0:00

Hello everyone

0:02

. I'm Tom Denford, cofounder of ID Comms.

0:05

Welcome to episode 32 of #MediaSnack MEETS. Recorded

0:09

each week in New York, we get to meet the individuals

0:11

and organizations doing great work to

0:13

inspire success and drive change

0:15

within the global media and marketing industry.

0:18

In each episode, we find out what is behind that

0:20

success, what it takes to make change

0:22

in the industry, and what the rest of us can learn from

0:24

that experience. My

0:29

guest for this episode is Rob

0:31

Rakowitz , the global media director of Mars , one

0:33

of the world's largest advertisers, and

0:35

Rob is based here in New York. There

0:37

has been a lot of discussion over recent

0:40

years about transformation. Digital transformation,

0:43

media transformation...what does that actually

0:46

mean? Well, Rob is one person

0:48

with a very good answer to that, and at Mars he's

0:50

led a two year program to

0:52

completely change the way that Mars thinks

0:54

about media, shifting it wholly from

0:56

being seen as a cost to the business, and instead,

0:59

to be seen as an important investment in

1:01

the company's future growth. Now,

1:03

this is far harder than it sounds; needing

1:06

him to secure close alignment across

1:08

the business, as to the current media

1:10

operating model, and then being sure

1:12

that everyone agreed where they wanted to go.

1:15

And it also required a very clear mandate from Rob's

1:17

boss, the Global Chief Marketing Officer

1:19

of Mars, Andrew Clarke, to

1:21

be able to implement the changes that they needed.

1:25

Those of you that know Rob, know that he's a very

1:27

accomplished competitive cyclist,

1:29

representing team USA in international

1:31

competition, and he credits a lot of his professional

1:34

success to what he learned on the road as part

1:36

of a team which has to work seamlessly

1:38

together as one in order to win. Inspired

1:41

by the possibilities of effective teamwork, Rob is

1:43

also one of the most passionate advocates

1:45

for the industry to take more responsibility

1:48

for where advertising dollars flow,

1:50

and he's been working hard to bring together

1:52

his peers at other major advertisers

1:54

to form an alliance for responsible

1:57

media, to tackle what he calls our

1:59

industry's "ocean plastic." It's

2:01

an important message. In this episode

2:03

we cover a lot. We discuss Rob's

2:06

view of the role of a Global Media Director

2:08

and how he manages the priorities in

2:10

that role across a vast organization

2:12

like Mars. And he shares the scope of the

2:15

company's recent media transformation program

2:17

and the advantages of having a CMO supporting

2:19

the change. And we discussed the importance

2:21

of thinking about the longterm sustainability

2:25

of the global media industry. You

2:27

can check the full show notes for this episode, including

2:29

a transcript, at mediasnackpodcast.com. But without

2:33

further delay, please enjoy this fascinating and

2:35

highly insightful interview with the Global

2:37

Media Director of Mars,

2:39

Rob Rakowitz. Rob

2:43

, welcome to #MediaSnack MEETS.

2:44

Thank you for having me, Tom.

2:45

So, you are another Global Media

2:48

Director gracing the #MediaSnack MEETS

2:50

podcast studio. I really want to dig in again

2:52

to what it's like to be

2:54

a Global Media Director because--and we

2:56

have spoken to a number of people that

2:58

we know, you and I have mutual friends

3:01

in that similar kind of role--and I

3:03

think they're all different. Let's find out

3:05

what your experience has been for

3:08

the last four, five years as Global

3:10

Media Director of Mars. Before we get

3:12

there, I just wanted to reference the fact that you and

3:14

I did a panel, didn't we? Earlier

3:16

this year for the 4A's, which is the trade body representing

3:18

US agencies, and we

3:21

were talking there about the

3:23

role of a Global Media Director or Media

3:26

Director's role and how that's evolving

3:28

or has evolved, and how that now

3:30

is having an implication on how agencies

3:32

work and what work is being

3:34

brought in house and different changes of control.

3:37

So can we start there? Let's just talk about from

3:40

your experience of the last four years, what is

3:42

a Global Media Director; what's the job actually

3:45

involve?

3:45

Absolutely. So, why don't we start about

3:48

where it is today? It's

3:51

drastically different. There's definitely

3:54

a lot of, what I would say, is connecting

3:56

and building. You

3:58

basically start out connecting media

4:01

to different parts of the organization because at

4:03

first you're probably going to walk

4:05

into an organization and might see that media

4:07

is not as well connected over to creative. That to

4:09

me is almost like level one, right? Then,

4:12

what you're going to want to do, is make sure that it's better

4:14

connected to the rest of the marketing ecosystem.

4:16

Is it connected to the other things that

4:18

you're doing within communications--if you

4:20

will. Then, getting

4:23

into things like e-commerce, technology,

4:26

data, shopper marketing,

4:28

all of these different areas. This is primarily

4:30

what you're doing, because ultimately, at the

4:33

end of the day, the media element on it is

4:35

probably the tip of the spear in terms of

4:37

what consumers experience. It's

4:39

also probably where we invest the most money,

4:42

and it's probably the

4:45

sort of canary in the coal mine for

4:47

change. What you find that you're doing,

4:49

is you're doing a lot of internal connections to

4:52

different disciplines. At the same time,

4:55

you're actually doing a lot of connections of

4:57

your own organization into an agency

5:00

or an agency operating model, depending on

5:02

how far you actually push that, and then

5:04

also working with the select partners

5:06

that you have, whether it's a research partner,

5:09

whether it happens to be certain media publishers

5:11

as well, platforms, etc . So,

5:13

what you're doing, is you're almost going back

5:19

to the 1950's switchboard where an

5:22

operator is just pulling on different cords

5:26

and cables and plugging them in and

5:28

making the right sort of connections. And ultimately, that's what

5:31

the Media Director has sort of

5:34

evolved into is that; you're just

5:36

driving really good connections. At the same time, what

5:39

you're doing, is you're making some

5:41

calls , and you're doing

5:43

those calls either as

5:45

a sort of sole practitioner expert and

5:47

sort of saying, "Look," setting the vision

5:49

and being able to say, "This is the sense

5:52

that we need to take," setting a little

5:54

bit of policy. But at the same time, what you've got to do

5:56

is also marshal people around

5:58

that policy and that vision

6:00

, because otherwise you're going

6:03

to run out of steam very quickly. So,

6:06

what you're doing, is you're also setting vision,

6:08

but you're also creating ways for people

6:10

to engage with it. So, it's a

6:13

very, very different role, because what

6:15

that had been historically was,

6:18

I would say, a little bit slower

6:20

moving--a little bit more

6:22

staff oriented. I

6:24

think this becomes much more around

6:26

systems-oriented. And

6:28

I would say that would ultimately be the

6:30

from-to in terms of where I've seen

6:33

the role be historically, versus

6:36

where I think it is today. It

6:38

used to be very much about one size

6:41

fits all--kind of set

6:43

a direction. This one tends

6:45

to be much more--when you talk about systems--about

6:49

exploring different models and making sure that an organization

6:52

can actually scale to

6:54

it.

6:54

So, it's a big, big role,

6:57

is what we're saying, and it's spreads

6:59

you thin across lots of different

7:01

parts of the business, internally and externally.

7:04

I think at the 4A's, you said "the role of mushroom"--it's

7:08

expanded significantly. And other

7:10

guests have said similar things. Is that, particularly

7:13

that global role, because

7:15

you're seen as a go-to internally

7:17

to be the specialist in some

7:19

very deep areas--which I'm sure we'll

7:21

come on to discuss--yet from

7:25

the outside, for your external partners,

7:27

that's fragmented in

7:29

many places; that you have to work with lots

7:31

of different types of agencies now these days.

7:35

How on earth do you

7:38

figure out on a daily basis

7:40

what the priorities are

7:42

going to be in the short term and also longterm? What

7:45

should be the responsibilities of

7:47

that role? Because you cannot be the

7:50

expert on everything the

7:52

whole time.

7:53

And you can't be present everywhere the whole time.

7:55

So how do you make those decisions?

7:56

Yeah, so , I liken it

7:59

a lot to plate spinning. This

8:01

is actually something that one of our Global Brand

8:03

Directors once told me when I

8:06

asked, "Look, how are you successful

8:08

in your role?" And he shared

8:10

with me this analogy of plate spinning, because quite

8:12

honestly, it's sort of recognizing that

8:15

there are priorities and you've got

8:17

to keep certain things under certain momentum so they

8:20

don't come crashing down. And at the same time, what you've got

8:23

to do, is also embrace the fact that certain

8:25

plates are going to fall to the floor. So,

8:27

I definitely think that is the right analogy.

8:30

I think

8:33

I've been very fortunate about working

8:37

with folks who have been able to help

8:40

embrace a vision

8:44

and a sort of roadmap for change. What

8:46

that's allowed us to do is really set

8:48

what the priorities are and be able to say that less

8:50

is actually more, and making

8:53

sure that we're actually moving what we would call

8:55

internally, some "big rocks" around

8:57

media. So, it

8:59

allows us to sort of say, "Okay, priority

9:02

this year is going to be around talent,

9:04

training and structure." It's going

9:07

to be around making sure that we embed

9:09

data and analytics, for instance, and saying

9:13

that, "Okay, we are going to let go of certain

9:15

other things that we might have done the year prior; or

9:17

that we know are going to be the next

9:19

year after." I think the focusing

9:22

mechanism that you can have internally

9:24

with stakeholders, internally with

9:26

your own team , can help.

9:28

Look, I think that there's absolutely

9:31

whack-a-mole issues that we have

9:33

as it relates to brand safety. For

9:35

some reason, they always manage to happen

9:37

Friday, end of day, UK, which always

9:41

has a sort of knock-on effect in terms

9:43

of the US; but what

9:45

you also have to do, is allow yourself

9:48

a little bit of slack to deal

9:51

with what would be

9:54

a little bit of an urgent

9:56

issue, not necessarily a crisis that

9:58

you have to pay attention to.

10:00

And you can sometimes calm

10:02

some of those excited

10:05

responses. When Youtube is

10:07

on the front page of the newspapers, this

10:09

isn't a trade press issue or a small little

10:11

industry bubble issue; as soon as it becomes

10:13

a national news story, then

10:17

you have very senior people within your organization

10:19

start to ask questions--shareholders or other

10:22

external influential people--and people

10:26

start knocking on your door. You have to have a point

10:28

of view. Lots of people have been

10:30

talking about transformation and media

10:33

and changing the way large

10:35

companies think about media, but

10:37

you've been actually doing it for the last two or three

10:39

years. What has change meant in your organization

10:42

and what's the kind of journey that you've been on? Because you've

10:45

led Mars into some really interesting

10:47

work and media now.

10:49

Yep, so that's a wonderful question.

10:51

The scope of change within

10:54

media, or the transformation if

10:56

you will, is sort of broadened

10:58

and it's deepened in the sense that

11:00

now, it's starting to look at what

11:02

I would say is three different areas, or three different

11:04

levels of change. First one, is

11:07

organization and where does

11:09

media actually plug in ? So, we talked

11:11

earlier about the connections. The second

11:13

area, or the second level of

11:16

change, is really this idea of

11:18

people and capabilities. So,

11:20

do you have the right people on the bus? Are there

11:24

skills or training that you can actually do to actually

11:27

make sure that they can scale to the future of

11:29

media? And then I would say the third area

11:31

of change is ultimately in the way that

11:33

campaigns are built, connected and deployed

11:35

and measured. So, I think

11:37

that, ultimately, we've been dealing

11:40

with change at those three

11:41

levels for the last

11:44

five-plus years in Mars. I've been

11:46

on board nearly five years. I

11:48

would say that the amplification

11:51

of the change at those three levels has modulated

11:54

or been more accentuated differently in few

11:58

phases of change that we've had. The

12:01

first phase that we had, quite literally,

12:03

was going from this idea

12:05

of all media reach being equal,

12:07

to actually becoming more selective

12:10

around media and actually scaling up

12:12

and behaving like a global organization.

12:14

That was the first phase. And

12:16

I would say that that probably dealt

12:18

more with thinking and operating,

12:21

less around campaign,

12:24

but not really around the organizational

12:27

connection. Our next phase started

12:29

to deal with that a bit more, which is where

12:31

we are currently. And it's

12:33

now saying media is

12:36

not just a way of getting advertising

12:38

out the door. It's not a cost.

12:41

It's actually an investment in growth. It's connected

12:43

to these different areas of the business. It's

12:46

probably first and fastest in terms

12:47

of using consumer

12:49

data or behavioral data at

12:52

scale to think about the way that we invest

12:54

in media, the way that we optimize a campaign

12:56

and the way that we actually measure one. It's absolutely

12:58

fascinating, because what you do, is you actually

13:01

see the changes in the marketplace

13:03

, changes in the industry, changes in sort

13:05

of the organization . Me, as

13:07

Global Media Director, I am basically

13:09

a defender of

13:12

the craft internally and an ambassador

13:15

for the industry, because I think it's very,

13:17

very easy for us, as Global Media

13:19

Directors, to focus in on what is

13:21

it that the organization actually needs versus

13:24

actually being able to step back and say, look, what

13:26

is the big picture here? What

13:28

is the meta trend that we're actually facing

13:31

into? And that to me is absolutely fascinating

13:34

and that, I think, has been a different

13:36

level of consciousness that I've

13:38

been able to grow. And I think

13:40

it's been able to add some value, I'd like to think,

13:43

in terms of the way that we look at it and

13:45

also the way that we've been talking to

13:48

the industry; the way that we've been partnering

13:50

MediaCom with some

13:52

of our research partners--with you

13:55

guys--as external consultants

13:57

in terms of helping us from a benchmarking perspective.

13:59

So, I absolutely think that that level

14:01

of consciousness has been absolutely

14:04

transformational for me.

14:06

I think it's an advantage, but you're going to tell me

14:09

the advantage of having a CMO who

14:11

was very interested and

14:13

then very supportive in this

14:15

role. I'm going to assume the

14:18

answer here, but how important is that, to have

14:20

a CMO interested in media?

14:22

Yeah, I think that sponsorship absolutely

14:25

is a key ingredient

14:28

for success in media and

14:31

then also, in a Global Media Director's

14:33

role. I think that if you don't have the sponsorship,

14:36

then they can very easily just become

14:38

a talking head and a puppet. That's

14:40

not what you want. You want an

14:42

executive sponsor who is going

14:44

to be able to say, "Look, there's a

14:46

need to change here," and is actually

14:49

going to sign on the

14:51

dotted line and say, "I believe in this case for

14:53

change. I believe in this vision and we

14:55

are going to do something about it." What's more to

14:57

that, is you want to make sure that that Declaration

15:00

of Independence or the Constitution on

15:02

media if you will , has other

15:05

signatories to it--the other key partners

15:08

that you're going to have in the business. In making

15:11

sure that sponsorship goes beyond just

15:13

one person and becomes a

15:15

sort of leadership team buy in and

15:17

people actually endorse it and

15:20

want to embrace it. And that's ultimately

15:22

where you're going to see better

15:24

results. What you don't want to do, is actually

15:26

do something in private and have

15:28

it be a surprise on people.

15:31

And we actually have seen that ourselves,

15:34

historically, and we learned

15:36

from those lessons and we said, "If we

15:39

want to go fast, if we want to go far,

15:41

the best thing that we can do is share

15:43

the vision, enroll people--almost like

15:46

these concentric circles out--to make

15:48

sure that you actually scale the effect

15:51

of change.

15:51

To be honest, as an observer

15:55

of that process that you've gone through--because

15:57

we've been privileged to work with you through some of this--observing

16:02

your ability to bring the organization

16:05

with you...having a

16:07

CMO sponsor is great, but that

16:09

doesn't then give you the right to take a vast global

16:11

organization with you. You then still

16:13

have to build all of those relationships.

16:16

And I think sometimes that's has been

16:19

the largest barrier to change in big, conglomerate or

16:23

multinational/multi-divisional businesses,

16:27

is that you're not dealing with people

16:29

that you have necessarily any kind of leverage

16:31

or influence over naturally. Even

16:34

with the CMO's sponsorship

16:36

and mandate, you still

16:40

have to build support through

16:42

a network of lots of different businesses, spread across

16:44

many different geographies, time zones, languages, different media

16:48

markets and different principles. That's

16:52

a huge commitment; the will to go

16:54

do that. But what's your

16:57

learning been? Because I've observed some

16:59

of it and it's been really impressive the way that the organization

17:01

came together, but I think that's one of

17:03

the biggest barriers for other companies to succeed.

17:05

How did Mars make that

17:08

happen?

17:08

I took personal inspiration from

17:10

my life outside of work. I

17:13

am a competitive cyclist. I've

17:16

been very fortunate that it's been a natural

17:18

ability that I sort of discovered a

17:21

number of years ago. In that, I also discovered

17:24

true leadership and what that actually means and

17:26

what it means to be part of a team. And I'm sort

17:28

of very intentional about the words

17:31

"being part of a team." And this is actually something

17:32

that our team

17:34

founder, our 'Directeur Sportif', on

17:37

the cycling team is very intentional

17:39

about; that there's a big difference

17:41

in terms of being in a group

17:44

and then being part of a team.

17:46

Just to be clear on that--you've been really modest here--but you compete

17:49

at not just national, but international

17:50

level; you represent the country

17:54

in cycling. So, you travel around the world.

17:57

This is not like a weekend hobby.

17:59

You do know what you're talking about.

18:01

Ultimately, that idea of

18:03

being part of a team really

18:06

has a good deal of responsibility

18:09

to each other; that you are

18:11

not always going to be the

18:13

person who is going to win; sometimes you

18:15

might actually be playing a support role. And it's

18:18

something that I started to get on to when I was over

18:20

on the agency side when I was leading

18:22

teams. Ultimately team

18:24

leadership comes down to three things: it's ABC. Accountability: are

18:31

you actually doing your job? Are you supporting the mission? Belonging: are

18:35

we creating a comfortable

18:37

place where people can actually be themselves

18:39

and contribute and contribute honestly?

18:42

And then Communication: when stuff

18:44

is changing around you and things are moving really quickly,

18:47

do you have the ability to communicate

18:50

seamlessly to share the same ethos?

18:52

Are you sending the same message

18:54

to other people that are out there? Personally, outside

18:58

of work, I've seen this play out in a

19:00

road race and it's been absolutely

19:03

inspiring to actually see a

19:06

team be fluid and actually work

19:09

together. I've seen it all. I've been able

19:11

to bring it into work and have seen some

19:13

pretty dicey situations come

19:15

up in some major decisions,

19:17

whether it happens to be around selecting an

19:21

agency partner, structuring something

19:23

in terms of a technology

19:25

provider, data--whatever it

19:28

happens to be--and people actually

19:30

being able to embrace that.

19:33

They're going to be people who are going to be ambassadors for change.

19:36

There are people who are going to be catalysts for

19:38

change and be able to be clear

19:41

about who is going to play what role

19:44

and what is the Dream Team that I

19:46

need to enlist around me that's going

19:48

to help me 1) be better,

19:51

but 2) actually reach this

19:53

goal. And it was really good because when

19:55

we did, when we were saying

19:58

,"We are going to do this transformation

20:00

agenda," we did sit down and

20:02

we did say, "Who's the

20:04

Dream Team?" Who can actually say, "I'm not going

20:06

to be part of a group, but I'm going

20:09

to be part of a team." And

20:11

it was very clear and we've heard some

20:13

very frank conversations

20:16

as we were going through things where it's like,

20:18

okay guys, let's pare back here; let's gauge

20:21

where we are; let's talk about these tensions honestly.

20:24

And you're able to go a lot deeper,

20:26

a lot more intimate, much

20:29

like the way that you would be if you're hanging on

20:31

somebody's wheel in a

20:33

draft on a bike at 35

20:35

miles an hour, you're able to know

20:38

exactly what's going to happen if

20:40

you're in a meeting with a bunch of different stakeholders, either

20:42

internally or externally, you want

20:44

to be able to know what direction that person's going to

20:46

take when they're actually fielding the question.

20:49

So, it's that same level

20:51

of intimacy except it's just different context

20:54

.

20:55

So, I know it's taken a lot to bring

20:58

the organization together that; it's taken

21:01

a huge amount of work for you to

21:03

build those relationships and

21:05

that's hard work. And so, for

21:08

other marketers that might be listening to this,

21:10

that are at the bottom of that

21:12

mountain, over there at the base camp looking

21:14

up and thinking, "We're learning from

21:17

other businesses, and we know

21:19

we have to influence this kind of change,"

21:22

but it's an overwhelming task across

21:24

a very large organization. And I

21:26

hear from many other Global Media

21:28

Directors who had similar roles to you, but

21:31

now they are saying, "I

21:33

don't know even know where to really start,"--trying to

21:35

tease out interest in the organization,

21:38

but they know they have to do something. You've been

21:40

through that, now.

21:41

I've had people come up to being like, "Oh

21:44

wow, the relationship and the collaboration

21:46

that you have with X or

21:48

with Y within your organization

21:51

is unbelievable. I've never seen it before. It's totally

21:53

inspirational." That to me is almost like

21:55

an amazing legacy to have. It's being

21:58

clear about who you're going to partner up with

22:00

and who you're going to ally with. And

22:03

look, you cannot ally with everybody. You

22:05

cannot partner with everybody. You've got

22:07

to realize this is about concentric

22:10

circles. Who are my critical

22:12

contacts and relationships? Who are

22:14

those people's critical contacts

22:16

and relationships? And then, just making sure that

22:18

you have a clear way of connecting

22:22

and influencing and inspiring people

22:24

to do things differently in media. I would

22:26

say competitive advantage areas

22:29

are not about cracking an idea. It's

22:32

about people. It's about technology,

22:35

it's about tools. It's about

22:37

learning. If you're

22:39

not actually bringing

22:42

together people in a community, if you're

22:44

not driving intentional scaled

22:46

decisions, then you're

22:48

not going to reach your full potential. So,

22:51

I'd say that if you don't do certain

22:53

things, then you will probably

22:55

not realize the full potential of media.

22:58

It will probably continue to be looked at as

23:00

a cost within your organization, not

23:03

as a lever for growth.

23:05

So, I think now there are many that are toying with the idea

23:07

but do not quite know where to start.

23:09

But, our advice is always start internally

23:11

with the organization to identify

23:14

the team. We talk about

23:16

being more of an engineer because

23:18

you have to build the system,

23:20

right? You have more than just being an evangelist. You can't just be

23:22

the smartest media person in the organization

23:24

and that's enough. You've got to bring

23:27

them with you.

23:28

Yeah. And you don't want to be the smartest

23:30

person in the room all the time or

23:33

forever. I think that

23:35

what you almost have to do, is imagine your own

23:37

obsolescence or a great

23:41

transfer. And I think that great transfer is

23:43

in this idea of ownership. I think

23:45

a lot of people talk nowadays about control

23:48

and I just think it's a very defensive word.

23:51

The more emboldened , powerful, hopeful word

23:53

is ownership or leadership,

23:57

right? Because at the end of the day, you are putting a

23:59

lot of money out there into

24:02

the marketplace. You are doing a

24:04

lot of things in terms of data and technology.

24:07

If you do not have a sense

24:11

of, "What is

24:13

my strategy, why am

24:15

I doing it and how?" then you

24:17

don't have ownership. I think that

24:19

a lot of this debate over in-housing

24:22

and a lot of these finger-pointings of

24:26

agencies to clients back

24:29

and forth, I think it's a signal

24:30

of people who are

24:33

grasping for ownership and

24:35

ultimately, that's the root cause. If you

24:37

address it, then a lot of these tensions

24:39

tend to dissipate.

24:41

And could ownership be shared

24:43

across those two parties? Or are we saying

24:45

that there's a responsibility

24:47

for the advertiser to take more ownership?

24:49

I think that the advertiser

24:53

definitely needs to be the first one to make

24:55

the move

24:58

or the step--I'm a horrible dancer,

25:00

so this analogy is never going to work--but the advertiser's

25:06

role is to set the tone. But ultimately,

25:09

ownership, can

25:11

scale over two parties

25:14

and it can be an agency, it can

25:17

be a consultancy if the terms

25:19

are absolutely correct and the team actually

25:21

operates across the

25:23

organization, in a way where

25:25

the differences in email addresses

25:27

become a non-issue. Then

25:31

you've got a really magical thing. And I've

25:33

been in those situations when I've been on

25:35

the client side, I've been in the situations when

25:38

I've been on the agency side as well.

25:40

And the role of a Global

25:42

Media Director is making sure that that can actually happen.

25:45

That's very good. So,

25:47

let's talk about what you've been calling

25:49

"media sustainability," which I love

25:51

the idea of and I think is something which

25:53

you've been championing for a

25:57

little while now and trying

25:59

to encourage the industry to just take a little bit

26:01

more responsibility about

26:04

where media dollars go. And

26:08

it's something that you've been speaking about on conference stages

26:10

and it's a really good message. And I know you're gently

26:14

lobbying your peers, your other

26:16

global media leaders in other organizations,

26:20

to share that . So, explain to us what

26:22

you mean by media sustainability and

26:24

what we should be doing about it.

26:27

Media is, in essence, an ecosystem.

26:29

You've got the advertiser/marketer, you've

26:32

got an agency, you've got publishers,

26:34

you've got consumers, you've got regulatory

26:36

bodies, technology, data firms,

26:39

etc . Right now, when you actually

26:41

look at it, there are lot

26:43

of boogeymen out

26:45

there in the sense that

26:47

there's a dark side to

26:49

the industry. We've got

26:52

ad fraud, we've got unfair payment

26:54

terms, we've got brand safety issues,

26:56

we've got consumer data

26:59

privacy issues, we've got

27:02

lack of regulation, uneven regulation.

27:04

It makes for

27:06

a healthy, thriving media

27:08

industry, difficult. You

27:11

could actually argue that ad

27:14

blocking is symptomatic

27:16

of this ecosystem that

27:20

is out of whack. If you

27:22

have to then say, "Okay, well

27:25

if we have to accept that this is all a web

27:27

and it's an ecosystem, then

27:29

where did these tensions actually start?"

27:32

I think first and foremost

27:34

what we've got to accept is that we, as

27:37

clients, are not

27:39

asking for media

27:41

costs that are unsustainable. We are not

27:43

asking for payment terms

27:45

that are equivalent of using your

27:48

agency as a bank. If you're saying,

27:50

"Look, agency, I expect you to take

27:52

a loss and a double loss--meaning

27:54

a loss on payment terms and a loss on inventory costs and

27:59

dipping into your value pot"--that's where

28:02

non-transparent business practices happen.

28:04

That's where ad fraud becomes a, "I'm

28:07

not going to see it, because at the

28:09

end of the day my client needs to see traffic at a certain

28:12

CPM level." We've got to

28:14

actually recognize that there

28:16

are some dominoes that

28:19

were dropped first and the people who dropped those

28:21

first dominoes need to actually acknowledge

28:23

it. So, what we've been pushing

28:25

for is this idea of

28:27

more mutuality, and this is actually

28:29

absolutely one of our five principles at Mars: making

28:33

sure that we have mutual operating

28:35

terms with our agency--with

28:38

the other partners that we work with in media. Because

28:40

quite honestly, few go

28:43

to that place. Then, guess

28:45

what, the rest of the system is going to be infected.

28:48

Now, this is also going to take some, not only bravery

28:50

from the client side as

28:52

an individual, but collective bravery.

28:56

The agencies are also going to need to be brave

28:58

too . Because guess what? If

29:00

I'm mutual and the other clients

29:03

not mutual, that also creates

29:05

tension within the agency holding company, which

29:07

is going to then have other knock on effects on

29:10

to the agency's book of business or their portfolio.

29:12

So, you've got

29:15

to start saying, "collective better

29:17

behaviors, where we're not trying to

29:19

get competitive advantage the wrong

29:21

way." Competitive advantage

29:23

can't be costed out. Competitive

29:26

advantage needs to come from brain, not just brawn.

29:28

I think that's ultimately where we need

29:30

to move people over to. We've

29:32

got to absolutely push for the right

29:35

things. I think when you look

29:37

at all of the things around consumer data

29:39

privacy, when you look at all of the things around

29:41

brand safety, they have cost

29:44

advertisers and their agencies probably

29:47

millions, if not billions of dollars, in

29:49

terms of time lost. Advertisers

29:52

and agencies, we cannot be the only people

29:54

holding this mallet in the game

29:56

of whack-a-mole. And what we need

29:58

to do, is make sure that industry bodies

30:02

actually start to recognize

30:04

that they need to come together

30:07

and create conditions for better

30:09

partnership. Because if

30:11

we don't, then there's plenty

30:14

of bad actors out there, whether they're foreign

30:16

governments, abhorrent behaviors , regulators

30:19

will step in, consumers will block

30:21

things out...there's enough

30:23

drift away from advertising with

30:26

the likes of ad blocking and OTT,

30:28

On Demand services. We

30:30

are only going to accelerate it if

30:32

we continue to embrace these bad behaviors and also if

30:36

we don't come together. And I think ultimately

30:38

that's where we need to shine

30:41

a light as a community of global media

30:43

directors to say that there's a better

30:45

way of doing business. And if we

30:47

don't come together,

30:50

then quite honestly these opportunities, they're going to completely

30:53

evaporate .

30:54

And I think there's a very good reason

30:57

to try and recruit support from

30:59

the wider industry, from your agencies and

31:01

from vendors, but is it not all a symptom

31:05

of the race to the bottom

31:07

on cost?

31:08

As a company that deals with food, I think

31:10

the perfect analogy

31:13

here is: I can get

31:15

my cocoa , I can get my sugar,

31:17

I can get my peanuts,

31:19

all my raw ingredients

31:22

for a Snickers at a really low price.

31:24

But ultimately, at the end of the day, the quality

31:26

of the product that I deliver is

31:28

in the "how". So, what

31:31

we've gotta do is focus the same

31:33

sort of sensibility towards media,

31:35

which is: lowest cost and

31:38

tonnage is not the

31:40

answer. It's the combination of

31:42

things.

31:43

So you've got a huge energy for this, right ? A huge

31:45

passion for this. Where does that come from? Where

31:47

do you get your motivation and inspiration from?

31:50

You mentioned the cycling, which

31:53

I know is a really important reference point

31:55

and that's a passion area--but in the

31:57

industry, where do you get your information?

31:59

Who Inspires you? What can other

32:02

listeners and other marketers, your

32:04

peer network, what should they be

32:07

consuming, seeking out?

32:08

I would say that [the book] 'Truth, Lies & Advertising'

32:11

around account planning. I would say

32:13

[the book] 'Space Race' around comms planning, role

32:15

of data. I would say [the speech by David Verklin] 'Crackle of Change'

32:17

around this very crystal

32:20

ball way of looking at

32:22

buying media inventory on a

32:24

bidding table, which was actually, I think

32:26

when David wrote this, I was still at Carat,

32:30

and this must've been back in 2006

32:33

right? We're in 2019--

32:35

That must've

32:38

been at the 4A's conference

32:40

in 2006. Wow. Okay.

32:42

So, this is like long

32:45

term predictions in terms of advertisers

32:49

and the way that industries are shaped. And I'd

32:51

say that those are like absolutely

32:53

things that are still in my dining room

32:58

bookcase. And I

33:00

think actually the three of those books

33:02

are actually seated right next to each other. I

33:05

really enjoy reading Bob

33:10

Hoffman to keep us honest

33:13

about the industry. I think he has

33:15

a very good,

33:17

sarcastic, New

33:19

York take on Madison

33:22

Avenue and can actually call out B.S.

33:24

for being B.S. I

33:27

absolutely love Scott Galloway,

33:30

in terms of the way that he provokes

33:32

people to think about ecosystems

33:35

and connected business models

33:37

and how the Big Four have sort

33:40

of evolved. I think that it is

33:42

industry consciousness that everybody

33:44

should sort of recognize and say, "What is

33:49

Facebook as an entity?" What is

33:51

Alphabet as an entity? Amazon, etc.

33:54

I think that the more that we look at these

33:57

things, and I would actually encourage him if he's

33:59

listening to this, to look to China

34:01

because that's even more interesting in

34:03

terms of the conglomerates that are growing there.

34:06

And there are also some very interesting things that are

34:08

happening in Europe as

34:10

well, in terms of these media conglomerates.

34:12

And I think that there's really

34:14

been some very interesting stuff there. I love

34:19

Nir Eyal in

34:22

terms of really getting into some consumer

34:24

psychology as well, how it

34:26

relates to marketing, whether it's advertising

34:29

or products. I think this idea of behavioral economics

34:32

or anything that you can read in that space as it relates

34:34

to marketing or consumer

34:36

products is wonderful. And then

34:38

just in terms of staying up to speed

34:40

on all things digital and

34:43

the shifting landscape, or

34:46

as everything digitizes, Rob Norman

34:48

is somebody else that I avidly

34:50

follow and has been

34:53

somebody that is always a phone

34:55

call away, which is awesome.

34:57

That's great, Rob. So, we will link all

34:59

of those resources that you just mentioned. Probably

35:02

their books but also their Twitter and

35:04

their feeds. Because I love the idea that

35:07

everything quickly could become out of date, right? You just

35:09

need to kind of pick up on the noise, and these are some really

35:11

good signals perhaps to pay attention to.

35:14

Just go to mediasnackpodcast.com and you'll

35:16

see that we'll link those in the show

35:18

notes. So

35:20

looking ahead, you've got quite

35:22

an optimistic view of the industry,

35:25

which I really enjoy. There's

35:27

lots of people talking negatively about the industry, but

35:29

you've always got hope. So I don't need

35:32

to drag you out of the darkness and ask you to give us hope

35:34

because you have given us hope and your focus

35:36

is in really good, positive

35:38

areas, right? Building relationships across the

35:41

supply chain with great partners, driving

35:44

for more sustainability. I think

35:46

you're encouraging us all to be better in

35:48

the business and we owe you a

35:50

thank you for that. Looking

35:52

ahead, there's still work to be done,

35:55

right? So when we sit here in a

35:57

year's time , what would you like to have seen others change

36:00

in the industry? What would be a good step

36:02

forward?

36:03

I would love to see the

36:06

industry bodies start to

36:08

come together and talk about sustainability

36:10

and talk about fairness. That

36:13

would be my first hope, that we would

36:15

do that. And I think that we're starting to see

36:17

that having sat in both the ANA and

36:19

also the 4A's, I think that the kindling is

36:21

there. And I think that the right healthy

36:23

conversations are starting to happen. So,

36:26

I'm absolutely confident that we'll get there

36:28

with the industry groups. The other

36:31

thing that I'd really like to see is

36:33

the challenges to a

36:35

thriving civil society be

36:38

tackled. So brand safety, ad

36:41

fraud, consumer data privacy...I'd really

36:43

like to see the industry bodies come

36:46

together and start working

36:48

in a common direction. So

36:51

that would mean that the idea

36:52

that, "Oh, we are only representing

36:55

the interests of x."

36:57

So, IAB only representing the interests

36:59

of the platforms or the publishers, the

37:03

ANA and the WFA only

37:08

representing the interest of the advertisers and

37:11

the agency associations only

37:13

representing the idea of the agencies.

37:15

And we're just going to issue

37:17

papers as a sort

37:19

of echo chamber and

37:21

starting to say, "Hey guys, we've got to actually come

37:24

together and create a common platform." That

37:26

to me is really a

37:31

very easy fix and

37:33

that's about creating the forums that

37:35

are going to make

37:37

the collective will conscientious

37:40

and actually activate on it. I think

37:42

that's the beautiful thing.

37:43

Rob Rakowitz: Global Head of Media

37:45

at Mars. Thank you.

37:47

Thank you. Tom.

37:50

Who would you like to meet on future episodes?

37:52

Please let us know at mediasnackpodcast.com, where

37:56

you will also find previous guests, including

37:58

leading media executives from companies

38:00

like P&G, L'Oreal and Mars

38:02

and many more, plus some of the industry's

38:04

most provocative thought leaders, people like

38:07

Professor Mark Ritson and Gary

38:09

Vaynerchuk. You can subscribe to get new episodes each

38:11

week, and if you liked this episode and you think somebody

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else would, then please do

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share it. Thank you so much

38:17

for listening.