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0:49

We're born

0:51

with these unconscious habits, right, to protect ourselves.

0:54

So for example, there is this instinctual

0:57

survival brain that we have that can differentiate between,

1:00

let's say, a wild animal and a cute little puppy,

1:02

right, that

1:05

can differentiate between that. So we're

1:07

really kind of wired for that. However,

1:09

we are not wired to think that, you know, somehow, we're

1:13

going to be able to protect ourselves.

1:16

We're not wired to think that, you know,

1:18

somehow, you know, rich people are more

1:20

worthy and, you know, poor people are lazy

1:22

or, you know, somehow men are better than women

1:24

or dark skinned people are, you know,

1:27

less beautiful than, you know, light skinned

1:29

people. Those habits towards

1:31

different types of human beings, those are

1:33

learned.

1:49

Hello, hello,

1:50

and welcome to the Metta Hour

1:52

podcast with Sharon

1:54

Salzberg.

1:56

I'm Lily Cushman and I produce

1:58

the Metta Hour. And we're continuing

2:01

today with another episode

2:04

of the Real Life series.

2:08

Today, Sharon is in conversation

2:10

with Anu Gupta. And

2:13

this recording is part of

2:15

the Living an Authentic Life

2:17

Summit that took place a few

2:20

months ago, all of which was

2:22

centered around the themes

2:24

from Sharon's new book, Real Life.

2:28

This particular episode was

2:30

exploring

2:30

the times in life

2:33

that we become contracted.

2:36

And not just contracted for

2:38

a short time, but more chronically

2:41

contracted.

2:43

And what

2:44

is lost from our lives when

2:46

we're in that kind of a state

2:48

for a longer period of time.

2:51

And also how we find

2:54

our way back to a more

2:56

connected and open way of

2:58

being. So this is

3:01

the second time we've had Anu

3:03

on the podcast. And

3:05

I'll tell you a little

3:06

more about him. He's a human

3:09

rights lawyer, a social scientist,

3:11

an educator. He is

3:14

the founder of

3:15

Be More with Anu. He

3:18

is a queer immigrant man

3:20

of color who has lived

3:23

through a lot of experiences of bias

3:26

and bullying. He's

3:28

someone who's really dedicated

3:31

to finding solutions

3:33

to bias. He spent two

3:36

decades doing research, fieldwork,

3:39

in a lot of diverse communities globally.

3:42

And he's also a deep

3:43

meditation practitioner. And

3:47

as these conversations often are,

3:49

this is quite a

3:52

personal one, a tender one.

3:53

And in the

3:55

exploration of contraction, Anu

3:58

and Sharon speak a lot of things. about unconscious

4:01

bias, shame, and

4:04

some of the ways that we stay

4:06

trapped in our

4:08

trauma, and also the

4:10

ways that meditation and

4:13

mindfulness can

4:14

help us to navigate these

4:16

waters, how we can unwind

4:19

from the pain of racial

4:21

trauma and moving

4:23

towards the advancement of

4:26

racial equity.

4:28

So

4:29

before we dive into the episode,

4:31

a quick announcement. If

4:34

you would like to get yourself a copy

4:36

of Sharon's new book, Real Life,

4:39

it's now available in all the places.

4:42

And if you're someone who's

4:44

a fan of audio,

4:46

as a fan of this podcast, you

4:49

might appreciate listening to the

4:51

audio book of Real Life,

4:54

which is

4:54

read by Sharon herself. And

4:57

there's something more of a transmission,

5:01

I feel, when you get to hear the author's

5:03

words in the author's voice.

5:06

So without further ado, let's

5:09

get to today's episode. Anu

5:12

Gupta and Sharon Salzberg. So

5:23

welcome back to the summit. I'm Sharon Salzberg.

5:25

And I'm so happy to be welcoming

5:28

my friend Anu Gupta for a conversation

5:31

about what contracts us, what

5:33

holds

5:33

us back, what limits us, and how

5:35

we can get beyond that.

5:37

To begin with, though, Anu is a

5:39

human rights lawyer. He's a social scientist

5:42

and educator and a founder of Be

5:44

More with Anu. He's actually my go

5:47

to person when I'm writing a book because when

5:49

I want a quotation or just inspiration

5:53

about a world where people care about one

5:56

another and it's beautifully expressed and we

5:58

struggle. but we work

6:01

through it and I go

6:03

to Anu and get a beautiful

6:05

story of some kind or another. He

6:08

is also a gay immigrant man of color

6:11

with lived experiences of bias and bullying

6:14

that almost led him to take his life, but he didn't.

6:17

Instead, he dedicated himself

6:19

to find solutions to bias through

6:21

two decades of original research, field

6:23

work with diverse communities globally,

6:26

and 10,000 hours of meditation practice,

6:28

that's the magic number. He

6:30

reviewed author and the principal investigator

6:33

behind B. Moore's research.

6:35

He secured highly competitive grants from institutions

6:38

like the National Science Foundation, New

6:40

York State Health Foundation, American

6:42

Heart Association, among others,

6:45

to validate B. Moore's science-backed

6:47

method. He's written and spoken

6:49

extensively, including on the TED stage, the

6:51

Oprah conversation, which

6:54

I watched was fantastic, Fast Company,

6:56

and Newsweek.

6:58

So welcome, thank you so much for

7:00

appearing here. Thank you so

7:02

much, Sharon. It's such an honor to be here and

7:04

thank you for those kind words. You're such a big

7:06

part of my journey, so it's always such

7:09

a joy to be a

7:10

part of programs that you host.

7:13

Thank you. So you are an interesting

7:15

combination of vocations

7:18

and other things. We say you're an attorney,

7:21

a research scientist, a teacher, a mindfulness

7:23

and yoga teacher. So what led

7:25

you to the work you've been called to do?

7:28

Yeah, I feel like it's such a, sometimes

7:30

I step back and look at my life

7:32

and I am also very

7:35

surprised by the path that I've

7:37

taken because it's incredibly

7:39

circuitous and not at all planned.

7:41

And to

7:42

answer your question on

7:44

how I came to be doing what

7:46

I'm doing, I would just say a lot

7:49

of suffering, as

7:51

is the cause for a lot of people,

7:53

lots of suffering that was

7:56

in the form of inner suffering, vicarious

7:59

suffering, inner suffering. generational suffering,

8:02

possibly ancestral suffering, you

8:04

name it, right? So I think

8:06

for me, suffering is really what

8:08

brought me to the path. You know, ever since

8:10

I was young, you know, I just loved

8:13

this idea of fairness and equity. And

8:15

I grew up in India for the first 10 years of

8:17

my life. And

8:19

it's a

8:20

very patriarchal culture. I mean, things

8:22

are changing, of course, and have changed

8:25

tremendously, but it's still deeply

8:27

rooted in a gender,

8:31

you know, binary and a gender

8:33

caste system. So witnessing

8:35

a lot of the people I loved, my mother,

8:38

my grandmother, and

8:39

all females, it was already kind of planted

8:41

in me that there's this thing known as injustice

8:44

and inequity, and

8:46

there's this entitlement that comes with

8:48

people's identities. And I think for me, then integrating

8:51

to the US and

8:54

experiencing it, you know, firsthand,

8:56

as an immigrant, as,

8:58

you know, person of color, as a gay person,

9:02

for no other reason than just being

9:05

kind of pretty picked my curiosity

9:07

around, why are we doing this to each other? What's going

9:09

on with us human beings that, you

9:11

know, wherever we go, we find some reason

9:14

to, you know, one up one another

9:16

and, you know, beat on each other, where

9:19

there's so many other paths for us to really

9:22

be with one another to truly unleash

9:24

one another's full potential.

9:27

And also like lived

9:29

in a way that's more heart centered and feels

9:31

more connected. So that's a

9:34

short answer. That's great.

9:37

So you know, we talk about suffering, we talk about

9:39

what limits us and what else is

9:41

back certainly living in the in

9:43

the idea of each other, as you've

9:45

said, but we don't really see each

9:48

other would be major

9:50

cause of such suffering and inhibition.

9:53

So we see the idea of each

9:55

other. That's our unconscious bias

9:57

at work. So how do we only

10:00

see the idea of each other and how does it

10:03

cause so much suffering? Yeah,

10:05

I mean, you're the Buddhist

10:07

teacher so you know this so well,

10:09

you know, when you think about Buddhist

10:12

psychology, you know, this idea of,

10:14

you

10:15

know, these sankaras, these

10:17

mental concepts, these mental formations that

10:19

we have. And for most of my

10:21

childhood, as I was growing up in the US,

10:23

you know, I stayed in the US after immigrating here, and

10:25

just

10:26

kind of quietly suffered

10:29

and kind of was really led

10:31

by my head and rationed

10:34

rationale and trying to reason

10:36

out and use logic for every aspect

10:40

of injustices I

10:42

experienced or I saw

10:43

in the world around me. And

10:46

I remember in 2004, when I went back to India

10:48

for the first time, I was really

10:50

lucky to have traveled across the

10:52

region of Madak, which is very

10:55

Buddhist.

10:56

And not only did

10:58

I travel, I know because

11:01

of somehow

11:03

my uncle was like, Hey, do you want to just go to all these

11:05

really remote monasteries? And you know, I know

11:07

a bunch of people that can just take you around and,

11:10

you know, at the age of 18, just being

11:12

there, being in the stillness

11:14

of these monasteries that are really, you

11:17

know, I can put shooting out of mountains,

11:20

I don't know how we got there and how these

11:22

incredible drivers took us to these places

11:24

and really

11:25

feeling that stillness of a lot

11:27

of the people that were living there, who have

11:31

experienced a lot of harm, you

11:33

know, Tibetans fleeing

11:35

persecution,

11:35

again,

11:37

another mental

11:39

concept, right around political ideology

11:42

and ethnicity.

11:43

And yet they're thriving. And

11:46

that's where this idea of loving kindness was

11:48

where it was first planted, but

11:50

it didn't really germinate, I didn't think very much

11:52

of it.

11:54

And I did though,

11:56

start to meditate after that,

11:59

you know, as a practice to really,

12:01

but really in a way to improve

12:03

myself, like improve my performance

12:06

and, you know, kind

12:08

of become this kind

12:11

of get on this achievement ladder to succeed,

12:14

as it was socially defined. And

12:16

I think for me, this idea of not

12:19

seeing myself for who I was really came

12:21

to head.

12:22

When, as you shared, I was

12:24

tempted my life, I was on the ledge of my 18th

12:27

row window about to jump off. And,

12:29

you know, that moment for the

12:31

first time, I saw that all of these

12:33

ideas, these concepts,

12:35

these memories that were torturing

12:38

me were just thoughts.

12:41

Easy said then done. But I think in that moment

12:43

of clarity before you're doing something, we

12:45

could have about to do something that's like unconscionable

12:47

and thinkable.

12:49

I think the mindfulness practice that had been

12:52

that very part of me for, you know,

12:54

several years prior really came to a head and was like, wait,

12:57

these are just ideas. They're not who I am.

12:59

But I

13:02

listened to these ideas. And

13:05

I believed these ideas

13:07

to the extent that I was about to commit. What's

13:09

one of the most horrific acts I could commit

13:11

to myself. And

13:13

that's where I began to see that, oh,

13:16

this is what's happening in our society. You

13:19

know, I was at the time I was in law school. And,

13:21

you know, for me, it

13:23

was really difficult place to be because even though

13:27

I went to law school, a lot of other people go to law

13:29

school to, you know, really

13:31

enact justice to create a better

13:33

society, a more just and an equal society

13:37

to and yet we're

13:39

not really trained to do that.

13:42

What we're really trained to do is how can we

13:44

use the existing systems to

13:47

enable that. It's very

13:49

like nitty-gritties, you know,

13:52

very much in our heads, but not

13:54

to question why are things the way they are. What

13:57

was the rationale for a country like this?

13:59

the United States or South Africa to create

14:02

an apartheid,

14:03

to separate human beings for no other reason

14:05

than their skin color.

14:07

How could the Nazis justify,

14:09

legally justify

14:12

the Holocaust, Jewish

14:14

people, the Roma people and others? And

14:16

this is all mandated by law.

14:18

And this is where I feel like for

14:20

me, bias really came to head. It

14:22

was like, wow, these are these ideas, these mental

14:24

concepts that people are believing.

14:27

And now we live in a society where

14:30

it's no longer conscious. It is conscious for

14:32

many people, but for the vast majority of us,

14:34

it's not. We have anti-discrimination

14:36

policies on the books. We have anti-harassment

14:38

policies on the books. And

14:40

yet we have me too.

14:42

And yet we have a movement for Black lives

14:45

and we see

14:46

how systematic torture

14:49

of Black people takes place across

14:51

our country.

14:53

What's going on there?

14:55

Not only that, it's sometimes Black

14:57

people doing that to other Black people. What's

15:00

going on there?

15:01

This is the nature of unconscious

15:03

bias,

15:04

which for me is

15:06

conscious bias is really learned habits,

15:09

sorry, learned beliefs.

15:10

So we've learned these false beliefs about one

15:12

another better than, worse than.

15:15

For me, I saw that growing up around women

15:17

in India for sure.

15:19

But unconscious biases are really these learned

15:21

habits of thoughts. And

15:24

it makes us contract towards ourselves

15:28

as well as towards one another. And

15:31

for me, I think one

15:35

of the biggest examples that I can think of around this

15:37

is it took me a very long time to come

15:39

out. I'm a gay person, and

15:42

I was aware of that. I was aware that

15:44

I was gay, but I

15:46

couldn't accept myself for that. So

15:51

I was denying this part

15:53

of who I am for

15:55

most of my life.

15:57

And that's really interesting. I can't

15:59

do that. for myself, if I can't see and

16:01

accept myself for who I am,

16:05

how can I do that for others? So

16:08

it really kind of becomes, the

16:10

personal becomes a political, the political becomes

16:12

a personal, and it's also interdependent

16:15

and interconnected.

16:16

For me, it really starts in the mind.

16:21

You and the Buddha both, you agree? Really? Which

16:23

is why I've been on so many retreats

16:25

with you and many others, because

16:32

that's what I wanted to learn. It was like, wow,

16:34

how did I get trained in this? How

16:37

do I train myself?

16:39

Well, it's fascinating because on some level,

16:42

I think it's a little bit simple, and

16:44

on other levels, it's so complex.

16:47

I've often just wondered,

16:50

how have we come to evolve so that

16:53

it's so difficult to believe that actions

16:55

have consequences? That

16:58

we do something or we say something and we think it just

17:00

disappears. It doesn't matter. It doesn't

17:02

matter in many ways. It doesn't matter because it's not

17:04

enough to elicit

17:08

immediate change, or it doesn't matter

17:10

because who cares if I hurt somebody. That's

17:14

really bizarre because actions do

17:16

have consequences. The other thing

17:18

we're not trained for and another thing we're not trained

17:20

for is looking for causes and conditions,

17:24

looking more deeply into systems, for

17:26

example, so that our

17:29

good heartedness is more than

17:31

just a single act of helping

17:34

someone get a meal or a place

17:37

to sleep for the night, which is all important.

17:40

But we look

17:40

more deeply, we're not necessarily trained for

17:42

that either. So

17:45

we don't maybe grow

17:47

up, most of us don't grow up

17:49

in a way so that we have a lens

17:52

on really seeing ourselves clearly, seeing others

17:54

clearly, seeing the nature of connection

17:57

clearly, or seeing systems clearly. Exactly.

18:00

So everything is really going to

18:03

change if we can pay more attention and

18:05

be more aware.

18:07

Absolutely. And I think for me, that day

18:11

in 2009,

18:12

that's where my journey really began.

18:14

It began with this beautiful thing that you just shared.

18:17

What I was experiencing was a

18:19

consequence. It was a result. And

18:23

what I wanted to understand were the causes and the conditions

18:26

that led me to that ledge. And

18:29

the deeper I got, the deeper I saw that, oh

18:31

my gosh, I'm not alone. This whole

18:34

time, this is this other fabrication that

18:36

I had in my mind that I was the only

18:38

person. You know, woe is me. And

18:41

then the more I talked to other folks

18:43

and the more I learned about other people's

18:45

stories, I was like, oh my gosh, we're all suffering

18:48

in this human soup together. But

18:51

it's because of the same causes and the

18:53

same condition. Yeah. That's

18:56

really true. You said that we're not born with

18:59

our ideas of other people, our prejudices,

19:02

all the ideas that lead to all the isms, but

19:04

we are born with unconscious bias.

19:06

And you talk a little bit about the neuroscience of

19:08

that and why our brains work the way they

19:11

do around bias. Yeah.

19:13

So it's interesting, right? So we're

19:15

born with these unconscious habits,

19:18

to protect ourselves. So

19:20

for example, there is this instinctual

19:23

survival brain that we have that can

19:25

differentiate between, let's say,

19:27

a wild animal and a cute little

19:29

puppy, that can differentiate between that.

19:31

So we're really kind of wired for that.

19:34

However, we are not wired

19:36

to think that somehow rich

19:39

people are more worthy and poor people

19:41

are lazy. Or somehow

19:43

men are better than women or dark skinned people

19:45

are

19:46

less beautiful than light-skinned

19:48

people. Those habits towards

19:51

different types of human beings, those are

19:53

learned.

19:54

And for me, that's the beauty

19:56

of this work around breaking bias because

19:59

the

19:59

bias majority of biases that we

20:01

experience. I mean, my work is very much

20:04

in the workplaces, so thinking about working with

20:06

doctors, we're seeing patients or lawyers,

20:08

ever serving clients, teachers in their

20:10

classrooms.

20:12

I don't think that there are many teachers

20:14

that wake up in the morning being like, today, I'm

20:16

going to be the worst teacher in the world and as biased

20:18

as possible, or a doctor or a nurse

20:21

going to the hospital being like, I'm going to

20:23

be as biased as possible today. That's

20:25

not the intention with which most

20:27

people go into these noble professions.

20:30

And yet unconscious bias is really what's

20:32

getting in the way. And

20:34

for them, it's not that they were born

20:36

to think that somehow black

20:38

people can withstand

20:40

more pain than lighter skinned people.

20:43

Those mental habits have been learned

20:45

over time.

20:46

That's because of those causes and conditions.

20:49

And the

20:51

good news for me has been through

20:54

this quest of research and others

20:56

like,

20:57

hey, just as these things have been learned,

20:59

we cannot learn them.

21:00

There is this thing known as neuroplasticity

21:03

and

21:04

our ability to really

21:06

rewire our brain. And

21:07

I feel like, what better

21:09

example than myself?

21:12

I'm like, wow, sometimes I think about

21:15

myself 15 years and years ago. I

21:17

was a really angry, not

21:20

a nice person.

21:21

I wouldn't want to hang out with Sharon Salzburg

21:24

because I feel like, oh, she's too much of an apie

21:26

for me. Or this judgmental

21:28

mind would be all over the map.

21:31

And yet, that's

21:33

kind of a power of transformation that's

21:36

possible in our mind. And

21:38

I think this is what gives us hope, right? These

21:41

unconscious biases in particular, while

21:44

we have them to protect us,

21:47

we can totally transform them.

21:50

There's something so delicate

21:53

about

21:54

facing one's own suffering

21:56

because it can clearly,

21:58

like in your case, be the vehicle. for transformation,

22:02

you know, or it

22:04

can be like quicksand, you

22:07

know, and just like pull us in and we don't, it

22:09

defines us, we don't

22:12

get even a glimpse of a bigger

22:14

context or a bigger world

22:16

which can contain it or our own

22:19

inner strengths which actually can respond

22:22

differently. And yet, you

22:24

know, not being aware of our own suffering

22:26

means we're, we're just lost in space,

22:29

you know, and we don't necessarily

22:31

have the building blocks for empathy or compassion

22:34

for others. And so there's something so

22:37

important about being able to be in touch

22:40

with our own pain and part of it I

22:42

think is seeing pain as pain,

22:44

you know, like if you were seeing your anger as

22:46

you described it or

22:49

fear, you know, say in my case would be more predominantly

22:52

fear, it's so easy

22:54

to disparage yourself and feel like you're

22:57

weak or you're bad or you're

22:59

not meeting expectations or something instead

23:02

of kind of just holding

23:04

it and saying this is a really painful state.

23:07

Now what am I going to do about it? Yeah,

23:10

I mean, and this is something I've learned

23:13

from you because, you know,

23:15

I remember going on retreats with you, the matter of retreats,

23:17

the forgiveness retreats and, you

23:19

know, the quicksand,

23:21

the quicksand of our own suffering,

23:24

that tunnel vision, that's where

23:26

I was for the first couple of years

23:28

once I started really deeply committing myself

23:30

to a mindfulness practice.

23:33

And yet what took me out of the quicksand

23:36

is the other half of the path, you know, mindfulness

23:38

is just half of the, if that,

23:40

right? The other half that's

23:43

just as important, if not more important is

23:45

kindness, it's loving kindness, it's compassion.

23:48

It's these pro-social behaviors,

23:50

you know, these heart practices

23:52

that really, you know,

23:54

enable the mind to

23:56

remain sharp

23:58

and then shift that energy.

24:00

to kind of be able to relate to others,

24:03

to feel more connected to others and get

24:05

out of this basically of delusion

24:07

that we're all alone. You know,

24:09

like everything about even the

24:12

fact that we're connecting right now is interdependent

24:14

on so many causes and conditions, you

24:17

know, from the tech people that built the

24:19

technology to the people

24:21

that enable that technology and brought

24:23

it to us so we can communicate in

24:26

this way and folks can listen

24:28

to this talk. So yeah,

24:30

it just feels like kindness

24:32

really brings all of that living together.

24:34

Well, it seems like

24:36

such an important healing force

24:39

as we see everything, you

24:41

know, within ourselves and there is everything within

24:43

ourselves. Yeah. And from the most glorious

24:46

sublime states to the

24:48

most kind of thorny difficult states.

24:51

And

24:53

believe me, I've been, I've seen a lot of those. I

24:56

can't believe anything. And

24:59

so has probably everyone. Yeah. This

25:02

is part of being in our human bodies,

25:04

in hearts and minds.

25:07

Yeah. And

25:08

so there's something ennobling also, I think

25:10

when we realize some of the suffering itself

25:12

is the point by any means, but

25:16

we can metabolize it in a certain way. And

25:19

it's toward the end of greater compassion

25:22

for ourselves as well as for others. It's

25:25

really important. I agree. Totally

25:27

agree. So

25:31

you also referred earlier to what

25:33

is one of the most contracting elements of all,

25:36

which is the sense of isolation. It's

25:38

just me. No one

25:40

else goes through anything like this. It's

25:42

just me. I also want to make

25:45

a point that comes up a lot,

25:47

you know, in teaching

25:50

meditation, which is people fearing

25:52

that if they were to focus

25:54

on like inner resource and inner strength

25:56

to

25:58

meet things differently, to be kind.

25:59

that that would mean not

26:02

trying to do anything about changing

26:05

external conditions, that it

26:07

all ends all of our efforts. And so that's

26:10

partly what makes people kind of squirm

26:12

like, ah, you know, then

26:14

you're going to allow this just to go on and

26:16

on and on and not at least try to make

26:19

a difference. And it's not that way at all. I agree.

26:22

No, I absolutely agree. And

26:24

I feel like that's actually a state of delusion

26:26

to think that anything

26:29

and everything is static,

26:31

that each one of us are permanent,

26:34

that we don't evolve, that we don't change.

26:36

And for

26:37

me, that's been my biggest learning. You

26:39

know, some of the most cruel people that

26:41

I have experienced in my

26:44

life are also possibly,

26:46

they can change and they have changed.

26:49

Right. So that possibility of transformation

26:51

is there for each and

26:53

every single one of us. And holding

26:55

that possibility is what's difficult

26:58

because then we have to be in the gray

27:00

and the complexity of what it means to be human,

27:02

to give

27:05

grace to one another, to give grace

27:07

to ourselves. You know, like there's so much

27:09

shame, so much perfectionism that

27:12

we've also, it's

27:13

been conditioned in us, right? We aren't

27:15

trained in kindness and compassion in our

27:18

schools. Rather, we're trained to compete.

27:21

We're trained to be better than others. Right. So that

27:23

comparing mind is, you

27:25

know, really, this is against the stream

27:27

for us to do these practices of meditation

27:29

and mindfulness and compassion. And

27:33

when we get used to them,

27:35

when we're actually, I mean, at least for me, I'll just speak

27:37

for myself, you know, when

27:40

I'm sitting on the cushion and just

27:43

practicing,

27:44

and in the practice of it, in

27:46

the habits of it, I realize that

27:49

that is the fodder that's needed for

27:52

transformation, because

27:53

that's the fuel that allows

27:55

me to see things

27:57

where they are unskillful and whole.

28:00

some incorrect faults and

28:02

to then respond to it in a way

28:05

that would enable other people to

28:08

join and see that

28:10

versus be reactive.

28:12

Because what I've seen, particularly in the field that I work

28:14

in, which is it's

28:16

human rights. That's

28:18

how I started the work that was called DEI

28:21

or diversity, equity, and inclusion. Within

28:23

that,

28:23

I work in the space of breaking bias

28:26

and

28:26

there's a lot of shame. There's

28:29

so much shame. No

28:31

shame of being wrong, doing

28:34

wrong, and shaming

28:36

one another. For me, as

28:38

someone who studies

28:41

human behavior and how do we

28:43

create behavior change, shame

28:46

is incredibly afflictive because

28:49

it contracts us and we want to run away. We

28:51

don't want to fiddle that. Yeah.

28:55

I'm so glad you brought up shame because it took

28:58

me a while to understand the vocabulary

29:01

of current Western psychological

29:03

thinking and the Buddhist psychology as

29:05

you know so well. The

29:08

distinction is sometimes made between remorse

29:11

and guilt. Remorse being

29:13

a painful state, no doubt, but

29:16

something that's kind of onward leading. We

29:19

see things in another light. We

29:21

understand we

29:23

hurt somebody or said that thing,

29:25

whatever it is, because we were overcome.

29:28

We had no perspective on what

29:31

we were feeling. We didn't see a thought

29:33

as just a thought. It was

29:35

dominating us or we were afraid or

29:37

something like that. We feel the pain

29:39

of having done that, of having broken

29:42

harmony in some way, but we

29:44

in essence can forgive ourselves, remember

29:46

change is possible, determined

29:48

to go on to the best of our ability not

29:51

to just do it again and again, maybe make

29:53

amends or whatever.

29:55

But it is onward leading whereas guilt

29:57

is just a kind of lacerating self-hatred.

30:00

where we just go over and over and

30:02

over and over the thing we did or the thing we said

30:05

or didn't say or do.

30:07

We don't have that kind of bigger

30:09

perspective. We're just stuck. It's

30:12

not onward leading. It's just exhausting

30:14

and

30:15

devastating. It's not skillful

30:17

or helpful. Then

30:20

when I was reading

30:22

more about shame in Western contexts,

30:25

they used words that are very different. Guilt

30:27

is a good thing in

30:29

that it's recognizing

30:32

an act or refraining

30:34

from acting was harmful.

30:37

It's very specific. It's pointed toward

30:40

a thing of verbal or

30:42

physical action. It

30:49

has those same elements of like, oh,

30:51

lessons learned. Let me go on and try

30:53

to be different. Shame

30:55

is a more global condemnation instead

30:57

of I did wrong. It's

30:59

like I am wrong. I am bad. Exactly.

31:03

Very much without that sense you were talking about, that

31:05

spark of possibility. I

31:07

got more into that vocabulary and trying

31:10

to understand it

31:11

in that way. It's the same dynamic. We

31:14

feel pain when we recollect these things. There's

31:16

a way of feeling the pain that's actually kind

31:18

of helpful and there's a way of feeling the

31:20

pain that's just stuck. Shame

31:23

maybe more than anything keeps us from being

31:25

able to move on.

31:27

I feel like that is something we

31:29

experience at an individual level.

31:32

The shame,

31:34

but also within our families, within

31:36

our communities, within our workplaces and

31:38

the societies we're living in. We're really living.

31:41

There's an Irish proverb

31:44

that says, the

31:46

thing about the past is that it's not the past

31:48

because it's still living.

31:50

We're so identified with it. We can't

31:52

let it go.

31:54

That's what shame does. For

31:56

me,

31:56

that was kind of the big aha moment.

31:59

all the research that I've done, particularly around

32:01

this work is that it is shame.

32:03

The nature

32:06

with which we're doing the work, the energy with

32:08

which we're doing the work, we're really

32:10

hitting people on the head, making them feel

32:12

bad

32:13

about who they fundamentally are because

32:16

of their race, because of their identity, whatever

32:18

form, gender, sexual orientation,

32:20

ability, you name it.

32:22

And that is not skillful.

32:25

Because every human being feels

32:27

this

32:28

thing known as shame, and it's really gross.

32:30

It's not something that's pleasant.

32:33

And it's actually something we don't want to touch.

32:36

And this makes us run away. It

32:38

gets offensive up and it prevents us

32:40

from actually

32:41

shifting and changing our behavior. And

32:44

the more I think about Dr.

32:46

King, for example, one of the

32:48

things he had said before he was sadly assassinated,

32:50

was that our goal is to build a beloved community

32:53

and that's going to require

32:54

qualitative shifts in our hearts and

32:57

quantitative shifts in our lives.

32:59

So he's basically speaking about that, right?

33:02

He's not speaking about changing the

33:04

intricacies of

33:06

policies that's necessary, because we have

33:09

done that. But it's about those qualitative

33:11

and quantitative shifts within our hearts and our

33:13

lives,

33:14

how we see ourselves and one another.

33:17

And for me, that's

33:19

where the possibilities really lie in this century

33:22

of transformation and true healing.

33:25

And

33:26

this dynamic of shame

33:29

and guilt. I've spent so much time

33:31

in it too, but

33:32

I really like the word remorse

33:35

more than guilt.

33:37

There's this beautiful author who I love,

33:39

and she's kind of a proponent of forgiveness.

33:42

And she's in her mid 90s now, and

33:44

she's one of the only survivors of the Holocaust

33:46

who's left. Dr. Edith Beger,

33:49

incredible.

33:51

And she speaks about remorse.

33:53

She speaks about forgiveness because

33:56

remorse lets us do Western psychology,

33:58

we'd call it guilt.

33:59

to acknowledge that I have done something wrong

34:03

and I want to make amends.

34:05

So I can forgive. But in order to make amends, I have

34:07

to first forgive myself

34:09

that

34:09

I did something wrong, acknowledge that I did

34:12

something wrong and then ask

34:14

for forgiveness. And if

34:16

I don't get it, that's OK, because I've already forgiven

34:18

myself

34:19

and I'm asking for forgiveness because it's not

34:21

forgiveness. It's not something that I can give

34:24

from

34:24

another person to myself.

34:26

But it's something I can do. So I feel like that's really

34:28

a nobeling.

34:29

And I feel

34:31

that's the type of transformation

34:34

I'd like to see in

34:37

our world and hopefully I will

34:39

be violating. You're

34:44

young enough. Let's

34:46

see. This is what I wrote in real

34:48

life about this. Shame keeps

34:51

us from being honest, but interconnectedness

34:53

and belonging combat shame. We

34:56

can connect to this by recognizing our own

34:58

shame and sharing it. Shame

35:00

grows in secrecy. So owning

35:02

our story and recognizing our humanness

35:05

can be healing.

35:07

I might have learned

35:10

it from you because I read the book. Who

35:12

knows? So interconnectedness

35:15

is an interesting word in this context. And the

35:18

idea of sharing, of just being open and

35:20

the kind of collective

35:22

help and healing we can give for

35:24

one another in hearing it,

35:27

you know, and being present throughout

35:29

it and not kind of crumbling like, oh,

35:32

really? It's

35:34

disgusting. You know, it's it's

35:37

it is an act of loving kindness. And when you speak

35:39

about Dr.

35:40

King and the and the beloved

35:42

community, it's interesting because

35:46

so many times people, if I quote

35:48

him in some way along

35:50

those lines and people will say to me, yeah, but look what happened

35:52

to him, you know, you got assassinated as though

35:54

there were cause and effect there.

35:56

You know, which I find really interesting

35:59

as though. Our belief

36:01

is that if Dr. King were hateful

36:04

and vengeful that he would have been safe.

36:07

Yeah. Isn't that interesting? And

36:09

the other interesting thing there is that, you know, we have such an

36:11

interesting relationship with death and

36:14

mortality as if like,

36:16

you know, I noticed maybe a Buddhist

36:19

in me or... Because

36:22

part of the journey for me, you

36:24

know, coming as someone who was so close

36:26

to death is

36:28

not to be scared of it, but actually

36:30

be so grateful for every day that I'm

36:32

living.

36:34

You know, because who knows what's going to happen,

36:36

you know, we've just coming out of a pandemic

36:38

and so many of us, including

36:41

myself, have lost close family members

36:43

and friends.

36:45

And so I feel like that it

36:47

just kind of reminds us that,

36:49

oh, there's like a bigger world

36:51

out there of priorities

36:53

and why live in contraction,

36:56

you know, if death

36:59

can come at any... Can knock our door any day,

37:02

you know. Yeah.

37:05

So you've developed training and worked with companies

37:08

and individuals to equip

37:10

them with the tools to see their own unconscious bias

37:12

and to meet it with mindfulness. And

37:14

I'm wondering about if you could talk something

37:17

about that work and

37:20

what makes you feel in the end that

37:24

it's been a worthwhile or meaningful

37:26

interaction. Yeah,

37:28

I mean, I think one thing I'll say is that

37:32

the work that I've been doing for the last 10 years is

37:34

really kind

37:35

of what I call the

37:38

work of really liberating us and our

37:40

minds from these mental concepts, these stereotypes,

37:44

and to really bring people together.

37:47

So based on the science, you

37:49

know, I never expected that I would create

37:52

a toolkit. It's called a Prism Toolkit.

37:54

I was pursuing my

37:56

study of

37:58

mindfulness, of compassion.

37:59

and for personal healing reasons completely.

38:03

And I was doing

38:05

social justice lawyering. I was

38:07

working on issues of racial equity and gender

38:09

equity,

38:10

more from a legal side.

38:12

But about 10 years ago, I started

38:15

seeing that the neuroscience is really clear that

38:18

these tools that I was practicing for

38:20

my personal healing

38:22

are actually supporting people, measureably

38:24

reduced bias, unconscious

38:27

bias, as well as conscious bias. These

38:30

tools are really helping people

38:33

come together, build more

38:35

social trust,

38:36

improve communication, improve

38:38

empathy across what they call intergroup

38:41

relations.

38:42

So I was like, well, there's something here.

38:45

Okay, so now that these scientists

38:47

have done these experiments, have demonstrated this,

38:49

why isn't

38:51

this something that we're bringing to the masses?

38:54

So I was very naive 10 years ago,

38:57

and I

38:58

literally vote to the scientists.

39:00

And got on a call, they were all

39:02

super kind, the inventors of

39:04

the implicit association test, and many,

39:06

many others.

39:07

And I was like, well, you've done this.

39:10

And as people were certain, 2003 and 2007, like

39:13

this is 2013, why

39:15

don't we have this in the world? It's like,

39:17

oh, we're scientists. We identify

39:20

and discover things. If

39:23

you wanna do something about it, you

39:25

do it, right? Because they've moved on.

39:28

Of course, they talk about their research and academic

39:30

conferences to make sure that

39:33

these topics stay relevant. And that's

39:35

where I was like, oh, wow. So there is

39:37

an opportunity to now really bring this to

39:39

the masses. So for

39:41

me, that's where I designed the Prism Toolkit, which

39:43

is really five tools that have each shown

39:46

to address bias.

39:48

Prism stands for perspective taking,

39:50

pro-social behavior, individuation,

39:53

stereotype replacement, and mindfulness.

39:56

And my work has really been now using

39:59

meditation.

39:59

as their vehicle to

40:02

bring these prism tools to companies

40:04

and complementing these meditation tools,

40:07

the prism toolkit

40:08

with education.

40:10

So where does bias come

40:12

from? What are these stereotypes? How do we

40:14

learn them? You'd

40:15

be surprised

40:18

Sharon, how many

40:21

people, like I don't want to just say doctors,

40:23

but it could be everyone with multiple

40:25

graduate degrees

40:28

who haven't been taught some

40:29

of the basic things about

40:31

our human identity. So

40:33

many of them believe that race is biological. Just

40:38

really silly things, many of them don't know

40:40

that, oh, it was just a fabrication that

40:43

some people came up with less than 200

40:45

years ago, 250 years ago. Some

40:48

dude who loved to collect skulls of human

40:50

beings around the world

40:52

had a superiority

40:54

complex, you know, one could imagine, created

40:57

the story and

40:58

then infected the human consciousness.

41:01

And we are still living that story.

41:04

Of course, that story has huge consequences,

41:06

right?

41:07

But that is a cause.

41:10

And the people that believe that cause are

41:12

now conditioning ourselves and others around

41:14

the superiority. And for me,

41:17

that was liberating. And

41:20

that's the work. It's really about

41:23

educating and truly training,

41:26

training, not in a lecture style.

41:28

But hey, let me hold your hand and let

41:30

me actually train you, like you've done for

41:32

me, for example, let's practice

41:35

meta. Let's actually learn

41:37

how to cultivate this feeling of loving

41:40

kindness. Okay, mind is going to

41:42

resist. Okay, let's do that.

41:44

So that's kind of where I feel we're

41:46

really headed. And I feel inspired

41:48

by, you know, a lot of social movements

41:51

of the past.

41:52

You know, I think about the civil rights movement in the

41:54

United States, for example,

41:56

and even the Indian independence struggle.

41:58

That's what our end. ancestors were doing,

42:00

they were training the nervous system. When

42:03

they were doing sit-ins, it's not just a bunch of people

42:06

who got in and were to do a sit-in. They

42:08

had to train their nervous system to

42:10

face pretty awful

42:12

things. And

42:13

for me, in our century,

42:16

of course, the external oppression is there,

42:19

and there is the oppression of our minds

42:22

and

42:22

our day-to-day relationships. This is where these

42:24

tools can be

42:26

quite useful. So

42:31

in that formulation, it

42:34

seems that mindfulness is of some kind.

42:36

It doesn't have to be through meditation,

42:38

but a real grounding in mindfulness

42:41

is key to the work of advancing racial

42:43

equity. Because

42:45

otherwise, we won't see our tendency to otherize

42:49

or deny belonging or whatever

42:51

it might be. Yeah,

42:55

absolutely. Because

42:57

for me, and being able to prise on,

43:00

it really is backwards. Mindfulness

43:02

is really the bedrock, the foundation,

43:05

because it's not just the listening

43:07

of thoughts or these mental ideas,

43:09

but

43:10

also all accompanying experiences

43:12

that we have in our bodies, from

43:14

our emotions to the

43:16

memories, to bodily sensations.

43:18

And again, we're really training

43:20

people and becoming more aware, becoming more

43:23

conscious, making the unconscious

43:25

conscious.

43:27

And then we're investigating,

43:29

what is this? Why am I believing these

43:32

thoughts? And then really letting go of

43:34

the unskillful.

43:36

And what I've found, in terms of the benefits

43:38

of this, is not just equity, we're not just advancing

43:40

equity. We're

43:41

really advancing well-being.

43:44

Because the

43:49

more luggage that we're just carrying around,

43:51

that's just burdening us, the more we

43:53

get rid of it, the freer we feel, the more light-hearted

43:57

we feel. And that has the

44:00

direct correlation with

44:02

also some of the more practical concerns

44:04

that individuals and organizations

44:05

have around costs,

44:08

around improvement performance and productivity

44:11

and collaboration and creativity, all

44:13

the things, right? But

44:15

it does require effort.

44:18

So it's not a pill that one can take.

44:22

It requires that effort piece. And

44:27

yeah. So I love the way they

44:29

use the word investigate, because there's

44:32

even just the ability and the willingness

44:35

to ask questions,

44:37

I think is an important skill. And it's

44:39

probably a learned skill for many

44:41

of us, you know, in the sense of not

44:43

maybe growing up in a family

44:45

or a religion, religious context

44:47

that allowed that very much. But

44:50

it seems really important because

44:52

listening to what came up in my mind

44:55

was

44:55

a memory of the time that

44:57

Joseph Goldstein and I traveled to South

44:59

Africa to teach.

45:01

And it was during the apartheid era.

45:04

So we actually saw it very directly. And

45:06

it was completely strange, you

45:09

know, in our eyes. But

45:11

somebody mentioned that I think

45:13

it was Japanese people, because it was a whole country

45:15

of

45:16

Japanese tourists and business

45:18

people, you know, who were there

45:20

working. They were honorary

45:22

whites. They think,

45:25

well, how's that happen? You know, like, it's

45:27

biologic, that makes no sense, does it? But

45:29

none of it makes sense. It's a construct,

45:32

it's a system. They got manufactured,

45:34

got created to someone's satisfaction,

45:38

you know, or advancement, they

45:40

think. And so to

45:43

be able to step back and say, you know, this thing which

45:45

I took is inevitable

45:48

or intrinsic

45:50

to life. Look at that, it's totally made

45:52

up, you know? It's totally made

45:54

up. And that's where the practice is

45:56

for me, you know. And when

45:58

I first realized this...

46:00

I'd be super in my head in those moments and

46:02

I'm sure there are

46:04

people that are listening and watching and be like, well,

46:06

yes, but you know, in those moments where I meet when I

46:08

meet to feel small because of my color or

46:10

my gender or whatever else, whatever

46:13

marginalized identity like for right now, so many LGBTQ

46:15

people, particularly trans people in our country and

46:19

the world even.

46:20

And for me, that's where

46:24

the power of these prison tools is so important

46:26

because we

46:28

don't need the external world

46:32

to tell us that we

46:34

are equal and we are just

46:37

as we are, not better or

46:40

worse,

46:41

and we can really celebrate that.

46:44

And that is a type of fierce courage

46:46

and compassion that

46:47

one can have for oneself. And that requires

46:50

practice because sometimes

46:53

even our mind succumbs to those narratives

46:56

and we feel like, oh, if only I were

46:58

this or that, if only I were white, then

47:00

it would just my world would be that.

47:02

And this is where we need our

47:04

own suffering and have the self-compassion

47:07

to really move through that.

47:09

And that's the work of consciousness

47:11

shift really, right? This is,

47:13

and for me, the

47:15

more I do this work around breaking bias, again,

47:18

not something I ever intended it as

47:20

like an introverted immigrant.

47:24

It was like a big nerd, science nerd.

47:28

And yet, here I am.

47:32

It's great. Could you go over the prism acronym

47:35

again?

47:36

Yes, absolutely. So I'll start the way

47:38

it's supposed to be. It actually starts with mindfulness, so

47:40

PRISM and for mindfulness. And

47:43

mindfulness is really, I mean,

47:44

as you know, and everyone else here knows that

47:46

it's really this act of noticing.

47:48

And when it comes to bias, really noticing our thoughts,

47:51

what's happening in our minds.

47:52

So it's really bringing intimacy to that.

47:55

And

47:55

then we kind of

47:56

move into a more directed mindfulness practice,

47:58

which is not a stereotype.

47:59

replacement. So when we notice

48:02

negative stereotypes in particular, and

48:05

there are no stereotypes that are positive,

48:07

even the model minority myth is a negative

48:09

stereotype because it prevents people

48:11

from seeing people for who they are. There's

48:14

this whole idea that, oh, well, they can

48:16

benefit from how people know, no,

48:18

it's not good or bad, because we're not seeing people for

48:20

who they are stereotypes are just negative.

48:23

But then we replace them with counter positive

48:26

examples. So in a

48:28

lab, for example, they would, you

48:30

know, show images of Dr. King,

48:32

or think of Dr. King, but it doesn't have

48:35

to be someone who's like, bigger

48:36

than the world, it could just be our friend, you

48:38

know, our black friend or

48:40

our trans sister or whomever, right when

48:43

these stereotypes arise, because we have learned

48:45

these habits, these stereotypes through our conditioning.

48:49

And then we moved into the duration, which is

48:51

really kind of again, it's, it's

48:53

kind of a bridge between the head and heart processes,

48:56

because it's about curiosity,

48:58

what you said this ability to ask questions.

49:01

So individuation is really then individuating

49:05

with people as we are with them,

49:07

not the ideas of them. So if I'm with Sharon,

49:10

I'm with Sharon, not who I think

49:12

meditation teachers are supposed to be, right?

49:15

Because behind all the titles, she's

49:17

also this human being.

49:19

And then we moved to pro social

49:21

behaviors, which are, you

49:23

know, I would say some of the Brahma Baha'i practices,

49:25

but particularly

49:27

practices of compassion, kindness,

49:30

joy, and forgiveness.

49:32

Those are the four that

49:33

I think are very paramount. Then

49:35

lastly, moving to

49:37

perspective taking, which is about imagination.

49:40

So it's really about breaking all the boxes altogether.

49:43

And being

49:43

able to imagine what it's like

49:46

to be in someone else's shoes,

49:48

not how I would want to be in their shoes.

49:50

But given the causes and conditions

49:52

of their life, what it's like

49:55

to be in their shoes,

49:56

which is a really radical way of

49:58

doing things. And

49:59

And it's something

50:01

the entertainment industry does all the time.

50:03

This is what great actors do all the time.

50:06

So I'm like, wait, we're

50:09

all doing this all the time anyway because all of

50:11

us are acting in theater in some

50:13

shape or form. We have this capacity.

50:16

But again, it's

50:17

really mindfulness from the bottom up.

50:20

It

50:20

feeds it together. And even for the heart

50:22

practices, compassion and kindness

50:24

and love,

50:26

mindfulness is really important

50:28

because it brings our attention and directs

50:31

our attention. So

50:33

it's kind of

50:35

the power of mindfulness can be understated. But

50:38

then

50:39

compassion is kind of the really healing

50:41

bomb

50:42

that enables transformation.

50:45

So great. Thank you

50:47

for your great work, really. Oh,

50:49

thank you. Thank you. You're such a big part of it.

50:54

So before we end our time together, would you

50:56

lead us in a short practice so we can just celebrate

50:58

it further? Yes. Absolutely.

51:00

So I would love to share this practice

51:03

that actually this is something I

51:05

came up with for our practice today

51:07

as I was prepping for

51:09

this session.

51:11

So I'm

51:12

just going to invite everyone to

51:14

just come to a comfortable seated position

51:16

wherever you are.

51:18

You could rest your feet on the ground

51:20

below you,

51:21

your hands on your lap

51:23

or on your knees.

51:26

And if it's comfortable, ring

51:28

your eyes to a gentle close.

51:31

Replace

51:31

your gaze at a stationary point in front

51:33

of you.

51:37

For

51:37

the first few moments,

51:39

just letting go of any

51:42

thoughts, any idea, any

51:47

memories,

51:50

and just returning in words,

51:52

feeling that sense of

51:55

release and surrender in

51:57

the body.

52:01

Using your awareness, this

52:03

power of attention to

52:07

let go of any tension, any

52:10

contraction that may be present in

52:15

any part of the body, from

52:20

the top of your head to

52:23

the bottom of your feet, perhaps

52:29

your jaw,

52:31

your tongue,

52:34

let go, your

52:37

shoulders, your

52:41

hands, let

52:45

go.

52:52

And as you feel

52:56

this process of surrendering, letting

52:59

go,

53:02

offer peace, offer

53:06

kindness

53:09

to these parts of yourself,

53:15

the

53:15

parts of your face,

53:19

your eyes, your nose,

53:25

your chin, peace,

53:32

your chest, your

53:36

arms,

53:40

your belly,

53:43

peace,

53:48

your legs. And

53:55

all parts of your being, peace,

53:57

really offer kindness.

54:00

offering peace as a practice,

54:05

as you let go and take

54:10

that extra step of offering peace.

54:16

And if the mind gets distracted, notice

54:21

what it's doing. Perhaps there's thinking,

54:23

planning, or

54:26

even judging. It's

54:30

okay.

54:31

There's judgment there.

54:34

Judgment of this practice, of me,

54:36

of yourself.

54:39

We make that

54:40

the object of our attention

54:43

and offer that peace,

54:48

bringing vigor, bringing

54:51

vitality to

54:55

this peace offer within

55:06

peace, peace,

55:11

with vigor, as

55:16

known as virya in

55:20

the Pali.

55:24

She's really about effort,

55:28

using mindfulness to

55:30

bring that vigor, this

55:35

practice of offering peace and

55:39

kindness.

55:45

Now extending that kindness to all parts

55:48

of your body,

55:53

extending that peace to all parts of your

55:55

body,

55:57

all parts of who you were and you're doing.

56:00

the past. Peace

56:05

to every part of you that is yet to come.

56:09

Peace. Every

56:16

memory, every

56:18

thought, every

56:23

success, every failure.

56:25

Peace.

56:34

Just letting go in the peace

56:37

of every part of your experience.

56:43

And then slowly extending this

56:53

peace

56:57

to everyone, everything,

57:00

every being in all direction,

57:02

without conditions,

57:11

without

57:15

exceptions.

57:19

Peace. Just

57:28

feeling of

57:33

oneness, you

57:36

know, connection, you

57:38

know, your dependence. This

57:42

stems from the

57:46

magic word love. This

57:51

is a practice of love, of

57:55

letting go, offering

57:58

peace. bringing

58:00

vigor and

58:03

extending it to every part and every one,

58:07

everywhere without exception.

58:19

So let's just rest in

58:23

this experience of love for

58:26

a few moments. I'll

58:31

be quiet for a few moments. We

59:02

are all beings everywhere. Be free from suffering

59:04

and all the causes of suffering.

59:12

And after your next exhale, you can bring your chin to your chest

59:15

and if your eyes will close, you can open them and

59:18

slowly come back

59:19

to our space together.

59:24

So welcome back everyone and thank you so much for

59:26

your practice. Thank you so much.

59:29

Really is very beautiful

59:31

and thank you so much for joining me today. Thank

59:35

you so much for having me. It's

59:37

great to see you and it's such

59:39

a pleasure to be in conversation with you and learn.

59:42

You know, I learned so much all the time. It's great.

59:45

So to learn more about his

59:47

work, visit the more with Anu. It's

59:50

B E M O R E W I T

59:52

H A N U dot com. Thank

59:54

you.

59:56

Thank you. Thank you.

1:00:05

Hey folks, thanks for listening. To

1:00:09

learn more about Sharon's many

1:00:11

different offerings, her courses, virtual

1:00:14

classes, or to get a copy

1:00:17

of Real Life, you can visit

1:00:19

SharonSaulsburg.com.

1:00:23

This has been the Real

1:00:24

Life series on the Metta Hour

1:00:26

podcast,

1:00:28

brought to you by the Be Here Now Network.

1:00:32

May you be safe, may you be happy,

1:00:34

may you be healthy, and may

1:00:37

you live with ease. Teaching

1:00:52

meditation can be a deeply rewarding experience.

1:00:55

Help others improve their mental and emotional well-being,

1:00:58

reduce stress, improve focus, increase

1:01:01

self-awareness and self-regulation,

1:01:03

all while deepening your own practice and understanding.

1:01:07

Join Buddhist teacher David Nicktern and special

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guest Professor Robert Thurman for a free

1:01:11

online program on Tuesday,

1:01:14

June 6th at 6 p.m. Eastern

1:01:16

Time. They'll discuss the role of the meditation

1:01:18

teacher and Dharma Moon's renowned

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Get certified by Dharma Moon and Tibet House

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slash Be Here Now for more info

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and to reserve your spot for the free info

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Ram Dass always encouraged the gathering of

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1:01:51

Join us at our Summer Mountain Retreat in

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This year's theme is cultivating living presence

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and making peace with others.

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our shadow. You'll experience

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nightly kirtan with Krishnadas, daily

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dharma talks with Lama Sultram, Dr.

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and Nina Rao, as well as daily

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with our community this August 24th through

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28th. Visit Ramdas.org

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