0:00

Hello, friends, and welcome to episode one

0:02

hundred and seventy nine of just

0:04

the zoo of us. This week, I spoke with

0:07

a primatologist and biological anthropologist

0:10

about the ballerinas of the

0:12

Central and South American rainforests. SpiderMonkeys,

0:16

we discuss what life the treetops

0:18

looks like through a spider monkeys, big

0:20

beautiful eyes, the latest innovations

0:23

in butt scratching technology, and

0:25

the power of friendship. Just the zoo

0:27

of us presents SpiderMonkeys with

0:29

doctor Michelle Rodriguez. Hello,

1:03

friends. This is Ellen Weatherford. Welcome

1:05

back to just the zoo of us, your favorite animal

1:07

review podcast, and this week We

1:09

have a brand new friend that I'm extremely excited

1:12

to talk to you. This is Dr. Michelle Rodrigues.

1:15

Say hi, Dr. Michelle. Hello.

1:17

Nice to meet everyone. Michelle, what are

1:19

your pronouns? There's she her. Thank

1:21

you so much. I am so excited

1:24

to talk to you. You study and

1:26

work with some really, really incredible animals

1:29

that I'm super excited to learn more about

1:31

and get to know. But before we talk about

1:33

our really cool animals today, I love to talk

1:35

about you a little bit. What kind

1:37

of work do you do with these cool animals?

1:39

I studied their behavior I've also

1:42

studied their ecology 179 their hormones. the

1:45

goal of a lot of my research is understanding

1:48

why primate swarm

1:49

friendships, how they form friendships,

1:51

and how that helps them cope with stress.

1:54

This is fascinating to me because

1:56

a lot of times we don't necessarily think

1:59

a lot about animals, being

2:01

friends with other animals, you

2:03

know, like we think about animals being friends

2:05

with us as our pets,

2:08

you know, and things like that. But we we don't

2:10

typically think about you know,

2:12

animals being friends with each other and

2:14

how that affects their lifestyle.

2:17

What has that research look like

2:19

for you? Are you like, going out into the wild

2:22

and looking at wild monkeys or

2:24

looking like watching them in

2:25

zoos? Like, what does that look like for you? Well,

2:27

so I've done both. I've done both. Captive

2:29

research in Zoos. I've worked with

2:31

SpiderMonkeys and Sanctuary, but

2:33

then I also did a lot of field work in Costa

2:36

Rica. The zoo research the Costa

2:38

Rica and research the field research They're

2:40

similar in some ways that you're watching

2:42

monkeys and observing their behavior

2:45

captivity. easier in some

2:47

ways because if you want, say, biological samples

2:50

like poop, which tells us lots of information.

2:53

The keepers can collect that. But

2:55

if you're in the wild, you have to follow the

2:57

monkeys around wait for them to poop

3:00

hope the poop doesn't fall into the swamp or

3:02

anything like that. What a

3:04

glamorous job?

3:06

Well, it's better than when it falls on your head.

3:09

Oh my gosh. I just had a bird poop

3:11

on me and I felt

3:13

so blessed because it was a bird

3:15

I've never seen before. So I was like,

3:17

I I after I lamented the fact that I

3:19

was so excited to see this bird 179 then it pooped on me,

3:22

Everybody that I told about that

3:24

said, oh, that's good luck if you

3:26

get pooped on by a

3:27

bird, which I don't know if that was like them trying

3:29

to console me and make me feel better about getting pooped

3:31

on.

3:31

I've heard that one before. Does

3:32

that apply to monkeys too? Yeah. So,

3:35

well, it's a kind of running joke amongst

3:37

crimatologists. We refer to it as

3:39

the field's baptism when you get a

3:42

peed or pooped down in the field.

3:44

So, like, you're not a real primatologist until

3:47

you've had that experience. 179 then you're

3:49

kind of part of the club.

3:50

You have to be anointed. Yes.

3:55

I imagine that being in a zoo

3:57

setting is maybe a little bit more

4:00

sanitized.

4:01

It is. I mean, there's pros and it's

4:03

a little bit easier to see the animals. You

4:06

tend to get better visibility. As

4:08

I said, having if you're having keepers collect

4:10

samples, it's usually a bit easier

4:12

on you. But I would

4:14

say the tougher part is sometimes

4:16

new crowds can be a bit much. Mhmm.

4:19

Sometimes it's a lot

4:21

easier when you kind of

4:23

have a little more peace and quiet, which sometimes

4:25

happens during the low hours for zoos.

4:28

And fieldwork, it's harder

4:31

but it also can be a

4:33

lot more rewarding in really

4:35

unexpected ways, such as having

4:37

other random encounters with different

4:39

animals or just going to see

4:42

cool things in reinforced ecosystems. Oh,

4:45

gosh. I bet. There's also of amazing

4:47

critters out there. I bet you've seen some amazing

4:49

stuff. Yeah. So I was actually

4:51

just to a friend about some

4:53

of our animal encounters studying

4:55

primates. 179 it's kind of random

4:57

who who or what animals we

4:59

see. I've had a lot of run ins with

5:01

these, weasel like animals, called

5:03

teres, Oh, I've

5:05

heard of those. They're so cute. They

5:08

sometimes make almost like little zoey

5:10

sounds. There's actually just this

5:12

research published about how

5:14

if you've ever heard of a of a kwaddi or

5:16

kwaddi Mandy? Yes. You

5:19

have those little, like, rectum like faces.

5:21

They sometimes will actually be

5:24

on the fourth floor, like listening for

5:26

where the monkeys are dropping food so they

5:28

can, like, forage 179 all the fruits of the

5:30

monkeys have dropped. And

5:32

so if you're standing quietly

5:34

in the forests watching SpiderMonkeys,

5:37

Sometimes, there'll just be a little family of coolates

5:39

that'll, like, quietly surround And

5:41

if you're not moving much, they don't

5:43

notice or mind you. They get scared

5:45

if you make any sudden movements,

5:47

but then you'll just be watching the monkeys

5:49

surrounded by

5:50

coyotes, and it's kind of just a little

5:52

magical experience. They're

5:54

just like in harmony with

5:56

each other. That's I bet that's so

5:58

beautiful. It is.

6:01

So for people listening who aren't super familiar

6:03

with

6:03

SpiderMonkeys, where are they found in

6:05

the world? And and what do they like?

6:08

Yeah. So, SpiderMonkeys live

6:10

in Central and South America. There's a

6:12

few different species. Their

6:14

northernmost range is kind

6:16

of Southern Mexico around

6:18

the Yucatan Peninsula, and

6:20

then they go kind of south

6:22

into the Amazon. And

6:25

so SpiderMonkeys are

6:27

a type of what used to be called New World Monkey,

6:29

now we call them monkeys of the Americas. And

6:31

that means that they're more

6:33

distantly related to us than the

6:35

monkeys that are found in Africa and Asia.

6:37

But they're also a really cool group.

6:40

These groups of monkeys tend to live

6:42

more of their lives in the trees. And

6:44

spider monkeys are actually a

6:46

part of a group of monkeys that have these

6:48

special adaptations. They're called Adilene's

6:51

adily. And they have what are

6:53

called true prehensile tails.

6:56

And so if you've ever seen

6:58

a picture of a monkey hanging from its tail,

7:01

If it can hang from his its tail and,

7:03

like, support its whole weight, that

7:05

is what a prehensile tail

7:06

is. And it's only

7:08

a group of about a handful

7:11

of species that can actually do that.

7:13

Yeah. We just talked about one really

7:15

recently on the show. I'm trying to remember what it was. It was

7:17

an arborial species. That

7:19

had a prehensile tail, and I remember being,

7:21

like, surprised by how

7:23

rare that actually is compared

7:26

to how often you see animals do it in

7:28

cartoons. Yeah.

7:29

There's only paper you might be thinking,

7:32

willy monkeys or howler monkeys or

7:34

Morikis. There's also

7:36

Capuchans have a bit of a prehensile

7:38

tail, but they actually don't have I mean, it's a

7:40

little messy what you call a true prehensile

7:43

tail and a a prehensile tail that's

7:45

not quite there. Capuchin

7:47

monkeys can hang from their tails, but

7:49

what they don't have that the SpiderMonkeys

7:52

and Morikis and Willy Monkeys and

7:54

Howler Monkeys have is they

7:56

have this bear patch underneath their

7:57

tail. And it actually has a fingerprint.

8:00

Whoa. With fingerprints

8:03

are called dermatoglyphics. They actually

8:05

evolved to help primates grip

8:07

surfaces like tree branches.

8:10

And so having that bare patch with those kind

8:12

of grippy surfaces helps

8:14

them to get a really good solid

8:17

purchase on a branch so that it

8:19

supports their weight 179 they can hold on tight. And

8:21

they have these really strong tail muscles

8:23

too, and they're very dextrous. They're able

8:25

to basically use it like an extra hand.

8:27

Are their tail pads unique

8:29

like our fingerprints are? Yes. They

8:31

are. Whoa. That's so cool. I

8:34

179 if to unlock their phones, they have to

8:36

hold their tail up to the tail print

8:38

reader. If they

8:39

had phones, that would probably what me what

8:42

they do.

8:45

Kampuchans are really cute too. They're

8:47

adorable, but they're evil and

8:49

mischievous. 179, I mean, they're

8:51

love

8:51

people. They're

8:52

kinda like Don't cross them. They're scary.

8:55

I was trying

8:57

to think, like, if there had been a

8:59

situation in which I had seen SpiderMonkeys in

9:01

the wild, And when you mentioned that they live

9:03

in the Yucatan Peninsula, I realized that

9:05

I think I have seen wild

9:07

spider monkeys in Mexico. We

9:10

went to Chachoben,

9:12

these Mayan ruins at Chachoben,

9:15

and they saw these

9:17

really charismatic,

9:19

agile monkeys that were just

9:21

like effortlessly gliding through the

9:23

treetops. It was so cool. Like, you

9:25

know, just with the fluidity of their

9:27

movements looked so effortless

9:29

179 they were just jumping around in the trees. I don't

9:31

know for sure if it was SpiderMonkey specifically.

9:33

But they look like they had those, you know, those

9:36

long lanky limbs and and they

9:37

were, like, a dark brown color, which

9:40

I I think it looks like a muggies

9:42

look like. They're they're also probably where

9:44

hauler monkeys in the area, but haulers

9:46

are a little less energetic. Yeah.

9:49

These these little guys were moving. That

9:51

sounds like Spider Mankeys. And

9:53

they were so delightful to see. I they

9:55

were moving too fast for me to get a picture.

9:58

So I can only imagine how frustrating it is

10:00

trying to do research on them in the wild. Yeah.

10:02

It can be a challenge. They're not one of

10:04

the easiest species to study. I've

10:07

also heard about a lot of animals that, like,

10:10

their behavior can

10:12

change a lot between in

10:14

the wild and in

10:16

captivity. 179 since you've kind of

10:18

studied their behavior in both, is

10:20

that something that you ran

10:21

into, like their behavior being very different based

10:23

on whether they were like in the wild or like in

10:25

a zoo? It can, though. I mean, there's

10:27

also a level of they behave

10:29

different sometimes at different sites

10:31

at different zoos. With

10:33

zoos, it kind of depends on what the

10:35

social group composition is, what

10:37

their enclosure is like, how

10:39

much space there is, whether there's kind of a

10:41

lot of arburial things to

10:43

climb on or not. Generally,

10:45

in captivity, they tend

10:47

to spend a lot more time resting

10:49

and

10:49

socializing. Because they don't need to spend as much

10:52

time having to travel around or

10:54

forage. But --

10:54

Sure. -- good zoo enclosure will usually give

10:57

them enrichment. So they have, like,

10:59

some foraging tasks to do. If

11:01

they have enough space in areas to

11:03

climb, they do get energetic. When

11:05

I studied the SpiderMonkeys at

11:07

the Brookfield zoo in the

11:09

Chicago area. They had this nice

11:11

enclosure with these kind of

11:13

fake trees. And so there was kind of a rhythm to their

11:15

day where they'd spend a lot of time

11:17

resting and grooming during certain

11:19

parts of the day, and then they'd just get really

11:21

energetic particularly

11:24

closer to around the time that this

11:26

year would close, and they'd be going

11:28

into their nighttime enclosures where

11:30

they get fed all the really exciting

11:31

food, and then then they would

11:34

really pick up an activity.

11:35

So, like,

11:36

I got my treats

11:37

I get I

11:40

too get a little energized when I get a little tree.

11:42

You know, you're coming home from a day of work. You're

11:44

like, I'm gonna stop and get myself a little candy bar

11:46

179

11:46

something. Just picks you right up. I feel like I can relate to

11:49

that. Yeah. For

11:49

SpiderMonkeys, that would be really good sugary

11:52

ripe fruit. I have seen

11:54

primates go absolutely bonkers

11:57

for, like, grapes. I feel

11:59

like grapes is a lot of times, like, when I see them

12:01

in, like, in zoos, they'll give them grapes is like

12:03

it in enough to, like, use it in

12:05

training, you

12:05

know, like, if you like, to incentivize a

12:07

behavior. Like, you do a good thing, you get a

12:09

grape. Yeah. It's SpiderMonkeys are ripe

12:11

fruit specialists, and what that means

12:13

is they like to wait

12:15

until fruit is really ripe. At that

12:17

point, it's sweeter Sometimes they even

12:19

actually wait for certain fruits to kind of

12:21

ferment a little. Oh. So

12:24

there's a a fruit called spondius.

12:26

It was one that

12:28

was around my field station

12:30

and kind of had this slow fruiting

12:32

season where, like, they if had

12:34

the fruits and they turn green 179 they'd

12:36

slowly turn a brighter kind of

12:38

yellow orange color, and they'd

12:40

wait for them to get to that yellowish

12:42

orange color. And that's when they get sweetest.

12:45

They're most easy to digest.

12:47

But that's also studies have

12:49

shown that they actually can have,

12:51

like, three to five percent alcohol

12:53

by the time that the spider monkeys

12:55

actually go and forage on them. Is

12:57

this intentional? Are

13:00

they, like, seeking out an alcohol content?

13:03

So Possibly, it's

13:06

hypothesized that our

13:08

taste for alcohol actually comes

13:10

from being kind of

13:12

ripe fruit specialist ourselves. And basically,

13:14

when the fruit ripens to the point

13:16

that it kind of over ripens 179 starts

13:18

to ferment, It's kind of that fine

13:20

line between you want the fruit when

13:22

it's like at its best,

13:24

but not until it's gone off

13:26

too long. But it seems like

13:28

we may have developed a taste for both

13:30

sugar and low

13:32

levels of alcohol as being

13:34

kind of rewarding

13:35

together. Oh, as like a little

13:37

sign, like this one's fermented, this

13:39

one's good. Yeah. Oh,

13:41

that's so interesting. I never heard that

13:43

before, but that's so cool.

13:45

I feel like I also kinda like fruit

13:47

when it's just a little what

13:49

I think is maybe considered by a

13:51

lot of people to be like overwrit. You

13:54

know, like when your 179- -- when your grapes start to get a

13:56

little soft or when the bananas got a lot of

13:58

brown specks on

13:59

it, I'm like, that's good stuff. Right?

14:01

The

14:01

only guy I like bananas is well.

14:03

Thank

14:03

you. The brown

14:06

speckles on the banana can be a little bit of a

14:08

polarizing thing, but I'm definitely I

14:11

like it to have a good solid coating of

14:13

brown specks on

14:13

it. That's when it's like, oh, it's so sweet.

14:15

Right.

14:16

Great. Specialist. Okay. If this

14:18

is your first time listening to

14:20

just the zoo of us, what we do is

14:22

we rate animals out of ten in

14:24

the categories of effectiveness ingenuity

14:27

and aesthetics. First step is effectiveness.

14:29

How well this animal is adapted

14:32

physically? Things built into its

14:34

body to let it thrive

14:36

where it lives, do the things it's trying

14:38

to do. You mentioned this 179 an

14:40

arboreal animal that spends

14:42

it's life, you know, living in the treetops.

14:44

It is also a, like you said,

14:46

a ripe fruit specialist who eats a

14:48

lot of fruit. So I'm

14:50

I'm curious to know what do you give

14:52

SpiderMonkeys out of ten for

14:54

effectiveness?

14:55

Definitely a ten out of ten. They are

14:57

special adapted to in our

14:59

vorghil environments. They can

15:01

fly through the trees. They do what's

15:03

called semi brachial. Oh.

15:06

So true brachial is kind

15:08

of what you see if you were a kid and you were on

15:10

the monkey bars swinging under the bars

15:13

swinging your arms. Only

15:15

eights can truly do that, but because

15:17

SpiderMonkeys use their tail, they kind

15:19

of cheat and do

15:21

the semi brachiation thing where the tail

15:23

helps kind of, like, don't have the

15:26

same range of mobility in their

15:28

shoulders that monkeys but with the tail

15:30

kind of assisting them, that

15:32

propels them to kind of fly through

15:34

the forest. And it's amazing.

15:36

Like, it is very hard to keep up on

15:38

the

15:38

ground. The Spider Man is flying in the trees. They

15:40

are so fast.

15:41

I know with a lot of, like, other arboreal

15:44

animals that that spend a lot of

15:46

time up in the branches and things like that,

15:48

that long tail, even

15:50

for animals that don't have like a

15:52

prehensile tail, it's really good

15:54

for like keeping balance. Is that kind

15:56

of what they use theirs for? Or is it more for

15:58

like actual structural

15:59

support? It's for

16:01

structural support, and I mean, most

16:03

tails primate tails they do use for

16:05

balance. Most primate tails are

16:07

not prehensile. So really balances

16:09

all they're good for, but with SpiderMonkey

16:11

tails because they have that prehensile

16:13

tail and it's so muscular.

16:16

It's useful for support. They actually

16:18

can really use it like an extra

16:20

hand. So when I worked with SpiderMonkeys

16:22

179 captivity, sometimes we have

16:24

to sneak some food to one of the lower

16:26

ranking monkeys. And there'd be a

16:28

higher ranking monkey like and we'd only

16:30

interact through the wire mesh for safety.

16:32

But they could stick their tails out of the mesh. And there was

16:34

one of them with that she'd stick her tail

16:36

out of the mesh

16:37

179, like, root in my pockets. To

16:39

see if I had anything hidden. Just

16:43

checking to see if you've got any hidden

16:45

treats. Oh my

16:47

gosh. That's so

16:48

cute. They're cheeky like that.

16:50

I'm wondering, like, if they're spending a lot of

16:52

time running around in the trees, what is

16:54

their sort of perception of the

16:56

world look like as far as, like, their sensory

16:58

input? Are they mostly, like, relying

17:00

on vision or

17:02

hearing? Like, what what does their input

17:05

look

17:05

like? So a bit definitely vision,

17:08

hearing, and smell. They probably rely on

17:10

smell and chemical communication a

17:12

bit more than us. They

17:14

also have this actually kind

17:16

of funny vision system. Some

17:18

of the monkeys in the Americas have the same

17:20

sort of thing where All the males

17:22

are diaper mats, which means that

17:24

they basically are color blind, but then

17:26

-- Mhmm. -- some of the females are trico

17:29

mats and can see

17:30

color, but not all of them are. It's genetic, which

17:32

they end up with. It's like having

17:34

a superpower.

17:36

Yeah. And it's

17:39

something that actually if you can especially in the

17:41

trees, if you can see the

17:43

difference between the color red and green, that gives

17:45

you an advantage of being

17:47

able to see your right fruit sometimes,

17:49

but it's strange that for

17:51

the African and Asian monkeys,

17:53

as well as apes, we're all

17:56

having that trichromatic color vision,

17:59

but in the monkeys in the

18:01

Americas, it's just really uneven which

18:03

species are diplomats or

18:05

trichromats or a mix of

18:06

those. Does that have some sort of implication

18:08

about, like, the evolutionary history?

18:11

Of the monkeys of the

18:12

Americas? Like, did they maybe, like, split off before

18:15

we all figured out the

18:17

the color vision thing? Yeah. It's

18:19

it seems like what happened is the answer

18:22

of that lineage was

18:24

not a trachromat must have been a dichromat

18:26

that didn't have good color vision.

18:28

And then it independently evolved

18:31

in some malignages, but not

18:33

all. You

18:34

know, I've also heard about difference

18:37

between the trichromat and trichromat vision

18:39

in animals that live, you know, in the

18:41

forest where being able to tell red from green

18:43

would be extremely helpful. That,

18:46

like, the lack of being able to tell red

18:48

from green very well is

18:51

very helpful for predators

18:53

that have, like, reddish to

18:56

brownish fur, like big cats.

18:58

Like -- Oh. -- tigers with, like, orange

19:01

fur. So, like, if their prey can't tell the difference between

19:03

green and orange, it's really difficult for them to

19:05

see a

19:05

tiger. I learned that from Titus Williams. He told

19:07

me that on our

19:08

tiger episode. And

19:09

I have thought about it every single this is probably the

19:11

fifth time I've talked

19:12

about that on this podcast because it just blew my

19:14

mind and I think about it every single day. But

19:16

for the SpiderMonkey's purpose,

19:18

Do they to be afraid of

19:19

jaguars? Oh,

19:20

they are very afraid of jaguars for

19:23

good reason. So being

19:25

able to tell a reddish

19:27

orange to brown from

19:29

green would be extremely helpful in not

19:31

getting eaten by

19:31

jaguars, I would think. Yeah. That

19:33

makes sense. Are

19:35

Jaguar's kinda like public enemy number one for the SpiderMonkey?

19:38

Probably, there are some places in South

19:40

America where Harvey Eagle might be

19:42

even scarier, but they don't have

19:45

those in Costa Rica where I

19:46

worked. So Jaguar was the scariest

19:48

thing they had to worry about. I

19:50

say that, but also I feel like I've seen

19:52

videos online of monkeys messing with

19:55

Jaguars, like, just for funzy's.

19:56

Interesting. Well, so the thing with

19:59

jaguars, they're ambush predators.

20:02

So, like, if they see you and

20:04

you don't see them, that's when you're in

20:06

trouble. So for

20:08

monkeys, when they see a predator,

20:11

it is really important to vocalize or throw

20:13

things or just make a lot of motion

20:15

so that the predator knows the jig

20:17

is up because they're not gonna attack

20:19

when they don't they don't have the

20:21

advantage of the surprise attack.

20:24

Oh, sure.

20:24

It's not usually. So they're kind of

20:26

finding strength in, like, numbers, like alerting

20:29

each other and they have like a like a little

20:31

alarm

20:31

system. Yeah. So I was actually just

20:33

talking to a colleague about this because we

20:35

were just comparing some of our field stories

20:38

we were talking about the fact that,

20:40

like, sometimes you may not have actually seen

20:42

a jaguar, but a jaguar probably

20:44

might have seen you.

20:46

Oh. That is

20:48

terrifying. We have Jaguar's

20:51

at our zoo here

20:54

in Jacksonville. The Jacksonville Zoo has a

20:56

really beautiful jaguar exhibit. And

20:58

just like a week or two ago, I was

21:00

there. They had this little table set

21:02

out with like a keeper who was giving

21:04

information about jaguars and on the table they had

21:07

a real jaguar

21:09

skull. Mhmm. And this

21:11

thing was the cronchiness

21:14

skull I've ever seen in my

21:16

life. This was like a complete

21:18

powerhouse. The fact that, like,

21:20

SpiderMonkeys have that. To

21:22

deal with on a daily basis,

21:24

like and the fact that they're not just getting

21:26

completely wrecked left and right, I think has to

21:28

speak a lot to their agility.

21:31

Hey there, we're gonna take a

21:33

quick break to hear from a couple of the other shows on

21:35

the maximum fun

21:36

network. When we get back, we're gonna rate

21:39

ingenuity and aesthetics for SpiderMonkeys, so

21:41

stick around.

21:45

They

21:45

can be anywhere at your office,

21:47

in your car, and they are wrong.

21:49

My mom says

21:50

that the gray house didn't exist, but

21:52

she's wrong. He just does it wrong.

21:54

Someone in your life is wrong about

21:57

so something, something small,

21:59

something weird, something

22:01

vitally important. Only one person

22:03

has the courage to tell them just

22:05

how wrong they

22:06

are. You

22:06

know what you did was wrong, but

22:09

your daughter is a liar who eats

22:11

garbage.

22:11

They call

22:13

me judge John Hodgman. Listen

22:15

to me on the judge John Hoffman Podcast. If someone

22:17

in your life is doing you wrong, don't

22:19

just take it. Take it to court.

22:21

Submit your case at maximum fund

22:23

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22:25

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22:29

Hi. I'm Ketchup. And I'm

22:32

socks. And I'm ball bearing.

22:35

And I'm pigeons. And I'm

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towers. And I'm cardboard.

22:40

Surprise. We're actually humans.

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23:14

And since you mentioned that, you know, they're relying

23:16

a lot on informing each

23:18

other of danger and kind

23:20

of falling back on their bonds with each other and and

23:23

finding strength in numbers and

23:25

socialization. That is a great transition

23:27

into the next category. That

23:30

we rate animals on, which is

23:32

ingenuity. So this is like behavioral adaptations,

23:34

things the animal is doing to solve problems

23:37

it faces, ways it can kinda, you know,

23:39

get out of trouble or

23:41

conquer obstacles that it faces. What do you

23:43

give SpiderMonkeys out of ten for

23:44

ingenuity? Or

23:45

they are definitely a ten out of ten.

23:47

It's gotta be right. I feel like there's

23:49

a high bar with primates in

23:52

ingenuity.

23:52

Yeah. Well, I mean, I would say that's true of all

23:55

primates, but a especially

23:57

SpiderMonkeys. There's actually some

23:59

cognitive tasks in captivity there

24:01

where they've performed comparably

24:03

to orangutans into hosies.

24:05

And better than gorillas, better

24:07

than twitch 179 monkeys too. And it kind

24:09

of depends which task. I think if you

24:12

were to ask say, if a kombucha

24:14

monkey or a spider monkey was smarter, I

24:16

would say, it depends on what sort of

24:18

task and who's more motivated. Right.

24:20

So the questions are better tool users. They

24:22

use tools a lot more. They're the best of

24:24

the monkeys in the Americas and probably the monkeys

24:27

overall. There's only been a

24:29

handful of spider

24:31

monkeys using tools observed in the wild,

24:33

and I'm one of the very lucky people that have

24:35

gotten to see that. Really,

24:37

what were they using? Well, I got

24:39

to watch this juvenile spider monkey

24:41

break off a stick into the

24:43

end of it and then use the tube

24:45

179 to scratch the underside of

24:47

her butt and tail.

24:49

Well, that's not a

24:55

particularly a glamorous

24:56

moment, but that was

24:57

very exciting for me. I

25:00

would have been losing it. Yes.

25:02

Watching a monkey craft its own butt

25:05

scratcher.

25:06

What a what a blessing? we

25:10

basically between my colleague and I, we've

25:12

had three observations. At our

25:14

field side of that. And I was

25:16

hoping to see it was during our

25:18

master's research, we were hoping to see more of it. We

25:20

still haven't seen more of

25:22

it. So It's just kind of a random

25:24

observation that's only happened a few

25:25

times. Now, did it seem to

25:28

you? Like, this was something that,

25:30

like, since you said you saw this multiple

25:32

times. Like, three three times you said that

25:34

you observed this. Does it seem like it was

25:36

something that was a behavior that was

25:39

being passed from one monkey to the

25:41

other or something that was just like

25:43

a spontaneous idea that just

25:45

happened to like come up multiple

25:46

times.

25:47

I think it's the latter. It's hard to tell,

25:50

but the other two observations were

25:52

both adult females. My colleague, Stacey

25:54

Lynnfield, saw that. And she saw it

25:56

in two different SpiderMonkey communities.

25:59

So given that it's

26:01

happened a couple times and

26:04

different individuals, different communities,

26:06

but doesn't happen frequently. I

26:08

think it's just probably

26:11

independent innovation. If we'd seen it more

26:13

often than I would have thought there'd be a socially

26:15

transmitted aspect, but it

26:17

seems so

26:17

rare. It's just like a call that

26:20

they have. Where they're, like, my

26:22

buttaches. Like, I have

26:24

to listen to your heart. Your heart

26:26

will show you the way

26:28

how did she wanna stick and turn it into a blood scratcher? It's just

26:30

like a deeply ingrained instinct in

26:33

the primate brain. It's

26:35

like your buttage is it

26:37

is time.

26:39

Masters of innovation. Yes.

26:42

It's

26:42

like a ceremonial like, oh, it's your right

26:44

of passage. It's time for you to craft

26:47

your first but scratcher. I

26:51

would love it if they had like a family heirloom

26:53

of like this was the but scratcher

26:55

that your great grandmother crafted out

26:58

of a stick and now it's passed

27:00

on to you. Well, I'm

27:02

gonna say one of the greatest regrets

27:04

of my life is that not collect the stick

27:06

or take pictures of it or keep

27:08

it

27:08

forever. I don't know what I was thinking.

27:12

But

27:12

at least they get to keep their butt scratcher.

27:14

I said

27:15

she probably dropped it.

27:17

Oh, yeah. She probably didn't exactly

27:19

cherish it the way that you we

27:21

would have. I'm sure you would have taken very good care of maintaining

27:23

that butt

27:23

scratcher. It just didn't even occur to me. And

27:26

then later when we're writing about

27:28

it, really, if I taken it and taken a picture

27:30

and saved, then we could have identified what tree

27:32

it came from or if it's like a

27:34

tree bark that might have some medicinal

27:36

properties. Oh,

27:38

yeah. There's

27:39

even thought of that. I hadn't

27:41

thought of that until you said that. But, yeah,

27:43

I wonder if there is something going on there

27:45

where it was like a particular type of tree bark

27:47

that

27:47

is, like, especially soothing on

27:49

the butt image. Well, there

27:51

is also both

27:54

Spider and Capucian monkeys to this

27:56

leaf rubbing. And sometimes when they

27:58

do it, there's certain plants like there's a

28:00

plant called Piper that

28:02

actually kind some anti mosquito properties.

28:05

So it's kind of a

28:08

natural repellent. Now,

28:10

I live in Florida against

28:12

a pond, and I can tell

28:14

you that there is nothing in life more

28:16

valuable than mosquito repellent.

28:19

Yes. Having spent a lot of time

28:21

in a very swampy rainforest, I won a

28:23

hundred percent degree. That was

28:25

probably like item number one on their agenda.

28:27

They're like, we gotta figure out how to do something about

28:29

these bugs. This is too much. You

28:31

mentioned that a lot of your research was on

28:33

social interactions and

28:35

social behavior of these monkeys and how

28:37

and why they form

28:40

friendships. So I I wanted to kind

28:42

of talk a little bit about that, like do what

28:44

does SpiderMonkey friendships look

28:45

like? Well, so part of it is the time

28:48

they spend together. So one of the

28:50

cool things about spider monkeys that may be

28:52

really interested in them is they live in

28:54

these social systems that are called vision

28:56

fusion. What that means is

28:58

instead of being in cohesive social group or

29:00

ever ends with each other all the time,

29:02

but they have this larger community, but

29:04

they can form these really flexible

29:06

subgroups that are always changing. So

29:08

they can join up with a few individuals 179

29:12

then go off on their own or just

29:14

forge with offspring and then

29:16

go back to a tree with lots of other

29:18

monkeys and forage

29:19

together. So it's actually an adaptation

29:21

to reduce feeding competition.

29:23

Oh. If

29:24

there's a lot of a tree. You don't wanna compete with them. You can

29:26

go off on your own. But

29:29

when there's lots of fruit and there's less

29:31

competition, you can come back together. But

29:33

I really don't think it's interesting because it offers them

29:35

a bit of kind of social choice.

29:38

And so when you see monkeys

29:40

traveling together, a lot, feeding together,

29:43

socializing together, it

29:45

really reflects this choice of

29:47

social preference. And so just who they're hanging

29:49

out with regularly and how often they're

29:51

hanging out is part of

29:52

it. When you say social preference, do

29:54

you mean like have certain

29:56

individuals that they just prefer spending

29:58

time with?

29:59

Yes. They're best friends.

30:02

Yes. There's actually there

30:05

two adult females that my field

30:07

assistants and I used to call the

30:08

BFFs. They were Halo

30:12

and Leila. We gave them

30:14

names. But they were

30:17

the two monkeys that could be seen together

30:19

the most. And when I analyzed

30:21

my data, it absolutely bore that out that they had

30:23

the closest relationship that they were spending the

30:26

most time together. And

30:28

they both had offspring that

30:30

would play together. They were

30:32

really cute. Like, I remember

30:34

one time seeing them

30:37

huddling and grooming

30:37

together. And just the way they were they

30:40

would, like, lean on each other and snuggle was

30:42

really adorable. I

30:45

love seeing like this display

30:47

of like tenderness. Between

30:49

I think especially when you see it in primates, it

30:52

feels like so resonant with the human

30:54

brain that's like, oh, yes. Me

30:56

too. Right? But would you see them

30:58

just like, loving on each other. That is

31:00

just blissful. I love

31:01

that. We see that

31:04

I see this in the Bonobos

31:06

in our zoo. watching the Bonobos.

31:09

Oh,

31:09

you have Bonobos at your zoo.

31:11

I love Bonobos. Watching

31:14

them is always really incredible

31:16

because how like, the the sort

31:18

of, like, tenderness and sweetness they show each

31:20

other. And then, you know,

31:21

like, one of them will kinda get annoyed with the other

31:23

and push them away. But then a couple

31:25

minutes later, they're right back to it. You know, it's very

31:27

much like when you get in a little spat with your

31:29

family member. And then, like, a couple

31:31

days later, it's like it never happened.

31:33

Yeah. I'm wondering like, you

31:36

know, with any sort of animal that

31:38

has a lot of, like, very close

31:40

social structures and things like that, you

31:42

see any sort of recurring

31:45

conflicts pop up between them? And do they

31:47

have a sort of like conflict

31:48

resolution? Like, strategy?

31:52

Actually, so that's been

31:54

studied really well on some primates. I have some

31:56

observations of it. But not

31:58

enough to really be enough data

32:00

to look conclusively at it. But one thing

32:02

you do see is

32:04

after sometimes the females get in

32:06

a spat usually kind of over

32:08

foraging conflict and feeding.

32:11

They'll sometimes reconcile what

32:13

they'll do is they'll embrace hug it

32:15

out. Yeah. So they'll hug it out.

32:17

SpiderMonkey's actually 179 funny way of embracing.

32:19

What they do is they hug like we

32:21

would, but they also do this what's

32:23

called pecs sniffing, which looks like they're like sniffing each

32:25

other's armpits. They've actually got a glands

32:27

there that they can smell

32:30

but they do

32:30

the, like, the snip and the hug together. Oh,

32:33

that's adorable. Because, like,

32:35

that's so funny because it's, like,

32:37

we do that too. You know, like, hugging me out with

32:39

with somebody that you just had an argument with

32:41

is, you know, a a great way to sort of,

32:43

like, relieve tension 179 and

32:46

kinda clear the air a little bit. I don't know why we lost touch

32:48

with the pit

32:49

sniffing. We should bring that back.

32:51

I mean, it seems to be a spider monkey specific

32:54

thing. 179 I have done

32:56

some kind of comparative research with

32:58

chimpanzees 179 bonobos and spider

33:00

monkeys. And I think there's actually kind of

33:02

some interesting parallels in

33:04

the way that they do these reconciliation and

33:06

reassurance esters where each

33:08

species does them a little bit

33:09

differently, but there's kind of overlap in how

33:12

they're done. Oh, sure.

33:14

Some similarities between like

33:16

orangutan conflict resolution and

33:18

chimp and and Spider Monkey conflict

33:21

resolution. Yeah. How

33:23

does the, like, social structure

33:25

of Spider Monkey groups

33:26

affect, like, the child care

33:29

of the babies? So, spider

33:31

monkeys are one of the species where mothers

33:33

pretty much do all the

33:35

care, but what the spider

33:37

monkey mothers will often do is

33:40

travel in what we call nurse day parties where there's

33:42

a few different females traveling with their

33:45

offspring that gives kind of a few

33:47

more eyes keep an eye on what's

33:49

going on. There was, for example,

33:51

one time at my field site where

33:53

one of my colleagues observed a

33:55

teera kind of approaching up to one of the kids 179 one

33:57

of the females chased it off and

34:00

having more eyes is always good. And

34:02

then also provides opportunities for

34:04

the little infants and gymnastics to

34:06

socialize

34:06

together. Yeah. They're

34:07

probably learning too, like, probably learning quite a

34:09

bit. Oh, they have so much

34:11

to learn, and it's really fun to

34:13

watch that process. Does

34:15

it seem like the the moms that are in the nursery group? Does

34:17

it seem like they're intentionally teaching

34:20

the babies? I

34:22

I feel like I've seen this with some, like, other types of primates where it seems to

34:24

have to kinda sit down and, like, do something very simply

34:26

for the baby to

34:27

learn. It

34:30

depends. It's probably a lot more

34:32

passive observation especially with things like

34:34

foraging, but there are sometimes cases

34:36

like when you kind of see a mother

34:38

encouraging and offspring. So

34:40

for example, One thing that SpiderMonkeys

34:42

do for the kids is when

34:44

the juveniles start to travel

34:46

independently of

34:48

mom, it's still hard for them to do things because they're smaller.

34:50

So because SpiderMonkeys, like, fly through

34:52

the trees and come across these large gaps

34:55

that are kinda scary, For

34:57

some of the larger gaps, what moms

34:59

or sometimes other individuals will

35:01

do, is they'll basically form a bridge

35:03

between the branches where, like,

35:05

They've got their hands out at one end and 179 feet or tail

35:08

out at the other end.

35:10

And the Juvenilets can basically use their

35:12

back as a bridge to cross

35:14

that gap. Oh, I'm gonna cry. That's so

35:16

cute. It's so adorable, but it's

35:18

actually funny seeing kind of the variation in

35:20

that. Like,

35:22

there's been times I've seen a mom make a bridge and the gym and I

35:24

was like, no, mom. I don't eat it. I'm the

35:26

one on my own and that

35:30

there's another really cool observation I had where

35:32

I saw Lila actually

35:36

basically cross a

35:38

big gap leaving her daughter Laura Lai on the other tree

35:40

behind and then kind of waiting and

35:42

encouraging her to make the leap herself.

35:44

This

35:45

is an extremely relatable experience. Yeah. It it was

35:47

I I wrote a blog post about it a long time. It

35:50

was just really adorable because Laura

35:52

Lai was clearly kind of scared and

35:54

hesitantly lives

35:56

like sitting at the other tree, kind of waiting and encouraging,

35:58

and Laurel Life finally did it.

36:00

Oh, but it's it's really cool

36:02

to see those, like, little moments of

36:05

those offspring achieving independence and

36:08

mastery over their

36:09

environments? Yeah. I I have

36:12

two kids. And so

36:14

I've definitely been the one,

36:15

179, in the pool. There's a lot of times that we'll, like,

36:18

get in the pool and then be like, you could do it,

36:20

jump on in. That

36:22

is a very relatable

36:23

experience. It was

36:24

pretty normal. In your time, like,

36:27

observing the spider monkeys and watching them

36:29

and and researching what they're

36:31

doing, I did wanna ask, you know, we've talked about the

36:33

butt scratcher, but I did wanna ask if

36:35

there was any time that you are watching

36:38

them 179 you saw them

36:40

do something that

36:40

was, like, really surprising or really caught you

36:43

off guard that kinda, like, stuck with you.

36:45

I mean, I definitely think

36:46

that the butt scratching is the most

36:50

exciting. That

36:51

is very cool. That is very innovative.

36:53

I I will describe there is something

36:55

mysterious that I found

36:58

intriguing that I still puzzle over. There one

37:00

time that my field

37:02

assistants and I were walking up the road

37:04

that goes to

37:06

the forest. 179 it's just a dirt

37:08

road, but we saw,

37:10

like, up ahead on the road, it 179, like, looks

37:12

like mammals just sitting in the road. We look

37:15

with our binoculars. And it's a whole group of

37:17

male spider monkeys just sitting in the

37:19

middle of the road on the

37:21

ground. Oh. And so SpiderMonkeys

37:24

are usually fairly smart

37:26

animals. They know that roads are

37:28

probably risky. There's not a lot of traffic on that road, so

37:30

it wasn't a huge risk. But they don't come down

37:32

to the ground too often. And

37:34

when they do, they're usually very vigilant.

37:36

So to just see them sitting

37:38

in the middle of the road, Like,

37:40

they're all just kinda sitting together. It was like they were. So having

37:43

some sort of mysterious conference going on,

37:45

I don't know, it was weird. And

37:47

once we started approaching, then

37:49

they all got up and, like, went into the trees

37:51

and

37:51

crossed. And I'm so

37:54

baffled.

37:54

You crashed their party. Yeah. My

37:57

only hypothesis, I don't know if this is accurate or not, but there

37:59

are at other sites groups of

38:01

male spider monkeys doing these territorial

38:03

raids on the ground.

38:06

Where they go into another Spider Monkey's community and they're really,

38:08

like, sneaky, they walk single

38:10

file very silently to,

38:14

like, often kind of encroach on and attack individuals

38:16

in the other community. I don't

38:18

know if it's related to that or

38:22

not, but I was wondering if they were planning to

38:24

go to a neighboring territory or

38:26

something, but I don't know. It was just

38:28

such such a

38:30

strange

38:30

thing.

38:31

was just a meeting of the Spider

38:33

Monkey Council. It was just having a

38:35

little

38:35

a little railroad, a little

38:38

committee meeting. That you weren't invited to. And then you shut up and they were

38:40

like, oh, well, I suppose we're

38:42

done here.

38:44

Or maybe they just had

38:47

some extra fermented fruit.

38:50

And maybe just needed somewhere

38:52

flat to lie down for

38:54

a little while. They were

38:58

having a boy's night. That's all it was.

39:01

Boy's night out. Did seem like

39:03

when they got up and walked

39:04

away, were they maybe walking a little wobbly? Not that

39:06

I noticed. I

39:09

would be spooked. Feel

39:12

like I would be kinda like, what do y'all plan? I would feel like they were trying to

39:14

ambush

39:15

me. Yeah. It

39:16

it was disconcerting. It

39:19

was so strange. Since we

39:21

were talking about the babies being

39:24

adorable and how it's just

39:26

unbearably cute to see the way that

39:28

these monkeys can show

39:30

tenderness towards each other. I did wanna

39:32

talk about aesthetics for spider

39:34

monkeys, which is the final category that we rate

39:36

animals on. This is just

39:38

straightforward how

39:40

whether it's cute or beautiful or cool

39:42

or just how nice you find this animal to

39:44

look at

39:44

aesthetically. What do you give them out of ten

39:46

for aesthetics? Oh, they are definitely

39:49

a ten out of ten. They are the most adorable babies. And

39:51

when you see how elegant they are in the trees,

39:53

it's just

39:53

amazing. They do have this sort

39:56

of like

39:58

very fluid motion about them. Like, they're

40:01

so adept at moving between

40:03

the tree branches. They're

40:06

like flying ballerinas. They are I

40:08

I feel like seeing a photo of them

40:10

doesn't really do them

40:11

justice. I feel like you need to see them, like,

40:13

in motion. Yeah. You

40:15

have to situating moves. You know what is

40:17

funny? What kinda gets me about any sort of

40:19

like arboreal primate, I suppose,

40:22

is the ratio of the length of their arms to

40:24

their legs.

40:26

How they end up having these, like, their arms

40:28

way longer than their legs, which makes them

40:30

look a little silly when they're standing 179

40:32

they think. Yeah.

40:35

A little bit. But it looks it makes perfect sense if you

40:37

see them hanging down from their tail and their feet and they

40:39

have these beautiful long arms

40:42

and the

40:44

Central American SpiderMonkeys have these, like, what

40:46

we call black gloves. It's basically the

40:48

legs and arms are just from

40:51

the down black. And when you

40:54

see the thumb hanging down, it looks like they're

40:56

wearing elbow gloves, like they're going

40:58

to the offer or

40:59

something. That's a look. As

41:02

you were describing them, I I just threw,

41:04

you know, SpiderMonkey into Google Image Search.

41:06

And I do see a picture describing

41:09

that we're talking about have this sort of like

41:11

tan colored

41:11

fur, but then these sort of like half

41:14

sleeve gloves. That is a

41:16

good look. I love that. It looks

41:17

like a very elegant

41:18

when you see, like, a cat that has, like, the smoky

41:20

point markings like a siamese cat, that's kinda what it reminds

41:22

me of. Yeah. It's kind of

41:25

a similar color pattern. They

41:27

also they have the biggest,

41:30

roundest, most expressive eyes,

41:32

like all the pictures I'm looking out of

41:34

them, They look so

41:36

just like whimsical and thoughtful

41:39

and

41:39

spirited. They

41:42

have gorgeous eyes. Yes. We have beautiful

41:44

eyes. And one of the cool things too is when the babies are young,

41:46

they have these big pink circles

41:48

around their eyes and their nose.

41:51

179 we we like to call them the

41:53

goggle eyes. And as they get older, those pink

41:56

circles start getting darker and more

41:58

pigmented. Sometimes they

42:00

back in. Since they still a bit but

42:02

I think those are the most adorable things

42:04

ever. That is very cute.

42:08

It does give them, like, a very express it makes their eyes look like

42:10

even bigger, so they end up with

42:12

these, like, cartoonishly, like, kawaii

42:16

eyes almost.

42:18

Yes. That's

42:18

exactly it.

42:20

And the way they're just

42:22

clinging to mom oh my gosh.

42:24

I that's the cutest thing I've

42:27

ever seen. They look like a little like a little

42:29

forested nymph for

42:29

something. They

42:30

are the cutest. I

42:33

can absolutely see

42:35

why you sort of fell in love with watching them and researching

42:37

them because I think if you're

42:40

gonna be, you know, spending your

42:42

career and spending a lot of

42:44

your time closely observing and watching an

42:45

animal. This is a great one to be because they're just

42:47

so darn cute. They definitely

42:50

are. Just

42:51

they're amazing to watch They're

42:53

beautiful. They're so smart. I feel

42:55

like you could, like, relate to

42:57

them well. You know, see see a lot

42:59

of primate features reflected back

43:01

at you. Yes. And that was how I fell

43:03

in love with them, was working with them in captivity,

43:06

and it was at a sanctuary that mostly had

43:08

kapuchen monkeys and a

43:10

few SpiderMonkeys. 179

43:12

I thought I wanted to study Compugen when these back seven. Then

43:14

I realized Compugen's are kind of punks. So

43:16

I don't know if these were

43:19

just they were just amazing. And just kind

43:21

of interacting with them and getting

43:23

to know them was it's hard

43:25

to explain, but it's just this kind of you

43:27

realize you have this relationship with

43:30

these animals that are so intelligent

43:32

179 they just look into your eyes 179

43:34

it's it's really amazing. Yeah. It's

43:36

like an animal that, like, when you look at them, they they look back at you when

43:39

they look to stare into your soul. It does

43:41

feel like you can you

43:44

can build a really strong connection with 179 with an incredible animal

43:46

like that. I definitely see why

43:48

you fall in love with

43:49

them. I feel like they're easy to fall

43:51

in love with. Yes. And I

43:53

I will say, like, the two species I most in love with are SpiderMonkeys

43:56

and Bonobos, and they both have

43:58

that

43:59

same effect. But no,

44:01

those are like hypnotic to look at.

44:03

Oh my god. Like, you look into your

44:05

eyes 179 you're like, do

44:07

you have powers? I feel like you're

44:09

not

44:10

listening. Are you psychic

44:10

of some kind? Like, are we having a,

44:13

like, a telepathic conversation?

44:15

179. They just like

44:17

they really like to make eye contact, and it's like they can see into your souls.

44:20

I was at the zoo one

44:22

time, and

44:24

I was at, like, the Bonobo

44:26

exhibit, and there was a

44:28

Bonobo pretty close to, like, the glass of

44:30

the viewing area. And so I

44:32

was there completely by myself and it was early

44:35

in the morning on a weekday. So there was

44:37

like nobody there at the zoo. And

44:39

so I decided that, you know, I was just

44:41

gonna take a really quick cute selfie in front

44:43

of the Bonobo viewing here. Yeah. And so I get out

44:45

my phone and I'm like getting the perfect

44:47

selfie angle and everything. 179

44:50

this Venovo, like, saw what I was doing, walked over,

44:53

and slammed on the glass with

44:55

a little fist. And I, like, jumped

44:57

and dropped my phone

45:00

then just turn and walk

45:01

away. Clearly,

45:01

you were not supposed to selfie there. You didn't do

45:03

a question. I was

45:05

like, what was that? And then

45:07

I tried to, like, explained

45:09

what had happened why I had why the

45:11

selfie I took was just like a blurry,

45:13

like, motion of my phone falling to

45:15

the ground and be like, yeah, that's because

45:17

of Bonobo. Just like bunked

45:19

me. It felt like

45:22

a very, like, intentional, like

45:25

No. I'm sure

45:25

it was. And then I never took a

45:28

selfie in front of the Bonobos again, so

45:30

clearly it

45:32

worked. Well,

45:34

before we wrap up, I'd love it if you could let our friends listening know where

45:36

they can find you. Where can people keep

45:39

up with your work? And

45:41

your research? Where can people, like, follow

45:44

along on social media? Or where do you wanna

45:46

be

45:46

found? Yeah. So the easiest way

45:48

to find me is on Twitter. MARP

45:50

SpiderMonkey. I also just started in

45:52

Instagram just in case anything happens to the

45:54

Twitter. Where are you at on Instagram?

45:58

It is also MAR SpiderMonkey. And then

46:00

I also have a website and a

46:01

blog. Awesome. And I'll have links to

46:04

everything in the

46:06

episode description. 179 people

46:08

listening can just scroll down and click

46:10

right on through, you know, if you want

46:12

to learn more about

46:14

primates and keep up with primate research, so I highly

46:16

recommend everyone go follow.

46:18

Thank you so much for your time today. It

46:20

has been

46:22

a delight I really appreciate your time and your knowledge.

46:24

And we'll talk to you later. Alright.

46:26

Thanks for having me. Thank you so much

46:28

for being

46:29

here. Bye. Bye.

46:31

Thank

46:31

you so much for listening friends. I hope that you

46:34

have fallen in love with

46:36

SpiderMonkeys along with us. If you liked what

46:38

you heard, I hope you leave behind some

46:40

kind words for us in a

46:42

review on your podcast app of choice. If you wanna hang out with us online,

46:44

we're on Facebook, Twitter, Instagram,

46:48

Discord in TikTok, links to everything will be in the

46:50

episode description below. You can send

46:52

me an email at ellen at

46:55

just the zoo of us dot com. If you have

46:57

a cool animal you'd like to hear

46:59

about. Thank you to maximum fun for having us on

47:01

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wonderful shows like the ones that you heard promos for here today.

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You can check those out and learn more about the

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47:10

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show over at maximum fun dot org. Finally,

47:14

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47:16

theme music. That is all for today.

47:18

We'll see you next week.

47:22

Thanks. Bye.

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