0:01

All the media.

0:05

Hi everyone, and welcome to the show. It to be

0:07

James today, and I'm joined by Dr mau

0:09

Zani, who's an activist and scholar with thirty

0:12

five years of experience advocating

0:15

against genocide and for freedom and Burma

0:17

and one of the founding members of

0:19

the anarchist activist platform Forces

0:21

of Renewal Southeast Asia. Welcome to

0:23

the show, doctor Zigney.

0:25

Yeah, thank you so much. Yeah, yeah, it's.

0:27

A pleasure to have you here. So and

0:29

also I should mention Nobel Peace Prize

0:31

nominee as of as yesterday

0:34

or the day before the congratulations on that also.

0:37

Yeah, thanks so much. It happened in January,

0:40

before the deadline. And

0:42

so I just released the announcement,

0:45

you know for the Burmese New

0:48

Year you know occasion,

0:50

because yes, you know, the country has been

0:53

torn apart by you

0:55

know, armed revolutions, genocide,

0:59

the racism, anti

1:02

Muslim violence, and

1:04

so thought like this may be a

1:07

tiny sliver or positive

1:10

thing. And so if activists

1:12

want to have, you know,

1:15

there's some sustenance for

1:19

their grassroots revolution, here's somebody

1:21

who's who has been grassroots for

1:23

thirty five years. So that's why I

1:25

released it, but that's you know, the

1:28

secondary anyway.

1:30

Yeah, I know, it's if it can

1:32

get the world to look at what's happening

1:34

and pay attention, then I think it's a

1:36

good thing. So one thing

1:38

I wanted to ask you about today to start off

1:40

with, is something that when

1:43

I talk to people in the US and the

1:45

UK about the revolution and

1:47

the cure in Meamba, the context of

1:49

like ultranationalists Buddhism is

1:52

one that is very hard, I think

1:54

for people who don't have a great

1:56

understanding of how that works to understand.

1:59

So I was wondering if we could start off with

2:01

you explaining like this,

2:04

this long and painful history

2:06

of like ultra nationalist Buddhism in Myanmar

2:09

and how it's empowered the

2:11

genocide of Muslim people and

2:13

also the hunter Today.

2:16

Well, when we talk about you

2:18

know, ultra nationalism or various

2:20

strengths of nationalism, I

2:23

think we need to periodize

2:26

or put in different historical periods

2:30

because you know, the term

2:32

nationalism was

2:35

a progressive, emancipatory,

2:39

ideological umbrella

2:42

when the local

2:44

society or primarily

2:47

Buddhist and also other people,

2:49

but the majority political

2:52

systems were built on the

2:55

foundation of Buddhism

2:58

in Burma, you know, like different king But

3:01

when when we

3:03

were under the British for one hundred and twenty

3:06

four years the

3:09

war, you know internally

3:11

warring Buddhist kingdoms,

3:14

you know, like Rakine and Morn

3:16

and Burmese and Sean, they

3:19

all at Buddhist kingdoms, and

3:21

they formed

3:24

this oppositional ideological

3:27

identity as you

3:29

know, nationalists Buddhists

3:32

that would confront the alien

3:35

colonial British rule. So in that

3:37

sense, you know, nationalism

3:40

was not a bad thing at all

3:42

because it was you know, primarily

3:45

for emancipatory struggle.

3:49

But then like you know, then fast forward

3:51

post colonial independence

3:54

period nineteen forty eight

3:56

onward. Right when when

3:58

the British rule was removed at

4:01

the end of the Second World War three

4:04

years after the

4:06

the oppositional Buddhist nationalists,

4:09

you know, umbrella identity collapse,

4:13

right, So Rakines want to full

4:16

ground their ethnic city given

4:19

that the main oppositional

4:23

commonality, the colonial

4:26

colonialism, was no more. And

4:28

so that's when the you know, ethnicity

4:31

was reinjected, you know, into

4:33

the ideological formation.

4:36

And and interestingly,

4:39

as you would know as well, the

4:42

end of the Second World War was followed

4:45

by the Cold War right. And

4:47

on the one hand, like you've got you know, godless

4:50

communists, atheistic Russia,

4:54

a Soviet Union and in China. And

4:56

then on the other hand, you know, uh,

5:00

essentially Christian West, you know,

5:02

or at least allegedly Christian West.

5:05

And in that context,

5:08

the alternationalism was

5:12

essentially encouraged

5:15

by the by the United

5:18

States and allies. You

5:20

know, like if you that this is nothing new. If

5:22

you look at the rights

5:24

of like a socialist governments

5:28

across the Middle East, you know, primarily

5:30

Muslim Middle East, you

5:32

would find like the rights of Muslim brotherhood

5:35

and you know what we call today

5:37

fundamentalist Islamicist,

5:39

right, but you know, the

5:42

Buddhists with at

5:45

no centric orientation,

5:48

we're encouraged you

5:50

know, by the United States through

5:53

grants and aid. The

5:56

same way like you know, the right of you

5:58

know, fundamentalist is Islam was encouraged

6:01

or or Midwifi with

6:04

the US money. Because

6:07

the see that this is important because

6:10

through the eyes of the Coal war strategiest

6:13

the only way that egalitarian

6:18

leftist ideologies

6:21

could be confronted was

6:24

through this the faith

6:26

based ideology.

6:28

So I don't

6:30

want I'm not saying

6:32

that the Burmese nationalists

6:35

and also nationalists were not responsible

6:38

for their own growth. But

6:40

I also what I'm saying is that

6:42

there was a larger global

6:45

context in which this monster

6:48

was hatched. Yes, and and

6:51

and so, but even

6:53

you know, like the going back to the nineteen

6:56

thirties, after the Wall Street collapse,

6:58

you know, then, like you know, the the

7:01

recession pervaded across

7:03

the world, and colonial economies

7:06

like Burma with massive agric

7:08

cultural explorer economy, the

7:11

British founded expedient

7:15

to basically turn

7:17

to a religious divide

7:19

and rule. And like

7:22

you know, the Burmese Buddhist laboring

7:25

classes were pitted against

7:27

the Indian laboring

7:30

classes of different religions,

7:33

but that was more like the Buddhist nationalists

7:35

and non nationalists versus you

7:38

know, like what we were called today migrant

7:41

laborers from India, you

7:43

know, under the because when we were part of

7:45

British Empire. After the British

7:47

left, the Muslims

7:50

began to be scapegoaded. Uh.

7:53

And then finally, I think, like the we

7:56

cannot understands, as you know very well,

7:59

the nationalists or alternationalism

8:01

without some kind of political

8:04

organization, and that

8:07

organization is what we call Burmese

8:10

political or state, whether

8:13

it's controlled by the civilian elected

8:16

politicians or the military

8:19

military as an organization.

8:23

Political state's always there,

8:25

whether it's you know, fascism

8:28

in Nazi Germany or Italy or

8:30

Japan or like

8:32

you know, the genocidal Mimma

8:35

about fifteen years ago. State

8:38

was the engine. Actually, it's

8:41

not the people that were

8:43

generating this toxic ideology.

8:45

It was the state that was inventing,

8:49

manipulating and mobilizing towards

8:52

their sinister end.

8:54

Right yeah. And it's the divide

8:56

and rules strategy and the full I

8:59

guess the falling back to these

9:01

kind of colonial methods

9:03

of rule is something that I

9:05

guess I want people to understand is still happening

9:09

in Burma or Myanmar.

9:11

Right.

9:11

We see the military

9:14

that the junta doing it right now, right

9:16

like attempting to ferment inter

9:18

ethnic conflicts to prevent

9:21

the formation of a popular front or a coalition against

9:23

against their rule.

9:25

Right, Yes, I think the

9:27

here the one observation

9:29

I want to make is, you

9:31

know, independence from

9:33

Britain, a restoration

9:36

of say, like you know, modern form

9:39

of a sovereignty to Burmese

9:41

people was not a

9:43

clean break from

9:46

the colonial past, because

9:49

the state in Burma as it

9:52

exists or it has existed

9:54

over the last seventy plus

9:57

years, remains colonial

10:00

state. It was an instrument

10:02

of economic exploitation

10:06

or racialized or ethnicized

10:09

administration. And

10:11

all the security laws

10:15

and you know, ordinances

10:17

and whatnot, they

10:19

were formulated with

10:22

the interest of the ruling colonial

10:25

interests or power like

10:27

at the time British and what

10:29

the what independence did

10:32

was really transfer

10:34

of this internally racialized

10:38

entity we call state

10:42

from the white men's hand to the

10:44

brawn men's hand, you know, the

10:47

Burmese. So when

10:49

you the state wasn't

10:52

actually finding

10:55

it difficult to foment racial

10:58

or inter we don't use it term

11:00

race here, like inter ethnic conflict

11:03

or inter religious conflict.

11:06

The state itself embodied

11:08

this divide and rule outlook

11:12

because it remains internally

11:14

colonial, you see what I mean. And

11:18

so so I think that it

11:20

isn't simply the

11:22

policies of the you know, X

11:24

y Z regimes that have rude

11:27

Burma since independence, but the

11:29

state itself is

11:32

conducive to or

11:34

you know, supportive of this

11:36

kind of inter religious

11:39

and inter ethnic contest

11:43

because there there are no

11:46

principles of equality

11:48

as as ethnic or religious

11:50

communities or there

11:52

there there was no sense of you

11:56

know, horizontal or vertical

11:59

fairness among the political

12:01

class and the majoritarian

12:03

agrarian communities, and

12:05

so the state isself problematic.

12:08

Yeah, that's why, like you know, when

12:11

al san Suci came to you

12:13

know, semi power, because the

12:15

military is still controlled or backseat

12:18

drove for a regime, she

12:20

found it really difficult to

12:23

maneuver because she was

12:25

straight jacketed in this you

12:28

know internally colonial shell.

12:31

Yeah. Yeah, and then so so think

12:34

of course, like you know, you're it's correct

12:37

what the military is doing now, say in

12:39

Racine State where

12:41

they committed genocide against

12:43

Rhinia Muslims. You know, they drove

12:46

out, you know, close to eight hundred thousand

12:48

raw hingers of genocidally

12:51

across the border to Bangladesh

12:53

in two thoyd and seventeen and also

12:56

sixteen. They

12:58

are now and

13:00

training and you know forcively

13:03

conscripting able

13:05

body young Rhinjia men into

13:09

their ranks and to fight

13:11

the progressively

13:13

militarily stronger kind

13:16

Buddhist Ara army. That's just one

13:19

area. But you know, if you look at

13:21

other regions like shun Stay for

13:23

instance, there's extremely

13:26

complex ethnic contestations

13:29

happening, right, So what like political

13:31

scientists call like a horizontal

13:34

violence is taking place, and so it's

13:36

like there are multiple conflicts

13:40

at work, you know. But

13:42

of course, like the military is number one,

13:45

you know, problem maker, but there

13:47

are also lesser evil

13:51

forms of like political and ethnic

13:54

conflicts taking place.

14:06

Yeah, I think, yeah, very much against shan states.

14:08

I think particularly complicated

14:11

and interesting as we look at

14:13

the situation now in

14:17

the different like both in the liberated

14:19

areas or the areas without control of the

14:23

like NAPI or state that they may still be controlled

14:25

kind of in a sense by other kind

14:28

of like pseudo states. I guess, are

14:30

you familiar with this? There's

14:32

this argument. I think it's probably like

14:34

articulated. I'm sure you are articulated,

14:37

most notably by James

14:39

C. Scott of like and

14:41

he looks at the example of me and MA has

14:43

been rightly criticized in some areas of

14:46

like the mountains as an

14:48

area where people can I guess,

14:51

choose to opt out of the

14:53

state or to be like where

14:55

the state is not completely consolidated, I guess,

14:57

and never has been.

14:59

Ye. I know, I know Jim's work,

15:01

you know, like the the he

15:04

divides people into valleys

15:06

and uh, you know mountains. You know

15:09

what's interesting is like you know, it's

15:11

it's it's a lot more complex

15:13

than this, you know, the

15:16

the dualistic understanding

15:18

of like hill people versus plain people,

15:20

because you know, like even in

15:23

the in the hills that there

15:25

are you know, highlands and and

15:27

and there are plateaus and you know the

15:30

you know and so. But also

15:32

I think like that I find

15:35

it more useful to look

15:37

at this not through

15:39

geographic lens, but through the colonial

15:41

lens, because you've got the colonial

15:44

state, because like you know, Jim is essentially

15:46

anti statist. But as

15:48

a matter of value, yeah, I I

15:50

I I am with him, you know, because I'm

15:53

bent on u the

15:55

anarchism as my value, you know. But

15:58

analytically, I think, but

16:02

given the fact that the colonial

16:05

state continues to live on and

16:08

continue to haunt the Burmese

16:11

society, I think,

16:13

like the way I look at it is like you

16:15

know, center and perifheree, right,

16:19

irrespective of the altitude.

16:22

I mean, at this point, like altitudes

16:24

no longer really strategically

16:27

important because you know, we're we

16:30

live in the age of drones, and

16:32

like you know, MiG twenty nine

16:34

and f sixteen mountains

16:37

are no longer cover you see what I

16:40

mean, right.

16:40

Yeah, Yeah, the construct

16:42

of the mountains as like nonstate

16:45

space or a place where you can go to choose to

16:48

be nonstate. I think like it's

16:50

interesting to hear young Bama PDFs

16:53

fighters now be like, oh, I

16:56

chose to go to the mountains, even though it

16:58

sits very much alongside that can only analysis

17:00

that you had of like the wild

17:03

people or like quote unquote

17:05

savagery, right, which or when

17:07

I speak to Bama people who are

17:10

like twenty one now who joined the PDFs eighteen

17:12

seventeen after the coup, they

17:15

had all been very much indoctrinenty

17:17

with the idea of non Bamar people

17:19

as quote savage as or wild people who lived

17:22

in the quote mountains or jungles, and

17:24

like choosing to go there to escape the state.

17:27

I think it's really interesting to hear like

17:30

that analysis reproduced in their

17:33

storytelling of their own lives.

17:36

Yeah. I mean, I think you

17:39

know that it has been in

17:41

the Burmese political psyche.

17:44

You move away from the center and

17:47

you are more autonomous and you

17:50

are you know, freer from

17:52

the right. You know, the

17:54

reach of the center, right, because

17:58

we still have this center

18:01

peripheree mentality. Yeah, I mean, you

18:03

know, culturally, yes, you're absolutely right.

18:06

Uh, the the way people in the center,

18:08

like the group that I belong

18:11

to, Burmese Buddhist majority, we

18:13

look down on people that are on the peripheree,

18:16

right, that the way people dress. I mean

18:19

it's also like you know, the

18:21

rural and urban divide as

18:23

well, you know, the even

18:26

like those who grew up in the

18:28

in the non majoritarians, you

18:31

know regions that you know what I call that the

18:33

peripheys of the Burmese colonial

18:35

state. When they settle in

18:37

Rangoon or Mandale or or you know

18:39

major urban areas, Uh,

18:43

they they begin to dress. They

18:45

they begin to I mean, they necessarily

18:47

adapt to the

18:49

the the Burmese way of life,

18:52

the majority dominant you

18:54

know, customs and whatnot, and

18:58

so so I still stick with

19:00

the you know this whole colonial

19:02

relations the organizationally

19:05

and psychologically. The

19:08

Yeah, I mean also like that

19:10

we have the vocabulary if

19:12

you want to oppose a central state

19:15

or the central regime, we

19:17

say we take refuge in the forest,

19:20

right, and we take refuge

19:22

in the forest or under the tree against

19:25

the scorching sun or

19:27

like pouring monsoon rain right

19:31

or the evil center

19:33

right, and so so it's all

19:35

built in. It's in the language even

19:38

you know, like organizing

19:40

an armed revolt or going

19:42

underground is described

19:45

as taking refuge

19:47

in the forest the jungle, you know,

19:50

and and and what's what's interesting

19:52

though, is like you know, from the state's

19:54

perspective, if you're taking

19:57

refuge in the in the

19:59

jungle, of course, like that's

20:01

treason us and you know that is

20:04

uh an act of criminality.

20:07

But if you if you use

20:09

that language, or if you if

20:12

you do exactly the same thing literally

20:14

physically, if you're a Buddhist

20:16

monk, you know, you

20:19

you are considered holier

20:22

than monks that continue

20:24

to live in the city, you know what I mean. So

20:27

you go, you know, the forest monks

20:29

versus like a city town

20:32

or village monk. Right. So this

20:35

is quite a fascinating linguistic

20:39

you know twist here on

20:41

one hand, like you know, but from the revolutionaries

20:44

perspective, if

20:47

you're in the jungle, you

20:50

grow certain aura around

20:53

you. You're in the jungle, right, and

20:55

you don't you don't wear genes

20:58

or you don't look like city people. But you're

21:00

worrying, you know, like the

21:03

fatigue, army fatigue and you know, jungle,

21:06

the paraphernalia. And

21:09

as a revolutionary that's like, you

21:11

know, that's I check with our time, you

21:13

know what I mean. Revolutions start

21:16

or organize around jungles,

21:18

you know, I mean, so it has nothing

21:21

to do with altitude, you see what I mean?

21:23

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's just yeah.

21:25

I like that periphery colonial model. So

21:38

I wonder, like, I think people who

21:40

listen to this will both be very

21:43

much like amenable to anarchism

21:45

and see the problems that state

21:47

societies create, and also

21:49

to the revolution in Memma and

21:52

to the young people, and then not to young people

21:54

who are fighting it. I wonder like, how

21:57

do we build a

21:59

future for me that doesn't replicate

22:01

this colonial corporaphery model, that doesn't

22:04

the scene quannon of the state that's centered

22:06

in Napidor is like the it's

22:09

this use of violence to control and this colonial

22:11

relationship, right, So how do we not replicate that

22:13

in the post revolution future?

22:16

Well, I think you know, there's a danger

22:19

in what should I say,

22:21

the romanticizing the

22:24

mini states or substates. Right

22:29

if establishing

22:31

autonomous states does

22:35

not confront the

22:37

colonial nature of the state

22:41

from which these meaning states you

22:44

know, emerge as oppositional entities.

22:46

In other words, whatever

22:49

administrative structures that

22:52

you know, the the the

22:55

current armed revolutionary organizations

22:59

set up, they need to

23:01

first make

23:03

sure they don't replicate that the

23:06

internally colonial nature

23:08

of the state that they have been

23:10

fighting and to some

23:12

degree of like success at

23:15

this point in history, right, because

23:20

the coloniality is

23:23

very much connected with

23:26

the idea of pure ethnic

23:28

identity, you see what I mean, Yeah,

23:31

and in this day and age, I mean

23:33

you know whether I mean you've been to current state

23:35

and other places in Burma and and you

23:37

know in the Middle East at Curtis and so. But

23:40

they're they're they're always

23:42

like, you know, the idea of

23:45

pure ethnic identity,

23:47

right, even if you're a revolutionary But

23:49

but but the truth, the truth

23:52

is, you know, even small

23:54

places you will find Muslims and

23:56

Hindus and Christians or people

23:58

with different migratory histories

24:00

and class background. You flettened

24:03

them into a single ethnic

24:05

identity, right that well, that

24:08

that that in and I mean self

24:10

perception, we are a new Kurrent

24:13

state or Karany state

24:15

or Kachin state, right, even Kachin

24:18

the late the term label the

24:21

label Katchin in the north. You

24:23

know, they have about like the three or four major

24:26

groups there and and some

24:28

resent being referred to

24:30

as Kirtchin, but they go along

24:33

because they are against the more

24:35

evil central Burmese

24:37

Buddhist state, right right, so

24:39

so so so so that's why when I when

24:41

I explain to you, you know, at the outset

24:44

of this the conversation, this

24:47

like your Buddhist identities merged

24:50

as an oppositional umbrella, anti

24:53

colonial identity

24:56

against the British when that common

24:58

oppressors has gone home,

25:01

and then we start fighting each other, you know what I mean.

25:04

So number one is like, you know, that is

25:07

very very important. These

25:09

new entities do not define

25:12

their political organizations

25:14

along any idea of

25:16

like you know, blood and soil.

25:19

Yeah, and that's

25:21

very very important. Otherwise we

25:24

we we replicate what

25:26

we fought against. Right. And secondly,

25:31

I think no military

25:33

organizations should control administrations.

25:38

But at the moment, you know, with

25:40

the exception of the Grand National Union,

25:43

most other ethnically organized

25:46

armed resistance organizations

25:48

and Burma, when

25:50

they set up administrations,

25:53

you know, administrators are guys who are

25:55

you know, like carrying

25:57

like AK forty seven or some of the

26:00

weapons. You see what I mean, because

26:03

like what they need to do is as

26:05

soon as like that they have secure

26:07

any like an ancestral

26:10

region, what they need to do is they

26:12

need to separate law

26:14

and order maintenance from

26:17

the defense. Yeah, And

26:19

the reason we have

26:21

gotten into this bloody

26:24

mess is because the military

26:27

did not separate law and order

26:29

administration as a civilian function

26:32

function from the national

26:35

defense. So the

26:38

current progressively militarily

26:41

successful ethnic resistance organizations

26:45

have to demilitarize

26:48

self consciously and as a matter

26:50

of policy their new

26:52

administrations. So these

26:54

two things, you know, move

26:57

away from blood and soil

26:59

idea year of identity and

27:02

demilitarized and civilianized

27:05

the administration.

27:07

Yeah, do you have hope? Like I

27:09

find when I talk to especially

27:13

younger people in the PDF, who are most people, ma, like,

27:16

maybe it's easier for them to see

27:19

the obviously colonial

27:21

relationship and the way that these

27:24

constructs have harmed them and prevented

27:26

them from finding solidarity with people of other ethnic

27:28

groups. That's something that like sometimes

27:31

they will articulate to me, right that like, you

27:34

know, we were told these people were

27:37

bad and evil and savage and they're not and there are

27:39

allies in this fight against dictatorship.

27:41

Do you think that that's replicated in the

27:43

in the leadership of eros,

27:46

like that that idea that this blood

27:48

and soil nationalism has been this

27:51

blood soil identity, I should say, is

27:53

something that's like big, problematic

27:56

and devisive and will always be so, or like

27:58

do you not see that applicated so much?

28:02

Well, there is still you know,

28:04

the old conservative

28:07

orientations

28:09

in these ros with

28:12

respect to two things, the

28:15

acceptance of you

28:18

know, younger generations

28:21

into policy making circles,

28:24

right, And then the other

28:26

one is the half

28:28

of the population of these ethnic

28:30

communities have remained marginalized.

28:34

That is war men, if you

28:36

you know, I mean, on one hand, it

28:38

does make sense that you know, men

28:40

with guns and men with like you know, the

28:43

fifty years of revolutionary experience

28:46

are going to play leading role. But

28:49

these guys have to make us conscious

28:52

effort in changing

28:55

their own value system, which

28:57

is like, you know, bring in new

29:00

generations with

29:03

more progressive ideas

29:05

into policy making circle leadership

29:08

circle, and bring

29:10

in women. And you know, I

29:13

wish I understand I know more about the

29:15

Kurdish revolutionary organizations.

29:18

My own very limited understanding

29:20

is that you know, gender equality,

29:23

I mean, for the for the islam orphobic

29:26

crowd, it might be quite

29:28

shocking, But the Kurdish revolutionary

29:31

organizations are you know, much

29:34

more gender equal. Yeah

29:38

then like you know white democratic societies.

29:41

Yeah, that's right. And I think their analysis,

29:43

if I can sort of summarize

29:47

like appost thought very is

29:49

that colonialism begins

29:51

in the patriarchal family, and

29:53

that the first colonized subject is to the

29:55

women. And therefore, if we can't decolonize

29:58

our familia and community relations, we

30:00

have little hope of deconalizing ourselves

30:02

as a group or as a society. So they're analysis

30:04

rest in the same place as yours does. And

30:07

I think that there's I think

30:09

increased solidarity

30:11

and communication between the Kurdish

30:13

freedom movement and the resistance movements in

30:16

mem which I hope can only do good

30:18

for that. Like, especially with regard

30:20

to gender relations, it was interesting to see

30:23

the Kereni K and DF Battalian

30:25

five issued a statement which said

30:27

that like they had a long way to go

30:29

in terms of gender relations, and they looked to the

30:31

Kurdish model of example of where they can get

30:33

to, which at least it gives me hope

30:36

that these things can get better.

30:39

Yeah. I mean KNDF is a remarkable

30:42

you know organization,

30:44

Karr natural defense organization, right,

30:46

Karenny Keranny. I mean they

30:48

are led by very progressive sort

30:51

of like you know, the semi anarchist

30:55

type young people.

30:57

Yeah, you know, the city

31:00

and gender discrimination are

31:04

self consciously avoided

31:06

and discouraged. Yeah. So

31:08

so basically other we

31:11

we cannot we cannot have a

31:13

successful revolutionary movement,

31:16

you know, just by trying

31:19

to you know, take power

31:21

from the center. You know, there has to be

31:24

you know, it's an rebellion. It's

31:26

different from a revolutionary movement.

31:28

Revolutionary movement involves

31:31

a shifting fundamentally

31:34

the non progressive

31:37

values and outlooks. Right. That

31:39

that is what something that needs to happen,

31:41

and that that, in my view, uh

31:45

is a deeply you

31:47

know, intellectual psychological

31:51

process. But I think I think

31:53

like the the

31:55

that is happening, you know, and so the

31:58

so that that that ideological

32:02

progressive shift is

32:05

it is going to hit the ceiling

32:09

at some point because you've

32:12

got old men in a decision

32:15

making positions who

32:17

are not who haven't bought

32:19

in entirely the

32:22

need to shift their

32:25

value system. And then partially it's not

32:27

simply ideological, it's

32:29

also self interest. When

32:31

you're when you're the when you're the boss

32:34

for twenty five years, you know,

32:36

you're a little like autocredit tyrant,

32:38

you know what I mean. Organization,

32:41

So shifting the you know, giving

32:44

women and younger generation spaces

32:47

me you know, you

32:50

shutting up fifty percent of the time

32:52

and letting the other you know,

32:55

people speak fifty percent, you

32:57

know, like they're they're no no more like monologue

32:59

for one, you see what I mean. So

33:03

even like you know, the airtime,

33:05

you have less airtime, that's like

33:07

you're less. That's your self interest

33:09

your airtime, you know, let

33:12

alone economic and other interests.

33:14

This is just like talking in

33:15

the in in a meeting, you

33:18

see what I mean. I've been through like some of

33:20

some of the meetings and stuff, and so you

33:22

know, like guys think that only they have

33:25

important things to say, you

33:27

know, especially military matters or big

33:29

items. Okay, like women talk about

33:31

welfare of children and

33:34

you know widows kind of shit.

33:36

Yeah, yeah, this very sort

33:38

of still like separate spheres gender

33:40

model that I know. Yeah, I have hope for the

33:43

young generation, but I

33:45

remember one of the guys I met,

33:47

he told me that, like he

33:50

said, he said, like three years ago,

33:53

I had some gender problems and I didn't

33:56

understand what he meant, and he was like, I thought that women could

33:58

do things that men could do, and now I realized

34:00

I was wrong. And they were telling me that

34:02

the police wouldn't

34:05

there there was a taboo to walk underneath

34:07

a woman's lunch.

34:11

Yes, so yeah, so they hung them around their

34:13

protest camps when they were in Yangon fighting

34:15

the police, and that the police wouldn't come in, so

34:18

that they were like, oh, this is when I realized that

34:20

sexism hurts everyone. So I think

34:22

it's yeah, we I have hope for that

34:24

generation. I think it's It's been

34:27

one of the things that has given me so much hope

34:30

for the world in general as I've

34:32

been covering the revolution in the Amma, is

34:34

to see people reconstruct

34:37

and change their identities in

34:39

a progressive and inclusive way and

34:42

people, you know, people in this countries and the

34:44

UK as well, are so stuck in their

34:47

sort of regressive identities, and to see

34:50

young people there acknowledged that sexism,

34:52

homophobia, these these racist and

34:54

inter ethnic like hierarchies

34:57

are damaging everyone has. It's

34:59

given me a great deal of hope for the future.

35:03

Yeah. I share your optimism. And

35:06

part of it is, you know, the

35:08

progressives or people

35:11

or younger people or like older people

35:13

with progressive outlooks.

35:15

I mean, everything is constructed,

35:18

you know, like if you change the material situation

35:20

in terms of you know who's making

35:23

decisions or you

35:25

know under what conditions decisions

35:27

are made. I think like people

35:29

are able to shift their thinking,

35:33

you see what I mean. I

35:35

mean, And so I

35:37

think like that, but definitely

35:40

that political leadership is very important,

35:43

you know. I mean I don't I don't believe in

35:45

this like a van Goddess idea

35:47

of like a group of men, uh

35:50

you know, you know, guiding guiding

35:52

the herd. Right. But

35:54

at the same time, I think like these

35:57

older men should meet

36:00

the younger generations halfway.

36:03

Yeah, And I'm not saying like okay, all right,

36:05

you know, like you know, like, don't trust

36:08

anyone above forty because I'm

36:10

six years I just don't want to be trusted. And

36:14

but yeah, I mean, I'm sixty and I

36:17

can take shit from eighteen year

36:19

old junior friend or colleague

36:21

who tell me you're full of shit. And

36:24

here's the reason I listen, right, So

36:27

I assume, like other people

36:29

my age, my generation, will be

36:31

able to do the

36:34

adjustment right and especially

36:36

for the better and the But

36:39

I think that there are

36:42

really articulate young

36:44

people and women, yes,

36:47

whose voices need to

36:49

come to the full, like you know, like people

36:52

the people be I mean, like, we don't

36:54

live in isolation anymore, like in the nineteen

36:56

sixties and seventies and eighties, Burma

36:59

was very isolated, and so you know,

37:02

and so the ideological currents

37:05

do not reach within

37:07

the Burmese society, so

37:10

that the type of religions or

37:12

religions I mean Christianity,

37:15

the type of Christian practices outlook

37:18

whatnot remain like extremely

37:20

conservative compared with like you know, even

37:23

like a conservative like Christian country

37:25

like US A uh

37:29

and uh. But now, like

37:31

you know, with we live in the social media

37:33

internet age, and so you know, young people

37:37

you know use the term like

37:39

intersectionality, you s. I mean

37:41

they start to see like race, class, gender

37:44

and other issues you know, like

37:46

inter intersecting and

37:48

then producing or reproducing or

37:51

ending like different forms

37:53

of uh you know, repression and

37:56

you know, exploitation and whatnot.

37:59

We still have a very very long way

38:01

to go. We can't shift. But

38:04

that's not not to say that you know,

38:06

we shall feel like discouraged, but

38:09

we we We won't

38:11

see instant changes.

38:15

No, yeah, but I think over time, Yeah,

38:18

I have an deal of a great deal of optimism

38:20

for the future of me Emma, Doctor Sanny.

38:23

It's it's been really great talking.

38:25

Where can people, especially people who are

38:27

interested in your work and in

38:29

the future of Memma, how how can they follow

38:32

along with your work and with these

38:34

struggles to create a more equal

38:37

and just in democratic

38:39

in the non state sense Burma.

38:42

I mean one. I mean I use social

38:44

media, especially like you know, Facebook

38:47

a lot. And I began like

38:49

consciously writing in Burmese

38:52

language because I

38:54

don't need to inform the world, because

38:56

the world knows the ship that's going on

38:58

in Burma. And and

39:01

so I think the uh

39:04

my, Facebook's okay. But if

39:06

people read like English or

39:09

even like you know, other languages,

39:11

you know, our own mother tongue. Uh.

39:14

The the Forces of

39:16

Renewal Southeast Asia four

39:18

c dot com CEO. It's

39:21

a good platform we encourage

39:24

and actually we seek out

39:26

uh you know, very radical ideas

39:29

in multiple languages. Burmese

39:32

or or Chin or Karani

39:34

or whatever language they want to use. We

39:37

don't censor anyone. They

39:39

can say anything as long

39:41

as they're not advocating fascist

39:44

them or violence or like, you know,

39:47

things like that. And so yeah,

39:49

I encourage to take a glanset

39:51

our you know, Southeast Asia Network

39:54

of Anarchistic Activists

39:56

and Scholars.

39:58

Yeah.

39:58

Yeah, it's a great website and clear a link

40:00

to it in the description. Thank you

40:02

so much for your time this evening. We really

40:04

appreciate it.

40:11

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