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2:00

We would just sit there like idiots. Fifteen

2:02

minutes as the clock

2:05

is ticking and I feel my career

2:07

just like literally flying away.

2:10

Hey everybody. Welcome

2:27

to Literally. Today is

2:29

a great one. You may or may not know the

2:31

name Ed Zwick, but

2:34

you know the movies the man

2:36

made, starting with about last night,

2:38

a little movie that he made with me

2:40

that kind of really made me in many ways.

2:43

The movie Glory, the

2:46

movie Legends of the Fall, the

2:48

movie Last Samurai, the movie

2:51

Blood Diamond, a

2:53

little television series called Thirty-Something,

2:58

notoriously one of the smartest, most

3:01

erudite. Get your vocabularies out

3:03

for this one. I

3:05

pride myself on my vocabulary. I think vocabulary

3:07

is great. And Ed Zwick

3:12

puts me to shame and I'm sure he'll unveil some

3:14

great ones for us. Be

3:16

listening for those. He has a

3:18

new book coming out, February 13th,

3:20

called Hits, Flops, and Other Illusions.

3:23

If you're interested at all in

3:26

movies, directing Hollywood,

3:29

navigating Hollywood, it is sweet. So

3:33

it's time for a little about last night reunion with

3:36

my buddy, Director Ed Zwick. The

3:45

fact that it took you writing, by

3:47

the way, great book, which

3:49

we'll get into, that it took that and

3:51

then me hosting a podcast to get us

3:53

reunited is a goddamn crime. I was so

3:56

tempted to drive to Santa Barbara just for

3:58

the sake of sitting there. the room

4:00

and seeing you and you know,

4:02

life is somehow interceded, you can't

4:04

do it because we're all so

4:06

fabulous and important. But I really

4:09

I have to tell you two things. First of

4:11

all, you know, over this time, however long

4:13

it's been, you've not written one, but two

4:16

books, both of which I've read. And I

4:18

figured and I figured this would actually

4:20

be the perfect conversation because you've gone

4:22

through that process of reinventing yourself

4:25

in your own image. And

4:30

all the various vagaries of what that really means

4:32

when you're writing that book. But

4:34

also, Troy, my assistant

4:37

had done some, we've been going through these archives

4:39

because we're putting all this stuff on. I'm

4:41

not a writer any longer or a director.

4:43

I'm a content creator and a marketer.

4:46

Yes, of course you are. Promoting myself.

4:48

But anyway, he came across this little

4:50

clip, which I'll send you of you

4:53

doing an interview during

4:55

about last night talking about special

4:57

bulletin. And it's and

5:00

it's so charming. You are so earnest

5:02

and so enthusiastic about it. It was

5:05

it touched me. And

5:07

and I'll tell you why that it pertains to

5:09

my life at this moment, too. But I just

5:11

thought you should know that. You know what? It's

5:13

so funny. I was thinking about you and your

5:15

there's so I mean, unfortunately, this or fortunately, this

5:17

conversation could go on for five hours. And

5:20

but I was thinking about fucking special

5:23

bulletin, which a lot

5:25

of people don't know was TV doesn't

5:27

really live on. It was so ahead

5:29

of its time. It was so good.

5:33

Like, is there a

5:35

new version and new iteration to be made? Well,

5:37

that's in fact, we're working on something which I

5:40

can't really talk about now. But there are

5:42

certain ways in which the culture has caught

5:45

up and yet we could stay ahead of it in

5:49

a different way. And maybe,

5:51

you know, offline, at least when we're done, I'll tell

5:53

you a little bit about it because you were into

5:55

it in the day. And it

5:58

will it will I think You'll dig it.

6:00

So the answer to that is yes. Fantastic.

6:05

Fantastic. Well, where, where does one

6:07

begin in the story? The

6:09

storied first. Okay. Let's talk about the book.

6:11

I'm just going to go greatest hits through the

6:13

book in particular chronological. Okay.

6:15

So how did you figure the sweet

6:17

spot of being truthful, authentic?

6:26

And then when it came to stuff that

6:28

maybe someone behaved badly

6:30

or whatever, cause

6:33

you did a great job, man. And I'll tell you,

6:35

that was for me, that's, that's

6:38

the things you've got to be able to write. If

6:40

someone was a Dick, you,

6:42

they were a Dick. And

6:46

it's your life and you're writing about it and

6:49

you have to be authentic or not write about

6:51

it. Well, this is your

6:53

view. You went right to it because that was,

6:55

that was the question that you, that I kept

6:57

asking myself, which is that I

7:00

was determined to be authentic. And

7:02

it's almost when, when you are

7:04

in relationship with someone artistically and you

7:07

praise them, but your

7:09

praise only has legitimacy.

7:12

If you're willing to criticize as well, because

7:15

it gives it, you know, it's bonafides,

7:17

it keeps its creds. And I

7:19

wanted the book, I wanted the book to have creds and,

7:22

and because this was important to me, this was,

7:24

this was about things that had meant so much

7:26

to me in my life. So

7:28

I think what I was trying to do is in those

7:31

circumstances in which people have

7:34

behaved badly. I also

7:36

went to some length to try to understand,

7:38

to empathize where they may have been in

7:40

their lives at that moment. And

7:42

to, and to, and to suggest that, that, that had

7:45

perhaps changed over time and it, and,

7:47

and that, I was not

7:50

immune from my own complicity in

7:52

some of these interactions. And I tried to be

7:55

as honest as I could

7:57

be while still being

8:01

what I know an audience wants,

8:03

which is the inside baseball stuff.

8:07

It's not about dish, although it becomes

8:09

that. Yeah, but it's not.

8:11

It's about entertainment too. This

8:13

is a book that I want people to enjoy,

8:16

and I want them to take a ride because I

8:18

was on a ride. I've been on a ride my

8:21

whole life in this regard. Some

8:25

of it, only in

8:27

very, very, very rare instances, was

8:29

there any sense of payback. Right.

8:32

Well, in fact, there were a couple of times

8:34

where you did

8:36

not name a person who clearly wanted

8:38

to pay back. Right. I

8:40

was like, who is it? I

8:43

got to figure that out. I know that executive

8:45

team. I'm going to try to start myself. I

8:47

didn't know I was up there. Do you remember

8:50

there used to be, there was this site that

8:52

used to have blinds, blind items? Yes.

8:54

Who is the director who is doing this with

8:57

this actress? Right. Everyone would play that guessing

8:59

game. I remember that a long time ago. Yeah.

9:02

The other thing I thought was great when

9:05

people who I know write books that

9:07

I love, like when Springsteen wrote his

9:09

book, and he talked so much about,

9:11

not so much, but when he talked about his

9:14

depression. I thought

9:16

it's not like we're close, close, close, close, close

9:19

buddies, but I have known him for years. Yeah.

9:21

I know. We put a Born in the

9:24

USA poster up in my apartment and About Last Night.

9:26

Yeah. I remember. But

9:28

that element that he

9:30

wrote about made me look at him and

9:32

his work in a completely

9:35

fresh way. When you

9:37

write about the stuff about your

9:39

father, I

9:42

thought was really quite beautiful, really

9:45

well written, really, really

9:47

beautiful. Beautiful. Well,

9:49

it's funny. I have a couple of really close

9:52

readers, first readers, Marshall certainly among

9:55

them, and then Adam Gopnik,

9:57

who's an old friend of mine and a brilliant

9:59

writer. and editor and they

10:02

both read it and both of them

10:04

in their various ways said to me one thing, they

10:06

said, you know, this is really good and this

10:09

is going to work, but we're going to say something

10:11

to you that you have probably said a hundred times

10:13

to actors, which is to, or other

10:16

writers, which is to say, I really

10:18

like this, but I

10:20

don't feel you in it to the degree

10:22

that I want to. And

10:26

I, you know, was taken aback for a

10:28

moment. And of course, like all great criticism,

10:30

it just galvanizes you

10:32

and I began to go

10:35

deeper. And of course, what I've learned in

10:37

my own writing, but see, Rob, I mean,

10:40

you'll dig this too. I'm accustomed

10:42

to writing revealing, scabrous,

10:45

sensitive, provocative things, but putting them

10:47

in the mouths of other people,

10:50

putting them in, you know, I have

10:52

that little firewall between me. And

10:55

so they're these beautiful people that well,

10:57

and somehow it gives me a remove

11:00

and a protection. And

11:03

so then to begin writing in the first person

11:07

made me feel very vulnerable and it

11:09

led to some very confrontative moments personally

11:12

that I'd managed to avoid, I think, by

11:14

that remove. But

11:16

I think you as an actor had maybe

11:19

dealt with that a little bit more because you're

11:21

out there and you're really

11:23

out there. And I've chosen a life

11:26

which gives me a slight remove. I'm

11:29

behind the camera. I

11:31

can have that little bit of detachment. And

11:34

in this case, it's just all naked,

11:36

you know? I thought

11:38

it was super, because again, with books like this,

11:41

if you enjoy movies, if you

11:43

enjoy entertainment, movie,

11:46

history, culture, this is

11:49

great. I mean, this is up there

11:51

for me with the Lament book. And

11:55

particularly if you want to direct, I'm

11:57

curious about what directing is or

11:59

producing. It's great, but

12:01

what it has, which elevates it, is

12:04

like with the base notes of

12:07

the stuff about you. And

12:09

there's a caption about shame, which

12:12

is fucking unbelievable. Where

12:14

it's like, it waits derisively in

12:17

the corner and puts its

12:19

hand on you and you're behind the monitor and goes,

12:21

oh really? And

12:24

it's so true. It's so

12:27

true. Well,

12:29

I mean, ironically, those

12:31

things that you are most

12:33

afraid of are the

12:35

things finally that other people relate

12:37

to. They're the things that

12:40

they find are the most universal.

12:43

And I know that in my partnership with

12:45

Marshall that at times the

12:47

value of a partnership is when you say,

12:49

all right, I have this thing, I know

12:51

it's stupid and I'm afraid to say it

12:53

because it seems it's

12:56

unflattering or it's ungainly

12:59

or unappealing or whatever. And

13:01

you sort of, it's like this little dingleberry

13:03

that you don't want to shit out into

13:05

your work and you finally do.

13:08

And then the other person says that, that's it.

13:11

Write that. And it gives

13:13

you a license and a permission to do it. And

13:16

that's probably the value of a partnership

13:19

too, of a collaboration. Well,

13:28

you know, no two travelers are exactly alike.

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get your own. I

14:43

also think it looks like this, it's what people don't say.

14:45

And it speaks as loudly as what they do

14:47

say. There's not a lot of 30 something in

14:49

it. Is that merely because you, do

14:52

you have conflicted interesting thoughts about it? Or

14:54

is it just that you got so busy

14:57

with the movie career at the very time

14:59

that it kind of exploded in the culture?

15:01

Only because 30 something

15:03

is a seminal, seminal, I always sat

15:05

back with a little bit of jealousy going, this

15:07

is our fucking movie and made it a TV

15:10

show. Where's my place in this? Thanks

15:13

very much. That's sort of true, Rob, because

15:15

in fact, Larry

15:17

Kasdan had done the big show and

15:20

John Sales had done the trial, the SACACA seven.

15:22

And we did about last night, which was just

15:25

about the stuff of a relationship.

15:28

And then it was, but nobody had

15:30

done it on TV at all. And

15:33

we went, okay. And now the irony,

15:35

of course, you know, at that point,

15:37

everybody was a fireman or a cop or

15:39

a doctor on television, right, but nobody was

15:42

a person. And

15:44

now it's

15:46

like the telescope has been turned around

15:48

and all the television is, seems to

15:51

me, is various excuses to create these

15:53

places in which people are in these

15:55

intimate relationships with each other. That

15:58

is, that's the norm. Yes,

16:00

it wasn't. You're absolutely 100% correct. Yeah,

16:03

the funny thing is that to really

16:05

write about Thirty-Something would have had to

16:07

write another book. You know, it was

16:09

the intensities

16:11

over four years at

16:14

that moment in our lives, which were

16:16

so seminal and so formative, and

16:19

who were the same age, and

16:21

we all came out of

16:23

it in different ways, and yet I

16:26

think there was some

16:29

Camelot about it.

16:31

Something golden where we were

16:33

allowed to do whatever we wanted, the way

16:36

we wanted to with no scrutiny, and we

16:38

were so absorbed with raising our own children

16:41

and with each other that we had no

16:43

real sense of what was

16:45

happening out there in the world. We knew that it

16:47

was affecting the culture, we were so self-absorbed

16:51

and working so hard

16:54

that I'm not sure that even I

16:56

could talk about it without

16:58

really devoting

17:01

more. So I gave it its due and

17:03

I tried to be fond

17:05

and truthful, but

17:07

how could it be? It was four years of my

17:09

life. I know, I want more. Well, listen,

17:12

I found a second book.

17:14

I found a second book in me. You

17:19

know, you'll go, I mean, at least for me, I

17:21

was so conscious

17:24

of the first book

17:26

of like, I think in

17:28

a good way, of the expert. I'm

17:30

asking somebody to purchase a book, sit

17:33

down, devote time with all the other entertainment

17:35

things and read it. So

17:37

you better fucking deliver. Yeah. Yeah. I

17:41

mean, because they're playing with you, just I think maybe take the

17:43

money and don't give a fuck, but that's never been me.

17:46

But in thinking of delivering, there

17:49

are certain fundamental truths

17:51

we know as storytellers. And,

17:53

you know, it's kind of like

17:55

making an album. Have I written any hits in this album?

17:58

What's the, what's the, what's the, single. Are

18:02

there too many ballads? That's

18:04

really the way I thought about it. And

18:07

then when the book did really well then I thought, okay,

18:09

I'm gonna now do a book

18:12

without thinking about any of that and see

18:14

how that does. Well that's funny because I

18:16

know, I mean I'd always wanted to write

18:18

in this voice. I'd done it

18:20

in college, I'd written journalism, I'd done other things,

18:22

I'd done some stuff in the New York Times

18:25

over time. But I never wrote

18:27

a book because I didn't think that I had a subject

18:30

until I realized that in fact I'd

18:32

had a subject for all these years and

18:35

all I needed to do was actually look

18:37

at it. And the question

18:40

that one asks, you know, in terms of

18:42

now is, well, is there another

18:45

subject that I know as well

18:47

as that? Or do I

18:49

get deeper or was there another way to approach it?

18:51

But I'm not ready quite to have

18:53

that conversation but I will admit that

18:56

there have been those stirrings because also

18:59

when I wrote screenplays or

19:02

TV shows there was a form,

19:05

it was dictated, it was like a the

19:07

scansion of a poem, a villain or a

19:09

sonnet has ABA be the rhyme scheme and

19:11

it's all there for you. The thing about

19:13

a book which I did not know,

19:15

it's a little bit

19:17

like sort of body surfing and getting caught

19:19

in the washing machine where you don't know

19:21

what is up and what is down

19:24

and how long should this be and how short

19:26

should this be and should I go

19:28

deeper internally or can that be, you know,

19:30

and what you're saying is that finally

19:32

I decided that the key was to

19:35

try to make each thing intrinsically a

19:38

readable chapter. That

19:41

it, yes, it related ultimately to some

19:44

larger thing but that everything had to

19:46

have its own gravity and

19:48

that was how I decided to write the

19:51

book. I also like the little

19:53

like punctuated with with

19:55

hit with the lists. Yeah, yeah, I

19:57

don't know. I mean there is a

20:00

one to other truth that, look,

20:04

I've taught a lot and

20:06

I really feel that there are two audiences for

20:09

the book. One are people who might know the

20:11

work and might have engaged in it

20:13

in some way or the other. But there's a

20:15

whole world of younger filmmakers

20:17

and younger writers and

20:20

it's a book that I would have liked to

20:22

have read when I was that age, somebody telling

20:24

the truth, talking about

20:26

process, but

20:28

also trying to represent something that's

20:31

in disrepair. The idea

20:33

of a certain humanist approach, the

20:35

idea of dimensional

20:37

characters or political agenda

20:40

or cultural observations, things that

20:42

have fallen away from movies to greater

20:49

degree. And I feel I want to sort of

20:52

put in a pitch for that to some degree. Well,

20:54

listen, the movie that you and I made

20:56

about last night would be a six part

20:59

Netflix. Yeah. That would not

21:01

be a movie. Can you imagine? When

21:04

I was reading that, I'd forgotten

21:06

about last night was

21:08

a big, I don't know, it was big,

21:10

but if it came out when it came

21:12

out, it was big. Summer

21:16

studio, granted it was TriStar, whatever,

21:20

but they were a studio, but a

21:22

summer studio movie and it was

21:25

four people in an apartment and

21:27

bars talking brilliantly written and she directed

21:30

and I think the acting was great.

21:32

It was a great movie. One of

21:34

my favorite things I've ever

21:36

done, it remains to this day, one of my favorite

21:38

things ever. Today,

21:41

that's not a studio summer movie, not even

21:43

a movie. That's right.

21:46

That's right. And then of course, one asks oneself,

21:48

what is a movie now? I

21:51

mean, you know, a movie, we know

21:53

that it's an E-ticket, you know,

21:55

thrill ride. We know that it's

21:57

a piece of IP. We know that it's something that's not

21:59

a movie. that is somehow

22:01

already pre-sold. But

22:05

what's happened to me is when I look at those

22:07

things, some of them that have been made by streamers,

22:10

they feel, I feel like I can

22:12

hear the meeting. I don't

22:14

feel like I can hear the screenplay. I hear the meeting

22:16

and the design to

22:22

design with the cliffhanger, that

22:24

it's designed to make you anxious and

22:27

wanna see the next, rather than have

22:29

one unique experience that has some

22:31

unity and some catharsis and some

22:34

shape to it. It

22:36

doesn't seem to have come out of some

22:39

individual's crazy mania

22:41

about what to write a story

22:43

about, but rather,

22:45

and this I think is the

22:47

legacy of Silicon Valley, is the

22:49

team. When you

22:51

pitch something now, it's

22:53

not to one person. It's

22:55

to a group. And they

22:58

are already looking for consensus in that

23:00

group. And consensus

23:03

can be the death of art. Can

23:05

be, you know, if something, the

23:08

eccentricity of one person talking to one

23:10

person is different

23:13

than trying to please and

23:15

establish this sort of unanimity, because

23:18

that's what leads to sort of the middle ground.

23:21

Well, particularly if you have

23:23

a certain sensibility, and for me, I can

23:25

identify it in particularly, I'm not gonna say it in my best when I'm

23:27

talking about comedy. I always, if

23:30

I go to theater, the joke

23:32

that makes me laugh the hardest and

23:34

loudest, if it's a theater of 100 people, I'd

23:36

say 20? Right.

23:40

Are laughing at the exact same joke

23:42

that is destroying me. Yes.

23:45

And the joke that I maybe

23:47

smile at, maybe, is

23:50

the joke that 90% of the people are

23:52

laughing at. Right, right,

23:55

right. Consensus for me

23:57

is the death of... comedy

24:00

for sure. Let me ask you about directing

24:04

actors. Yes.

24:06

That is a focus

24:08

of a book. By the

24:10

way, just as an aside, your stuff about

24:12

Matthew Broderick and Gloria is really great because

24:14

it's you dealing with an actor who

24:17

is at a difficult part in their life and you

24:19

know, is a complicated person, a great actor, and

24:22

you know, it's a moment in time. But

24:24

I just have to tell you as reading it, I, at

24:27

that exact time, found

24:29

myself at

24:31

a place called Cafe Vivaldi in

24:34

the Village with

24:36

my then girlfriend Melissa Gilbert, who you will remember

24:38

well. Well, it was now with Timmy, yes. It

24:40

was now with Timmy. Can you believe it? Yeah,

24:42

there you go. Okay. I mean, you can't make

24:45

it up. You cannot make it up. But

24:50

go ahead. And

24:52

there was a couple behind me. I

24:54

didn't know male, female. I didn't know what. I

24:57

knew there were two people. And this woman was

24:59

filibustering and heck and like

25:01

hen pecking and heckling as

25:03

I kind of turned out, I saw to be a young

25:05

man for an hour. I mean,

25:09

ruthlessly hen

25:12

pecking, filibustering. And I

25:15

look and it's Matthew Broderick. Oh, no. Lunch

25:17

with his mother. I knew where the story

25:19

was going. Yeah. Yeah.

25:22

And and this is exactly your

25:25

what you I love the

25:27

notion of her being flown down in the

25:29

private jet to rewrite Matthew's dialogue. It's amazing.

25:32

When we have no budget to pay for, you

25:34

know, the explosions and the force. No, it was,

25:38

you know, I can't believe some of the things

25:40

when I looked at, by the way, I also

25:43

looked at

25:45

about last night and I, you know, I'm not the kind of person that

25:47

looks at old work. And I don't think I've looked at it in very,

25:50

very long time. And I had such

25:52

a good time. And that's a conversation to have too.

25:54

But I also looked at glory and some other movies.

25:56

And I look at them and I kind of go,

25:58

is this really happen? What

26:03

was I thinking? And man,

26:07

that led me to those relationships. And

26:09

finally, I don't

26:12

think I could, if I were, my

26:14

life depended on it, could describe,

26:16

you know, all

26:19

the scenes in all the movies or the episodes or

26:21

whatever. But the relationships, those

26:25

moments of

26:27

real intensity with people that

26:30

I genuinely loved or

26:33

genuinely disliked or were, but

26:35

was in deep relationship with,

26:37

to think that they had somehow vanished

26:40

into the ether and asked

26:42

myself, what were they? What

26:44

did that mean? Did it

26:47

serve a kind of

26:49

promiscuity of mind that we all

26:51

have, that we want that, or

26:53

possibly even in knowing that those things are

26:55

going to end, that we abandon

26:58

ourselves to them, give ourselves to them with

27:01

the guarantee that there's some end

27:04

stop about them. And is that part of

27:06

the allure? Anyway, it led to

27:08

a lot of questions about the

27:10

lives we've chosen. We should talk

27:13

about last night. I have so many great

27:15

memories, not the least of which is

27:17

being on a bus

27:20

driving through the French countryside,

27:23

cuddling a very cute little baby. I

27:26

have the pictures, Rob, of you holding my

27:28

six month old at

27:30

that moment. Of course I remember. Amazing.

27:33

Yeah. I mean, it's

27:35

like funny that, because, you know, those were

27:37

the themes about last night was the theme of, you

27:39

know, do I say I love you? Do you move in

27:41

with me? What is monogamy? All of those things. But then

27:44

the next step was, kids

27:46

and family. And I was all

27:49

already, like I did not know,

27:51

I didn't know that raising kids

27:54

was going to be the great love of

27:56

my life, but moments like that. Yeah. inkling

28:00

for me. How

28:02

great is that? How great is that? And

28:04

I've had other moments like that. I remember when I was

28:07

making Glory and I had Jesse,

28:10

he was about three and a half running around and

28:13

Morgan Freeman, who has

28:15

this extraordinary moral authority had

28:18

met him and with

28:21

liberty and with me. And he sat me down one day,

28:23

he said, so why

28:25

don't you have another kid? And I said,

28:27

oh, well, you know, things have been so crazy

28:29

and the career and the whatever. And he just

28:31

gave me that look. And

28:33

the look was saying, what the fuck are you talking

28:35

about? He

28:38

said, you know, you gotta get it together.

28:41

And that was my version. You

28:43

know, I was maybe, you know, three and a

28:45

half years ahead of you in that regard, but

28:47

still I was then not

28:50

yet ready to take that next

28:52

step into chaos and

28:54

into the incredible

28:56

bounty and joy that it was.

28:59

And that's how it awaited me that I was somehow hesitant to

29:01

take on. And then you just think

29:03

of the chronology of it, how long ago all of

29:05

it was. It's like, I just, so

29:08

many, I love the story. You

29:10

talk about Belushi, like the doors would,

29:14

I remember that so well when the doors would

29:16

close on the L and we would just sit

29:18

there like idiots. 15 minutes

29:20

as, Well forever. As the clock

29:22

is ticking and I feel my

29:25

career just like. Flying away. Flying

29:27

away. I,

29:31

oh my God, you know, I've had Jimmy on the podcast and

29:34

he's, you know, like all of us,

29:36

he's like a different human being. Oh my God.

29:38

Oh my God. I have, I've seen him too.

29:41

Yeah, it's kind of beautiful. It's

29:43

really a beautiful thing to see

29:45

him own his size and

29:48

find some, some center

29:50

and calm and things that would not have

29:53

defined him then. And it does

29:55

suggest there is the possibility of change

29:58

for, you know, for, for people and for all of us. of

30:00

us. No, no, delightful, in fact, is what he's

30:02

become. And to me, I

30:04

texted just this week. So I have

30:06

a one man show and in my

30:08

one man show, I show very selected

30:10

clips. Yes. And I

30:12

showed the last scene where

30:15

we're dewy eyed and loving each other and

30:17

running across a grant park. She's dressed like

30:19

the farmer in the Dell. Yeah, that's the

30:21

end of the movie, by the way, shot

30:23

on the first day. Yeah. Well, remember, which

30:25

is amazing. That's amazing to me that we

30:27

that we were able to and shows to

30:30

shoot the ultimate sequence

30:32

on the very first day, be

30:34

that as it may, that scene

30:37

with no buildup in

30:39

the one man show, absolutely

30:42

crushes people. Yeah, yeah.

30:45

Yeah, rushes. And

30:48

but but I see it all the time. And then

30:50

she gets on her bike and her farmer in the

30:52

Dell outfit. And it just makes

30:54

me laugh. There's like, there's no way in

30:56

today's Hollywood. No way. Somebody

30:58

at the studio goes, I'm sorry. What is

31:01

she wearing? Well,

31:05

by the way, what you'll remember, and

31:07

this I have very fond memories of you talking

31:09

about working with actors. We

31:11

had a week of rehearsal. We

31:14

literally had the luxury

31:16

of being in a

31:18

room, talking about our

31:20

characters, doing some exercises, trying

31:23

things out. And I think

31:26

without that, I mean, obviously, you guys knew

31:28

each other. Right there. There was already that

31:30

that's your right. Yeah, but still, that,

31:33

that familiarity,

31:36

that sense of comfort that you get

31:38

to create when you have a minute

31:40

like that. Yeah, which is so rare. And

31:43

that, I think that helped it too. But

31:45

I, but I would also I said something else. I

31:47

think I even put it you haven't seen the book

31:49

yet. I'm going to I will get you a real

31:51

copy of the book when it is out, which is

31:53

soon. But

31:56

I, I look at it in terms of you and

31:58

your career as a very

32:00

seminal moment about understanding

32:04

where you can be in

32:06

comedy as opposed to just

32:08

doing straight stuff because what I saw in

32:11

that thing, yeah, you can look

32:14

at Jimmy's performance as this really

32:16

towering comedic moment, but you

32:18

need a straight man to make that work.

32:21

You know, there is no, there

32:23

is no Hardy without Laurel. Yeah.

32:26

And you said, okay, I'm gonna

32:28

go there. And obviously, since then,

32:31

you've done things that are broader and

32:33

more obvious. But in fact, that

32:35

was the subtlety of understanding the

32:37

role that made that work. I mean,

32:39

you know, Fred Astaire,

32:42

Ginger Rogers had to do everything that

32:44

Fred Astaire did, and she had to

32:46

do it backwards and in high heels.

32:48

That's right. And that, that to me

32:50

was a moment for you, a marker,

32:52

I think, where after

32:54

that, there was the possibility of taking

32:57

a left turn. Yeah. And that's

32:59

what you did. Yeah, for sure. I mean, there's no,

33:01

there's no West Wing without

33:03

the flax suit. Secret's

33:06

exactly right. I mean, there's

33:08

the distance. And like, people were always like, when

33:11

I, when I, you know,

33:13

whenever Aaron Sorkin and I

33:15

were working together, you know, people come in

33:17

and people either heard the music or they

33:19

didn't. And the first time

33:21

I heard the music was, that's right.

33:23

It was, it was Mamet, right? You bet.

33:25

And by the way, Aaron, in

33:28

a very generous way, has written the blurb for the book.

33:30

He's read it and he wrote a great,

33:32

a great blurb for the book. Oh, great.

33:34

Yeah. It's, it's, it's super

33:36

fun. Give

33:53

me some Tom Cruise stuff, baby. Come

33:56

on. Tommy, Tommy, Tommy.

34:00

We do share all these different connections.

34:03

Isn't it unbelievable? It's like

34:06

we go, every

34:08

time I see him, my

34:10

heart just bursts. I love

34:13

him so much. Yep. It

34:15

was kind of amazing because I

34:18

know when I went into Warner Brothers and said, I

34:20

want to make a movie

34:23

about 19th century samurai and

34:26

American glitter, it

34:29

was one conversation. When I went in

34:31

there and said, I want to make a movie about

34:33

19th century samurai with Tom Cruise, it

34:36

became a movie. Without

34:40

his absolute crazy

34:42

gonzo, utter

34:47

pedal to the metal approach, something

34:49

like that would never have happened. No.

34:53

But he also, what was remarkable to

34:55

me was his generosity

34:58

to our vision that he

35:00

was there to serve that movie and

35:03

to serve us. And

35:05

not to say I'm putting myself over the

35:07

marquee. He's done movies since then in which

35:10

they're different. In which

35:12

he is the prime

35:14

mover and should be and deserves to

35:16

be. But his approach to this was

35:19

remarkable. And

35:23

every director tells you this story

35:25

about him. And

35:28

if you say, listen, I'd like you to do this take

35:31

upside down standing on your head

35:33

while blowing bubbles, he'll say,

35:35

well, we'll try that. He'll

35:39

go there. He'll have his own thoughts about

35:41

it that he'll want to be heard to as he

35:43

deserves to. I

35:46

do. There's a thing that you probably know that I

35:49

had not known because I had met him.

35:51

I met him with you and Emilio and

35:54

Dizzee first then. And we

35:56

even talked about Legends of the Fall once, he

35:58

and I. this thing

36:01

where it maybe happened two or

36:03

three times, you know, two in

36:05

the morning and it's raining and shit's

36:07

flying and you're behind, whatever. And somebody comes

36:10

up to you and like grabs you and

36:13

the shoulders say, you know what we get to do today? Yeah,

36:16

we get to make a movie. That

36:20

was great. I thought about that. By the way,

36:22

I thought I, because I'd forgotten it until

36:24

I read it in your book. Yeah. And

36:27

he does say that and I had, you know,

36:29

I'm shooting something right now and I'm, you know,

36:32

it's hour 12, whatever it is. And

36:35

I'm like, oh my God. And I thought, you know what I

36:37

get to do today? Yeah. I get to

36:39

make a fucking movie or TV show or

36:41

something. Yeah,

36:44

I was shooting West Wing when you

36:46

guys took the lot, Warner Brothers lot over and

36:49

made it 18th century, 17th

36:52

century Japan. I couldn't, it was one of

36:54

the great Hollywood, but I didn't realize you

36:56

use that stupid swamp on

36:59

the back lot. Gilligan's Island. Do

37:01

you use Gilligan's Island? Yes. Oh

37:04

my, that is unbelievable to

37:06

me. Yeah. You

37:09

know, they say a rock's a rock, a tree's a tree,

37:11

shoot it in Griffith Park. That's the famous

37:14

DW Griffith. There's

37:17

so much good stuff. Okay, I got to ask

37:19

you about Legends

37:22

of the Fall. There's another one

37:24

to ask you about. That

37:28

score. Oh

37:31

yeah. That's, you know, James Horner,

37:34

we did three movies or four movies

37:36

together, you know,

37:39

and in his studio, when

37:41

you went into a studio, it was

37:44

full of airplanes. They

37:46

were hanging down. He loved models and

37:48

he made models and he loved flying.

37:50

He loved airplanes. And the

37:52

day that I heard what happened, he

37:55

would do trick flying. I

37:57

tried to imagine that moment of him being

37:59

up. there and seeing that it had gone wrong

38:02

and thinking about just those

38:05

last seconds in his life because he

38:07

was this very, very

38:11

dear, very, um,

38:14

Pontilius, very, very, um,

38:16

precise, um,

38:18

you know, composer. And that

38:20

was part of it for him. And yet

38:23

he was capable of such depth.

38:26

And, and that's what flying

38:28

always seemed to me to be to him to

38:30

get out there into this ether.

38:34

And, and, and, um, yeah,

38:36

it's a score that, that, uh,

38:39

it kills me. Um, you know, I've, I've

38:41

been really lucky. I've worked with

38:44

Hans and with James Newton

38:46

Howard and with James Horner.

38:49

And there are people who are freaks for

38:51

what those guys do. But I

38:53

think actually too few people understand just

38:57

what that genius is. And he

38:59

was one of them. And it was a tragic

39:02

loss. We, we all, you also were

39:05

mentored by, is it, I

39:07

feel like he's, he was not underrated

39:09

in his lifetime, not in any

39:11

way, but I feel like right now, if

39:13

you were to go and ask a

39:16

25 year old actor or

39:18

an executive about Sidney

39:20

Pollock, I'm,

39:22

I, I would hope that they

39:24

would know who he was because

39:28

when I look at the filmography of that man,

39:30

he was, I mean, I, it just, it's just

39:32

bummer to me that I never really got

39:35

to know him or, or, or work with him because

39:38

his movies, bro, forget

39:40

it. And, and his

39:42

acting. Yeah. Oh, well, his acting.

39:44

Yeah. I mean, you know, he

39:46

began, he was at the studio

39:48

as an actor and he

39:50

and Mark Rydell and all the others, all

39:53

those other guys. But I guess

39:55

to me, having someone like

39:57

that in your life, and it was

39:59

a complicated, relationship. It wasn't like

40:01

Mr. Chips or anything, but he was

40:05

remarkable in so many regards. But

40:08

now it's also an

40:10

important lesson to understand the impermanence

40:13

and the ephemera of

40:16

anything that we do. Because his

40:18

work was gigantic

40:21

in the culture for a good period

40:23

of time and influential in a hundred

40:25

different ways about what movies are and

40:27

what acting should be and how

40:31

to cast movie stars as actors and

40:33

to have them give performances of complexity

40:36

and depth in

40:39

movies that were not simple in some

40:41

of their characterizations

40:44

or even plots.

40:48

And then to understand

40:50

that there's a generation now

40:53

who just don't

40:56

know and you can't blame them. There's a lot

40:58

of culture now that's competing for their attention, but

41:01

I can't help but feel that

41:04

my reverence for earlier movies, for the

41:06

movies of the 30s and 40s, even

41:08

50s that had preceded

41:10

me, or even the 70s that I was raised

41:13

with, right? I'm not

41:15

sure that some of that work by people

41:17

like him is revered and studied

41:19

to the same degree by some

41:23

contemporary filmmakers. And I'm not sure I know why that

41:25

is. It maybe

41:27

has to do with the availability

41:29

and the immediacy of culture in

41:31

front of you on your computer and on your

41:33

phone. We would

41:36

go to movies and that

41:38

was the only thing to do. And

41:41

there was no hope of seeing them ever

41:43

again. And you would see them once

41:46

and you would then stay up all night and

41:48

talk about them and you would hope that someday

41:50

you'd ever get to see them again. But somehow

41:53

it dug in and I'm

41:55

not sure that it has that same kind of

41:58

stickiness. anymore.

42:00

I think

42:02

about there's so many things I'd love to ask

42:04

him about. Do you

42:06

happen to remember the

42:08

moment where he's two weeks into Out

42:10

of Africa and Redford's doing an accent?

42:13

Oh, oh,

42:15

do you know the story? Well, go tell

42:17

it. It's great. It's a great story. Well,

42:20

so look, Redford is one

42:22

of my icons and

42:24

he's a fucking amazing

42:27

actor. Yes. And

42:30

I can give you chapter and verse in specific

42:32

moments. In the

42:34

natural, when he says, God, I love baseball. I can give

42:36

you line reads. I can tell you don't

42:39

sleep on Robert Redford, but he's also

42:41

the biggest movie star we've ever

42:43

had. Right. And, and, you

42:46

know, there's something about movie stars where

42:48

they are, I might

42:50

listen to, you know, all this stuff, but I'm setting the story

42:52

up. It's what

42:54

you invest in is, is them. It's not

42:57

the first thing you love about is something of their

42:59

essence, first and foremost, and

43:02

you cover that essence to your peril

43:04

when you're a movie star. Yeah.

43:08

And so the notion of Redford

43:11

doing a Danish Danish,

43:13

was he Danish? Yeah. Haddon

43:16

Finch. So Redford's

43:18

working with Meryl Streep, who

43:21

is the greatest actor. And by

43:23

the way, not a movie star, stars movies,

43:25

but the movies also does the best dialect

43:27

work of any actor. And, and does the

43:29

best dialogue work of anybody who ever lived.

43:31

Right. You know, and so Redford's like, well,

43:34

this guy was a real guy. He was

43:36

Danish. Meryl's doing South, is there a South

43:38

African thing? And he does an accent in

43:42

Out of Africa, by the way, one of my favorite

43:44

movies of all time. Obviously, if you've seen the movie,

43:46

you know, there's no accent in it. So

43:49

what happened? Well,

43:52

I'll tell you, the relationship between

43:54

Sydney and Redford is

43:56

so interesting. You know, here's

43:58

this. God, this

44:00

blonde Southern California

44:03

God, and this Jewish

44:05

guy from New York. And

44:08

yet they become a kind of alter ego

44:10

to each other. And they

44:13

would love each other

44:16

deeply and be utterly infuriated

44:18

with each other just as much

44:20

time. Because there's another story which

44:22

pertains to the same thing, which

44:24

is about Jeremiah Johnson. Yes.

44:27

At the end of Jeremiah Johnson, Redford

44:29

is supposedly 25 years older and he comes

44:32

up against

44:35

a brave who goes out to kill him, who

44:37

is his son. And

44:39

it's in the script, Bilius wrote it, they're

44:41

getting ready to do it. And Redford goes

44:44

into the makeup trailer and

44:46

they put on the age makeup and he looks at himself

44:48

and goes, no. I mean, they're in

44:51

they're in somewhere in Sundance,

44:53

Utah. They're in the snow

44:55

and whatever he goes, no.

45:00

And if you look at that movie, it's

45:02

a good movie, but it sort of just doesn't end.

45:04

It just sort of stops.

45:07

No, it ends and it

45:09

plays that stupid song. Jeremiah

45:11

Johnson went his way into

45:13

the mountain. You

45:16

never forget that song once you hear it

45:18

because it's so bad. It's really bad. But

45:21

maybe the reason you remember it is because the ending is

45:23

so bad. It's never occurred to me. Let me ask you

45:25

this though. In defense of Robert Redford, is

45:27

it possible? Is it possible

45:29

that he was right? He

45:32

didn't like the, no, that he didn't like

45:34

the makeup. I don't know. Listen,

45:36

I did something. I made a movie with Daniel Craig

45:39

and the movie was written to

45:41

have a bookend of

45:43

Daniel in his seventies. It's about a

45:45

man who became a hero and

45:47

then utterly

45:49

denied it and then went

45:52

to live anonymously in New York as a cab driver.

45:54

And we start the movie as he's in a cab

45:57

as this old man and this other person gets into

45:59

a cabin and you go back

46:01

and then you come back at the end and you look at

46:03

it and we shot

46:05

it and he looked good and

46:08

we looked at it we went no

46:13

not the story cut cut

46:15

and Redford is the filmmaker

46:17

too right I mean he

46:20

became a real filmmaker right and he maybe

46:22

also had an instinct to say

46:24

this is not who

46:27

the audience has fallen low with you this

46:29

is another person right and

46:31

that's not and what you said are just

46:34

so interesting about needing to

46:36

hold on to some of the self the

46:39

thing that is the thing that

46:41

has drawn us there and

46:43

yet find that slight adjustment

46:45

yes that that suspends

46:47

disbelief to be someone else but it's a

46:50

balance a very precarious balancing

46:52

act and the precarious balance clearly didn't work

46:55

the first two weeks of out of Africa

46:57

I can you imagine I just imagine

47:00

knock knock hey Bob you got a minute yes

47:03

so um during the like I

47:06

I want to write I'm

47:09

obsessed with writing like

47:11

parodies of amazing moments and

47:15

that's one that's

47:19

one the other one I want to

47:21

write this is so so dark but you remember me

47:23

I'm Rob Lowe I'm dark head um

47:25

is you remember when there was a diet

47:27

candy that everybody took called AIDS no

47:31

oh yeah very famous everybody took it

47:33

and I'm kind of obsessed with the

47:35

day where that somebody goes into the

47:37

CEO's offices um do

47:40

you read the paper today but

47:43

anyway I digress my

47:46

true fans of that appreciate that joke tell me

47:48

so what did Sydney say anything do you know

47:50

what how he how he said

47:52

hey Bob let's talk about the accent no

47:54

I actually I actually don't

47:56

um he was he

47:58

was discreet about about that,

48:00

but you could see there were

48:03

things that would happen. I mean, there are

48:05

wonderful stories about Redford

48:08

being late and Sydney

48:11

being early and then

48:13

not wanting to confront each other at

48:15

the start of every day because of

48:17

it, but it was somehow baked into

48:19

the relationship. So I don't know. Amazing.

48:22

Yeah. I'm

48:24

very punctual. I think you gotta,

48:27

everybody's on the clock. Tell

48:30

me what is next for you? What do you

48:32

got other than this new special Bolton thing, which

48:34

you're going to tell me about offline? Yeah. Well,

48:37

we're writing an adaptation of

48:40

a Stephen King book that came out last year, which we

48:42

had to stop because of the strike. Very

48:44

interesting book, a book called Billy Summers, which

48:47

is not, it's

48:50

Stephen King and the humanist tradition.

48:53

It's more in the world. It's

48:55

not horror. It's not fantasy. It's

48:58

about people. And that's

49:00

something that we're really enjoying. And

49:05

we've also written something on spec

49:08

because there was that time that we were

49:11

all just sitting around and I

49:14

don't do well with idleness. Me

49:17

neither. I only have one speed.

49:20

And so there is something we've written

49:22

and we're finishing, which I think is

49:24

something we're pretty excited

49:26

about. But, you know, it's funny

49:29

to do what we do. Every

49:32

time that I would make a movie, I

49:34

would come back into the world and see that the

49:36

entire movie business had changed. And

49:39

I think even now during

49:41

this period of COVID and then the strike,

49:43

I think it has changed again. Yes.

49:46

And we have to reorient

49:49

ourselves every time. And

49:51

so I feel that in some way I'm

49:53

still trying to then recover my sea legs.

49:57

And to know. what

50:00

it is, it's not just only

50:02

what I want to do, but how does what I want

50:04

to do fit into

50:06

this new culture? I

50:10

do know that I was really

50:12

privileged always to be

50:14

able to do big grown up adult

50:16

movies at scale. Scale

50:20

is a very important thing to a

50:22

director, right? Particularly certain

50:24

subjects. Scale gives you the

50:26

edifice on which you can put these performances,

50:28

but you have ideas. I

50:31

think of, I mean, I've made 15

50:33

movies, something like that, maybe more,

50:35

but I don't know that I could make 12 or

50:38

13 of them right now because

50:40

yes, you could go make Glory, but

50:43

it'll be eight guys in the woods

50:47

while something else is happening around them. You

50:49

wouldn't have the majesty or the

50:52

sense of verisimilitude because

50:55

that's not what studios people

50:57

are giving the big money to do. The

51:00

money, money for the actors, the

51:02

money for production is in

51:04

the Marvel universe and is in the

51:06

IP and these things that are different.

51:09

They're asking a different thing of

51:11

an audience. And there are

51:14

still very interesting movies to be made of

51:16

serious subjects and complex,

51:19

challenging dramas. Yes, of

51:22

course, but not at scale. And

51:25

it's not like I went after

51:28

scale for its own sake, but

51:31

it was such a luxury to create. They

51:35

talk now about, this whole thing

51:37

about pitches now is world

51:39

creation. Yes. And

51:41

what they really mean is fantasy world

51:43

creation because it's actually much

51:46

harder and more expensive at times to

51:48

do real world creation,

51:50

a real time, real scale. And

51:53

I was pleased with

51:56

Oppenheimer and with certain movies that are now

51:58

at least beginning to take all. of the

52:00

tools of CG and

52:03

use them not as a thing

52:05

that pulls you out of reality

52:07

and puts you into some fantasy, but to in fact

52:10

create certain reality

52:12

situations where maybe for

52:14

less money, you could do some of

52:17

the things that we were able to do. There

52:20

was no CG in Courage Under Fire.

52:22

Those were real tanks. There

52:24

was no CG when we shut down 40th

52:26

to 47th Street in The

52:28

Siege or

52:32

The Beach at Glory or Steven

52:34

Spielberg on the beachhead

52:36

at Omaha Beach. That's

52:39

the real question, I think, for those of us

52:42

who want to make movies

52:45

still for grownups, how to

52:47

do that? How to do that within

52:49

the financial models that they have for you? Can

52:53

you figure it out? Will you call me? Yeah, exactly.

52:56

Please. Your book is

52:58

great. Hits, flops, and other illusions. So

53:02

it's so good to see you. I

53:04

can't believe that it took this. You

53:08

have a very, very, very, very special

53:11

place in my heart and always will.

53:13

Please give Liberty a huge

53:15

hug. Oh my God, we didn't even

53:17

get a chance to talk about her. Ed

53:20

Zwick, people, has one of the most beautiful, lovely

53:24

wives. You

53:26

married well. Yeah, well, she's

53:29

managed to keep me

53:31

around this long. Yeah, exactly. That was

53:33

great. Love you, Ed. Told

53:42

you the man had a vocabulary. Super

53:45

inspiring. Super, super, super inspiring.

53:47

I hope you guys had fun. What

53:50

a great, thoughtful, amazing chat, as always

53:52

is whenever I get a chance

53:54

to reconnect with Ed. Go

53:58

watch one of the movies that we talked about. so many

54:00

different movies, but pick one, any one of them,

54:02

and go watch one tonight in

54:05

celebration. Thanks for listening. I will see you

54:07

next time on Literally. You've

54:12

been listening to Literally with Rob Lowe

54:14

produced by me, Nick Liao, with help

54:16

from associate producer Sarah Baguar, research

54:19

by Alyssa Graw, editing by Geron

54:21

Ferguson, engineering and mixing by

54:23

Rich Garcia. Our executive

54:25

producers are Rob Lowe for Lowe

54:27

Profile, Adam Sacks, Jeff

54:30

Ross, and myself for Team Coco, and

54:32

Colin Anderson for Stitcher. Booking

54:34

by Deirdre Dodd, music by Devin Bryant.

54:37

Special thanks to Hidden City Studios. Thanks

54:40

for listening. We'll see you next time on

54:42

Literally with Rob Lowe.