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1:00

Sounds Music Radio Podcasts

1:02

losers you know time.

1:04

From Bbc Radio Four and this is one

1:06

of more than of Posen episode you can

1:09

find on Bbc. Sounds on our website. If

1:11

you scroll down the page with this. Edition

1:13

You find a reading list to go with

1:15

it. I hope you enjoy the program. Hello!

1:19

And for eleven be she Athenians

1:21

watched. On Us open A new comedy. Lysistrata

1:24

for the first and only john.

1:26

He was unforgettable. He showed. The

1:28

women of Athens and Sparta so wanting peace

1:30

in the long war with each other that

1:32

they she's the treasure on. Necropolis that would

1:35

fund. The Fighting And the declare Six.

1:37

Strike And they when. It was

1:39

all photos to good. Enough to be palatable

1:41

to the audience. Loves. The challenging question?

1:43

What do we find you fool? Live.

1:45

Patriarchal Athenians didn't want to give grown

1:48

to women will need. Time to the deaths

1:50

of so many men to stop. With.

1:52

Me to discuss Earnest organisers is

1:54

reader or so Miles Associate Professor

1:56

and the Development of Classics and

1:58

Ancient History Durham University. James

2:00

Robson purpose of Classical so this

2:02

is the Open University and Ball

2:04

Kasich as you'll him and his

2:06

senior research fellow of Claire College

2:09

University of Cambridge Paul Paul College

2:11

who was our sovereign is somewhat

2:13

it arises he was a poet

2:15

please use means and maker. He

2:17

was an Athenian, probably quite upper

2:19

classes, son of Finley Thoughts which

2:21

means lover of horses which probably

2:24

suggests he comes from a horsey

2:26

background, and he was born somewhere

2:28

around the middle of a. Fifth

2:30

century bc So we're in the

2:32

for forties by the generation after

2:35

the major class and conflict which

2:37

involve many Greeks in the eastern

2:39

part of for the Mediterranean when

2:42

they were invaded by Persians and

2:44

number plays fire stuff nice refer

2:47

back to and one reason for

2:49

that was as a result of

2:51

that conflict to great cities greeks

2:54

it is emerge one of which

2:56

was Athens and that was the

2:58

Athens into it's Aristophanes. Was born

3:01

quite an extraordinary he or of

3:03

it likes learned friend about

3:05

fifteen hundred so he felt was

3:08

his genius ran nothing the tragic

3:10

vain but in the comics

3:12

vain and actually had lot of

3:14

fun doing para tragedy so we

3:17

know as he wrote something

3:19

like and had performed something like

3:21

forty plus plays but all those

3:24

forty plus only eleven survive and

3:26

the one we're looking at his

3:28

number seven in. Terms of survival

3:31

the Lysis into when know absolutely

3:33

soon wits of the to play

3:35

festivals of for Eleven B C

3:37

it was performed that but he

3:40

has a very long career After

3:42

that he died, rethink somewhere around

3:44

Three Eight Five and their up

3:47

for more plays by him surviving

3:49

off the the Lysistrata will be

3:51

going on between Athens and Sparta

3:53

at that time and wanted the

3:56

Athenians endured Athens between for A

3:58

To and three thirty they were

4:00

two years the of free actually

4:02

fighting someone else, not just known

4:05

Greek spur of the Greeks the

4:07

most famous. the most disastrous of

4:09

those conflicts was what we call

4:11

the Peloponnesian War or V a

4:14

scene know Peloponnesian War. This broke

4:16

out when they're self nice was

4:18

about fifteen, went on on and

4:20

off for twenty seven years and

4:23

it was off to the resumption.

4:25

This is a slightly controversial some

4:27

historians ancient and modern. fate was

4:29

just one. More others say it

4:32

was too was separated by a

4:34

period piece. But what we're dealing

4:36

with unambiguously a period of war

4:39

and Athens is doing exceptionally badly.

4:41

They'd rather stupidly overeat themselves in

4:43

Four One Five, having made a

4:45

kind of peace with Sparta and

4:48

a soft nice wrote a play

4:50

piece to mark that juncture having

4:52

done that way then center again

4:54

and this thing in Cook too

4:57

big for their boots and one

4:59

of their. Adventures. It was

5:01

not just a venture with to

5:03

try to conquer not just one.

5:05

Citizens are in Sicily business, the

5:08

whole of Sicily Disaster. Thousands of

5:10

Athenians died and less just two

5:12

years before. The lie systems are,

5:15

so that would have been very

5:17

much in the minds of ordinary

5:19

Athenians with their brothers and uncles

5:21

that have a male relative. Many.

5:24

Of them dead Thank you Sir Miles

5:26

we talking about. I still plays right

5:28

into comedy genre. They write in comedy

5:30

or tragedy that and mix them up

5:32

or my doonies have expected when they

5:34

went along to this would. Well.

5:37

As a comedy performance, it comes

5:39

as part of the festival context

5:42

by this festival. Was not just

5:44

automatons celebrate occasion. it was one where

5:46

we had competition. Sour Stuff Nice was

5:48

one of many comic pilots are three

5:50

with and can eat is competing against

5:52

each other. So the top prize to

5:54

be seen as the best comedian of

5:56

the year that was the Bronx. The

5:58

prize at a good question. I'm

6:00

on. It was most importantly popularity, same,

6:03

and potentially the ability to promote plays

6:05

on a who. And I say that

6:07

because are still Sunnis are had his

6:09

first play put on and Forty Seven

6:12

and his plays will put on through

6:14

the decades, throughout the Peloponnesian War and

6:16

beyond. In each and that's the joy

6:18

of lose. Forty plays that we haven't

6:21

we know of and the eleven place

6:23

that we have. They cover for twenties

6:25

for tens, four hundred, three, ninety, three,

6:27

eighties. so we get a sense of.

6:30

The comedies that developed over time for the

6:32

rest of these. The other thing about the

6:34

festival contacts are stuff in his is competing

6:36

in is there are also performances of tragedy

6:38

and he referred to that So we have

6:41

the great to the dean's his colors Sophocles

6:43

Europe at ease during our stuff in his

6:45

lifetime, Sophocles in Europe at ease of the

6:47

only twenty didn't throw around his glasses already

6:49

died. So this is a festival context in

6:51

which you're going to come and see tragedies

6:54

that will read your heart failure with emotion

6:56

bring you to what Aristotle cool, the point

6:58

of catharsis a kind of. Ritual

7:00

purging with stories such. As

7:02

eat of us to run as the

7:04

Buckeyes, all kinds of horrifying and wonderful

7:06

journeys into the depths of when it

7:09

has to be human. and then after

7:11

that you. Get the raucous comedy in

7:13

our societies and.is such a different

7:15

place to be. With Aristophanes, all

7:17

his comedies are set in the

7:19

contemporary world, they are part of

7:21

Athenian lice and they are very

7:23

much drawing on the world around

7:25

and you can see our side

7:28

comedy as quite a parasite on

7:30

society, on politics, on the people

7:32

around it in order to create

7:34

the comedy that the audience others

7:36

to see you to lose the

7:38

something about the setting of that

7:40

place by the setting. You mean environment

7:42

that there any of the theater of

7:44

die Nice as itself. So we're on

7:46

the southeast lopes of the Acropolis, so

7:48

in the heart of Athens at the

7:51

House of a Democracy itself right under

7:53

the Parthenon and the Temple of Athena

7:55

which of course will be pivotal for

7:57

the place. Lysistrata herself and innovative done

7:59

Isis around. Thousand are. Stuff Nice.

8:01

Frogs A different place as that. There

8:03

were about ten thousand people in the

8:05

audience, so we're We're looking at a

8:08

huge opener outdoor performance, Not as

8:10

big as Glastonbury, although I think I looked

8:12

up With that said in Nineteen Seventy One

8:14

when David. Bowie performed. There were about ten

8:17

thousand people present, so that's like on

8:19

a scale that you're lucky and. And

8:21

the thing is, you're sitting in an outdoor

8:23

environments. There's no. Fourth Wall between

8:25

audience and actors. Every performance

8:28

of comedy out a chorus

8:30

of twenty four Athenian citizens.

8:33

And they would all have been male citizens.

8:35

Who performed the dancing, singing. The musical aspect

8:37

of Arsenic Company was everybody in the play

8:39

Mail: Everyone in the play was males was

8:41

ever been in New Orleans Mail? That is

8:44

the biggest. A basic question that we know

8:46

that what we. Can say for sure

8:48

is there are definitely a male

8:50

dominance audience. They're all For example,

8:52

in Aristophanes birds there is reference

8:54

to. The idea that you can knit home

8:57

and and have sex with someone you're not supposed

8:59

to because everyone else of in the theater so

9:01

they're that's taken as proof that women are home.

9:03

But also, that doesn't have to mean that all women. Were

9:06

at home so it's a debated thing,

9:08

but they're not going to be the

9:10

dominant possibilities, but they're going to be

9:12

fairly strong in the plays. So so

9:14

Aristophanes, Lysistrata House and all female set

9:16

up Tigris and Lysistrata and the other

9:18

women to cool the set strike and

9:20

they sort of Silda states from the

9:22

beginning and then we me to chorus

9:24

that is hop female and half mail

9:26

which represents a conflict in the play.

9:28

Thank you I'm James use of some

9:30

preorder on the put in more detail

9:32

than I did. Sure you alluded to

9:34

some of the major. Parts of the

9:36

plus already. So this is famous for

9:39

being to play about the sex Strike.

9:41

As Sarah said it takes part place

9:43

in contemporary Athens and sites the country

9:45

Athens to the I'm as seen in

9:47

audiences someone at Nbc and it takes

9:50

place against the backdrop of the Peloponnesian

9:52

war as her some at the beginning

9:54

of the place Lysistrata cause women together

9:56

from all over Greece and she has

9:59

is burning purposes. In the put

10:01

them which we eventually discover is desperate

10:03

position of us strike following the women's

10:05

ruth and agreements to that sex strike

10:07

where she discovered as a second stanza

10:10

how plot in the next chunk of

10:12

the plays best. So it's the women's

10:14

the old women's seizure an occupation of

10:16

the offensiveness the men turn off is

10:19

Sarah says half of their of course

10:21

our old manual half old women men

10:23

sign up to try and oust the

10:25

women Necropolis The unsuccessful and this is

10:28

my sister to the opportunity to explain.

10:30

Why they've cz Acropolis and why

10:32

the once puts an end to

10:34

the war. She lands some pretty

10:37

good punches cheering her exposition sets.

10:39

Essentially, she doesn't win the battle

10:41

of hearts and minds are essential

10:43

functions. She talks about the poignant

10:45

see some of the difficulties this

10:47

women face are being left behind.

10:49

That she talks about somebody quite

10:52

dark things like the best of

10:54

women's sun sipping sense houses, hop

10:56

flights having sense houses soldiers. He

10:59

talks about the disruption to these

11:01

it to the oil costs of

11:03

a household as well. That men's

11:05

absence brings code seems. Mrs she

11:07

goes out one day and summons

11:09

all of whose bring them happens

11:11

in a news wants to join

11:13

on they do. Is there any

11:15

sense in the takes all after

11:17

the text of this might be

11:19

an image bit of a difficult

11:21

come on. Oh absolutely. Vista and

11:23

see. the whole plot is completely

11:25

logically impossible from beginning to end.

11:27

I think if is. Aristophanes has

11:29

a particular genius and Lysistrata is

11:31

that he moved to focus from

11:33

from seems seems to from thought

11:35

to thought so rapidly. The don't

11:37

see all of the plot flaws

11:39

but of course that they marry

11:41

as and feel chance we'll the

11:43

idea that she could get messages

11:46

two million for across greasy i'd

11:48

his idols conveniently arrive in the

11:50

right order at the same time

11:52

The idea mean the whole idea

11:54

behind a sec strike As well

11:56

as this men are deprived of

11:58

having sex. With their wives and. Hello to

12:00

get these permanent small interactions after six

12:02

days. That right of the begin with

12:04

the play. We've already heard that the

12:06

men have been absent from their homes

12:08

some house and months on end and

12:10

also the men seem not to realize

12:12

that masturbation is something or say kids

12:14

are used it. Secure that song on

12:16

their actions, Lie to sites that sister

12:19

a him says as some of the

12:21

answer was your own slaves and procedures

12:23

soon as on the such user is

12:25

plenty suffer most absolutely yeah and say

12:27

prostitution isn't really alluded to I'm asking.

12:29

Had a very. Active prostitution industry and

12:31

the classic lire but of course I'm

12:33

not really mentions the resisting of reconciliation

12:35

he was proton towards the end of

12:38

the play. He seems to be a

12:40

prostitute stake out but prostitutes on mentions

12:42

same sex sex isn't mentioned as an

12:45

outlet and so in of In order

12:47

for the the sex strike plots be

12:49

effective you have to regards. The

12:51

only type A sexy you can have

12:53

his his six within marriage and is

12:55

emphasized by the voted The men who

12:57

play men will grow with an enormous

12:59

the that solas dangling in front of

13:02

them for some time with would in

13:04

and so is immersed in front of

13:06

them. Yeah this is a fit of

13:08

comic genius and Aristophanes parts as well

13:10

say it's part of the traditional garb

13:12

and hub of a comic actor. You'd

13:14

have padding, body putting some big stomach

13:16

into a padded chested, have padded from

13:18

his mouth the it's fishing have this

13:20

and dangling of men a fantasy. Now

13:22

are some places as his genius idea of

13:24

turning them up the other way and we

13:26

don't know. That's and Athena we have never

13:29

seen this before. This is really amazing comic

13:31

idea when tiny sisters the first man who

13:33

comes on about halfway through the play with

13:35

this giant some erection and then we get

13:37

other male characters joining him as well. sold

13:39

a disk when we don't know do we

13:42

whether it won the prize will not will

13:44

say. I'm screwing

13:46

your bull. Can you tell? this is what

13:48

you know about the success or not of

13:50

the sixteenth or in. Terms of the play

13:52

in terms of the plane wasn't as the

13:55

end, it's crucial but some on I think

13:57

this is a bit of a historic on

13:59

St. And this is

14:01

a marine thing suggestion I read

14:04

which is that why did I

14:06

stuff nice to write a woman

14:08

play for one of the reasons

14:10

may be what Tame said. Lots

14:13

of women were really distressed they

14:15

were widowed on their sons had

14:17

just been killed. But women on

14:19

top winning women in charge is

14:22

a revolution. It's a complete the

14:24

world turned upside down. So why

14:26

would I have this thing as

14:28

a cure for the costly situation?

14:31

The offences in that would be

14:33

fun is a case of women

14:35

occupy the Acropolis now the sacred

14:37

Acropolis as me wrong with treasure

14:39

and yeah number of few reasons

14:42

in my humble opinion. One next

14:44

not is where the watch list

14:46

of the Athenians states physically was

14:48

held in the Parthenon. Now we

14:51

might think the perform puts a

14:53

temple. It must therefore be religious,

14:55

can't have anything to do with

14:57

mom and au contraire the Athenians.

15:00

Saw no disjunction. And secondly,

15:02

the Priestess the highest priestess

15:04

of the entire Athenian stained.

15:06

She was actually the priestess

15:08

of Athena of the city

15:10

in north of the scene

15:12

of the virgin, but there

15:14

was no separate also between

15:16

those two. So in effect,

15:18

the worship of Athena of

15:21

the City and that was

15:23

super fifteen. the virgin sort

15:25

of melded together. Any rate,

15:27

her name happened to be

15:29

didn't just. Happen to be of

15:31

course as he sea monkey and that

15:33

I think is a punk ass of

15:35

nice. Very keen on puns paranormal zia

15:38

and this one literally puns on the

15:40

name of the chief priests s v

15:42

a scene in state who might have

15:44

been sitting right in the middle and

15:47

by next to the orchestra. When

15:49

not absolutely sure. So anyway the

15:52

point of this is even if

15:54

the husband's a so horny that

15:56

some they finally wish to make

15:59

peace if they still have access

16:01

to the silver on the Acropolis

16:04

in the Parthenon they conceal carry

16:06

on fighting in principle so the

16:08

Athenian women were that would double

16:11

down with the Spot and women

16:13

with a be ocean woman and

16:15

the currency moments and they say

16:18

no you weren't lay your hands

16:20

you can't afford to fight own

16:22

them The two fold plot which

16:25

have to him says is not

16:27

consequence and in a logical sense.

16:30

Nevertheless is both and braces on

16:32

the elemental month as he mentioned

16:34

that nice symmetry The name of

16:36

this priestess and of course ah

16:38

main character is my. Sister

16:40

and Licensing Greek means.

16:43

Someone who does olds. And

16:46

my sister is a name. That

16:48

means someone who dissolves the army's and

16:50

what's so interesting? Aristophanes loves to play

16:52

around with names and puns and at

16:55

the very opening of my sister when

16:57

she comes on stage, Lysistrata speaks to

16:59

herself wandering in Hama, going to get

17:01

these women together where are they that

17:03

late to see sort of the grumpy

17:06

about that And then she says all

17:08

i see my a thing and colleagues

17:10

my opinion fellow citizen coming on her

17:12

name is colony. And

17:15

cologne. Nico means beauty in

17:17

victory. Or Beauty and Victory

17:19

For the first opening moment where these

17:21

characters meet on stage we have one

17:23

say ah, greetings Kalinihta beautiful Victory and

17:26

your own says hi There is over

17:28

of armies so it's like the opening.

17:30

Before we got to the says line

17:32

of the play, we've already had the

17:34

whole thing setup. Lisa to carry to

17:36

see the here to make peace and

17:39

that's kind of a really neat way.

17:41

The arrest of his encapsulates the kind

17:43

of theme coming before we've even got

17:45

their sons. Very skillful. Blairite Disney yes,

17:47

I. Am a great man with. Words, but

17:49

also the physicality. And the visual

17:52

side of the comedies is is much

17:54

his conifer prerogative. So if I. Combat.

17:56

Side of sitting in the city. Da nice is

17:58

looking down on this. This movement of courses.

18:01

So through the first part of the play

18:03

you start with one woman on state lysistrata.

18:05

Than color Nikkei appears and

18:07

and marine We've got the

18:09

earn Corinthian and Verizon and

18:11

spouse. And lump it hopes they will come

18:14

on stage and then we have to sort of

18:16

gathering of women. So suddenly the state is

18:18

populated by women and then as we move

18:20

on and the play you have to split

18:22

course of women and men and notably also old

18:24

women and men I think not. Enough is

18:26

made of the fact that of course of

18:28

comedy is older. Women and older men.

18:31

It's not just men and women. On

18:34

Isis watching this chorus. Throughout

18:36

the first health the play are at

18:39

Loggerheads or fight physically fighting each other

18:41

and then by the end of the

18:43

play they come to resolution and and

18:45

come together. So Aristophanes skills there are

18:47

that you've what not battle and then

18:49

that coming together which by the time

18:52

we get to the end of the

18:54

play with reconciliation the course is one

18:56

again. Thank you James Zoom drugs and

18:58

I'm the lot of jokes. A lot

19:00

of board in this sub as bad

19:02

as it gets. really. Mean detail

19:04

is is of it for granted that they're gonna

19:07

be still. Gonna be swearing those gomez

19:09

isn't going to me that no

19:11

real absolutely so of fantasy is

19:13

a really central parts of the

19:15

old comic traditions how comedy the

19:17

genre in which are stuff nice

19:19

is right thing I think the

19:21

went to Seattle comic train you

19:24

didn't hear obscene language so to

19:26

direct references to the sexual and

19:28

scatological realm he be pretty disappointed.

19:30

As a whole I would say

19:32

this Athenians have relatively prudish in

19:34

fact so were you finds obscenity

19:36

use as normally. And rituals connected with

19:38

to meet her always sign Isis as

19:40

of the case with Santa. So this

19:43

is a Sauces Secrets Festival space where

19:45

you're allowed to put aside the normal

19:47

conventions of of everyday life. I think

19:49

within that though it's not just the

19:51

case that's our seventies is entertaining a

19:53

throwing. Lots of have fantasies ss it

19:55

is used for com to be sure

19:57

but he also doesn't really interesting a

19:59

subtle things with obscenity in the place

20:01

I use the Mouse River This for

20:03

example when my sister Ten proposes the

20:06

sec strike. We had another indication in

20:08

the prologue that something sex he's going

20:10

to be of propose boot. I know

20:12

exactly what it will most, what it's

20:14

gonna be and she says what you

20:16

need to abstain from women is top

20:18

hails so she's is direct reference to

20:20

the to the male member here and

20:22

so this has a shock value for

20:24

us as the you're in the audience

20:26

because we haven't heard an obscenity episodes

20:28

have a shock value. For the women

20:31

of course to pay us cock his

20:33

last thing that the women do you

20:35

want to use as thing from because

20:37

women stereotypically and comedy our sex mad

20:40

as well as am mad on these

20:42

am there are other ways in which

20:44

he uses and citizens and really subtle

20:46

piece of characterization I really love. So

20:48

when the old women are facing off

20:51

the magistrates at the acropolis the magistrate

20:53

brings and of his own is enough

20:55

since he sees Lysistrata and one of

20:57

the women steps forward and says. If

21:00

you lace emissions finger on her you're gonna

21:02

cry for over the place as uses his

21:04

this obscenity at the headset. Now one of

21:06

the unwritten rules of comedy is that women

21:08

do not use Tennessee's offensive men. So this

21:11

really beautifully shows how the women are being

21:13

transgressors at this point in time. The other

21:15

advantage I think of holding off? I'm using

21:17

too much obscenity as then Aristophanes is he

21:19

able to use it in the latter half

21:21

of the plate Or would he devastating effect

21:23

as well. So in the last half of

21:26

the play, this is how men express their

21:28

sexual frustration. say women's and no doubt. Whatsoever

21:30

as to what's can he says wants

21:32

to to his wife and were like

21:34

him to be will say when the

21:36

Spartan ambassador and the a senior ambassador

21:38

at the end of the play and

21:40

both ogling this characters of reconciliation this

21:42

beautiful young woman my sister to is

21:44

giving a lecture about traditional diverse was

21:46

be family and be at peace and

21:48

the only things that they in such

21:50

acts are comments about the by reconciliations

21:52

body in very direct comments at that

21:54

So again this is a piece away

21:56

the he shows the men's sexual frustration

21:58

at the end of the play Whenever

22:00

we when pieces made new friends happy

22:02

forgive sins he melts away as well

22:04

so soon as he is very much

22:06

in that world of avast hostility and

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22:46

tournament money who cicero said that money

22:48

users who use rooms hum fans who

22:50

they go for the soon use when

22:52

they get the money. This massive massive

22:54

treasure said it wasn't just a sex

22:56

toy reason we grabbed them a little

22:59

below two other not limited to develop

23:01

yeah let me be more specific. run

23:03

to the beginning of the war and

23:05

think this is twenty use. Which

23:08

is nice time for many people

23:10

generation the scene and assembly having

23:13

decided to go to war to

23:15

resist. As they saw it on

23:17

the spot attack on them Spartans

23:20

costs and the Athenians for starting

23:22

at so both of them claim

23:24

to be a not responsible for

23:26

the outbreak of the all the

23:28

seen. Some be set aside a

23:31

huge sum of money One thousand

23:33

tons of silva which is the

23:35

equivalent of the in. Revenue

23:38

of the scene in states

23:40

from both internal and external

23:43

sources and that was not

23:45

be touched. Until and unless

23:47

the Athenians were absolutely on,

23:49

there appears that they would

23:51

one thing to continue to

23:53

fight be unable to fight

23:55

unless they released this one

23:57

thousand town. Well now who

23:59

looked after that physically one

24:01

thousand tons it was in

24:04

the in the past not.

24:06

but the priestess who actually

24:08

was responsible for it to

24:10

the Athenian state was this

24:12

We pants nice He must

24:14

he who have been away

24:16

with priestess high priestess the

24:18

sixty four years or so

24:20

later. So so so. Very

24:22

direct relationship between the decision

24:24

of the Athenians in sports

24:26

Well which is the year

24:28

before the my sister's. Perform

24:30

so when as the loses thinking

24:33

about writing and the decision to

24:35

release to tarts that I'm reserve

24:37

which was then turned both into

24:39

silver coinage to pay sailors with

24:42

and other soldiers but also to

24:44

strike a very very rare gold

24:46

coin of in everything is as

24:48

it were up the spout it's

24:51

all going wrong and for twelve

24:53

for eleven when this place for

24:55

dong and then not very long

24:57

after this place there is a

25:00

genuine cool I mean an anti

25:02

democrat cool a really nasty once

25:04

and so or something may or

25:06

may not have had his finger

25:09

on the pulse you know he

25:11

might have since in the wind

25:13

and certainly the were extreme right

25:16

wingers who'd been dying for the

25:18

he Athenian democracy is be ended

25:20

because they saw it is inimical

25:22

to them but there is one

25:25

very specific relevance of all that

25:27

sweetener uncommon to it is among

25:29

the emergency. Measures as well as

25:31

allowing themselves to touch the

25:33

on reserve. They appointed a

25:35

special counsel and which is

25:38

very very only got kick

25:40

thing to do Not a

25:42

democratic Things Ten men including

25:44

the poet Sophocles. We only

25:46

know the names of two

25:48

of them and one character

25:50

in the Lysis to as

25:52

my comrades and well no

25:54

is a representative of that

25:56

bodies cool. The problem sometimes

25:58

translates magistrates but lit. Let's

26:00

of for deliberate a pre

26:02

counselor Very spot and so

26:04

Athens is in turmoil anyway.

26:06

the real Athens when this

26:08

plays conceived and then put

26:11

on Sarah Was he taking

26:13

a risk? I submit permissive

26:15

front of all this putting

26:17

a parallel six new world

26:19

decide what was going on.

26:21

Servos been describing is a

26:23

really interesting question and particularly

26:25

because Aristophanes loved to name

26:27

tag people he would satirize.

26:30

And name politicians who might sit in

26:32

the audience. He never got to the

26:34

audience. actors, you name it, punk poets.

26:37

Anybody who was around and yet Lysistrata

26:39

and indeed we have to. Plays of

26:41

our stuff is foreign as and Lysistrata

26:43

on the other one is called says

26:46

i'm authorities cyber uncle. It says my

26:48

source shoulders half of those existences. Lysistrata

26:51

and says most artist place a have

26:53

the least number of named. Individuals

26:55

who are satirized was a dozen and.the

26:57

Tennessee relates to what pull was saying

27:00

that in Athens is in a right

27:02

mess in they are on the verge

27:04

of having an intern or as revolution

27:06

which is what happens in the months

27:09

following the performances of lysistrata and asthma.

27:12

So within four eleven essence will

27:14

implode. Temporarily, the democracies overthrown

27:16

this from Buhler Switzer poop refer

27:18

to will Innocence take charge and

27:20

innocence writes itself again. I quickly

27:23

and goes back to democracy. So

27:25

it's so. Interesting that when we look

27:27

at Lysistrata there's a lack of these

27:29

named individuals. There's no huge attacks on

27:31

earnest of nice contemporary sick is pretty

27:33

political and so clear to buy this

27:35

from. was deceased but clam with analysis

27:38

of or stuff in his his earliest

27:40

plays the on with a demagogue someone

27:42

who spoke for the people in that

27:44

sense also he claimed and Aristophanes loved

27:46

to rip anything he could us of

27:48

play on and tell him to shreds.

27:50

He cast him as a as a

27:52

slave Catholic on slaves and a play

27:54

called nights where he slave. To the

27:56

people the most who is his most a

27:59

quite. Literally. I'm in our stuff and

28:01

is. wasps. Play On is presented as

28:03

a downright dog to his own trial

28:05

and is prosecuting another dog the stealing

28:07

Sicilian she's so he can. He can

28:09

really go for people by name. he

28:11

can extensively centralized them for eleven. None

28:13

of it. And yet the general theme,

28:16

some idea of hey Athens, let's come

28:18

to a point of peace is a

28:20

massive thing to be doing. Because what

28:22

for Eleven were twenty is there about

28:24

since the Peloponnesian War? If you think

28:26

of it a starting in four, three

28:28

one maybe some Athena suffered enough. And

28:31

yet others will want to continue to make

28:33

sure that Athens and democracy on not jeopardized

28:35

in some way which might happen with Sparta.

28:37

Can I come to tude James

28:39

Jones Robson to sort of developers

28:42

who speaks Astonishes Working on two

28:44

levels is quite conservative and is

28:46

very subversive. Absolutely so. A Sarah

28:48

has been outlining Old Comedy has

28:50

subversion at it's very hard and

28:52

that that writ large and the

28:54

place of a half of our

28:57

companies from the for twenties from

28:59

his early career and I think

29:01

the has subversiveness going on and

29:03

this play as well as far

29:05

as outlines what's avoided. Odd direct.

29:08

Attacks on politicians we get a few

29:10

name checked in passing. Rather we get

29:12

criticisms of the democracy as whole or

29:14

of the the the kind of political

29:17

decision making that the code on it

29:19

and my sister's particularly keen on criticizing

29:21

the kind of decision making that goes

29:24

on in the assembly. Well.

29:26

I think the play could be said

29:28

to be subversive is in very much

29:30

in the tradition of old comedy, to

29:33

which is that you sees a scene

29:35

which perhaps a social issue which the

29:37

audience might feel a little uncomfortable about.

29:40

I think gender is potentially one of

29:42

those issues at this moment in time.

29:44

So we have this disastrous war going

29:46

on for twenty years, but also have

29:49

the Sicilian expedition and and complete and

29:51

utter disaster in for had seen yes

29:53

O S at the The Athenians Lost.

29:56

Thousands upon thousands of men in Sicily,

29:58

so that must have skewed. The democracy

30:00

in essence, considerably especially when you take

30:02

into account the men are away from

30:04

still hangs as well. We know from

30:06

later sources this women at this point

30:08

may have been doing jobs and task

30:11

or they wouldn't says done beforehand say

30:13

middle class for national having to go

30:15

out and work. For example, presumably women

30:17

were effectively in charge of households perhaps

30:19

in a way that they hadn't been

30:21

before as well and presumably to have

30:23

women are city He really had nothing

30:25

more to lose at this point Of

30:27

that last, husbands and Sons and the

30:29

war. So I think what is

30:32

happening is that women are being seen

30:34

in public. More, they've got more of

30:36

a public voice and perhaps even some

30:38

of them have made herself quite difficult.

30:40

and say, Aristophanes in this play is

30:42

really sticking the needle in a better

30:44

same What if this got even worse?

30:46

What if women actually took over and

30:48

and so I think he's whining his

30:50

audience out to a certain extent there,

30:52

but the counterbalance status of division that

30:54

the women are working towards as extraordinarily

30:56

conservative. So at the end of the

30:58

play, the idea of bringing. Your husband's

31:00

home as that he can once again take

31:02

charge of the household you will be. There

31:05

is a provider of care for him and

31:07

his children. You will see the domestic chores

31:09

and that those were vote to lot during

31:11

a place idea of weaving for example which

31:13

is a constant seen try to play. And.

31:16

You'll you'll also have that sexual

31:18

relationship with your with your husband.

31:21

As will say that divisions that

31:23

ultimately that to play projects is

31:25

very much back to the past

31:27

back to the traditional ways as

31:30

of doing things for which is

31:32

the seventies Targets hit home most

31:34

tellingly isn't realizes in general because

31:37

it's was have some muslims mom

31:39

says well I'm piece is the

31:41

one home it's the he wrote

31:44

three Surviving Peace Place he wrote.

31:46

An three Women and licensed as

31:49

one where the to come together

31:51

sites depending on whether you think

31:53

as James the suggested, he was

31:56

conservative and he might have been

31:58

anxious about the possibility. Women

32:00

being a little too forward and

32:02

actually demand some sort of from

32:04

say in ways that they would

32:07

typically forbidden to have unless they

32:09

happen to be the chief priests

32:11

tests of this thing and state.

32:13

Or there is another priestess hood

32:16

which was more democratic one the

32:18

Athena of the city priestess hood

32:20

is an an aristocratic one so

32:22

it's by he reddit he by

32:24

birth whereas the other one in

32:27

favor of fum victory a thing

32:29

or a victory. The pistons

32:31

were chosen by lot and one

32:33

of them happens to be cool

32:35

Marini which is the name given

32:37

as Sarah stars is a fun

32:40

thing to one of the other

32:42

two women kind to the scene

32:44

and women came to the unless

32:46

has to So I think some

32:48

some people have on the one

32:50

hand detected a certain feminists in

32:52

Aristophanes meaning a sort of suggest

32:54

and look I sisters pretty competent,

32:56

scarce. Okay the women other than

32:58

that this stereotypically thanks. Man and

33:01

drunkards put the were more

33:03

women like my sister. Would

33:05

we be able to continue

33:07

to say all the scene

33:09

in women are stupid and

33:11

and drunken and six Madison

33:13

and then what are the

33:15

targets? Well I'm in a

33:17

way democracy because. There

33:20

is a very strong. It's

33:22

typically an oligarchic standpoint though

33:24

already some people were putting

33:26

it forward to back in

33:28

the for twenties. You know

33:30

the democracy is not a

33:32

bad idea that isn't tons

33:34

of equality and freedom, but

33:37

boy doesn't make mistakes. And

33:39

when it make mistakes dreadful

33:41

mistakes whereas you can see

33:43

Ago as well for example,

33:45

and going to assist is

33:47

the most obvious ones. so

33:49

he's targeting those seen in

33:51

ordinary thing is who think

33:53

the war is a good

33:56

thing as such and that

33:58

it's fairly easily winnable. It

34:00

is and it's going to greens and

34:02

all sorts of changes bound to come

34:04

about. If you are little to rush

34:07

thank you sir can you can you

34:09

pick out a point where were we

34:11

we get a clear idea of i

34:14

have the skills as a plan was

34:16

when I mentioned to his use of

34:18

the names of beginning to play and

34:21

he's very much a wordsmith. One thing

34:23

that he does supremely well. Is innocent

34:25

words. We know that if you think of

34:27

our stuff nice play birds. The word cloud.

34:30

Cuckoo Land Cloud Cuckoo Build that we

34:32

still use and in English and comes

34:34

from Aristophanes play which is the city

34:36

that was created in the clouds. In

34:39

their midst of his boots and lysistrata

34:41

he has a a lovely go crazy

34:43

whole lines at a single single words

34:45

so when numb the problem the magistrate

34:47

is there and he's trying to arrest

34:49

Lysistrata and we got physical violence and

34:51

action going on state. Lysistrata Cool

34:54

without cries out to her

34:56

com raids she calls them

34:58

what is Oxo Mccoy? Good

35:00

night His own my ally

35:02

women And then he Lysistrata.

35:04

Addresses them and they these long com

35:07

from was that fill whole lines and

35:09

are one of them goes oh spared

35:11

my god I you're lucky for lack

35:13

of poli days which means seat of

35:15

the hydra suit seller, vegetable seller women

35:18

and that's one of the sort of

35:20

noble calling upon someone title as of

35:22

the rhythm that something quite solemn and

35:24

then she follows up with another one

35:27

and she says oh scott. It opened

35:29

a cute three out the poll. It

35:31

sort of as a one line was

35:33

and that will means oh garlicky landlady.

35:36

Of and bread seller women. So at

35:38

that moment of crisis and battle she

35:40

calls on these characters use these long

35:43

wait. And these names and that completely

35:45

made up their just comic titles in a minute

35:47

make us laugh. but they would appeal to the

35:49

Athenians because there's that sense that this is like

35:51

com a battle it's about to begin on as

35:53

was one thing is not been mentioned as this

35:55

one very important battle between men and. Women

35:57

mystically that took place in.

36:00

Athens and that is between the Amazons

36:02

and the Athenians ya author at that

36:04

time to things where the what is

36:06

the a divisional humor which I just

36:08

think he has so much potential in

36:10

my sister territory. It's interesting seeing modern

36:12

productions of the play because you realize

36:14

how much room there is to visual

36:16

humor and said that the battle of

36:18

the Old Men with the old women

36:20

at the beginning for example in the

36:22

men Miss Handle that's logs and there's

36:24

smoke For example the to Smoke in

36:26

their I Target Downs with water which

36:28

is within reminded of Twice More. In

36:30

a saxophone actually this is meant to be

36:32

comic highlighted the place I've We've already talked

36:34

about these comics palaces as well and men

36:37

later on in the player holding that clicks

36:39

away from them midriffs because they would they

36:41

want to show that they have these form

36:43

an erection for example. side is lots of

36:45

great some visual humor than and the other

36:47

photos gonna make was about zebra entendre. So

36:50

yes we do get these direct references to

36:52

the scatological and sexual realm is of cynicism

36:54

in the play for he also really reached

36:56

the wrong to undress thera sort of too

36:58

many to mention anyway but. Sam towards the

37:01

end of the play for example with their

37:03

course I'm making fun of the Spartans delicate

37:05

sang over things have really hard and badly

37:07

and in Sparta us and I'm his father

37:09

says oh yeah thought my comrades are looking

37:11

for us rostock country and says there are

37:13

there are myriad jokes like that in the

37:15

and end up in the players losses great

37:18

great great the wrong time as and great

37:20

breaks, health checks and just coming on that

37:22

they did a long time to throw sensational.

37:24

So in that sense when you have the

37:26

women holding the Acropolis in keeping the gate

37:28

south and the men are attacking. With that

37:30

long something that's very slick. Image in

37:32

itself. and they're trying to break down the Acropolis

37:34

door to get in in. the women will not

37:36

let them in. So the visual metaphor. Is the

37:38

kind of sexual play is all the way

37:41

that while you're watching the play happening and

37:43

that sony at the end when we get

37:45

sort of resolution and reconciliation that sex lives

37:47

well many women come together again so it

37:49

kind of is played out as a visual

37:52

joke as well as the though the one

37:54

that James reasons to renew their node pool

37:56

Sea Urchin tools in moves towards peace. Who

37:58

sentiment could you tell. Or

38:01

to be going on. This might be

38:03

surprised us over the only time could

38:05

you tell people are he didn't move

38:08

towards a peaceful settlement. What does this

38:10

or certain ones? I say that it's

38:12

not necessarily peaceful between men and women

38:15

and Athens or anywhere else in Greece

38:17

but some it is putting Sparta and

38:19

it's allies and Athens and it's as

38:21

they deserve a key or they had

38:24

made truth before. Just about winner stuff.

38:26

Nice. Was born free for four five

38:28

so it's not an example. They

38:30

made a second one in

38:32

four to one which is

38:34

only ten years before. so

38:36

the very fact of making

38:38

a real peace isn't aren't

38:40

in itself. it's how this

38:42

particular piece has brought about

38:44

through sexual incontinence and through

38:46

an occupying the acropolis which

38:48

is close. Very exceptional but

38:50

the point of the ending

38:52

i think it is and

38:54

the scissors of needs some

38:56

possibly at his best in

38:59

some way is that it's

39:01

a very lyrical and it

39:03

is religious and it's him

39:05

know and so events on

39:07

prayers too many many gods

39:09

not just some Athena or

39:11

because ironically and away the

39:13

chief god of the Spartans

39:15

was also and Athena of

39:17

the city for the two

39:19

of them have the same

39:21

Athena as the chief god

39:23

and the concluding vs are

39:25

indeed a him to mainly

39:27

on the spot as opposed

39:29

to the female. And

39:31

goddess and this reference to

39:33

the wrote us the banks

39:35

of the roses blow through

39:38

ancient spot us and the

39:40

whole thing ends as all

39:42

of i think again saying

39:45

or his piece play is

39:47

and with happy joyous religious

39:49

ritual resolution. Sarah

39:51

Woods or that if you're supposed to they

39:53

put it on today would have the challenges.

39:56

They are many I think or James said earlier

39:58

to that level of that. I

40:01

know many people is put on. Place of

40:03

talked about having to turn it down

40:05

so we go to some of the

40:07

earliest recorded Surgeons of Lysistrata. So back

40:09

to the early twentieth century performance of

40:11

the play with used as part of

40:13

the pushed to get women the vote

40:15

and it had to be heavily cut

40:17

down in terms of the sexual content

40:20

under sort of graphic humor just to

40:22

make it palatable but not continues through

40:24

in sort of many contemporary production. So

40:26

yeah turning down the graphic humor and

40:28

indeed of course we mentioned early. The

40:30

all the parts who played by men originally

40:32

above the men and women. In

40:34

the play and Aristophanes play would have

40:37

been male only performers. under isn't the

40:39

way most players go now and it

40:41

changes the dynamic completely in terms of

40:43

when you're thinking of contemporary debates or

40:45

and tenderness. I'm an Islamic cetera. So

40:47

we have productions done by many tie

40:49

Wrightson in the Uk. So Peter. Hold

40:51

it in production. two main grid. Were

40:53

out of ocean by Morrison. So we

40:56

have all these different. Productions that

40:58

are having to grapple with those kinds

41:00

of seems. But in not sense then I

41:02

think most the joy in the power of.

41:04

Our stuff, nieces, And.

41:08

Has changed and twisted uninterrupted away

41:10

from are still funny so that

41:12

it doesn't have to be. A

41:15

majority of jokes about penises. it's

41:17

an. Open up to other things and

41:19

once those words of being spoken by

41:21

see might as and films as well

41:23

as a new power to and james

41:25

would you think the status of the

41:27

players today I think as Sarah's brain

41:29

science actually quite so. Challenging place to

41:31

stage if you look at the performances

41:33

throughout the twentieth century there's a real

41:36

peak in the sixties or seventies around

41:38

the through the Vietnam war and particular

41:40

was popular play than in the nineties

41:42

in two thousand says well I think

41:44

when those obscenity some more palatable to

41:46

us and also people. Wanting to talk

41:48

about gender but as a whole

41:50

history and that and twentieth centuries

41:52

English speaking world of the play

41:54

being used to push the boundaries

41:56

of this acceptability About About dialogue

41:58

about Sacks about Proto. About Pacifism

42:00

About Feminism t I think it's

42:02

a awkward play today in many

42:05

ways, however, it's noticeable. that's eyes

42:07

on you. Haven't seen any productions

42:09

in the last few years and

42:11

so I think perhaps post me

42:13

too I think posts that way

42:15

that we regards Jens and now

42:17

not as a binary opposition, but

42:19

something is more complex. The play

42:21

ends up being a lot more

42:23

complicated because the idea that women

42:25

stay at home and the men

42:27

go out and sites and that

42:29

it's women. Pitched against Men in that

42:31

way is to imaging and also the

42:33

way in which the play conceptualize is

42:35

more as well I think doesn't quite

42:37

time with the way the model conflicts

42:39

are afoot. I think it's an amazing

42:41

sight used for students. My Decent Guy

42:43

has three the status of a of

42:45

a classic. I would say that my

42:48

sister's probably been staged, not just more

42:50

than any other Arsenic play in English

42:52

speaking well, the probably more than all

42:54

of them all the rest of them

42:56

put together. So I do think it's

42:58

an absolute demands of the comic canon.

43:00

And we have relatively few of

43:02

Giants compared with say tragedy last

43:04

word from Verizon element in the

43:06

original which is very serious and

43:09

that's part of the humor. I

43:11

think that this title character season

43:13

A in woman she's not anything

43:15

grounds My on the other hand

43:17

see smart and see uses words

43:19

burning Man then that would have

43:21

given the audience pause. I think

43:24

who thank you very much you

43:26

new Tech Support college soccer moms

43:28

and James Robson into a suitor

43:30

and you knew Steve Greenwood. Next

43:32

week is Napoleon's hundred days escape

43:34

from Elba, much to Paris and

43:37

defeated Waterloo. Thanks for listening. And

43:40

the in our Time podcast. Get some

43:42

extra time now with a few minutes

43:44

of bonus material for Melvin and his

43:46

guests. The. Usual question: Pool: what

43:48

didn't you get time to say

43:50

you'd like to Suny? very very

43:52

soon as my room mates on

43:54

either side may also incredibly much

43:57

better informed anime and levels ago.

43:59

Amazing race. Cool. I was most

44:01

impressed by that's and without a

44:03

note in front of the month.

44:05

very important But one thing towards

44:07

the end zone Sarah right, he

44:09

brought up the Amazon Me we

44:12

suppose has a very specific Athenian

44:14

dimensions are many other versions of

44:16

as Amazon myth. but if you'd

44:18

gone up on to the Acropolis

44:20

as one does only for religious

44:22

purposes to take part in for

44:24

example the Great Palmer for know

44:26

every four years in honor of

44:28

Athena of the City. Then

44:31

you would see the person on

44:33

and a one range of the

44:35

Parthenon The was called Met a

44:38

piece on Met Hopes and they

44:40

depicts the battle indeed of the

44:42

scenes and the amazons and amazon's.

44:45

they're not just women, it's not

44:47

only men against women or entirely

44:49

mortal against these. Funny is

44:52

sort of mortals that it's also

44:54

east and west and so Amazon's

44:56

come from somewhere in the Black

44:58

Sea and therefore farmlands to be

45:01

as it were oriental. That's putting

45:03

it strong me. But the Persian

45:05

Empire extended rights as far as

45:07

the Black Sea and up to

45:10

the Indians. so the Amazons their

45:12

home. On the sermon Don River

45:14

is within the Pose Nampa, so

45:16

it was a way of saying

45:19

we Greeks, we Athenian smashed you.

45:21

Persians now that was in

45:23

the for forty four thirties

45:25

Him for eleven. the Spartans

45:27

have been negotiate with a

45:29

passions and they've won. They've

45:31

persuaded the Persians to come

45:33

in on their size. that

45:36

actually tip the balance is

45:38

will ultimately won the Spartans

45:40

the war. The Athenians continue

45:42

to fight and they won't

45:44

victories. They refuse to make

45:46

peace twice for insisting they

45:48

me to. After that we've

45:50

got these. peace plays the

45:52

athenians in real life that offered

45:54

piece by sparta missing say no

45:57

because they don't like the conditions

45:59

of peace that they're being offered.

46:01

And so eventually, Sparta

46:03

with Persian money totally

46:05

defeat the Athenians so that it's

46:08

a total victory and the Spartans

46:11

are able to impose on the

46:13

Athenians whatever terms they wish and

46:16

they include imposing

46:18

a very nasty oligarchy,

46:20

30 tyrants they came

46:22

to be called, which is the

46:24

same number as the Spartans' main

46:27

probalutic council of the Gerousia, which

46:29

is by the way joked at

46:32

in the Lysistrata, Geruachia. And

46:34

the Spartans are supposed to speak a

46:36

very guttural sort of Greek and

46:39

so Aristophanes is brilliant at mimicking

46:41

not just the words but also

46:43

the accents. Sarah, what's your conclusion?

46:46

I have two things to mind. One of them is something

46:49

I would have said about Aristophanes in

46:51

general that he loves the subversive,

46:53

he loves transgressing boundaries and some

46:56

of my research works around fragments, so the little

46:58

lost bits of Aristophanes because he wrote many plays

47:00

that we don't have. And there's a

47:02

fragment, a line, we just have a line, we don't know

47:04

the play, we don't know the title but we know Aristophanes

47:07

wrote it. And the

47:09

line goes, hutos titaporeta draenesti

47:11

melli. And that line basically

47:14

means it's so much something honey

47:17

to do what is forbidden. And I

47:19

always think of that as encapsulating Aristophanes in a

47:21

nutshell, that it's honey, so honey, it's sweet, it's

47:24

the really beautiful thing that you want to better

47:26

do is to overstep the boundaries, to

47:28

say, to do what is forbidden.

47:30

So I always have that in mind, especially with Lysistrata,

47:32

for all that it can be seen

47:34

as conservative in some ways in that

47:36

connection to pushing for peace, perhaps pro-Oligarchic

47:38

potentially. But yet the other side there

47:41

is something that really pushes the other

47:43

way. And I always think that that's

47:45

the bit that would be appealing to the audience because of

47:47

course what we have to remember is the audience is

47:49

going to be made up of Athenians who might be

47:51

on either side, they might be pro-peace, they might be

47:53

pro-war. And if you want to win a prize in

47:55

a competition, how are you going to appeal to the

47:57

whole of the audience well? play

48:00

to those things that speak to people, that

48:02

idea of it's fun isn't it, sometimes to

48:04

overstep the boundary. And of course also the

48:06

core message of Lysis Drata, which is let's

48:09

all just come together and have sex, and

48:11

everything else will sort itself out. And that

48:13

idea of appealing on that level of the

48:15

lowest sort of, you know, urges and human

48:18

sort of feelings to bring people together. And

48:20

that's what Aristophanes manages to do. What's

48:22

your name's about you? Yeah, similarly I was

48:25

going to stress the peace theme as well

48:27

and I think Sarah put it really neatly

48:30

there. So the play

48:32

is easily read as a play which

48:34

is advocating peace. But

48:36

I wonder whether that's a bit of a lazy

48:38

reading. I mean the peace

48:40

that is agreed in the play is

48:42

an utter fantasy. I mean the terms

48:44

that the two sides come to, they're

48:46

very advantageous to the Athenians, the Spartans,

48:48

they're really keen to make peace despite

48:50

the fact that in the actual war at

48:53

the time they held the upper

48:55

hand. And the Athenians are really clinging on.

48:57

So it's a complete utter fantasy. But

49:00

combined with that we have

49:02

the way that Sparta is portrayed in

49:04

the play that we haven't really spoken

49:06

about and I thought might be Paul's

49:09

shtick here. It's so fascinating because the

49:11

Spartans are essentially treated really positively in

49:13

the play. At the end we've talked

49:15

about the ending of the play and

49:17

we get Spartan song and Spartan dance,

49:19

we get this hymn in praise of

49:22

Sparta and all the key elements

49:24

of Sparta mentioned, the mountain, Mount Thagetas,

49:26

the river Erotus that Paul was talking

49:28

about, Helen of Sparta of course who

49:30

became Helen of Troy, but Sparta is

49:33

famous for its beautiful women. We have

49:35

Lampetto at the beginning, the Spartan woman

49:37

who's physically fit, pretty alluring as well

49:40

and she's actually praised by the other

49:42

women for being beautiful. And then we

49:44

have this bizarre, just off the scale

49:46

bizarre rewriting of

49:49

Greek history by Lysistrata as well. When

49:51

the two sides are together and they're

49:53

agreeing peace terms she says, don't you remember all of

49:55

those times when we cooperated with each other in the

49:57

past when Athens the Sparta did amazing things to you?

50:00

weren't they good? And one of the

50:02

examples she mentions for example is the

50:05

series of events following the earthquake in Sparta in

50:07

464 BCE when the the

50:12

surf population of Sparta rose

50:14

up and the Athenians a couple of years

50:16

later we think probably 462 BCE

50:19

were dispatched under the leadership

50:21

of a general called Chaimon.

50:23

Now he turned up, the

50:26

Athenian troops were accused of

50:28

being suspected of being too

50:30

well disposed towards the surf. Who are

50:32

great. And then the

50:34

Athenians are sent home under Chaimon

50:37

and the Athenians are so disgusted

50:39

at what happened as they sent him into exile. So

50:42

the idea of using this as an example of cooperation

50:44

between the two city-states is ludicrous and

50:47

we have other examples of that too.

50:49

So it's very odd that we have

50:51

this positive image given of Sparta, we

50:53

talked about this Spartan dialect which is

50:55

actually portrayed very accurately.

50:57

There are no opportunities taken to really to make

50:59

fun of the way that they talk, it's just

51:02

a quite accurate portrayal

51:04

of Spartan dialect. And so

51:06

what's going on there? How can you do that

51:08

in times of war to an

51:10

audience? And yes it's all very

51:12

well as you see if you see it

51:14

as fantasy and so it doesn't really have

51:16

any purchase in the real world. But given

51:19

how careful Aristophanes has been to avoid name-checking

51:21

anyone in the city as we said earlier,

51:24

why risk portraying Sparta in that life? And I don't

51:26

have an answer for that question, I think it's a

51:28

really fascinating puzzle that the play leaves us with. A

51:32

friend of mine wrote an article called

51:34

La Comica and he looked

51:36

at absolutely every extant reference in

51:39

Aristophanes to anything Spartan.

51:41

Laconic is an adjective from

51:43

Spartan and concluded

51:45

that he was very soft on

51:48

Sparta in terms of humour but

51:50

then we could add he was

51:52

also very soft on rich people

51:54

as such and he's much

51:56

nastier to as you one of you

51:59

said the politician. who were

52:01

populist, they appealed to the masses, that

52:03

is the poor. Most

52:05

Athenians were poor. And so

52:08

Aristophanes doesn't like politicians whose

52:11

careers depend on them appealing to

52:13

the poor masses, which is what?

52:15

It's one definition of democracy. It

52:18

is the rule of the masses

52:20

over the elite. And

52:22

there we go. Aristophanes loves to overstep and test

52:24

and push. So that questioning of democracy, is it

52:26

right? Have we got it right? We've been in

52:28

war 20 years. The play opens up

52:31

all those questions. And as you say, he lets

52:33

the Spartans off the hook in terms of dialect.

52:35

They're not mocked for that. However, the Boetians, I

52:37

won't start on that because it's the end, but

52:39

Boetian dialect is mocked again and again in comedy

52:42

and Aristophanic comedy. So you can go for people

52:44

by accent. But he doesn't, or dialect

52:46

I should say. What do you say his Aristophanes

52:48

conclusion was about democracy? Is this

52:51

something he admires or something he

52:53

wants? I would

52:55

not sit on the fence, but I imagine you

52:57

wouldn't like the answer. I'd say he's always

52:59

opening up the debate and he'll be presenting

53:01

the different sides because it's how you get

53:03

a conversation going with this.

53:05

It's a democracy. These men who sit on

53:08

the side of the hill, as I say,

53:10

predominantly men in the theater of Dionysus are

53:12

the ones who potentially will go to the

53:14

Eclairsia and hear the motions being put

53:16

forward by the Boulay and the Pro-Boulos, or

53:19

the Pro-Boulay, I should say, and they will make

53:21

decisions. So in all the distorted, comic, ogley-fied,

53:24

extreme world of comedy, you're

53:26

getting these messages put across

53:29

which then come out of the

53:31

theater, step out of the festival, back to reality. But

53:34

then they're going to go sit in another

53:36

outdoor environment and listen and talk on these

53:38

motions. So putting all those ideas there, I

53:40

think is something that Aristophanes has always got in mind

53:43

as an ability. He is part of the democratic machinery

53:45

in the end. He's able

53:47

to put his plays on because Athens

53:50

functions as it does. So there's

53:52

all that complexity. He does write at

53:54

least a couple of plays actually about

53:56

democracy and about key features

53:58

of it. For example, the jury. courts in

54:01

the wasps or the system

54:03

of having leaders who are populists

54:05

such as Cleon in the Knights

54:08

and then one play which I don't think we've mentioned

54:10

have we the it's called

54:12

literally women celebrating or

54:15

holding an ecclesia which means an

54:17

assembly meeting which of course is

54:19

a contradiction it's absolutely impossible and

54:22

this is we think about 20 years

54:24

after Lycys Jesus so three nine two

54:27

three nine one that sort of thing

54:29

well there everything goes absolutely haywire

54:31

they first of all pack

54:33

the assembly so that's illicit

54:35

if not illegal then

54:38

having gained control of the

54:40

organs of government they transform

54:42

the Athenian state into a

54:45

communalist or communist utopia i.e.

54:48

dystopia and the big focus is

54:50

on sexual availability I find it

54:52

a quite unpleasantly nasty

54:54

play and one wonders whether it

54:56

was actually thought to be that

54:59

funny or why the people

55:01

who copied Aristophanes plays thought it was

55:03

worth copying it because the

55:06

reason we've got the 11 is

55:08

that they were the ones that

55:10

kept on being copied whether or

55:12

not performed so that it becomes

55:15

part of the tradition of Greek

55:17

comic theatre which the Romans inherit

55:19

and then pass on to the

55:21

Renaissance and so on and

55:23

I think Lycys de Tous the second least copied

55:25

play we have eight manuscripts of Lycys de Tous

55:28

only compared to 150 of wealth which people don't

55:32

tend to be mad about that

55:36

was a rewritten wealth as well I

55:38

mean interestingly he'd written another play and

55:40

then he rewrites and one thing that

55:42

the clouds that we have is actually

55:44

a rewritten version that was never performed

55:48

here's our producer Simon send

55:50

a want to your copy I'll have a

55:52

tea please thanks three teas? no

55:56

not for me thanks thank you very much BBC

56:00

Studios Audio Production. I'm

56:03

Helena Bonham Carter, and for BBC

56:05

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