0:00

Have you ever messaged a friend about a manager

0:02

who just won't stop texting you after

0:04

hours? Or a coworker who keeps

0:06

posting weirdly suggestive Austin

0:08

Powers' gifts and slack? Well, you

0:10

are not alone. I'm Anne Helen Peterson,

0:13

and on my new podcast work appropriate.

0:15

I set out to find solutions to these oddly

0:17

specific, yet somehow completely universal

0:19

listener questions.

0:21

Whether you work in an office chair or

0:23

a sixth grade classroom, my guess and

0:25

I are here to help. listen to work appropriate

0:27

every Wednesday wherever you get your podcast.

0:30

Hey, it's Erin Ryan. And

0:32

alyssa Mastronaco here.

0:34

And today, we are so excited to share

0:36

with you an incredible new podcast from crooked

0:38

media. It's called Workappropriate, a

0:40

show about all the shit and humor of modern

0:42

day work culture. It's hosted by Anne

0:45

Helen Peterson, an award winning author.

0:47

You know the woman who blew the whistle on burnout

0:49

and the myth of having it all? Yeah. Well, that's

0:51

it. In work appropriate, Anne turns

0:53

her attention to the wild world of work.

0:56

Every episode features Anne in conversation with

0:58

the smartest people she knows as they dish

1:00

out humorous but practical workplace

1:02

advice for a range of listener questions

1:04

like, how do I get my manager to stop texting

1:06

me after hours? To What do I

1:08

do when my company thinks our toxic culture

1:11

can be fixed with taco Tuesdays?

1:13

We have a preview of episode two to share with

1:15

you in which Anne and New York Times writer Jessica

1:17

Gross talk about how to make work less hostile

1:20

to parents, definitely a must listen.

1:22

While you're listening, be sure to subscribe to Crooked

1:24

Media's work appropriate wherever you get your

1:26

podcast. And now here's work

1:28

appropriate.

1:33

Hi, everyone. I'm

1:35

Anne Helen Peterson,

1:35

and this is work appropriate.

1:47

I

1:47

think I have spent the last twenty years

1:49

of my adult life, essentially since

1:51

I graduated from college and became

1:53

a nanny, gradually realizing

1:56

just how hostile workplaces are

1:58

to parents. I

1:59

mean, all of society is pretty

2:01

hostile towards parents. I think parents

2:04

understand this even if they don't necessarily know

2:06

how to articulate it. But where class

2:08

culture in particular

2:10

is hostile and especially towards people who are

2:12

the primary caregivers in their family, which

2:15

is oftentimes mothers. sounds

2:18

like kind of an intense word and I get that,

2:20

but I don't think I have a better word

2:22

to describe the situation because The

2:25

workplace oftentimes assumes that

2:28

we are working bodies

2:29

any needs outside of what

2:31

we

2:32

do every day in the workplace. And

2:36

that's

2:36

complicated no matter your situation, but

2:38

it's extra complicated when

2:40

you have people, small

2:42

people, older people,

2:43

people with special needs and whatever

2:46

way, depending

2:47

on you. And

2:48

so I think it's a lot harder for

2:52

working parents to try to invisibleize

2:54

the needs of those other people. on an

2:56

everyday basis. Whenever

2:59

you talk about the workplace, I also

3:01

get a lot of questions about

3:03

motherhood. even when I'm not explicitly

3:06

asking about parents

3:08

in the workplace. And

3:10

so

3:10

to answer these questions today, I wanted

3:12

to turn to one of the people that I

3:14

always read when I'm trying

3:16

to understand the current situation, when it comes

3:18

to parenthood just generally, but

3:20

also working parents.

3:22

My name is Jessica Gross, I am an opinion

3:24

writer at The New York Times. I read a

3:26

newsletter that focuses on

3:28

parenting and family in the United States.

3:31

I have a book coming out in December on

3:33

December sixth called screaming on

3:35

the inside the unsustainability of

3:37

American motherhood. And I'm

3:39

also a working mom of two

3:41

kids who are now almost

3:44

ten and six. Somehow,

3:46

I have an almost ten year old, which is delightful

3:49

and horrifying. I

3:52

think that you have

3:53

a pretty compelling story

3:55

in in terms of your history as a working

3:57

parent. can you tell the abbreviated

3:59

version of that? Absolutely. So

4:02

even though I always

4:04

prided myself on not being the kind

4:06

of chumps that listens to latitudes from

4:08

Facebook executives. I absolutely

4:12

was taken in by the

4:14

talk around Lee lean in and

4:16

it was before it was even a book. It was

4:18

just a TED Talk. It was

4:20

my late twenties. It was a time where I like

4:22

I was really finally confident in my work

4:25

and I knew where I wanted to go with it. And

4:27

so I had taken a new job. I

4:29

realized I was pregnant on my second day of

4:31

that new job. I proceeded to get

4:33

hypermesis, which is when you

4:35

throw up so much that you lose,

4:37

I think the technical definition is five

4:39

percent of your body weight. So I

4:41

was throwing up minimum five times

4:43

a day, usually more. I could not hold down

4:45

any food. I had also gone

4:47

off antidepressants to conceive, and so I

4:49

was incredibly anxious

4:51

and depressed. And so I was

4:53

trying to do this new job, which I

4:56

sucked at because I just couldn't

4:58

function. I mean, it's like having a horrible stomach

5:00

virus except for weeks at a time.

5:03

And I ended up quitting that job. and

5:05

it was humiliating. And

5:07

I'm still like, it's hard for me to talk about

5:09

now and I have to get over that because I'm probably

5:11

gonna be talking about it a lot more, but

5:13

I still find it totally embarrassing, which

5:16

is, you know, it's not my fault. There's nothing

5:18

I could have done to prevent

5:21

an illness, which is what it is. But

5:23

there was always this sort of idea that

5:25

I think is very deep seated, that

5:28

you're totally responsible in any

5:30

time that you can't be the ideal worker.

5:33

That's somehow your fault. And

5:36

so I quit this job.

5:38

I spent many months just in

5:40

bed. And then

5:42

when my older daughter was

5:44

born and she was super healthy which was great and

5:46

I felt so much better. I mean, that's

5:48

typical with folks who have

5:50

extreme vomiting that

5:52

Once you stop extreme

5:54

vomiting, you feel better. Yeah. Well, when the baby

5:56

is born, you feel fine. I was like, oh my god.

5:58

I feel human again. Right.

6:00

And so, you know, I was

6:03

freelance for a couple years. but

6:05

I just couldn't make enough money to

6:07

make that work when we wanted to have a second

6:09

kid. So I went back to a staff job and then

6:11

so I have been balancing typical,

6:15

nine to five or sometimes, you know, eight

6:17

to six job with

6:20

one and then now two kids. and

6:23

also through a pandemic, which, you know, a

6:25

real curveball that was a

6:27

roughy for everybody.

6:30

Yeah. And you wrote a book. Like, they figured

6:32

that out how to how to do that. I figured out how

6:34

to do that. Yeah. And

6:36

again, I wanna make it clear, like, that

6:38

sort of the origin story or the beginning

6:40

of my motherhood. I mean, it

6:42

was a complete act of privilege

6:44

that I could quit my job. because

6:47

we were on my husband's health insurance. And

6:49

I really don't know what I would have done.

6:51

Had I been a single parent or

6:53

had My spouse had

6:56

been the one who was freelance and

6:58

we had health insurance through me.

7:01

Yeah. I don't know what I would have done. I guess,

7:03

suffered through it,

7:04

gotten fired. I don't know. Yeah.

7:07

And you know, sometimes we're like, you know, this is

7:09

the thing that people always say about parenting

7:12

just generally is like, you make

7:14

it work. And in our society, there

7:16

are ways that people would

7:17

make it work like you would go on COBRA,

7:20

like you would

7:20

go on maybe short term disability

7:23

somehow. You know, like, there's all these different things.

7:25

None of them are ideal though. None of them are,

7:27

like, the way that you

7:29

if you could have said, how do I want

7:31

my first experience as a parenthood to

7:33

go. Would

7:34

they be like that? You know?

7:36

No. And I think, like, what is underlying

7:38

and under discussed is, like, let's

7:41

say all of that had happened and we had to go on

7:43

COBRA and we figured it out, the sort of cumulative

7:45

stress of those situations

7:48

and the fear that it's all gonna fall

7:50

apart. with

7:52

any false step is

7:54

it weighs on you year after

7:56

year. And I think that

7:59

sort of stressor

7:59

it can't

8:00

even be quantified. I don't know how you would be

8:02

getting to quantify it, but it's something

8:04

that whenever I talk to parents

8:06

who don't live in the United States,

8:09

and try to explain some of the

8:12

pretzels that we put ourselves in

8:14

to try to make it work. They're just

8:16

both confused, mystified,

8:18

and horrified. Like, they don't even understand --

8:21

Yeah. -- the systems that

8:23

we have to navigate because so foreign

8:25

to them. Well, and this is a good segue to

8:27

something

8:27

else that I wanted to ask you about just before

8:30

we get into the questions, which when I

8:32

talk about the hostility towards

8:34

parents generally, I think

8:36

some of it is

8:38

that

8:39

ongoing

8:41

aggregate

8:42

precarity and anxiety. Right?

8:45

So sometimes people say, like, it's so

8:47

much easier to be a parent today because

8:50

you

8:50

know, we have vaccines, we

8:52

have all

8:53

sorts of things that make it so

8:54

that, like, child mortality rates are

8:56

not what they were a hundred years ago.

8:59

But then

8:59

also, there

9:00

are all of these other contemporary problems

9:02

that, like, as a developed

9:04

nation, we should not have. That's like something

9:06

that we think I often think about, like,

9:08

one of the, you know, richest nations in the world,

9:11

like, why do we have these problems every

9:13

day? So

9:13

maybe, like, my question is, like, where does this

9:15

hostility come from? What's the root of it,

9:17

you think? I I agree with you

9:19

that it's a sense of scarcity and

9:21

it's a sense of

9:24

I'm working so hard that

9:26

I can't spare any

9:28

of what I'm getting because there's not

9:30

enough for me. So how how

9:33

can you try to take away

9:35

what I've earned for your family.

9:37

I think that's sort of the root of it.

9:39

And I think, you know, especially for our

9:41

generation, which you write about so

9:44

beautifully and wonderfully. Like,

9:46

things are less secure

9:48

by basically every metric

9:50

than they

9:50

were for many of our parents. I

9:52

mean, just sort of generationally speaking, not in

9:54

terms of individual

9:56

cases, but finances

9:58

are or more precarious. is. It's harder to buy a

10:00

house. There's more debt. Like, all of these things

10:02

are just facts of the

10:04

matter. And so it makes

10:06

sense that it just sort of feels

10:09

like we're all fighting for scraps. And there's

10:11

not a lot of grace to go around,

10:13

which is unfortunate.

10:15

Yeah.

10:15

In the workplace, in our communities,

10:18

the way that we talk about each other in the media,

10:20

on social media, all of these

10:22

things. And, like, some of the things that I think

10:24

are

10:25

huge stressors for lower income

10:27

parents would be solved by more

10:29

money. Right? Just like -- Mhmm. -- that

10:31

basic social safety net

10:33

stuff. And then some of the stuff

10:35

for middle class and more well

10:37

off parents would be solved by more

10:39

community. and

10:40

more reliance on each other. Right? And --

10:42

Yeah. -- also those expansion

10:44

of those safety net things like affordable

10:47

and accessible child care benefits

10:49

up

10:49

and down the the entire

10:51

income scale. Mhmm. But sometimes I

10:53

think everyone is having a really hard

10:55

time and it's a hard time in different

10:57

ways. Right? Yep. I think

10:59

that is exactly how it

11:01

is.

11:09

So

11:09

our first question is going

11:11

to be about explicit

11:13

norms and expectations

11:15

in the workplace that make it

11:17

really hard to parent, and

11:20

specifically business trips. So let's

11:22

hear from Maureen.

11:23

I work in civil engineering as a support

11:26

staffer. I had infrequent

11:28

business travel before COVID. Now

11:30

I have a kid and business travel is

11:32

happening again, and my new department was

11:34

restructured. My line management

11:36

scheduled a three day training in Boston,

11:38

and I'm in New Jersey. I recently

11:40

told everyone to start booking accommodations.

11:43

My husband

11:43

is a restaurant manager and now

11:45

feels impossible for me to travel for

11:48

work. Who will watch my kid after

11:50

day care? Since it's not in my

11:52

normal job description, how do I

11:54

handle infrequent requests like this?

11:56

Does no one else have children in my

11:58

department? How do people manage?

11:59

So what I'm

12:02

hearing here are two different questions. And the

12:04

first is, like, the very practical,

12:06

very immediate

12:08

need of what am I

12:10

gonna do? Do I tell my

12:12

boss that I can't do this and

12:14

does not make me seem like a less

12:16

competent worker or less reliable in some

12:18

way and

12:19

also like how how in the world

12:22

could I structure this? And then

12:23

the second question is, this

12:26

overarching question, which is why

12:28

are workplaces expecting

12:30

this sort of travel in the first place?

12:32

Like, what does that indicate about our

12:35

workplace norms in general. So I

12:37

wanna tackle that second question

12:39

first. Just why do companies

12:41

have these norms about? you should just

12:43

be able to travel all the

12:44

time. I think because they have not

12:46

thought it through, and usually

12:48

the leaders of the company

12:50

have not been primary caretakers

12:52

of children at any point in their

12:54

career. And if they

12:57

were, they were high up enough

12:59

to be able

13:01

to pay out the wazoo

13:03

or they had live in grandparents.

13:05

Like, there was always something that

13:08

allowed them to work at any

13:10

time. I find it productive

13:12

in work situations to

13:15

approach things like this as if they are

13:17

just neglectful and not

13:19

malicious. Because in my

13:21

own personal life whenever stuff like this

13:23

has happened and I just assume malice,

13:25

then I just get super angry and that's not

13:27

good for me. So it's

13:29

Right. Start with, like, the intentions

13:31

are neutral. They just didn't

13:33

think it through. And that,

13:35

historically, people who have run companies have

13:37

not been primary caretakers for children so

13:39

they don't even think about it.

13:41

Right. And if it is brought to their attention

13:44

in a way that it did explain

13:46

that it's better for the business. It's better for you to do your

13:48

job. If you're

13:50

allowed some more flexibility on sort

13:52

of these issues, that's always sort of the

13:54

the place start is that they just haven't thought it

13:56

through. You know, I was thinking about

13:58

this. A friend of mine

14:00

is doing some political reporting right

14:02

now. And She's like, I can always

14:04

tell if the comms

14:06

team are younger and don't have kids

14:08

yet because they just

14:10

think that, like, you can email

14:12

someone in the morning or text them in the morning, and

14:14

then they can come to an event no

14:16

matter what, like, that afternoon. Stop

14:18

that meeting. Especially, like, across

14:20

the state. And my

14:22

friends like, I have to get

14:24

childcare and also dog care. But,

14:26

like, there are plans that need to be made

14:28

for my life.

14:30

that if you are a younger person, maybe

14:32

this isn't always true. But

14:35

oftentimes, you have not yet

14:37

become empathetic towards those needs.

14:39

And all

14:39

you need though is one person saying really

14:42

kindly, like, it would be really helpful for

14:44

me if you give me more than one day's notice.

14:46

Right? Making that explicit.

14:48

And I think that, like, yes, in an

14:50

ideal world that everyone would be, like, thinking

14:53

about everyone else's scenarios

14:55

and that comes to childcare and

14:57

elder care and do you

14:59

have a child

15:00

who needs more like a special needs child

15:02

or a high needs child or a medically

15:04

complicated child? Like, there's so many different

15:06

things situations that

15:09

people could

15:11

need more

15:13

notice about, but

15:16

that's not our

15:16

our world. And I think sometimes we

15:18

still have to do that educating ourselves

15:20

even though it feels really annoying. Yeah.

15:23

Absolutely. And she did have

15:25

one question in there that I thought was

15:27

very insightful and does

15:29

no one else who works here have

15:32

kids? And I think one of the most

15:34

important things that you can

15:36

do is find out who else does have

15:38

kids. And they can

15:40

be not only your allies,

15:42

just like, to vent,

15:44

but also in terms of

15:46

asking for things as a

15:48

group, so it doesn't seem like a

15:50

special privilege. I mean, in the best case

15:52

scenario, you have a union, like I

15:54

do, which like I've This is the first time I've

15:56

ever been a union. Love it.

15:58

so happy. Yeah. Feel so much

15:59

safer. But most

16:01

unfortunately, in this country, that is

16:04

unusual.

16:04

So but, you know, if you

16:06

can point things out

16:08

with a group and show that it

16:11

is beneficial to several

16:13

employees. That is always incredibly helpful.

16:15

And actually, Earlier in my career, one

16:17

of the mistakes that I made was

16:20

that job that I talked about that I first

16:22

took when I got pregnant,

16:24

I realized after the fact

16:26

that there were no mothers in

16:29

basically any positions of power at

16:31

that time. And so that's just

16:33

a little bit of advice in terms if you're looking

16:35

for a new job. Obviously, you can't make that

16:37

change if you're in a

16:38

current job or that's but, like,

16:40

do a

16:40

little low key poking around,

16:43

and if there are no parents

16:45

who are very involved in

16:48

upper echelon's, I would side eye

16:50

that. Don't

16:50

necessarily say, like, don't take that job, but,

16:53

like, you know -- Right. -- Ask around. Yep.

16:55

Yeah. No. This is one of the things that I

16:57

always

16:57

think about in terms of, like, attracting

17:00

and retaining a truly

17:02

diverse workplace. And I mean, diversity in terms

17:04

of race and diversity in terms of

17:06

gender, diversity in terms of

17:07

parents and non parents is that you have to

17:10

have people operating from

17:12

all of those different perspectives, not

17:14

just

17:14

at your company,

17:17

but in decision making places within that

17:18

company. Exactly. So

17:20

we we kind of address some of the the

17:23

more practical things that this

17:25

person could do to look

17:28

for other parents. But like, what

17:30

what do you think she should do? Like,

17:32

in the immediate term. the case, what's the way she

17:34

could approach? I mean, you know, I think

17:36

hopefully she has a

17:38

good relationship with her boss. Like, that's -- Yeah.

17:41

-- that's ideally, she has a

17:43

good enough relationship with her boss that she can

17:45

just level with them and be like,

17:47

look, I really want to

17:49

attend this meeting,

17:51

it seems really important.

17:53

I just cannot make it work

17:55

with my child and

17:57

invite them into the like,

17:59

say, like, I have thought of x, y, and

18:02

z ways to solve this problem. I

18:04

cannot solve this problem on my

18:06

own. I would like to is is there a way the company

18:08

can help me solve this problem?

18:10

So treat it as, like, if this is

18:12

an essential part of her job, they need to

18:14

help her solve it. Yeah. Because

18:16

this is, as she

18:17

has said, above her job

18:20

description, not, you know. So there

18:22

may be ways that, like, can she

18:24

bring the kid with her? Like, which

18:26

also, again, is terrible. I don't ever wanna

18:28

give my bring my children on a business trip. It is

18:30

distracting and terrible. I don't, like,

18:32

recommend it, but, like, this is not

18:35

problem where there is gonna be compromised. It's like

18:37

there's a kid who needs to be taken care of.

18:39

When I talk to companies that are trying to

18:41

figure out how do we go

18:43

to hybrid situations or how do we go to

18:45

almost fully remote situations, but

18:48

then also ask that our

18:50

employees come back to the office.

18:53

every

18:53

quarter, right, for

18:55

team building, you know, all of the different things, like

18:57

the the cultural checking

19:00

in. And

19:01

one thing I say that is that unless you

19:03

want to make your company

19:05

a place where you can't have

19:07

any single parents, a

19:09

place where you can't have or that you

19:11

are really discouraging people

19:14

who are primary caregivers from from being

19:16

part of that

19:16

organization, you have to think about

19:19

okay, when are we going to schedule these? How

19:21

are we either going to help

19:23

supplement, childcare,

19:25

or create solutions where

19:27

there will be childcare on-site

19:29

depending on, like, the amount of travel that's

19:31

necessary for someone to get there. So, like,

19:34

I have heard of people who, like, they do

19:36

these sorts of mass,

19:39

you know, rescaling, retraining things.

19:41

Like, they, you know, it's had

19:43

a a Marriott in

19:45

Dallas or whatever, and people are

19:47

coming in from a couple hours

19:49

away. And they

19:49

do. They say, like, We're do this in

19:51

the summer because that's a time when it's easier

19:53

for kids to not be in

19:56

school. Right? And if you wanna bring your kid

19:58

with you on this on

20:00

this trip, then there will be,

20:02

you

20:02

know, we will have skilled caregivers

20:04

there to to offer offer care

20:06

while you do this. And

20:08

if you can't do that, then in

20:09

which is what I think a lot of

20:12

companies say, like, oh, that's too big of an

20:13

expense, then you are losing those

20:16

employees. Yep. you were saying, we

20:18

want we want our workforce to

20:19

look like what it looked like in nineteen fifty.

20:22

Yep. I I

20:22

think this is conversation that she needs

20:24

to have sooner rather than later with --

20:27

Mhmm. -- with management just because it's like, if this is

20:29

gonna keep coming up, this is

20:30

not a role for her. Like, this -- Yeah. -- I I mean,

20:32

I that's hard to say because, like, obviously, you

20:34

can't just, like, leave your job in a staff, find a

20:36

new job. But, like, you know, this wasn't the

20:39

responsibility before. it

20:41

doesn't work with her life. Yep. And

20:44

that's got that's something that's gonna be figured

20:46

out.

20:52

Our

20:52

second question is from Sarah who

20:54

got what she needed from her employer,

20:56

but only at the eleventh hour.

20:58

I'm

20:59

a mom with two kids under four. I have a

21:01

hybrid work schedule, but I had to put my

21:03

two week's notice in to get it. When we came

21:05

back to the office full time post

21:08

COVID, message for anyone who wanted to keep working from home

21:10

was, if you don't like coming

21:11

into the office, you can go work

21:13

somewhere else. So that's

21:14

exactly what I did. After

21:17

I put in my notice, my boss and their

21:19

boss sat me down, told me

21:21

they

21:21

couldn't afford to lose me, and they were confident I

21:23

had demonstrated during COVID

21:26

that

21:26

I could successfully do my job from home. Flexibility

21:28

was

21:28

my sole reason for leaving. So once

21:30

I

21:30

had it, I stayed. I

21:33

work from home pretty seamlessly and I'm now able

21:35

to manage my kids' schedules and my

21:37

workload so much easier than before.

21:40

But I

21:40

don't understand this. One, why did

21:42

it come

21:42

to me literally quitting my job for

21:44

my employer to give me the flexibility that

21:47

I needed? And

21:48

two, why does

21:49

it still feel like if I need to quote unquote

21:51

take time away from work for my kids

21:53

that I'm a less than an employee.

21:56

There seems to be a standard belief that if you're

21:58

not in the office, you're not

22:00

working, or that you need to

22:02

be at your computer during a specific set of

22:04

hours to get your work done. I don't

22:06

understand why it's still frowned upon to

22:08

schedule a two PM appointment or to

22:10

log off at four if all pressing

22:12

matters are handled and my job is

22:14

getting done. Even with

22:14

the flexibility to work from home, I still feel tied

22:16

to the eight to five business day. So

22:18

we actually

22:19

got several questions like this and

22:21

they all boiled down to something

22:23

that is basically

22:24

like, why can't I be in charge of

22:26

when I do my job and when I take

22:28

care of my kids because I'm an

22:29

adult and really good at my

22:32

job. and configure this stuff out.

22:35

And I think

22:36

Sarah's situation is the kind of thing that

22:38

businesses should be doing for their employees, and

22:40

this is the sort of

22:41

thing that I talk about advocating for in

22:43

terms of healthy flexing blah

22:45

blah blah. But very much

22:47

the reality that many companies

22:50

are not adopting these policies

22:52

and are adopting the

22:54

come back into the office. And if you don't like it,

22:56

you can quit.

22:57

So I

22:58

guess my question to you, Jess,

23:01

is why is it so

23:01

hard for these companies to

23:05

get onboard

23:05

with what someone like Sarah's asking

23:08

for

23:08

without her threading, quitting.

23:11

I mean, a lot of it is

23:13

Most of these folks

23:13

are not internet natives. None of

23:16

these people have made friends over

23:18

AIM. Like, they their idea

23:20

of creating a culture and

23:22

create -- Yep. -- relationships is

23:24

just pre virtual. They don't. And

23:26

I mean, there's just a complete lack of understanding

23:28

and the and a lack of ability to

23:31

look outside themselves and think, oh, maybe other

23:33

people can work efficiently and well

23:35

in a way that I couldn't work

23:37

efficiently and well. So they think,

23:39

I couldn't do this. So clearly, my employees can't. And

23:42

some of it certainly is a control

23:44

thing. They think if they can't see you,

23:47

they have bad ideas about what you

23:49

might be doing with your time despite

23:51

clear evidence that people have

23:53

been highly productive. working from home. I mean

23:55

-- Yeah. -- you know the the that research

23:58

as well as anybody. There isn't there was

23:59

no dip in productivity. among

24:02

folks who, you know, went fully remote

24:04

during the pandemic. I mean, in fact, people work

24:06

more in longer hours, especially

24:08

when you don't have that commute.

24:10

there's more I mean, most people are commuting

24:12

at least, what is it, like, half an hour?

24:15

You're wasting an hour of your day to --

24:17

Yeah. -- sit in an office. and

24:19

for many folks, not just parents,

24:21

that makes no sense

24:24

for their for their quality of life

24:26

and for, you know, having any so

24:28

I think It's inertia. It's

24:30

an idea. It's the the people in charge have

24:32

never done it, so they don't think it's

24:34

possible. And norms

24:36

and all sorts of spheres

24:38

of life are incredibly hard to change. I

24:40

mean, this week, I was working on a

24:42

newsletter about why the school year

24:44

is the way it is. Yeah.

24:47

And a lot of it is just because

24:49

we set in place the idea

24:51

that summer, there is no school during

24:54

summer. and

24:54

that's it. And that is in people's heads. And

24:57

then some very powerful industries, the

24:59

tourism industry and the amusement park lobby

25:01

in some states have

25:04

pushed for laws that

25:07

make sure that school does not start until

25:09

the end of August or early September because they

25:11

are worried about losing money. it's

25:13

norms, it's money, it's all of these different things. So I

25:15

think that's why I I

25:18

am optimistic actually that

25:20

this is something that really is

25:22

gonna change. in the next ten to

25:24

twenty years? I am

25:24

too. There are a handful of

25:27

industries that

25:27

have just been very, very

25:30

slow to

25:31

want to do any sort of change

25:33

in these sorts of realms. Right? A lot

25:35

of them are companies that

25:38

are headquartered in the center of the country and

25:40

that I'm not making a judgment call

25:42

there. I'm just talking about what the norms that those

25:44

organizations are and

25:47

I

25:47

do think that even they will get on board because they're

25:49

gonna lose talent. They're gonna lose people

25:52

like

25:52

Sarah -- Mhmm. -- who say,

25:55

what

25:55

I do, I'm very good at

25:56

my job, but one of my skills are transferable.

25:59

And I'm gonna go work

25:59

for some place that does have flex. And I, you

26:02

know, the stats bear this

26:04

out. Flex's future forum is one

26:06

of the places where I go for this sort

26:07

of data and the stats on, like, the

26:09

parents who would look for a new job

26:11

if Flex was totally

26:12

taken from them.

26:14

it's so high. Mhmm. And even

26:17

even with the the economic

26:19

downturn and the tightening of the labor market,

26:21

like, people

26:21

just do not want to go back. and

26:23

I think some of that has to do with how

26:26

long

26:26

people had the privilege

26:27

of flex. Like, if this had been four

26:30

weeks, even if it had been, like,

26:32

four four months.

26:33

But once something becomes

26:35

as normalized as it

26:37

has, you can't take

26:38

that away and say, like, oh, yeah. Well, you

26:40

know, that was a that was

26:41

a gift that we gave you almost because

26:43

of

26:43

that, like, a parent especially people

26:46

I've talked to have said, like, I'm the the

26:48

franticness with which we got out of the house

26:50

every morning. Right? Like, to to get

26:52

everyone to leave, to do, like, drop off

26:55

two places and

26:55

then for the parent to get on the subway

26:58

and go into work, and then trying

27:00

to leave work at the precise time to get

27:02

home to relieve whatever caregiver they

27:03

had done, like, mad dash that

27:05

no one wants to return to, so they can

27:08

possibly avoid it they're going to. Yeah.

27:10

I mean, obviously and there are

27:12

jobs and projects that

27:14

require you to be someplace

27:16

in person -- Yeah. -- and no shade

27:18

on that. Yeah. But I find often that

27:20

many companies that are now insisting

27:23

people come back to the office

27:25

for some amorphous

27:28

cultural reason. have absolutely

27:30

nothing to back that up. Like,

27:32

nothing in terms of productivity, in terms

27:34

of statistics. Like, there's no they're

27:36

there, and I think employees are pretty

27:38

clear about that. So I'm trying to think

27:39

like, how can we

27:41

help this person feel like

27:43

they are not tied

27:46

to this idea of office hours. So,

27:48

like, what other conversations can she have or

27:50

even tricks since it's clear that right now,

27:53

this company is not interested

27:56

in a more company wide

27:58

systemic change that this is an

28:00

allowance that is being given to her,

28:02

which is always precarious

28:04

because that means that it can be

28:05

very easily taken away because it's not

28:07

codified in any way. But

28:09

I

28:09

think that there are things that she can do

28:12

to make them feel like she

28:14

is

28:14

working even when she's not working. Do

28:16

you know what I'm I'm just trying to figure out how she

28:18

can

28:18

manage up. Absolutely.

28:20

So one trick

28:22

that I've heard about. It's a

28:24

lot of, like, calendar jujitsu,

28:27

depending on how much people are looking

28:29

at your Microsoft or Google

28:31

calendars, but, like, sort

28:33

of instantaneously putting

28:36

things on the calendar that maybe

28:39

are not the full truth,

28:41

but

28:41

we'll make it appear that you are

28:43

working the standard

28:45

office hours. That's

28:48

when that I've heard a lot of parents employ if

28:50

it is frowned upon or seen

28:52

that like, oh, you know, going to

28:54

my kids practice at, you know,

28:56

four PM on Thursday is is, you

28:58

know, gonna make me seem less committed.

29:00

Maybe there's just a super important meeting

29:03

or work that you

29:05

can put on your calendar that you're doing

29:07

at that point that you actually do at seven

29:09

PM that night or whenever is better

29:11

for you. So Totally. We

29:13

are taping this at a moment when

29:15

the this discourse around quiet quitting

29:17

is still very much in the air.

29:20

And what we're talking

29:21

about here isn't even quiet

29:23

quitting. It's just about, like, doing your

29:25

work when you wanna do your work and still

29:27

doing your work really well. Right? Like, this

29:29

isn't about jerking responsibility. It

29:31

isn't about what like, one CEO told

29:33

me one

29:33

time that if someone got all

29:35

their work done for a given day,

29:38

in six

29:38

hours, but they were expected to work an eight hour

29:41

workday. And if they didn't sit in their

29:43

chairs and just, like,

29:45

be there that they would be

29:48

committing wage theft

29:49

just by right?

29:51

Because they weren't they weren't working

29:54

during that time. And

29:56

I think one of the things that

29:58

we have to shift our understanding of

29:59

is, like, different tasks, take different

30:02

times for different people. And if

30:04

someone is salaried and they're

30:06

getting the same amount of work

30:08

done on

30:08

their own schedule as

30:10

they would have, or if getting more work done on their

30:12

own schedule, then they would have worked in an

30:14

eight to five, then

30:16

why not let

30:17

them? But also, how do we convince those

30:20

higher ups? that that's the

30:22

case. Maybe it involves a little bit of

30:24

magic tricking. I think it involves

30:25

a little bit of magic tricking.

30:27

I think it involves unfortunate

30:30

I mean, we have these

30:32

beautiful portable devices in our

30:34

hands that allow people to

30:36

have no idea where we are physically

30:38

in space at the time. Mhmm. And

30:40

so, like, I don't know why anyone keeps

30:42

sent from my iPhone on their

30:44

iPhone. I have

30:45

I took that off immediately. Nobody needs

30:47

to know AM. Nobody used to know that I well,

30:49

like, where I am in space. I am responding to your

30:52

email, and that is the output. That's the

30:54

output that you want. You know, I you don't need to know

30:56

where I am. I always felt

30:58

that way since the invention of the

31:00

iPhone. Yeah. As long as I've been

31:02

employed. So, like, you know, nobody

31:04

needs to they don't need to know where you

31:06

are. They just don't. Yeah. Yeah. Or

31:07

you could, like, you know, schedule,

31:10

send a

31:10

reply to go, like, two hours after

31:12

the time that you would usually send it. So, like, if you were you've

31:15

completed the email at two PM, have it send

31:17

at four

31:17

PM. Yep. This is the opposite

31:20

of all advice that I give to

31:22

people who actually have flex in their

31:24

workplace. Like, for those people,

31:26

I'm always like, figure

31:27

out how to make boundaries between,

31:29

like, work in the rest of your life, like,

31:32

know, be have a little bit more

31:34

hygiene with that slipperiness that

31:36

sometimes comes with remote and portable

31:38

work. Whereas this person, we're

31:40

basically saying, like, figure

31:42

out how to sharpen your

31:43

job, how to live action, role play your job a

31:45

little bit more so that your

31:48

bosses won't be so weird

31:50

about this. in

31:51

an ideal world, obviously, this person

31:53

would be able to change her office culture. And

31:55

she would be able to, like, get up

31:57

on the desk network style

31:59

and say, like, I'm mad as hell and I'm

32:01

not taking anymore. We need XINZ for

32:03

this company. It is

32:06

always left to the

32:08

folks who will

32:09

be most easily and first punished

32:11

to do that work, to change

32:13

the culture. Mhmm. And I'm

32:16

just in my old age,

32:18

seen so many people who

32:20

have tried to change cultures,

32:22

get fed up, and quit basically,

32:25

or just get sort

32:27

of pushed

32:28

aside and not allowed

32:30

to reach their full potential

32:34

at a company or in a job. And

32:36

so, listen.

32:38

We all we need those reformers. Companies

32:40

will never change. But especially if

32:42

you have little kids and you need

32:45

a job, to survive. Like, it's

32:47

not always the right time to stick your

32:49

neck out. Right. And maybe in five years,

32:51

that's the time. when you get

32:53

on a committee that advocates for this change for people

32:55

who want it. Like, maybe this is a

32:57

long term plan

32:58

for this very inflexible

33:00

company is, like, when you accumulate

33:03

more power, you use that

33:05

power so that other

33:05

people can have the same privileges that you

33:08

had. So our

33:09

advice for Sarah boils down

33:11

to

33:13

One, see if she can communicate with

33:15

her bosses in a way that, like, suggests that,

33:17

like, here's all the work that I'm doing, like, basically

33:20

showing that productivity. if she

33:22

wants to, like, that's the beginning of the

33:24

conversation. But if she's tired of

33:26

advocating for this sort of thing, there

33:28

are workarounds that create a

33:30

sleight of hands that she is working at these

33:32

times, that other people think she

33:34

should be working at. But

33:35

then the third is

33:37

really that, like, she is not singularly

33:39

responsible for changing this

33:42

pretty old school culture

33:44

of her company. She can be the beginning

33:46

of change, but

33:47

especially if she has younger kids, if she's

33:49

exhausted, if it just feels like it's very

33:52

awesome. That change can

33:54

come, but she does not have to

33:56

be wholly responsible for it

33:58

herself.

34:04

So our last question, I think

34:07

it is perfect for you, but it is also going

34:09

to frustrate you, I think, or

34:11

maybe just throw something at the wall. I don't

34:13

know. The topic always makes me want to throw things,

34:16

but it might also give us an opportunity to

34:18

talk about

34:20

some brighter things to do with the future. This is from

34:22

someone named Chelsea, and

34:23

our producer Melody is going to read

34:25

it. Is anything concrete developing

34:27

for affordable access

34:30

to reliable childcare? I'm a single parent and have

34:32

been on a waiting list for my daughter's after

34:34

school program

34:35

for over a

34:38

year. Baby sitters are charging twenty five dollars an hour for

34:40

care in my city, and my

34:42

work requires

34:43

on-site hours. This impacted

34:46

my progress at work,

34:48

my income, and added another

34:50

layer of stress. How are

34:52

other working parents managing? So,

34:55

Jess, what good news do you have

34:57

for Chelsea? Well, I feel like

35:00

just replying to the

35:01

question, how are other parents

35:04

managing with that gift from

35:06

Durinda from real housewives

35:08

of New

35:08

York saying not well,

35:10

bitch. Like, we're not It's

35:13

like not. managing this well. So you are

35:15

really not alone. It is

35:18

expensive. It is inaccessible.

35:20

In December, I wrote a story

35:22

authority that I

35:23

think was

35:25

titled. Parents are back

35:27

to work, but childcare resources

35:29

are quote unquote

35:32

laughable. Yep. Child care was already

35:34

a broken system and not

35:36

reliable and very expensive before

35:40

COVID hit and now is

35:42

worse. Mhmm.

35:43

And that is just full stop the

35:46

truth. So

35:48

many, many

35:48

many, many parents are

35:50

struggling to make this work. So that's

35:52

just the first part that you're not

35:54

alone. Yeah. In terms

35:56

of systemic

35:58

change, there are a lot of amazing

35:59

who are working so hard.

36:02

Especially on the state level, I

36:04

think as we know, the federal government is

36:06

not working.

36:08

great

36:08

right now in a lot of ways. I mean, there have

36:10

been a couple bright lights recently, but

36:12

not around child care.

36:16

And so there

36:17

was a lot of money pumped into governments during COVID in

36:19

a good way. And so some of

36:21

them, particularly I've heard

36:24

of New Mexico, the city of Washington DC,

36:26

Washington State, where things

36:28

like universal

36:29

preschool, better paid childcare

36:31

workers. Like,

36:32

there are so

36:35

many people who care about this issue so much and are

36:37

working so hard to make these

36:39

systemic changes

36:40

happen.

36:43

That

36:43

said, like, in the near

36:46

term, I wish I could get

36:48

you

36:48

off that waitlist tomorrow, but

36:50

I I don't know that

36:53

the

36:53

ambulance is coming

36:56

in

36:56

the very near term for folks

36:58

living

36:58

through this right now. And I just wanted to

37:00

also say that I'm so sorry that this is

37:02

happening for you. It is so stressful and it just

37:05

shouldn't it shouldn't be this way. So I just

37:07

my heart really goes out to this

37:09

listener because it's it's terrible. It's the worst

37:11

feeling because you need to provide for your kids and you need to have a

37:13

safe place for them to be and not being

37:16

able to do that

37:18

is just It stinks.

37:20

So I feel really, you know, it's

37:22

it's a not fun place to be in.

37:24

You know, one

37:25

of the things that I found

37:26

when I was reporting about basically

37:28

just how broken the

37:29

healthcare system was and

37:32

is,

37:33

is that There's

37:35

a real amnesia that happens oftentimes

37:37

with parents like this is the reason why there

37:39

hasn't been as much activism

37:42

as one might expect given that so

37:44

many people or parents in this

37:46

country is that once you

37:47

get through it, you're exhausted. Mhmm.

37:49

And you're angry in part because

37:51

you've spent so much money but

37:54

you you start to focus on other things

37:56

instead of thinking how can I build

37:58

this system so

37:59

that no

37:59

one else has to go through what I went

38:02

through. And

38:02

and I

38:03

understand that. Absolutely. But I think it

38:05

also we see it a little bit in

38:07

terms of what happens with after

38:10

school and before school

38:12

care because it seems like people are really, really

38:14

struggling, absolutely struggling with

38:16

care for I mean infant

38:18

care is

38:18

in print terrorism credible,

38:20

mass affordable infant care. Like,

38:21

and if you don't have leave, just what are

38:23

you gonna do? But also with,

38:25

you know, pre

38:28

k all

38:28

that sort of like, that's where

38:30

there's a lot of energy focused when that

38:32

interstitial care, when The

38:35

kids are done with school, but you're

38:36

not done with work, and what

38:38

do you do

38:39

for those hours? When we

38:41

were kids in a lot of

38:43

places, you went home alone. or

38:45

you had a family member who

38:47

was there. And our civilization

38:49

is still really organized around

38:51

the idea that every family

38:53

has someone who is

38:54

in the home. Mhmm. And

38:55

so those those parents, like, even

38:57

our previous listener who can be home when

38:59

her kids are done, In

39:01

some ways, that makes it so that

39:04

there's less pressure for the

39:06

change that needs to happen for people who

39:08

can't be home. Does that

39:10

make sense? Absolutely.

39:10

But that's why the ultimate problem is that everyone is figuring out

39:13

their own individual solutions because they type to.

39:15

There is, you

39:15

know, your

39:18

kids have to

39:18

go somewhere that you feel they are safe. And so I don't

39:21

think that it's a lack of desire

39:22

to make a more systemic

39:25

change. It's that in

39:28

the near

39:29

term, it's not something you can neglect to deal

39:31

with. Yes. One hundred percent.

39:33

For eighty five. Yes.

39:36

Like, you need the child care so that you could even advocate

39:38

for the change that

39:39

would be systemic in the future.

39:40

Yeah. No. And I I don't want a

39:43

mistake that I'm saying that,

39:44

like, people

39:46

don't care about this. It's more that

39:48

they exhaust their their

39:50

body battery again of caring

39:52

by looking for all of the care

39:55

that then there's just so little left to to advocate

39:57

for the the longer term changes. Yeah. And

39:59

I

39:59

think this would be such a

40:02

societal change that it's like, I don't even know

40:04

how you would

40:05

begin to make it happen, but

40:07

Americans work more hours than

40:09

people in many developed countries do.

40:12

Yeah. And I I can

40:14

speak for myself and say that, like, my ideal

40:18

scenario

40:18

if I could shoot there were

40:20

no societal pressures, if there were no

40:23

set work hours, I

40:25

would like to

40:26

work what would

40:28

be thought of as three quarter time.

40:30

Yep.

40:31

And actually spend

40:32

more time with my children

40:34

those

40:35

situations are almost impossible to come by

40:36

-- Yeah. -- about taking such a

40:39

financial hit that,

40:40

you know,

40:42

that wouldn't work most families the income. I personally

40:45

am like, I don't wanna be

40:47

a top manager anywhere ever.

40:51

I would like to work less. I would

40:53

like to spend more time with my

40:55

family and less

40:56

stressed time with my family where

40:58

I'm thinking about seventeen

40:59

other things and I can't be present

41:02

because I'm worried about

41:04

getting something else done. And

41:06

that's not again. It's not a child care solution. Yeah.

41:08

But No. And that that the

41:11

fact that in many different industries,

41:14

they're only is full

41:16

time or no time -- Yeah. -- is

41:18

part of what I think is forcing

41:20

some mothers

41:20

to drop out of the

41:22

workforce right now. Right. But I mean,

41:24

in the case of this questioner,

41:26

if yeah. There there might be enough

41:28

childcare to go around with

41:31

our current system if we could have other

41:33

release spells.

41:34

Because right now,

41:36

the

41:37

situation that it It's

41:39

like we need to complete overhaul of the childcare

41:41

system to even have enough

41:43

supply for the demand

41:46

that exists. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, do you even have enough teachers who are willing to do

41:48

this work? Who do that? Many like,

41:50

people want to do this work. It's just that

41:51

it pays in many

41:54

states poverty wages. Yep.

41:56

It's

41:56

ridiculous. I mean, the whole thing

41:58

is just like, every every time you try

41:59

to find a solution for a problem, it

42:02

creates another problem. Mhmm. I'm

42:04

afraid

42:04

that any sort of suggestion I give is just

42:06

gonna sound so basic and stupid, and

42:08

I'm sure this person has already exhausted

42:10

every potential lead in

42:12

her community. So like, I

42:15

would say,

42:15

especially during the pandemic,

42:18

I know a lot of folks who did

42:20

sort of co op

42:22

style,

42:22

childcare,

42:24

where, you

42:24

know, when it was remote school

42:27

every day. And so all the kids would just be at one house Yep. -- for one day a

42:29

week. So it was less of a burden for everyone,

42:31

but that one day

42:34

was so horrible. But

42:35

I'm like, I couldn't do it.

42:37

Right. But that's like the only if there's

42:39

no family around

42:42

to help. I'm like, is there some

42:44

sort of cooperative solution? Right. because I'm sure that

42:46

this listener is not the only

42:48

person who is wait list

42:51

did. Yeah. Yeah. And if there's whether

42:53

it's a parent listserv or a community

42:55

group, like, on Facebook or

42:57

on whatever, like, there are other people that you could do

42:59

essentially, like, I don't

43:00

think you'd call it a nanny share. You'd call it

43:02

a babysitter share. Yeah. It's for

43:06

older kids. a babysitter taking care of, like, four infants is very different than a

43:08

babysitter watching over four, nine year

43:10

olds. Totally. And if you have a local

43:12

college that

43:14

is usually a really great

43:15

source of potential babysitters. And

43:18

again, you can share the cost if

43:20

they're older kids. It's just like

43:23

not that hard to take them to the

43:25

park and and watch all of them for, you

43:27

know, a couple hours every

43:28

day. You know, again,

43:30

These

43:31

things are hard to find their sweat equity in finding

43:33

them. Mhmm. And it

43:36

stinks.

43:36

But that's the only sort of

43:39

solution that I can think of

43:42

that she maybe hasn't

43:44

already done, but maybe

43:45

she already has tried it Well,

43:47

and I you know, her question, the way that

43:49

it was posed, really highlights

43:51

to me the fact that

43:53

when you don't have this system in

43:55

place, this infrastructure, great child care

43:56

as infrastructure as Elizabeth

43:58

Warren and many others put

43:59

it, many others today then

44:02

every

44:03

other part of our infrastructure suffers. Right? Like, it is

44:05

it is a structural

44:06

component of a functioning

44:08

society to

44:10

have some measure of care. That doesn't mean that every single mother needs

44:12

to be

44:12

working or every single parent needs to

44:15

be working,

44:15

but there needs to be some measure of

44:17

care that people can use.

44:19

That's a four unaccessible. And if you don't have it,

44:21

then people aren't as good at their jobs. They aren't

44:23

as good at being a member of their community.

44:26

There's just all sorts of things that

44:28

begin to filter as

44:30

well. So true.

44:32

So that was all that's

44:34

not really good news. But I'm

44:36

trying to think something from

44:38

recent reporting, recent stories that, like, really makes you feel like,

44:40

oh, things might change in this

44:42

realm. We might we might be coming

44:45

up

44:45

on something that's gonna make

44:48

parenting

44:49

easier moving forward.

44:55

It

44:55

can even be a gadget. It

44:57

can be an app. It

44:59

can be

45:00

the new season of blue y. Right?

45:02

Yeah. So what I

45:03

would say is that I do think

45:05

more people are just calling bullshit on

45:08

the entire way

45:10

that we are supposed to survive

45:12

in this current system

45:15

of of demands on our time

45:17

and on our souls and on

45:19

our children and trying

45:22

to find a way

45:23

forward that might

45:26

be very radical or it might be

45:28

a little incremental, but sort of just

45:31

seeing through a lot of the

45:34

bullshit for what it

45:36

is. Yeah.

45:36

And so I do think more more and

45:38

more people are sort of questioning

45:40

a lot of the expectations that are

45:43

put on parents

45:44

and trying to find

45:46

new ways of doing things.

45:50

I think like part of the bullshit that they're calling is just this whole,

45:52

like, individualist family narrative

45:55

of self

45:55

sufficiency. Right? Like, you just can't do

45:57

it by yourself.

45:58

it by yourself No.

46:00

For

46:00

me personally and we're

46:02

obviously very lucky to have this. We

46:04

live near my parents and I

46:07

don't think I we would have been able to have a second kid if

46:09

we didn't live near a family. And just as,

46:12

you know, knowing in the back of my

46:14

head that that's an

46:16

emergency stop gap. for

46:18

us has been

46:21

just immeasurably satisfying.

46:23

And I

46:23

think during the pandemic, a

46:25

lot of folks moved to

46:28

be closer to family. Yeah. And I and

46:30

that I wouldn't say that gives me

46:32

hope, but I do think that that going

46:34

to make life richer and easier

46:36

for a lot of families. Just

46:39

your kids having

46:40

relationships with other trusted adults

46:44

makes their lives

46:46

so much richer and better. I mean,

46:49

it's suffocating

46:51

to have just you

46:53

know, the nuclear family to rely

46:55

on at all. Yeah. It's

46:57

really boring. For everybody. Yeah.

47:00

Yeah. I really encourage

47:01

other people who don't

47:02

have good do have kids to become

47:04

that person in

47:05

other kids lives too because no

47:07

matter what age you are, if you're older,

47:09

if you're younger, the parents

47:10

of those children will be grateful for you in many

47:12

different ways, but also it's really

47:14

wonderful to have a relationship.

47:17

with a kid that's like that. It's just fun. We have

47:19

one of our best friends lives in the

47:21

apartment across the street from

47:23

us. And she loves

47:25

my kid. She comes over with her

47:28

dogs. They watch movies together.

47:30

Like, it's the sweetest, most

47:32

fun. She tells them

47:34

that they they can't

47:36

wrestle because she's not that kind of babysitter.

47:38

Like, just don't like, you can't hurt

47:40

yourselves when I'm here. Like

47:42

Yeah. You have to be cool. just be

47:44

cool. And they're like, okay, we got it. And they

47:46

do it. They would never they never do

47:48

that for me, but they have so much fun

47:51

with her and it's such fruitful

47:53

relationship for everybody. So, yeah, I mean, I

47:55

think more people are certainly

47:58

realizing the

47:59

value

47:59

of that. and

48:01

that's excellent. I am so

48:03

grateful that you were willing to come

48:05

and address these questions with me today because

48:07

you have that

48:10

perfect mix of, like, deep knowledge of policy and

48:12

also having talk spoken

48:14

to hundreds and hundreds of

48:16

parents about everything that's going on over

48:18

the last few years,

48:20

but then also you just have

48:22

a really empathetic heart and I think that

48:24

that's a great quality to have and then a

48:26

vice giver. So Thank you for coming

48:28

on. Thank you so

48:29

much for having me. That really that's

48:31

so sweet. I really touched. I

48:33

really touched me. I hope my

48:36

advice was not too

48:38

sassy. Some people just lie

48:40

to their

48:42

employers. And just full disclosure,

48:44

I would never lie to

48:46

my current employer about anything. Only

48:49

the hundred percent truth ever.

48:52

So, you know, every email is

48:54

sent from your computer. From my computer.

48:56

I never leave my

48:58

desk. I

48:59

was so glad

49:02

to talk to

49:05

Jessica

49:07

Gross for this episode, and thanks so much

49:09

to those of you who submitted questions for us.

49:11

I genuinely hope your lives

49:13

get easier soon. and

49:16

thanks to you for listening to work appropriate. If

49:17

you've got a workplace quandary you want help figuring

49:20

out, get in

49:20

touch. You can find submission guidelines

49:23

at work appropriate

49:24

dot send

49:26

a voice memo with your questions to work appropriate at crooked

49:28

dot com. Some of the episodes we're

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working on involve what to do when

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49:35

soul or how to process traumatic things that happen to you

49:37

against the backdrop of work. And then

49:39

all things union and

49:41

labor and organizing. we'd

49:44

love to hear from you. Work appropriate

49:46

is a crooked media production. I'm

49:48

Anne Helen Peterson, your

49:50

host. our executive producers

49:52

are Kendra James and Sandy

49:54

Girard. Melody Raul

49:56

is our producer and editor.

49:58

Allison Palzetta is our development producer.

49:59

Music is composed by Chanel

50:02

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50:05

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50:07

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50:10

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