpacking

1:16:55

a certain philosophical idea. Like

1:16:57

I think

1:17:00

for Minority Report we did

1:17:02

the concept of middle knowledge, which is

1:17:04

God's knowledge if there is a God.

1:17:06

And if God did have such knowledge,

1:17:08

big debate in the medieval era of

1:17:10

philosophy about whether God could know what

1:17:13

free creatures would have done in

1:17:15

situations they didn't find themselves. Sometimes

1:17:19

it's that serious. I'm just going

1:17:22

off about how hot Brendan Fraser is and you're

1:17:24

getting squirmin' in your seat because you're uncomfortable. That's

1:17:26

what I bring. We did Brendan Fraser miniseries. The

1:17:32

idea, sometimes I'm going off

1:17:34

about how hot Brendan Fraser is to

1:17:36

be immediately followed up like we did

1:17:38

a Brendan Fraser miniseries. It's very funny.

1:17:40

We started just three episodes of me being

1:17:42

like so hot. And Justin's

1:17:44

like, can we talk about this movie now? He is.

1:17:47

We did. He was a hunk. He still

1:17:49

is. Yeah. We

1:17:51

did have a really good conversation about Encino Man, which is

1:17:53

a movie about male friendship. That's another

1:17:55

thing. So sometimes it's very heady philosophical

1:17:58

concepts and sometimes it's just just like,

1:18:01

you know, relatable things, like

1:18:03

how it's very hard for men

1:18:05

to have friendships and to

1:18:07

be vulnerable with one another. That's the common

1:18:10

recurring thing. Without the capability of wheezing the

1:18:12

juice, like what would guys even be able

1:18:14

to do with each other? Exactly. So

1:18:17

that's Cows in the Field. Yeah, we could find

1:18:19

us on various things. We're at CowsPod on Twitter.

1:18:22

Yeah, I highly recommend the podcast.

1:18:24

I was a long time listener

1:18:26

before I was a guest, so

1:18:28

I'm a big fan. If

1:18:30

I had to sell it to someone and you

1:18:33

guys weren't around, I'd be like, it's

1:18:35

a movie podcast, but they don't talk about what

1:18:37

you think they're gonna talk about when it comes

1:18:39

to the movie. I like

1:18:41

that. And I do, like, I mean that as

1:18:43

a compliment where it's not like, you guys, because

1:18:46

also I listen to all

1:18:49

my peers are comedians. So

1:18:51

it's like, they're gonna find the part and like dig in

1:18:53

on something funny that happened in the movie. Oh yeah, we're

1:18:55

not funny. Well, you're

1:18:57

not purporting to be. That's

1:19:00

not the word I'm looking for there.

1:19:02

You're not saying you are. So no

1:19:04

one's coming to that, be like, this

1:19:06

better be fucking hysterical. But then- Yeah,

1:19:08

sometimes it's not. And then you guys

1:19:11

have like interesting people, interesting guests on,

1:19:13

not fucking goofy over the

1:19:15

top freaks, but people who

1:19:17

are super, you know, you run in

1:19:19

your little fucking nerd circles. So you

1:19:21

get a lot of interesting, smart

1:19:23

people to come through there. And

1:19:25

then also you have like a listener base

1:19:27

made up of like weird cinema

1:19:29

Roddy or whatever. So they show

1:19:32

up all the time too. So I highly recommend

1:19:34

it to people if you haven't listened. Pick a

1:19:36

movie you like and listen to their episode or

1:19:38

pick a person, a third person you

1:19:40

like and listen to that episode. I'm sure you'll,

1:19:42

I'm sure listeners of this pod will enjoy themselves.

1:19:46

Thank you John. Yeah, thank you for having

1:19:48

us, John. Please, this is my long time

1:19:50

fandom finally coming into fruition. I'm

1:19:53

stoked to have you guys here. As for

1:19:55

me, I have a movie podcast too called

1:19:57

Action Boys at actionboys.biz and check out my

1:19:59

travel show. 101 places to party before

1:20:01

you die. It's still on max as of now. Justin

1:20:04

and Laura, the cows, thank

1:20:07

you so much for coming on How You Mighty. I

1:20:09

appreciate it. Thanks, man. Thank you, it was

1:20:11

so fun. Bye, shitheads. All

1:20:14

right, now before we get out of here,

1:20:16

farce gonna fucking sucks, Justin. I'm

1:20:18

in it. I'm in it. I'm in it. I'm

1:20:21

in it. I'm in it. I'm in it. I'm

1:20:23

in it. I'm in it. I'm in it. I'm

1:20:26

in it. I'm in it. I'm in it. I'm in

1:20:28

it. That

1:20:31

was a hit them, podcast. In

1:20:36

a part of the world where there are no rules.

1:20:38

Holy shit. Holy shit, guys, I'm so pie.

1:20:40

I definitely have not watched this since I've

1:20:42

rendered it on VHS in 92. Rangers,

1:20:45

united by the threat of death. We

1:20:47

got all the fucking major players to

1:20:49

gall. Vladimir Putin is a good man.

1:20:51

Arnold, come. Give it to me. I

1:20:54

need you to cream pie me now. Stallone. I'm full

1:20:56

of love in this movie. It's got a lot of

1:20:58

heart. You mess with your regular. Now,

1:21:02

somewhere, somehow, someone's on the page.

1:21:08

I would fucking love for my wife to

1:21:10

see me rip a guy's throat out. This

1:21:13

movie is fucking insane. It's

1:21:15

how you know it's a good movie. You have to

1:21:17

do almost all the work yourself to figure it out.

1:21:19

There's a fantasy component. There's some sword fighting. There's some

1:21:22

lightning. Bam, bam, bam, bam,

1:21:24

bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam, bam,

1:21:26

bam, bam, bam, bam. There's a movie game. You

1:21:29

wake up after a few years and you don't even know you are anymore.

1:21:31

We're going to be making Terminator. We're going to make a really great deal with this.

1:21:33

I don't hate him, but I'm going to ruin it. Yes, I understand. This is now

1:21:35

the 20th ending of the movie. I am your dad. Next

1:21:37

voice, voice, will be voice. Subscribe

1:21:40

here for bonus content and more. Free

1:21:43

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1:21:45

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1:22:00

So, become a patron

1:22:02

at actionboys.biz Do it! Do

1:22:05

it! Come on! Do it now!