0:00

Hello , you're listening to Into Liberation

0:03

, a podcast about transformative change

0:05

, equity and working against oppression

0:07

. I'm Leena Akhtar , director

0:09

of Programs with Visions Inc . Welcome

0:11

, hi , everyone . I'm

0:18

excited today to introduce you to Dr Haley

0:21

Sparks , the Director of VISIONS' Mental

0:23

Health Program . As some of you

0:25

may know , the Visions model has deep roots

0:27

in 20th century Libertory Social

0:29

Psychology , which , in my humble opinion

0:31

, is really our secret sauce . Haley

0:33

and I talk a little about that here and you'll

0:36

hear more in upcoming episodes as we delve

0:38

deeper into the stories of our founders and elders

0:40

. In honor of 2024 being Visions'

0:42

40th year of existence , I

0:45

always love speaking and collaborating with Haley

0:47

. In this episode , she talks about how

0:49

she came to Visions and the work , about our mental

0:51

health program and the importance of anti-oppression

0:53

approaches to mental health coaching , and

0:55

about the workshop she's offering in April at the Visions'

0:58

2024 Spring Summit . The

1:00

theme this year is Trauma-Informed Approaches

1:02

to Sustaining DEI , social Justice

1:04

and Anti-Oppression Work . Haley

1:06

will be offering a workshop on the importance of

1:09

rest and what the seven different types of

1:11

fatigue and corresponding types of rest are

1:13

. The goal of this summit is to offer

1:15

people concrete strategies for staying in

1:17

the work without burning out , and we'll be leaning

1:19

heavily into our roots with clinical work . For that I'm

1:22

also excited to confirm that one of our headline

1:24

speakers is Dr Gabor Mate , who'll

1:27

be speaking about compassion , fatigue and burnout

1:29

. Stay tuned for details and

1:31

we're recording . I'm super excited

1:34

to be today with Dr Haley Sparks

1:36

, the director of Visions' Mental Health Program

1:38

, and so many other things . I

1:41

have a lot of respect and admiration

1:43

for Dr Sparks and her work

1:45

. Welcome , haley .

1:47

Thank you , Leena . I'm very , very

1:49

happy to be here . I'm

1:51

happy to talk about some of

1:53

the work that I'm doing with Visions

1:55

. I'm excited to talk about the mental health

1:58

program and I'm here

2:00

to talk about where I

2:02

hope to see this work going

2:05

broadly . I'm really happy to

2:07

be here and talking about how

2:09

we can sustain ourselves in the work . Beautiful

2:11

.

2:12

So , before we get started , haley , would you introduce

2:14

yourself to people who aren't familiar ?

2:16

with you , sure , hi everyone

2:18

. I'm Dr Haley Sparks

2:20

. I got my PhD

2:23

in my Masters of Social Work

2:25

at the University of Michigan

2:27

. My doctorate is in

2:29

personality psychology

2:32

, in personality and social

2:34

context . I think those

2:36

studies really inform all

2:38

of the work that I do . As you

2:40

said , I am the director of

2:43

the mental health program here

2:45

with Visions . I'm also the director

2:47

of equity , diversity and inclusion

2:50

in external affairs at UCLA . I

2:52

see the work all melding

2:55

together . I am a clinician

2:57

by training , so through my Masters

2:59

of Social Work I was able

3:01

to practice therapy with

3:03

individuals , couples , groups

3:06

and families . And

3:09

UCLA . I always

3:11

say , basically in a nutshell , I work

3:13

with staff over at UCLA , external

3:15

affairs and is everything

3:18

outside of the university . So

3:20

development , folks who raise money for the university

3:23

, advancement services , folks who manage

3:25

said money once it's raised , alumni

3:28

affairs and government and community relations . My

3:31

job in a nutshell is to make

3:33

sure there's a sense of belonging . So really , my

3:35

work at Visions really

3:37

beautifully , in my opinion , overlaps

3:39

with my work at UCLA , where

3:42

I'm trying to think as

3:44

deeply as possible about

3:46

how we get to

3:49

more justice , more inclusion

3:51

, in a way that feels thorough

3:54

and deep , and I think that's

3:56

what drew me to the Visions model . We'll talk a

3:58

little bit about that in a little bit , but

4:01

I think that's what drew me to the Visions

4:03

model in the first place is just

4:06

how in depth we're going

4:08

, just how intricately

4:10

we are tying the self

4:12

we always say in Visions we're practicing

4:15

self-focus and how that

4:17

really ties into all that we do in

4:19

the DEI EDI Jedi

4:22

, what we want to call it diversity

4:24

, equity and inclusion space . So

4:26

I'm really excited about the depth

4:28

at which we're going at Visions and

4:31

where that can lead us in the future .

4:33

Beautiful . Thank you . First

4:35

off , a curiosity question . You alluded

4:37

briefly to what you wrote your

4:39

doctoral dissertation on . Tell

4:42

me a little bit more what you mean about

4:44

personality .

4:45

Oh , man , okay , Personality

4:49

At the time when I started

4:51

my doctoral program , I didn't know it

4:54

, and I love the melding

4:56

of personality and social context

4:58

, because to me , personality

5:01

is a conglomeration of

5:03

your intersecting identities

5:06

, your experiences

5:08

, your perspectives , your

5:10

motivations , your

5:13

underlying hopes and dreams

5:16

, all those things wrapped

5:18

up into what gives you this

5:20

thing that we call personality , that is

5:22

ever-changing , ever-moving

5:24

, which is both a beautiful thing and

5:27

a sticky thing , a complicated thing

5:29

at times . And really

5:31

the personality , mixed

5:34

with the social context that people are in

5:36

, is where I try to dive in when

5:38

I'm thinking about how can

5:40

we create more equitable , socially

5:43

aware , justice-focused environments

5:46

for all .

5:47

Interesting . I have many questions that

5:49

I will ask you at the time . Yes , so

5:54

you do work with UCLA

5:56

and then you're also the director of

5:58

our mental health program here at

6:00

Visions . I'm curious how you

6:02

found Visions . I don't think I know this .

6:04

Yes , yes , Okay , I love

6:06

this story . Bear

6:09

with me because it's a long story , but I very much

6:11

am a full circle type

6:13

of person . I believe in fate . I believe

6:16

when things are aligned they happen . So

6:18

I want to take us a step back and then I will

6:20

get to how I got to Visions . But

6:23

when I started my doctoral program

6:25

, I was feeling a little

6:27

bit not entirely

6:30

fulfilled with the work

6:32

that's going on . And I will always say pacing

6:34

is something that I kind of struggle with . That

6:37

is because I want to see change

6:39

done yesterday . So at times

6:41

when I was kind of trudging through the process

6:44

that is research , I was

6:46

feeling at times like , okay , I'm not

6:48

making an impact fast enough now

6:50

, now , now , now , now , now , which is absolutely

6:52

something that I need to work on and

6:54

I have been working on for the past few years . That'll

6:57

get into my interest and rest

6:59

now when we're talking about

7:01

the work . But at the time I was like , wait

7:03

, how can I impact people in

7:05

a more tangible way right now ? So

7:08

I added my masters of social work while

7:10

I was doing doctoral program so

7:13

I could do research and also

7:15

be seeing people in real time

7:17

doing therapy . Because , like no , I want this one-on-one

7:20

or group setting where I see

7:23

change . You know , okay , somebody did their

7:25

therapy homework and they're

7:27

, you know , kind of improving their lives

7:29

or what have you , or making those shifts , making

7:31

those changes . And that was really exciting

7:33

for me , in both

7:36

the therapy room and at the University

7:38

of Michigan , though I was seeing that

7:40

there were

7:42

grave needs for DEI in

7:46

every step of the way . I think , Leena , you

7:48

and I have talked about I was doing sliding scale

7:50

therapy because I was funded

7:52

by the university so I

7:55

could afford to have people

7:57

pay me what they could afford to pay . Sometimes

7:59

it would be as low as a dollar an hour

8:01

and because I was working

8:04

with a number of folks who could afford to make as low

8:06

as a dollar an hour , it kind of resulted

8:09

in clinicians

8:12

who were more privileged in terms of their identities

8:15

, in terms of , maybe , their partners who were

8:17

able to fund them . I

8:19

was like , okay , if we're all kind

8:21

of privileged financially , we

8:23

need to be doing some real deep DEI

8:26

work so that we can

8:28

serve our clients better . And really

8:30

that deep DEI work

8:32

is what led me to visions

8:34

, All of the offerings

8:36

that I was seeing in university

8:39

or more corporate settings

8:42

. It felt to surface

8:44

level , especially as I'm going

8:46

as deep as I possibly could and being pushed

8:49

to go there in my dissertation

8:51

. At the time I was finding the

8:53

DEI space was like the trainings

8:56

that I was familiar with are being offered

8:58

. It wasn't going nearly as deep

9:00

or getting into the personality

9:03

as I wanted . And I found

9:05

myself one day talking to my oldest brother

9:07

about this . He lives in Austin

9:09

and I was like

9:11

you know , Brandon that's my brother's name , Brandon

9:13

it's not hitting for me , these

9:16

trainings are not landing for me , which is hard because

9:18

I care about this work but

9:21

it does not seem to be starting

9:23

where we need to be starting . And

9:25

he was like that's actually really interesting

9:27

. I have a friend who's on the board

9:30

of an organization who was just talking to

9:32

me about this . Said friend was on

9:34

the board of visions . He connected

9:36

me with her , who connected me to Elika

9:38

, executive director , and we

9:41

talked about similarly feeling

9:43

uninspired

9:45

and not as challenged

9:47

, not like we needed to . We

9:50

weren't going as deep . It wasn't feeling as

9:52

substantive and Elika

9:54

kind of introduced me to the

9:56

visions model and I was hooked from

9:58

day one . I was hooked . It was hard

10:00

. You know my first pace . I'm sure we'll talk

10:02

about it a little . My first pace really did encourage

10:05

me to go there in

10:07

terms of myself , my own background , my

10:09

own experiences in ways that

10:11

I hadn't found before , and it really

10:14

was kind of the missing piece to me for

10:16

DEI work .

10:18

Beautiful . I didn't realize that , so

10:20

your connection was via a board member . So

10:22

for people who are just listening to this and who

10:24

don't see you on video , as I do now , you

10:28

know you're both are coming to this from

10:30

particular . You know social

10:32

locations and I'm

10:34

curious what you're like

10:37

, what you want to share about your first pace experience

10:39

, especially given your training and background

10:41

and interests .

10:45

Almost , almost like be careful . What you wish for

10:47

, I will

10:49

say . The vision's mental

10:51

health program is almost

10:53

, excuse me , the revamped

10:56

mental health program because you know we

10:58

have to honor our history . There's a

11:00

decades long history at visions

11:02

of having clinicians offer

11:04

mental health support . So we're reviving

11:07

something that has existed for a while

11:10

in visions , but

11:12

it kind of was born

11:14

out of my first pace session and

11:16

really uncovering

11:18

things . So one of the things that

11:20

we do is called our first

11:22

encounter with difference , where

11:25

we reflect on a time

11:27

, preferably before age 10 , where

11:30

we first observe differences

11:33

between individuals . That can be between

11:35

yourself and somebody else or between two

11:37

individuals you're observing . So

11:40

for folks who are not seeing me , I'm a

11:43

cisgendered black woman

11:46

who and this

11:48

is always something that I talk about in

11:50

terms of visions offering those

11:52

are kind of more my , my

11:54

able bodied cisgendered black woman

11:57

. Those are some of my more

11:59

apparent identities and I would

12:01

say one of the identities I

12:03

first became aware of was that

12:06

I was a daughter

12:08

without a mother . So when I was six

12:10

years old my mother was killed

12:13

tragically in a car accident

12:15

and my first experience

12:17

with difference was I was in the car

12:19

accident with her and

12:22

my first encounter with difference was

12:24

coming back to school . I wasn't

12:26

second grade and coming

12:28

back to school with my peers

12:30

and , of course , being very

12:33

painfully and palpably aware

12:35

of that difference now

12:37

with my peers , you know , and especially at

12:39

age six , that's one of the first things that

12:42

people ask you know , what do your mommy and

12:44

daddy do ? And I very quickly

12:46

became aware like , oh , that is a difference

12:49

that I now have

12:51

. And I think being

12:53

in a space with folks

12:55

who were ready and

12:57

willing and prepared and

12:59

equipped to go

13:01

there with me to explore those

13:04

kinds of experiences and that's that's

13:06

one of many it

13:08

brought up a lot in me

13:10

that needed to be brought up and

13:12

made me palpably aware that at times

13:15

I feel like I'm not around folks

13:17

who are equipped to go there and

13:19

help me really dive

13:21

into how that might be impacting

13:24

how I show up in spaces , how

13:26

I interact with folks , you know

13:28

, at work , at home , et

13:30

cetera , et cetera . I think that

13:32

is frankly a

13:34

luxury that I think everybody deserves

13:36

. And that's why I am so excited

13:39

and passionate about the vision's model

13:41

, because I think I have always

13:43

felt like , wow , people can't really go

13:45

there with me , and it does feel important to

13:48

go there . And then , once again

13:50

, when I finally got the

13:52

opportunity , I also thought

13:54

it probably feels very

13:56

important to have systems within

13:59

visions put into place where

14:01

folks can have additional

14:03

support to investigate

14:06

and process these things with trained

14:09

clinicians , which is where the mental

14:12

health program comes in .

14:14

Thank you , who were your

14:16

pace one facilitators , just out of

14:18

curiosity . Yeah , that was genie

14:21

and Jabari , amazing .

14:22

Okay , yeah , it was good and

14:25

you know , of course there they're on East Coast

14:27

time and you know pace can be kind

14:29

of intense and I was in California so

14:32

I was getting up at four in the morning

14:34

, but I will

14:36

say , for those intense for

14:38

maybe five days it

14:41

felt worth it . It felt very

14:43

worth it to get up at that time

14:45

and , you know again

14:47

, to engage with folks who I

14:50

felt like were equipped

14:52

to do that type of deep Self-worth

14:55

. That I really believe is the

14:57

key to DEI . I

15:00

think it's what's gonna unlock

15:02

progress for us .

15:04

You know what you just said about people who

15:06

have the ability to go there

15:08

. I think that summarizes really

15:10

nicely what we Really

15:14

have to offer and what differentiates

15:17

our approach . It's deep

15:19

, affective capacity building

15:21

, tools for self-management

15:24

, tools for being able to contain

15:26

hard stuff , and

15:28

you and I have had conversations before in our respective

15:30

roles he was director of the mental

15:32

health program , me as director of programs About

15:35

what the potential is for

15:37

people who are confronting Certain

15:41

issues , particularly around race and

15:43

around oppression more generally , and

15:45

how Support can

15:47

be hard to find out in the world

15:49

. Not all practitioners

15:52

, for instance , are comfortable or

15:54

nor do they have the capacity to talk about it . So

15:56

you know we both have strong feelings and

15:58

impossibly experiences around this . I certainly

16:00

do , and I'm curious how you're

16:02

, how you've been thinking about it , right and

16:04

and and maybe this is a good

16:07

point to Seg to

16:09

what is the mental health program ?

16:10

Yeah , well , okay , we can start with

16:12

the mental health program and why

16:14

. I think it speaks to

16:17

some of the potential challenges that

16:19

you Are alluding to

16:21

. So the revamped mental

16:23

health program here at visions is

16:26

really an opportunity

16:28

for current and potentially

16:30

new clients to engage

16:33

with our clinicians in a

16:35

coaching model To

16:38

gain additional support

16:40

as you investigate

16:43

your own personal experiences

16:45

, your own Personal biases

16:47

, your own personal perspectives and let

16:49

me be clear , we all have our biases In

16:52

a way that feels Supportive

16:55

, that feels safe to the extent

16:57

that we can ensure that of course

16:59

, we can't always Guarantee it

17:01

, I would never lie to folks that way and

17:04

in a way that feels structured

17:07

and gives folks

17:09

Really an

17:11

environment to explore things

17:14

that perhaps they had never Done

17:16

when it comes to their identities and

17:19

what might come up as they are

17:21

trying to be anti-racist

17:24

, socially justice focused folks

17:27

, because it really is . It's

17:29

hard work . When we say , do

17:31

the work , you know , especially in

17:34

the mental health of therapy context

17:37

, I think we really intentionally

17:40

frame it as labor or work , because

17:42

it's hard , it is Strenuous

17:44

and , just as you know

17:46

, it's not the same like at

17:49

times . Use you know like a Personal

17:51

trainer , just as some folks find

17:53

it really helpful to have a

17:56

personal trainer to give

17:58

you structure , to give

18:00

you ideas about how to

18:02

Move one's body

18:04

in a way that is accessible and

18:07

safe for that specific

18:10

individual in their body . That's

18:12

the same idea with the mental health program

18:14

is how can we create structure

18:18

, strategies , practices that

18:22

are specifically tailored for each

18:24

individual as they try to investigate their

18:28

own perspectives and experiences and

18:31

try to go deeper and deeper

18:33

and deeper into the ocean

18:36

? That is DEI work . So , to

18:39

Go back to your original

18:41

question about the potential challenges , which

18:43

you know , I know , we know you and I have talked about you , and I have talked

18:46

about the ordeal that is therapist

18:48

shopping At times , trying

18:50

to find the right fit , and I

18:52

don't I don't even know if we've talked about this , but

18:54

the potential power dynamics you

18:56

know . Okay , I'm looking for a therapist

18:59

. Maybe this is my first time , I

19:01

haven't done this work before , so now I don't even

19:03

know that I can even really question this

19:05

person . Maybe they've made an assumption

19:08

is necessarily correct , but they're

19:10

the expert . What do I know ? You

19:12

know , I've never been to therapy before , but or

19:14

maybe I have been to therapy before but I'm

19:16

still just kind of learning , or I'm in a

19:18

really raw spot . And

19:21

then of course it's do you even accept

19:23

my insurance ? You know there's so many

19:25

different moving pieces

19:27

when trying to find

19:30

A therapist in the first

19:32

place , let alone finding a

19:34

good fit . And what I think is really

19:36

exciting About visions

19:38

mental health program is one

19:41

that we are explicitly Acknowledging

19:44

that this work is hard . Dei

19:46

work is hard . You know , sometimes

19:48

, I think , especially in the workplace context , we

19:50

just throw folks in like , all

19:52

right , get in there , like you should want to include

19:54

your colleagues , so you should know how to do it . We

19:56

don't know how to do this work . We were never this , this

19:59

type of work was never taught to us

20:01

, it was never emphasized , it was never valued

20:03

. So we need to be starting way at

20:05

the beginning about what it even looks like to

20:07

be able to communicate with one another Effectively

20:11

, and then understand that because

20:13

we are all out of practice

20:15

or maybe we're never in practice in the first

20:17

place , it's going to be strenuous at

20:20

times and then , once

20:22

you find that maybe it was strenuous and

20:24

maybe something did come up for

20:26

you , then I think the beautiful

20:28

thing about the mental health program Is

20:31

that we have folks

20:33

, individuals , in place who

20:35

help to match you with

20:37

a mental health coach . That

20:40

could potentially be

20:42

a good match for you , you know , and of course

20:44

it's never a guarantee , but I do

20:47

think there's something very helpful

20:49

about , almost like the boutique

20:51

nature of the

20:53

program that you meet

20:56

with an individual myself I

20:58

have a intimate knowledge of

21:00

the various clinicians who are taking

21:02

on new clients and then I

21:04

will match you with someone

21:07

who I do think is a good fit . So

21:09

you don't have to do even

21:11

more of that strenuous labor . You know you're

21:13

already potentially working

21:16

through something , and so then I

21:18

help to shoulder that burden

21:20

, shoulder that labor to fit

21:22

you with somebody who I think could really

21:25

match up to what you're looking

21:27

for , what your needs are

21:29

, where you would like to focus and what

21:31

you would like to prop .

21:34

Now I should say for people who aren't super

21:36

familiar with visions or haven't been in our orbit

21:38

for a long time , we are an organization

21:40

that has deep roots in social

21:43

psychology . We are very clinician

21:45

heavy . Our model draws

21:48

on those roots and

21:50

leans heavily into what

21:52

we refer to as the affective or the emotional

21:54

component of how oppression

21:56

surrounds us , threads

21:58

itself through us , imprints itself on

22:00

us and the world around us , and

22:02

how emotionally

22:05

strenuous it can be to navigate it , and

22:07

also what kinds of things

22:10

come up as we're unpacking

22:12

the impacts of it , whatever side

22:14

of the oppression we sit on . So

22:17

the roster of clinicians that we have ranges

22:19

. We have white clinicians , we have clinicians

22:21

of color , we have a lot of queer clinicians

22:24

on staff , a lot of queer people at visions , and

22:26

I've been thinking about this for a long time . As you

22:28

know , my training is as a historian

22:31

of psychology and psychiatry and

22:33

I've been thinking about the field

22:35

and how has itself been

22:38

steeped in really oppressive structures

22:40

and how , having an explicitly

22:43

anti-oppression approach that has

22:45

been developed by people who are familiar psychologists

22:48

themselves , etc . There's

22:51

something really important and generative about that

22:53

. The two scenarios that you and I have discussed

22:55

I have experienced as a person of

22:57

color , as a person who sits in my particular

22:59

location , what a difference it

23:02

has made for me to seek

23:04

out a therapist whose identities are similar

23:06

to mine and I didn't even know until I

23:09

found that . And I've also talked to white people who

23:11

, especially in the wake of what happened in 2020

23:13

, have said I went to my therapist

23:15

and they said , oh , when they were trying

23:18

to work through feelings , the hard

23:20

feelings that came up when they were confronting

23:22

the things that this brought up , I

23:24

don't know . I've heard responses about

23:27

responses that were unhelpful 100%

23:30

.

23:30

One . I also have

23:33

heard countless stories

23:35

on both sides , certainly

23:37

among my friends of color

23:40

, you know , talking about the happy

23:42

Indian stories where , you know , I finally found

23:44

a therapist who does share some

23:46

. You know , we're never going to have an exact match , but

23:49

that's not a bad thing . You know there

23:51

are some perspectives that are not

23:53

your own or not . Your experiences

23:55

can be helpful in the therapy room and

23:58

you know it can be helpful , of course

24:00

, like I said , a sister in black woman

24:02

really helpful for me

24:04

to be able to with

24:06

a clear black

24:09

person who was a clinician

24:11

. And on the other side , you know

24:14

, lena , as you said , we do have a lot of white

24:16

clinicians who are

24:18

steeped in the anti

24:21

racism , socially justice

24:23

focused work and

24:25

they are well

24:27

versed and excited

24:29

and at the same time , humble and

24:32

ready to work with

24:34

white folks who are also

24:36

excited and

24:38

energized about doing their

24:40

own work and they

24:42

understand some of the

24:45

processes that one

24:47

might go through to try to process

24:49

these things as a white person moving

24:52

forward in this potentially

24:54

heavy , sticky feel

24:57

that we all have to go through .

24:59

It reminded me of what I've conversations

25:02

I've had with clients and other

25:04

people about why affinity

25:07

work can be so important . So

25:09

for me and

25:11

I've heard obviously a lot of people share

25:13

this the deep

25:16

, reflective , identity based work of

25:18

visions was very much an eye

25:20

opener for me , both in terms of

25:22

thinking about my historically included

25:24

identities as well as my excluded ones . When

25:28

I say that , I'm thinking about my so

25:30

called marginalized or one down identities

25:32

, the places where I spent the most mental

25:35

energy , maybe time , mental , emotional

25:37

energy . Thinking about realizing that there

25:39

were a lot of respects in which I had privilege

25:41

was an eye opener for

25:43

me . The other part is around

25:46

the work that we do with modern

25:48

oppression and what we call internalized

25:51

oppression or survival behaviors that

25:53

have stuck around , and

25:56

in that respect , being

25:58

able to do work in affinity spaces

26:00

around other people of color

26:02

, for instance , has been really

26:04

helpful , because there's painful things that

26:06

need unpacking in order to be healed

26:09

, as you say , and that's not necessarily work

26:11

that I want to do in an open group . That's

26:13

work that is better done

26:15

, held and facilitated in

26:17

a room with people of color and then , similarly

26:20

, across variables of

26:22

historically included or one up

26:24

identities and , given the time

26:26

that we live in , around white

26:28

racial identity in particular , unpacking

26:31

that is work that really

26:33

shouldn't necessarily usually shouldn't

26:36

happen in front of people of color .

26:40

There are many reasons . You know the previous

26:43

summit that we worked on

26:45

talking about getting rid

26:47

of shame in this work . You

26:50

know I look at shame as

26:52

almost like go through fields

26:54

is on , like , almost like

26:57

a literal wall at

27:00

times that I see I'll

27:02

have to , whether it be within myself or with

27:04

others , that I see myself having

27:06

to un-mental brick by brick

27:09

and by the time I get to

27:11

the last brick I'm already exhausted

27:13

and we haven't even gotten to the good

27:15

stuff inside the wall . But

27:17

shame can act as such

27:19

a barrier that I could

27:21

see really taking away

27:24

from the work that needs

27:26

to be done . And a lot of white

27:28

folks or folks who are working on their

27:30

white identity are looking

27:32

forward to doing or know that it's

27:34

very important to do . But you know

27:36

I could see if they felt on

27:38

display , you know

27:40

, in front of others , that

27:42

shame wall would come in . And

27:45

now we're focusing on taking

27:47

that down brick by brick rather than getting

27:50

to the meat of why they're

27:52

there . So I could see that being a huge

27:54

reason why you know this affinity

27:57

work can be important . In

27:59

addition to you know , of course , that visions

28:01

. We are very committed

28:03

to minimizing harm , unnecessary

28:07

where we can . And

28:09

you know that type of almost

28:11

doing that work in an amphitheater

28:14

where everybody's observing you could cause

28:16

harm to both the observer and

28:18

the observed , and that's not

28:20

something again that that feels like

28:22

another barrier that doesn't

28:24

have to be there .

28:26

And because the work is so hard and

28:28

lifelong in the first place , I

28:31

do think at this point in time we want to

28:33

minimize as many barriers

28:35

as possible so we can

28:37

get to the meat of the work for

28:40

me , certainly in my included identities

28:42

, I've always had an aha

28:45

moment when I realize that it agreed

28:47

to which my privilege

28:49

or lack of disadvantage affects

28:52

my experience , and that's not an aha

28:54

that a person who lives this

28:56

every day needs to hear about

28:58

. Which is why . Which is why

29:01

we do , which is why we do affinity work , just

29:03

to give people the space that they need to really

29:05

unpack it and show up differently , if that's

29:07

what they want . Yeah , yeah , absolutely

29:10

Beautiful . That's the mental health program

29:12

. And then I've been excited

29:14

at many points to be able to collaborate

29:16

with you . Of course we did . The summit that panel

29:18

that you presented on was wonderful . People

29:21

are still talking about it for folks who don't

29:23

know . The summit last year in 2023

29:26

, was about taking shame

29:28

out of the equation . So moving

29:30

away from uncritical

29:32

, just you know , discarding

29:34

of people and seeing

29:36

what the conditions are that people

29:39

need in order to learn and show up differently

29:41

and align with who

29:43

they want to be right align their

29:45

, their impact , with their intent . Our

29:48

2024 summit is

29:50

coming together and coalescing really

29:52

nicely and I'm excited to

29:55

collaborate with you again on this . The

29:57

topic this time around given

30:00

that 2024 is going to be an election

30:02

year , given just

30:04

everything that has

30:06

been happening over the past few years and is happening

30:09

now the topic is

30:11

about trauma informed

30:14

self care and trauma

30:16

informed community care recognizing that

30:18

care is not just

30:20

is not just an individual matter

30:22

, but really that we are parts

30:24

of a collective , and sustaining

30:26

difficult work can take intentionality

30:29

and strategy , especially now , especially

30:31

given everything that's been happening , and I think that there's

30:33

a lot of great lessons to

30:35

be learned from clinicians in

30:37

terms of how to stay engaged . So

30:39

I've invited Haley to

30:42

present a workshop and basically

30:45

said Dr Sparks , you can do whatever you want

30:47

and Haley tell us , tell us what

30:49

, what was top of heart and top of mind for you .

30:52

I clean . I love that

30:54

you described , at the

30:56

very least , where we want to be

30:58

going is making this work sustainable

31:01

. I've talked a lot , you

31:03

know , one of our visions founders

31:05

, dr Val , my mentor . I

31:08

talked with her a lot about

31:11

her trajectory in this world

31:13

in doing this work and

31:16

I talked to her a lot about the ebbs

31:18

and flows that she's seen doing

31:20

this work and the ebbs and flows she's seen in

31:22

the world and where she feels like we've

31:24

made significant progress , and at times

31:26

, also talking about warning

31:29

periods that she's had to go through

31:31

where she thought more progress

31:33

would have been made . And I won't I don't want to put more

31:36

words in her mouth and I potentially already

31:38

have , but I've been thinking

31:40

a lot , you know , in light of those

31:43

conversations with Dr Val , thinking

31:45

about how can we make

31:47

this work sustainable

31:50

for folks who

31:52

are in it . Because you know , I

31:54

look at Dr Val and I don't know what I would

31:56

have done if , 20

31:59

years ago , she'd been like you know what I'm

32:01

too tired , I'm too , I'm

32:03

too burnt out , which you know

32:05

we talked about trauma . Informed burnout

32:08

is trauma . Make make no

32:10

mistake about it . It

32:12

is the result of sustained and

32:14

acute trauma . And

32:17

right . If Dr Val had thrown

32:19

in the towel , lord knows where I would be not

32:21

not in a good spot , and

32:23

so you know , I think goodness that

32:25

somehow she has

32:27

sustained herself

32:30

and made the work sustainable

32:32

for her . And how

32:34

do we continue to

32:36

invite folks in to

32:39

do the work ? I think one of the

32:41

most ethical ways to do so

32:43

is to continue to

32:45

create sustainable models

32:47

. I'm not comfortable with

32:50

inviting somebody into

32:52

my home if it's a hellscape

32:54

in there . You know , how can

32:56

we make this work sustainable

32:59

and humane for the folks

33:01

who are already in the house and folks

33:03

who we want to invite in ? One

33:06

of the main ways I see

33:08

doing that is being intentional

33:10

about how we sow

33:12

the seeds of rest into

33:15

the work . I think one

33:17

of the biggest challenges

33:19

or barriers , I would

33:21

say , in really emphasizing

33:24

how important rest is is , at times

33:26

, I feel like , especially in some of the

33:28

western cultures I in American person

33:30

I live at least part time in America

33:33

is this hustle culture

33:35

that we see in American

33:38

, in western cultures

33:40

. That , again , if you ask me , is

33:43

very not sustainable and

33:45

I think bleeds into the workplace big

33:47

time . Or maybe it was even born in

33:49

the workplace . Let's be real . Where

33:51

, then ? Where we're in this hustle culture

33:54

? So the ideas of self care or

33:56

rest are seen as optional

33:59

, if not shameful in themselves

34:02

. And so how in the

34:04

world , how do we

34:06

help folks who are existing

34:08

in these systems where resting

34:11

is seen as something that you have to keep a

34:13

secret , or you have to avoid

34:15

as much as humanly possible

34:17

, or you should feel shame or

34:20

lesser than about ? How do

34:22

we then turn it on his head and be like

34:24

actually rest

34:26

is a very important strategy

34:29

to doing the work . That

34:31

is like the antithesis of

34:34

what so many of us have

34:36

learned about what it means

34:38

to do any work work and

34:40

rest our opposites and

34:42

so many of our heads , whether

34:45

it be conscious or subconscious

34:47

, and really in

34:49

my series or my workshop , that

34:52

is what I want to focus

34:54

on . I'm going to be deriving a lot

34:56

of what I speak about from

34:58

Dr Sondra Dalton Smith , who

35:00

talks about the seven different kinds of

35:02

rest , which I think is really brilliant

35:05

, really important , really helpful for me in terms

35:07

of how I've framed rest in my

35:09

own life . I think a lot of

35:11

times rest implies

35:14

cessation in people's heads . So

35:16

rest implies you have to stop

35:18

doing something and for a lot

35:20

of folks , yeah , probably probably need to stop

35:22

doing a lot of stuff . And we

35:25

can reframe rest to think about

35:27

what can we add to our lives that

35:29

fills us up , that replenishes

35:32

us , that restores us . So

35:35

I'm going to be talking about in defining

35:37

the seven different kinds of rest in

35:40

the corresponding seven different times of

35:42

fatigue , and helping

35:44

people determine

35:46

for themselves , in their specific

35:48

context , what intentional

35:51

, consistent rest

35:54

can look like in their lives as

35:56

they're trying to create more sustainable

35:59

ways of going at the work .

36:01

Beautiful , so I have

36:03

thought about sustaining the work ever

36:05

since I did crisis counseling working

36:08

with survivors

36:10

of interpersonal violence and I was a frontline

36:13

responder , so I would show up in the emergency

36:15

room and be a medical advocate , and

36:18

that was rough work , as you can

36:20

imagine yeah and that's

36:22

when I started thinking about strategies

36:24

for how to not burn

36:27

out , flame out , and I

36:29

learned a lot from our supervisor in that program

36:31

, and it was a combination

36:33

both of personal strategies , some

36:35

of which I still implement to the state , many

36:38

of which inform how I show up in this work

36:40

, and also she was very

36:42

smart about ensuring that us

36:44

, the group of medical advocates , were

36:47

a very close knit community . We

36:49

would socialize , we were friends . So

36:51

if it was like 7am and

36:53

I just had a very rough night in the ER , there

36:56

was a whole bunch of people I could call , not

36:58

worry about shocking them with what

37:00

I was going to say , right , and where I

37:02

could , you know , get a little bit of support and

37:04

feel connected as opposed to feeling isolated

37:07

and disconnected yeah , absolutely and

37:09

then there were other strategies , like

37:11

you know , monitoring my intake , keeping

37:14

my entertainment really light right

37:16

, being careful what kind of conversations

37:19

I got into yeah , like just

37:21

all sorts of things . Then , obviously

37:23

, when I was writing my dissertation , which was about

37:25

the history of trauma psychiatry , there was plenty

37:27

of really hairy stuff that I was In regular

37:29

contact with . I started thinking about

37:31

it being similar

37:34

to intentionally exposing

37:36

myself to

37:38

either intentionally taking in a low dose

37:41

poison , right With

37:43

its emotionally toxifying impact , or

37:45

intentionally exposing myself to radiation

37:48

. And what

37:50

are the strategies Like ? How do I monitor how

37:52

it's landing on me so that I know when

37:54

to stop ? Yeah , yeah

37:56

, and there's a lot of parallels

37:58

for me in engaging in anti-oppression

38:01

work , because that's similar to

38:03

trauma , bringing us into

38:05

close encounter with how

38:07

unsafe and oppressive , harmful

38:10

, violent , horrific

38:13

the world is , yeah , horrific horrific , yeah

38:15

, for certain people , including people who

38:17

might share my identities , people who might

38:19

not , and as human

38:21

beings with the capacity for

38:23

empathy , how do we

38:25

structure our engagement

38:27

and what strategies can be integrated

38:29

into our lives so that we can

38:32

sustain the work to work

38:34

against the oppression , do the work that's so important

38:36

to us without , as you say , burning

38:38

out , flaming out and having to stop ?

38:42

Okay , well , one I

38:44

want before I get into

38:46

that . Really brilliant and

38:48

, I would say , paramount question

38:50

. I want to go back to the emphasis on

38:53

empathy . Can you

38:55

help me better understand

38:57

? Are you saying , with

38:59

folks who have the capacity for empathy

39:02

that can contribute to the burnout

39:04

, or the empathy

39:07

has the potential to

39:09

do something else ? Can you ?

39:12

So where that statement came from was

39:15

my nerdy

39:17

historian had on now . Yes , in World War II

39:19

, us military

39:22

psychiatrists made a realization there

39:24

was one population that was immune

39:26

to battle fatigue , what they were calling then battle fatigue

39:29

People , whom they labeled as

39:31

psychopaths , people who did not have the

39:33

capacity for empathy . So

39:35

the capacity to be

39:38

both be traumatized and also , especially

39:40

where vicarious traumatization is

39:42

, like the trauma that comes from witnessing

39:44

that is a condition

39:46

of just being a human being with the capacity

39:49

to feel yeah , okay , right , yes

39:51

.

39:52

Yeah , yeah , yeah , I

39:54

do a training at UCLA on

39:57

empathy . I call it emphasis on empathy

39:59

and I always try

40:01

to make it apparent . You know why am I

40:03

you know , the director of equity , diversity

40:05

, inclusion doing this training ? I reference

40:08

research that shows

40:10

that , and I use a ladder as

40:13

an example . There are

40:15

countless identity ladders

40:17

, if you will , and your

40:19

various identities will place you

40:21

on a certain location on the ladder . So

40:23

, let's say I have a ladder of

40:25

physical ability or disability

40:28

ladder . Because I'm an able-bodied person

40:30

, I am at the top of that

40:32

ladder . I have privilege on

40:35

that specific ladder . There's research

40:37

to show that depending

40:40

on your various identities and

40:42

therefore power you hold in

40:44

those various realms , the

40:46

less in practice

40:48

you are with empathizing

40:50

. Because I'm at the top of this specific

40:53

ladder , I'm not used to

40:55

looking up at other folks on

40:57

the ladder and seeing their

40:59

experiences that are different from my own

41:01

and perspective taking

41:03

and considering what it's like for that

41:06

, because I'm at the top of my ladder , I'm not seeing

41:08

anybody else , so only my perspective

41:10

is in my purview . So

41:12

I'm out of practice . Because , let's

41:14

be real , empathy is a skill that

41:17

we can grow in and improve

41:19

in . But if I'm out of practice , I'm

41:21

not as quote unquote good

41:23

at it because I'm not as skilled

41:26

at it Versus , you know , like

41:28

I said , a black woman . You know , on the

41:30

ladder of race , I am lower down on

41:32

the ladder , so I'm more used to looking

41:34

up the ladder as I'm climbing , seeing

41:37

other folks who don't have my

41:39

specific racial identity , and

41:41

I am perspective taking . What is it like

41:43

? I'm used to seeing their perspective

41:45

more and their experience more . So I

41:47

am more in practice with

41:49

that . So I am quote unquote

41:52

better at empathizing . So

41:54

there's research to show that essentially

41:56

, the more power , social power

41:58

, privilege identities you have , the more

42:00

out of practice or less likely

42:03

you are to empathize . It

42:05

does . When I always say this to people doesn't

42:07

mean you're a bad person and that

42:09

does mean that now that you're aware

42:11

of it , I believe you now have a responsibility

42:14

to get in practice . Now I

42:16

am aware of it , let me get in practice

42:18

. Let me figure out

42:21

what areas do I have

42:23

privilege identities Like I said , there are countless

42:25

of them and let me practice

42:27

empathizing more . Let me practice perspective

42:30

taking more . That's

42:32

a side note . I think about that all the time , with empathy

42:34

on the other side of that coin

42:36

. I love that you brought up empathy when

42:39

it comes to potentially burning

42:41

out because I'll

42:44

cry . I think of myself as an

42:46

empathetic person and it can

42:48

be tiring at times . You

42:50

know I'll see strangers . You know I'm crying

42:52

because thinking

42:55

about their potential experience

42:57

, you know I can't and I don't know why I

42:59

can't handle it , and

43:02

that can absolutely contribute

43:04

. It's a beautiful thing . Like I said , I do

43:06

a literal whole training on

43:08

empathy alone . I think it's

43:11

a hugely important

43:13

skill when it comes to moving

43:15

our societies forward , and

43:18

it does absolutely

43:20

have the potential to

43:22

chip away at

43:25

your energy levels if you're

43:27

not careful , if you're not doing

43:29

some of the practices that we've talked

43:31

about in terms of filling

43:34

yourself back up . Okay , so that's a long

43:36

lead up to the question of what do we do

43:38

? You know , and

43:40

of course , this is going to be different for

43:42

different people . I

43:45

will give a little taste of one

43:47

of the kinds of rest . One of the kinds of rest

43:50

is social rest . When I mean

43:52

social rest , I

43:54

mean looking at the

43:56

various relationships

43:58

that you have in your life Family

44:01

, friends , colleagues , coworkers

44:03

, you know , lovers , whomever they

44:05

may be and considering

44:07

okay , which interactions , which

44:10

type of relationships do I have where

44:12

I feel like I am more so in

44:14

giving mode , I

44:16

am pouring into them , I

44:19

am having interactions that

44:21

feel less energizing

44:23

, more draining . I leave from that

44:25

conversation , whether it be five

44:28

seconds or five hours

44:30

, I'm feeling a little depleted , looking

44:33

at that and saying , okay , that's what social fatigue

44:36

is . And then , on the other

44:38

side , social rest . Like I said , rest

44:40

does not imply that you have to stop doing something , but

44:43

let me take a real intentional inventory of my

44:45

relationships . Which relationships

44:47

do I feel constantly energized

44:50

by ? Which relationships

44:52

do I have where they don't

44:54

want anything from me ? They

44:57

are just there to support me . They're just there

44:59

to listen , they're just there

45:01

to hold space for me . Which

45:03

conversations , you know , after five

45:05

hours do I still feel energized

45:07

, or maybe even more energized than I did

45:10

when we started talking ? That's

45:13

what social rest is . How

45:15

can I fill myself back up ? That's

45:18

when I've been trying to practice very intentionally

45:20

, especially

45:22

, I would say , the last couple months , that intentional

45:25

inventory . Okay , who

45:28

can I speak to ? Who I know

45:30

is just there to hold space for me , who doesn't want anything

45:32

from me , who doesn't expect anything from me , who

45:36

can pour into me

45:38

in a way that's not depleting from them , because

45:40

that's not going to make me feel good . You

45:42

know , that's an example . I

45:45

can give an example of physical rest . I

45:49

think often , oftentimes the most common

45:51

one , people think of the sleeping

45:53

, which fine . But

45:55

you know , there is more

45:58

active physical rest , like stretching

46:00

. Now , physical

46:03

rest is not like strenuous activity , that's

46:05

more so the opposite . But

46:09

stretching , yoga

46:11

, just sitting in a cup , just sitting in a comfortable position

46:13

, that can be physical rest

46:15

for you . You're really trying to again

46:18

pour back into yourself physically

46:20

. What that looks like for different people

46:22

will absolutely mean

46:25

different things . And lastly , I will say

46:27

one really

46:29

good indicator for me when it comes

46:31

to rest has been joy . When

46:34

I feel joy , I think

46:37

that is often connected to

46:39

what pours back into me

46:41

and that is intentional

46:43

resting for me in my spirit

46:45

, beautiful .

46:47

Beautiful , thank you . So I was thinking

46:49

about what you said earlier and I think it may

46:51

be worth clarifying . I'm using a

46:53

lay person's definition

46:56

of empathy , which is just feeling

46:58

evoked by seeing somebody else

47:00

suffering , right , and I think that

47:02

that's different , than there's

47:04

something different to me from that , than

47:07

being able to perspective , take somebody whose

47:09

identity is that I don't share , right . So

47:11

, in the first instance , I think it's

47:13

absorbing like really

47:15

terrible news that impacts people

47:18

, especially in particular

47:20

identity groups , whether or not I share those identity

47:22

groups or not , right , right . And then

47:24

you're adding an important layer of nuance

47:27

, which is not that we're going to talk

47:29

about this , and I think

47:31

just had too many reminders

47:33

in the last few years that it

47:36

is harder for people to

47:38

empathize in the way that you're talking

47:40

about with people who are

47:42

different to them if they don't

47:45

see them as people

47:47

yes .

47:48

The dehumanization yeah . We

47:50

don't have to get far into that , but yes .

47:53

I have learned many powerful lessons from the

47:56

clinicians in my life , whether it's been

47:58

through writing or through how

48:00

I've seen them engage

48:02

in the beautiful and powerful and

48:05

certainly impactful in many ways for me

48:07

personally or in terms of what

48:09

it's led me to think about and do in the

48:11

world that I would , with

48:13

this summit , like to offer

48:16

to people who are deeply

48:19

, deeply engaged in

48:21

anti-oppression work and social justice work

48:23

, because , as you said , if

48:25

our mentors and the people who came before

48:27

us gave up , then what would be here for us right

48:29

now ? Right , absolutely . So

48:31

I'm very excited . The summit is on April

48:34

10th and 11th , 2024

48:36

. People should be seeing notices

48:38

going out about it very soon and I'm

48:41

super excited for your

48:43

workshop .

48:43

Dr Sparks . Thank you

48:46

, Dr Hector . I'm very excited

48:48

myself . You know I love giving

48:50

workshops and I'm excited

48:52

because I feel like it is something

48:55

that I believe very

48:57

deeply in and

48:59

, like you said , you know I care

49:02

about the sustained nature

49:04

and sustained well-being

49:06

and sustained joy of

49:09

folks who are doing this work

49:11

. I believe it's a right

49:13

for all of us and

49:16

I think it's a monumental

49:18

portion of this work that

49:20

you know folks have started to

49:23

talk about , and I think we have a long way

49:25

to go in terms of continuing

49:27

to instill that in the work that

49:29

we do .

49:30

I am so deeply appreciative of you , hailey

49:32

. I love being in partnership in

49:35

terms of thinking and putting on events like this

49:37

and just talking to you about things that matter

49:39

so much to us . So thank you so so

49:41

much for taking the time to do this Of

49:43

course .

49:44

Thank you so much for having me

49:46

. Like I said , this is the type

49:49

of social rest you know . I feel

49:51

even more energized

49:53

having spoken about this with you

49:55

and exploring ideas . Yeah

49:57

, I feel energized , I feel good

50:00

, I feel invigorated in the work . So

50:02

thank you so much for having me

50:04

and giving me this opportunity to share

50:06

and explore with you .

50:08

Thank you , and so much the same Thank

50:10

you . If you don't already get

50:12

our newsletter and follow us on social media , I've included

50:15

links in the show notes . Look out for further

50:17

announcements about Vision's mental health program and

50:19

the 2024 spring summit . You

50:21

can also always email programs at Vision's

50:23

Inc with comments and questions . As

50:26

I mentioned at the top of the episode , 2024

50:28

is Vision's 40th year and we'll be

50:30

celebrating this milestone with an event that's taking

50:32

place in Boston on September 27th

50:34

2024 . Look out for details

50:37

about that as well . Thank you so

50:39

much for listening . Until next time .